text:
Talk:The Perks of Being a Wallflower

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nswadhwa, Sarahtrissel.

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Book censorship
There are many cases of this book being censored and banned in the United States due to sexual content and adult themes. I think we should add a section including these controversies and why the censors feel this book is inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahtrissel (talk • contribs) 17:11, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you

thx — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahtrissel (talk • contribs) 17:12, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA WRITING ASSIGNMENT 11/2: •	What are some reasons a content gap might arise? What are some ways to remedy them? A content gap can easily arise in wikipedia since there are many authors contributing to one topic. Also, people don't feel as though they need to complete all sections of a wikipedia page; they often only contribute certain facts or information so content is sometimes left out. Because of this, it is important to communicate on the Talk page and make sure all content is being covered. Also, content gaps can be avoided if everyone thoroughly reads each others' work and makes edits accordingly. •	Does it matter who writes Wikipedia? It matters in the sense that people should do research and fully understand the topic before adding information to Wikipedia. However, because anyone can edit the pages, information is almost always corrected because people who see wrong information feel the need to correct it. Sarahtrissel (talk) 02:31, 7 November 2016 (UTC)Sarah Trissel

Bibliography

Eric Vo, Record-Journal for the Associated Press. "Do I Want My Book Banned?”, “Perks of Being a Wallflower”, “Wallingford Book Controversy." NBC Connecticut. N.p., n.d. Web. 13 Nov. 2016.

"Perks of Being a Wallflower Banned After Parent Complains." American Booksellers Association. N.p., 02 Apr. 2015. Web. 13 Nov. 2016.

Staff, NCAC. "Florida School District Moves to Ban The Perks of Being a Wallflower." National Coalition Against Censorship. N.p., 07 July 2016. Web. 13 Nov. 2016.

Titus, Ron. "Marshall University Libraries." - Banned Book. N.p., 1 July 2016. Web. 13 Nov. 2016.

Abbamondi, Erin. "Georgetown University Library Journal Finder." Georgetown University Library Journal Finder. N.p., 28 Sept. 2015. Web. 13 Nov. 2016.

"A School District Bans ‘The Perks of Being a Wallflower’ After Parents Complain… but the Fight’s Not Over Yet." Friendly Atheist. Patheos, n.d. Web. 28 Nov. 2016.

"Pasco School Committee Votes to Ban Book after Several Parents Question It." WFLA. N.p., 23 May 2016. Web. 28 Nov. 2016.

The current Perks of Being a Wallflower Wikipedia page doesn't contain any information about the controversies surrounding it. I plan on adding specific cases on which the book was censored or banned and why this occurred. Additionally, I plan on adding to the plot a bit about the incident with his Aunt Helen because the current page doesn't really explain the details. I will use the sources I have found (cited above) in order to gather good information about the book and the controversy it has taken part in. Sarahtrissel (talk) 03:28, 14 November 2016 (UTC)Sarah Trissel

I want to work on making the section "Publication and reception" into two separate sections. Honestly don't know / care too much about the publication of the book, but I found a lot of really interesting content about how the book was received by communities and critics. The group conservative Christian group Focus on Family has a parents guide to the book, and it really delves in depth about what specifically in the book people can find offensive. I also found a couple of sources about the literary merit of reading books with "controversial" material, and also have arguments people have made for why the book should not be banned.

The page should include several controversies that have happened around the country / world. I found a bunch of interesting articles about a specific case that happened in Wallingford, CT, and would like to write about that for the page. Does anyone else want to add something about a case that they found interesting? If not, I can research and find some more.

FINAL DRAFT of what I intend on adding: Sarahtrissel (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2016 (UTC)sarahtrissel

UNDER CONTROVERSY AND CENSORSHIP (new section)

The “Perks of Being a Wallflower” was published in 1999. The book has been involved in controversies since its publication. The controversies have resulted in the book being banned at numerous schools throughout the nation ("Top Ten Most Frequently Challenged Books Lists"). The book has been on the top 10 banned books in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2013,2014 ("Top Ten Most Frequently Challenged Books Lists"). The common reasons for controversy throughout the cases include: sexual content, drug and alcohol content, and homosexuality. Florida-In May of 2016, in Dade City, Florida, The Perks of Being a Wallflower was banned from Pasco County Middle School after two parents complained about the book’s sexual content and drug and alcohol use. The Advanced English teacher asked her students to read the book and that is when two parents complained. Following the complaint, a committee was formed, comprised of parents, community members, and staff and they voted to ban the book and recommended the superintendent ban it throughout the district. (“Pasco School Committee Votes to Ban Book after Several Parents Question It”).The superintendent proceeded to remove the book from the school and tried to get the book banned district-wide. However, Terrie O’brien, a committee member, spoke up against banning the book throughout the district due to the precedent it would set: the banning of any book with any sexual content. Based on O’brien’s objection, the book was only banned at Pasco Middle School, not district-wide ("Florida School District Moves to Ban The Perks of Being a Wallflower"). Also in 2016, the Superintendent of a High School in Wallingford, Connecticut banned the book from 9th grade English curriculum due to parent Jean Pierre Bolat’s complaint. The parent complained about “homosexuality, date rape, masturbation, and glorification of alcohol use and drugs” ("Perks of Being a Wallflower Banned After Parent Complains"). In 2014, the book was banned from classrooms at Hadley Junior High School in Glen Ellyn, Illinois after being taught in 8th grade due to language and sexual content. However, the Glen Ellyn Elementary District 41 School Board brought the book back to the school library and overturned the previous banning but a parent letter had to be sent home at the beginning of the year notifying the parents of the content their kids would be exposed to in the classroom. ("Banned Books"). In 2012, in Clarkstown, New York, the book was challenged at North High School but not banned after a parent’s complaint about teenage sex, bestiality, and homosexuality ("Banned Books"). In 2003, in Fairfax, Virginia, a group called Parents Against Bad Books in Schools challenged Perks due to its drug abuse, torture, and sexual content ("Banned Books").

UNDER RECEPTION:

When Author Stephen Chbosky (link) wrote “The Perks of Being a Wallflower,” he did not anticipate the controversy that resulted. In an interview specifically responding to the Wallingford controversy, Chbosky explained that the date rape scene is violence, not sex, and he finds it disturbing that people think it is meant to arouse the reader ("Do I Want My Book Banned?"). Chbosky claims that, “the whole book is a blueprint for survival. It’s for people who have been through terrible things and need hope and support” (nbcconnecticut.com). He says that he is offended that people would take two pages of the whole book and put it out of context and say that the book has different intentions than the ones Chbosky clearly had ("Do I Want My Book Banned?"). Chbosky also comments on the act of banning his book and books in general. He explains that if someone objects to the content of the book or the book itself, they should be able to say that they don’t want their child reading it. However, Chbosky doesn’t think it’s okay for that parent to dictate what his child or other children read. Chbosky says that the novel is meant to “create dialogue” because he feels that the more these challenging, and sometimes disturbing, topics are discussed, the more people will understand the issues others face. Chbosky feels sad that the conversation which his book was meant to evoke is trying to be ended by people who fail to understand Chbosky’s purpose of writing the novel. ("Do I Want My Book Banned?"). Sarahtrissel (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2016 (UTC)sarahtrissel

Bibliography (MLA): "Banned Books: The Perks of Being a Wallflower." Marshall University Libraries. Marshall University, n.d. Web. 13 Nov. 2016. Vo, Eric. ""Do I Want My Book Banned? No," "Perks of Being a Wallflower" Author Says After Wallingford Book Controversy." NBC Connecticut. NBC, 12 Apr. 2015. Web. 13 Nov. 2016. Chbosky, Stephen. The Perks of Being a Wallflower. New York: Pocket, 1999. Print. "The Perks of Being a Wallflower | Book Review." The Perks of Being a Wallflower Book Review. Focus on Family, n.d. Web. 13 Nov. 2016. Luther Turmelle, New,Haven Register. "Banning Books Detrimental to Students, Wallingford Residents Told." New Haven Register (CT)Oct 06 2015. Web. "The Perks of Teaching 'Perks'." Record-Journal (Meriden, CT): D01. Aug 23 2015. Web. Vo, Eric. "Committee Returns 'Perks' to Curriculum." Record-Journal (Meriden, CT): A01. Apr 25 2015. Web. "A School District Bans ‘The Perks of Being a Wallflower’ After Parents Complain… but the Fight’s Not Over Yet." Friendly Atheist. Patheos, n.d. Web. 28 Nov. 2016. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nswadhwa (talk • contribs) 03:53, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

 * What they are calling "banning" and "censorship" seem to be disputes between teachers and other authorities over whether a teacher can assign a book, which is a different question.  Calling that "censorship" is just inflammatory.  Teachers aren't always right.  I remember in college a teacher assigning a (nonfiction) work which I found almost worthless.  It turned out that the book's author was a friend of the teacher and the assignment resulted in the author making money at students' expense. 2001:558:6011:1:E406:4A65:5CD1:785C (talk) 15:10, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Musical references in the book
Could you please read something before editing?! In this page we are talking about "Musical references IN THE BOOK"... Heroes by David Bowie is NOT a song mentioned in the book, it is a song they choose for the tunnel scene IN THE MOVIE, instead of the original one Landslide by Fleetwood Mac. Please stop adding Bowie every time we cancel him!! And so School's Out by Alice Cooper, Where Eagles Dare by Iron Maiden or Misfits, and Autumn Leaves by Nat King Cole (which is simply the name of the mix tape that "a boy" made for Charlie's sister). It's very easy to check: read the book or find it online, search for those singer/groups, and you will find... NOTHING!! Thank you very much

Minor correction, "Where Eagles Dare"
I notice the link to the Misfits song, "Where Eagles Dare" does not actually link to the album the song was released on but to a World War II movie. I just made my account so I'm unable to fix it myself but I assume someone else could. For convenience, here's the link to the album: | Night of the Living Dead (song) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrotherNikolai (talk • contribs) 02:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Fixed 26/01/2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.233.176 (talk) 11:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

poem hunter
Is the poemhunter site really that legit? I remember reading in the front of the book some professor that wrote 'absolutely nothing' and some other poems by that author cited in the article on the poem hunter page are accused of stealing work. (I hope that sentence was coherent or understandable) --208.71.222.219 (talk) 05:09, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I changed this after reading the comments on Poem hunter that said some of his poems were copied from others. I used the information for the beginning of Perks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taylert123 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The poem is not written by "Osoanon Nimuss" it was written by Dr. Earl Reum and it is called "a person, a paper, a promise". If you look in the credits of the book it mentions "a person, a paper, a promise remembered" by "Patrick Comeaux" (Patrick? Comeon.... as in "give me a break, this wasnt written by Patrick") In the *book* it mentions "Osoanon Nimuss" (Oh So Anonymous)... but its actually a sarcastic hint that the author of the book/poem is actually Charlie, not "Steven Chbosky" I know this for a fact, cause I know the actual author of the book and he said that "Steven Chbosky" is just some guy they hired to do public appearances for the book. Havabighed (talk) 07:09, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Reum wrote the poem. If Patrick Comeaux exists and he "misremembered" the poem, it is still not his poem. The authorship is still Reum's. There is an almost invariable attribution of authorship of this poem to Chbosky or a person Chbosky has invented on innumerable websites, book reviews, this Wikipedia article, and the general press ever since the novel was published, and this should be corrected. This poem should be clearly attributed in the Wikipedia article to Reum so that at least one major internet source is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.4.187.243 (talk) 07:27, 18 July 2012 (UTC) Sorry if this is not the best place to enter this comment. The final sentence under Plot Summary does not make sense. It appears that earlier text which would have explained it has been removed. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.7.144.169 (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Correction
From: wikipedia page on perks of being a wallflower: "The book also touches strongly on drug use and Charlie's experiences with this". What? Charlie smokes butts and weed once or twice, as well as drinks a little. I think this phrase should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.111.199 (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

 * He also took LSD, started buying Marijuana and using it regularly, as well as unknowingly taking 'Pot brownies,' I don't find this to be a strong use, but not a light one. JavaDog 13:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

At the beginning of the book, most of Charlie's drug use is unintentional, the two most obvious examples of this being pot brownie he unknowingly eats at the party with Patrick and the tab of acid someone slips him at the Halloween party. Nonetheless, towards the end, the book pretty much says that Charlie smokes like a chimney. His pot use also gets to a point where it isn't just social; he's buying large amounts of it with his own cash and even coming to school high.

Criticisms?
There has been a lot of criticisms of this book from parents trying to ban it to plainly book critics classifiying the book as "emo". Should a criticisms section be added?

I would say it would be unnecessary, unless there are some sources that support it and not just a book review either. Maybe some interviews or articles from somewhere. Plus, I wouldn't consider it that significant to add so much of a criticism, at least right now. Pigman5 02:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it might be helpful to add specific cases of censorship in schools, cases where the book was challenged, why the book was challenged, what the outcome was. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to break the section up into "Critical Reception" and "Controversy," provided there are enough cases to justify it. Ruesch97 (talk) 14:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Here are some citations on a case in Wallingford, Connecticut where the book was banned.

"Censorship Dateline." Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom 64.3 (2015): 89-71. Web.

Luther Turmelle, New,Haven Register. "Banning Books Detrimental to Students, Wallingford Residents Told." New Haven Register (CT)Oct 06 2015. Web.

Record, ERIC V. "Coming of Age Novel Focus of Wallingford School Review." Associated Press State Wire: Connecticut (CT)Apr 12 2015. Web.

Vo, Eric. "Committee Returns 'Perks' to Curriculum." Record-Journal (Meriden, CT): A01. Apr 25 2015. Web.

---. "A Consensus on Texts, but Still Criticism." Record-Journal (Meriden, CT): A01. Aug 20 2015. Web.

---. "Groups Come to Defense of Removed Book." Record-Journal (Meriden, CT): A01. Mar 20 2015. Web.Ruesch97 (talk) 03:29, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahtrissel (talk • contribs) 17:27, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Should there be more attention brought to the novel's treatment of sexuality, drug use, rape and mental health?Abair26 (talk) 00:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Charlie
It is definetlya´a book anyone can relate to. Charlie is a wallflower who observes people and feels very deeply for the experiences occuring around him. His favorite Aunt Helen died in a car accident when he was six, and he holds himself accountable, and his best friend committed suicide a year before he began the letters. His English teacher realizes Charlie's potential and brilliance and asks him to try and participate, which Charlie agrees to do. He becomes friends with two seniors Patrick and Samantha and begins to experience dances, parties, the Rocky Horror Picture Show, pot, love, bad trips and sexuality.

Charlie is the most peaceful and connected being I've ever known. I feel honored to have been introduced to him through reading this book. It's so wonderful that such a person that's so gratifying to know can be met by everyone, and is meant to be. Reading Charlie's letters is like befriending tha in your life you've been looking for.

The character list needs revising. Character lists are not meant to describe the plot of the story; they serve as a brief description of the characters. Knowing that Charlie has a sexual dream about Sam does not give any further information about Sam (she is already described as being beautiful). Other character summaries should be edited as well.

I believe Charlie was molested and it should be added to the wiki. I did a quick internet search and I'm not the only one who feels this way. http://qualvista.blogspot.com/2008/02/perks-of-being-wallflower-pt-1.html (last paragraph)

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080106110553AANSdRA (question and the second answer)

Also, on page 204 it says (which made me come to this conclusion) "My brother and my sister and I were watching television with my Aunt Helen. Everything was in slow motion. The sound was thick. And she was doing what Sam was doing." and on page 209 he says he knows his dreams were true and it happened every Saturday when they would watch TV. AdamWillis (talk) 13:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

He was obviously sexually abused in some way. He freaked out on Sam because she nearly, not even fully got sexual with him. Then he went to a mental hospital and discovered some repressed memories about his aunt Helen. This only means one thing psychologically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.179.27 (talk) 18:43, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

It sligtly frightens me, but i found myself thinking i have extremely similar feelings to charlie at the beginning of the book. i often panic and i agree with his opinion about a god even though i was never raised religiosly. i don't really understand religion, and i find myself associating words together in random ways like he does. i also get very frightened once in a while when i realize nothing feels like i am there, it only feels like a dream, another reason i often panic.

Category:Novels with a pedophile theme
Is this category really necessary?

what pedophilia is in this book? i can't remember. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roxysmashsir43 (talk • contribs).

 * it's subtle, but it's there. maybe you should reread the book.  it's mainly discussed toward the end.  in that way the category may be a bit of a spoiler. Sparsefarce 03:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Bill was not a pedophile! --66.214.200.130 14:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Aunt Helen was molested as a child, and towards the end it is revealed she molested Charlie.

also Sam was molested when she was 7 by her dads friend —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.20.122 (talk) 02:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Bill was not a petefile, that's true.

But it never said Charlies Aunt Helen molested him. Towards the end he comes close to having sex with Sam, but he starts to cry and Sam stops.

Are you blind?! Did you read this book? Days will chase 18:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

pedophile theme is definitely present guys, theres no debating that. there is a laundry list of symbolism as well as hints that charlie makes throughout the book, just read the book again with new eyes and you'll see more and more of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.98.119 (talk) 01:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

you guys to be honest, am starting to think that the reason you guys didnt or couldnt sympathize with charlie, was because you werent born alone in this sad cruel world. you probably had two loving figures that protected you from reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.17.159 (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? Besides, Charlie had decent parents, maybe not the most loving parents, but good parents nonetheless. And pray tell, what makes this world so sad and cruel? Your Ipod touch not working? A bad internet connection? Talk to the kids dying of HIV and starvation over in the middle east if you want to know how sad and cruel the world is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.245.151 (talk) 23:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

To stay a little more on topic, no this doesn't have a "pedophile" theme, it has a "child molestor" theme. There is a difference. --208.71.223.249 (talk) 17:12, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

are you guys kidding!!?? im 13 and i get that there is a child molesting theme of this book. it is very clear. charlie was molested but his aunt and his aunt did that to him because someone did it to her. charlie does not blame her and he compares it to children of a person who is a drunk. one might not ever drink, and the other may be a drunk too. Charlie is sad because that is how he is, but he has enourmous empathy and he knows how it is not his aunts fault. He is frightened when sam touches him because it reminds him of a memory he cannot place. he find later in a dream what his young mind had blocked from him because it was so frightening — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.228.124.38 (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

ALA claim
The American Library Association makes no claim that it is one of the most frequently banned: http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/challengedbanned/challengedbanned.htm#mfcb

Also, nothing is found when searching google that supports this claim.

maybe so, but its touching on a variety of controversial issues essentially guarantees its status as a frequently banned book.Quietmind 07:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)quietmind

The ALA List is official, meaning that if you can not find a book on the actual list then there is no one way it is one of the most frequently banned or challenged books. Also about the Pedophilia; the way I remember the book was Charlie and Sam begin to FUCK (it's suggested she begins to fondle his penis). Charlie appears very uncomfortable so Sam quits and Charlie leaves. He blacks out somewhere in the Park and has a flash back where his Aunt is touching him the same way Sam did while his Brother and Sister are watching SNL. Somehow he looses hair too, I don't remember if he cut it, pulled it out, or it just sort of fell out.

In the end it does state that Aunt Helen molested Charlie. Every night they watched SNL. reread the book, you fools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.131.84.36 (talk) 18:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

 * The ALA is an advocate of intellectual freedom in libraries in the United States; they research controversy surrounding books and compile their list from their findings. They can difficultly ascertain if a book is 'banned' or not, but they can make an assessment on whether they are highly challenged or not. AniRaptor2001 (talk) 03:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

 * It seems the book shows up on the ALA's challenged/banned lists fairly often.
 * #10 on Top 100 Banned/Challenged Books: 2000-2009.
 * September 9, 2008 Book banning alive and well in the U.S. mentions “The Perks of Being A Wallflower” as being one of the "10 Most Challenged Books of 2007".
 * Timeline entry for 2009: The Perks of Being a Wallflower "We’re more than halfway through Banned Books Week"
 * Lead mention in September 24, 2013 "Spotlight on a Banned Books Week Hero: students and teachers from Glen Ellyn, IL".
 * --Marc Kupper|talk 05:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Themes section: worthwhile?
As it stands now the themes section is a list supported by absolutely no expository writing and citing no roots in the text itself. It brings down the quality of this entire article and I would like to nominate this list for removal if others agree. MrSmith85 05:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The useful info from the section could potentially be absorbed into the "Background and Writing" section. Ruesch97 (talk) 14:43, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

It never said Charlie was from Penn.
It can't be proven he is from Penn.. It says quote: ''...I don't want you to find me. I didn't enclose a return address for that same reason.'' It does give a few small hints... and Stephen Chybosky was from Penn. But, there isn't a way to prove that.

______________________________________

He was from Pittsburgh, the Fort Pitt Tunnel was mentioned.

I remeber something about him mentioning the Steelers so another to hint that hes from pittsburgh?

Cleanup
I think the character list should either be cleaned up or gotten rid of all together. It reveals too many spoilers and is poorly written. Nakono 03:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Perksofbeingwallflower1.jpg
Image:Perksofbeingwallflower1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

How about a wiki that doesn't suck?
Don't you think that an article about The Perks of Being a Wallflower should include a little more than a list of other works referenced in the novel? Don't worry about spoilers. This is a Wiki, not an advertisement. Check out A Child Called It or The Catcher in the Rye pages for some good examples. I'll gladly start writing some new info for the page, but we need to start working up a list of topics to include. Some good examples would be a plot synopsis, a list of themes discussed in the novel, a discussion of the unique writing style, possible illnesses we can attribute to Charlie, etc. Bob Caveman - 4000 B.C. (talk) 07:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC) Sabrina

 * Sigh. Bob, no one is paid to write material for wiki. If you can contribute, please do so. But don't whine about that fact that no one else has done so, yet. AniRaptor2001 (talk) 03:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Plot summary?
Should the plot summary maybe be corrected? Someone has written the plot summary of the film which differs in a big way from the novel. For example: "After Sam doesn't do well on the SAT exam, Charlie helps her to retake the test and score higher so that she can apply to Penn State." -- Correct me if I'm wrong but that doesn't happen in the novel. Also the reference to pony-tail Derek" - that nickname wasn't used in the novel to my recollection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkennelly (talk • contribs) 04:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe the plot should also mention that this movie's moral was that, by beating people up with your fists during a blackout, you: 1. are no longer the underdog, 2. get back in touch with the girl you like, 3. save that girl's stepbrother, 4. get thanks from that stepbrother's boyfriend. --82.170.113.123 (talk) 20:18, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

The second paragraph talks about Charlie being a wallflower, but never defines what a wallflower actually is in the context of the novel. I can fix this by quoting the part of the book where Patrick and Sam tell Charlie that he's a wallflower. The section could also use some general fixing up regarding grammar Nswadhwa (talk) 17:36, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

The plot should include Charlie's struggles with his flashbacks from his Aunt sexually assaulting him, since that is a big part of the book. Also, there are grammar mistakes and no footnotes, so I plan on fixing those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahtrissel (talk • contribs) 17:16, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

In the sentence, "As Charlie engages with his new friends he can control his flashbacks of Aunt Helen", I think "can" should be changed to "can't".Sarahtrissel (talk) 17:37, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Film Adaptations
Should we not take out the biased language of, "The film was a commercial success"? Maybe just take into account the money budget and revenue from box offices.

Also, Should there be negative reviews of the movie from credited sources? The film did not receive 100% success rate, so should we not include some analysis of the film other than the positive reviews?

Amb401 (talk) 14:39, 2 November 2016 (UTC)Alex Blackwood, amb401Amb401 (talk) 14:39, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Censorship
I intend to delve into specific censorship cases of this novel. Included is a list of cases and sources that I intend to use. I also hope to rework sentence structure of some paragraphs and and film reviews from credible sources to the "Film" section. Works Cited CANDACE PRESTON-COY, and Staff W. ThisWeek. "Parents and Students Defend Reading Choices." ThisWeek Community Newspapers (Columbus, OH): 01A. Apr 26 2007. Web. Christopher, Placek c. "Dist. 41 Debates Reinstating â€˜Perks of being a Wallflowerâ€™." Daily Herald (Arlington Heights, IL): 3. May 29 2013. Web. "During the Second Week of School, a Ninth Grade Pre-AP English." Post-Tribune (IN)Nov 26 2008. Web. LUCCA, VIOLET. "The Perks of being a Wallflower." Film Comment 48.5 (2012): 86-. JSTOR. Web. Luther Turmelle, New,Haven Register. "Banning Books Detrimental to Students, Wallingford Residents Told." New Haven Register (CT)Oct 06 2015. Web. "The Perks of Teaching 'Perks'." Record-Journal (Meriden, CT): D01. Aug 23 2015. Web. Vo, Eric. "Committee Returns 'Perks' to Curriculum." Record-Journal (Meriden, CT): A01. Apr 25 2015. Web.

Amb401 (talk) 18:39, 12 November 2016 (UTC)Alex BlackwoodAmb401 (talk) 18:39, 12 November 2016 (UTC)amb401Amb401 (talk) 18:39, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

This article is lacking information on the many bans and instances of censorship that have plagued this novel. In the coming weeks, I plan to create a section solely dedicated to the controversies and add information on specific cases. In addition to these improvements, I will add information from more scholarly sources on the reception of the novel by young adults I noticed a few citations from unreliable sources. Even though the information they claim may be accurate it is still better to back up this information with more reputable citations.

Works Cited Brannan, Sarah, Stephen Chbosky, and Lauren Myracle. "Banned Authors Speak Out." Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom 58.6 (2009): 196-230. Web. Christopher, Placek c. "Dist. 41 Debates Reinstating â€˜Perks of being a Wallflowerâ€™." Daily Herald (Arlington Heights, IL): 3. May 29 2013. Web. Curwood, Jen Scott, Megan Schliesman, and Kathleen T. Horning. "Fight for Your Right: Censorship, Selection, and LGBTQ Literature." The English Journal 98.4 (2009): 37-43. JSTOR. Web. Foerstel, Herbert N. Banned in the U.S.A. : A Reference Guide to Book Censorship in Schools and Public Libraries. Westport, US: Greenwood Press, 2002. Web. Karen MacPherson, Pittsburgh P. "Attempted Book Bans Focus Now on Gays." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (PA): A. Sep 24 2005. Web. MARY, BETH V. "Petition Launched to Reverse D41 Banning of 'the Perks of being a Wallflower'." Glen Ellyn News, The (IL)May 16 2013. Web. Sarigianides, Sophia Tatiana. "Tensions in Teaching Adolescence/ts: ANALYZING RESISTANCES IN A YOUNG ADULT LITERATURE COURSE." Journal of Adolescent & Adult Literacy 56.3 (2012): 222-30. JSTOR. Web.

Jtc79 (talk) 04:04, 14 November 2016 (UTC)Joe CarneyJtc79 (talk) 04:04, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Article Evaluation

 * Intro paragraph seems similar to that of a persuasive essay than an encyclopedic introduction
 * In background section there are a lot of quotations used and while this isn't necessarily a bad thing it seemed like one large quote -- never hurts to paraphrase a little
 * The article doesn't go into detail on the reasons why the book was challenged and what was used to justify those reasonings
 * Some links are missing from things that I believe should be tagged -- like some of the drugs (including alcohol), the main character Rocky of the Rocky Horror show, suicide, the definition of realism, and possibly the definition of molestation so as to give readers a clearer insight
 * Cite information other than articles? (Not always plausible)

Other than that I believed it was well written and gave clear, concise, and accurate portrayals of the book and the author. It presented both the negative and positive feedback the book received, limiting bias, as well as a thorough plot summary and background information. Mil2trill (talk) 02:18, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Publication and reception:

Objections to the book include the use of "profanity", "drug abuse", "sexually explicit" scenes, and "torture". Groups like PABBIS (Parents Against Bad Books in School) work to restrict literature considered "controversial" from being accessed by younger children, and moved to the adult section. In 2009, Perks was repeatedly challenged for descriptions of masturbation, sexually explicit conduct, drug use, and talk of suicide. There have been multiple pushes across the United States to move this literary work from the young adults section to the adults section in order to regulate access to the book.

Furthermore, parents have raised issues with the novel for it's "pornographic" content and "vulgarity", but others have argued that the book deals with real teen issues that deal with growing up, so it presents a realistic viewpoint. Furthermore, issues surrounding the books themes of homosexuality, as well as a "glorification" of the use of drugs and alcohol.

Background and writing:

... he was experiencing an unpleasant breakup...

...referring to self love, encompassing one's life and hopes for the future, and not just romantic love...

...In the novel, Chbosky included much of his own memories from his time in Pittsburgh. The other characters were all manifestations of people the author had known throughout his life. Chbosky.... attempting to pin down the very nature of each of the characters...

As well as additional sources for the information I retrieved for the challenges presented in opposition to the book: http://www.marshall.edu/library/bannedbooks/books/perks.asp http://www.oif.ala.org/oif/?p=1525 http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/03/27/perks-of-being-wallflower-ban-kamloops_n_5045524.html http://www.pabbis.com/ Mil2trill (talk) 14:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

New suggested edits for the article
I want to revise certain sentences to make them more concise:

Delete this sentence: "Charlie chooses that person because he said that he heard the person was nice and thought that this person would not be judgmental " because its not really relevant.

Edit this sentence: "Charlie, whom Chbosky has said is '[his] hope in the form of a character', is loosely based on the author." to "Charlie was loosely based on Chbosky himself" to make the sentence less wordy.

Edit this sentence: "Chbosky first conceived random ideas, including 'a kid standing up in a tunnel', a girl he likes, and parties he goes to." to "Chbosky incorporated both fictional ideas and personal experiences to the novel."

Reword the first paragraph in the "Plot" section to :  Charlie, the 15-year-old protagonist, begins writing letters about his own life to an unknown recipient. In these letters he discusses his first year at high school and his struggles with two traumatic experiences: the suicide of his only middle-school friend, Michael Dobson, and the death of his favorite aunt, Helen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Talitavf (talk • contribs) 18:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I want to add an image of the new/updated cover-page.

Talitavf (talk) 18:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)Talitavf

Manuelaf99's Proposed Edits
After evaluating this article, I believe it is important to re-organize the themes section as well as the reception/publication section of the article. There is a paragraph in the themes section that speaks about critiques of the book, which I believe are more relevant to the section about reception/publication. Additionally, it is important to highlight the backlash received after the film release and how that changed the public's perception of the novel.

Additionally, I believe that the first sentence in the "Background and Writing" section should be edited, or even removed, due to grammatical errors. Finally, the sentence in the "Plot" section speaking about the recipient of his letters is grammatically bizarre and out of context. I propose to either delete this sentence or condense it into the first sentence. Manuelaf99 (talk) 18:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)Manuelaf99

sshekarchi's intentions upon editing
Upon evaluating the article and reading over the talk page, I feel as though this article would benefit from the re-addition of a character list/ brief descriptions of each one. I also think that the "see also" section at the bottom of the article is confusing, as it only mentions 'repressed memory', though there are many other links that could be added to this category, for example, PTSD and molestation, which are hyperlinked already in the plot. I think that the see also section should be deleted altogether, and I can add the repressed memory hyperlink when it is relevant in the plot. Sshekarchi (talk) 17:58, 8 February 2018 (UTC)sshekarchi
 * Agree with your consideration on "See also", but, regarding the characters, I think they are well covered by plot. MOS:NOVELS indeed states: "Most articles do not need this section. Instead, a finely crafted plot summary is used to introduce the characters to the reader". Gabriel Yuji (talk) 17:59, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Amc452 proposed edits
After evaluating the page, I think it's appropriate to also include a section that includes the scenes from the book that were deleted/omitted from the movie

Under the receptions part, for the purposes of clarity and cohesion, I think it's necessary to have all the negative feedback about the book and the positive ones grouped together instead of having them all jumbled up together in a paragraph.

The following sentence is a run on sentence: "Wisconsin school board refused to ban the book, angering local parents, and the Glen Ellyn District 41 school board in suburban Chicago unanimously voted to reinstate the novel after it was removed from eighth-grade classrooms at Hadley Junior High School because of a parent's objection to its sexual content." To fix this too long of a sentence and needs to go into more depth about the specific situations. and chop the specific sections up into individual sentences.

Amc452 (talk) 18:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)amc452

 * E GinHaku125 (talk) 14:00, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Perks of Being a Wallflower


text:
Labour of Lust

Labour of Lust is an album by British singer-songwriter Nick Lowe. Produced by Lowe, it was released in 1979 by Radar Records in the UK and Columbia Records in the US. It was recorded and released at the same time as Dave Edmunds' Repeat When Necessary and features the same Rockpile personnel. It led off with "Cruel to Be Kind," Lowe's only major US hit.

The American version of this record had a slightly different track listing, with "Endless Grey Ribbon" being deleted and replaced with the UK single A-side, "American Squirm." The latter song includes members of Elvis Costello & The Attractions, namely Elvis Costello on backing vocals, Bruce Thomas on bass and Pete Thomas on drums. Credited to "Nick Lowe and His Sound," the B-side of this single was Elvis & The Attractions' version of the Lowe-penned "(What's So Funny 'Bout) Peace, Love & Understanding?" "Endless Grey Ribbon" was later issued in America as the B-side of the "Cruel to Be Kind" single.

Labour of Lust was released on CD in 1990 by Demon/Fiend in Europe and Columbia in North America, but quickly fell out of print. Yep Roc Records reissued the album on CD on 15 March 2011, containing all tracks from the US and UK versions, as well as "Basing Street," the B-side of both the UK single "Cracking Up" and the North American single "Switchboard Susan."

Cover design
The album cover and corresponding ad campaign was designed by Barney Bubbles, who designed the artwork for virtually all of the early albums and 45's by Lowe, Elvis Costello, Ian Dury, the Damned, and many other Stiff Records and Radar Records artists. It featured a distinctive "Hamer & sickle" logo, fashioning the body and snapped neck of Lowe's Hamer bass guitar into a pop-art Hammer and sickle, the symbol of proletarian solidarity from the Russian Revolution. This logo was also used on the sleeve of the 45 release of "Cracking Up." Bubbles's original mockup of the logo, which recently sold at auction, is featured in the gatefold sleeve of the 2011 Yep Roc reissue of the album.

Critical reception
The Globe and Mail wrote that "Lowe's ear for background is, in its own contemporary way, as inventive and dramatic as Phil Spector's was 15 years ago." The New York Times deemed Labour of Lust one of 1979's "most exuberant and finely crafted rock-and-roll albums."

U.K. version
All songs written by Nick Lowe except where noted.
 * 1) "Cruel to Be Kind" (Lowe, Ian Gomm) – 3:31
 * 2) "Cracking Up" – 2:59
 * 3) "Big Kick, Plain Scrap!" – 2:28
 * 4) "Born Fighter" – 3:09
 * 5) "You Make Me" – 1:53
 * 6) "Skin Deep" – 3:12
 * 7) "Switch Board Susan" (Mickey Jupp) – 3:50
 * 8) "Endless Grey Ribbon" – 3:17
 * 9) "Without Love" – 2:29
 * 10) "Dose of You" – 3:21
 * 11) "Love So Fine" (Lowe, Dave Edmunds, Billy Bremner, Terry Williams) – 3:52

U.S. version

 * 1) "Cruel to Be Kind" – 3:31
 * 2) "Cracking Up" – 2:59
 * 3) "Big Kick, Plain Scrap" – 2:28
 * 4) "American Squirm" – 2:29
 * 5) "You Make Me" – 1:53
 * 6) "Skin Deep" – 3:12
 * 7) "Switch Board Susan" – 3:50
 * 8) "Dose of You" – 3:21
 * 9) "Without Love" – 2:29
 * 10) "Born Fighter" – 3:09
 * 11) "Love So Fine" – 3:52

2011 Yep Roc records

 * 1) "Cruel to Be Kind" – 3:31
 * 2) "Cracking Up" – 2:59
 * 3) "Big Kick, Plain Scrap" – 2:28
 * 4) "American Squirm" – 2:29
 * 5) "Born Fighter" – 3:09
 * 6) "You Make Me" – 1:53
 * 7) "Skin Deep" – 3:12
 * 8) "Switchboard Susan" – 3:50
 * 9) "Endless Grey Ribbon" – 3:17
 * 10) "Without Love" – 2:29
 * 11) "Dose of You" – 3:21
 * 12) "Love So Fine" – 3:52
 * 13) "Basing Street" (Bonus Track) – 2:32

Personnel

 * Nick Lowe – bass and vocals
 * Dave Edmunds & Billy Bremner – rhythm & solo guitars & backing vocals
 * Terry Williams – drums
 * Additional personnel
 * Huey Lewis – harmonica on "Born Fighter"
 * Bob Andrews – Oberheim on "Endless Grey Ribbon"
 * Elvis Costello – backing vocals on "American Squirm"
 * Bruce Thomas – bass on "American Squirm"
 * Pete Thomas – drums on "American Squirm"
 * Roger Bechirian – recording

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Labour of Lust


text:
Talk:Race, milieu, and moment

No merge
I would be disappointed if this article were merged with Hippolyte Taine as has been suggested. The Taine article is already quite long, and is specifically biographical--it does not present a concise depiction of Taine's ideas. But more importantly, Race, milieu, and moment is a stub that serves a useful function and has an opportunity to grow. Race, milieu, and moment represent a distinctive and influential force in the history of 19th-century literary criticism apart from Taine's use of those terms. A reader might easily come across the terms and wonder what they mean, and would be confused if redirected to Taine's biography, which would not be what she was looking for. An exposition of the particular theory those terms name would be far more useful to her. Right now, that exposition is still slim, but the stub was created less than 12 hours ago and certainly should be given some time to develop. Chick Bowen 13:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The Hippolyte Taine article is incomplete without Taine's ideas. I added a Main article:... heading to the respective text, so readers will find their way here. Race and moment have other connotations in English than what they had for Taine in French: the present title presents an obstacle that needs to be surmounted by explication. --Wetman 14:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Point taken--I'll add an explanation shortly. Incidentally, this article was created as part of the Missing articles WikiProject, which means that another encyclopedia (in this case the current edition of Britannica), has an article with the same name. Chick Bowen 15:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Race, milieu, and moment


text:
Avenir Suisse

Avenir Suisse is a classical liberal think tank focused on Switzerland's future in political, economical and social areas. Its main goal is to stimulate the public debate and to provide new ideas through the publication of studies and the regular organisation of events and seminars. It encourages a liberal vision of the world and the society. Its research team comprises mostly graduates in economy, political economy and political science (with 4 women and 14 men in 2019).

Avenir Suisse is a nonprofit foundation with headquarters in Zurich. The foundation has a yearly budget of 5 million Swiss Francs and its fund reaches 50 million. The foundation is completely free in its research and content.

Founded in 1999 by 14 of the most important Swiss multinationals, Avenir Suisse is nowadays supported by 130 donors: Swiss companies as well as individuals.

Organisation
Avenir Suisse is present in Zurich (head office) and in Geneva (French-speaking office). Peter Grünenfeld is Avenir Suisse's manager, successor to Gerhard Schwarz since 2016. Before him, Thomas Held was the manager of the foundation since its creation in 1999. Tiber Adler is the French-speaking manager since 1 June 2014. He is the successor to Xavier Comtesse, first French-speaking manager of the foundation.

The Chairman of the Board since May 2020 has been Michel Liès, a French-born former CEO of the insurance company Swiss RE and current Chairman of the Board of Directors of Zurich Insurance. He succeeds Andreas Schmid, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Flughafen Zürich AG, who in turn succeeded Rolf Soiron in this position in 2014.

The governance of the think tank relies on:

- The foundation board that approves budgets, the annual financial results and nominates the management

- the steering committee that supervises the foundation and prepares the meetings of the council of the foundation,

- the nomination committee that designates the members of each commission

- the program commission that recommends the topics and guarantees of the quality and methodology of each project

- the finance committee that audits the budget and the annual and quarterly reports.

Approach
According to its mission statement, Avenir Suisse "wants to contribute to the formation of new ideas concerning economics, politics and the society at large." It follows "a liberal agenda and represents a market oriented position." Thus it postulates that "it cannot be in the first place the task of the State to solve the problems on the agenda." Still, the think tank "doesn't play an active part in the process of politic consults or campaigns of votes." But to be "an animator of the public debate".

The foundation's publications tackle social, political and economical topics such as energy and environment, tax policies, professional training, old-age savings or the political system at large. The think tank also handles actual subjects such as: the work of seniors, the strong franc policy and the financial equalization between cantons.

Publications
Since its founding, the think tank has published the following monographs (selection):

 * "Choosing a Career: One Step Closer to Gender Equality" (May 2024)
 * "Real Bracket Creep in Switzerland" (April 2024)
 * "The Return of Industrial Policy?" (March 2024)
 * "The Bachelor's Degree, an Underestimated Diploma" (March 2024)
 * "Energy Policy under Strain" (November 2023)
 * "Innovation without Borders" (September 2023)
 * "Myths around Rents" (September 2023)
 * "More Value in Healthcare" (May 2023)
 * "Betting on the Wrong Regulatory Cards" (April 2022)
 * "Security Policy Perspectives" (March 2022)
 * "Switzerland, the Land of Subsidies" (March 2022)
 * "Continuing Swiss Industry's Success Story" (October 2021)
 * "Free movement of persons and accompanying measures" (May 2017)
 * "A solid foundation for the age pyramid" (April 2017)
 * "Liberal shadow budget" (March 2017)
 * "Structural change in the Swiss mountain region" (February 2017)
 * "NFA 2 – Towards a Revitalisation of Swiss Federalism" (January 2017)
 * "New online publication: Avenir Suisse Freedom Index 2016" (December 2016)
 * "The Myth of the Family Silver" (November 2016)
 * "An endurance test for budgetary policy" (October 2016)
 * "Trade rather than protectionism" (October 2016)
 * "Negative interest rates: an experiment with an uncertain outcome" (July 2016)
 * "Switzerland 1995 2035" (June 2016)
 * "New Measures for Old Age Care" (June 2016)
 * "Ways out of the regulatory jungle II" (March 2016)
 * "Growth – why, how much and how" (January 2016)
 * "Where does Switzerland stand?" (January 2016)
 * "Bilateralism – what else?" (December 2015)

title: Avenir Suisse


text:
Good-morning

The good-morning is a weight training exercise. It is known as a good morning because of the movement in the erector spinae which resembles the bow that traditionally begins a schoolday in some East-Asian countries. The erector spinae muscles of the lower back work isometrically to keep the spine in an extended position while the hamstrings and gluteus maximus work isotonically to perform hip extension. Other muscles are involved in stabilizing weight on the back and maintaining balance.

The degree of knee bend used will change the focus. The straighter the knees, the more the hamstrings are stretched and stressed by the movement and this stretch involves them more as the hip extensors. Bent knees can shift the weight forward, which allows the pelvis to drift back further as the body hinges in hip flexion.

Importance
The good-morning is an essential exercise in the Westside Barbell method and is often trained to near limit maxima. Developing strength in the lift aids in the recovery of a "bad" squat, reducing the risk of injury. Properly applied, it can also strengthen an individual's deadlift; for this reason, it is a key exercise in the conjugate method of training this lift.

In Olympic weightlifting, the good-morning is used as the most efficient assistance exercise to train the second phase of the clean or snatch pull and bases of squat positions in snatch drops and clean squat positions. In this variation, the lifter will descend, reverse direction, and accelerate the ascent, rising up onto the toes at the conclusion of the lift. This mimics the rapid hip extension and subsequent toe-rise during the clean and jerk or snatch.

Form
One starts with a barbell held on one's shoulders, behind the head. Similar to a back squat, there is some variation with the height on the back at which the bar is held. Holding the bar lower on the back decreases the distance to the pelvis and decreases the strain on the hip and spine extensors: a low bar position allows one to lift heavier weights while a high position allows one to stress the muscles harder with a lighter weight.

Another possibility is to hold a barbell at the crooks of the arms, on the inside of the elbow, as in a Zercher squat.

The lifter bends forward, bowing at the hips while keeping the back straight. This is the eccentric portion. The motion is at its halfway point when the lifter's torso is almost parallel with the ground, after which the lifter returns to the upright position, during the concentric portion.

It is recommended that the lifter avoid rounding (flexing) or rotation (twisting) at any point during movement; however, it appears that some spinal flexion is elicited during the movement. A properly distributed bar, balance and core stability help to prevent this from occurring in excess. The lifter should rather concentrate on pushing the hips back while keeping the spine straight or arched.

Implements
Other forms of resistance can be used other than a barbell in variations of the movement. While awkward and creating pressure points, dumbbells or kettlebells may be used. A sandbag is a comfortable alternative, or a medicine ball held behind the head. Weighted clubs or maces can be set against the back. Stretch bands anchored under the feet are also used.

The movement can also be performed with an empty bar, a broomstick, or one's body weight, a variation suitable for beginners, casual stretching, warmups, warmdowns or endurance training.

A similar exercise and easier alternative for odd implements such as dumbbells would be doing stiff or straight legged deadlifts. This involves the arms hanging down rather than up at one's back, and the pressure is exerted on the back through being held in the hands and through one's supporting back musculature such as the lattismus dorsi, trapezius and rhomboids.

Dangers
The good-morning is a controversial exercise as some will claim that it leads to lower back injuries. Famously, Bruce Lee seriously injured himself while performing the exercise after an inadequate warm-up and over confidently selecting his working weight. On the other hand, the good-morning can also strengthen the lower back and prevent injury when properly applied.

Rounding the back can result in back injuries. To aid in preventing a rounded back, the lifter's chin should remain upright. A common technique is to focus the eyes on a spot at about belt height during the lift, reversing direction after lowering when the eyes come in line with the spot. At the bottom of the range of motion, this keeps the chin up and the head tilted back, facilitating a flat or slightly arched spine.

title: Good-morning


text:
Talk:Snow cone

Opening comment
Can someone with a bit more knowledge add something about Singapore's very similar ice kachangs? --Breathstealer 13:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Ameri-centric
This article deals too much with the United States' view on snow cones, and does not have a global point of view.

I agree with Breathstealer in that Sinagporean/Malaysian Ice Kacangs should be mentioned on- and linked to this page.

 * I personally don't know anything about snow cones outside of the US, but if you know something that should be in the article, then please be bold and make changes to the article. --Brandon Dilbeck 14:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

 * See Kakigori for the Japanese version of shaved ice. That article also includes wikilinks and names to other East Asian countries' kinds of the treat. --217.234.104.37 09:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

As a native of Hawaii, I must say that the proper term for this island treasure is "Shave Ice", not "ShaveD Ice". There is a great deal of difference between a snow cone and a shave ice, in that a snow cone (or even very poorly made shave ice) is granular in texture, or even mostly smooth with small grains, the occasional chip or chunk. A proper shave ice is perfectly smooth, absolutely no grains, almost like confectioners sugar that melts instantly in your mouth, and there are no chips or chunks. None of the current automatic machines can produce the texture properly of the traditional crank machines - though modern crank units are powered. Also, the picture on the page of a "Snow Cone at Diamond head should be re-titled Shave Ice, as that is what is shown. 70.134.86.101 05:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)Hula Girl
 * The problem is that some snow cones, or whatever you want to call them, are made from shaved iced. I'm redirecting here until we have enough material for separate pages.  We are basically talking about regional cuisine variations. —Viriditas | Talk 22:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Piragua
pir = pyramid and agua = water? Someone made this up. Piraguas are named such obviously because after the piragua man has scraped a few servings off the ice block, it looks like a canoe, or "piragua" in Spanish. Duh. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.186.191.23 (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

White versus blue
Whatever happened to the separation of the church and the state? Oh ... what am I saying ... let me rephrase ... whatever happened to the separate identities of the Blue Coconut and the White Coconut? Can we add them under the item Coconut? Just wondering ... User:Kushal_one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.150.163.1 (talk) 22:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, I am having a blue one right now ... Is it hot in Texas or what? --69.150.163.1 22:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC) (Autosign this, bot!)

The Baltimore Snowball
It seems to me the Baltimore Snowball is very similar to the New Orleans variety.  (Neither being snow cones >ick!< of course)  Does anyone know if they are identical? --Knulclunk (talk) 12:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Who's Nina?
"Nina enjoying a "Piragua" in Puerto Rico" I don't understand this. Is this image text referring to a person named Nina? If so, why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apoyon (talk • contribs) 13:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. --Knulclunk (talk) 21:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Pics?
right|100px This article has a photo of a rainbow snow cone smashed on the ground instead of one of the glorious Snoopy Snow Cone Machine! That just ain't right! BillyTFried (talk) 11:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Movie themed "Popular Mixes"
Under the Flavors section, there are several movie/fictional characters that don't have any context linked to them Popular Mixes
 * Batman
 * Ghostbusters
 * Smurf
 * Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

It would be nice if there was a little bit more substance than just the names here. Is it a reference to the colors used, marshmallows in the Ghostbusters? What are other peoples thoughts? --70.137.164.191 (talk) 08:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Frankly, I don't understand why there is a list of flavors at all. Considering these things are syrup poured over shaved ice, you can make any flavor conceivable. The list would literally be endless. Until and unless there is a governmental body to regulate snow cone flavors, we should refrain from unnecessary lists. I've deleted it altogether. -69.47.186.70 (talk) 07:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Isn't this the same as a granita?
Where is the difference, if there is any? --Tobias Schmidbauer 15:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I would say that there looks to be little difference(never had one but they sound good). The possible exception is that it sound like the ingredients may be mixed in a slightly different way, and that they use more natural flavors in the granita. Not that each couldn't be made to closely resemble the other, and at extremes probably do quite a lot. Could be worth a mention on both articles, but I wouldn't merge them anymore than I would with either and gelato. --70.137.141.235 (talk) 10:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

In Italy they sell snow cones under the name "granita". The problem with the Wikipedia article Granita is that it does cover only a subset of what at least in Italy is called granita. I don't know what the term refers to in English, so the article Granita may be correct nevertheless. --Tobias Schmidbauer 17:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Granitas generally have coarser ice crystals and are made by flavored liquids that are then semi frozen, and scraped to create the ice crystals. Whereas most snow cones are made from plain shaved ice that are formed, then flavored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veritas (talk) 09:48, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Frio Frio vs. Yun Yun
The article incorrectly states that in Dominican Republic Frio Frio and Yun Yun are the same thing. While a Frio Frio is a Snow Cone, a Yun Yun is actually a Slushee. I have proceeded to edit this entry. --Zavreio (talk) 02:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * To be more specific, the difference is that while the snow cone is flavored after the ice has been scraped, the Yun Yun does not involve any scraping and is already flavored before serving. --Zavreio (talk) 02:30, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge snowball/snow cone with shaved ice?
Its basicly the same thing, its just two diffrent names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wabachababba (talk • contribs) 11:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Not done. DMacks (talk) 21:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Snow cone → — since there are many popular names, the descriptive name is best. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Against: to me the only thing you do with a snow cone is eat it, shaved ice can be used for many things, such as keeping things cold. Wongm (talk) 13:59, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose at least for now. We do need an article on shave ice or Hawaiian shave ice which is very different from a snow cone in term of the ice.  If we go with shave ice which is sometimes called shaved ice the proposed name would wind up being confusing.  Also snow cones are typically crushed and not shaved ice.  Vegaswikian (talk) 18:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose- Shaved ice is not always flavored. It is only 50% of what a snow cone is. Are you going to rename the ice cream article to frozen milk? --WikiDonn (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Butcher's boat?
What is a butcher's boat? 2601:9:1000:45D:A130:9AA:7B65:F448 (talk) 13:34, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

 * Seriously. When I google ["butchers' boats" and "snow cone"] the only result is the aforementioned article! No clue what the term means.
 * Who edited that in needs to do some explaining... Human 8482746245 (talk) 00:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

In the section about Theatres, "Around the city, snowballs were served on newspaper, but in the classy theaters, butchers' boats were used." 2601:9:1000:45D:A130:9AA:7B65:F448 (talk) 13:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * As a tagged-uncited and talkpage-disputed content for years, I simply removed it. DMacks (talk) 06:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Many articles about the same thing: flavored ice
There is Snow cone, Granizado, Shaved ice, Shave ice and in each one there are descriptions of the same stuff as named in other countries (ie. references from each one to the latin-american granizado as a variation of the item of the article). In the end all are flavored ice desserts! A big rework is needed, too much of du-tri-quatplicity. But I see from a vote 10 years ago that there are strong sentiments related to this. I would propose to merge everything to Shaved ice and keep the localization explanations itemized or as sections if there too much sentimental attachment to some (I don't care about my granizados, but Kakigōri might need its own section as it has a very specific own article, other variations might have one). --Roqz (talk) 23:50, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

X or bust
"X or bust" seems to be a pretty obvious snowcone, but I can't find any sources outside dictionaries that refer to it or provide examples that are common in the media ; e.g. Hollywood or Bust, Badger or Bust, Rock or Bust World Tour, etc. Can anyone else? Wolfdog (talk) 03:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Snow cone


text:
Jellicoe

Jellicoe may refer to:

People

 * John Jellicoe Blair, RAF pilot during WWII
 * Ann Jellicoe (1927–2017), British actress, theatre director and playwright
 * Sir Geoffrey Jellicoe (1900–1996), British landscape architect
 * George Jellicoe, 2nd Earl Jellicoe (1918–2007), British army officer, politician and businessman
 * John Jellicoe, 1st Earl Jellicoe (1859–1935), British Royal Navy officer

Places

 * Jellicoe, Ontario, a village located near Lake Nipigon in Greenstone, Ontario
 * Jellicoe Channel connecting the Hauraki Gulf with the Pacific Ocean

Other uses

 * Jellicoe (band), a British band
 * Earl Jellicoe, a title in the Peerage of the United Kingdom

title: Jellicoe


text:
Solanum mammosum

Solanum mammosum, commonly known as nipplefruit, fox head, cow's udder, or apple of Sodom, is an inedible Pan-American tropical fruit. The plant is grown for ornamental purposes, in part because of the distal end of the fruit's resemblance to a human breast, while the proximal end looks like a cow's udder. It is an annual in the family Solanaceae, and part of the genus Solanum, making the plant a relative of the eggplant, tomato, and potato. This poisonous fruit is native to South America, but has been naturalized in Southern Mexico, Greater Antilles, Central America, and the Caribbean. The plant adapts well to most soils, but thrives in moist, loamy soil. The plant has thin simple leaves occurring in alternating branching patterns with prominent venation. Hairy thorns cover the stem and branches of the plant. The inflorescence contains five to eight purple elongating buds. The fruit is a berry type, and has waxy yellow skin with reddish-brown seeds. The plant is propagated by the distribution of seeds.

Uses
Folkloric uses of the plant range from treating asthma with a root decoction, to curing athlete's foot by rubbing leaf juices on the skin. Although these medical uses are not widely practiced and vary through cultures, they are an explanation for why this plant has been cultivated.

The fruit has been embraced by Eastern cultures. It is primarily used as decorative foliage for religious and festival floral arrangements in Asia. The fruit is imported for the creation of Chinese New Year trees, due to their golden colored fruit and the belief that the five "fingers" on the fruit represent longevity for the family. In Chinese culture, the plant is known as five fingered eggplant (五指茄) and in Japan it is known as Fox Face (フォックスフェイス).

The juice of the fruit can be used as a detergent in place of a washing powder, making it similar to the soap nut. The Kofan People of Colombia and Ecuador use the plant as an insect repellent, primarily against cockroaches. The fruit works as a repellent because of the toxicity of steroidal glycoalkaloid.

Although the mature fruit is poisonous, it can be cooked and eaten like a vegetable when it is unripe. It provides a good source of calcium, phosphorus, iron and vitamin B. One way that the fruit can be prepared is boiling the whole fruit and drinking the juices once boiled. In the Philippines, not only is the fruit eaten, but the leaves are also prepared as a tea considered to be anodyne, a mild narcotic.

Synonyms
This plant is not easily confused, but several now-invalid scientific names have been given to it:
 * Solanum corniculatum E.André (non Huber: preoccupied )
 * S. corniculatum of Hiern refers to an unidentifiable species of Lycianthes.

 * Solanum mammosum 2.jpgSolanum cornigerum E.André
 * S. cornigerum of Dunal in de Candolle is now S. viscosissimum.

 * Solanum globiferum Dunal
 * Solanum mammosum var. corniculum Ridl.
 * Solanum mamosissimum Ram.Goyena
 * Solanum platanifolium Sims
 * S. platanifolium var. lagoense is the Solanum affine of Otto Sendtner.

 * Solanum villosissimum Zuccagni

In addition, the name Solanum mammosum was also invalidly given to other nightshade species:
 * S. mammosum as described by J.A. Pavón Jiménez based on Dunal in de Candolle refers to S. circinatum.
 * S. mammosum as described by W. Herbert based on Dunal in de Candolle is the S. torvum of O.P. Swartz.

title: Solanum mammosum


text:
Harlem River Drive

Harlem River Drive is a 4.20-mile (6.76 km) controlled-access parkway in the New York City borough of Manhattan. It runs along the west bank of the Harlem River from the Triborough Bridge in East Harlem to 10th Avenue in Inwood, where the parkway ends and the road continues northwest as Dyckman Street. South of the Triborough Bridge, the parkway continues toward lower Manhattan as FDR Drive. All of Harlem River Drive is designated New York State Route 907P (NY 907P), an unsigned reference route.

The parkway north of 165th Street was originally part of the Harlem River Speedway, a horse carriage roadway opened in 1898. The rest of the parkway from 125th to 165th Street opened to traffic in stages from 1951 to 1962. The parkway's ceremonial designation, 369th Harlem Hellfighters Drive, is in honor of the 369th Infantry Regiment, also known as the Harlem Hellfighters.

Route description
Harlem River Drive begins at exit 17 of the FDR Drive in the East Harlem section of Manhattan. The parkway crosses under 125th Street alongside the Harlem River, where exit 18 leads off the northbound lanes to the Willis Avenue Bridge before bending to the northwest. exit 19 leads off the southbound lanes to 125th Street. Harlem River Drive proceeds northwest, crosses under the Third Avenue Bridge, reaching exit 21 northbound, a junction for 135th Street. Southbound, exit 20 connects to Park Avenue. Continuing northward, Harlem River Drive continues north under the Madison Avenue Bridge. Southbound, Harlem River Drive meets exit 22, a junction to 142nd Street and Fifth Avenue.

Crossing under 145th Street, Harlem River Drive passes east of the 145th Street subway station on the IRT Lenox Avenue Line. It then passes directly east of the Lenox Yard and the Harlem – 148th Street station. Harlem River Drive crosses under the Macombs Dam Bridge, 155th Street, and Seventh Avenue before crossing northbound exit 23, a left exit to Frederick Douglass Boulevard. Then, the parkway goes east of the Polo Grounds site and merges with the southbound exit 23, an exit to Frederick Douglass Boulevard and to a junction with the Harlem River Driveway, which goes south to 155th Street. Shortly after, Harlem River Drive enters exit 24, a four-lane viaduct that rises from the parkway to connect to the George Washington Bridge via I-95 and US 1 along the Trans-Manhattan Expressway, as well to Amsterdam Avenue in Washington Heights.

Harlem River Drive continues northeast as a four-lane parkway. Crossing under the Alexander Hamilton Bridge, Harlem River Drive crosses through Highbridge Park before turning away from the Harlem River in Inwood. The four-lane arterial continues north through Manhattan, entering a junction with Dyckman Street and Tenth Avenue, which is the northern end of Harlem River Drive.

History
The Drive originated as the Harlem River Speedway, which started construction in 1894 and opened in July 1898. Originally, the Speedway was exclusively for the use of horse-drawn carriages and those on horseback; bicyclists were specifically excluded, as were sulkies and drays. The Speedway ran from West 155th Street to Dyckman Street, and soon became a tourist destination, where visitors watched carriage races and boat races on the river. Rich New Yorkers used the Speedway to train their horses and size up those of their friends and competitors. In 1919, motorists were allowed on the Speedway, but for normal driving purposes. The route was paved in 1922, and officially renamed the Harlem River Driveway.

In 1939, Manhattan Borough President Stanley M. Isaacs unveiled plans to build Harlem River Drive, which was planned as a four-lane road linking the Harlem River Speedway and East River (now FDR) Drive north of East 125th Street. The initial section of the drive would stretch from 125th to 165th Streets, near where it merged into the speedway. Traffic from the Triborough Bridge and the several Harlem River bridges joining the Major Deegan Expressway in the Bronx would feed into the drive. Harlem River Drive would also contain playgrounds and parks along its route, similar to those on East River Drive, There would be a service road abutting the drive's west side. Sections of the old speedway in the path of the highway would incorporated into the new highway. There would also be new ramps from the speedway section to the then-newly built George Washington Bridge.

The cost of Harlem River Drive was originally estimated at over $18 million, of which $11 million was used to build the highway itself and nearly $7 million in acquired lands. However, there were some disagreements during the planning of the new highway, and by 1946, the cost had increased to $26 million.

The modern Harlem River Drive was completed in segments during the 1950s and early 1960s. The segment connecting the Speedway to Eighth Avenue, which ended at 159th Street, was completed in 1951. The highway from 125th Street and First Avenue to 132nd Street and Park Avenue opened in 1958, connecting three of the Harlem River bridges. Another section between 142nd and 161st Streets opened in 1960, and an extension south to 132nd Street opened two years later, closing the gap between the two sections. In 1964, shortly after the drive's completion, the entire drive was widened to six lanes.

In 2003, the New York State Department of Transportation ceremonially designated the parkway as the "369th Harlem Hellfighters Drive" in honor of the all-black regiment that fought to defend France during World War I.

Founded in 2010, the Manhattan Waterfront Greenway runs between the river and the drive, from 155th to Dyckman Streets, in a portion of Highbridge Park which had been abandoned and fenced off approximately half a century.

Exit list
Exit numbers continue sequentially from those of FDR Drive.

title: Harlem River Drive


text: Talk:Labour of Lust

title: Talk:Labour of Lust


text:
Javan lapwing

The Javan lapwing (Vanellus macropterus) also known as Javanese lapwing and Javanese wattled lapwing is (or was) a wader in the lapwing family. This large, long-legged wader inhabited the marshes and river deltas of Java, and possibly Sumatra and Timor. It was last seen in 1940, and as it was a conspicuous species unlikely to be overlooked, it seems likely that it is extinct. And the IUCN classified it as such in their 1994 and 1996 assessments, but reversed that in 2000 and listed the species as Critically Endangered (CR).

In an assessment dated 1 October 2016, the IUCN justified the classification:

"This conspicuous species has not been recorded since 1940, and it is likely to have declined severely owing to extensive habitat degradation and destruction, probably compounded by significant hunting pressure. However, not all potential habitat has been surveyed, and local reports need to be followed up with dedicated surveys. Any remaining population is likely to be tiny, and for these reasons it is treated as Critically Endangered."

The IUCN clarifies by citing "unconfirmed reports" by locals from 2013. While acknowledging that finding live individuals is "unlikely", insight gained from observations in the 1920s may point to additional habitats not previously considered. Specifically grasslands on Belitung Island may be one such location to be surveyed. However, a 2018 study, citing previous patterns of bird population decline and the lack of any confirmed sightings, recommended uplisting the species to Critically Endangered (Possibly Extinct). The IUCN Red List agreed with this assessment on the 9th of August 2019.

title: Javan lapwing


text:
User talk:PassionInfinity

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! KHM03 14:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

It's nice that...
...within your first two or three posts you've mastered virtually all of wiki's markup codes, tags, et al, etc.. whatever.. and it's nice that you've also gravitated towards high profile articles within your first 4 or 5 posts outside your user page, but have you considered the possibility that you're a sock puppet?--172.136.191.115 14:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

PassionInfinity, don't worry about the comment above. The user might not have realized that you had been editing without a registered username for a while; and as far as I can tell you haven't done anything disruptive or inappropriate at all. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Anyone can see the messages on your page, by adding your page to their watchlist; or, if they do what I did and looked at "User contributions", they can see what you've been doing. I knew that you had just signed up, and I wanted to see how you were getting on, and to add a welcome if you hadn't received one, yet.  (Don't worry about trying to become an administrator.  That's not what Wikipedia is about). — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

 * See Help on tracking changes at: Recent | (enhanced) | Related | Watching pages | Page history | Diff | User contributions | Edit summary | Minor edit — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Atheism and logic
All this conversation is archived at User:Silence/PassionInfinity.

This is a continuation of the conversation from Talk:Atheism:

First of all, please don't waste your time if you really think this dicussion is.
 * Could you please explain to me what this line is in reference to so I can respond?

Secondly, by "Logis is Flawed", I meant that if you stick to logic only, it results in lots of Paradoxes.
 * First, I'm not sure what you mean by "logic only"; that sounds to me like criticizing a person who eats for "sticking to food only"; there's certainly more than logical discourse that we do, but we make use of logic because it's a valuable tool for helping us understand the world a little better. As for paradoxes, it sounds like you aren't aware that a paradox is not a logical contradiction, it's "A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking." Paradoxes don't defy logic, they defy our initial expectations in ironic, amusing, and interesting ways. But most importantly, the reason we use logic in communication with each other is—what's the alternative? Logic and critical analysis are the only remotely reliable way we have of determining untrue statements. Without it, we're forced to arbitrarily accept and reject statements without any rhyme or reason at all, just blindly following the masses or authority figures or whoever. And blindly following authorities without critically analyzing their actual statements, as history has taught us, is not a good idea at all.

''Ec5618 is quite right althogh not perfect. Logic can be used to prove the existence of God as well as the non-existence of God!''
 * Incorrect. Logic can neither be used to prove the existence of God nor to prove the nonexistence of God. Logically speaking, God may either exist or not exist—the nature of human perception and existence renders certainty about almost any subject impossible, so to say "God definitely exists" or "God definitely doesn't exist" is fundamentally irrational. What may be rational, on the other hand, is to say "God almost definitely doesn't exist", depending on how you interpret the evidence in question. But regardless, you seem to be confusing "logic" for "arguments"; that there are arguments for both sides of a dispute does not necessarily mean that each side's (or even either side's) arguments are valid.

''Really... what exactly does that mean? Should I blindly trust Logic?''
 * You should not blindly trust anything. You seem to be equating logic with an authority, which makes little sense; logic is just a system of thought, a tool we use to try to cut through the nonsense and improve the lives of mankind by more quickly and easily determining right propositions from wrong ones, an invaluable aid when it comes to things like the fields of medicine, engineering, politics.. Logic has saved lives, and continues to. This gets a bit closer to the real reason logic is so popular these days: it's not because logic supports its own existence, as that would be cyclic (though it is noteworthy that logic is consistent with itself); rather, it's because logic is useful. Logic has proven an effective system of thought and analysis, and if any flaw in logic ever did present itself, we would immediately change some aspect of the field of logic so as to correct this error. To criticize logic is about as silly as criticizing mathematics; we don't "blindly trust" math equations, we just make use of them because they're useful, consistent, and benefit mankind!

''You cannot teach Einstein's theory of Relatively to a dog. Can you?''
 * And you can't teach the Bible to a hermit crab. What is your point? We are not dogs.

''No matter how logical you are. It is impossible.''
 * Is this supposed to be some sort of criticism of logic? "Because you can't teach logic to dogs, logic is bad." What kind of nonsense is that? You could say the same thing about language, art, science, religion, culture, civilization, or love; why should we have to be able to teach something to a dog for it to be valuable to us? That's just nonsense.

''What is so difficult in understanding that there may be somethings even more complicated that our minds just can't grasp?
 * Nothing. What is so difficult in understanding that there may not be some things even more complicated than our minds can ever grasp? Either is possible, so to assume that there is definitely information beyond our ken is silly and pointless until we have some evidence to suggest that. What's most important is to keep our minds open and to analyze each new likely possibility critically and thoroughly so as to determine to the best of our abilities whether it's probably true or not. If you're rejecting logic, then you're failing to keep your mind open, and likely succumbing to dogmatism (which would be unfortunate), though you haven't specified what alternatives you'd propose to logic thus far, making your arguments largely rhetorical exercises, if not outright preaching. That's the unfortunate thing about arguing with someone who refuses to even attempt to be logical; nothing can ever go anywhere unless one party blindly accepts the other's proposition for no reason. Not gonna happen.

This universe is even more complicated than any of us have ever imagined!
 * Quite possibly. Does that mean we shoulds top trying to understand it altogether? The goal of science and logic isn't to get a perfect understanding of the universe, it's to get a better one; so far, it's succeeded quite admirably.

''I will talk about Darwinism and other things later. Those arguments come afterwards. Thanks!''
 * I can hardly wait. OK. Let's do this. -Silence 15:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Now that we've started talking on User talk:Silence, in the interest of centralization and avoiding redundancies, would you mind if we just continue the conversation on that page, and I'll type a little something here whenever I've responded to you on that page (as I did just now) so you get a bright orange notice but we don't get both of our talk pages flooded with the debate. -Silence 22:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Responded. -Silence 19:34, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Responded. I also re-merged Part 2 into Part 1, because you seemed to be having trouble keeping track of the conversation after it was split. Your next response will be with four asterisks (****) at the start of each line, and my most recent responses have three. -Silence 18:46, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Responded. -Silence 03:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The Muslim Guild
I thought you might be interested in joining The Muslim Guild.--JuanMuslim 03:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the various articles about Islam and see how you can contribute to make them better. --JuanMuslim 04:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Reference desk question
Hi, there was a question on the reference desk about a coin that may be in Urdu. I saw that you are an Urdu speaker and wondered if you might be able to confirm it is in Urdu and perhaps have more information on the coin. Thanks - Taxman Talk 16:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Sure
hope you will look closely at this [] BrandonYusufToropov 15:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Eid Mubarak
Eid Mubarak to you and best wishes. -- a.n.o.n.y.m  t 02:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Eid Mubarak
Best wishes to you and yours, BrandonYusufToropov 17:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Eid Mubarak
Eid Mubarak and best wishes from my side. F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 18:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello
Just want to say I got your message. What aspect of the Semitic religions do you want to talk about? I'm not exactly a theologian or anything, but I did take a few classes on Islam and have read some of the Doctors of the Catholic Church. I'm more up on the history then the theology. As Zoroastrianism is Persian I'm guess it doesn't count, yes or no?--T. Anthony 14:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

All done
I added myself to the list of Muslim Wikipedians as well as Shia Wikipedians. Thanks for the heads up. Salma 18:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello
Sorry I'm later in replying to your message. The main reasons were I was learning about Islam for a while before and I found it interesting especially that it made a lot of sense, so I converted after a few months of study. That is all I can tell you without going into detail. :) Salaam -- a.n.o.n.y.m  t 00:27, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your message. I already know a lot about Islam, but I will ask you if I have questions. Also many of my questions before converting were answered by Muslims in my neighborhood. :) Thank you and salaam. -- a.n.o.n.y.m  t 20:18, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Help
Please vote to merge and redirect Islamofascism to Neofascism and religion...

... which is where it belongs. Vote here: BrandonYusufToropov 21:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Urdu Wikipedia
Asalam-o-Alikum

I request you to please contribute to Urdu wikipedia. We are trying hard to build this wiki. Current article count is 617. Your help in any way would be appreciated.Wisesabre 06:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

2006 bin Laden video
I recently started 2006 bin Laden video. Please improve it in any way you see fit. Thanks. KI 14:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikiethics
Hi,

We started a proposal Wikiethics to state the existing policies coherently and make suggestions on improving the editorial standards in Wiki. I thought you might be interested in contributing to that proposal.

Unfortunately, a pro-porn and pro-offense lobby is trying to make this proposal a failure. They unilaterally started an approval poll although almost no one including me believe that it is time for a vote, simply because the policy is not ready. It is not even written completely.

Editors who thinks that the policy needs to be improved rather than killed by an unfair poll at the beginning of the proposal, started another poll ('Do we really need a poll at this stage?') at the same time. The poll is vandalized for a while but it is stable now. A NO vote on this ('Do we really need a poll now?') poll will strengthen the position of the editors who are willing to improve the ethics policy further.

If you have concerns about the ethics and editorial standards in Wiki, please visit the page Wikiethics with your suggestions on the policy. We have two subpages: Arguments and Sections. You might want to consider reviewing these pages as well...

Thanks in advance. Resid Gulerdem 21:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Administrator
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Salman01

Calling programmers
We need coders for the WikiProject Disambigation fixer. We need to make a program to make faster and easier the fixing of links. We will be happy if you could check the project. You can Help! --Neo139 09:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Barnstar Award
Please offer your opinion, vote, or whatever about your choice for the image to be used with the Islamic Barnstar Award at the Barnstar proposals page. Although there is consensus for the concept of an Islamic Barnstar Award, some editors would like to change the image for the award. I was just thinking you should be aware of this discussion because you have contributed to Islamic-related articles, received the Islamic Barnstar Award, or have contributed to the Islam-related Wikiprojects, etc.--72.48.104.52 16:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Join us at FB
Hello Pakistanis Wikipedians! Assalam-o-Alaikum, I hope you are enjoying editing Wikipedia and helping around. I want to join every Pakistani Wikipedian on facebook so I hope you would like to join us in our community. We would/could help each other and make Pakistani articles more better.

Join us:
 * Group: Pakistani Wikipedians
 * Page: Pakistani Wikipedians

And then sign my guestbook for memories.

Regards: --  Captain Wikipedia!     ( T - C  - G  ) 06:59, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Monuments - Pakistan

'''Hi !

Wiki Loves Monuments, the world's largest photography competition, will be taking place in Pakistan this September. The competition is all about capturing the cultural monuments and heritage sites of Pakistan and uploading these images on Commons to create an online repository which will be freely available to all.

Start taking photos of the sites enlisted here and upload them in September to be eligible for national and international prizes.

Email: contact@wikilovesmonuments.pk Official website: wikilovesmonuments.pk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WikiLovesMonumentsPK Posted by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC) on behalf of WikiProject Pakistan

Pakistani Cultural Heritage - Edit Drive
Hi !

Wikimedia Community User Group Pakistan is organizing an edit drive for Pakistani Wikipedians on Pakistani Cultural Heritage throughout the month of July. Top three contributors will be given a gift pack containing Wikipedia merchandise.

You can read the event details here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:14, 1 July 2014 (UTC) You are receiving this message as a member of WikiProject Pakistan

title: User talk:PassionInfinity


text:
Ipsea

Ipsea is a genus of the Orchid family (Orchidaceae), with three species that are found in India, Sri Lanka and Thailand.

Three species are recognized:

 * Ipsea malabarica (Rchb.f.) Hook.f. - southern India
 * Ipsea speciosa Lindl. - southern India, Sri Lanka
 * Ipsea thailandica Seidenf. - Thailand

The genus was erected by John Lindley in 1831 with the type species I. speciosa which was discovered in Nuwara Eliya, Sri Lanka in 1829 by James Macrae.

A similar species was found by Jerdon and was doubtfully considered as a new species by Robert Wight. This was later described as Ipsea malabarica, restricted to Silent Valley in northern Kerala. This endangered species with a very narrow distribution range grows on steep mountain slopes in moist rocky and sunny areas in association with Tripogon bromoides, T. ananthaswamianus, Eulalia sp., Fimbristylis sp., Utricularia coerulea, Drosera burmanni, Eriocaulon truncatum and other such plants. They flower from October to December.

title: Ipsea


text: User talk:80.170.62.44

title: User talk:80.170.62.44


text:
The Naked Truth (Russian TV program)

The Naked Truth (Голая правда) was a television program hosted by Svetlana Pesotskaya on Moscow's M1 (Russian television channel) television channel. The format was a ten-minute news bulletin, followed by a weather report.

After Communism, Russian television channels struggled to gain viewers because of low budgets and lack of programming. To attract viewers, the M1 channel began experimenting in November 1999 with having Pesotskaya strip while delivering the news. The concept was developed by M1 producer Sergei Moskvin, who stated that the show began life as a "one-off joke - a light-hearted send-up of Russian current affairs." Pesotskaya took off her clothes on camera daily with a pair of hands, strategically placed as the only thing covering her breasts. Golaya Pravda also featured a weather presenter/ecdysiast and other reporters who bared their breasts completely. The show featured interviews with members of the State Duma, who were "vying to appear on the show", speaking to topless political correspondents. The program was broadcast from premises on Pravda Street in Moscow, on the same street as the main building of the Pravda newspaper, the official newspaper of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and in the building formerly housing Pravda's health and recreation building.

Moskvin considered that besides the titillation value, the dissonance of watching a woman undress and hearing serious news appealed to the Russians' sense of the absurd. Pesotskaya stated that "The idea of The Naked Truth was born during the last parliamentary elections, which were a real circus, a real striptease show." The Naked Truth became M1's flagship show, at a time when the station was Moscow's fastest-growing television channel, and was nominated for a television award for humour. Daya Kishan Thussu in his work News as Entertainment: The Rise of Global Infotainment, considered that The Naked Truth's success stemmed from the Russian media's new focus on the entertainment genre, with journalists adopting the role of entertainer. Pesotskaya argued that "almost every other Russian newscast was just copied from Western television. We were the first to introduce a non-standard approach to the news. In the other shows, the news readers are too serious."

The owners of М1 stated that they had sold broadcasting rights to the idea in Britain and France. Forbes considered the program an example of Russia as a "country of bizarre television".

title: The Naked Truth (Russian TV program)


text:
Black River Technical College

Black River Technical College (BRTC) is a public community college in Pocahontas, Arkansas. It is named for the Black River which runs through the city. BRTC serves approximately 3,000 students annually through its degree programs, technical courses, and community educational offerings.

History
BRTC was established in 1972 as Black River Vocational Technical School on land donated by the City of Pocahontas, Arkansas. BRTC's original purpose was to provide vocational education for the Northeast Arkansas region. The college adopted its current name in 1991 and became an independent institution of higher education in 1993 at which time it offered associate degrees and college courses toward core requirements for four-year schools.

Governance
BRTC is governed by a seven-member board of trustees appointed by the governor. Each trustee serves a seven-year term which ends on June 30 of the final year.

Campus
The college's main campus is on Arkansas State Highway 304 E in Pocahontas, covering 246030 sqft in 20 buildings over 90 acre.

BRTC also has one offsite location in Paragould about 40 minutes away from Pocahontas that offers technical and general education credit and workforce training. It is also the location for the Greene County Industrial Training Center.

Academics
BRTC offers the Associate of Arts degree, which can be credited toward the first two years of a four-year degree program. The degree consists of a total of 60/61 hours in required courses and electives (which must be college transfer classes). BRTC also offers the Associate of Science degree and the Associate of Applied Science degree. Additionally, the college offers Technical Certificates, Certificates of Proficiency and adult education courses. BRTC offers many courses and some full programs through various forms of distance education; the Associate of Applied Science in Registered Nursing courses in nursing theory are done completely by interactive video as part of the Arkansas Rural Nursing Education Consortium (ARNEC), of which BRTC's program is a member.

The BRTC Fire Science program is offered in conjunction with the Arkansas Fire Academy.

BRTC is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. Its programs have also been approved by the Arkansas Department of Higher Education and the Arkansas State Board of Vocational Education.

The following programs have received additional accreditation or approval as shown below:

title: Black River Technical College