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Pom Prap Sattru Phai district

Pom Prap Sattru Phai (ป้อมปราบศัตรูพ่าย,, or popularly just called Pom Prap, ) is one of the 50 districts (khet) of Bangkok, Thailand. Neighbouring districts are (from north clockwise) Dusit, Pathum Wan, Bang Rak, Samphanthawong, and Phra Nakhon. With more than 24,000 inhabitants per square kilometre (more than 62,000 per square mile) it is the district with the highest population density in Thailand.

History
Pom Prap Sattru Phai was established in 1915 when the districts of Bangkok were overhauled and replaced by 25 amphoes (districts). Later, two of the original 25, Sam Yot and Nang Loeng, were merged into Pom Prap Sattru Phai.

The district was named after a fort (pom in Thai) south of present Nang Loeng Market. The fort was one of the eight new forts built along Khlong Phadung Krung Kasem during King Rama IV's reign. Its name literally means 'suppression of enemy fort'.

Administration

The district is divided into five sub-districts (khwaeng).

Places
The Golden Mount (ภูเขาทอง or พระบรมบรรพต) inside Wat Saket (วัดสระเกศ) is probably the best known place in Pom Prap Sattru Phai. Its height is 63.6 m, making it easily seen from surrounding area. The chedi on the top is accessible via stairs circling up around the mount. The construction of Golden Mount began during King Rama III's reign but suffered from foundation stability problem. It was finished during the reign of King Rama V.

Wat Mangkon Kamalawat (วัดมังกรกมลาวาส) or Wat Leng Noei Yi (วัดเล่งเน่ยยี่) is the most famous Mahayana temple in Bangkok's Chinatown. It is crowded on special days such as Chinese New Year and Chinese Vegetarian Food Festival (in the 9th lunar month). The temple holds an annual The Krajat (เทกระจาด) to donate food and consumer goods to the poor in the 7th lunar month (a part of Ghost Festival).

Tai Hong Kong Shrine (ศาลเจ้าไต้ฮงกง) is a Chinese shrine built to honor Tai Hong (1582-1670). Living in Guangdong, he helped people by giving food to the poor, treatment to the ill, and funerals for the dead who had no family. A group of merchants emigrated to Bangkok from China following the same path. With a donation from King Rama VI, the shrine was established. In 1937 the Poh Teck Tung Foundation was formed for rescue and charity work. It is opposite the shrine on Phlapphla Chai Road.

Other prominent temples in the district include Wat Thepsirin (also written Wat Depsirin) and Wat Phlapphla Chai with Wat Sommanat Wihan as well as Wat Khanikaphon.

Ratchadamnoen Boxing Stadium (also spelled "Rajadamnern") holds traditional Muay Thai (Thai boxing) matches and is an alternative leading boxing arena to Lumpinee Boxing Stadium.

Varadis Palace is the former residence of Prince Damrong Rajanubhab. Built in 1911 by the German architect Karl Dohring, it is in a large garden. After restoration in 1996, it houses the Prince Damrong Rachanupab Museum and Library.

King Prajadhipok Museum is the museum exhibitions relating to royal life of King Prajadhipok (Rama VII), located near Phan Fa Lilat Bridge. Its building used to be a Department of Public Works first.

Mahat Thai Uthit Bridge (สะพานมหาดไทยอุทิศ) is the historic bridge over Khlong Maha Nak (คลองมหานาค) near Phan Fa Lilat Bridge and Mahakan Fort with Wat Saket, it was built as a memorial to the demise of King Rama V. The figures of the outstanding people weeping was adorned on the both sides. Hence the name Saphan Rong Hai (สะพานร้องไห้, lit. lamenting bridge) informally. It also the beginning of Paribatra, a road in form of soi (alley) that cuts through the west of the district and connecting Ratchadamnoen Avenue with Yaowarat Road in Bangkok's Chinatown area.

Metropolitan Waterworks Authority Office, also known as Waterworks Authority Maen Si is the first head office of Metropolitan Waterworks Authority in Thailand built since the reign of King Rama VI. To date it is a remarkable historic building located on the corner of Maen Si Intersection near Wat Saket.

22 July Circle is the traffic circle where Maitri Chit intersects Santiphap and Mittraphan Roads. It was built to commemorate the time that Siam (now Thailand) announced its participation in the First World War according to the royal intention of King Rama VI. Nowadays, it is known as a centre for billboard and tires shops, include an area of Bangkok's sex industry too.

S.A.B. Intersection is four-way intersection of Charoen Krung and Worachak with Chakkrawat Roads overlaps Samphanthawong District, regarded as the first junction of Charoen Krung Road, counted from the Damrong Sathit Bridge, or familiarly known as Saphan Lek. On the corner of the intersection is the location of two striking historic Sino-Portuguese buildings, S.A.B. Building is now a head office of Sing Sian Yer Pao, Thailand's best selling Chinese newspaper and Siam Commercial Bank, Chaloem Nakhon Branch, one of three oldest and most beautiful branches of Siam Commercial Bank apart from Siam Commercial Bank, Talat Noi Branch in Samphanthawong District and Siam Commercial Bank, Phetchaburi Branch in Ratchathewi district.

Berlin Pharmaceutical Museum is an outstanding Colonial building and former office of Dr. Chai Chainuvati, a physician who was an owner, located on the corner of Suea Pa Intersection. In 1932, he opened a clinic and dispensary here to treat general poor patients in Charoen Krung and Yaowarat neighbourhoods. Currently, it has become a three-story medicine museum and neat café run by his heir.

Soi Nana, a small alley near 22 July Circle, it has been renovated from old-fashioned shophouses to chic cafés to appeal to young people and hipsters.

Markets
Bobae Market (ตลาดโบ๊เบ๊) is a major low-cost fabric mart. It is on a section of Krung Kasem Road between Lan Luang Road and Bamrung Mueang Road on the northeast border of the district. The area is currently under renovation by Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) and the market is closed.

Khlong Thom (คลองถม) is an electrical and electronics marketplace. It was once a famous night market where vendor stalls extended onto pavements and alleys. Goods, including second hand, or sometimes stolen, were available from Saturday night to Sunday morning. The night market has now been closed as part of pavement cleanup campaign since March 2015.

Nang Loeng (นางเลิ้ง) is a Thailand's oldest land market and historic neighbourhood.

Suea Pa (เสือป่า) is a centre of wholesale and retail for mobile phone accessories, IT and electric equipments.

Festivals
Although traditional Thai temple fairs (งานวัด) are not commonly seen nowadays, one is held every year at the Golden Mount about the time of Loy Krathong. Ferris wheels, shooting galleries, Sao Noi Tok Nam (สาวน้อยตกน้ำ, literally little lady falling into water) are popular activities. There are also freak shows such as Mia Ngu (เมียงู, lit. snake's wife) with a woman living with a python.

Transportation
Besides the usual road transportation, a boat service runs along Khlong Maha Nak and Khlong Saen Saep. The route begins at the stop near the Golden Mount and ends at Pratu Nam in Pathum Wan/Ratchathewi, there passengers can change boat to further destinations.

The district is currently served by one subway line, and will be by a second in the future. The MRT Blue Line has a station in Wat Mangkon which is in Samphanthawong district directly across the Charoen Krung Road from Pom Prap Sattru Phai. MRT Orange Line will also have station Lan Luang here.

Government and infrastructure
Three Thai government ministries, The Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Social Development and Human Security, and the Ministry of Tourism and Sports have head offices in the district.

Economy
Thai Airways International operates the Larn Luang Office in Pom Prap Sattru Phai. The office used to be the head office of Thai Airways Company.

Education

 * Debsirin School
 * Saipanya School Under the Royal Patronage of her Majesty the Queen School

Notable people

 * Kanok Ratwongsakul – journalist
 * Jermmas Chuenglertsiri – politician

title: Pom Prap Sattru Phai district


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Talk:Grand Island Township, Michigan

Mainland segment
There is a portion of the township on the mainland. See http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/prfinder/ and zoom in on Alger County near Munising. Using the Identify tool's "Area" mode and click in the area immediately south of Grand Island on the mainland that's separate from Au Train Township to its west and the City of Munising to its south. Among all of the information that will appear, it says "Place: Grand Island". (MDOT drops "Township" from place names.)  Imzadi 1979  →   08:01, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified one external link on Grand Island Township, Michigan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130911234518/http://factfinder2.census.gov/ to http://factfinder2.census.gov/

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Grand Island Township, Michigan


text:
User:Levarro

I am a native of Argentina and now a United States citizen.

title: User:Levarro


text:
Bramley railway station (West Yorkshire)

Bramley railway station serves the suburb of Bramley, Leeds, England. It lies on the Calder Valley line 4 mi west from Leeds.

History
The original station was opened by the Leeds, Bradford and Halifax Junction Railway on 1 August 1854. This was closed by British Railways on 4 July 1966, the last trains having called on 2 July. The station had platforms opposite each other and were connected by a footbridge.

The present station off Stanningley Road opened on 12 September 1983 by Metro (West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive) and British Rail. The station's two wooden platforms are staggered, and cost £125,000.

Facilities
The station is not staffed and has a ticket machine on platform 2 as of spring 2019. There are shelters and passenger information screens on each platform, along with a system to provide train running information. Though there are ramps to each platform, disabled access to platform 2 is restricted by the path being narrow and opening out onto a busy main road.

Services
Monday to Saturday daytimes, three trains per hour head eastbound towards Leeds, with one continuing to Selby and Hull. Westbound the frequency is similar, with trains heading to Bradford Interchange and Halifax. Two of three go beyond Halifax to Manchester Victoria, whilst the third terminates there (passengers for Brighouse and Huddersfield now need to change trains at Bradford Interchange on weekdays). One Manchester service now runs through to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay since the May 2019 timetable update.

There is an additional 4th [train per hour] that runs Mon-Fri eastbound, just before 8am, which is operated by Grand Central on behalf of Northern - as such, tickets cannot be purchased on this service.

On Sundays there are two trains per hour towards Leeds and to Bradford Interchange. One westbound service runs through to Manchester and the other runs to Huddersfield.

The Northern service to Preston passes through Bramley but does not stop there.


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Talk:Grosse Ile Township, Michigan

Untitled

 * What does this mean: "In 2001, Grosse Ile was ranked the highest out of 88 school districts in Michigan by the Detroit News. [1]"  Highest in what? Thats a very vauge statement that doesn't make sense.

 * According to Detroit News analysis, the Grosse Ile School District ranked the best overall among school districts in Metro Detroit during 2001. The Detroit News published an article on March 4, 2001 that stated the following: "Grosse Ile moved to the head of the class among Metro Detroit school districts in the 2001 Detroit News School Report card. The island school district in southern Wayne County topped 87 other districts in Wayne, Oakland, Macomb and Livingston counties. The News, which published its first school report card in the 1999-2000 school year, grades districts on 12 key education factors, including test scores, teacher experience, class size, accreditation and drop-out rate. It is the most comprehensive analyses of area school districts."  Source:  http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2001/reportcard/index.htm.Mhistory 23 June 2006.

 * I grew up in Grosse Ile and visit there frequently, and the "toll bridge" is white, not yellow. I'm going to change this.

 * I have lived on Grosse Ile my entire life and have always thought of the bridge as yellow. This isn't worth starting an edit war, but I'm going to take a nice good close look at it when I go home for spring break. Isopropyl 05:34, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

 * In the History Section of this entry, there was a claim that a tunnel under the Livingstone Channel existed to assist bootlegging during the Prohibition. This is not correct as there was never a tunnel under the Livingstone Channel.  This error has been changed.

recent changes
The recent changes to this article included blocks of text copied right from the copyrighted histories on the township website. Other material was reworked sufficiently to aviod copyright issues. I do not have time this week to sort through this; however, I believe that much of the material and be recovered and easily rewritten. [User:rmhermen] 20:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Comments about recent changes
None of the text from the articles (http://www.grosseile.com/community/history/index.html) that members of the Grosse Ile Historical Society provided to the Grosse Ile Township Web site is copyrighted. The township's Web site administrator placed a copyright claim at the bottom of every page on the township's Web site; however, this claim for the Web site does not apply to information that members of the Society have provided (nor does it apply to a lot of other information on the site).

Specifically, the "Quick History of Grosse Ile" is not a copyrighted document. The Society provides this document, written by a long-time member of the Society, to the public at no cost.

Moreover, the author of the "Quick History of Grosse Ile" document has no objection to use of sentences or paragraphs of information from this document without attribution (attribution would only be requested for using the entire text without changes).

All the basic facts (names, dates, places, actions, etc...) in this document were obtained from multiple sources and the author makes no claim to proprietary knowledge. These facts are well-known to people who care about providing the public with a factually correct, and relevant, history of Grosse Ile (unlike the person who posted the claims that there was a tunnel under the Livingstone Channel and some obscure rock band may have once played on the island). If it would be helpful, the author is willing to discuss this matter by e-mail. [User:Mihistory1] 4 January 2006
 * Under U.S. and international law, every text is automatically copyrighted by the simple act of publishing it. That includes publishing it on the web, the important detail is the creative act of arranging the words and releasing them to the public. We cannot use copyrighted material without a release into the public domain or under the GFDL by the author/owners that is mailed to Wikipedia or through independantly verified emails.

But there is no reason to use anyone's copyrighted material to convey these facts. Just rewrite it yourself! Rmhermen 00:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

More comments about recent changes
The history of Grosse Ile article edited by Mihistory1 will be revised and re-submitted to avoid any perceived theoretical copyright infringement with a previously published document. It is commendable that Wikipedia's editors are diligent in the protection of copyrighted materials.

The main point of the previous "Comments about recent changes" is that the Grosse Ile Township's decision to assert copyright protection (i.e., copyright registration) for it's Web site does not apply to the articles posted on it by members of the Grosse Ile Historical Society. The authors of these articles have not sought copyright protection and the historical facts in these articles have been in the public domain for a long time.

U.S. copyright law normally does not protect basic descriptions of historical facts -- dates of events, names and titles of public figures, geographic locations and descriptions of structures observed from public roads or property, etc... The facts in the Grosse Ile history article submitted by Mihistory1 have been in the public domain (in a number of different sources) for many years.

The author of a "Quick History of Grosse Ile" is very willing to provide a waiver of any implicit theoretical copyright protection, but as you note, it's probably just as easy to revise a few sentences to make the new article completely "original" for use in Wikipedia. [User:Mihistory1] 14 January 2006.
 * There is no such thing as an "implicit theoretical" copyright. Under international treaty law to which the U.S. is a party, the creative content of any material is automatically copyrighted upon publication regardless of any lack of claims by the author. No one needs to seek or assert copyright, it merely exists. Facts cannot be copyrighted; however, the style of presentation of those facts can (excluding obvious, natural organizations like alphebetical ordering.) "descriptions of structures observed from public roads or property" are most certainly protected. Rmhermen 05:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, in the interest of historical accuracy, I feel it is important to relate that Heinz Prector died by suicide. Refering to his death as a 'passing' indicates a chain of events far different than what actually occured. It also fails to bring to light his depression which his wife has gone to great lengths to bring awarness of, and it would be a shame to hinder her efforts by glossing over the facts with a 'P.C.' interpretaion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 23:27, October 2, 2006 (UTC)

What to do?
I grew up on this little island, and still live there when I'm not at school, so I know a fair amount about it. I just don't really know what to put on the page. What kind of information should we use to flesh out this article? Isopropyl 05:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a list of former township supervisors would be neat to see, as well as any other notable names that called GI home other that the late Mr. Prechter.

The Revised and Extended History Article for Grosse Ile
On April 9th, the history article was completely re-written to avoid the perceived copyright conflict with the "Quick History of Grosse Ile" that was noted by the editor. The author of a "Quick History of Grosse Ile" is a long-time member of the Grosse Ile Historical Society. Although the "Quick History of Grosse Ile" author purposely did not seek copyright registration for this article in order to encourage subsequent writers to get the historical facts about the Island right, we understand the concerns of the editor and have made a diligent and lengthy effort to address them.

The author of the "Quick History of Grosse Ile" has reviewed this revised article and agrees that it contains facts that are well-known to Grosse Ile historians as well as descriptions of facts that are not unique to any single document or publication. In many instances, the facts in the revised article have been in the public domain for years. Of course, as was noted by the editor, historical facts cannot be copyrighted.

If there are any additional questions about the relationship between the revised article and the "Quick History of Grosse Ile," the authors of both articles would be pleased to send e-mails, letters, or whatever communications are appropriate to reassure the editor that there is no copyright conflict here.

Island residents are very proud and protective of Grosse Ile's rich history which is integral to the character of the community. If it is Wikipedia's desire that information on this Web site be considered a serious resource for learning about the long and significant history of Grosse Ile, it is essential that the facts are presented in a correct, complete and relevant manner. Mhistory 9 April 2006.

Westcroft Farm
Is there an authoritative source that says this is THE oldest farm in Michigan? Seems a little dubious. The farm dates from 1776. The French were here long before that, I'm sure at least some of them farmed. And the Pottawatomi engaged in cultivation as well long before the French. Now what could well be true is that it is the oldest farm still owned (or continuously owned) by the same family.

And FYI, this page from the EPA has quite a lot of good information. older ≠ wiser 01:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Westcroft Farm Was Established in 1776 and Has Been Owned and Operated Continuously by Members of the Same Family
Westcroft Farm was established by one of the founders of Grosse Ile in 1776. According to the Michigan Department of Agriculture, "There are 6,000 certified Centennial Farms in Michigan—the oldest dating back to 1776" (http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1566_1733_22582_22586-67115--,00.html).

The claim that Westcroft makes is that it is the oldest continuously operating farm owned by members of the same family. Obviously, the Native Americans, French, English and other early settlers in Michigan were engaged in farming prior to 1776, but I am not aware that any other farm owned by members of the same family in the state is claiming to be in continuous operation for more than 230 years. That said, I'm not certain that the State of Michigan has officially recognized Westcroft as the oldest farm. This can be researched for an authoritative source.

As for the 1994 version of the "Brief History of Grosse Ile" published on the U.S. EPA's Web site, a more recent version of this document was published in 1999 and can be viewed on Grosse Ile Township's Web site (http://www.grosseile.com/community/history/quick.html). As noted in earlier comments, the author of this document intentionally did not seek a copyright registration in order to encourage the correct characterization of historical facts about the island. Mhistory 10 June 2006.

WTH?
I'd like to remind you that there is another much more important Grosse Ile in the St.Lawrence river that was used as an immigrant quarantine station from 1832 to 1937. it does not have its own article, so I feel the need to create a disambiguation page for Grosse Ile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petrovic-Njegos (talk • contribs)
 * Grosse-Île, Canada's role as the major immigration processing center in that country between 1832 and 1937 is definitely historically noteworthy and certainly merits an article in Wikipedia. But, I'm not sure why it is necessary or worthwhile to compare this location in Canada to the Grosse Ile in Michigan in terms of which is more "important."  Stating that Grosse-Île, Canada is "much more important" than Grosse Ile, Michigan is a completely relative statement.  Grosse Île and the Irish Memorial National Historic Site of Canada is owned and operated by the Canadian federal government (http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/qc/grosseile/index_e.asp).  Grosse Ile, Michigan is predominantly a residential community of 11,000 people that features many significant historic sites and has been the home of numerous residents who made noteworthy achievements during its 230 year history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosse_Ile#History).  I agree that a disambiguation page may be worthwhile if readers are seeking information Grosse-Île, Canada and only finding information about Grosse Ile, Michigan; however, I don't think one can make the statement that either location is "much more important" than the other since both places played, and continue to play, very different roles in their respective nations. Mhistory 14 July 2006.
 * In any case, it's a moot point until someone writes the article for the other island. No sense in creating a disambig page if the other article doesn't exist yet. Isopropyl 05:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

There is however, an article on Simple English Wikipedia about Grosse Ile, Quebec. To say one is more important is absurd.

French meaning of Grosse Ile
I changed the translation of Grosse Ile in the into from meaning "Grand Island" to "Large Island". I believe that in French Grand and Grosse are simlar to Grand and Large in English. Similar but not the same; otherwise the name would be "Grand Ile" not "Grosse Ile". The French usage of grand is used in Grand Blanc, Michigan. —MJCdetroit 19:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Your interpretation of the French is quite wrong. 'Grosse' is French litterally translated as 'Fat'. If the island were intended to be named 'Large Island', the term used would have been 'Grande'. Any French language dictionary would indicate this, and consequently I have changed it to reflect this translation. When the island was named, it was called 'Fat' due to its wide girth and not 'Large' because of its relative size in relation to the outlying islands. To further refute any claim to the contrary, I ask the previous poster to consult any current French language text book or dictionary. The entry for 'grosse' is: fat, big. 'Large' would translate as 'Grande'. In a sense both can be contextually used to indicate relative size, as in one is 'bigger' than another, but even a review of contemporary and archaic French shows that 'Grande' litterally means 'Large' and not 'big'. The same review of the word 'Grosse' denotes a meaning of 'Fat' and not 'Large'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 23:23, October 2, 2006 (UTC)

 * No, this is an elementary mistake. Grosse can mean many things in French. In context, it can mean either fat or large. older ≠ wiser 00:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

No, this is not a mistake, it is most certainly not elementary, and I highly resent your tone. When translating the meaning of Grosse in the as to the naming of the island, it is imperative and historically accurate to do so in the context of the French spoken in the seventeeth-century. 'Grosse' meant 'fat' to Cadillac. As to using 'grosse' in strict linguistic context; it refers to girth, not size. I would recommend consulting any French/English dictionary or text book, perhaps even babblefish for a proper modern translation. If one were to refer to the relative size of one object in comparison to another then the term used would be 'grande'. Equating 'large' and 'grosse' demonstrates a faulty understanding of the French language and an inability to separate yourself from American political correctness. 'Grande' is a perfectly acceptable term to use to translate 'great', as in Le Grande Monarque Louis XIV or in making reference to one object being 'greater' than another, again in the context of relative size. However, 'grosse', to any Frenchman past or present, has and always will refer to size in terms of girth.

 * Fine, prove it with citations to reliable sources. "It" specifically being that Grosse Ile meant Fat Island in the time of Cadillac (citations that the isolated word Grosse means fat will not suffice). Despite the bluster, your argument is unconvincing. The precise connotation of a word such as Grosse is very much dependent on context. The township website's history page says "early French explorers identified the island as la grosse ile (the large island)." Same here (pdf) in a 2003 report on the township master plan. If you have verifiable evidence about the history of the island's name to the contrary, other than Original Research based on your understanding of the language, please provide them. older ≠ wiser 12:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Gros = big, huge, enormous; gras = fat; greasy, sticky

gros and gras have virtually identical connotations, each can mean 'fat'

To cite the township of Grosse Ile and its own records as source is itself unconvincing. I was born and raised on Grosse Ile, and if one thing has stuck with me throughout the years; it is that the township is far more about image and posterity than it is about historical fact. With respect to your argument citing the French identification of the island as 'la grosse ile': it proves nothing. 'Grosse' today, as it did over 200 years ago, still refers to size in regard to girth. Yes, Grosse Ile, as an island situated among its outlying brethren is larger, but had Cadillac and the French expedition intended to name it the 'large' island in relation to the others, they would have used the term 'Grande'. Contrary to your belief, language is not as fluid as you would assume. As a TRAINED HISTORIAN, I have examined your citations and, while they seemingly indicate a point contradictory to my own examination of seventeenth and eighteenth-century French, one must never forget to fully contextualize the past as those who experienced it lived it. If the French spoken by the Quebecious is any indication, the use of the term 'grosse' in strictly girth related fashion (as Quebecious is a variation of French that exists virtually as it did in the seventeenth-century after New France was cut off from the home country) is the only one which makes logical sense. To further illustrate this point, I invite you to take into consideration the honorary moniker bestowed upon Louis XIV with your own logic. The 'Sun King' was known to Frenchmen as 'La Grande Monarque' and 'Louis le Grande'. Both translated, as they would be to a seventeenth-century Frenchmen, literally mean 'The Great Monarch' and 'Louis the Great'. If one were to use your liberal interpretation of seventeenth-century French as a guide, then one could easily substitute 'La Grosse Monarque' or 'Louis le Grosse'. This is where your interpretation breaks down, as your results would be 'The FAT Monarch' and 'Louis the FAT'. As French and German are come from the same root language, divergent only upon the death of Charlemagne, the linguistic argument is only further solidified. Groß in German is catch-all term that refers to something being larger than another, or, as in the case of Friedrich der Groß, being 'great'. At this point the distinctions between eighth-century German and French manifest themselves, with the Germanic term 'dick' connotating girth, much akin to the English 'thick'. Admittedly, I am no authority on all European languages, but a cursory examination of romance and germanic languages leads me to the following results. In English (as English is a Germanic language), fat, thick etc. translate as 'dick'. In French, 'Grosse', meaning FAT, translates as 'gros'. In Spanish, fat translates as 'gordo'. In Italian, 'grasso'. Translating LARGE in each respective language, one gets 'Groß' for German, 'Grande' for French, 'Grande' for Italian and 'Grande' for Spanish. Linguistically (as French, Spanish and Italian all share an identical root), this examination of the four terms can only lead one to indicate that the proper translation for the French 'Grosse' is FAT. Translating the term 'large' along the same principles, one can, again, only come to the conclusion (unless clouded by personal bias or an odd devotion to an incorrect interpretation of the language) that the three romance languages share a common root, which is wholly akin to my interpretation of 'large' as 'grande'. If this is not proof enough, let us also consider the perspective from which Cadillac would have originally viewed the island, from the 'narrows of the river', unless again my interpretation is incorrect. From the original settlement and construction of Ft. Pontchartrain, the island would have appeared as 'fat' in the river, hence its name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs) 10:11, October 12, 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you hit the nail on the head. Are you meaning to imply fat in the sense thick/large or corpulent/obese or unnecessary excess. In Spanish you can describe a person or animal as gordo but not land or, in this case, an island. You would use the word fértil for the sense of "fat". Perhaps that was the use of "grosse" at the time. → friedfish 11:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

 * To anon IP: Your translation and interpretation amounts to original research. Provide a verifiable source. Also, please sign your posts on talk pages adding four tildes ~ older ≠ wiser 12:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

In an effort to lay the matter to rest, I consulted Dr. Thomas Vosteen, a professor of French language and literature at Eastern Michigan University. He agrees with my position in so far that 'large' as a literal translation is positively incorrect. Had that been the case, 'grande' would have been the choice. He suspects that the usage of 'la grosse ile' was probably being used in regard to the island's importance among the other outlying islands, and the reference is to it being 'bigger' than the others. In keeping with Cadillac's word choice and historical context, it seems that 'big' was most likely his intent. As to the original research, I consulted Allons'y: Le Francais Par Etapes, a biggining French language text, as well as Altavista babble fish and countless web pages brought up by a simple google search of 'fat', 'grosse', 'French language'. As to the linguistic reasoning, it comes from a familiarity with language groups/families that any European historian must be versed in due to the nature of their field. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 19:52, October 12, 2006 (UTC)

 * I can live with glossing it as "big" rather than either "large" or "fat". And please sign you posts. older ≠ wiser 20:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Living with it is not the issue, it is one of factual correctness. I browsed the 2000 Detroit Almanac, and the translation they use there is also 'Big Island'. Also, Think about Grosse Point, Michigan. The term used is identical, and when translating it makes sense to use 'Big Point' rather than 'Large' in that case. Such similar nomenclature only points to big as the correct term. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 20:51, October 13, 2006 (UTC)

 * "Big" is closer in connotation to "large" than it is to "fat". And can you please WP:SIGN your posts. older ≠ wiser 02:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If this issue is about historical accuracy and actual usage throughout recorded history on Grosse Ile as opposed to the ways that French words can theoretically be translated into English, then there is no question that the proper interpretation is "large island."

Widely recognized historical works about the island such as Isabella Swan's The Deep Roots and Nancy Karmazin's "Quick History of Grosse Ile" (http://www.grosseile.com/community/history/quick.html) state that the interpretation of the "grosse" in Grosse Ile's name means "large" -- the French name is correctly interpreted as "large island" in English. This is a fact that is widely known by residents of Grosse Ile.

For example, Isabella Swan's chronology of the island history in the Rotary phone directory, which can be found in most homes on the island, states that the interpretation is "large island." I have found no reference at the Grosse Ile Historical Society or in the local newspaper that suggests anyone has ever interpreted the meaning as "fat island."

In this regard, even if there theoretically were multiple English interpretations of the French word "grosse" in the early 18th Century, the relevant fact for the Wikipedia article is how the residents of Grosse Ile have translated the name for at least the last 100 years of recorded history (and probably much longer). Mhistory 29 October 2006.

 * actually, the question isn't particularly about what and how 'grosse' has been interpreted by islanders, although that is an important facet of the argument. Cadillac was the one who named the island, so it is important to consider his perspective and intent when providing the moniker. in keeping with this, he would have viewed the island upstream, from near present day detroit and just south. from this vantage point, the island would, and does, appear to be 'fat' in the river. after consulting with the above mentioned works, it seems that neither author gave this much consideration. in either case, i consulted a french language professor at eastern michigan university, and he said that although 'fat' is the proper translation, the connotation would lean toward 'big' rather than obese. 'large' was a mistranslation, according to him and would be explicit, as even Cadillac would have used the term 'grande' (ie: grande blanc). this discussion is somewhat moot though, as it has been 'big' for some time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 04:02, January 17, 2007 (UTC)

Elementary school rivalry
I can verify and vouch for the Park Lane vs. Meridian rivalry. I personally find it relevant to an encyclopedic entry. Ian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.213.91 (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Recently, I've added information about the Parke Lane vs. Meridian rivalry information, and it keeps getting deleted. Please stop deleting this information. As a former ParkeLamer, I remember the rivalry well, and would like you to stop deleting history. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.39.48.8 (talk • contribs).

 * I assume you're referring to edits like this? Such information is not particularly encyclopedic. At the very least, in order for it to remain in the article, you would need to provide a verifiable citation to a relilable source for that information. older ≠ wiser 17:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Aside from the references not being politically correct, they are important as they reflect a part of island culture that everyone who attended either is deeply ingrained in. I was born and raised on Grosse Ile my entire life and specifically remember going into the 6th grade with the 'Park Lamer'/Meridiot' rivalry. It not being 'encyclopedic' is a bad excuse for not including an aspect of cultural life that is integral to the education experience on the island. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 23:35, October 2, 2006 (UTC)

 * Political correctness has little bearing. Verifiability does. Provide a citation to a reputable source. older ≠ wiser 00:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

For verifiability, spend ten minutes talking to anyone who attended either elementary school in the past twenty years. I myself attended Parke Lane, and was very aware of the Meridiots I would be attending school with upon entry into the sixth grade. Two of my best friends attended Meridian, and shared the same apprehensions about going to school with 'Parke Lamers'. No 'reputable' source for such, to use the term liberally, 'elementary' coloquialisms will ever exist, except in a strictly oral context. In this instance, you are intellectually exchanging with a primary source in regard to this disputed aspect of island culture and as any trained historian understands, those are fundamentally the most important and valuable sources, even if they are only as verifiable as their word. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 11:01, October 12, 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but that is not an acceptable source. If no verifiable published source can be found to corroborate this, then it should not remain in the article. older ≠ wiser

I am not sure as to your training in historical practices and procedures, but the previous statement demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding the field. Primary sources come in many forms, and there is no axiom that dictates they be published. The recollection of someone born and raised on Grosse Ile is an acceptable source in historical methodology. No one has annointed you the 'grand puba' of this wiki but you feel, for some reason, to have placed yourself in that position. Further, you continually fall back on 'verifiable published sources', when, in reality, something such as this aspect of island culture would not appear in any text, as it is strictly oral in nature and, for all intents and purposes, restricted in relevance to students in the K-12 education system there. Its use tends to go no farther than a bunch of high schoolers sitting around discussing who was a 'Parke Lamer' and a 'Meridiot' at lunch or some social gathering. Just because it is not found in a book does not mean it does not exist. Learn to use sources provided, especially if they come from life-long islanders, as they are just as valuable as anything found in a book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 20:14, October 12, 2006 (UTC)

 * My training in historical practices is not relevant. What is relevant is what is acceptable criteria for inclusion is Wikipedia. Statements MUST be verifiable to published sources. See WP:No original research and Verifiablity. Wikipedia is NOT a primary source nor is it a place to publish primary data not available elsewhere. While personal recollection may be acceptable when processed by trained professionals and published in reputable sources with editorial controls, it is not acceptable here. You don't even have a user name. Even if you were one of the most esteemed professionals working in your field, it is irrelevant for the pruposes of a "encyclopedia that anyone can edit". Even if you put in correct details, someone else can come along with a later edit and change them. Without any source to provide reference for external verification, the information is unreliable. What is absolutely essential is verifiability. older ≠ wiser 20:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

If you are absolutely hell bent on 'verifiable' and 'published' sources, then I invite you to consult any Grosse Ile High School yearbook. I can only site the years 1997-2000 with any certainty, but the terms 'Parke Lamer' and 'Meridiot' are used in those four volumes. I don't believe I ever stated Wikipedia as being a primary source, I believe I stated that 'I' was the primary source. In either case, your self annointed editorship of this Wiki is in itself biased and opposition toward a sentence that only serves to highlight a facet of island culture, which, it seems, you are wholly unaware of. In either case, I believe to burden of proof in regard to the terms has been met, unless you wish to challenge the validity of yearbooks published by past students as a record of their educational experience on the island. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 21:01, October 13, 2006) (UTC)

 * If you are absolutely hell bent on ignoring Wikipedia policies regarding original research, then there's not much that I can say to you to convince you otherwise. I'm not a self-appointed anything. If you bothered to read and understand what Wikipedia is about, and it's most fundamental policies, then you might understand. Beyond the question of original research though, as I've pointed out from the begining, the detail is unencyclopedic. And can you please SIGN you posts? older ≠ wiser 02:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you give us an example of an appropriate source? A number of people, you could even call them a witness, verified this information. It was confirmed in many of the Official Grosse Ile High School Yearbooks. What other sources would you like us to present? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.18.249 (talk • contribs). 23:15, October 26, 2006 (UTC)

 * I've provided several links in previous comments. Please read them. And I'm repeating this request for what seems like the hundredth time, please read Sign your posts on talk pages? But beyond the issue of verifiability and citation, there is the issues of whether such elementary school trivia belongs in an article about the overall township. In an article about the schools or the school districts, possibly, but it is not a very encylopedic detail regarding the townshp. older ≠ wiser 00:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

it seems to me that you're overapplying the wikipedia rules and regulations here, and being a bit of a sore loser in many respects. if you would care to drive down to Grosse Ile and check out the yearbooks for yourself, they are there. secondly, wikipedia has substantially evolved from a purely 'encyclopedic' source. check out any number of articles, particularly ones about musicians, culture etc., and you will find plenty that is not 'encyclopedic' by your definition. i would suggest that you relinquish your self appointed 'final editorial adjudication' and let the article be what it is. at the end of the day, you are making a huge stink about a sentence, and the only reason you're making the stink about it is because you have been proven wrong again and again, and continually fall back on the shakiest of arguments and technicallities for the above mentioned editorial exclusion. if this article were to be purely 'encyclopedic' then we can strip away about 90% of it and really leave just the bare-bones census material, as most of the information that was culled from 'deep roots' is, by that standard, fluff and filler anyway. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 03:46, January 17, 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure what 'deep roots' you're referring to and don't especially care. Unsourced crapola has no place in Wikipedia, whether it get deleted now or later is just a matter of perspective. If you want a page for unsourced, unverifiable trivia, there are other venues available. older ≠ wiser 23:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

wow, either you are incredibly stubborn or incredibly stupid. the sources in question are, indeed, SOURCES and are VERIFIABLE. if it is your standard, then by all means be my guest and drive down to the island's high school, go to the library and examine one of the yearbooks for yourself. if you are not willing to make that effort, then stuff your attitude and learn to accept the fact that you, like everyone else, is not always right. also, since you obviously either can't spare the time to scroll down to the bottom of the page you have chosen as your own feifdom or just can't read, the 'deep roots' which is being referenced is the book from which most of the information on this wiki comes from. and if the inclusion of such detail is aparently no concern to you other than upholding wikipedia standards and deletion of the material in question a matter of time, then let someone else do it, since you obviously 1) cannont conceive that some "trivia", as you call it, is actually part of a culture foreign to you and 2) accept the fact that every standard of proof and verifiability the wikipedia requires has been met, making you little more than a sore loser and quite childish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.140.82 (talk • contribs). 05:52, March 1, 2007 (UTC)

 * Wow, you sure make a persuasive argument. But not really. Try learning more about Wikipedia and what it is about and what the relevant guidelines are. older ≠ wiser 12:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Lewis and Clark in Grosse Ile
I just added a passage about Lewis and Clark's exploration of Grosse Ile. Why has this been deleted? Is Wikipedia an organization that doesn't want to hear the truth? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.93.115 (talk • contribs). 03:12, January 20, 2007) (UTC)

 * I removed it because you did not provide any source to verify the information, and based on what I know of their expedition, it seemed unlikely that they stopped in Grosse Ile. If you can provide a verifiable source that indicates otherwise, that would be interesting. older ≠ wiser 13:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Location Image
What's the deal with the location image? Grosse Ile is an island, and yet it shows it here appearing to be on land. - Unforgiven24 Talk|Contribs 23:40, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that myself quite some time ago, but I figured it just showed the boundaries in no regards to the waterway separating Grosse Ile from the mainland. I've also wondered why Grosse Ile (the island) doesn't have it's own distinct article to seperate it from Grosse Ile (the township). —Notorious4life (talk) 19:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Notable residents
I thinned out the bios a little. I suspect the section is a little wordy because no one really got born on Gross Ile, they had to get born at a hospital in another town. Then they grew up on Gross Ile or bought land there when they got rich. I haven't dug to the bottom on that; it's just a hunch. If someone can suggest a solution, please let me know and I will do the editing.Literaturegirl (talk) 16:42, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Please cite source
"Grosse Ile is considered to be one of the best locations along the Detroit River to observe commercial shipping and pleasure boat traffic."

Biased, no source.

Problematic tone - informal
"When not dressing up as chainsaw-wielding maniacs, GIYRA coordinates the youth sporting events for the island children."
 * ✅ 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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They hire terrorist
Terrorist school teachers 2600:1702:15B0:2ED0:5D92:F8E8:A9DC:B92F (talk) 08:15, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Grosse Ile Township, Michigan


text: Talk:Gull Island (Michigan)

title: Talk:Gull Island (Michigan)


text:
Talk:Harsens Island

Unsourced
I'm moving this here because it is unsourced and appears to be at least partially in conflict with other sourced information. Some of this may be salvageable, but I don't have time to address it at the moment. older ≠ wiser 23:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Actual "ownership' of the Island remains controversial to this day. After the War of 1812, the British and US governments tacitly agreed that the boundary between the US and "British North America" (i.e., Canada) ran along the western shore of the St Clair River, down the North Channel, and around Anchor Bay.  British North America began on the eastern shore of the St Clair River.  This left all the islands of the St Clair Flats as "Indian territory".  Not until 1870, when the US Army Corps of Engineers dredged the St Clair Flats Canal at the end of the South Channel of the St Clair River did the US and British governments decide that the boundary would be down the middle of the South Channel and across Lake St Clair.  Even to this day, actual "ownership" of Harsens Island is subject to controversy, with some First Nation legalists maintaining that neither the British nor the US Federal governments ever properly acquired title to the Island, or for that matter, any of the Islands on the American side of the border, from the First Nations peoples.

 * Worse, it seems to be quoted verbatim from a personal website. Is this a reliable source?  Although the author of the website seems to have some knowledge of the subject, he has a clear bias. messor (talk) 03:02, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Harsens Island


text: Talk:Huron Islands

title: Talk:Huron Islands


text:
Structural film

Structural film was an avant-garde experimental film movement prominent in the United States in the 1960s. A related movement developed in the United Kingdom in the 1970s.

United States
The earliest films associated with the structural film movement emerged during the mid 1960s. New York filmmakers from this period whose work was later associated with the term were Tony Conrad, Hollis Frampton, Ernie Gehr, Ken Jacobs, George Landow, Michael Snow, and Joyce Wieland.

The earliest flicker films associated with structural film were made in 1966. Conrad, a minimalist musician, made The Flicker, where solid black and white frames are arranged in different frequencies to produce a flicker effect. Visual artist Paul Sharits made several flicker films—Ray Gun Virus, Piece Mandala/End War, and the Fluxus film Word Movie—in an effort to revisit "the basic mechanisms of motion pictures…working toward a new conception of cinema." The two filmmakers made their respective works with knowledge of neither each other's practices nor earlier examples of flicker films.

Snow's Wavelength (1967) quickly became a turning point. The film shows a loft for 45 minutes from a fixed perspective, progressively zooming across the room with variations in the image coming from color gels, different film stocks, superimpositions, and negative images. It won the International Experimental Film Festival and was soon recognized as the movement's most significant work.

By the late 1960s, the structural film movement coincided with a shift in experimental cinema away from 1960s counterculture and toward closer affiliations with academia and film theory. In 1969 Film Culture magazine published P. Adams Sitney's essay "Structural Film", in which he coined the term. He published two revisions in the following years. Anthology Film Archives, opened in 1970, was established as an exhibition venue for avant-garde cinema and included structural films in its programming.

The structural film movement was concurrent with a renaissance of the Library of Congress's Paper Print Collection. Since the early 1950s, the library had been making film negatives from its archive of paper prints, used to establish copyright on early cinematic works until 1912. These new prints began to circulate starting in the mid to late 1960s. The sudden availability of these prints generated interest in their intermediate state between still and moving image. Filmmakers such as Jacobs and Frampton made use of the Paper Print Collection as source material for new films.

United Kingdom
In the United Kingdom, a related "structural/materialist" film movement emerged during the 1970s, similarly focused on the material properties of film. These filmmakers, often associated with the London Film-Makers' Co-op, included David Crosswaite, Fred Drummond, John Du Cane, Mike Dunford, Gill Eatherley, Peter Gidal, Roger Hammond, Mike Leggett, Malcolm Le Grice, and William Raban.

Overview
The term was coined by P. Adams Sitney who noted that film artists had moved away from the complex and condensed forms of cinema practiced by such artists as Sidney Peterson and Stan Brakhage. "Structural film" artists pursued instead a more simplified, sometimes even predetermined art. The shape of the film was crucial, the content peripheral. This term should not be confused with the literary and philosophical term structuralism.

Characteristics
Sitney identified four formal characteristics common in Structural films, but all four characteristics are not usually present in any single film:
 * fixed camera position (an apparently fixed framing)
 * flicker effect (strobing due to the intermittent nature of film)
 * loop printing
 * rephotography (off the screen)

It has been noted by George Maciunas that these characteristics are also present in Fluxus films.

Key films

 * The Flicker (Tony Conrad, 1965)
 * Wavelength (Michael Snow, 1966–67)
 * T,O,U,C,H,I,N,G (Paul Sharits, 1968)
 * One Second in Montreal (Michael Snow, 1969)
 * Tom, Tom, The Piper's Son (Ken Jacobs, 1969)
 * Necrology (Standish Lawder, 1970)
 * Variations of a Cellophane Wrapper (David Rimmer, 1970)
 * Zorns Lemma (Hollis Frampton, 1970)
 * Serene Velocity (Ernie Gehr, 1970)
 * Remedial Reading Comprehension (George Landow, 1971)
 * The United States of America (James Benning and Bette Gordon, 1975)
 * The Girl Chewing Gum (John Smith, 1976)

Key filmmakers

 * Bette Gordon
 * James Benning
 * Tony Conrad
 * Hollis Frampton
 * Ernie Gehr
 * Standish Lawder
 * Birgit and Wilhelm Hein
 * Kurt Kren
 * George Landow (a.k.a. Owen Land)
 * Paul Sharits
 * Michael Snow
 * Joyce Wieland
 * Sharon Lockhart

Legacy
Ken Jacobs's Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son and Ernie Gehr's Serene Velocity were each inducted into the National Film Registry.

Several structural films have been included on DVD sets, including the works of Hollis Frampton (released by The Criterion Collection as a part of A Hollis Frampton Odyssey ) and Standish Lawder's Necrology which appeared on the 2008 DVD set entitled Treasures IV: American Avant-Garde Film, 1947-1986.

title: Structural film


text:
Talk:Isle Royale

Pronunciation
I'm no linguistics expert. Is there a simpler way to explain the pronunciation? I cannot make heads or tails of "il-rol&le". Is it "eye'll" or "ill"? And is it "rol-and-ley" (which makes no sense)? It'd be great if someone would share a layperson's approach. -Uninformed Anon

 * Basically the "e" at the end is just cosmetic so it is pronounced the same as the normal English word royal, as in "the royal family." Rhymes with boil. -Taranah 08:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

 * the correct pronunciation is "isle" like "aisle" (think grocery store aisle, or bride walking down the aisle), and then "royale" as "royal" as in the "royal" family. Aisle Royal.   Keeper  |  76  00:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Geology
When a fuller description of geology is added, the accompanying image can be used, at at larger size. Its origin in the USGS bulletin now in External links, which is a more comprehensive and scientific source than the other geology resource cited there. Kablammo 16:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Image added. Kablammo (talk) 22:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge
I have proposed that this article be merged into Isle Royale National Park. The entire island (and islands) are in the park, and most of the content is likely to be related to the park. The past history can easily be handled in the park article. This page would of course redirect to the park.

There were prior discussion of merger, which were inconclusive. Talk:Isle_Royale_National_Park. Please discuss below. Kablammo (talk) 22:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Isle Royale itself is not the same as the park. While the articles may currently be similar, they should each be expanded and focus on their respective (different) subjects, rather than merging and losing the distinction. -- dcclark (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Isle Royale National Park is coextensive with the island; there is no part of the park that is outside the islands and their waters, and no part of the islands that are not in the park. It appears that much of the recent expansion here deals with the use of the island as a park. I would like to add some material but not to fragmented and overlapping articles.  Kablammo (talk) 01:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * However much of the park is outside the island which is the subject of the other article (not "the islands" which is not the subject). Compare this to, for instance, Mount Rainier and Mount Rainier National Park. Rmhermen (talk) 16:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I had thought that "Isle Royale" conventionally refers to both the big island and all the islets and rocks littered around it-- certainly from a geological point of view it is the same entity. I would consider Mott Island to be part of Isle Royale; perhaps others do not.  Kablammo (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose I think they should remain separate articles as per the reasoning of dcclark.  Asher196 (talk) 01:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

____________

''The following comments appear at Talk:Isle Royale National Park; I copy them here to centralize discussion. Kablammo (talk) 04:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)''

I have proposed a merger of Isle Royale into this article, which I support and is supported by a majority of those commenting above. Please discuss at Talk:Isle_Royale. Thank you. Kablammo (talk) 23:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The last merge discussion was years ago and the majority did not support it either time. Rmhermen (talk) 00:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Not by my count. Look above at Talk:Isle_Royale_National_Park; two years ago five editors supported a merge, and no one opposed it; they only differed in which article should be merged into which.  In any event I am copying this discussion to Talk:Isle_Royale so the discussion can be centralized.  Please post further comments there.  Thank you.  Kablammo (talk) 01:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * As one of the participants at that time, I did not support the move, I offered a suggestion if the merge were to proceed. I don't see any reason to alter my opinion at this time. older ≠ wiser 03:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * You are correct-- my apologies. I will cross-post to the other discussion page.  Kablammo (talk) 04:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Close of comments posted on other talk page; please continue further discussion here.

____________

Further comments. I proposed the merger for these reasons: Isle Royale-- land and park-- deserves a better treatment than these articles give it. I would be happy to collaborate in working on a merged article, but see no reason, for example, to add the same data to two articles. Kablammo (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a substantial overlap between the articles. This article has information about the park; the park article has some prior history.
 * Neither article is very impressive. One good article would be better.
 * There is an overlap in subject areas. Landforms, flora, fauna, current uses; all are common.
 * There is no clear dividing line-- even history. The institution of the national park was a process, not an event.  There were still families in residence in the 1970s.
 * The history includes not only the "island" but the other islands. Some of those islands are separated from the "mainland" by very shallow channels. Fishing operations were conducted from those smaller islands; their history is properly part of Isle Royale's history (where else would they go?) as it involved the same settlers and their descendants.

Withdrawal of merge proposal
As neither this merge proposal nor the two articles themselves have attracted much interest, and as there is neither a consensus to merge nor much work being done on these articles, I am removing the merge proposal.

For the reasons I mentioned above, I will leave further editing of these to articles to others, as I frankly don't know where to put new additions and Wikipedia has many other projects which could use attention. I hope that those who take an interest in Isle Royale will be able to give it the treatment it deserves.

Some thoughts:

 * Midcontinent Rift has some good sources on geology.
 * Geological history of Isle Royale, now the third link under External links for the Isle Royale page, does not really add anything and contains some unscientific information.
 * There is a book by a member of the Sivertson family with some good human history on Island Royale. It would be a useful resource.  The history of those families on the island did not end with establishment of the park.
 * There are a number of published sources on the wolf study. Wolves and Moose on Isle Royale has many; this is a useful starting point as well.
 * The ecology sections of these articles are entirely unreferenced—as a matter of fact the articles only share 7 footnotes between them.

Best wishes. Kablammo (talk) 16:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

 * @Kablammo It's been a long time, but I agree that these should be merged. There is substantial duplication and overlap between the articles, and the rest of what is on one page is still relevant to the other, and the split like this is a disservice to the reader, who would have to read two pages of much of the same organization and content to get all the information. Although the park technically includes islands beyond Isle Royale itself, they are so small they are still considered part of Isle Royale and share the same geography. Reywas92Talk 21:59, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's kind of an unusual situation. A very important entity as an island, and a very important entity as a National Park. But coverage of each in the normal fashion would be a 99% duplication/overlap.  I suppose a redirect from a merged one and an explanation at the beginning of the lead would handle all of that. Maybe the island one should get merged into the National park one? North8000 (talk) 01:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes that's what I think would work best to keep the national park title since the island would be unknown were it not one. I can work on something in the next couple days to see how it'd look. Reywas92Talk 04:54, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Recreational Activities
I noticed the comment on the page about the frequency of encounters with Boy Scouts, who were trying to earn their "50-mile Backpacking Merit Badge". This is incorrect, because the 50-Mile Backpacking Badge is not a "Merit Badge". It is an award, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50-miler_award —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shredthegnarbrah (talk • contribs) 17:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Coordinates
48°0′N 88°55′W is not inclusive enough. wht are the extremes in all directions? Kdammers (talk) 02:51, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Elk
Elk have been reintroduced into other places in Michigan, so the section on elk needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.179.8 (talk) 15:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Populated places
Hello all, In the section for populated places, it mentions a "Conglomerate Bay", but when one views its article, it says that it "was" an unincorporated place, implying that it no longer has any (significant) population. I felt inclined to edit the section for clarification, adding Rock Harbor and/or Windigo (as those are the closest things to a true "populated place" on the island), and possibly removing Conglomerate Bay altogether. Thoughts anyone? Sparkyb10123 (talk) 14:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Climate
After reviewing the source for the climate table, and reading the NOAA site http://www.glisaclimate.org/projects/671/page/917, I decided to remove the table. I suggest rewriting the section with information from the NOAA site, as most information online appears to be unreliable. --Asher196 (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Could a table be included along with a description that the table represents interpolated weather information and not observational data? I thinking a weather table could still be useful to readers, even if the data isn't directly from the island itself. Many places don't have their own weather station and yet weather/climate details are provided Oleandrin (talk) 03:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Good idea.  There's nothing that says that interpolated is wrong or unsuitable. North8000 (talk) 11:12, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Isle Royale


text:
Adaptive software development

Adaptive software development (ASD) is a software development process that grew out of the work by Jim Highsmith and Sam Bayer on rapid application development (RAD). It embodies the principle that continuous adaptation of the process to the work at hand is the normal state of affairs.

Adaptive software development replaces the traditional waterfall cycle with a repeating series of speculate, collaborate, and learn cycles. This dynamic cycle provides for continuous learning and adaptation to the emergent state of the project. The characteristics of an ASD life cycle are that it is mission focused, feature based, iterative, timeboxed, risk driven, and change tolerant. As with RAD, ASD is also an antecedent to agile software development.

The word speculate refers to the paradox of planning – it is more likely to assume that all stakeholders are comparably wrong for certain aspects of the project’s mission, while trying to define it. During speculation, the project is initiated and adaptive cycle planning is conducted. Adaptive cycle planning uses project initiation information—the customer’s mission statement, project constraints (e.g., delivery dates or user descriptions), and basic requirements—to define the set of release cycles (software increments) that will be required for the project.

Collaboration refers to the efforts for balancing the work based on predictable parts of the environment (planning and guiding them) and adapting to the uncertain surrounding mix of changes caused by various factors, such as technology, requirements, stakeholders, software vendors. The learning cycles, challenging all stakeholders, are based on the short iterations with design, build and testing. During these iterations the knowledge is gathered by making small mistakes based on false assumptions and correcting those mistakes, thus leading to greater experience and eventually mastery in the problem domain.

title: Adaptive software development


text: Talk:Les Cheneaux Islands

title: Talk:Les Cheneaux Islands


text:
Ben Hutton (cricketer)

Benjamin Leonard Hutton (born 29 January 1977), is an English former first-class cricketer.

Early life
Ben Hutton was educated at Radley (1990–95) and Durham University (1996-99) for whom he opened the innings with the former England captain Andrew Strauss.

He came from cricketing stock as the elder son of the cricketer Richard Hutton and his grandfathers Sir Leonard Hutton and Ben Brocklehurst also played first-class cricket.

Career
He represented Middlesex as a left-handed opening batsman, an enthusiastic fielder and occasional right-arm fast-medium bowler. He made his first-class debut in 1999 and was awarded his county cap in 2003. He captained the County between 2005 and 2006. In 108 first-class matches for the county, he scored 5,712 runs (average 33.60) with a highest score of 152 with 18 hundreds and 18 fifties and taking 136 catches. He announced his retirement from first-class cricket in October 2007 at the early age of 30.

Retirement
He commenced a new career in the City and also completed the term of Don Bennett as a member of the Middlesex County Cricket Club Executive Board (2011–2012).

He joined Berenberg Bank in November 2007.

title: Ben Hutton (cricketer)


text: Talk:Manitou Islands

title: Talk:Manitou Islands


text:
Talk:Poverty Island

Le Griffon section
The anecdote on ‘’Le Griffon’’ occupies the one and only level 2 section, overshadowing the rest of the article. The artifact is NOT from ‘’Le Griffon’’ or any shipwreck. Unless some future development of this story occurs, I think the section can be downgraded to an ordinary paragraph, or even moved into a footnote. This not the place to be expounding on the history of ‘’Le Griffon’’ 168.103.230.2 (talk) 18:25, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Poverty Island


text:
Talk:Jim Gray (UDA member)

Terrorist?
Is anyone seriously suggesting that Jim Gray wasn't a terrorist? Anyone? Ben-w 16:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Not me, but it is a loaded word and therefore we cannot use it in the way you are doing, SqueakBox 16:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

"Loaded" or not, it is unambiguously the case. The UDA is a terrorist group as defined by the governments of both nations in which it operates. Gray was a senior leader of it and directed many of its activities. You don't get more terrorist-y than that. "Loyalist" describes many people who aren't terrorists. Ben-w 16:44, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

UDA member is very clear and not POV. You start calling him terrorist and then you have to do the same for Martin McGuinness, etc, so in order to avoid controversy wikipedia uses the t-word as little as possible, SqueakBox 19:12, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure if this discussion is about the previous title of the article, in which he was presented as a terrorist. That will certainly not do. The other title, with 'loyalist', doesn't have that problem, but is too vague (there can be all sorts of loyalists). So the present title "Jim Gray (UDA member)" is a much better option.
 * As for the info in the article, saying he is a terrorist won't do either, firsly because an encyclopedia cannot take such a stand and secondly because the definition of the term terrorist is problematic. I believe even the UN don't have such a definition because they can not agree on one (I see the intro to that article has changed - before it mentioned the ambiguity, now it doesn't anymore). However, if he is often considered a terrorist, that should be mentioned. And by whom.
 * Furthermore, the general info in the intro to Ulster Defence Association doesn't need to be repeated here (the link suffices), just what's specific to this man. I'll give it a go, see what you think. It's become more 'stubby' in the process, but that can't be helped. Whether the precise term should be 'generally' or 'often' or 'sometimes', I haven't a clue. You fight that out :) . DirkvdM 07:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, I think that many people inside the Unionist community viewed him as a terrorist, too. Ben-w 23:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I have reworded it, but it still implies there are people who don't think he is a terrorist, SqueakBox 23:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I've just stumbled across this; my advice is to avoid the word terrorist at all. Keeping it in requires all sorts of circumlocutions - this group would probably call him one but that wouldn't, &c &c - and the article as it stands was a mess. "expelled from the illegal organisation which runs drug and extortion rackets" is true, yes - but it looks like an attempt to shoehorn in POV, especially when coupled with the terrorist comment. We've said he's a member of an illegal paramilitary organisation, given the name, which seems pretty much all you need to do; the chances of anyone reading the article and coming away with the impression he's a lovely guy are minimal anyway, so... I've tried redrafting the entire thing; thoughts? Shimgray | talk | 01:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

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Child molestor too?
Aside from the sex tourism with teenage boys in Thailand, is there any other evidence that Gray was running around raping little boys? -User:DanTD (talk) 12:25, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jim Gray (UDA member)


text: Talk:Sugar Island (Michigan)

title: Talk:Sugar Island (Michigan)


text: Talk:North Manitou Island

title: Talk:North Manitou Island


text:
Talk:South Manitou Island

Lighthouse
The lighthouse on South Manitou Island (Lake Michigan) does not mark the harbor. The lighthouse is on the southern shore and historically was the primary light for the Manitou Passage. When the "crib" was constructed on the southern edge of the North Manitou Shoal (almost the center of the visible passage), the island light was no longer needed. The South Manitou harbor is clearly visible from the lighthouse, and no doubt, vessels headed for the harbor took bearings from the light, but that was not its primary purpose. It has been some time since I was in the lighthouse and associated buildings. I hope they are being protected and preserved. There was neither happening 40 years ago.

Cedars
In the late 1960's a small metallic plaque on the largest of these cedars stated it was the largest White Cedar in North America. I would add this to the body, but don't know if the plaque is still there (I saw it myself in the late 1960's) or if this assertion on comparative size has been confirmed.RDavS (talk) 04:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Uninhabited
Three places in the article state that the island is "uninhabited", but I disagree with that interpretation. Since there is a park ranger living on the island in a private residence, I would say the island is in fact inhabited. Asher196 (talk) 15:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

History
South Manitou Island has rich history that should be included within the article. From the logging community to the hauntings of the old school house building, Mr. Roberts' Lost Children, and the Indian tribes that inhabited the island. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.14.65 (talk) 15:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If you can find sources, that would make a great addition.--Asher196 (talk) 01:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:South Manitou Island


text:
Talk:Zug Island

Dump for a memorial?
The comment that he died "leaving a dump for a memorial" may in fact be the case, but I suspect this phrase rings of some type of anger or bitterness at the physical condition of the island today. From an environmental standpoint, the area is certainly a mess--it's probably one of the most polluted places on earth--but the statement sounds somewhat unprofessional. I recommend removing it, or rephrasing it to reflect the legacy of pollution in some other way.--Bdmccray (talk) 02:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Zug Island


text:
Talk:John Harding (Sha ko hen the tha)

Clean-up
I've looked at this article and have done some minor editing but am still scratching my head. At present, it is not really about sha ko hen the tha (John Harding). It is an account of a struggle at Kanesatake in which Harding was one of the players. As it stands now, the article is unencyclopedic. Sources that give a relatively neutral account are hard to come by, so it will take some digging. However, I'm not sure Harding is all that notable. We may want to rename the article, but to what I don't yet have an idea. Thoughts? Sunray 16:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Good point, Sunray. How about merging it into Kanesatake, Quebec? By the way, the article on Steven Bonspille is now jsut a stub, and possibly libellous at that. Ground Zero | t 17:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * A merge might be a good way to go. At the very least, we could port most of the material in this article over to the Kanesatake article (it needs beefing up anyway).  We might want to leave a short article for both Harding and Bonspille (I'm still researching that and will let you know what I find).  I've removed the potentially libelous comments from the article about Steven Bonspille and added a few more details (still to be fact checked).  Sunray 21:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The plot thickens. I'm now sorting through a variety of media accounts from mainstream and indymedia sources, which I will put up on the Kanesatake article. From what I've read so far, the James Gabriel article appears to be a fairly accurate account—though, here again, the article is less about Gabriel than it is about this incident. Looking at all the verbiage in the various articles with an eye to what will be historically significant, it is apparent that the whole shebang will need some fierce editing. Sunray 00:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you guys are a little myopic. Why not J.Harding, born ..lived..died...end of story. A cow could write meaningless crap like that. Meat needs to be on the bone or you risk losing focus. ie Faraday was famous because he was Faraday or because of WHAT he discovered. What can outsiders like yourselves reveal better than an insider ? is it "participation" or are you guys running the show? How are you going to "research" this, by reading the news clips...the real story comes from the insiders who knew what happened behind the scenes and THATS the story here, that a few people took on the Canadian govt and beat it. you guys dont know jacks**t [ unsigned comments by: Robinhoodlives 20:38, October 5, 2005].

 * Well, no, I won't be the one writing your "cow" story. Nor would I claim that an "outsider" can reveal more than an insider.  If you want to participate, you might try reading what I've said rather than make a bunch of assumptions and then begin with the insults.  Try civility for starters.  Sunray 06:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you miss the point I was making. First off telling someone something straight-up is not un-civil, grow up! (thats uncivil). I also made no assumptions but you did!. Isn't it funny how us dumb uncivil indians cant quite measure up to your standards. Our take on things isn't right and needs whitey's touch to make it "better". Can you recognise latent racism ?. Sure, deny and justify! [ unsigned comments by: Robinhoodlives 16:40, October 6, 2005].

 * I honestly didn't know you were from India. :-)

 * Seriously, do you want to work on this article (see my comments below). Insider info would be great.  I will try not to be racist if you will. Sunray 03:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

To the anon editor: first, welcome to Wikipedia! I hope that you enjoy your time here and that you can help contribute to this great project. It would a good idea for you to read up on how Wikipedia works if you're going to be here for a while. Like any community, we have policies and rules to help things work better. Sunray has pointed you in the direction of the Wikipedia policy on "civility". Some of your comments were not very civil: "you guys dont know jacks**t". Since you're new here, you can't be expected to know how things work, and everyone makes mistakes when they're starting out. (I certainly did!) So please, take some time to read up on things to the Community Portal (linked from the menu on the left of your screen). I also encourage you to register with a username. It makes it much easier for people to commnicate with you and vice versa. You can leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Best regards, Ground Zero | t 10:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * He does have a user name (Robinhoodlives) but may not know how to add a signature by typing four tildes ~, (a good thing to do as it helps keep track of who said what/when). Robinhoodlives has done some work on the article and it is apparent that he was there.  I'm wondering if he could provide some biographical info on sha ko hen the tha and also help with the story of the policing and governance issues at Kanesatake over the past many years.  Sunray 16:08, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Insider/Outsider information
Insider informtion on these events would definitely add to the article. The thing we need to do (in an encyclopedia) is make sure we can verify what we say. To do that we need reliable sources. Sources don't have to be mainstream. In this case there are lots of accounts from Mohawk Community newspapers and other First Nations sources. There are also indymedia sources. Whatever the source, though, we need to stick to observations and facts (e.g., Harding said... Gabriel did...) rather than supposition (e.g., Gabriel planned... Harding thought...). In other words, they might have planned many things, what did they do? Sunray 16:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:John Harding (Sha ko hen the tha)


text:
Talk:Turtle Island (Lake Erie)

Is this a Michigan and an Ohio lighthouse?
If the article is right about the boundary dispute and its resolution, should this also be listed as a Lighthouse of Michigan? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC) Stan
 * It technically isn't. I checked on Google Maps; 90% of the modern island is in Ohio, probably including the lighthouse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.179.218.10 (talk) 08:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

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Jurisdiction
Every article I've ever seen that mentions the Supreme Court ruling on the jurisdiction is that the island lays entirely within Ohio. This is important since Michigan had always claimed at least half the island or rather that a line went through the center of the island at a particular angle. This page appears to try and confuse the definitive ruling? Criticalthinker (talk) 00:37, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Turtle Island (Lake Erie)


text:
User talk:Thrakiotis

Edit on Arvanites
Hi, this is just a warning to say that you've entered editing on this article at a very sensitive time. Three editors have been blocked for edit warring there and your intervention could make you appear to be a sock puppet of a blocked editor. Please avoid engaging in any edits on this article (to wit: reverts) that might place you under suspicion. Thanks. --Tony Sidaway Talk 16:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello there
When I came here I got the following message:

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

and even though I'm not an administrator I'd like to try to welcome you here. +MATIA ☎ 23:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I hope this balances the things a little. You did join wikipedia at a very strange time for Arvanites. While I do discourage you to edit this article, I hope you let us know what you think and what you know about it. +MATIA ☎ 23:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Thrakiotis


text:
Gulshan Grover

Gulshan Grover (born 21 September 1955) is an Indian actor and film producer who has appeared in over 100 films. He is popularly known as the "Bad Man" of Hindi cinema because of his ability to create an impact with his negative roles in films.

Early life
Grover holds a post graduate degree from Delhi's Sri Ram College of Commerce and was associated with ‘Little Theatre Group’ for a long time before launching into the Hindi film industry.

title: Gulshan Grover


text: File:Platelunch.jpg

title: File:Platelunch.jpg


text:
Xiaoshu

小暑 or 小暑 (in chinese), Shōsho, Soseo, Tiểu thử or Xiǎoshǔ (in pinyin) is the 11th solar term, in the traditional chinese lunisolar calendar which divides a year into 24 ones.

It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 105° (more often referring in particular to the precise day when our star is exactly at this one), and ends when it reaches the 120th (in the Gregorian calendar it usually begins around 7 July and ends around 22 July or 23 in East Asia time).

title: Xiaoshu


text:
Dashu (solar term)

The traditional Chinese calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms. Dàshǔ (大暑), Taisho, Daeseo, or Đại thử (Chinese and Japanese: 大暑; pinyin: dàshǔ; rōmaji: taisho; Korean: 대서; romaja: daeseo; Vietnamese: đại thử; "major heat") is the 12th solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 120° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 135°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 120°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around 22 July (23 July Chinese lunisolar calendar time) and ends around 7 August.

title: Dashu (solar term)


text:
Shuangjiang (solar term)

The traditional Chinese calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms (节气/節氣). Shuāngjiàng, Sōkō, Sanggang, or Sương giáng is the 18th solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 210° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 225°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 210°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around October 23 and ends around November 7.

The western holiday of Halloween occurs in this solar term.

Pentads

 * 豺乃祭獸, 'Dholes make offerings of the beasts'
 * 草木黃落, 'The plants yellow and shed leaves'
 * 蟄蟲咸俯, 'All insects go dormant'

title: Shuangjiang (solar term)


text:
Chushu

The traditional Chinese calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms. Chǔshǔ, Shosho, Cheoseo, or Xử thử is the 14th solar term that signifies the end of the hot summer season. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 150° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 165°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 150°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around 23 August and ends around 7 September.

Pentads

 * 鷹乃祭鳥, 'Eagles worship the Birds'
 * 天地始肅, 'Heaven and Earth begin to Withdraw', alluding to the end of summer
 * 禾乃登, 'Grains become Ripe'

title: Chushu


text:
Hanlu

The traditional Chinese calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms (節氣). Hánlù, Kanro, Hallo, or Hàn lộ is the 17th solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 195° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 210°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 195°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around October 8 and ends around October 23.

Pentads

 * 鴻雁來賓, 'The guest geese arrive' – Geese which completed their migration in summer were considered 'hosts', and the later-flying ones as 'guests'. This pentad can also be interpreted as 'The geese arrive at the water's edge'.
 * 雀入大水為蛤, 'The sparrows enter the ocean and become clams'
 * 菊有黃華, 'Chrysanthemums bloom yellow' – the chrysanthemum is known as one of the few flowers to bloom in autumn.

title: Hanlu


text:
Lidong

The traditional Chinese calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms. Lìdōng, Rittō, Ipdong, or Lập đông is the 19th solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 225° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 240°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 225°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around November 7 and ends around November 22.

Lidong signifies the beginning of winter in East Asian cultures.

Pentads

 * 水始冰, 'Water begins to freeze' – the initial stages of water bodies freezing over.
 * 地始凍, 'The earth begins to harden'
 * 雉入大水為蜃, 'Pheasants enter the water for clams'

title: Lidong


text:
Liqiu

The traditional Chinese calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms. Lìqiū, Risshū, Ipchu, or Lập thu is the 13th solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 135° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 150°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 135°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around August 7 and ends around August 23.

Liqiu signifies the beginning of autumn in East Asian cultures.

title: Liqiu


text:
Xiaoxue

The traditional Chinese lunisolar calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms (節氣). Xiǎoxuě is the 20th solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 240° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 255°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 240°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around 22 November and ends around 7 December.

Pentads

 * 虹藏不見, 'Rainbows are concealed from view'. It was believed that rainbows were the results of yin and yang energy mixing; winter, being dominated by yin, would not present rainbows.
 * 天氣上騰地氣下降, 'The Qi of the sky ascends, the qi of the earth descends'
 * 閉塞而成冬, 'Closure and stasis create winter'. The end of mixing between sky and earth, yin and yang, leads to the dormancy of winter.

title: Xiaoxue


text:
Daxue (solar term)

The traditional Chinese lunisolar calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms. Dàxuě is the 21st solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 255° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 270°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 255°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around 7 December and ends around 21 December (22 December East Asia time).

Pentads

 * 鶡旦不鳴, 'The jie-bird ceases to crow': the jie is a bird, similar to the pheasant, which is believed to be aggressive and combatant. As winter progresses, even this active bird slows and ceases to crow.
 * 虎始交, 'Tigers begin to mate'
 * 荔挺生, 'The litchi plant (tree) starts to germinate.'

title: Daxue (solar term)


text:
Bailu (solar term)

The traditional Chinese calendar divides a year into 24 solar terms. Báilù, Hakuro, Baengno, or Bạch lộ is the 15th solar term. It begins when the Sun reaches the celestial longitude of 165° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 180°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the Sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 165°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around September 7 and ends around September 23. Mid-Autumn Festival is celebrated around this time.

Pentads

 * 鴻雁來, 'The wild geese come' – referring to the southward migration of geese.
 * 玄鳥歸, 'The dark birds return' – 'dark birds' refer to swallows.
 * 群鳥養羞, 'Birds stock their hoards' – i.e. in preparation for winter.

title: Bailu (solar term)