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102 Petty France

102 Petty France is an office block on Petty France in Westminster, London, overlooking St. James's Park, which was designed by Fitzroy Robinson & Partners, with Sir Basil Spence, and completed in 1976. It was well known as the main location for the UK Home Office between 1978 and 2004, when it was known as 50 Queen Anne's Gate; it now houses departments including the Ministry of Justice, His Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the Government Legal Department. The building is 56 m high, with 14 floors providing 51000 m2 of office space.

History
The site was previously occupied by the 14-storey mansion block Queen Anne's Mansions, which was despised by some architectural commentators: Lord Reigate, speaking in the House of Lords in 1972 against the plans for the new building, used Nikolaus Pevsner's description "that irredeemable horror". However, the new building's architecture was not favourably received, either, owing to its scale and massing with protruding elements at the upper and lower floors, often being described as a Brutalist design: it was sometimes known to those who worked there as "the Lubyanka". Fodor's guide to London described it as "hulking", and Lord St John of Fawsley remarked that "Basil Spence's barracks in Hyde Park ruined that park; in fact, he has the distinction of having ruined two parks, because of his Home Office building, which towers above St James's Park." The building originated as a speculative office development, but the Home Office moved in owing to lack of space in its previous headquarters in Whitehall.

In spring 2005, the Home Office moved to a new purpose-built building at 2 Marsham Street designed by Terry Farrell. The Queen Anne's Gate building had major refurbishment work carried out on it, whilst being under the ownership of Land Securities. It has been the home of the Ministry of Justice and the Tribunals Service since 2008, with the building renamed 102 Petty France.

title: 102 Petty France


text:
1970 in Australia

The following lists events that happened during 1970 in Australia.

Incumbents

 * Monarch – Elizabeth II
 * Governor-General – Sir Paul Hasluck
 * Prime Minister – John Gorton
 * Deputy Prime Minister – John McEwen
 * Opposition Leader – Gough Whitlam
 * Chief Justice – Sir Garfield Barwick

State and territory leaders

 * Premier of New South Wales – Robert Askin
 * Opposition Leader – Pat Hills
 * Premier of Queensland – Joh Bjelke-Petersen
 * Opposition Leader – Jack Houston
 * Premier of South Australia – Steele Hall (until 2 June), then Don Dunstan
 * Opposition Leader – Don Dunstan (until 2 June), then Steele Hall
 * Premier of Tasmania – Angus Bethune
 * Opposition Leader – Eric Reece
 * Premier of Victoria – Sir Henry Bolte
 * Opposition Leader – Clyde Holding
 * Premier of Western Australia – Sir David Brand
 * Opposition Leader – John Tonkin

Governors and administrators

 * Governor of New South Wales – Sir Roden Cutler
 * Governor of Queensland – Sir Alan Mansfield
 * Governor of South Australia – Major General Sir James William Harrison
 * Governor of Tasmania – Lieutenant General Sir Edric Bastyan
 * Governor of Victoria – Major General Sir Rohan Delacombe
 * Governor of Western Australia – Major General Sir Douglas Kendrew
 * Administrator of Norfolk Island – Robert Dalkin
 * Administrator of the Northern Territory – Roger Dean (until 4 March), then Frederick Chaney
 * Administrator of Papua and New Guinea – David Hay (until July), then Les Johnson

Events

 * 1 January – Newcastle, New South Wales suffers a fierce hailstorm.
 * 3 January – Police in Liverpool, Sydney conduct a high speed car chase after Wally Mellish, a central figure in the July 1968 Glenfield siege.
 * 4 January – The Victorian Government appoints William Kaye, QC to investigate allegations that some senior police officers took bribes from abortion care providers.
 * 1,000 New South Wales state powerhouse operators go on strike.
 * 5 January – Federal Opposition Leader Gough Whitlam tells a meeting of Wewak Councillors in Port Moresby that the Territory House of Assembly was a "rubber stamp" for policies formulated in Canberra.
 * 7 January – The U.S. seismic survey vessel Polaris catches fire at Port Adelaide, causing $750,000 worth of damage.
 * Federal Opposition Leader Gough Whitlam announces in Rabaul, Papua New Guinea that a New Guinean would be appointed as Administrator of the Territory immediately if Labor won the next election.
 * The Australian Wheatgrowers' Federation recommends a national wheat quota reduction for the 1970–71 season.
 * 8 January – The Army Minister Andrew Peacock denies the statement made the previous day by senior Labor figure Jim Cairns that Australian officers in Vietnam had suggested to troops that they would be home by June.
 * Queensland Labor Senator George Georges rejects oil company assurances that drilling in the Great Barrier Reef area could be done in such away that the reef would be preserved in an untouched state.
 * 12 January – Prime Minister John Gorton announces the number of cannons to be distributed and the locations of these cannons for the Captain Cook celebrations. New South Wales, Canberra and Queensland will each receive one of the six cannons jettisoned by Captain Cook from the Endeavour on the Great Barrier Reef in 1770.
 * National Development Minister Reg Swartz announces that an Australian team is in San Francisco drawing up specifications for Australia's first nuclear power station to be stationed at Jervis Bay.
 * Three-year-old Cheryl Grimmer vanishes from Fairy Meadow Beach near Wollongong.
 * 13 January – US Vice-President Spiro Agnew arrives in Canberra. 14 are arrested during protests outside Parliament House over Mr. Agnew's visit on 14 January.
 * 14 January – Prime Minister Gorton announces that Ampol Exploration Ltd. is not proceeding with its intention to drill for oil in the Great Barrier Reef pending a thorough examination of whether there might be damage to the reef.
 * 15 January –
 * Brisbane is hit by a dust storm.
 * Sydney police receive a $10,000 ransom note for the return of missing three-year-old Cheryl Grimmer.
 * Canberra police investigate possibly dangerous chemicals thrown into the swimming pool of the Prime Minister's Lodge which appeared to be eating into the tiled walls of the pool in which Prime Minister Gorton swims every morning.
 * 17 January – Cyclone Ada hits Central Queensland, killing 14.
 * 19 January – Queensland Premier Joh Bjelke-Petersen agrees to a Commonwealth-State inquiry into oil-drilling on the Great Barrier Reef.
 * Prime Minister John Gorton announces that Federal Cabinet has accepted the recommendation of a Senate select committee for Australia to adopt the metric system of weights and measures.
 * The six Premiers unanimously agree in Adelaide to approach Prime Minister John Gorton with a long-range plan aimed at States levying their own income-tax.
 * 21 January – A thunderstorm in Brisbane causes damage to 1,000 homes, widespread power blackouts and peak-hour traffic chaos.
 * Dick Klugman, Labor MP for Prospect, reveals that a middle-aged Ukrainian migrant, Mr. Bronislaw Chyrzynski, had been held in Long Bay Gaol for nearly four weeks because he could not speak English.
 * 22 January – Seven men, including high-ranking Victorian police officers are named in connection with an alleged abortion protection racket at the Victorian Government's Board of Inquiry into allegations of police corruption over abortions.
 * Federal Cabinet reaches a final agreement on the introduction of common health fees acceptable to the Australian Medical Association.
 * Primary Industry Minister Doug Anthony announces at Casino that Australia has agreed to sell about 30,000 tons of meat – worth about $25 million- to Russia within the next six months.
 * 18 February – The Queensland Country Party is defeated in the Albert by-election.
 * 21 April – The Hutt River Province Principality is established.
 * 3 May – A new international terminal is opened at Sydney Airport
 * 1 July – Melbourne Airport is officially opened.
 * 15 October – A portion of the West Gate Bridge in Melbourne collapses, killing 35
 * 21 November – 1970 Australian Senate election: The Liberal/Country Coalition government led by Prime Minister John Gorton and the Labor Party led by Gough Whitlam each ended up with 26 seats; both suffering a swing against them. The Democratic Labor Party won an additional seat and held the balance of power in the Senate. To date, this was the last occasion where a Senate election was held without an accompanying House of Representatives election.
 * Establishment of the Aboriginal Legal Service (NSW/ACT).
 * Pope Paul VI visits Australia.
 * Elizabeth II and other members of the royal family tour Australia.

Arts and literature

 * Germaine Greer publishes her book, The Female Eunuch.
 * Eric Smith wins the Archibald Prize with his portrait Gruzman – Architect
 * Frederick Bates wins the Wynne Prize for landscape with his painting Redfern – Southern Portal
 * Dal Stivens's novel A Horse of Air wins the Miles Franklin Award

Film

 * The Naked Bunyip
 * The Set
 * Squeeze a Flower

Sport

 * 26 September – Carlton defeats Collingwood by 10 points in the VFL Grand Final. In other Australian rules football leagues Clarence defeated New Norfolk in the TFL, Sturt defeated Glenelg in the SANFL and it was South Fremantle defeating Perth in the WANFL.
 * 19 September – The South Sydney Rabbitohs defeated Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles 23–12 in the NSWRL Grand Final at the Sydney Cricket Ground. Souths captain John Sattler played most of the game with a broken jaw. Parramatta finish in last position, claiming the wooden spoon.
 * 26 September – John Farrington wins his second men's national marathon title, clocking 2:15:27 in Werribee.
 * Baghdad Note wins the Melbourne Cup.
 * Victoria wins the Sheffield Shield.
 * Buccaneer takes line honours and Pacha wins on handicap in the Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race.
 * The US yacht Intrepid defeats the Australian yacht Gretel II in the America's Cup.
 * Australia defeats Germany 3–0 in the Federation Cup.
 * Margaret Court becomes the second woman to win the Grand Slam of tennis.
 * John Newcombe wins both the singles and doubles championships at Wimbledon.
 * Johnny Famechon defeats Fighting Harada to retain the WBC featherweight championship.

Births

 * 5 January – Nigel Gaffey, rugby league player
 * 8 January – Rachel Friend, actress
 * 17 January – Craig Crawford, politician
 * 24 January – Luke Egan, surfer
 * 27 January – Bradley Clyde, rugby league footballer
 * 9 February – Glenn McGrath, cricketer
 * 10 February – Melissa Doyle, television personality
 * 11 February – Troy Grant, politician
 * 12 February – Marty Hunt, politician
 * 16 February – Kimberley Kitching, politician (d. 2022)
 * 25 February – Peter Lew, businessman
 * 1 March – Joe Kelly, politician and nurse
 * 4 April – Jason Stoltenberg, tennis player
 * 19 April – Anthony Roberts, politician
 * 11 May – Dean Capobianco, track and field sprinter
 * 17 May – Jodie Rogers, diver
 * 25 May – Danni Roche, field hockey player
 * 1 June – Georgie Gardner, journalist and television host
 * 3 June – Jamie Durie, television host, author, and landscaper
 * 8 June – Stephen Renouf, rugby league footballer
 * 11 June – David Elliott, politician
 * 2 July – Matt McEachan, politician
 * 4 July – Tony Vidmar, soccer player
 * 8 July – Lisa Powell, field hockey forward
 * 10 July – Adam Hills, comedian and television presenter
 * 13 July – Sandon Stolle, tennis player
 * 19 July – Ashley Paske, actor
 * 26 July – Yvette D'Ath, politician
 * 27 July – Luke Foley, politician
 * 31 July – John Sidoti, politician
 * 27 August – Andy Bichel, cricketer
 * 3 September – Elisa Roberts, politician
 * 4 September – Deni Hines, singer
 * 15 September – Michael Usher, journalist
 * 22 September – Gladys Berejiklian, New South Wales politician, 45th Premier of New South Wales
 * 27 October – Gerard Reinmuth, architect
 * 8 November – David Cervinski, soccer player (d. 2019)
 * 17 November – Tania Zaetta, television personality
 * 18 November – Peta Wilson, actress
 * 21 November – Justin Langer, cricketer
 * 23 November – Stirling Hinchliffe, politician
 * 26 November – Dave Hughes, comedian
 * 27 November – Jason Woodforth, politician
 * 17 December – Lachlan Millar, politician

Deaths

 * 17 February – Sir John Jensen, 85, public servant
 * 13 March – Dick Eve, 68, Olympic gold medallist diver (1924)
 * 20 March – Arthur Corbett, 93, public servant
 * 1 May – Nan Chauncy, 69, children's author
 * 13 May – William Dobell, 70, artist and sculptor
 * 21 May – Elliot Lovegood Grant Watson, 84, writer and anthropologist (born and died in the United Kingdom)
 * 2 July – Jessie Street, 81, suffragette and feminist (born in British Raj)
 * 14 August – Bede Fanning, 84, public servant
 * 30 October – John Loder, 2nd Baron Wakehurst, 75, 29th Governor of New South Wales (born and died in the United Kingdom)
 * 24 November – Tilly Devine, 70, underworld figure (born in the United Kingdom)
 * 12 December – Doris Blackburn, 81, women's rights activist and politician
 * 14 December – William Slim, 79, 13th Governor-General of Australia (born and died in the United Kingdom)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: 1970 in Australia


text:
Talk:Seine fishing

Misspelled
in the sub heading Danish Seines the last sentnce of the 4th paragraph contains the word 'usefulin'. This should be changed to 'useful in' Quote - 'It is especially usefulin northern regions, but not much in tropical and sub-tropical regions.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.181.7 (talk) 09:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Other kinds of seine?
I found this article after reading a mention of a "mullet seine" in a Carl Hiaasen novel but only the "purse seine" is covered here. Are there other kinds? --Arnoldlover 16:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * If you learn about other kinds of seine, please make an entry in this article. I don't know anything about them, except that my father visited Peru and spent a few days on a sardine fishing boat, which works with sardine seines. I am not qualified to write about them, however. Wadsworth 20:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Image needed
I think it would be most helpful to have a photo or drawing of a seine so a new reader can better visualize what is discussed. --Arnoldlover 16:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Where did all this text come from?
It seems slightly dubious that the majority of this article showed up rather suddenly from an anonymous user. I can't find a source but it resembles a copyvio to me. Also, it's not really entirely applicable to the subject. I don't want to start deleting stuff, but sometimes that would seem like the best solution. I'm not sure what to do in this situation. -- Krash 15:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The text came from me. I'm a third generation commerical fisherman, and grew up on the fishing boats. I though I'd contribute my knowledge to this wonderful repository. Unfortunately, when I entered the text and made my initial corrections, I had neglected to log in. So it shows as anonymous. Is there a way to claim responsibility for this text after the fact? -- User:Wadsworth 6 October 2005

 * You just did. But in terms of edit history, I don't think there's any way to change that now.
 * It's good text. I'm not questioning its validity/authenticity/etc.  It might be considered borderline NPOV dispute ("Now comes the funnest part, all fishermen agree: brailing"), but that's not really what I'm concerned about here.  I'm having a difficult time applying what Wikipedia is not, particularly Wikipedia is not an instruction manual to the article.  This article should be about a fishing net.  Not how to use such a fishing net.  Just seems like too much information – too much information that's not directly related to the subject. This is an encyclopedia.  Perhaps this would be better at home at Wikibooks. -- Krash 15:20, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm glad you like my article. I wrote this before I read about NPOV, so you are certainly correct, the funnest part comment should go. I'll fix it. I disagree that describing the usage of an object is beyond the scope of an encyclopedia. Even the entry for can opener has information on how it is used. A purse seine is much more complicated, and I think there is value in preserving the information. Besides, am I wrong saying that it is much more interesting than a can opener? Also, there are no images in this article, and all the text I wrote taxes up a fraction of 1% of the disk spaced used by one of the two images of can openers in their article. This is far from an instruction manual. But it is enough information that if a person watched a video of a set, and followed along with this article, she would have a fair chance of identifying what was going on and why. -- Wadsworth 9 October 2005

 * I'm having a hard time with your comparison to can opener.  I find very few--if any--similarities between the instructional portions of each article.  One sums it up in about a sentence.  The other goes on for some umpteen paragraphs.  You're neither right nor wrong; that you find a purse seine more interesting than a can opener is your opinion.  I'm not concerned with Wikimedia's disk space, I'm sure they have plenty of it.  But I am concerned that this is unencyclopedic.  That doesn't mean I don't think it's true or verifiable or accurate.  I just don't think it belongs.  I'm listing this page at Third opinion just to see what someone else might have to say on the subject. -- Krash 01:59, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

 * According to the dictionary, "Encyclopedia: a work that contains information on all branches of knowledge or treats comprehensively a particular branch of knowledge usually in articles arranged alphabetically often by subject." This article provides information on the subject of purse seining. I'm really not sure what the problem is.

I don't think that the article is actually like an instruction manual. I see it more as a description of the process used in this type of fishing, which is totally appropriate. There is a distinction between giving advice and describing a process. I'm a patent lawyer, so I do both regularly. To the extent that the article reads like an instruction manual, that can be changed, but I don't think that's really what this article is about. CO GDEN  17:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the description of the process goes into excessive detail, especially regarding aspects of the fishing that aren't directly related to the actual net and its use. The Literate Engineer 19:52, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I think Wadsworth did a very good job explaining the process of making a set, and Alaska seining in general. As a Kodiak seiner, I very much appreciate his eye for detail and cogent, lucid explanation of the process. The fact that he also explains some of the emotions involved in the process makes me smile at the accuracy and the in-depth, firsthand knowledge he uses to inform the reader. I am quite happy with the article, as this information isn't widely available elsewhere. I would only add that sac-roe herring seining is, for the purposes of this article, practically identical with the exception that much more care and a few other techniques are used to keep the net from sinking. With the typically larger amounts of fish and heavier sets, and the herring's propensity for dying and sinking as well as "conking" or pushing the net down, it's easy to understand how a large set of herring can and has sunk boats and killed crew. Generally, buoyant bouys are tied to the corkline after pursing to prevent the net and fish from sinking everything. Herring seining is usually a highly competitive, pressure packed situation for the fisherman as the season is sometimes only open in a given place (like Togiak) for 20 minutes at a time! "Bait" herring, typically herring caught before they are ready to spawn, for bait and food, is a different matter. It's generally done at night and, as even a small light will frighten the fish to dive below net level, usually the only light available to guide the fishermen is bioluminescence from disturbed plankton in the wake of the skiff and seine. It's a very exciting, although nerve wracking, process for the fishermen! As seining bait herring is only legal under very specific times and places in Alaska, I don't think this explanation is very important for this article.

I'm debating putting in some information on the management and measures used by managers to regulate harvests and ensure sustainability of Alaskan and Canadian salmon and herring fisheries. Is this beyond the scope of the article? Allpoints 74.61.116.21 11:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Negative Aspects of Seine fishing?
It would be nice to see a section of this article regarding unintended consequences of seine fishing such as by-catch and effects on dolphin populations.Rigbyl7 00:22, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

 * According to data illustrated at http://www.ted.com/talks/enric_sala.html the negative consequences are so devastating, that the fishing industry actually makes *more money* after seine nets are banned (basically since the fish populations begin rising). Cesiumfrog (talk) 01:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Second
I would like to second the notion to include harmful consequences of this practise in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.191.169.117 (talk) 18:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Alaska Salmon Seining Is Sustainable And Ecologically Responsible
There are very few known "Unintended consequences" in the Alaskan seine fisheries. The effect on the Dall's porpoise, Pacific whitesided dolphin, orca, and the whale species, including the salmon dependent beluga, is small and indirect, with more positives from the sustainable management of the wild salmon resource known than negatives.

I would be quite interested in adding the extremely low bycatch numbers in the Alaska salmon and herring fisheries, but feel the addition of such fisheries-specific information would only serve to further limit the focus of this article. There are a lot of other purse seine fisheries in the world.

The mean annual fisheries related mortality of Dall's porpoise in the United States averages 1.89 animals (95% boat strikes) (Buckland, 1993)

"Until 2003, there were six different federally-regulated commercial fisheries in Alaska that could have interacted with Pacific white-sided dolphins. These fisheries were monitored for incidental mortality by fishery observers. As of 2003, changes in fishery definitions in the List of Fisheries have resulted in separating these six fisheries into 22 fisheries (69 FR 70094, 2 December 2004). This change does not represent a change in fishing effort, but provides managers with better information on the component of each fishery that is responsible for the incidental serious injury or mortality of marine mammal stocks in Alaska. There were no serious injuries or mortalities incidental to observed commercial fisheries between 2000 and 2004"(Perez 2006).

"The estimated annual level of human-caused mortality and serious injury [to killer whales] (0.4 animals per year) is less than the PBR (3.1)." (Perez 2006)

...

However, I can offer anecdotal information on the bycatch incidental to Alaska salmon and herring purse seining that can be easily validated by law and current science, as well as observation.

Cetaceans and pinnipeds are illegal to disturb in Alaska by any commercial fishing activities. (I've never even heard of one being caught in a salmon seine. Anecdotal, but nonetheless...) A porpoise or whale in a salmon seine set would be a direct violation of several laws, and not something someone could easily get away with, or even do if they illegally chose to.. Healthy Cetaceans are far too intelligent and acutely aware of their environment to become trapped in the set, and the actual mesh (1" diagonal measurement, smooth, soft, thick cordage) is designed Not to ensnare anything, including salmon or other fish. Pinnipeds also are generally much too intelligent to be trapped by chance. They enter and leave a set at will over the corkline, benefiting from the massing and captivity of the salmon and herring. Salmon seining is a process where the fisher can see what's in the net before she closes the set enough to endanger any non targeted species inside.

In addition, Alaskan salmon seiners typically work the very top of a deep water column. A quick reference to Alaska Statute shows salmon purse seiners in Alaska are usually limited to 325 mesh squares plus a small amount of chafing gear - roughly 30' or so between the cork and lead line on a working seine. Alaskan seiners do not want their nets to touch the bottom, nor is their gear designed for this, as a chafe usually results in a foul in the rocky waters where wild salmon are typically seined. The whole process of pursing must also be done slowly enough to "sneak up" on the fish, yet quickly enough that they don't figure out that they can dive to escape the set. The process of salmon seining is much more a "herding" exercise, that depends on the species specific response of the salmon targeted, than can probably be garnered from casual observation. The water's deep and clear.

On a personal note, I would leave the Alaska salmon purse seine fishery if I knew (or even felt) it was endangering or ecologically problematic to ANY animal or plant species. I also feel quite confident that a number of my seining colleges would agree with me in principle, if not in word and deed. Alaskan wild salmon and herring purse seining are sustainable, clean fisheries. Aleut 06:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I've participated in thousands of sets, in both Alaska salmon and herring fisheries. In all that time, we've *never* caught a mammal of any kind. I remember hearing once of someone who caught a dolphin in their net, that had drowned when it got tangled up. That's one death in one story, and I've heard *many* fishing stories over the decades.

 * Herring fishing doesn't get much bycatch at all. Salmon seining sometimes does get quite a bit of bycatch, depending on the circumstances. The fishermen avoid it when possible, as it slows the process down a lot. By far the most common animals accidentally caught are jellyfish (nobody cares, truly) and flounder (if we're in really shallow sandy bays). We also sometimes get a few sole, bullhead (I don't know the real name; it's these things: http://www.nuffieldcurriculumcentre.org/imageLibrary/jpeg250/201249.jpg), halibut, cod, trout, ray, starfish, urchins, and a few others. Often the crew will eat the bycatch for dinner that night, if it's something tasty. For example, we love it when we accidentally scare up a halibut. Once we got into a bunch of dogfish (sharks), which was really unusual. Sometimes a swimming bird will get unlucky; oh my gosh, that's really a huge mess when that happens. I've seen seals and otters hanging around a set once or twice, but they just go over the corkline whenever they feel like it.

 * I'm pretty sure most fishermen participate because they love to be out on the ocean with all the cool marine wildlife; we're generally not the types of people that wantonly kill higher-order animals. Once you've interacted with a herring for even just a little while, you come to realize that while they are alive, and their life is important, they're not really... well... I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't feel bad digging up a carrot to put in my salad, either. :) Wadsworth (talk) 05:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Danish seines
As far as I'm aware it does not "hangs vertically" Moggiethemeow (talk) 21:33, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree. In fact, a Danish seine isn't really a seine at all! I'm going to make a proposal about this. Xurtio (talk) 11:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Remove Danish seines
I vote that danish seines be removed, since they're not really seines. They're more like drag gear than seining gear. Xurtio (talk) 11:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

please see the trawling wiki article. I believe Danish seines should go there. Compare the net shape and fishing technique, virtually identical Xurtio (talk) 20:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree with you Xurtio, that Danish seining seems closer to trawling than purse seining, and I have wondered about that myself. However, traditionally it has been referred to as "seining". More particularly, the FAO categorises it as "seining". In the absence of other global authoritative sources, the FAO is usually taken as the definitive reference source in articles on fishing. So I'm inclined to think Danish seining should stay where it is. But perhaps there could be, in the article, some mention of its similarity to trawling, and perhaps we could find some sources which clarify why it came to called "seining". --Epipelagic (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Speculation: it's the result of an old translation error from Danish to English that stuck through to the 21st century. Or it can also be a matter of confused laymen.

 * Reference: You can also see here: http://old.fisheries.is/ships/gear.htm that real seining is used to catch pelagics (salmon, hering, etc), while danish seining, like bottom trawling, is for bottom fish.

 * Agree: need to find a good source. My main experience is in Salmon Seining. Don't let me near the bottom trawling pages because I'm bias as hell about that: we call them Ocean Rapers. Xurtio (talk) 22:47, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

How many crew for drum and power-block seining?
There was a little comparison tidbit in there that claimed that power-block seining required seven crew at the minimum, and the drum seining reduced that number by two. The author of that paragraph no-doubt is thinking of the giant sardine fishery in Chile, or something like that. In Alaska salmon and herring seining, for example, four or five is normal. Anyway, I took that number out, as I don't really know the roles of crewmembers in drum operations. I added a paragraph with these roles for the power block operations. Can someone put in a similar role-definition paragraph for the drum section? Wadsworth (talk) 04:52, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

 * the gear is all the same whether you're doing drum sets or purse sets, and it's generally always four people: The skipper runs the hides and drives the boat, the skiffman tows the other end of the net, the corkman stacks the corks and the leadman stacks the leads. Sometimes younger family mambers will serve as a fifth and stack the "web" between the corks and the leads.  I've three-manned it before, but it's a pain in the ass Xurtio (talk) 11:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

 * By the way, you can do drum sets with a power block.... Xurtio (talk) 20:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

line not rope
My skipper always threatened to throw me overboard for calling line "rope". There is no "rope" on a boat. Everything is a line. The purse isn't rings with a "rope" through it. It's a ring with the purse line going through it. The seiner net has a whole anatomy: the breast line, the cork line, the lead line, the tow line, the purse line, etc. I will expand this article from my personal experience, eventually. Xurtio (talk) 11:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That will be great. However, remember also that the article is presenting a global view of seining, and not just how it is practised and spoken about in, say, Alaska. The FAO refers to "rope" sometimes in the context of seining. Although "line" is most often used, googling seining+rope still gets 245,000 hits. The problem with personal experiences is that, unless they can be backed with reliable sources, they have little value on Wikipedia. --Epipelagic (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Good points. This is why I'm not jumping in an editing.  I would consider myself an expert at Alaskan Commercial Salmon Seining as that's the lifestyle I was raised into before diverging to academics.  I have some experience in hering (seine), king crab (potts), and cod (longline).  I don't think we should depend on Google hits though.  Anyway, "rope" or "line" in terms of Wikipedia policy isn't going to make a difference.  It might be better if I did a particular section within the article pertaining more specifically to Alaska. Xurtio (talk) 23:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

History
The folklore I had heard about line vs. rope is that originally, rope was called the stock of line. Once you take a section of rope from the role and cut it and utilize it in your gear, it's now a line (because it has a specific purpose). It's not specific to Alaska or even commercial fishing:

http://www.boatlore.com/Rope.html (notice this is not about alaska seining)

http://www.denverrope.com/definitions.htm (definitions: notice that the official names have 'line' in them)

I think this is consistent with the folklore history I heard, but as always, needs confirmation from reliable sources.

Xurtio (talk) 23:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Well that's good. The article needs expansion and proper sourcing. Perhaps we can do this together. I'm pushed for time at the moment, but I'll see what I can do. --Epipelagic (talk) 00:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

 * sounds good, the fall semester will be starting up soon here so my activity will probably drop significantly at that time, but we'll make constructive progress eventually Xurtio (talk) 00:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Given your interest in neuroscience, you might also be interested in contributing to pain in fish. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Seine v. seine net
In a lot of places a seine is referred to as a seine net. Surely the term seine implies that it is a net, and the word "net" is superfluous? Just wanted to bring it up rather than go through the article changing it, in case I am wrong. Huw Powell (talk) 01:56, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Either is acceptable. "Seine" by itself can refer more to the technique. But if the context is clear, then "seine" can equally refer to the net. The FAO article on the nets is titled "Seine nets", not "Seines". And that is about definitive as you can get in fishing. But in the body of their article they sometimes refer to the nets simply as "seines". --Epipelagic (talk) 02:24, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

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Methods of fishing and where they are done in Kenya
Please bring what I sayed 41.212.9.30 (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Seine fishing


text:
Talk:Negative proof

In Appropriate occasions
The statement
 * The law in most democracies also allows negative proofs in criminal cases; namely, a defence lawyer may argue:
 * X is innocent because there is no (or insufficient) proof that X is guilty

This statement assumes that Law, democracies, lawyers, a jury and the judiciary process are, or want to be, logical, and there are countless occasions which they are not logical. Also, a defense lawyer argues that someone is not guilty, which may be better to say in this context.
 * The problem is that they don't claim the opposite is true, the verdict in law is generally 'guilty' or 'not guilty' and rarely described as 'innocent'.  Not guilty just means a threshold of proof wasn't reached to affirm guilt.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.5.105.174 (talk) 09:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Reasons for edits today:
1. The entry (as I found it tonight) falsely claimed that a quote which is popular with researchers -- the quote, “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” -- concurs with the "negative proof fallacy" which is detailed on this Wikipedia page, and that this quote, therefore, is also fallacious, according to this past contributor.

Examples herein will be used to prove that history/reality, itself, proves the above saying to be truthful and that the OPPOSITE has been proven fallacious: i.e., someone might not have understood this short-but-tongue-twisting saying, which I will parse below to make sure anyone reading this understands it. The actual fallacy is “Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence” -- which is not only the exact opposite of the saying popular with researchers, but which also tells us that “absence of evidence” is all that’s necessary to prove something non-existent (non-existent="absent") -- not exactly a good model for thorough scientific or logical inquiry, nor consistent with the statement which also is on this page and IS a valid rule of logic: "The reasonable course is to require proof of any statement [not merely a disproof of a contrary statement]".]. Someone modifying this page, not surprisingly, then tried to use “absence of his own evidence” to make fallacious religious/POV statements. Before I cite the POV statements and why they're fallacious...

Here’s an example (logical exercise) which shows WHY it is true ("True" being one antonym of "fallacious") to say, “Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence,” but it is fallacious to say the opposite:

 * a. We know today -- thanks to people like a Mr. Franklin, Mr. Tesla, etc. -- that electricity exists (NOTE: “Existence” is an antonym of absence.); and given accounts of lightning causing fires in the years circa 1600, we can reasonably say that electricity also existed in the year 1600 (and that one form of electricity was lightning). No one alive in the year 1600 had proven (i.e., there was an absence of evidence in 1600) much at all regarding electricity, but this absence of evidence from the POV of people in the 1600's does not prove that people in the 1600's would be CORRECT to think that electricity did not exist in the year 1600 (i.e., the aforementioned absence of evidence did NOT produce evidence of absence, or evidence of electricity’s absence from the world or reality).  They would be buying a lie -- that electricity doesn't exist or lighning isn't composed of electricity -- due to an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy if they believed in 1600 that, "Someone just suggested to me that electricity might exist, but it's not proven yet, so it CAN'T exist; they can't even say it "could" exist and be correct!"  i.e. It does NOT follow that “an absence of evidence” produces or exhibits (or “is,” to quote the saying ver batim) “evidence of absence”; thus the correct sentence is: “An absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence”. This is the tongue-twisting saying in a nutshell.
 * b. Someone postulating, “Electricity MIGHT exist” in the year 1600 wouldn't even be trying to make a logically provable or disprovable statement:
 * Anything "might" exist, but logic (even probabilistic or Bayesian logic) was never intended to address whether “mights” and “maybes” are ‘true’ OR ‘not true’ with 100% certainty -- yet someone's example on this page did try to prove a statement expressed as "could" or "maybe" or with similar words to be logically-fallacious. A claim (i.e. statement) which my opponent qualifies with a “could” (as this page's example used to contain "could" in an alleged example of a "negative-proof fallacy") or a "maybe" is not a claim that can be proven NOR disproven with certainty by Logic, but a "claim" merely of skepticism, i.e. a non-claim, a shrug of the shoulders that his opponent might be correct, but he has not yet seen enough evidence to decide.

To show why the fallacious statement, “absence of evidence IS evidence of absence” is similar to the fallacy which is covered in this Wiki entry, we should compare the two quotes: We can re-state “absence of evidence IS evidence of absence” as substantially the same way as expressing, “This DOES NOT exist (i.e. There IS evidence to prove its absence from reality) because there is no proof that it DOES exist (i.e. because there is absence of evidence showing its existence),”

and,

“This DOES exist because there is no proof that it DOES NOT exist” was the fallacy which I used in the article.

In both quotes above, the one making the claim -- a negative claim (as in trying to "prove the negative") in the first quote, and an affirmative claim in the second quote -- has not proven his claim because there is “no proof” (see the bold text) presented to support EITHER claim above, only disproving of the opponent's claim.

2. Getting back to "the skeptic," I would agree that HE has no burden to "prove the negative" (since he's not even expressing a definitive BELIEF in "the negative," thus he has no interest in proving it; he's taking no stance that this entity must exist [the affirmative] nor that it can't exist [the negative]). But a person who makes his own, definitive claim -- ''e.g., someone living in 1700 who said, “Electricity?! I’m not merely skeptical of that, I say with 100% certainty that it's IMPOSSIBLE that it exists”'' -- is no longer merely “the skeptic”: He's taking a stance: "the negative" stance, or stance that "It doesn't exist" (and in my last quote, he'd be making an Appeal to Ignorance, for reasons that my revisions to the article explain); coupling this "negative" stance to -- as the article said, before I revised some parts -- “The reasonable course is to require proof of any statement,” he now needs to prove his claim...as I think everyone who's contributed to this page in the past would agree, since they all left it in the article...

Trouble is (for him), that he has just claimed a position, claimed that position to be 100% positively true. And it *might* be true, but he CAN'T PROVE his position to be true (because, like any mere mortal, he cannot "prove the negative" despite taking that negative position). If you can't prove your claim to be true, why claim it at all? Why would any *rational* (logical) person claim that something *must* be untrue (or true), when they cannot *rationally* prove it to themselves or others?? Thus, someone making a counter-claim (a speculative statement of an entity’s NON-existence), cannot be expected to prove it since it is "the negative" (again, that much I agree on), but he is not correct-by-default (which someone claimed on this page, which contradicts the quote in the last paragraph). This is consistent with the above quote that everyone left on this page; or to combine that quote with the quote in P2, below, after which I'll deduce the simple conclusion ("C") to these 2 premises):

P1: “The reasonable course is to require proof of any statement”.

P2: No one can “provide proof of a NEGATIVE statement”. (NOTE that this "proof" is "require[d]" by P1, but "No one can 'prove the negative' ").

C: “The reasonable course” is that no logical person should ever make a negative conclusion (i.e. negative "statement," or claim of non-existence) since they cannot give the "require[d] proof" that it does not exist. (There are a few exceptions to this rule, discussed herein, but none seem to apply to the statement posted on this Wiki page, i.e. the statement that one can't even assert "[X, Y, Z, or other supernatural widgets] COULD exist..." because that would be a "fallacy".)

Yet, this contributor HAS stated that a negative conclusion (non-existence of God(s) ) is CERTAINLY true: e.g. by saying others are wrong/fallacious to even say “God MIGHT exist”. This is an argument from ignorance fallacy from himself (not from those he detracts), with -- to quote the Argument_from_Ignorance page -- his "...assertion that if something [here, God or other supernatural things is the "something"] is currently inexplicable to some people, then it...could not... happen, or that if evidence of something has not been scientifically proven to their satisfaction, then it CANNOT exist". [emphasis added, since he dismissd even statements that x "could" exist as "fallacious"] This is uncertainty (as proven in the syllogism above, that one cannot "prove a negative" such as "God definitely doesn't exist") "masquerading as a certainty".

However, I would probbly agree with him, that to not qualify a supernatural existence as “possibly” or “maybe” true, to call it “reasonably” or “probably” true, instead, despite no evidence of that, *is* fallacious, and this is the problem with presenting Creationism or I.Design as a “theory”: It is a mere hypothesis which MIGHT be true, but for which there is no evidence; only someone’s supposition/personal opinion that, “We're too complex to have come into existed any other way than being created”; in this, they have done what some people's militant-Atheism does: ASSume (You know the saying: “It makes an ASS out of you...”) that if you disprove one contrary/competing belief, that your own belief must be true despite a dearth of actual AFFIRMATIVE EVIDENCE supporting your belief.

Even if Franklin et al (returning to that example, but with a new twist), had NOT done any experiments and not proven electricity’s existence (just as there’s no airtight proof of anything supernatural), then we could still postulate, and say -- just as Franklin said postulatively (and CORRECTLY, not “fallaciously”), BEFORE he had flown his kite and gotten some proof by doing so -- that lightning “MIGHT” be electricity, and this statement would not be fallacious ...so long as a word expressing uncertainty, such as “might” or “could” was used to qualify the statement, and so long as someone disagreeing with that statement has not proven another conclusion, which is mutually-exclusive with that postulate, to be true. ...An e.g. to prove this claim is: “Electricity MIGHT exist,” says someone in the year 1600;

and his friend replies: “No, you are certainly wrong; I don’t even accept that you 'could' be correct because there is no proof that it DOES exist (despite that the first guy said it MIGHT exist, not that it DOES exist, and therefore has no burden-of-proof to show that it *does* exist: and therefore we have a Straw Man Fallacy already). I don’t need to PROVE myself right because your failure to PROVE me wrong makes me right (Appeal to Ignorance). And I also don't NEED to prove it because I CANNOT prove it (cannot 'prove the negative'); i.e. I'm allowed to make a statement I can't prove, without proving that statement to be true, because I can't prove it (fallacy: Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc/circular).”

...Given what we now understand about the history of electricity, via logical deduction, this latter man’s conclusion is untrue -- untrue is one word synonymous with “fallacious”. The contributor I've noted has said essentially the same thing and used the same fallacious reasoning as the second man in the above example.

So, just as electricity "COULD" have existed in the year 1600 AD (i.e. before anyone *proved* its existence scientifically), it is true that a God or ghosts "COULD" exist even if no proof has not (yet) proven it. This is simple logical-consistency, but the contributor claimed that it is fallacious to even say “There MIGHT be ghosts” (according to Occam’s Razor, he claims, but see number 3, below. However, a religious person also cannot argue that “simply because there is no evidence, a supernatural force DOES exist” instead of saying “COULD exist,” which I reflected in the current Wiki article.  There is no reason in logical-empiricism to state the existence OR non-existence of such thing with any certainty.

3. He also tried to use Occam's Razor to prove his POV correct, so...

Firstly, whether Occam’s Razor is even logically proven (e.g. Chatton, Kant, Leibniz all had Anti-Razors) is debatable, and it is a premise which the author relied upon but never proved to be true (fallacy: False [or Unsubstantiated] Premise).

Secondly, even if we take it as a given that the simplest explanation is true (i.e. that Mr. Ockham was correct -- and this is the spelling of his real name, I'm pretty sure), there is subjectivity about what’s the simplest, most believable conclusion when it comes to "the meaning of life," where we came from, the afterlife, etc. For many people a supernatural force IS the ‘simplest’ answer, which is what the Razor encourages; therefore it was merely this contributor's unproven POV that Creator(s) are not the “simplest” explanation, which was his premise he used to "prove" that they don't exist. If there was no such subjectivity, then nearly everyone (all sane people) would agree on which beliefs are the ‘true’ ones regarding God(s), ghosts, and similar subjects. Objective sciences such as Occam’s Razor or logic are hard to apply to something so subjective as proving OR disproving -- as he tried to do with the Razor -- a supernatural existence.

4. The examples used prior to my modifications tonight, which called it a fallacy to say, “It MIGHT be true that...” (i.e., a completely unproven postulate) can turn out to be TRUE (so long as the above exceptions-to-the-rule don’t exist, of course) -- just as we saw with Franklin proving his postulate to be TRUE by flying a kite -- and these unproven postulates are therefore valuable to science and logic, not contradicted by logic, as calling it a “fallacy” of logic would indicate.

But, what is not constructive in determining the truth, nor is it logical, is to ASSume without evidence, one way OR the other -- as both the contributor and religious zealots do, with this contributor using Circular Reasoning to ‘justify’ why it’s ok for him to make presumptions but not for his opposition to do the same (as exhibited 3 paragraphs above).

Minor changes
I have made some minor changes to the article. Please let me know if there is anything to which you take exception, and why. --JorgeP 15:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Form of negative proof: 'Acceptable' instead of 'existing'?
Shouldnt the form be "X is acceptable because there is no proof that X is unacceptable." instead of "X exists because there is no proof that X doesn't exist.", because the general goal of argumentation is to try to convince a reasonable judge that the standpoint is acceptable. If X is the proposition, the example sentence should be about it's acceptability. The argument in question doesn't necessarily have to do with existence. --JurgenBM 19:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 * because the general goal of argumentation is to try to convince a reasonable judge

yes, in law. change this if you would like. Spencerk 20:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
Regarding "Another form of this kind of fallacious argument is, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"". This example doesn't meet the criteria of fallacy even it look like. That affirmation is true due of the tautological internal structure of affirmation. Statment doesn't proof anything but isn't false. Compare with "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence!" = fallacy argument. "Evidence - Absence" pair is very tricky some time, compare with "Absence of coin don't means coin absence" that will be fallacy without doubt. Feel 14:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think you really understand the phrase. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is perfectly grammatical and a completely reasonable way of stating the fallacy. Think of it this way: a burglar breaks into your house. The dog scares the burglar away before he can steal anything. The burglar leaves nothing behind, and no trace that he was ever there; but the fact that he left no evidence does not mean that he was never there. Do you understand? It could also be said as "If there is no evidence that something happened, that does not mean that something did not happen".
 * Also, your rephrasing as "absence of coin don't means [sic] coin absence" is misleading, and also incorrect, because it's missing the second "of" that makes the phrase "evidence of absence" different from "absence of evidence". "Coin absence" is equal to "absence of coin". "Evidence absence" is equal to "absence of evidence". "Evidence of absence" is not equal to "absence of evidence". Thefamouseccles 11:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is the thinking that evidence = proof, if it were, it would correct to say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". However, evidence is simply a part of proof. So in the above case of the burglar, absence of evidence, IS evidence of absence, but not proof.

This needs tidying up
It's a confused article.

There is certainly a logical problem with the kind of argument that runs:

1. This cannot be proven to be false C. This is true

As well as

1. This cannot be proven to be true C. This is false

Both are not logically deductive arguments.

Equally, the statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!" is not logically incorrect, despite being called a fallacy. It is logically possible for something to be existant despite a complete lack of evidence for it being true.

There are of course separate pragmantic arguments as why we should not believe anything that we can't prove. These arguments are, as the article states, scientific, but they are not logical.

The further claim justifying this statement "This is a crucial point of the Scientific method, that before a claim is thought to be true, it must be proven. All claims must be confirmed by observation. If the claim can not be confirmed this way, the belief must not be asserted. Not-knowing is default." is way too biased.

It should at least attribute the view that this is the way beliefs should be formed to someone or some group. It is clear that many people believe that it is acceptable to believe on other grounds, whether faith, or paradigmatic grounds. The idea that all beliefs should be rooted in empirical observation is not the way people live, nor is it wikipedias place to suggest they should (I'm sure a referance to someone or some group that believes they should is fine) - Wight1984

I agree. "This is a crucial point of the Scientific method, that before a claim is thought to be true, it must be proven. All claims must be confirmed by observation. If the claim can not be confirmed this way, the belief must not be asserted. Not-knowing is default." is.../really/ biased, and well beyond wikipedia's mandate. Hewhorulestheworld 09:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' excludes the possibility of the existence of something for which there is complete lack of evidence. On the contrary, that is the definition of what it proves to be included, and what it proves the fallacy to be seeking improperly to exclude. Anarchangel (talk) 03:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Tidying up
I've tried to make this article more coherent and logical by editing and removing some excessive text. I hope those who would like to help completing this article will assure these aspects as well. JurgenBM 13:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Not a Real Law of Logic
1. If "You can't prove a negative" is true then you just proved a negative making it at the same time false.

2. If "You can't prove a negative" is false than there is no problems.

3. A real law of logic, the law of non-contradiction, is something can not be true and false, so the only logical answer would be to say it's false. Q.E.D. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction If you put this in, as maybe arguments against find a better source, it bad when you source wikipedia in wikipedia.

I like to point out to my friends that this is the fallacy that "justified" the Iraq war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.30.119 (talk) 15:34, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure if that is true, I believe the justification for going to war with Iraq was "Iraq has WMD" which is a positive, which has since been virtually proved to be false, I say virtually because the "absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence", although that statement is in itself a negative and this fallacy,"absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence", has been discussed in more detail above.

Assuming infinite knowledge, or all knowledge of a finite subject?
Wouldn't it be possible to prove a negative if all elements of the statement were known? Say, for example, a list of names. 'John' is either on the list or not. So if you say, 'There is no evidence that John is on the list, therefore John is not on the list', that is correct, no? Making the inherent problem one of lack of knowledge, not of impossibility. Or is that example excluded from Negative Proof by some property or rule of it that isn't mentioned? Anarchangel (talk) 03:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Reconsideration of "Applying the Fallacy"
First, let me make my biases clear and preface this by saying that I believe humans have definitely contributed to the increase in global temperatures (global warming) in recent years. That said, I do not find the "Applying the Fallacy" section to be appropriate for this article. Specifically, I feel this section of the article does not adhere to Wikipedia's "neutral point of view" core policy, particularly the "Let the facts speak for themselves", and "substantiating biased statements" sections.

I take no issue with this section until about mid-way through, when burden of proof shifts to Team 2. In particular, the phrase, "all the data tells us that global warming is real," is neither attributed to any credible source nor backed by any data to support it. In fact, the entire section is without any citations or data of any kind; it simply presents global warming as a generally accepted fact, which it is not. In actuality, global warming remains a highly-contested issue. Although you certainly could revise this section to have a more neutral tone, such as by providing sources and data that support the existence global warming, there is too much dispute and uncertainty about global warming to make it an acceptable example for this article. --Frito31382 (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Redirect to Argument from ignorance.
I've acted boldly and redirected to Argument from Ignorance. I have never seen any mention of Negative Proof in philosophical logic or critical thinking texts and nothing in the article serves to distinguish this fallacy from Argument from Ignorance. Thus, readers are better served with a redirect. Phiwum (talk) 13:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Some time ago, Anarchangel reverted my redirect with the following comment:

 * Argument from ignorance finds proof in lack of proof; negative proof finds proof in lack of evidence. One is concerned with process, the other with situation. See talk.

I find this explanation utterly spurious. As a logician and teacher of courses in critical thinking, I have never seen a distinction between lack of proof and lack of evidence and I have never seen argument from ignorance presented in such a way that the latter condition is excluded. Furthermore, I have never seen the term negative proof in any text on critical thinking, logic or rhetoric.

Note as well that the references themselves lack a single citation of a logician, rhetorician or other credible individual discussing "negative proofs". The sole citation (safalra.com) that uses the term fails RS.

Finally, we note that the text itself refutes Anarchangel's claimed distinction. The article clearly states, "It is asserted that a proposition is true, only because it has not been proven false." Hence, we find no clear difference between negative proof and argument from ignorance and we have no evidence the former term has any widespread usage.

Consequently, I have restored the redirect. Phiwum (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Negative proof


text:
Thur (France)

The Thur is a river in the Haut-Rhin department, Alsace, France, left tributary of the river Ill. It rises in the Vosges Mountains, and flows through the towns Thann and Cernay. It flows into the Ill (a tributary of the Rhine) near Ensisheim, north of Mulhouse. It is 53 km long.

title: Thur (France)


text:
Nerse

Nerse (ನೇರಸೆ), also known as Nersa(ನೇರ್ಸಾ), is a village located in Khanapur Taluk of Belagavi District, Karnataka, India. It is also the headquarters for Nerse Gram Panchayat. The distance from Belagavi is about 40 km and from Bengaluru is 500 km. It is situated under the Western Ghats, on the boundary of Karnataka and Goa.

It is a part of the proposed Bhimgarh Sanctuary and is a heavily forested area. Apart from resident birds, it is also home to many migratory species such as the Ceylon frogmouth and the paradise flycatcher. The forest of Nerse is also home to bats in the Talvedi region and the Krishnapur area of Mahadai Valley. There are more than 40 species of bats in Nerse. Close to Nerse, there is the Dandeli Wildlife Sanctuary which has a herd of elephants.

The Nerase Gram Panchayat has a beautiful village Ashok Nagar, the only Kannada speaking village under this Gram Panchayat.

In summer temperatures are 23-35°C and in winter 13-20°C.

title: Nerse


text:
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Pope pool

 __NOINDEX__
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was:  procedural close, already deleted. Avic ennasis @ 10:15, 5 Tevet 5777 / 10:15, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Pope pool
Useless page, only edited once. Punkmorten 15:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Jarvis Cocker

Jarv Is discography
There's no word of the "Must I evolve" EP on either the Pulp or the Jarvis Cocker discography articles. If a Jarv Is article exists, there's no link to it or the Jarv Is discography article in the discography paragraph here. Banshee OHara (talk) 10:12, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Happy Birthday Linda?!
I've changed Happy Birthday Linda to Happy Birthday Nichola under discography for All Seeing I - because thats the name of the song!

Where did he go to university?
The Pulp page doesn't say either

'I studied sculpture at St. Martin's College, that's where i caught her eye'

s'all true that is. The rest of the song is considerably less true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.64.217.68 (talk) 02:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Jarvis/Joe
I strongly feel that the "Jarvis Cocker is not related to Joe Cocker" comment does not belong in this article. If they were related, then certainly add a Joe Cocker reference. But as they're not, I don't think it should be here. Besides, there's no corresponding reference on the Joe Cocker page.

I've therefore removed the reference twice, but an anonymous user has reinstated it. What are anyone else's views on this one? CLW 15:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You're correct. Perhaps the anon. author would like to attend to all the articles about people called Smith? ;-) Andy Mabbett 16:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Good - glad it's not just me! Done. CLW 16:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Jarvis and Joe are both from Sheffield, and there has been some confusion about whether or not they are related (i.e. I've heard "Is Jarvis' Joe's son?"), and their lack of a relationship has been mentioned in other media (I remember a Rolling Stone [or similar music magazine] on Joe that had the Jarvis questioned raised), plus both being musicians (albeit with differing musical styles, to be sure) and having a relatively uncommon name. I don't feel it's that big a deal, but if it's very upsetting to everyone that this point is there, I won't do anything about it. Wikipedia is a place for pertinent biographical information (I feel this point is) to be edited by ALL, not just by some folks who feel that it fit their own personal strictures. If there were two gentlemen named Smith who came from a town in England who were both in the music business and has claims to generational influence, I would certainly add a reference.
 * I fail to see why this is such a big deal.The Invisible Man 19:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Knowing the both Joe and Jarvis Cocker were from Sheffield, I did a google search to find out if they were related. I found this page, when it would seem more appropriate to find it in the proper entry. Just my tuppence worth.

Joe Cocker used to babysit Jarvis so there is a link. So there.

 * I agree - 'Cocker' is not the most common surname around and as both Joe and Jarvis are singers from Sheffield, it would be worth mentioning the fact for the benefit of people who've heard of both and might be wondering, particularly after they've read about the babysitting. Martan 08:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Joe Cocker said on Jools Holland's show five minutes ago that he never used to babysit for Jarvis, and has never met him. "So there".

 * There is a popular misconception that Joe and Jarvis Cocker are related, especially here in Sydney where Mack Cocker let the myth spread: astute Googling will confirm this. One of the most valuable services of Wikipedia is to counter myths and mistakes, I find the comment above that it's "out of place" to state they are not related to be bizarre. It's in now, but not isolated, it's in the context of abandonment by his father, which is an influence on his life and songwriting as the references show. Rexparry sydney 01:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Teddy Bandits?
What's the paragraph at the bottom of the page about Cocker's occult interests and ties to a group called 'Teddy Bandits'? I'm a long-time Pulp fan and never heard anything of the sort, nor can I find anything online about 'Teddy Bandits'.

Is this something genuine, or someone's idea of an injoke?

UPDATE - I deleted the paragraph, as the user of the IP logged as writing this paragraph has vandalised a couple of other Britpop entries, so I'm presuming it's a load of rubbish as I originally thought.

2 children
I was on holidays in Paris (July 2006)and saw him in a Park, he seem to have 2 sons. One would be 10-12, the other 4-6. I didn't edit the article as I have no confimation that these are actually his kids, though they look very much so.

 * His wife already has a kid from a previous relationship (see ), so that was probably the older child you saw. 217.34.39.123 16:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

All Seeing I
There should probably be a mention for All Seeing I but as the page has been divided into Pulp and Post Pulp and All Seeing I was 1998 during Pulp's album's it doesn't really fit.

 * Was that before or after This Is Hardcore came out? It should maybe be squeezed into the Pulp section as it happened during that era. The "Ciao" collaboration with Lush arguably deserves a brief mention too. 217.34.39.123 16:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

no more squeezing - side projects is born. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.64.217.68 (talk) 03:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Running The World
Is the freebie download track (and album bonus song) "Running The World" really classed as a "single", in the sense of being eligible for the UK Top 40 or whatever? 217.34.39.123 16:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Image on the page
The image of the subject falls foul of the fair use policy; specifically item 1. The current image is used to identify the subject, and it is possible to have a free use image take its place. There currently is an image, Image:Jarviscockerpulp.jpg that could be used although it is a low quality picture. Someone may wish to locate a better free image. If no chagne has been made in a couple of days, I will replace the image myself. Just wanted to give those with more knowledge of the subject a chance to make the change, or find another image, themselves.--Gay Cdn (talk) (Contr.) 00:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

He is playing the Coachella Music festival this year
... I think it would be relevant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jdl dallas (talk • contribs) 20:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Joe Cocker
Is he any relation to Joe Cocker?
 * No. See first comments. Rexparry sydney 01:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Interview
He was interviewed by Terry Gross during NPR's Fresh Air on 6/25/2007. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11354709 --24.175.203.124 14:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Navbox
I started to design a Jarvis navbox, because his article was a forest of wikilinks. If there are any suggestions, let me know. Link: User:Steveprutz/Sandbox2. StevePrutz (talk) 21:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Now it's up at Template:JarvisCocker. StevePrutz (talk) 10:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Art on TV
Jarvis presented a series on art done by ordinary people on TV. I can't find a reference to it 217.205.224.155 (talk) 10:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"He never learned to speak French"
"but he never learned to speak French, according to Bidault-Waddington."

I'm french and I met Jarvis Cocker in Paris, may 2009. We talked a bit and my english isn't so good, so we did it in french. His accent was less than perfect, but his sentences were quite correct. And he understood most of what I said. I'm not sure it's quite true to pretend that "he never learned to speak french", but of course I'm just a random source (the other one being his ex-wife...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.250.32.166 (talk) 18:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Room 29?
Hey folks, page Room_29 redirects here, but this page says nothing about Room 29 See: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4797010 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.157.245 (talk) 01:37, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Butler?
Did Jarvis Cocker really work as a butler ad it says in the article? Fnygren (talk) 08:22, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Personal life
Per recent revert by Drmies. I appreciate the strict criterion for BLP articles. But how does a relationship constitute "celeb trivia"? It's not as if I was citing a rumor published in a tabloid, or violating the subject's privacy. This has been openly mentioned in a variety of articles and interviews from major, reliable publications. I have yet to see any wiki guidelines which characterize this information as "celeb trivia" that should be omitted. Οἶδα (talk) 02:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:24, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Jarvis Cocker - This Cultural Life - 14 May 2022.flac

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Jarvis Cocker - This Cultural Life - 14 May 2022.flac

title: Talk:Jarvis Cocker


text:
Talk:Forsinard

Reserve
The reserve consists mainly of Flow Country peat bog? Laurel Bush 15:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC).

title: Talk:Forsinard


text:
File:Apocalypse Element.jpg

Summary
Big Finish Doctor Who 11 - The Apocalypse Element cover

Fair use in The Apocalypse Element
Though this image is subject to copyright, its use is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:
 * 1) It's a low resolution copy of a CD/album cover.
 * 2) It doesn't limit the copyright owner's rights to sell the CD/album in any way, in fact, it may encourage sales.
 * 3) Because of the low resolution, copies could not be used to make illegal copies of the album artwork on another CD.
 * 4) The image is itself a subject of discussion in the article or used in the infobox thereof.
 * 5) The image on the cover is significant because it was made by a famous artist.

Source

 * 1) Derived from a digital capture (scan/photo) of the album/CD cover (creator of this digital version is irrelevant as the copyright in all equivalent images is still held by the same party). Copyright held by the record company or the artist. Claimed as fair use regardless.

title: File:Apocalypse Element.jpg


text:
Joseph-François-Louis-Charles de Damas

Duke Joseph François Louis Charles de Damas (28 October 1758 – 5 March 1829 in Paris) was a French general.

As a colonel, he was aide-de-camp to the commander in chief of the French Expeditionary Force in the American Revolution from 1780 to 1781. After his return, he was given the command over a dragoon regiment.

In June 1791, he was entrusted to cover the escape of King Louis XVI, but left his regiment and joined the king in Varennes, where he was arrested. Sentenced to death in Paris, he was pardoned and followed the Comte d'Artois to Italy, was named maréchal de camp in 1795 and was en route to join the Quiberon expedition, when he was shipwrecked in Calais and was captured by the Republicans.

Under the Consulate, he was again pardoned, accompanied Artois as general adjudant to Ile-Dieu, served from 1797 to 1801 in the Prince de Condé's émigré army. After the Bourbon Restoration, he was made a Peer of France and the general lieutenant and captain of the Chevaulegers. He followed Louis XVIII in 1815 to Belgium, became captain of the 18th division at Dijon, and received a dukedom in 1825.

In the Mémoires relatifs à la révolution (20th Vol., Par. 1823), he wrote a report on the events at Varennes.

title: Joseph-François-Louis-Charles de Damas


text:
User talk:Kiaparowits

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Also, for this mailing list post I give you this:
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

-- grm_wnr Esc  15:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Battle of Seattle
Please see my suggestion at Talk:Battle of Seattle. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Inland Empire (Pacific Northwest)
Hey there, I put together the list of counties basically by including those counties known to be part of regions known to be part of the IE--for example, Eastern Washington is part of the IE, so I added all counties recognized as being in Eastern Washington. Same for northern Idaho, etc. Hope that helps. --Lukobe 22:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

IP Blocking discussion & Beef Irradiation Solution

 * bursts out laughing* thanks for the humor Courtland 00:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you
Thanks for appreciating my work. Vandal-whacking is by no means an easy task. It takes patience and dedication in the work. I hope you evolve to become a good member of the Wikipedia community. You can help by appreciating the community further by joining Esperanza, where you can meet helpful users. Regards, -- Andy123  (talk) 17:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Votes
Hello! I noticed that you are a member of WikiProject Plants. Therefore you may be interested in supporting the nomination of Cactus to the Article Improvement Drive. There are woefully few plant articles among the featured articles. Furthermore, Cactus definitely deserves a better article. this is our chance! If you agree, you can suppost the nomination at the AID page. --Chino 04:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of KRCD (company)

The article KRCD (company) has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * non-notable company, references are all press releases

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Dravecky (talk) 11:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Science lovers wanted!
{|style="background:#ccc; border:1px solid #6881b9; margin:0.5em; padding:0.5em;border-radius: 8px;" !colspan=2 style="font-size:150%;"|Science lovers wanted!
 * Smithsonian logo color.svg
 * Hi! I'm serving as the wikipedian-in-residence at the Smithsonian Institution Archives until June! One of my goals as resident, is to work with Wikipedians and staff to improve content on Wikipedia about people who have collections held in the Archives - most of these are scientists who held roles within the Smithsonian and/or federal government. I thought you might like to participate since you are interested in the sciences! Sign up to participate here and dive into articles needing expansion and creation on our to-do list. Feel free to make a request for images or materials at the request page, and of course, if you share your successes at the outcomes page you will receive the SIA barnstar! Thanks for your interest, and I look forward to your participation! Sarah (talk) 00:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)|}
 * Hi! I'm serving as the wikipedian-in-residence at the Smithsonian Institution Archives until June! One of my goals as resident, is to work with Wikipedians and staff to improve content on Wikipedia about people who have collections held in the Archives - most of these are scientists who held roles within the Smithsonian and/or federal government. I thought you might like to participate since you are interested in the sciences! Sign up to participate here and dive into articles needing expansion and creation on our to-do list. Feel free to make a request for images or materials at the request page, and of course, if you share your successes at the outcomes page you will receive the SIA barnstar! Thanks for your interest, and I look forward to your participation! Sarah (talk) 00:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)|}

Nomination of KRCD (company) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article KRCD (company) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/KRCD (company) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Mccapra (talk) 22:11, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kiaparowits


text:
The 9th Company

The 9th Company (9 рота) is a 2005 Russian war film directed by Fedor Bondarchuk and set during the Soviet–Afghan War. The film is loosely based on a real-life battle that took place at Hill 3234 in early 1988, during Operation Magistral, the last large-scale Soviet military operation in Afghanistan. It received generally positive reviews from critics.

The film was selected as the Russian entry for the Best Foreign Language Film at the 79th Academy Awards, but it was not nominated.

Plot
At a farewell ceremony in Krasnoyarsk, a band of young Soviet Army recruits is preparing to leave for military duty. One of the conscripts, Lyutyi, forms a group with Chugun, Gioconda, Ryaba, Stas, Seryi, and Vorobey. They have different interests and personalities that initially make it difficult for them to form bonds with each other.

On arrival at their bootcamp in the Fergana Valley of Uzbekistan, they meet, Pinochet, a Chechen recruit from Grozny, and their drill instructor, Senior Praporschik Dygalo, a seasoned, traumatized veteran of several tours in Afghanistan and a brutal trainer who treats the recruits harshly. During their training, the recruits overcome their differences and build bonds. Between the training sessions, they receive lessons in operating plastic explosives and a presentation on the ethnic groups and customs of Afghanistan. During an orientation, a Soviet General asks if anyone in the VDV has changed their minds as they are about to be reassigned to another unit. Vorobey and Seryi initially intend to quit but decide to stay in the unit.

Later, Dygalo wakes up the recruits and beats everyone in a frantic manner. The recruits then leave for Afghanistan on a plane.

On their arrival at Bagram air base, they are greeted by a group of VDV troops who have fulfilled their military service and are due to return home. One of the departing soldiers gives one of the new arrivals, Lyutyi, a talisman that he claims has kept him safe through several tours. After departing, the transport plane is hit by a rocket, giving the new recruits their first taste of war. The soldiers are assigned to the 9th company. Pinochet and Ryaba are reassigned to another unit, separating them from Lyutyi and their friends.

They meet Warrant Officer Pogrebnyak "Khokhol", who is Dygalo's second-in-command, Sergeant Afanasiev "Afanasiy", and Sergeant Kurbanhaliev "Kurbashi" and learn that they all had served with Dygalo before he was sent away to a hospital. Pomidor gives Chugun the machine gun that Private Samylin used during his duty in Afghanistan. Khokhol tells about Dygalo's life and habits in the company during his tours of duty in Afghanistan. The company leaves the headquarters to deliver supplies to an outpost of Soviet troops which would be the new component of the 9th company. Upon delivering the needed supplies, Patefon invites the company to a shooting exercise. They come across a group of mujahideen led by Akhmed, who exchanges insults with Patefon before engaging in a short skirmish. The next day, Vorobey shoots and kills Akhmed after being frightened when he slips on a rock.

The company is deployed to the front as a part of Operation Magistral and receive the order to hold a nameless hill at all costs. They fortify the hill and turn it into a base. That night they are attacked by a group of mujahideen. Only Ryaba survives the attack and is left speechless and crippled. Stas falls asleep during guard duty and is beaten by Khokhol, Afanasiy and Kurbashi. The next day, Gioconda is instructed to find matches. He is eventually given matches by a kid living in a village in return for food. As he leaves the village, he encounters members of the company led by Captain Bystrov (Aleksei Kravchenko), who were ready to storm the village.

A couple days later, a convoy arrives to the base, but is ambushed by the mujahideen, resulting in many casualties and several vehicles destroyed. During the shootout, an injured Ryaba suffers a mental breakdown and is shot in the head as he yells for the fighting to stop. Captain Bystrov is also killed. Meanwhile, Khokhol, Lyutyi, and Vorobey attack the underground positions of the mujahideen, but are forced to return upon learning that their enemies are already in the village. The company attempts to clear out the village, which appears to be empty. Stas sees a young boy and decides to spare him, but as soon as he turns around he is shot in the back by the boy and dies shortly thereafter. The company is forced to leave as the village is shelled by BM-21 Grad rocket launchers, while the company lament the death of Stas.

Later, Afanasiy leads some men of the company to steal food cans from a passing army convoy. The company celebrates New Year's Eve while listening to Mikhail Gorbachev's speech on the radio. Pinochet arrives in the company's base to reunite with his friends: he got into trouble with his unit and was reassigned to the 9th company.

The next morning, while the entire company is asleep, Gioconda leaves the base to draw the landscape; a large group of Mujahideen arrives and he is shot in the head while trying to warn the others of the upcoming assault. Reacting to the surprise attack, the 9th Company fires back but are shelled by mortars. As he tries to ask for reinforcements by radio, Patefon is killed by a mortar shell resulting in disruptions in the communication network. The company is able to return to the trenches and engage the mujahideen, Khokhol orders some of the men to shell the enemy positions with mortars but Khokhol's position is hit by a rocket that kills two of his men, preventing further shelling of enemy lines. Soon, the mujahideen break the line and hand-to-hand combat ensues. Another round of shelling begins and a rocket kills Khokhol while Kurbashi is killed by a bullet. Vorobey is hit on his knees while fighting and is unable to make his way to the lines of his comrades, Chugun uses his machine gun to attack the mujahideen in the hopes of covering him but is killed shortly afterwards. Injured and being approached by mujahideen fighters, Vorobey detonates a grenade on himself. The company charges the approaching mujahideen lines and are able to push the fighters back.

Stranded with low ammunition and no means of communications, the company takes stock of the situation: only seven of them survived, all officers are dead, and they're running low on ammunition. Lyutyi, along with Afanasiy, leads the last men of the company in defense of the hill. They fight the last fighters till the last man when Mil Mi-24 helicopter gunships arrive and kill the remaining Afghan fighters. During the fight, Afanasiy is shot in the chest while the last of the company are killed.

Lyutyi is the only one from the company who remains alive. Speechless and crippled, he tells the Colonel that the convoy now may pass as the 9th company has fulfilled their mission. The colonel says that there will be no convoy as the Soviets are already withdrawing from Afghanistan and wonders why they have not heard the orders on the radio. Upon realizing what happened to the 9th Company, the colonel comforts him. Lyutyi passes through the dead bodies of the entire company and removes the talisman from his neck as he kneels to the ground and cries.

Later, on February 15, 1989, a column of BTR-70 is seen leaving Afghanistan. Lyutyi is on one of the vehicles along with other soldiers. He narrates that two years later the country they have been fighting for, the Soviet Union, had ceased to exist and that wearing its medals had become unfashionable. He also speaks of the fate of Senior Praporschik Dygalo, who after being reassigned to Tula to train recruits, will die a year later. He also says that years later the veterans like him in the conflict will be scattered by their new lives. He concludes by saying that the 9th Company won its own war.

Release
The film was released in September 2005. Although first released in 2005, and broadcast on TV in several nations, it was not released in the US until 2010 on DVD.

Box office
The 9th Company was successful in the Russian box office, generating $7.7 million in its first five days of release alone, a new domestic record.

Critical response
Based on 16 reviews collected by Rotten Tomatoes, The 9th Company has an overall approval rating from critics of 69%, with an average score of 5.93/10.

The film received a mixed reaction from the veterans of that war, who pointed to a number of inaccuracies, but nevertheless, judging by ticket sales, it was embraced by the general public and even by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Awards and nominations
In 2006, Russia selected the film as its candidate for the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film nomination. It was also given the Golden Eagle Award for Best Feature Film by the Russian Academy of Cinema Arts.

title: The 9th Company


text:
Menno ter Braak

Menno ter Braak (26 January 1902 – 14 May 1940) was a Dutch modernist writer, critic, essayist, and journalist.

Early career
Ter Braak was born in Eibergen and grew up in the town of Tiel where he was an exemplary student. He went on to the University of Amsterdam where he majored in Dutch and History. He was a regular contributor to the student magazine Propria Cures and involved himself in the study of film (then a very young discipline).

Together with Joris Ivens, Menno ter Braak was also a founder of the Filmliga (Movie League), an organisation for the study of animated film. He completed a Ph.D. dissertation on the medieval emperor Otto III and consecutively worked as a teacher in a number of secondary schools, lastly in Rotterdam.

Forum movement
In 1932 ter Braak, together with Eddy du Perron and, started the literary magazine Forum which proved to be one of the most important literary periodicals in the Dutch-speaking world (it expressly involved Flemish intellectuals as well) in the nineteen-thirties. Forum is widely considered a bulwark of cultural elitism, advocating a high cultural level of discourse, a rational form of literary criticism, consequent individualism and a stern disapproval of all intellectual ornamentation. “Vent boven vorm” (loosely translated: ‘personality over form’) was the catchword of the Forum movement, and Multatuli was one of its most important paragons.

Political involvement
In 1933 ter Braak married Ant Faber, daughter of the social-democratic member of parliament and reverend Jan Lambertus Faber. They moved to The Hague, where Ter Braak joined the Dutch liberal daily Het Vaderland (the Fatherland) as a literary affairs editor and was one of the first Dutchmen to understand the looming threat of Nazism. It is in these years that he started het Comité van Waakzaamheid (the Committee for Vigilance). As a public intellectual, he is most famous for his essays, most of which deal with European culture, politics, or a mixture of the two. He is distinctly influenced by Nietzsche and his style is deliberately paradoxical.

Later writing
In his last, and best-known essays he chastises those who would subject themselves to "higher" and "spiritual" values, unmasking the hierarchies behind those values who are working to further their own agenda. Against this subjection to extraneous authorities and false values, ter Braak posits the individualist ideal of the honnête homme, the "Man of Integrity" who will not conform himself to other people's expectations and systems.

A born polemicist, he managed to find himself a diverse group of opponents and by the end of his life had entered into polemics, some of which were hostile with the self-proclaimed representatives of what he considered to be "nebulous collectivisms" such as Catholicism, liberal humanism, Marxism and fascism.

Death
Towards the end of his life he became increasingly involved in the growing anti-fascist movement in the Netherlands. When the Second World War broke out in 1939 he fell into a deep depression. Four days after Nazi Germany had invaded the Netherlands, on 14 May 1940, the Luftwaffe carpet-bombed his former hometown Rotterdam. Earlier that day, ter Braak and his wife had made a half-hearted attempt to find out if they could flee to England by boat from the port of Scheveningen, only to learn that under the circumstances such a trip was prohibitively expensive. When the Dutch army's supreme command announced capitulation in the late afternoon, Menno and Ant ter Braak went to the house of Menno's brother Wim and Ant's half-sister Mineke, also in The Hague. There, Menno ter Braak committed suicide by using a sedative, combined with an injection of poison (most likely administered by his brother, who was a neurologist). Coincidentally, his friend du Perron died at about the same time from a heart attack caused by angina pectoris.

Menno ter Braak's influence remained fairly large and lasted well into the 1950s; during the fifties his influence began to wane but a number of literary periodicals, especially Libertinage and Tirade remained faithful to a number of ter Braak's ideas.

title: Menno ter Braak


text:
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Welsh English

 __NOINDEX__
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was:  procedural close, already deleted. Avic ennasis @ 20:30, 27 Kislev 5777 / 20:30, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Votes for deletion/Welsh English
Old, malformed VFD listing with reason "this article needs a cleanup". Delete since VFD is not cleanup. Punkmorten 15:30, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
L.E.T.H.A.L. Ladies: Return to Savage Beach

L.E.T.H.A.L. Ladies: Return to Savage Beach, sometimes credited under just the subtitle, is a 1998 action film written and directed by Andy Sidaris, a sequel to Sidaris' Day of the Warrior. It features the return of much of the original cast, including Marcus Bagwell reprising the role as Warrior but this time working on the side of the L.E.T.H.A.L. Ladies, as well as the addition of former Playboy Playmate Carrie Westcott as the mysterious Sofia. It's the twelfth and to date, the last of a series of films informally called the Triple-B (Bullets, Bombs and Babes or Bullets, Bombs and Boobs) series, which began in 1985 with Malibu Express. It was also Sidaris' final film before his death.

This time around the L.E.T.H.A.L. Ladies must retrieve a stolen computer disk containing the location of a hidden treasure trove.

Cast

 * Julie Strain as Willow Black
 * Rodrigo Obregón as Rodrigo Martinez
 * Julie K. Smith as Cobra
 * Cristian Letelier as J. Tyler Ward
 * Shae Marks as Tiger
 * Marcus Bagwell as Warrior
 * Carrie Westcott as Sofia
 * Paul Logan as Doc Austin
 * Gerald Okamura as Fu
 * Ava Cadell as Ava
 * Carolyn Liu as Silk
 * Kevin Eastman as Harry the Cat
 * Marcus Young as Lead Kabuki/Lead Ninja
 * David Hopper as Ninja #2
 * Jeff McMahen as Ninja #3
 * Chuck Tam as Kabuki #2
 * Lelagi Togisala as Kabuki #3
 * Jefferson Hendricks as Guard

Former Sheriff Harold M. Terry, a marksman from Sidaris's native Caddo Parish, Louisiana, was the weapons advisor on the film.

Reception
The film gained retrospective cult following.