text:
Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 2

Writing style
is discordant with his or her actual chronological age and is concordant with the age of the partner."
 * "It is a chronophilia, i.e. a paraphilia in which the paraphile's sexuoerotic age

This seems to be psychobabble. Chronophilia is defined in its own entry as a "rarely-used term" and paraphilia is defined in its own entry as "recently used," so neither of these is really accepted psych language, right? Worse, it appears to be defining its term but is really only categorizing it; that's not very helpful. And what the hell is sexuoerotic age? I think this whole bit should be reduced to "...sometimes categorized as a type of chronophilia or paraphilia."

Also, I came here looking for information on pedophile pathology (frequency and pervasiveness of molestation) and found a whole lot of cultural norms crap. Pedophilia is unwanted sexual contact between adults and preadolescents; no culture tolerates that, so how is this section relevant? It should be moved to a page on teenage sexuality.

Also, I spellchecked this discussion, because, jeez.... --Tysto 20:58, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

``Pedophilia is unwanted sexual contact between adults and preadolescents``, which is your own POV, without research or basis. If only one child has enjoyed a sexual encounter with an adult in the history of time, then the above statement is untrue. --LuxOfTKGL 14:01, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

'If only one child....' Wow. talk about POV. So if 1 child enjoyed it and 10 million didn't it's all sunshine and fun?

 * More like, If only one child found it to be pleasurable, then it is not an objective evil like some claim it to be. If there is capcity for it to be harmless, then that should be mentioned also. --LuxOfTKGL 07:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Your logic doesn't fly. One child finding an act pleasurable does not make it harmless

 * Neither does it make it inherently harmful - which is my whole intent. --LuxOfTKGL 16:12, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

'Pedophilia is unwanted sexual contact between adults and preadolescents'
 * No. Pedophile is not a verb, it's a noun. To be a pedophile is to have the paraphillia of attraction to adolescents. Child molestation or child rape is the unwanted sexual contact betwixt adults and children.  Pedophilia is the attraction.  Most molesters are not paedoerotic in orientation.  149.169.123.127 21:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)LV

I heard there are ways of treating and assessing Pedophilia, could you please update to the article as well?

Definion is unclear
I think that the definion of Pedophilia is rather unclear. Taking the following sentence in concern:

It is a chronophilia, i.e. a paraphilia in which the paraphile's sexuoerotic age is discordant with his or her actual chronological age and is concordant with the age of the partner.

The sentence is rather incorrect. Pedophiles could not possibly sexually identify with the age of their partners, since boys and girls under the age of 13 are not sexually active, while, on the other hand, pedophiles are. I'd suggest that we remove the sentence above from the article.

The following definion is quite clear and more correct, and should make the article more clear if left alone, by removing the above sentence:

Pedophilia is the condition of people whose primary sexual attraction is toward prepubescent children.

If you disagree, please reply with suggestions. If there are no arguments, I will be updating the article page by removing the chronophilia reference and only leaving the pedophilia definion. Thanks. --dionyziz 23:19, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC).

 * I thought I had edited out the incorrect Chronophilia reference. I think I may have just done that in the Chronophilia article however. So, do as suggested, I have already done it (quite a few days ago) for the Chronophilia reference.

Too many different articles?
Nearly all pedophiles are childlovers. Should we really have different articles for them? The discussion is split up and there are many redundancies. There is also the danger that one article becomes the anti-article of the other, although Wikipedia should in the first place contain certain knowledge rather than the POVs of two sides.

 * Check out []. We have articles for fag, gay, homosexuality, queer, faggot (slang), etc. Childlover and pedophile are sufficiently different concepts to warrant separate articles. Of course, some content may need to be moved, duplicated, reedited, removed, branched into yet more articles, etc., but these are technical issues. Paranoid 20:46, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Nearly all people would say that the term "childlover" for pedophiles is an offense to every mother or father who loves his or her child without being sexually attracted to it. Make it a redirect to pedophilia. Get-back-world-respect 22:00, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The fact that some childlovers are ephebophilies is only a minor problem, because ephebophilia is less controversial, most problems are already covered by pedophilia.

I am also not sure whether we need an extra article Rind et al.. First child sexual abuse should cover the results of sexology about pedophilia and the place of Rind et al. within it. --Moonlight shadow 20:11, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * This has been already discussed at Talk:Rind et al., AFAIR. A separate article is needed because the story of the research and the ensuing controversy is interesting enough by itself, not just the findings related to child abuse. Paranoid 20:46, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * The fact that there already was discussion does not mean it has to end. There is still discussion, also note that now the article itself shows that the title is inappropriate since there is a second study Rind et al. mentioned. As nearly all the comments here show, there are disagreements about articles, which should not be made "conflict about user conduct". Get-back-world-respect 22:00, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I do think that there are probably too many articles here. In my opinion, there should be one page for pedophilia and this one page should have brief information about ephebophilia, nepiophilia, teleiophilia and so on. All of these other pages should be redirects.

The childlover page should probably be renamed either Childlove or Childlove Movement and used to discuss the movement itself, rather than the sexual orientation, which is discussed on Pedophilia.

The Rind, et al. page seems to have a lot of support, and it does probably merit its own page. After all, it is not very often that a research report causes such an uproar that the United States Congress decided to pass a resolution about it.

The only other page that is probably necessary is the List of Self-Identified Pederasts and Pedophiles. I would be in favour of incorporating this into the Childlover page, but that page is already getting quite long, so perhaps it is better to keep them separate. --Zanthalon 00:12, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * If really want to keep that many articles, then I will suggest that we make clear to the reader, what belongs to each article and where he will find a NPOV representation of a controversial topics. I think the conflict with Get-back-world-respect (Requests for comment/Get-back-world-respect) escalated, mainly because each controversy spread to more than one article. We certainly should not put the same external links in every article, but rather make sure that readers find the article and information that they are looking for. --Moonlight shadow 11:11, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * The list also needs a brief comment about self-identification - why they do it, why is it a big deal, etc. This might be done as a part of childlover page easier. As for the navigation, we can either add a template block with the links to other articles about child sexuality, or we can just link pretty much everything to pedophilia and child sexuality with these articles linking back to every other articles. Of course, additional links between articles are still welcome.

France and Brazil
It is not that the word does not have a negative connotation in those countries, today it has a negative connotation almost everywhere in the world. You have to read the whole paragraph to understand the meaning. Just before your quotation it said: "...it is sometimes used informally to describe people attracted to adolescents." That is what it meant, that in Brazil and France the word paedophilia is not used to refer informally to a relation of an adult with an adolescent. In the US it is very common that somebody would say that somebody is a pedophile because s/he was seducing a 16 yo. boy/girl. This is not a common use of the term in other countries. I have not been to Brazil, but at least in France it is very, very common to see adolescents going out on dates with adults with nobody frowning about it.

 * the article says: "In cultures or countries where love relationships or dates between adults and adolescents are socially or legally accepted (at least with parental consent) or are viewed with tolerance - such as France or Brazil, the word pedophilia is almost not used in this sense, either formally or informally."

 * I'm Brazilian and I can testify that this is widely inaccurate, and that the words "pedofilia" and "pedófilo" carry as much of a negative connotation as their English equivalents do.

 * Do you have a source to support the france claim? -- BMIComp (talk) 8 July 2005 21:00 (UTC)

Child sexual abuse
Yesterday I went to Berlin's meeting of Wikipedians and spoke with the head of the German Wikipedia organization, Kurt Jansson. He said that the problems with the articles related to pedophilia and abuse were well known for quite some time and probably started with a posting in a forum for pedophiles about Wikipedia as a great opportunity to spread the message that sex with adults is helpful for children. He already mentioned it in an interview with a newspaper in order to increase awareness of the problem. In the German pages the most notorious abuser is de:Benutzer:Mondlichtschatten, his English version - or at least one of them - is user:Moon_light_shadow. Here user:Zanthalon seems to play the main role. Checking their contribution lists tells easily which articles need a complete rewrite: List of self-identified pederasts and pedophiles, Childlove movement, pedophilia, Child sexuality, Child pornography, Child sexual abuse, Capturing the Friedmans, Rind et al.. I put the German articles on the list of articles that lack neutrality and need more care - the latter was immediately reverted by guess who. Please help taking care of the trouble. Get-back-world-respect 12:31, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Paragraph on condemnation of underage sex
I removed this paragraph:

 * Some western cultures today, in particular the United States, strongly condemn underage sex and regard it as a very serious crime, based on the idea that children are not sufficiently mature to be able to provide informed consent to sex and that sex with children is therefore statutory rape. In other countries, however, sexual relations with children are criminalised only when violence and coercion are involved.

The paragraph does not distinguish between pedophilia (the subject of this article) and ephebophilia, which it seems to refer to. The term "informed consent" is inappropriate, the issue in sexual matters is ability to give consent, period. The paragraph says "some western cultures" and singles out the US, and doesn't specify the "other" countries where underage sex is not criminal, nor the ages of those covered. And there is no citation whatever. -- Cecropia | Talk 06:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pedophile Liberation Front (Advocacy Links)
I wonder if there should be a notation that the Pedophile Liberation Front (Archive) is a dead site that has not been maintained in five years or so. I would think that a section on such links should only include current sites, therefore removing the PLF and including something in its place like MARTIJN or IPCE. --Zanthalon 18:15, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why does Underage sex redirect here and why nothing is written on the topic of sexual relations between children. In my opinion the term underage sex applies more to sex between children and adolescents than adults and children. Paranoid 10:37, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

NAWGLA
Somebody added a reference to a NAWGLA (North American Woman/Girl Love Association). As far as I know, no such group exists. I do know that a number of columnists have referred to Butterfly Kisses, a now-defunct website for women attracted to girls as a "NAMBLA auxiliary" or "something like a NAWGLA", but no such organization has ever actually been formed. -- 23:42, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Butterfly Kisses is no longer defunct. It can be reached at bk-girls.org --LuxOfTKGL 14:10, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Boylover or Girllover vs Those Attracted
Boylover and Girllover is a term that describes an individual who accepts one's belonging to a group with the certain sexuality... Clayboy has changed those two terms for ´those attached to boys´ and ´girls´ respectively if this is to stay than in the article on homosexuality homosexuals must be referred to as ´those attached to the individuals of the same sex´. Why use the definition of the word when the word already exists.

Beta_m

 * The problem is that the term "boylover" is not neutral. Some consider it to be a euphemism, some think it glorifies a mental condition. The term is largely a product of a world-wide online movement that wants control back of the terms used to refer to themselves (and rightly so, IMO), since "pedophile" sounds intensely dirty and criminal. "Boylover", in general, is not a socially accepted term to describe a pedophile attracted to boys, or even a well-known term for it. I myself, as a boylover, would very much like it to be an accepted term (in the hope that people would hear "boylover" and think "someone who is attracted to boys and has love for them, so he would never hurt them" instead of hearing "pedophile" and thinking "someone who eats little boys for breakfast"), but I cannot allow myself to work through Wikipedia to reach this goal. The best solution is to avoid specific terms altogether, and just describe those pedophiles who are attracted to boys as "those [pedophiles] who are attracted to boys". The boylove and girllove terms are, after all, documented in the Childlove movement article. I am not going to start a revert war, but I hope others will read this (even those who aren't prone to bias in the matter such as myself), and can reach a decision. Clayboy 22:56, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * OK, now thinking about that i have to say that i see your point. However, I still don't accept seeing ´boylover´ or ´girllover´ to be a euphemism, and I don't want to see a definition (even if the one that is not commonly used) to be substituted in the place of the actual word. Question is how to reach a compromise that everyone can live with? Beta_M
 * Whether or not you see the terms as euphemistic or not is not really relevant. For the record, I don't either, but many do, or would. "Those attracted to boys" is not a definition of boylovers. I don't believe a definition exists. For example, many boylovers (including myself) would not count as boylover someone who repeatedly abuses boys sexually, which is what the sentence we're discussing talks about. Others may (and will) disagree, arguing about what "abuse" means. (Replace every "boy" with "girl" if you want, I mean both) But, ultimately, the point is that "boylover" and "girllover" are sociolinguistic terms meant to create a social identity and change public perceptions. They seem out of place in the section, and really feels like an undercover POV attempt :-) Clayboy 21:15, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * OK... I actually am willing to admit that I was incorrect... I'm changing the sentence to what you wanted it to say... Beta_M

Child sexuality
I'm not sure where mr world respect gets his info, but he needs to read Child sexuality (w/o rewriting it, that is ;) Sam [Spade] 01:22, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pedophiles avoiding sex
If you insist on writing that "Most pedophiles avoid sex with children" you need to show that it is known how many pedophiles there are and how many of them avoid sex with children. As there is no compulsory registering for sexual preferences and as child sexual abuse is among the crimes with the highest rate of unrevealed offenses I doubt that you can provide the information. Get-back-world-respect 21:55, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You could perhaps get away with using the Kent State University Study 1995 (LORI L. OLIVER, GORDON C NAGAYAMA, RICHARD HIRSCHMAN)..

''A survey by Kent State University 1995 (LORI L. OLIVER, GORDON C NAGAYAMA, RICHARD HIRSCHMAN) was conducted on a sample of 80 normal male volunteers using the "penile plethysmograph". The team carried out hundreds of tests exposing them to nude female adult and child (<12 years) images.

Over 1/4 (32.5% in fact) of the subjects exhibited penile arousal to pedophilic stimuli that equalled or exceeded arousal to adult stimuli. 95% exhibited arousal to the female adult images (4 exhibited no arousal) 88.7% exhibited arousal to the female child images. (9 exhibited no arousal) 76.3% exhibited arousal to the contrasting images (Ten subjects exhibited no sexual arousal ) 3.7% of the subjects admitted to actual pedophilic masturbation and were removed from the sample results. ``

And from this compare the amount of known "sex offenders" who have a primary sexual attraction attraction to children against the 32.5% figure for a valid ratio.--LuxOfTKGL 14:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Michael Jackson is a pedophile who avoids sex, isn't he? →  Jarlaxle Artemis   02:23, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Merging Ephebophilia
Most of the content was shared between the two articles; the references and see-also sections needed merging; and ephebophilia only deserves its own article inasmuch as it is associated with pedophilia. Merged talk included below. +sj + 15:02, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well I feel that ephebophilia is important and deserves its own article. If, however, there is much redundancy between the articles then I would support the decision to merge them. In general however I think that they should be separate. 64.26.167.34 20:41, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why not merge Lesbian and Gay then? Ephebophilia is different and is a sufficiently broad topic to deserve its own article. When there is some shared content, parts of it can be moved into one article, parts of it can be modified to better reflect the specific article, etc. Paranoid 21:19, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The pages are not merged, but their Talk pages still were, with a redirect of Talk:Ephebophilia to this page. I'm undoing that. JAQ 23:01, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Moved Talk:List of self-identified pedophiles
Hello. List of self-identified pederasts and pedophiles was deleted per vfd discussion. I deleted the redirect List of self-identified pedophiles. Since there was a long talk page, Talk:List of self-identified pedophiles, instead of deleting it, I moved it to Talk:Pedophilia/List of self-identified pedophiles. I hereby announce that it's someone else's problem now. Wile E. Heresiarch 03:33, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't get it
Am I the only one who finds "Abuse is mainly a phenomenon of heterosexual and homosexual orientation" to be completely worthless? It would seem that someone originally made a jab at homosexuals, but someone later added the hetero part in. (Yes, I'm too lazy to look at the history). It's like saying that breathing is a phenomenon of males and females. -- PseudonympH 19:55, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

Clarification
In the context in which this definition is used, it would seem to be implying "adult orientation", as opposed to the base meaning of "hetero" (different) and "homo" (same) sex orientation. And would seem to be indirectly referencing quotes from various researched journals, and interviews, by various people, such as Kenneth Lanning (retired, FBI). If it is required, these can be dug up, but I'd rather not be the one to spend my time searching. --LuxOfTKGL 19:40, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

First paragraph
I have to contend the use of the word "condition" in the first sentence, though it is pedantically a "condition of a person". The word "condition" almost sounds as if it a psychiatric disorder! Of course, it is not. Secondly, I am not sure someone has to be primarily attracted to prepubescents to be called a paedophile, surely anyone who has a significant attraction (not necessarily primary) may be described as such? Later, the "Cultural Norms" section appears to deal with adolescent attraction - not paedophilia. An example in the first paragraph is the discussion of the acceptance of the attraction to those of "high school age" in Japanese culture, this age is over 13, right? --Oldak Quill 17:54, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My comment to the article about the 15-year-old porn star:

There should be strict distinctions between pedophilia (sexual attraction towards a child, meaning below 12 year old, which is the definition of a child) and sexual attraction towards a teenager (meaning 12-18 or 21 years old) Sexual attraction towards a person above 12/13 years of age is NOT pedophilia. 18 or 21 is the limit of mental maturity meaning you are eligible to vote, you are responsible for your crimes ... etc, NOT sexual maturity. Almost every person sexually matures at a much earlier age (about 12-15), so those two borders need to be separated. EVERYONE is sexually attracted or aroused by a sexually mature person of their preferred sex. It is in human nature, therefore it cannot be condemned. The only thing wrong with engaging in a sex with a teenager (sexually mature person meaning above at least 13 but below 18 or 21 years of age) is this persons MENTAL immaturity. This can be exploited and the younger person can be abused. Besides many teenage girls who consciously have sex with an adult person regret this later early loss of virginity in life. THAT is the only reason why sex with a teenager may be wrong, not this persons body which is mature with almost everyone by the age of 13-15. Remember the movie 13 Going on 30 with Jennifer Garner and ask yourself this question: What would be more wrong: To have sex with a 30-y-o woman in a body of a 13-year-old girl, or with a 13 yo girl in a body of a 30-y-o woman? Of course the answer is the latter.

Therefore the notion that the majority of population who would enjoyed watching porn videos of this 15-17-y-o girl are pedophiles or can even be condemned is twicely wrong and very stupid. First of all this is not a case of pedophilia but teenage pornography since the girl is not a child anymore and is sexually mature. And second thing is age distinction. There days young girls become sexually mature very early, so how are people able to distinct a 15-y-o girl if she looks like 19?

I would like to say that whomever wrote the above is a f*ing tool / closet case. Here is how you would know the difference. Imagine how you would feel if I came over to your house with your 19-year-old sister for dinner with the 'rents. And we f*ed. A lot. You would probably feel a little odd, but, hey, she's 19, I'm 21, it's all good.

Now, imagine how you would feel if I went up to you and said "I just f*ed your 15-year-old peach sister, and it was good."

Now, contrast the emotions you feel between the first paragraph and the second paragraph, and you have got an answer about how we are able to distinguish.

My two (informed) cents: half the sh*t that is being discussed is bullsh*t. Bullsh*t distinctions, bullsh*t bifurcations of clearly similar cases, bullsh*t semi-veiled justifications, etc.

Now how's that for a nuanced view? eh?

 * (edited for f*ing civility by 20:58, 2005 May 6 (UTC))

 * While I agree with the 'thinly veiled justifications' part of your comment, I think you missed the point of what he was trying to say. The reason you or I would get angry about our 15 y/o sister being violated is due to her mental and emotional immaturity - she lacks the emotional and/or mental maturity to make an informed decision as to whether or not she consents to the act - thus she can be 'taken advantage of'.  The point he was trying to make is that there is nothing abnormal about a heterosexual male finding a sexually mature teenaged female attractive.  You could stand a 15 year old and a 19 year old next to one another and have a hard time telling their age apart - that's why bars require ID.

Not really.. just shows you have no issues with 19yos doing something that 15yos are legally able to do in a few countries.--LuxOfTKGL 14:33, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

section "Cultural norms"
is more related to "Ephebophilia", I think we should move it from her to the right place. --Haham hanuka 14:14, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, what is written on French & francophone countries is only based on a few movies/songs. Art does not always reflect reality. Adult/child relationships are not approved of in France, and adult/teenager relationships are usually frowned upon. Films are not reality.

Japanese paedo situation is not so funny!
Forget about anime with high pink-factor miniskirt schoolgirls of 4 foot legs. Japanese paedo is bloody serious.

The 36-year-old newspaper delivery man Kobajasi Kauru asked to be executed while tried for the Nov. 2004 murder-rape of a seven-year-old girl. He took mobile camera phone pictures of her cadaver and sent them to his mother with a message he will kill her sister. The guy said he was proud to have gained national fame and he has achieved his life's aim and has no reason to live any more. Previously he was imprisoned for attempted murder of a 5 year-old-girl in 1991 and several counts of child molestation.

Also don't forget the kindergarten massacres in Japan! The Wiki article should make it clear that paedos are murderous animals and deserve no mercy. We must eliminate them from the human gene pool.

 * Just so you know, this is murder case you've described... we can worry about the violations of sexual moralities and other obsessions of westerners at a later time. Sweetfreek 21:33, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, Sweetfreek, the moron who started this section comes from a hysterical country, most likely the UK, where hateful violent people just like him tried to burn a family to death, including three young children, because they "love paedos."

http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/204/204194_lucky_to_be_alive_after_arson_attack_.html 11:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Blatent disregard for sense
"Also don't forget the kindergarten massacres in Japan! The Wiki article should make it clear that paedos are murderous animals and deserve no mercy. We must eliminate them from the human gene pool."

Yet we can bring up more than a hundred fold times the amount of murders, rapes, physical, mental, sexual abuse perpetraited by non-pedophiles against children (for instance: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/girls_dead). --LuxOfTKGL 19:42, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Schoolgirl Image
Does anyone else find the image of the schoolgirl and the caption, "Pedophiles are sexually attracted to images like these" just a tad not neutral, not to mention really strange? Flillibridge 05:55, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is weird, not to mention even technically incorrect - pedophiles are attracted to girls, not images. And it doesn't add anything useful to the article. Paranoid 06:33, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, I thought it was a tad funny. It seems to be taken as more of a tongue-in-cheek "Brass Eye" style joke (infact I think BrassEye did something similar in their "fakeumentary"). --LuxOfTKGL 13:34, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Should be "typically aroused by images such as this" or "attracted to youngsters such as this girl", I suppose. How old is that girl anyway?  I notice that the image title is "Pedo_test.jpg".  Is it really supposed to be a test?  Chameleon 16:09, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

This particular image is poor indicator what pedophiles are attracted to. The image features an exposed part of legs close to crotch. This is sufficient to arouse most heterosexual males. So I suggest it removed. Japanese pedophile pornography abounds in images without any hints of sexual provocation. Mikkalai 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with this. This picture has no relevance and seems more like a joke than anything.  I don't think an article on pedophilia necessarily needs an image (certainly not this one), unless someone can find something relevant and accurate.  Flillibridge 22:13, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Advocacy of Pedophilia
Is there any criteria for a site to be listed in the Advocacy of Pedophilia section?

At least, could a person who "revises" the section by removing links, at least provide a reason on the discussion page.

--LuxOfTKGL 20:45, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Why are there no sites condemning Paedophilia? Are we allowed to add other government and psychology research that question the rigid definition in this page, or if they are contradicting the pro-padeophile slant of this entry, will they be removed? And why is noone challenging the false idea that paedophiles do not molest children??

Why is this site in here? http://www.p-loog.info/English/behaviour_therapy.htm

This is not backed up scientifically - one study with 90 men. No information on the proper sources/controls. If you look at the homepage this site is a paedophile campaigning site and should not be included to illustrate *scientific facts*

Literature

 * Added a literature link to the IPT-Forensics article [Special Problems with Sexual Abuse Cases], however, I am unsure whether or not this would be more appropriate elsewheres (for instance in any Sexual Abuse sections instead). --LuxOfTKGL 20:50, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

POV?
''Sexual acts between adults and prepubescent children are both a taboo and a crime in many cultures because, among other reasons:

1. prejudice against childlovers;''

This seems like POV to me, but before deleting it I thought I should ask for other opinions. Ketsuban (is 1337) 19:39, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chronophilia rubbish
Where did that Chronophilia rubbish come from, and how did it remain in the Pedophilia article for so long? Pedophilia has nothing to do with Chronophilia, other than it being classed as a paraphilia. --LuxOfTKGL 21:54, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

pædophilia
I propose that the term "pædophilia" is invalid, and does not exist.

Therefore it should not be part of the article as such a word does not exist. --LuxOfTKGL 17:42, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? You'll have to be more specific.  Are you saying that the ligature is always incorrect, incorrect in this particular case for some reason, no longer current English.... or what?  — Chameleon 19:35, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * the use of æ for ae (a digraph) is simply a pretentious typographical convention; first recorded in the 16th century, it has now fallen out of use: there is no justification for this. Neither Webster's Third New International Dictionary nor the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary use it. --LuxOfTKGL 20:46, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * No, it wasn't just pretention. It was introduced into mediæval (heh-heh) Latin with the helpful role of distinguishing between the diphthongs æ and œ in words like pædophilia and subpœna and the separate vowels in words like poeta.  It still has that helpful role in English.  It is true that the ancient Romans didn't use it (they wrote SVBPOENA) and that people these days usually don't use it (not many people have a keyboard like mine that allows them to be typed straight in).  However, the ligature in English is not entirely dead and buried, and deserves a brief mention.  — Chameleon 21:57, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * and you still call yourself Chameleon?

Medical Treatment?
This article needs a section on the history of the treatment of pedophiles, and current available treatment options. -- MSTCrow 22:17, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Does it? Is there treatment? Last I heard, paedophilia not a disease. It may be seen as reprehensible, but that does not make it a disease, and does not mean that 'treatment options' exist.
 * Feel free to make more specific suggestions though. -- Ec5618 22:52, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * Although it isn't a disease, many people think of it being so (as they used to with homosexuality) and therefore there are treatments. We should get some info on this.  — Chameleon 23:14, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Treatment or Cruel and Unusual Punishment? Chemical Castration and the like. --LuxOfTKGL 00:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uh hello, homosexuality is not classified as a disease and frankly is not destructive. Pedophilia is incurable and mostly destructive and frankly something society can do without. The huge power gap between a child and the adult in the relationship is simply unacceptable. A boy or a girl in such a relationship will grow up mentally and emotionally damaged and can only recover if they were fortunately to be borne with the strength to do so. The child who continues a relationship with the molester will simply grow up to be half human/half vegetable.

The standard punishment for the sexual molestation of anyone before they hit puberty should be at the minimum lifelong incarceration because such sexual desires can not be cured just as Jeffrey Dahmer could not be cured of his desire for eating dead young men due probably to his obsession with roadkill when he was in puberty.

 * Uh hello, shame you never signed your name - "Pedophilia is incurable and mostly destructive"... this statement is fallacious. "frankly something society can do without" - society can do without a lot of things, like TV, Internet, Radio, your point? "The huge power gap between a child and the adult in the relationship is simply unacceptable" - agreed, Parents should be banned from being around children... "A boy or a girl in such a relationship will grow up mentally and emotionally damaged" - another fallacious statement. Surely you can come out with some reasoning - --LuxOfTKGL 5 July 2005 07:58 (UTC)

Publicized Case
Why is this being removed?:

 * "One highly publicized case of pedophilia is that of Michael Jackson."

His case is highly publicized. But admins keep calling it "vandalism," which doesn't make any sense. Perhaps they are just Michael Jackson fans that completely ignore fact. → Jarlaxle Artemis   02:19, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

 * I think the problem is that you can interpret that sentence in two ways; one case where pedophilia happened, or one case where there was an accusation of pedophilia. The most direct interpretation seems to be the first. If you fudge the sentence a bit so the second interpretation becomes explicit, the problem with it will probably go away. --cesarb 02:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The case is of child molestation, not pedophilia. Pedophilia is not a crime. 24.224.153.40 16:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Catholic church paragraph
I took out the paragraph about the Catholic church's teachings on discrimination. For one, the entirety of the paragraph was non-neutral--it was purportedly about the effect of religion on cultural norms but then only treated upon one single religion, and treated on it very favorably I might add. For two, the paragraph was about various societal norms regarding pedophilia and ephebophilia, not about discrimination--the author only put in a short parenthetical blurb about societal norms to barely tie it in.

I'd have no problem if this were rewritten to reflect the actual discussion at hand, that being the Catholic church's views on pedophilia, ephebophilia, and pederasty. In fact, it'd probably be best for several major religions to be represented, and for this to be its own section, not lumped into a section that deals mostly with cultural norms seperated by geography and nationality.

 * JarlaxleArtemis, could you give a clarification as to why you reverted my change? I think I've laid out some pretty good points here about why that particular paragraph doesn't belong until it's rewritten.  It is referring to the Catholic Church's views on discrimination; other paragraphs in that section are referring to the views of various worldwide cultures on pedophilia.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the article it's part of. --Kuronekoyama 03:33, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Condition
Though I can not come up with anything better, it would be appreciated if someone could change the word "condition" in the opening sentence to something more unsubjective (if I can use that word); "condition", in my mind, implies a disease or a disorder of some kind which pedophilia certainly is not. 24.224.153.40 28 June 2005 19:01 (UTC)

 * How about "state"? --Neural 29 June 2005 01:52 (UTC)

Support TAFKAPS
sorry... but please support this person now.

UK law has lost its sense of morality, and justice and are prosecuting people for doing nothing.

See Here.

 * Just so were clear on this, his case is not only common but standard fare. Guilty until proven innocent is the law for those who are accused of immoral things... mortals have no hope against government almighty.

 * Actually, that is NOT this case. That was his Previous case, for which he did time. He is now off the SO register (since april), this is an entirely different case to that.

Foreign language usage
Don't French and Brazillian folks usually use words in French and Portugeuse, not English words? The note on how this word is used in those countries seems out of place. Perhaps this is supposed to refer to an obvious cognate in these languages? -- Beland 07:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Treatment!!!
There are ways of treating and assessing Pedophilia, could you please update them as well! Also I feel that this article seem focusing on the overall 'movement' of Pedophilia rather then the mental issue. I guess It is important to let people focus on the issue that Pedophilia is a mental illness and there are treatments or assessments for people with Pedophilia!

The APA is still not really sure whether it is an illness or not, and would, if not for Public pressure (which should have no impact on what it puts - sadly it does as even they have to be funded) have removed it from the DSM IV. There aren't treatments to pedophilia, that assertion is ludicrous.

NOT REALLY SURE??? And what manner of pressures that the APA got from? Speaking collectively that people with sexuality disorder(including homosexuality) are mentally ill in some way. It just more and more of these abnormal people complaining about the human right thing (which is pushing their boader further and further) I guess that more and more people giving in to what those abnormal people think and beliefs

 * I would suggest to also add treatment section to eating, sleeping, national liberation, and Atheism articles. In fact i think that if somebody is doing something that at the same time are doing less than 50% of the population of the Earth they should be treated... Beta m (talk)

Mentall illness or preferance
In reading some of the articles I noticed how some view (right or wrong) the tendency as a mental illness. I also know that homosexuality was seen as an illness (right or wrong) up until recently. Some studies show that some have a natural tendency towards a certain age group, for instance it is found that an unusual number of pedophiles are left handed or more active in certain parts of the brain, and that unlike popular belief, having been abused as child is not a prerequisite for pedophilia. In light of this, I am wondering of you belief this is a question of society not being ready for this as opposed to pedophilia being wrong. Does a society that legalizes sodomy and gay marriage pass judgment on what is morally right or wrong? Aren't these views subjective? Can definition of "adulthood" change just as definition of marriage did?

 * Society is very confused about this. For instance, if you sleep with a fifteen year old on the night before his/her sixteenth birthday, he/she is a "child" and you are considered a pedophile. If you wait a few seconds for the clock to tick into place at midnight, he/she is now no longer considered a child and you are no longer a pedophile.

 * What has changed in those few seconds or days to the fifteen year old that he is "suddenly" mature enough to partake of sexual affection?

 * The whole thing is just daft. I know thirteen year olds who, in terms of their mentaility/intellect/groudedness are far more mature than some 40 year olds. This is more related to society trying to promote the myth of the asexual child, I believe. Please see the child sexuality article.

 * Pedophiles are merely the last remaining acceptable scapegoats in our "politically correct" western societies. Pedophiles now fill the role that homosexuals used to fill, as victims for "the mob."

 * And may Big Brother strike me down if I'm wrong about this. (lol *tempts fate*)

 * Be careful with that Big Brother thing. At one time i have started a discussion forum online about this particular issue. I wasn't advocating any pov, in fact i've provided more resources that showed how dangerous it can be to have sex with the child (note: having sex with adolescents is actually not pedophilia). And when asked about my opinion i have given a lengthy one saying that coersion to have sex is in fact rape, and that i believed that the child has to be protected at all costs. However, simply because i have allowed the discussion some neo-fascists have decided to start collecting the data about me with the idea to send it to cops for "propper investigation".
 * I don't remember but somebody once said that "homosexuals are niggers of the 20th century", well i think that in 21st century childlovers will become niggers, in some places to be called a pedophile is already more insulting than the "n-word". Beta m (talk)

Maybe it is these neo-fascists who should be "investigated" for inciting hatred and violence against anyone with an opinion that differs from theirs. If these closet Hitler-worshippers are the kind of people who prop up the populist anti-sex hysteria in our culture, perhaps that says something about its true nature.

Far from sex being harmful, all the scientific evidence appears to suggest that it is sexual repression in childhood that leads to many mental illnesses, including the production of sexual murderers (and perhaps neo-fascists (hehe)).

It seems that the psychological harm inflicted on kids who have sex is from the shame poured upon them by a sick society that still equates sex to "sin" and "evil".

My view, btw, is not informed by being a pedophile but by having positive sexual experiences with adults when I was a child.

I would not advocate penetrative sex with anyone below about 9-10, and I happen to think that some legal protection is useful. However, the hysteria surrounding this subject is the true culprit, I believe, in creating the various psychological casualties we read about.

Child rapists are the worst type of monster there is, imo. However, consensual sexual contact between an adult and a child hurts nobody until society gets involved and begins brainwashing everyone involved into seeing this as the most shameful act possible. The peddlers of shame are the real "evil-doers" in this situation.

Neo-fascists you are more than welcome if you want to "get me investigated". I have done nothing illegal, except hold this opinion. Perhaps if Orwellian "though crimes" become illegal, you'll have me. But until then...

 * 'I don't remember but somebody once said that "homosexuals are niggers of the 20th century", well i think that in 21st century childlovers will become niggers, in some places to be called a pedophile is already more insulting than the "n-word". '

 * I've lost count of the number of times I've read the term "convicted pedophile" in the newspapers in the past few months. The common perception seems to be that having an attraction to children is itself a crime. Any attitude that stigmatises people for what they are, rather than what they have done, is extremely dangerous.

 * There is a very distinct "witch-hunt" mentality in our society that is frighteningly legitimized by law and government, and I am scared to think what will happen to those unfortunate enough to have an exclusive sexual attraction to children.

 * I have heard pedophilies described a "subhuman scum" in right-wing newspapers, and the language is terrifyingly similar to that dreamed up by the Nazis in their propaganda war against jews.

 * Little is mentioned of the fact that the majority of pedophiles are celibate, "in the closet" out of neccessity, and are loving/caring people who gladly abstain from sex rather than cause even indirect (socially created) harm to any child. --Neural 13:07, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

In reading the American Psychiatric Association web site I found out that the APA is recommending decriminalization of all sexual tendencies which are forbidden either for cultural or religios reasons, such as voyeorism, pedophilia, s&m, etc. as they feel there is no scientific evidence for these tendencies to be considered criminal, and a similar paper 30 years ago or so paved the way for current gay liberation. So my question is should the subject of pedophilia be treated as a legal question or a moral question. If it's legal, then I can certaily see it becoming decriminalized in the next 10 years along side polygamy. If it is a moral issue we should take a step back and look at many "legal" and conventional practices in our current society as well.

 * Okay, I assume you are refering to consensual sexual contact. Sex obtained by coercion or force should always be considered both illegal and immoral.

 * Now, if we are to view pedophilia as a moral issue, for me it entirely hinges on what science has to say about "harm". Is the harm to children caused by sexual intimacy with adults or by the hysteria evoked in everryone surrounding the child, telling the child that the act is shameful, wicked, unnatural, etc? What actually causes the psychological damage we hear about?

 * If it can be objectively shown that harm is caused directly by the sexual contact (this is doubtful unless we are talking about full penetration with someone much younger), then I would view the act as immoral.

 * If it is shown that society and its extremly negative view of pedophilia causes the psychological harm to the child, then the consensual act is not truly immoral, but the anti-sex hysteria is immoral.

 * Only objective research can answer these questions with any degree of finality. At the moment, I am undecided, but swinging in favour of decriminalisation where full consent is present and as long as all involved are happy.

http://logicalreality.com/openbb/read.php?TID=80

So I see in the discussion above references to the fact that if there is attraction to a young girl as long as ther is no penetration is OK? So what is acceptable? Isn't that a technicality I mean if it's wrong to do that then isn't wrong to do anything at all?

 * Once again, the moral question comes down to harm. For my reasoning, see above. If it is directly harmful, it is wrong. If not, it is not. So in answer to your question: not neccesarily.

NPOV does not mean condoning
Paedophilia and pederasty cannot just be condoned, and NPOV does not mean we should justify those who "love" children because Greeks did. No one must be lead to understand that paedophilia is good for one culture and bad for another. Is killing good for your culture cand bad for mine? No, but we are heading in thios direction. A child who is abused he/she will live this ordeal for the rest of his/her life. Humans are not bonobos, and the accounts of the parents, children, clergymen, psychologists who actually deal with that might be quoted in this article. Let us all put links on this page to associations and law enforcement agencies that put pederasts behind bars. Please spare victims the photos. Killing childhood is not a matter of opinion. --Wikipedius 20:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * "Killing childhood is not a matter of opinion" - but stating that all pedophiles do is kill childhood is. It would actually help if you bothered to read the article you criticise.--LuxOfTKGL 20:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Neither does it mean condemning and/or sermonising. Who are we to say it is bad? Please read the murder article, nowhere does it suggest killing is bad, though its illegality is mentioned. -- Ec5618 20:53, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * Not judging anyone, don't get me wrong. I did not mean it. But some issues as child molestation (as abuse) are not a matter of opinion. Paedophilia is not a crime, and is by no means pederasty, far from me to say that! But i don't think it should be indulged in. I know you agree with me on this. If i am wrong about the article not being impartial, so much the better for wiki. But it still needs a few good links. --Wikipedius 22:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry, but providing too many links to negative pages goes against NPOV, is not our job (WP:NOT), and is a very bad idea, just as providing an abundance of links to sites and organisations that aim to 'cure' homosexuals is a bad idea in the article on homosexuality. Regardless of whether we feel it should be indulged in (should homosexuality be indulged in? Should breaking wind?) we should neither condone nor condemn it. And if, by failing to condemn paedophilia we appear to be condoning it, then so be it.
 * We make mention of the fact that in most modern cultures child-adult sexual activity is considered harmful to the child, and is illegal. But nowhere should we appear to be condemning anything, even child molestation. Remember, we take no sides, ever. And in some cases, one man's abuse is another's loving commited relationship.
 * Nevertheless, if you feel the page needs a link to a clearly anti-paedophile site, please try to provide it. It's true, the article doesn't contain links to negative sites, though it does to positive and academic sites. Though try to find one that does not rely solely on emotional rhetoric (save our children!) or miscategorisation (padeophilia refers solely to an attraction of an adult to a prebubescent child). Try to find one worthy of representing the sane and calm opponents of child-adult sexual activities. -- Ec5618 22:34, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * "Try to find one worthy of representing the sane and calm opponents of child-adult sexual activities."

 * I have noticed that anti-pedophile groups are rarely ever either sane or calm - this is probably why nobody can find a worthy anti-pedophile link to put up. Anti-molestation is one thing. Anti-pedophilia is quite another. Btw, on the previous discussion about legal issue vs moral issue, I advocate a serious rethink of the legal AOC for consensual sex. I find it absurd that someone 15 years, 11 months, 29 days, and 59 seconds cannot legally (or morally, according to some) have sex without his/her older partner theoretically going to jail, but one second later the legal and moral issues suddenly dissapear. The legal age is an arbitrary number dreamed up by old fuddy-duddies who thought sex was some great doom. Sexual activity, when all parties are willing and happy, hurts nobody. Anti-sex hysteria, misguided taboos and repression hurt many.--195.93.21.101 02:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I do not think condemning pederasty is hysteria, if you meant pederasts by "anti-pedophiles". There may be much sanity in being aware that this is important. 1 in 5 children on the internet is sexually molested (abuse may also be verbal). That is why parents are so emotional about the issue when you talk about it. The question is not whether one should come up with all the links against child abuse all of a sudden, but why those who are well-read on the subject did not in the first place. It is in the interest of the article itself (and wiki), and no one here can ever think of providing more than a couple of links. Of course, these are only my opinions, i am biased. But who isn't? --Wikipedius 23:05, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Exactly; it is an extremely emotive issue, and most people will have an opinion one way or the other. Mine is based on having positive sexual experiences when I was quite a bit below the legal age. I wasn't "groomed", coerced or manipulated into sex. I went into a relationship with a wonderful, sweet, and sensitive man with my eyes wide open. He, in fact, was the reluctant one because of my age. With my cherished memories, I could never be anti-pedophile. However, I am of course totally anti-rape, anti-molestation, and basically aginst any related thing that is non-consensual. I still think the legal AOC needs a major rethink, and the taboos about child sexuality are harmful rather than helpful. And I do think there is a pedophile-witch-hunt mentality that says all pedophiles are rapists that need to be hunted down. This is the dangerous hysteria I speak of. Pedophiles seem to be the last remaining acceptable scapegoat for all of societies ills - in this case, persecution is actively encouraged by our culture. -Kate --195.93.21.101 01:47, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The fact you mention is interesting. From what i underststand you were an adult at that age. I remember hearing this on tv not long ago: a 40-year-old teacher in Rome fell in love with his student, a 19-year-old girl and she returned his feelings. They exchanged lots of love letters. But when he told his wife he wanted to leave her, there was a fight and he shot her. At this point, the whole thing was widely hinted at as pedophilia. Here we are speaking of grown-ups though. But, probably a consensual adult may be one who displays fully-developed sexual traits? Some people at 15 are children but others may well ahead of their age. My mom says that when she was at high school a mature teacher fell in love with his teen student (15-17, could not say). Their relationship was kept secret until she reached 21 and they got married. They were a happy couple. Since he was well-off and a bachelor however, nobody complained. --Wikipedius 11:13, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * From what i underststand you were an adult at that age. - at what age? She gives no age. --LuxOfTKGL 11:22, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * What is the point of your question? We don't need to shout here, i hope you will be civil enough to do that. We've been talking of hysteria and witch-hunting, and i see a lot of it on the internet against Christians these days. I hope we are allowed our point of view, just like anybody else. End of the story. --Wikipedius 18:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Lux's point is very clear: you mistakenly say Kate was an adult after she clearly stated being well below legal age, and thus NOT an adult, a point crucial to Kate's post. His 'shouting' is not to silence you but his angst at a grievous error. It is not a harmless error, either, since people with destructive agendas seize upon precisely this type of grievous errors to further their goals of destruction. 12:29, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for responding so calmly. Often, the mere mention of the P-word can get everyone in a fenzy of negative emotion - which I see as part of the problem. As to ages, etc, I'm afraid that I'm reluctant to even go into it with any details. My IP is already listed here, and I know how fanatical people can be. I don't want to add any more info that could help pinpoint anyone involved. I'm not worried for myself, being the younger partner, but I cannot risk the man I mentioned getting some kind of backlash because I discussed it on a website. Although we rarely even see each other now, I still have a lot of love for him. I would never testify against him in a court - in fact I would testify for the defense if anything like that happened - but I am worried about vigilantes. All I will say is that I was not "legally" an adult and therefore legally underage when we had sexual intimacy. Thanks everyone. --Kate--195.93.21.101 03:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Culture norms
Misleading text in this section was moved to Ephebophilia. Don't put it back here. --Haham hanuka 12:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

 * After looking at the text, I agree - the sections you've moved do belong in Ephebophilia, not here. Good call.--Neural 21:56, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't. Attraction to 13 year olds can still be considered pedophilia (pubescence does not happen at any specific age), and lolicon often depicts prepubescent girls. How is this misleading? 24ip | lolol 17:46, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 2


text:
Talk:The Sandman (short story)

Links
The link to wikisource is broken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.181.82.15 (talk • contribs) 2 October 2005
 * it's ok now Mooncow 00:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Das Öde Haus
Das Öde Haus (The Bleak House) is a novella around 80 pages long, and according to a comment at Talk:Bleak House appears to have been published in conjunction with Der Sandmann. As such, it would be one of the Nachstücke mentioned in the main article. Was it ever published separately? Have there been any translations of this work into English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.177.27.31 (talk • contribs) 3 February 2006

Narrative summary
I have redrafted the narrative summary, and taken the liberty of removing the "cleanup" tag.Mooncow 00:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This seems far to detailed to be a plot summary and serves more as a retelling of the story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.165.193 (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Interpretations
A "cleanup" tag was added by Donama in May 2006. I don't currently have time to redraft this section. Mooncow 00:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

lothar-lothario
in both the german versions i have read (Reclam and Suhrkamp) Nathanael's friend and Clara's brother is named Lothar, not Lothario. is this a common anglicization (Lothario is hardly a common name)? or the name in the most common translation? Jieagles 02:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

 * A good point. Lothar is the name in the original German. Lothario is a recognised name in English, though not a common one, while Lothar is not. Lothario is used by some translations, although the one referenced in this article uses Lothaire. As we are discussing the original, not a particular translation, I agree with Pfahlstrom that the original German names are best, and have changed Lothario to Lothar throughout. Mooncow 23:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Is Superman's adversary Lex Lothar a reference to Lothar? 79.134.37.83 (talk) 12:56, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Coppola, eye cavities?
I don't think "coppola" has anything to do with "eye cavities", could someone help find a source for this relation or edit it out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.144.16.127 (talk) 10:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:The Sandman (short story)


text:
Rahmi M. Koç Museum

The Rahmi M. Koç Museum is a private industrial museum in Istanbul, Turkey dedicated to the history of transport, industry and communications. Rahmi M. Koç, member of one of the wealthiest families in Turkey and retired chairman (currently the honorary chairman) of the Koç Group, founded the museum in 1991, which was opened on December 13, 1994. The museum is located in the suburb of Hasköy on the northern shore of the Golden Horn and situated in two historical buildings connected to each other. It is open to public every day except Monday. The museum's general manager is Ertuğrul Duru.

A sister museum, but smaller in size, the Çengelhan Rahmi M. Koç Museum opened its doors in Ankara in 2005, followed by a third Rahmi M. Koç Museum on Cunda Island in 2014.

History
A visit of Rahmi Koç to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan, United States inspired him to create this museum. The Koç Foundation bought the first museum building in 1991, which was left derelict and seriously damaged after a roof fire in 1984. This building (in Turkish: Lengerhane), was initially used for casting anchors and chains for the Ottoman Navy, during the rule of Sultan Ahmed III (1703–1730). It was restored during the reign of Selim III (1789–1807) before passing into the ownership of the Ministry of Finance in the Ottoman Empire. During the Republican era, the State Monopoly and Tobacco Co. then used the building as a warehouse until 1951. The Koç Foundation spent two and a half years for the restoration work of this Class II category historical monument.

In July 2001, the museum opened a new building to improve the display of its collection of industrial and scientific artifacts. This new section was a disused historical dockyard, founded in 1861 by the Ottoman maritime company Şirket-i Hayriye for the maintenance and reparation works of its own ships. The Koç Foundation bought the building in 1996.

The two buildings are on the same road, on opposite sides: the dockyard part of the complex is on the shores of the Golden Horn. A glass-sided ramp leads down to the basement exhibition area of the Lengerhane.

Permanent exhibitions
Most of the items exhibited in the museum are selected from Rahmi Koç's private collection. Other objects are either borrowed from or donated by various organizations and individuals. Original machines and their replicas, scientific and mechanical items make up the basis of the museum's exhibits.

 * Road transport: Racing cars, sports cars (between 1953 and 1986), sedan/coupé and convertible cars (1898–1994), utility vehicles (1911–1963), commercial vehicles (1908–2002), motorcycles (1908–2003),
 * Rail transport: Old Istanbul tram (1934), Sultan’s carriage (1867), steam engine locomotive (1913), narrow-gauge steam locomotive (1930), Istanbul Tünel carriage (1876), Henschel steam locomotive (1918),
 * Marine: Cargo vessel, motorboat, lifeboat (1951), Bosphorus passenger ferryboat, outboard motor collection, amphibious car (1961), submarine (1944): TCG Uluçalireis (S 338) (former USS Thornback (SS-418)), Kısmet, Sadun Boro's sloop, he circumnavigated the globe with it as the first ever Turkish sailor,
 * Aviation: Aircraft (1941–1979), aviation parts collection, aircraft engines (1928–1979), large and small-scale aircraft models,
 * Engineering: Ferry boat steam engine (1911), olive oil factory, portable stationary steam engine (1872), gas engine, wood saw, marine compound steam engine (1900),
 * Communications: Rotary dial telephone (1920), phonograph (1903), Thomas Edison telegraph patent model (1876), valve amplifier (1936), zoetrope (1835),
 * Scientific instruments: Wimshurst machine, grand orrery, marine chronometer, Strasbourg turret clock,
 * Models and toys: Hands-on: Cutaway car, aeroplane, scientific experiments and cutaway domestic goods.

Temporary exhibitions

 * "Leonardo, the universal genius" was the title of the first ever temporary exhibition featuring a collection of 40 full-sized artworks, all created from the original drawings made by Leonardo da Vinci. The reproductions of the machines are envisaged in the famous "Codex Leicester", a collection of largely scientific manuscripts of Leonardo written between 1478 and 1513. The exhibits were grouped in five broad categories: Mechanisms and the four ancient elements of nature: Earth, Water, Air and Fire. The "Mechanisms" section included inventions pertaining to everyday life such as gears and lifting systems. A printing press and robot design were displayed at the "Earth" section. At the "Air" section, parachutes and flying machines like the ornithopter bicycle were on display. The "Fire" section displayed machines of war, cannons and machine guns; while water-related inventions such as Archimedes' screw made up the "Water" section. All displays were in functioning condition, and the majority could be operated by the visitors themselves, making the interactive exhibition cultural, educational, and also fun. The show was held from November 1 to December 31, 2006. A few items were also on show at the Çengelhan Rahmi M. Koç Museum in Ankara.

title: Rahmi M. Koç Museum


text:
Ricardo Tavarelli

Ricardo Javier Tavarelli Paiva (born 2 August 1970) is a former Paraguayan footballer, who played as a goalkeeper.

Career
Tavarelli started his career in the youth divisions of Tacuary and then moved to the youth divisions of Club Olimpia, where he made his debut in the first team squad in 1992, playing the Torneo Republica. In Olimpia he would go on to win several national and international championships, becoming a fan-favorite. Tavarelli was a pivotal part of the 2002 Olimpia team that won the Copa Libertadores. His skills helped Olimpia win two key penalty shoot-outs against Grêmio of Porto Alegre (semi-finals) and São Caetano (finals). In 2004, he played for Grêmio of Brazil with little success. Tavarelli returned to Club Olimpia and also had a brief sting playing for Sportivo Luqueño before finally retiring. He earned the nickname "Mono" (monkey) because of his quick goalkeeping skills. He was also called "Lettuce Hands".

Tavarelli was also part of the Paraguay national team in the 2002 FIFA World Cup, playing the team's first two matches following the suspension of captain José Luis Chilavert prior to the tournament.

Tavarelli's sister, Giselle, is married to Paraguayan footballer Roque Santa Cruz.

title: Ricardo Tavarelli


text:
Talk:Sicilian octave

Merge?
I don't know whether Sicilian octave will grow much (though examples could and probably will be added), but the problem with merging it to ottava rima is that they're really not the same thing. The rhyme scheme is different, of course, but more importantly, the Sicilian octave (whatever one's opinion on the controversy of its origin) clearly developed in relation to the emergence of the sonnet, whereas the ottava rima has nothing to do with the sonnet; it is related to the canzone. I'll admit it's not an earth-shaking issue, but I think a merge would be inaccurate. Please note also that the Sicilian octave article was created as part of the WikiProject Missing articles, which means that other encyclopedias have had stand-alone articles on the term. Chick Bowen 14:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

 * No comments since October, no consensus, so removed merge tag. Thatcher131 04:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sicilian octave


text:
Patna division

Patna Division is one of the nine administrative units of Bihar, a state in the east of India. Patna is the headquarters of the division. Established in 1829, it is one of the oldest divisions of the state.

History of administrative districts in Patna Division
Patna Division was established in 1829 along with Saran division (with districts of Saran, Champaran, Tirhut, and Shahabad) and Bhagalpur division (with Monghyr (now Munger), Purnea and Maldah districts) of Bihar, as 11th division in Bengal Presidency of British India. On March 1, 1834, the 10th division (or Saran) was abolished and merged into 11th (Patna) and 12th (Monghyr) divisions. Then Patna Division comprised the districts of Patna, Bihar, Saran, and Shahabad.

title: Patna division


text:
Talk:Tambo River (Peru)

Untitled
Length of the Amazon River

With the help of satellite photography it should be possible to survey the length of the Amazon River anew after the source of Río Apurímac at Nevado Mismi has been confirmed as the river's true origin (instead of Río Marañón which had been believed to be the Amazon's source until the 1970s).

Using Google Earth, I have attempted to measure Río Tambo (as part of the Amazon headwaters) from the confluence of Río Ene and Río Perené to the confluence with Río Urubamba where it forms Río Ucuyáli in 25 km segments, and will do so with the other Amazon headwaters from Nevado Mismi to its mouth in the Atlantic Ocean.

I measured each 25 km segment in partial segments of 40 m (Google Earth elevation: 7,292 ft), and have specifications of latitude and longitude for each 25 km-stopover noted down below.

I ask all the Wikipedians to check the different segments and note down below where their length differs from my measurements. When you write down differing length, you might note them down this way: "Segment 75-100" (= Distance from Point 75 to 100)

 * Point 000 - 11°09'55.60" S 74°14'07.65" W
 * Point 025 - 11°11'38.45" S 74°04'01.63" W
 * Point 050 - 11°12'57.63" S 73°54'18.65" W
 * Point 075 - 11°17'36.99" S 73°43'33.63" W
 * Point 100 - 11°08'22.16" S 73°43'38.17" W
 * Point 125 - 10°57'14.47" S 73°45'34.21" W
 * Point 150 - 10°46'03.26" S 73°45'08.19" W
 * Point 158,5 - 10°41'56.61" S 73°45'21.93"

Meister 14:52, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:40, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Rio Apurímac.png

title: Talk:Tambo River (Peru)


text:
Ned Lyons

Edward Lyons was a New York City gangster in the 19th century. Born in Ireland July 15, 1839, he immigrated to America as a child and settled in Lowell, Massachusetts. A burglar and bank robber, he learned his criminal trade in New York City. He was sentenced to Sing Sing Prison, from which he escaped in 1872 with his wife, Sophie Lyons. After serving multiple prison terms he became a notorious hustler and conman.

Ned learned to understand how people think and react, and although impaired by extreme near-sightedness, he was capable of quickly identifying liars, earning himself a high powered position among the gangs of New York. Physically, he had a strikingly large head.

title: Ned Lyons


text:
Saran division

Saran division is an administrative geographical unit of Bihar state of India. Chhapra is the administrative headquarters of the division. Currently (2005), the division consists of Saran district, also called Chhapra District, Siwan district, Gopalganj district.

Hathwa Raj was a zamindari in the Saran Division of Bihar belonging to Bhumihars which encompassed 1,365 villages, was inhabited by more than 391,000 people, and produced an annual rental of almost a million rupees.

title: Saran division


text:
Alessandro Martini

Alessandro Martini (16 May 1812 – 14 March 1905) was an Italian businessman, founder of one of the most important vermouth companies in the world, Martini & Rossi, which produces the Martini vermouth.

In 1830 he purchased a small wine company situated very close to Turin. In 1847 several Italian businessmen started producing wine, spirits and vermouth for the Distilleria Nazionale di Spirito di Vino of Turin. Thanks to the Risorgimento, the economic prospects were bright and the organization soon began to turn a profit. A few years later, Alessandro Martini joined the small team, becoming the director in 1863 along with Luigi Rossi (who was the inventor of a vermouth) and Teofilo Sola. During this early period the Distilleria Nazionale di Spirito di Vino kept on growing and several subsidiaries were created in Genoa, Cagliari and Narbonne thanks to the protection of the King of Piedmont.

In 1863, which can be considered one of the most important dates in the company's history (so much so that it is still written on the bottle), Martini, Sola and Rossi changed the name of the company to "Martini, Sola & Cia". They started exporting the bottles of vermouth around the world. New York City was given its first crates in 1867. At the same time the firm was awarded a good many prizes, which are still proudly recorded on the bottles: Dublin (1865), Paris (1867 and 1878), Vienna (1873) and Philadelphia (1876). Just thirty years after its creation, Martini was drunk in the United States, Brazil, Argentina, Greece, Portugal, Belgium, Egypt and other countries.

In 1879 Sola died, and his sons sold all their shares in the company. The firm consequently decided to change its name to Martini & Rossi, the name seen today on the bottles sold in the United States. Between 1870 and 1880 the company diversified and the two directors launched Vino Canelli Spumante (now known as Asti Martini). One of their successes was to build upon the traditions of the late 19th-century European courts' fondness for vermouth. In 1868 the company was authorized by King Victor Emmanuel II of Savoy to put the symbols of the royal family on their packaging. King Louis of Portugal (1872), the Queen of Austria, Christina (also regent of Spain) (1897) and the British Parliament did the same. The symbols of Melbourne, Anvers and Mendoza quickly followed; their marks are still seen on the packaging to this day.

When Alessandro Martini died in 1905, the three sons of Luigi Rossi inherited the company. They had already launched Martini Extra Dry (1900) and Martini Bianco before his death, and had created subsidiaries around the world. In 1922 the company officially became known as Martini, except in the United States where they were compelled to keep Martini & Rossi because Martini was already an American cocktail.

title: Alessandro Martini


text: File:Front Of Notre Dame.JPG

title: File:Front Of Notre Dame.JPG


text:
Component-based software engineering

Component-based software engineering (CBSE), also called component-based development (CBD), is a style of software engineering that aims to construct a software system from components that are loosely-coupled and reusable. This emphasizes the separation of concerns among components.

To find the right level of component granularity, software architects have to continuously iterate their component designs with developers. Architects need to take into account user requirements, responsibilities and architectural characteristics.

Considerations

For large-scale systems developed by large teams, a disciplined culture and process is required to achieve the benefits of CBSE. Third-party components are often utilized in large systems.

The system can be designed visually with the Unified Modeling Language (UML). Each component is shown as a rectangle, and an interface is shown as a lollipop to indicate a provided interface and as a socket to indicate consumption of an interface.

Component-based usability testing is for components that interact with the end user.

title: Component-based software engineering


text:
Louis Rudolph, Duke of Brunswick

Louis Rudolph (Ludwig Rudolf; 22 July 1671 – 1 March 1735), a member of the House of Welf, was Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg and ruling Prince of Wolfenbüttel from 1731 until his death. Since 1707, he ruled as an immediate Prince of Blankenburg.

Louis Rudolph was the maternal grandfather of Empress Maria Theresa, Emperor Peter II of Russia and Charles I, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel.

Life
Louis Rudolph was the youngest son of Duke Anthony Ulrich of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel and his consort Princess Elisabeth Juliane of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Norburg, daughter of Duke Frederick of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Norburg. He became a major general in the service of the Habsburg emperor Leopold I in 1690 and was promptly captured in the Battle of Fleurus by the forces of King Louis XIV of France. After being released the same year, his father gave him the Brunswick County of Blankenburg as a present, with the consent of his eldest son Augustus William, insofar violating the primogeniture principle laid down by the late Duke Henry V.

When in 1707 Prince Anthony Ulrich managed to betroth Louis Rudolph's daughter Elisabeth Christine to the Habsburg archduke Charles VI, his elder brother Emperor Joseph I raised the County of Blankenburg to an immediate principality. Louis Rudolph's status as an Imperial prince (Reichsfürst), however, was limited as his vote in the Imperial Diet was not hereditary and depending on the Welf Electorate of Brunswick-Lüneburg (Calenberg line).

On the death of brother Augustus William in 1731, Louis Rudolph also inherited Wolfenbüttel, thus ruling both principalities in personal union. He relocated his residence to Wolfenbüttel, the capital of the inherited bigger principality. In the few years of his rule, Louis Rudolph managed to restore the finances, after Augustus William had almost ruined the state.

Louis Rudolph died without male issue in 1735. He was succeeded by his first cousin, Duke Ferdinand Albert II, who had married Louis Rudolph's youngest daughter, Antoinette Amalie.

Family
Louis Rudolph married Christine Louise, daughter of Albert Ernest I, Prince of Öttingen-Öttingen, at Aurich in 1690. They had four daughters, but only three reached adulthood:

 * Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (1691–1750), married Archduke Charles VI of Austria, crowned Holy Roman Empress in 1711, mother of Empress Maria Theresa.
 * Charlotte Auguste (1692–1692)
 * Charlotte Christine of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (1694–1715), married Tsarevich Alexei Petrovich of Russia, son and heir of Peter the Great and was mother to Emperor Peter II of Russia.
 * Antoinette Amalie of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (14 April 1696 – 6 March 1762), married Duke Ferdinand Albert II of Brunswick-Lüneburg who succeeded her father in 1735.

Many members of modern and contemporary European royalty are descendants of Louis Rudolph. In particular, with the exception of Albert II, Prince of Monaco, Louis Rudolph is an ancestor of all current sovereigns of hereditary European monarchies.

title: Louis Rudolph, Duke of Brunswick


text:
File:Sacre Coeur 2.JPG

Summary
Sacre Coeur. Picture taken by me, July 2004.

title: File:Sacre Coeur 2.JPG


text:
Talk:Phoenix RoadRunners

Combine articles?
The Phoenix Roadrunners was a WHL and WHA team, from 1967-1977, and it won 2 WHL championships. This article is missing at least 10 years of Phoenix Roadrunners history.

Maybe this article should be combined with the Phoenix Roadrunners (WHA) article. Neither of them is very large and it would help with ambiguity. Disambiguation to this particular version of the team seems wrong. Cernansky (talk) 22:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Phoenix RoadRunners


text:
Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Detroit Focus Quarterly

Deletion of Detroit Focus Quarterly (DFQ)

Hi Katefan0;

I've moved for work, and I was unable to explain the importance of DFQ to the artistic community of Southwestern Michigan. DFQ is a part of an organization that periodically hosts region-wide photographic exhibitions at numerous locations, at least 100 venues in the year 2000. The handbook published by Detroit Focus, for finding all of these venues is now a collectible, and the contents a rosetta stone for unlocking photography in southwestern Michigan. I am concerned that we have lost valuable cultural references with this deletion.

Sincerely,

William Juntunen Royal Oak, Michigan

Writing to Each Wikipedia in turn
Dear Isotope23

I'll be happy to share with you the bold accomplishments of this organization, which is still active. The organization hosted a major exhibition, region-wide, which I write about below.

Do you every hang in Royal Oak? I do most of my Wikipedia work in Sweetwaters on Main Street, using the free wi-fi.

........

I've moved for work, and I was unable to explain the importance of DFQ to the artistic community of Southwestern Michigan. DFQ is a part of an organization that periodically hosts region-wide photographic exhibitions at numerous locations, at least 100 venues in the year 2000. The handbook published by Detroit Focus, for finding all of these venues is now a collectible, and the contents a rosetta stone for unlocking photography in southwestern Michigan. I am concerned that we have lost valuable cultural references with this deletion.

Sincerely,

William Juntunen Royal Oak, Michigan

Reply to Katefan0
Thank you Katefan0 for you kind and swift reply. I appreciate your volunteering to handle administrative duties on Wikipedia, and I will return to your talk page to mark it with four tildes.

It is my understanding that Wikipedia is not a democracy, and deletion isn't always carried out on basis of vote counting. In certain cases, the merits of one argument can win over multiple votes, or at least stay a deletion for additional discussion. And if the author of an article is a Wikipedian in good faith, as I feel I am, it is perhaps unsound to delete his article without providing notice to that author in good faith. Perhaps deletion without representation is tantamount to taxation without representation?

It is easy to continue to document how Detroit Focus Quarterly is a reference periodical for any art critic interested in coming to terms with the Cass Cooridor Art Movement. I believe that its collection by libraries of art history sufficiently warrants its inclusion in Wikipedia. After all, Wikipedia is attempting to benchmark other scholarly sources, such as Encarta. I expect that Detroit Focus Quarterly will be easily found in OCLC.

Online Computer Library Center, Inc. www.oclc.org/

Sincerely

Will Juntunen Wmjuntunen 15:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Request for Undeletion: Detroit Focus Quarterly is collected in Research Libraries
Dear Katefan0:

Thank you for the generosity of your replies. Wikipedia is constantly fine-tuning itself. A deletion notice, as a separate feature from the watch-list, might strike one of the Wikipedia commitees as a robust addition. Wikipedia is a gentleperson's pursuit, and direct email notification is jolly good sport. And surely, the deletion of DFQ strikes me as not entirely cricket.

The technology to email a notification is clearly easy to implement. As an analogy, if I am to be called into court, I can be called into court with a posting to a public newspaper. That's like a watchlist. However, the court is extra fair by sending a court officer to serve a subpoena at my door, into my hand. That's like an alert email. And even though I can't afford time to check Wikipedia, I always check my email.

Wikipedia allows stubs in artistic categories; this deleted article had a short history of DFQ as well as a link to the newest incarnation of DFQ, the Detroit Focus website. That's a pretty good stub. More, DFQ is listed in library collections, and thus it was a valid stub. Wikipedia will grow stronger by benchmarking OCLC and scholary works of bibliography, at least in stubs. More, as the Wikipedians who googled DFQ and still voted for deletion might have noticed, most of the entries on Google are from artists who include DFQ on their vitas, hallmarking a critically acclaimed artistic career. Indeed, I learned of DFQ when reviewing the archives of a rather famous local artist.

Stubs are valid because that's how Wikipedia announces a valid catergory about which more information is wanted. I had emailed the current president of this organization in order to find a member willing to maintain the entry. I will document these email conversations in the talk sections in the future, so people reviewing the article can write themselves, if their wish for scholary rigour motivates.

My continued conversation on this topic has potentially great fruit. What is available to you, in terms of strengthening your career as a Wikipedian, by looking up DFQ in OCLC and then reversing your deletion decision? Or at least, placing the matter into an ombudsman or mediation process? As for the idea of my re-writing the article, I might do so, but not when incomplete scholarship has too much power. Actually, I will rewrite the article once I have a list of all the artists who have been documented by DFQ.

With the greatest respect

Wmjuntunen 16:27, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Should Deletion Process Have ONE ANGEL ADVOCATE !!!!
Fining Tuning the Judgment of a Wikipedia Administrator - My Coaching

Thank you for the direction to the town pump. Would you also direct me to the process for requesting undeletion. I believe my entry in talk is sufficient, but please guide me on this.

Again, my concern is to fine-tune Wikipedia. If Wikipedia can delete an entry upon DFQ with five votes, with very little discussion of art history, then Wikipedia is going to miss valuable content. More, can an intellectual decision be rendered without one response from the angel's side? An unanimous decision is great in a democracy, but in a deliberative process is egregious. Wikipedia is a deliberation, not a democracy. Deliberation requires a voice from all sides, and even goes to the point of finding the voice of the other side. Was there an effort to find an angel's voice for DFQ, if not mine? For example, in the sainthood process, an angel's advocate and a devil's advocate is appointed.

With deepest appreciation of your willingness to engage this discussion.

Wmjuntunen 16:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Tyngsborough, Massachusetts

Citing sources
I added some financial data today that was in the Sun and referenced the MMA website. Maybe the budget and tax data for towns should be on all of the communities in the Commonwealth? I'd gladly finish up the Lowell area at least, but I'm new to Wikipedia and am a bit unclear on citing sources (should I directly site MMA from the section, or is it best at the bottom where it is?), and of course, I'd need a proofread version of the section so I could just copy it over for each town. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CSZero (talk • contribs) 14:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

 * All the external links should be at the bottom of the page as they are now. This is a wikipedia standard.  I am pretty new too but I read the help section on posting and it gives you the basics.  Unless you are putting in a direct quote I don't think you need to cite the source.  I think you can also directly copy content from government web sites since they are public funded and the data is like public property. (There is more in the help section about this.)  Also, I think you should always hit the signiture button after a post on a talk page.  This way people know what you posted and what I posted.  I don't know if this is a standard but I have seen it done on all the other talk pages.  I think it is great that you decided to contribute to wikipedia; the more the merrier!  Thanks for updating the Tyngsborough page.
 * --David Marcucci 14:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Bridge
Someone who knows what's going on should provide an update on the bridge situation. As of April 2006, the old bridge is closed, and a new bridge of much plainer design is open right next to it. A clerk in a store told me the old bridge is being repaired; I couldn't find any good accounts with Google, and I'm not sure if the new bridge is temporary, or if there will be two bridges right next to each other when the work is done. GMcGath 11:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure anything is official yet. Supposedly, the temporary bridge is just ... temporary, but they've already been talking about keeping it as a pedestrian bridge, which might very well mean they'll keep both in the end for cars.  There's supposed to be a completely new bridge eventually at the foot of Westford Rd, but that's a few years off.  Either way, we're going to get a major redesign of the intersection on the east bank.
 * Hopefully they don't keep the temporary bridge, because it really ruins the view of the original bridge, especially with the supports in the river.
 * CSZero 13:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * They were not planning to and did not keep the temporary bridge. They had spoken about keeping the second bridge as a pedestrian option for a bit, but there was a need for the temporary bridge in another town on the same river (Merrimack). They renovated the original bridge (new paint and repaved/reinforced the road). All looks beautiful now! HannahGillis (talk) 01:18, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Gateway to the White Mountains?
I don't think so. The White Mountains are in central NH, at least 70 miles north of Tyngsboro. --Schzmo 20:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I live in Nashua, and the only place I've heard that claim for Tyngsboro was in this article. Probably every place from Boston to Franconia makes the claim to some extent. Deleting it was the right move. GMcGath 20:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Due to Tyngsboro's history as a vacation destination (before the automobile), it might not be that crazy of a claim - from the town's point of view. However, as you said, many towns probably claim this, and Google confirms that.  I vote to put that sentence back, with an addition of "the town claims..." I removed the "Gateway to New Hampshire" line, since it doesn't seem like a town in a state like Massachusetts could be considered a 'gateway' to a much smaller state like New Hampshire.  Besides, Nashua's nickname of 'Gate City' is well established.  While we're at it, the claim that Tyngsboro is 30 minutes from Boston is absolutely crazy.  It's a good 40 miles, so even in the event of no traffic, that's going pretty fast...  CSZero 13:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Mapquest, which is usually optimistic, says 36.83 miles and 45 minutes. GMcGath 14:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I put in a newly worded group of sentences about both. I changed the time claim to a distance claim.  Tyngsboro is the first town in Massachusetts the Merrimack enters, so a traveller from Boston would quite conceivably have to pass through Tyngsboro as the last town in Massachusetts on a trip to the Mountains. CSZero 15:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Not exactly. After Tyngsboro, the Merrimack curves and runs parallel to the MA-NH state line. If one took I-93 out of Boston, you could claim that Methuen (through which the Merrimack also runs) was the gateway to the White Mountains. And it's the same distance/time to the White Mountains as Tyngsboro. --Schzmo 18:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Agreed it's the same distance and time, but Tyngsboro is the most upriver town in the state. I have a feeling (not the most encyclopedic thing to base writing on), that the Gateway term predates the interstate system. US 3 follows the Merrimack from Lowell to the White Mountains (after leaving Boston), which itself *probably* follows an old rail line through the river valley.  I've tried Googling around for more information, but am having little luck. CSZero 11:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

New Stats
Seems there are all new stats from the department of revenue: http://www.mass.gov/Ador/docs/dls/mdmstuf/aag/aag301.doc I don't have time to update the page now but I wanted to note this in case someone gets to it before me. --David Marcucci 21:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Theatre?
Didn't want to be a jerk and just revert it, but in my opinion, this new section on Theater is a violation of WP:UNDUE and needs to be pared down. CSZero (talk) 18:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Any notable residents or school Alumni we could add?
I'm not aware of any myself, but if anyone else knows, please add them. The snare (talk) 08:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Evolution from vacation community to bedroom community / development during 20th Century?
I thought it might be a good idea to elaborate on Tyngsborough's former status as a vacation community with a significant seasonal population. The following is what I believe to be correct, but I know of no sources with which to verify it's accuracy. The concentration of lakes in Tyngsborough as well as it's relative close proximity to Boston made the community an attractive vacation destination or place to keep a summer home for people living in and closer to Boston. This was the case prior to the completion of the interstate highway system during the mid 20th Century, after which time the drive from Greater Boston to the larger lakes in New Hampshire and Maine became more manageable, increasing their viability as vacation destinations and causing Tyngsborough to fall out of favor with vacationers and second-home buyers. However, the highways made commuting from Merrimack Valley communities like Tyngsborough to Boston more practical, and Tyngsborough became attractive to more people as a place to live year round. Population growth and development followed, causing the town to become the suburban bedroom community and commuter town that it is today. Many of the old cottages still exist; however, most have been extensively modified and expanded to serve as year-round homes.

This is the extent of my knowledge on the subject and I admit it is purely anecdotal and observational. I am not very clear on the timeline or any of the details. I don't know when the town was at its peak as a vacation destination and exactly when it went into decline or what other attractions or diversions there were for vacationers. For example, I have heard people speak of an amusement park and large hotel that were located on the East side of town. Also, many of the communities in the Merrimack Valley that have ponds and lakes were once vacation or weekend destinations to a certain extent, but was Tyngsborough's past identity even more tied to tourism, and if so, why?

As for the town's development, I am under the impression that the town developed slower than some of its neighboring communities. My father use to drive a delivery truck in town during the early 1980s, and he remembers the town still being relatively rural with unpaved roads in some areas. Is this accurate or fair to say? Qwerty01879 (talk) 04:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

 * I remember unpaved roads in Tyngsboro into the 1990s. When I moved there in the 1980s, the town's population was something like 2,500.  It's up to 11,000 now.  Tyngsboro was a summer home to actress Nance O'Neil.  The trolley lines from Lowell and Nashua ran through town as well, and I'd guess that Lakeview Ave, which was built as a trolley road (there used to be a dance hall and amusement park in Mascuppic, but on the Dracut side), were popular destinations as well.  I have a book on the town - I'll see if I can find a time to add some of it later.  CSZero (talk) 03:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Intro
Could we add a bit more to the introductory paragraph? Seems a little sparse and we might want to list "Tyngsboro" as the primary spelling as it has become the most common use of the word, then maybe follow with "Tyngsborough" in parenthesis as this becoming the slightly outdated way to spell it.

HannahGillis (talk) 01:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

History
It was _settled_ in 987 BCE as part of the Dunstable Township? Which township didn't exist until 1656 and hundreds of years before colonization? We seem to be missing some bridging information here. Also, known after incorporation for its ferries which traveled the Nile River in Africa? That's a long commute as a ferryman. Guillaime (talk) 02:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 * looks likes some vandals got to the page, I've gone ahead and cleaned it back up. W 42  17:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tyngsborough, Massachusetts


text:
Tirhut division

Tirhut Division or Tirhut Commissionary  is an administrative-geographical unit of Bihar in India. Muzaffarpur is the headquarters of the Division. The Division comprises six districts -- Muzaffarpur, West Champaran (headquartered at Bettiah), East Champaran (headquartered at Motihari), Vaishali (headquartered at Hajipur), Sitamarhi and Sheohar.

The administrative head of Tirhut Division is a Commissioner, a senior officer of the Indian Administrative Service (IAS). Tirhut's present Divisional Commissioner is Shri Pankaj Kumar, an IAS officer of the Bihar cadre.

Khudi Ram Bose, Maghfoor Ahmad Ajazi, Manzoor Ahsan Ajazi, Bhagwan Das, Juba Sahni, Raj Kumar Shukla, Ramdayalu Singh, Mathura Singh, Binda Babu and Mahesh Babu were some of the freedom fighters of Tirhut.

Mahatma Gandhi launched his struggle for independence from the East Champaran or Motihari district of this Division in 1916. It was the Karma Bhoomi of Dr. Rajendra Prasad, Acharya J.B. Kripalani and Jayprakash Narayan. Motihari is the birthplace of famous writer George Orwell.

title: Tirhut division


text:
Uceta Yard

Uceta Yard is a rail yard in a non-residential section within the city limits of Tampa. The ZIP Code serving the community is 33619.

History
Uceta Yard was the primary classification yard for the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad (ACL) in central Florida. Located in Tampa, adjacent to the former Seaboard Air Line Railroad (SAL) Yeoman Yard, it was also the site of a large car and locomotive repair facility.

After the 1967 SCL merger, the yard was gradually downgraded to being a storage yard and intermodal facility for the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad, later to become CSX Transportation in the early 1980s.

Geography
Uceta Yard is located nearly halfway between Downtown Tampa and suburban Brandon, on the city's easternmost edge. Its borders include Tampa city limits to the north, Tampa Bypass Canal to the east, Palm River-Clair Mel to the South and East Ybor to the west.

title: Uceta Yard


text:
Agathon (son of Philotas)

Agathon (in Greek Aγαθων; lived 4th century BC) was the son of the Macedonian Philotas and the brother of Parmenion and Asander. He was given as a hostage to Antigonus in 313 BC, by his brother Asander, who was satrap of Caria, but was taken back again by Asander in a few days. Agathon had a son, named Asander, who is mentioned in a Greek inscription.

title: Agathon (son of Philotas)