text:
User talk:Karmosin/Archive 3

Scandinavian languages
The anon has reverted your redirect and answered on the talk page. He has also added a disputed template, which is fine by me. I have not protected or reverted in any way, yet. Can you please direct your attention to his answer and my reply? I'd apprechiate it! Inter\Echo 12:12, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Maps
If you can't do them yourself, then I could certainly help. But I would need source pictures (they may be copyrighted, since I'll make a complete redraw on a GNU licenced map) - but, you could do this yourself, too, with almost any paint program. If you can't, do send me the source material. You can find my e-mail (and instructions to avoid my spamfilter) on a www link on my user page. --Janke | Talk 15:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, call me lazy, but I feel I'm a lot better at writing articles, recording sound files and making consonant tables than fiddling around in Photoshop. I'm a terrible artist if anything... And to be honest, it's nice not having to do everything myself. I prefer having some collaboration to duking it out on my own. I'll get back to you when/if I find proper source material.
 * Peter Isotalo 15:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Slovenian dialects
By chance, I have just found your post about Slovenian dialects. If you have any question regarding the issue, I suggest you contacting the author of the text (or have you perhaps already done it?) -- Eleassar  my talk 19:29, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * No, and I don't really have any questions right now. I was just trying to keep the fairly obvious nationalism out of the article. Slovene is sure to have features that makes it unique from other languages, but this needs to be described with proper NPOV. I'll check the SU library for books on Slovene when I have time, but I really don't have enough knowledge to start checking into this issue on my own.
 * Peter Isotalo 19:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Slovenian
Please, as you have redirected "Slovenian or Slovene" to "Slovenian", I have to inform you that the use of these terms has been very controversial here on Wikipedia. A consensus had been reached to write something about this topic long before the article was started. There's really much to explain and we would like to avoid duplicating the information. You can learn more about this at Talk:Slovenians (also includes references). You also should be more careful when creating a redirect: you made a double one.

On the other hand, have a look at the cluttered article/disambiguation page French, linking to the French encyclopedia and surely other cases could be found too. -- Eleassar  my talk 18:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

 * It wouldn't be the least bit controversial if you and BT2 just let everyone pick their favorite synonym and stopped wasting everyone's time with this non-issue. Please just drop this and concentrate on making real article improvements instead. You really need to focus your efforts on something that would actually benefit the project.
 * Peter Isotalo 18:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I let everyone choose what they like! What I have especially been striving for is to end the edit war between BT2 and XJaM and the only way I saw out of it was to make a new convention. We also have to agree what to use for headings and to be consistent when using these terms in articles. It's a general rule to consistently use only one term for an entity in an article. -- Eleassar  my talk 19:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

North (Germanic)
This is the standard for classifying these languages in English. I will not stop reverting to the proper notation. – AxSkov ( T ) 03:58, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * According to whom! At least claim something else but your own opinion on this one.
 * Peter Isotalo 04:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * At Ethnologue Languages of the World classifications are listed as:
 * Danish as: Indo-European, Germanic, North, East Scandinavian, Danish-Swedish, Danish-Riksmal, Danish
 * Icelandic as: Indo-European, Germanic, North, West Scandinavian, Icelandic
 * Norwegian as: Indo-European, Germanic, North, West Scandinavian, Norwegian-Nynorsk
 * Swedish as: Indo-European, Germanic, North, East Scandinavian, Danish-Swedish, Swedish
 * – AxSkov ( T ) 04:17, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Ethnologue is not Wikipedia and neither are they the ultimate authority when it comes to linguistics. We have our own guidelines and policies for these sort of things and none of them say that Ethnologue has the final word on anything language related. Least of all something as detailed as a minor layout issue of our own infoboxes. Add to this that SIL has some pretty outlandish theories about the classification of things like North Germanic languages and the separate classification of Flemish (which seems to be accepted by neither the linguistic community in general nor the vast majority of the speakers). I mean, just look at terms like "Danish-Swedish" or the separate classification of the two written variants of Norwegian. I've never seen any other linguist use this sort of terminology and certainly not among Scandinavian linguists (even if there is some of logic behind it).
 * Please try to respect that I want this added clarity added to the infoboxes for them to be as unambiguous and easy to read as possible, not just because I find it prettier or anything.
 * Peter Isotalo 11:58, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * No Ethnologue may not be, but then who is?
 * I have found a book on languages, which also uses similar notation for the classification of Germanic languages. For example Danish is classified as: Indo-European > Germanic > North > East Scandinavian > Danish. It also lists Norwegian as two variants, one belonging to West Scandinavian and the other to East Scandinavian – with Swedish and Danish.  It makes sense that Ethnologue lists both Danish and Swedish as branches off the Danish-Swedish branch, because Danish and Swedish are similar languages and are fairly intelligible between speakers of both these languages. The differences between Swedish and Danish are similar to the differences between English and Scots.  The type of Norwegian understood by the majority of Norwegians is Bokmaal, which is closely related to both Danish and Swedish.  This suggests that the classification of Norwegian needs to be reclassified as Indo-European > Germanic > North > East Scandinavian > Norwegian, which is also the classification in the languages book I have.
 * You also mentioned state the obvious where it says "there is no need to go overboard". By listing North as North Germanic, it is repeating the Germanic part above it and isn't necessary, its just repetition. With having the classification as Germanic > North, it is implied that North means North Germanic, as part of the Germanic branch, anyone with half-a-brain can work that out. – AxSkov ( T ) 07:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The confusion that Ethnologue causes about the status and classification of languages is a constantly reoccuring problem and it's very, very frustrating. Ethnologue is a useful tool in many situations, but when it comes to certain areas their academic standards seem to have been flushed down the toilet. They are in disagreement with all available sources when it comes to many classification issues and they do not provide the barest minimum of references. Their only reasoning for their deviant theories about a two-fold classification of Norwegian, for example, seems to be that one of the written standards of Norwegian has been heavily influenced by Danish. The reasoning for this, however, is very flawed. No one accepts that there are two Norwegian spoken languages. (I'm not quite sure that even SIL does, but since there is no way to see how they have come to their conclusions, it's impossible to tell.) Not even the Norwegians do it, though Norwegian is unique in a sense that dialectal deviations in formal and official contexts are much more tolerated that in many other national languages. SIL also completely ignores the fact that even Eastern Norwegian dialects are still part of a language continuum that descends from West Old Norse and shows many traits that are common with the other West Scandinavian languages.
 * As for "Danish-Swedish" as a separate branch, the idea is very speculative. These two languages are indeed more closely related to one another historically, but due to rivalry and nationalism that began after the independence of Sweden in the 16th century, there was actually deliberate attempts to distance the spoken languages from one another, and this is very apparant today. To most Swedes, spoken Danish can be very difficult to comprehend and vice versa. It's not like trying to understand German, but it is more than enough to merit subtitling of any Danish in Swedish TV. It also overlooks the fact that Old Gutnish is considered a member of the East Scandinavian languages, even if the language more or less merged with Swedish sometime in the 16th century and for all practical purposes can be considered to be extinct.
 * I strongly suggest you don't consider Ethnologue as a viable standalone reference in the future. If there are doubts about classification, the generally accepted theories of the linguistic community should be trusted, not the self-proclaimed authority of an organization that really doesn't fulfill acceptable academic standard and, well, verifiability.
 * That you wish to be so firm about such a minor issue as the wording of an infobox instead of accepting argumentation based on our own policies and the intentions to present clear wording is of course nothing I can do anything about, and I will not dwell on it. I hope you realize that we could fling various classification schemes from countless sources at each other claiming that one or the other is better represented without ever agreeing on which should be considered more authoritive.
 * Peter Isotalo 21:19, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I wasn't just using Ethnologue as a reference, but also a language book I have. The language book is "Atlas of Languages", which is produced by linguists, cartographers, etc.
 * About Danish & Swedish, well that's not quite true. I know people who speak Danish (grandmother, father, etc.) and can understand Swedish pretty well, while the people I know who speak Swedish cannot understand Danish very well; so I disagree with your vice-versa. Ethnologue is not the only one who has the "two-fold" classification of Norwegian, other texts also do this.
 * The Norwegian article says that there are two written forms of Norwegian: Bokmaal/Riksmaal which is closer to Danish and Swedish; Nynorsk/Høgnorsk which is closer to Icelandic. It doesn't really say much about whether or not there are one or two spoken languages, I feel it is lacking in this area and perhaps should be clarified. It also lacks references, which should be rectified.
 * Could you please give me some references in regards to language classifications (in English only, because I'm [unfortunately] monolingual)?
 * Until I find good references on language classifications, I will still consider Ethnologue a good reference source. – AxSkov ( T ) 09:47, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

 * For references on North Germanic language and classification, check my posts at Talk:Scandinavian languages. I would strongly recommend not taking the attitude that puts Ethnologue on a piedestal it doesn't necessaraly deserve. Take some time to actually diversify your knowledge of issues where you might not know that much. We all have them and there's nothing wrong with making some erroneous assumptions now and then, but sticking to old beliefs on account of over-confidence in just one source... It's going to waste a lot of time and effor for other editors to dig out the bare minimum of sources you might very well have checked on your own.
 * I've never seen anyone but SIL make a two-fold classification of Norwegian, because, like I said, the reasoning is flawed. There is no demarcation as to which speakers use which written language and there is absolutely no recognition of Norwegian dialects as separate languages as far as I know. According to Bjarte at the above mentioned talkpage, people who speak the same dialect can use different writing standards. It's more or of a political question with both tradition and nationalism involved, and not merely a matter of dialectal identity.
 * Peter Isotalo 11:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

please move a page
hi, could you please take a look at my request at Talk:Alice Deejay? muchas gracias. :) --213.209.80.54 15:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Province categories
Oh, NO. 23 subcats. :-( Bishonen | talk 00:38, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Tell me about it... There's also worthless categories like "Realm of Sweden", based on the silly idea about first directly translating "Svea rike" and then making it a separate term and article (which I have long since redirected to Sweden.
 * I suggest you simply delete everything that contains Latin names and we'll start from scratch. It's easier that way and we don't have to deal with a category structure that Mic will not be here to explain to us.
 * Peter Isotalo 10:08, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, right. When you say simply, you mean simply depopulate and delete them, don't you? For the pleasure of getting told by the Swedish Wikipedians' Notice Board how much more correct it would have been to conduct a poll there and wait until the acrimony pertaining to some of the provinces had played itself out and then to have put the categories up on Categories for deletion? Process, my dear boy! Sorry, I'm going on vacation. Bishonen | talk 13:55, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Gay Nigger Association of America FAC
Ok, I removed either duplicate or broken references, causing the references to jump down to 17 from 24. I do not know if this will gain a support vote, or you have more things for me to fix. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 07:25, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, what references do you think are redundant and we could use without? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:40, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Good start. I made another post at the FAC-page explaining some do's and dont's of footnoting. You also need to simply sum up your sources and put them in the "References"-section and move the notes currently in the "References"-section to "Notes". A formality, but pretty important.
 * Peter Isotalo 14:20, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Figures for Sweden..
''The 35,000 figure for Sweden seemed so unlikely that I removed it altogether. I'd be surprised if Hungarian speakers in Sweden were even in the thousands. Ethnologue mentions nothing of Hungarian speakers in Sweden, so please cite a source for this claim.''

Hej! Jag hittade inget annat sätt att kontakta dig på än detta, så jag ber om ursäkt om detta egentligen inte är korrekt tillvägagångssätt. Jag såg att du hade anmärkt på den ungersktalande minoritetens storlek i Sverige (se ovan). Om du söker på statistiska centralbyråns sida, kan du se att det finns ca 15.000 ungernfödda svenska medborgare just nu. Dessa kom väl framförallt i samband med revolutionen 1956. Som halvungrare så lärde jag mig att det finns ca 25-30.000 ungrare i Sverige. detta inkluderar då barn till ungrare ( sk "2:a generationens invandrare"). Denna siffra hörde jag senast i slutet av 80-, början av 90-talet. Med detta i åtanke känns inte alls siffran om 35.000 ungersktalande i Sverige idag felaktig.

Mvh, Sebastian ( kommonsens@freemail.hu )

What Wikipedia is not
Where does it say that Wikipedia is not a general knowledgebase? Sorry, I'm relatively new here. Brownman40 03:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * No wonder you didn't find it. What Wikipedia is not. I guess I was used to the old wording or something.
 * Peter Isotalo 03:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

A few SCA websites about subtleties
Also spelled "sotelties", so you can also Google for that. There is a page full of links at. Some particularly promising ones from that page are:
 * Menus for Feasts in 1387 and 1443
 * 16th and 17th century English references

Here is an archive of messages from the rec.org.sca newsgroup. If you dig through, they mention several books that might be helpful for you.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_Subtleties/ is an SCA wide (but not limited to SCA members) e-list dedicated to the research and recreation of subtleties and illusion foods from Medieval & Renaissance sources.

I think that Society for Creative Anachronism researchers are pretty compulsive about their sources, so their descriptions of historical practices are probably reliable. Hope this helps! FreplySpang (talk) 21:52, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Holkham Hall
Thanks for your support on FA. It will be one lucky page if it succeeds. Thanks Giano | talk 22:19, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Call in the academic mafia, dude!
 * Peter Isotalo 22:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

central vowels
hi. i found this paper on central & back vowel distinctions: http://www.und.nodak.edu/dept/linguistics/wp/2000Parker.PDF. although it is theoretical, it does have some descriptions of vowel systems with central vowels. just in case it may be interesting for you. (it also discusses Swedish a bit.) peace – ishwar  (speak)  16:54, 2005 August 11 (UTC)

 * Most informative. Thank you very much, ish.
 * Peter Isotalo 10:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Chennai
The inote work is done. Do you still have any objections to the article? =Nichalp  «Talk»=  19:46, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

An outrage
ICA Torkel Knutssonsgatan doesn't have the good sylt. I don't know where to get it. :-( Bishonen | talk 08:44, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh, poo! Like that's the only store you could've checked out! I'm gonna go downtown today and take some article photos. I'll see if I can find an ICA with the God-jam for you.

 * Peter Isotalo 10:25, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

re: British Spelling
Sorry about that. I usually do edit in the style of English most used within the article; but this time, for some reason, I just assumed it was British English. I'll switch it back to AmE. —Wayward 22:52, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I just try to avoid these conflicts before they ever break out...
 * Peter Isotalo 23:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Please don't edit other users' comments II
Hi Peter,

I noticed you edited one of my comments by striking through it. You did this without even commenting on the comment. Please refrain from doing this in future. I am sure you wouldn't appreciate it if I did it to your comments. Why exactly did you edit my comment?

Cedars 07:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Did you notice that Raul himself explained why your objection is not actionable?
 * Peter Isotalo 09:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It's still not acceptable to edit other user's comments. Did you notice Raul didn't edit my comment? This behaviour doesn't seem in line with your participation with the harmonious editing club. It would be appreciated if you made a pledge to stop editing other user's comments at least without their prior consent. I can comfortably say I have never edited another user's comments.
 * Cedars 10:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * This has been done before with people who submitted objections that are not actionable (though never by Raul as far as I know). You've clearly not read the FA criteria properly, misunderstood the point of footnotes and fail to take a hint when Raul explains that your objection is not required. I'll remove myself from the editing club, eventhough it's about editing articles, not discussion, but try to read up on these things before protesting...
 * Peter Isotalo 10:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Peer review of Swedish allotment system
Hi Peter, would you mind having a look at the article and make a few comments on the peer review page? -- Elisson • Talk 22:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Your voice recordings
Hi there, Peter. I've just been listening to some of your recordings on the Commons. May I just say that you blew me away. That recording of the Chinese name for China is as authentic as I've ever heard it spoken— I'm not Chinese, but have had many (granted, non-native) Chinese acquaintances, and wouldn't at all have been able to tell just by listening that you weren't yourself Chinese. And then there's the Swedish recordings, where you sound perfectly Swedish. How on earth do you do it? Keep it up! Hope to see many recordings from you in future.— Encephalon | ζ  17:05:49, 2005-08-16 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the compliments! The Swedish part isn't exactly difficult because... well... I'm Swedish. :-) I live in Stockholm now and I've always spoken Swedish with my parents, even though I'm partially raised in Moscow and have had Russian as a second (though now way tooo rusty) second language. As for the rest, I seem to have inhereted my mothers knack for accent imitation. She's also a native Swede, but speaks such fluent Russian that she's ever so often approached by ethnic Russian strangers who marvel at her perfect command of Swedish.
 * I really like your "wiki pedia"-analysis, by the way. Very concise and very descriptive, no matter where one stands.

 * Peter Isotalo 17:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of post
I'm going to remove your annoying post, that blames me for something that I have not been doing, shame on you. On some of those dates you mentioned, I wasn't even on the Internet let alone Wikipedia. Even though I do agree with some of the changes the user has made. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 03:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

 * So you're telling me it's just a coincidence that this anon supports the SIL-layout, the insistance on (e.i. -> that is), edits concerning Australia, various variants of English, Danish phonetics, etc. etc.? And the fact that you removed my first post with a non-descriptive edit summary ("few changes") isn't exactly in your favor here.
 * Peter Isotalo 03:42, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, for the first part. Secondly, I removed the post because I didn't like getting blamed for something I didn't do. I was going to remove the post again, but figured you would just post another message, so I decided to reply to you this time. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 03:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

 * No, you can remove it all you want. It's your talkpage and I'm not about to harass you if you don't want it there. However, it doesn't exactly work in your favor. Especially not when one of the IPs reverted when you were most definetly not out of town. E.i. ten minutes before you make your post here . The IP contributor doesn't seem to like using talkpages either. There's also the matter that you're reverting not only me, but other editors. And that's under your actual account.
 * Peter Isotalo 03:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the greet
What subtype of linguist are you btw? I'm currently a graduate student in computational linguistics but much prefer descriptive linguistcs. --Kaleissin 20:23:13, 2005-08-19 (UTC)

 * Oh, I'm no proper linguist. Just a very dedicated language nerd. But I am just about to start my first term of Mandarin at the University of Stockholm and it would be fun to take a proper linguistics course soon enough, but I'm still not sure exactly what I want to do with my life. My biggest weakness is probably a good grip of linguistic theory, grammar and what the various schools of thought within these fields actually represent, though I'm trying to pick things up as I go along. So far I've been very dedicated to phonetics and phonology (you can tell by reading Swedish language). I read up as best I can on unfamiliar subjects by raiding the campus library or making visits to KB now and then.
 * If you want to get in touch with our proper wikilinguists, there's Mark Dingemanse who is very dedicated to African languages, in particular Niger-Congo languages. There's also Angr (theoretical linguistics) and Wiglaf that I know actually are actually academics. But besides them there's Nohat, ish ishwar (mostly North American languages), dab and kwamikagami (lotsa phonetic articles). I've probably forgotten plenty of people, but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
 * I'm the one to turn to if you need pronunciations, though. I've done a lot of stuff in a lot of languages, mostly Swedish, Russian, Mandarin and Japanese and I'm always open to requests. Check out Category:Pronunciation at Commons for tons of other recordings as well.
 * Peter Isotalo 21:23, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Stamp cruft
Would you mind telling me in English what this phrase means? What right have you to demand that a whole subject gets deleted just because you are not interested in it and are too lazy to ask the author what he is doing, when it is clear from file histories that he is working on it every day?

--Jack 21:07, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

 * As it happens, I've since discovered what "cruft" means and it is obviously one of those pieces of jargon that some people use because they think it impresses others. It doesn't.  A few words of advice to you: don't use jargon.  It annoys people and causes them to form a poor opinion of you.  And there is nothing clever about it.  Attend an interview talking jargon and you will not get the job.  Speak in plain language and show that you know your stuff: you will get the job and impress everyone too.
 * As for stamps, have a look at the Philately section and you will see it is quite a serious study, although it is still in the relatively early stages of development. My current project can be found under category:Compendium of postage stamp issuers.  Look at that and if you still think it's "cruft" then so are 90%-plus of all articles on Wikipedia.  The deleted article has been restored and is there under its new pipelinked name.  So, no harm done in the long term and I apologise for getting annoyed.  Good luck with your studies.  --Jack 09:47, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The meaning of "cruft" is not "a hoaky, nerdy subject which no one is interested in", but rather "overly-detailed piece of information which is only relevant to a very select group of readers". It doesn't matter if they're called fans, nerds, trekkies, aficionados or connoisseurs; if it's quite obviously written to interest only oneself or perhaps ones closest peers then it is of no encyclopedic interest to me. And jargon is what communities are about. I'm sorry if you feel new and unfamiliar with it, but jargon is not a sign of arrogance or even xenophobia; it's just a matter of convenience.
 * If you're concerned about people taking philately seriously (I have absolutely nothing against stamp articles per se), you might want to spend your time here actually improving relevant top-level articles like philately or postage stamp instead of making endless, (that's right) crufty catalogues over sub-articles that are of interest almost only to philatelist. Both the articles I mentioned are fairly good, but one needs only a quick glance to see that they are far from finished.
 * The reason why I'm such a hard-line deletionist is because people quite frankly are wasting a lot of time with only overly-detailed lists (cruft), tables (cruft) and minutiae articles (more cruft) that are only really of interests to themselves and die-hard fans, and then get very defensive when you point this out to them. If you want editorial respect, earn it by writing good articles, not by adding yet more lists and categories.
 * Peter Isotalo 10:35, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

 * "...it is of no encyclopaedic interest to me" is just about the most self-centred comment I have seen on here. And you are?  You appear to object to lists containing summary information.  I suggest you study more encyclopaedias, because I think you will find useful summaries of this type in every single one.  If you want people to respect you, stop pretending to be a competent editor and stop throwing stupid words like cruft around.  The whole point of an encyclopaedia is (if I may quote from one learned tome I have at my disposal) to "embrace the whole circle of learning" and "(to be) a work containing information on every department of knowledge".  Articles are one means of conveying information but it takes time to study them thoroughly so encyclopaedists utilise other means of presenting information in the form of tables and diagrams.  Your dismissal of non-article presentation leaves you completely out of touch with the encyclopaedic concept.  --Jack 10:58, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Vilhelm av Oranien
Could you visit Talk:William of Orange and take a look what your old comrade Philip Baird Shearer has attempted to do. 217.140.193.123 09:55, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

 * From you three sentence comment, it is not clear to me if you were voting on the issue or personality. I hope it was after weighing up the evidence, considering the alternatives you made your decision base on the best alternative for the name William of Orange. Philip Baird Shearer 15:19, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Philiph, you're being a dick and you're obviously having a very hard understanding why people are upset. No person in their right mind wastes so much of other people's time and effort by setting up votes about non-issue POV-pushing article moves. Go write proper articles or take a vacation. Take other peoples protests seriously and don't abuse the wikibureaucracy to push petty personal agenda.
 * Peter Isotalo 09:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Holla!
Hey, Peter. You wanted me to let you know when I'm back, so here it is: I'm baaaa-aaaack! ;) IceKarmaॐ 22:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Huzzah!
 * Peter Isotalo 09:05, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Re : Slovenian or Slovene
Hi Peter,

Let's go through the votes for Votes for deletion/Slovenian or Slovene. I'll include your vote as well.

 * 1 Keep
 * 2 Merge
 * 2 Delete
 * 2 Redirect

Total 5 voters.

Point is, there isn't really a majority vote for any of the options. The point of VFD is to determine whether an article should be deleted or not by a sysop. Merging or redirect can be done by any other user boldy.

No concensus ≠ Keep. For a VFD closed as a keep, the nominator is not allowed to put it for VFD without another good case, and cannot perform any of the other above options. If you've merged an article just simply redirect to the merged article.

From your content of your message, may I ask you to assume good faith.

- Best regards, Mailer Diablo 10:58, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry if I opened harshly, but just check out Slovenian or Slovene. Eleassar is probably not going to give up until an admin actually writes it out clearly; "consensus is to delete or merge". I hate to use VfD this way, but it seems to be the only one.
 * Peter Isotalo 06:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Re:Scandinavian Peninsula
I've just reverted your change to the stub template on Scandinavian Peninsula. Sure "It's just geography", but look at it this way. If you've got editors who know about Scandinavia and will be able to extend this article, is it easier for them to find the article in a category relating to Norway or Sweden, or in a category containing geography stubs from throughout the world? If the geography stubs were not split by country and region, there would be 10,000 of them in one large category, and no editor would be happy wading through all of them looking for articles to extend. Please do not make things a lot harder for editors simply because you don't want an article on the land that makes up Norway and Sweden to be put in Norway- and Sweden-specific categories! Grutness...  wha?  06:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

 * You know, you could just create a "Scandinavia"-stub instead and skip the potential nationalist silliness. Your call.
 * Peter Isotalo 06:30, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Considering that this is one of only two or three articles whiich refer to both countries, that would mean either a separate stub template for two or three items (silly) or combining two already large categories into a more cumbersome one styill (also silly). No, I think sticking with the current (sensible) method is the way to go. Grutness...  wha?  01:28, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

AOL Proxy Madness
Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate all the help Bishonen and the other admins have been willing to give. Peace. WBardwin 06:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Culture of Ancient Rus
Peter, since we've met........ Cleaning up this article is on my "to do someday" list, but I'm happy to admit that Russia in the Middle Ages is not my strong point. If you have sources handy, an old history book?, would you consider looking it over? Thank you. WBardwin 07:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Way beyond me. I know very little about Russian history, let alone medieval Russia. You should try asking Wiglaf, though. He's very interested in the history and pre-history of the Vikings and Scandinavia, and I think he might know a thing or two about Russian history as well.
 * However, I will check with my mom, who's a historian specializing in Russian history. She might have some literature about it. Who knows? I might even learn something new. :-)
 * Peter Isotalo 15:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Slovenian or Slovene
I appreciate that you're willing to compromise and I think redirecting Slovenian or Slovene to the Naming convention is very reasonable, but please avoid linking to policy documents from article pages, even if they're only disambigs. We're supposed to avoid self-referencing of this kind except when an article is disputed, which is not really the case here.

 * I know the guideline, but in the past two and a half years many articles were "disputed" due to this and we have had a bunch of edit wars. Therefore it seems quite reasonable to include the link to the NC. The community has decided to include other self-reference links too, even though no articles were disputed. No one objects and I'm quite sure many people saw them. These things should be judged from case to case. By the way, I wonder why Slovenian cannot refer to country. Also, do you have any reference about Slovenian language being South Slavic; this is in contrast with Slovenian language. -- Eleassar  my talk 19:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know what other cases you're refering to, so I can't comment on them unless you actually give examples.
 * I understand that people sometimes fight over completely pointless minor details, but this is not a reason to start letting the conflicts spill over into the article namespace. In fact, it's very easy to lose track of the main objective of the project if you're involved in such a pointless dispute or just happen to be witnessing it long enough. We're not here to please the whims of troublesome contributors, but to write good articles. The way to deal with edit wars is not to produce non-articles to please disgruntled editors, but to either settle the issue through naming conventions or even arbitration if it comes to that.
 * You're right that "Slovenian" can indeed refer to the country, but it's a pure dictionary definition and... well... we're not a dictionary. At least that's how I write diambigs. Slovenian language does not say that it's a West Slavic language, but rather that it's a Western South Slavic language. It's just a form of sub-division.
 * Peter Isotalo 20:18, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I have just come back to correct my sentence about the contradiction. I'll reply tomorrow. -- Eleassar  my talk 20:22, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, it's only that you understand something as being encyclopedic differently than I do. It has nothing to do with pleasing disgruntled editors. But let us leave this aside.

 * I wish to say something about the disambiguation. You know, I wonder why would the explanation that Slovenian is a dictionary definition hold only for the country but not also for the language and the inhabitants.

 * I also wish to ask what you're planning to do about the disambiguation pages German, French and English. Also be aware of (for example) the articles Human (not to mention Mannaz), morning and especially Freedom, discussing the terminology and the etymology. Are you going to change them too? It would be neither efficient neither appropriate, according to the following:

 * "Wikipedia is not in the business of saying how idioms, etc., are used. (But, of course, it's often very, very important in the context of an encyclopedia article to say just how a word is used. E.g., the article on freedom has a long discussion about this.)".

 * I think this also holds for the case of using Slovenian as pertaining to the country, even though it's not an article but a disambiguation. -- Eleassar my talk 08:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Look, you have to pretty much disregard the outside world if you want to claim that a minor naming conflict without any background except conflicting views of esthetics to consider Slovenian or Slovene encyclopedic. It has come to being solely because of an wiki-internal conflict, which is reason enough to not keep it.
 * As for disambig pages, it's pretty pointless to bring up the verbose nature of other disambigs as an argument for verbose dismbigs. I know people tend to fill these pages with a lot of irrelevancies, but just because it's still common doesn't mean it's desirable and it's certainly not a good argument to keep them.
 * In any case, the wording right at now at Slovene doesn't seem bad to me, so let's leave it at that. I am, however, going to fix the disambigs you mentioned.
 * Peter Isotalo 08:43, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I appreciate your decision and will made only a small modification to the existing text of the disambig page (Slovenian is more frequently used). On the other hand, as I said, we have conflicting views on what is encyclopedic (and what arguments can be given on this matter (besides aesthetics also history, etymology, orthography etc) and why it came into being (references were written before Wikipedia came into existance), but let us leave it behind, as our arguing doesn't contribute to anything. -- Eleassar my talk 10:00, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Inline refs
Peter would you take a look at this: Wikipedia talk:What is a featured article. You and Taxman had been recently debating about which method is better. I've proposed a simple solution, a developer would have to work on it though). Taxman's agreed to it. Thanks. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:24, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

You Win
Regarding the classification of the sub-branch names for various languages, I concede defeat. -- Anon 08:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Then please stop reverting all the time. / Peter Isotalo 08:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

 * That's exactly what I'm going to do. I would not have post this message if I wasn't going to stop! -- Anon 08:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

IRC?
IRC? Bishonen | talk 17:25, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

"At least N independent discussions" criterion for conlang verifiability/notability
Please see Conlangs/Alternative proposal for a possible refactoring of this criterion. Does the refactoring answer your objections? --Jim Henry | Talk 20:08, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
 * You might also be interested in my general comment further down the page, which might possibly better answer the objections I guess you have. / Alarm 22:01, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

AfD Cartoon physics
May I respectfully suggest you withdraw your AfD? Reason: This article is featured on Unusual_articles - it has been there a long time. Quote from that page: These articles are valuable contributions to the encyclopedia, but are somewhat odd, whimsical, or... Regards, --Janke | Talk 12:49:52, 2005-09-07 (UTC)
 * Did you check "What links here" on Cartoon physics? We're talking animation here, not just cartoons, which has several definitions. --Janke | Talk 17:07:27, 2005-09-07 (UTC)
 * Do you mean these rules only apply to animated cartoons or that they're completely unheard of in just regular comic books?
 * As for withdrawing the nomination, I don't think it matters one bit. It'll stay up until an admin decides to remove it or until the 5 days are up. It's a bureaucratic flaw as far as I know.
 * Peter Isotalo 17:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

 * No, of course they are applied in comics, and elsewhere, too. I tend to concentrate on animation, because I'm an animator... ;-) These laws have been de facto "working rules" in animation for well over 80 years now - and just because they are funny, and make a Wikipedia article funny, isn't a reason for AfD, if you ask me. This is as serious a treatise on a paiter's tools, brushes, canvas, oils etc. - Vi får väl återkomma! Keep up the good work! --Janke | Talk 18:35:42, 2005-09-07 (UTC)
 * Discussion continued at talk:cartoon. / Peter Isotalo 18:58, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Belarus
FYI, I did start working on the Belarus article, after your suggestion, and it is now at FAC. It can be seen at Featured article candidates/Belarus. Zach (Sound Off) 15:23, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I think this will interest you
Hi. I think the article Silverpilen would interest you. May be you have heard of it? It seems suspect.

Regards, Fred-Chess 19:58, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

IPA Recordings
Hi Peter,

Samples for the following sounds are waiting to be recorded by you:

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_nasal
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_bilabial_approximant
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_lateral_flap
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velar_lateral_approximant
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_epiglottal_fricative
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_epiglottal_fricative
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiglottal_plosive
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labial-palatal_approximant
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_click
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_affricate
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_postalveolar_affricate
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_postalveolar_affricate
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_affricate
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Voiced_alveolo-palatal_affricate&action=edit

--Pipifax 01:13, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

"This is a chat weapon"
I just wanted to concur with you, and also to compliment you on the eloquent turn of phrase. I think you summarized a lot of people's feelings very concisely. Regards, Nandesuka 12:07, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Your message for Carlsmith
Please be reminded to get Carlsmith noticed if you've got a message for him at my talk page.. just in case he's not watching. Thanks. :-D — Instantnood 07:26, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Kammerlader
Hi. I applogies for 'spamming' your talkpage like this, but some time ago you was helpfull with comments on one of 'my' other articles on old Norwegian rifles and I wondered if you might be interested in helping out peer reviewing the article on the Kammerlader. Thank you for your time. WegianWarrior 11:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your plight and the article looks very promising, but I try to avoid spending time on articles in subjects that are already very well-represented by similar articles. It's already the third article on Norwregian rifles. If you were to consider improving higher-level articles like rifle, I would be more than happy to assist. It's not so much that I don't like the subject, but I'm simply not eager to help out when it gets super-detailed. At least not in subjects I don't know really well. It's not personal, just my way of fighting systemic bias.
 * Peter Isotalo 13:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Karmosin/Archive 3


text:
Talk:Pearly penile papules

Genetic cause
Is this problem hereditary ?
 * It's not a problem unless you make it a problem. --Liebeskind (talk) 23:18, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Reapperance
The article doesn´t mention the probabilities of its reapperance, or rather does it reappear after treatment is finished ?200.55.135.211 (talk) 17:20, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Soldering iron
Who in their right mind posted the soldering iron removal method? Some poor kid will try that and mutilate himself! That needs removed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.56.26.232 (talk) 10:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the most stupid things I have ever seen put on Wikipedia. Removed.  Geoff B (talk) 17:11, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It appears we have 4chan to thank for that. 76.185.32.199 (talk) 21:06, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I added info and links about the genetic relationship of this to 'penile spines' in other species. It's just more evidence that this is a normal variant of human penises. I also changed the "treatment" section to "removal", since you can treat a disease but this is not a disease.

I have also added a "myths and misunderstandings" section to underline the dangers of self-treatment, which is discussed in the literature. I googled this topic, and there are a huge number of sites giving truly horrible self-mutilation advice to young and uneducated men who don't know that these are normal and non-pathological physical features. I shudder to think what damage they're doing to their penises. EdgarCarpenter (talk) 21:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Video
The recent replacement of the main image with a video has been undone because: --TBM10 (talk) 14:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The existing image is of high quality whereas the video is of lesser quality;
 * Under WP:MEDICAL it is not the role of WP to help individuals who have hirsuties coronae glandis to better identify them;
 * The existing image clearly depicts appropriately and sufficiently the subject matter;
 * If readers wish to see more media, such as additional images or the video, there is a link at the bottom of the article to Wikimedia Commons category.

Incidence
Previous version of the article estimated incidence at "a quarter of adult men," using as a source the American Health and Beauty website, which itself did not cite a source. I have replaced that with 8 to 48 percent, citing a Medscape page which, in turn, cited the Int J STD AIDS. We actually mention that journal as a bulleted item in the References section, but the journal requires payment for access. At any rate, Int J STD AIDS and Medscape seem to me like a more rigorous source than AH&B. Of course, "8-48%" is a huge range and thus unlikely to be incorrect. Personally, having seen a lot of penises, I find any estimate > 10% a bit high, but that observation is both unreliable (selection bias, etc.) and OR. Peter Chastain (talk) 09:02, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Vestigial penile spines?
"They are usually considered as vestigial remnants of penile spines, sensitive features found in the same location in other primates." the Kingsley Lab [Https://kingsley.stanford.edu/SpinesVsPapules.html https://kingsley.stanford.edu/SpinesVsPapules.html] states that they do not believe that the papules are related to penile spines due to them being made of different cell types and not having neural structures. Is this enough to remove the current claim that they are vestigial?

The Kingsley paper in question is https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0084258 Baculumwizard (talk) 17:28, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Pearly penile papules


text:
File talk:KillersKissPoster.jpg

Killer's Kiss poster
Hi there. The poster of Killer's Kiss doesn't look right to me. It appears that the the tag line in the upper 1/3 was put in via a paint program. Doesn't look authentic. I did a google and this poster, could be all from the same source, is on a lot of different sights. What do you think? Steve-O 09:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

title: File talk:KillersKissPoster.jpg


text:
Talk:Portable Data Terminal

how can i access a software from my computer to Portable Data Terminal

Pdt's =(
We use mostly crappy pdt's where I work. The new one's w/ the touch screen and whatnot are pretty cool but most of the time mess up.

title: Talk:Portable Data Terminal


text:
Talk:List of longest tunnels

List of tunnel by depth
How about a table listening tunnels by their maximum rock coverage?

Like this: http://www.japan-tunnel.org/nttj/statistical_data/index2.html

Coccodrillo 18:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Metro tunnels
Metro tunnels should be excluded from the main table, in my opinion. They could stay in the separate table, if you like. Metro tunnel as I said are always near the surface and made by several shorter tunnels. There are hundreds of subways, it's useless to add the lenght of all their tunnels. Maybe some particular tunnels could be added (the BART tunnel under the Bay in San Francisco, as example). Coccodrillo 08:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Future of this article?
Any ideas on what should be done with this article, compared with List of tunnels?--ZorroIII 09:04, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not the Guinness Book of Records. Perhaps a section on the engineering difficulties of building a long tunnel might be useful...
 * No, it isn't, but a plain list list of thousand of uninteresting tunnel would be useless. Coccodrillo 14:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is -- a list of thousands of interesting tunnels would be quite useful. Ah, the nature of the Wiki-free-for-all...

No CERN?
Surely LEP's 27 km tunnel warrants inclusion.

Other types of tunnels
The CERN tunnel is one example. Another is the networks of tunnels in places where they were used for warfare or as escape routes. Would those be included in such a listing??

I think the middle table, named "Vehicular" should be skipped. The bottom table ("Top 100") covers those tunnels anyway. Tables of other kinds of tunnels could be a good addition.--Blue Elf 20:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * If someone wants to include other types of tunnels (industrial/mine/others not for public) then try to find some info and go ahead. Minimum requirement: walkable. Some war escape/hiding tunnels are so narrow that they are crawlable, not walkable. I have added some metro railway tunnels, noone else has. - BIL 14:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Norðoyatunnilin (Faroe Islands)
According to my sources (Stamps.fo and the Danish travel guide Turen går til Færøerne of 2005), the tunnel is on 6,300 m and thus some places more in top of the ranking. Where is the 6,100 m in the article from? -- Arne List 19:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Railway tunnels (excluding subways)
Why are subways excluded from this? It seems entirely arbitrary, and excludes some very long tunnels. At the very least, it needs it's own category. Until relatively recently, the Morden to East Finchley section of the London Underground's Northern Line was the world's longest tunnel.
 * It is hard to define what a tunnel is: some underground tunnels are very long, but just under the surface. It is harder (normally) to build 20 km of tunnel under 2000 m of mountains than 100 km of subway tunnel, under 50 m of rocks (build it without causing damages to the buildings on the surface, that is another matter). I think subway tunnels should not be included (often, there are more short tunnels linked one to another). Coccodrillo 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Be honest, you just want to exclude cut-and-cover. And that's fine. As for the mountains-only idea, the Marmaray underwater tunnel is most interesting and is of decent length. 24.200.248.28 05:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Marmaray in my opinion can be included, because is not a subway... Coccodrillo 18:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, I think we should exclude tunnels that have not been opened, are or have just been proposed. FrFintonStack 18:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * While I agree that many proposed tunnels will not be built und thus cause a bloated listing, I think that tunnels well under construction should be mentioned. Maybe not in the main table but then in an additional list.--Klaus with K 09:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I added two long Subway/Metro/Underground/Rapid tranist (whichever it is called) tunnels as you suggested. It is hard to find info about such tunnels. /BIL 23:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I can add the fact that they were completely removed from the German version of this article, since the stations could not be called tunnels, in their eyes. The Subway tunnels have more passengers than any other tunnel, but still there is hard to find info about them. I have measured some with detailed maps and Google Earth. -- BIL 22:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Subways are usually made of several sub-surface tunnels, sometimes built underground, sometimes by cut&cover. I think that these tunnels should not added to this article at all, simply because...there are hundreds of subway lines in the world, each dozens km long, with several other service tunnels. I think a table with the length of hundreds of subways lines is of no interest. Maybe a page about building tunnels in an urban environment, with some exemples, could be more interesting. Coccodrillo 18:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Above, a number of reasons have been given why not to have them in a list, no one good. They are too shallow, they are too long and too many, etc. There are many railway tunnels also but few so long. I can agree one thing, there is very hard to find info about the tunnel lengths. I have used maps and satellite images for some of them, but that could count as original research, that Wikipedia should not be the only place that has published some infomation. -- BIL 22:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Brenner
This tunnel has two (already existing) approaches on the north; measured by the longer Innsbruck bypass approach it will be 62,700 m, thus passing Gotthard. [BBT technical data (in German)] Gotthard, for its part, has an extension under consideration (the Axentunnel, which would increse its overall length to some 75,000 m. As this is only under consideration, it is too early to include in the table. Aldenrw (talk) 19:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

New organisation idea
Here is a proposal on how to structure the tunnel lists.

 * List of tunnels would be a central navigational page, leading to:
 * List of tunnels by length, purely based on length, not type
 * List of tunnels by type, with sections for rail and road etc (much like this current page)
 * List of tunnels by location, sorted into countries

We would have a navigation template at the top of each article, linking to the others.
 * Disadvantage of List of tunnels being rather empty, and a new tunnel needs to be mentioned on three pages. But I think these are minor objections.--Klaus with K 09:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. The German longest-tunnel-page de:Liste der längsten Tunnel der Erde looks well-structured to me.--Klaus with K 09:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Another idea: the distances should be km (mi). This convention is generally followed (eg the road tunnels on this page don't even list the imperial measurement), but not everywhere on this lists. It makes sense because most of the tunnels use km, ie they are built in countries using metres.--Commander Keane 13:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Distances should be metric, I slightly prefer metres over kilometres. As for the imperial measurement, the really real proper way is to use miles and chains.--Klaus with K 09:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Distances should be metric first. If no one objects, I will switch soon.--Jusjih 05:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No objection, only suggenstions... Length in metres (miles) ... merge the tables and add a small width column (Rail, Road, Metro, Water, Canal...) ... what do you think about comments like on the German page? If you think they make sense I could be convinced to write/translate them.--Klaus with K 16:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I cannot read German, so if you wish, please translate.--Jusjih 01:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * These comments read like 'longest rail tunnel' 'longest road tunnel' 'longest underwater distance' 'longest land-based tunnel' and so on. If you add a comment column, I could add some contents when I find time (it is not that much).--Klaus with K 14:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Avoid water tunnels ?
We should avoid water pipes and tunnels, otherwise we could consider including gas and oil pipelines, often buried, thousands of km. A requirement could be that it shall be used to transport people. /BIL 18:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Should we keep a list of "Longest continuous rock tunnel" ? The article about the Bolmen Water Tunnel (82 km) just barely was allowed to exist. There was a vote about whether to delete it. That hints that this type of tunnel is not so interesting. OK, the two listed here are long and more than 2 m in diameter, but still ? BIL 18:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Some tunnels built for boats exists: they shuld be included in a separate table! http://home.no.net/lotsberg/ Coccodrillo 17:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Why should we avoid water tunnels? That makes no sense. Gas and oil pipes can not be used as an excuse, since they are not tunnels and thus would not be included in the list anyway. I can not see any reason why the requirement should be transporting people. But if such a limitation is set, then that should be mentioned in the article, and the name of the article should be changed to something like "List of road and railway tunnels by length". Current situation is very misleading.
 * The table "The world's longest tunnels - in use" claims that the longest tunnel is Seikan Tunnel (53 km). However, Päijänne Water Tunnel is 120 km. And it is not a "pipe", it is a rock tunnel big enough for a truck. --PauliKL (talk) 15:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

 * They are included in List of further tunnels by length article, i think that is enough. --Jklamo (talk) 17:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Road and railway tunnels are listed on that page, too. That should be enouch for them, too, and they should be removed from this page (leaving nothing in the list). The name of this page is List of tunnesl by length. It makes no sense to omit the longest tunnels from the list. Therefore, the water tunnels should be added back to this list. Or, at the very least, the name of this page should be changed to something like List of road and rail tunnels by length. But I don't see any purpose for such list, after all the tunnels are listed in the page List of further tunnels by length. Thus, I would say that either the contents of this page should be changed back to include all the longest tunnels, or this page should be removed. --PauliKL (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

2009
How come that we right now can have one (but only the longest) water supply tunnel, when we can't have metro tunnels. --BIL (talk) 16:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * We (collectively and consensually, as editors) can probably agree to put anything we want as the title/introduction, and to fill in the data to reflect that it says on the tin. IIRC, the article did previously state: "Often [metro tunnels] are not considered continuous because the stations do not count as tunnels" ( but that was removed... ).  This sentence least provided an explanation as to why (arbitrarily) metro tunnels had been excluded.  Depending on your point of view, it would probably be sensible to either add the longer metro lines (if the information can be sourced), or to restore the note covering their transfer to a separate listing.  —Sladen (talk) 12:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I would say that many water aqueduct tunnels are most definitely tunnels and not just pipes: constructed using tunnelling techniques like hard-rock drilling and blasting, sited tens or even hundreds of feet below the surface. A problem might be distinguishing which sections of a particular aqueduct are a continuous tunnel (q.v. the Catskill_Aqueduct article, which gives distances of various types of tunnelling but doesn't state whether those are continuous sections or aggregate totals). I do think that water tunnels are more qualified for listing than metro/subway tunnels as metros are frequently constructed as many separate segments of tunnel. Perhaps for the purpose of metro tunnels, segments that are clearly bored as one tunnel section, even if stations are present, could be measured. An example of this would be the Stockholm Metro Blue Line, which is a bored rock tunnel with the stations constructed using mining techniques rather than excavation from surface access. (talk) 21:16, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion for the merged tables
I tentatively shortened the Length in metres (miles) and the Year Completed in an attempt to have less empty space in the table. For now I do not have line breaks inside the table cells.--Klaus with K 13:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Merged tables started
I have started to merge the tables, so far railway and road included. Metre values mostly taken from http://home.no.net/lotsberg/data/rail.html and http://home.no.net/lotsberg/data/tun10.html as the old metric values were rounded, some even having suffered metric->imperial->metric conversion. Some metre values look to me like still rounded to the nearest 10m or 100m. Table cutoff a function of my available time today, see notes inside the tables.--Klaus with K 20:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I see the necessity to keep the column entries short, the table tends to get quite wide (and the year ranges for the tube tunnels do not help either but I do no know how to avoid it in these cases of staged construction). Short: no multiple mentioning as in Railway/Railroad or Metro/Subway/Tube/Underground, even the single Railroad is slightly on the long side. Distinctive: avoid similarities like Road vs Railroad, Railway vs Subway.--Klaus with K 21:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

No Rank numbers please
As new tunnels are being built and completed, each single new entry added to a table would require the change of all subsequent rank numbers which is a maintenance pain. Hence no ordinal numbers please.--Klaus with K 10:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

 * According to Road tunnels under construction there are 8 road tunnels to open in the next 4 years. Who is going to edit all these rank numbers in Vehicular each time?--Klaus with K 11:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

 * And I planned to merge some of the double-tube tunnels into one, some are considered different tunnels. I planned to rank only top ten, now I have to remove the numbers. /BIL 12:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Merged vehicular tunnel table
We should merge the two tables for Road tunnels. The question is which format ? I waited for a principle regarding the format of other tables, but there is no real agreement between them. I assume I will use the format of the merged table, without the "type" column. In princle as the "Vehicular" but metres and a comment column. /BIL 11:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Why only merge the two Road table and not include them in the merged tables at the top? Is it because at any given length there are far more rail than road tunnels?
 * Ok, now to your question. Yes, format of merged table, without type and rank, would do fine. If possible use accurate numbers for the metre values, see sources above. Any opinion whether to preserve the opening days when given?--Klaus with K 16:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi BIL, I see you start editing. Remarks from my side: So far my constructive criticism for tonight.--Klaus with K 18:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Do away with the rank. Each new tunnel means editing loads of rank numbers.
 * Add miles as well. As a metric person I do not care, but there is imperial folk.
 * Adding info on second tube is good, however, one cannot see whether the old or the new tube is longer. Maybe specify older or younger in place of second. As you use <br>between year, the table entry already is two lines high, so you could do the same for the two lengths, and comment two tubes without the length.

 * Why list numerous vehicular examples by nation, then throw in one listed by an American state? That's apples and oranges. Why not use the same denominator?

Seikan
The Seikan Tunnel hosts two cape gauge (1067 mm) tracks, so it is useless to write "longest metre-gauge tunnel" about the Vereina.

I'm trying to write dedicated pages for some tunnel, such as the Vereina Tunnel. Someone should correct my English. Coccodrillo 13:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

 * The Simplon Tunnel should be considered as only one thing. It's true that they were opened 15 years apart, but it's common to open the second tube of any tunnel only when the traffic requires it. Coccodrillo 17:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

List of further tunnels by length
Tagged since over a year, I have a bold moment and shall tidy up this page. Noting that people have invested work into the non-merged sections, I'll move this content to a page to be named List of further tunnels by length and leave it to others if they feel this leftover sections should be reorganised differently.--Klaus with K 16:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Metres --> Kilometres?
I don't think this needs to be in metres. There is no need for 5 figure accuracy here. An extra decimal can be added in order to seperate an tunnels that are close in length. Agree/Dissagree?Shniken1 02:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Disagree Technical information is given in metres, the plans are of better accuracy than mere metres, and I do not see a reason why one should downgrade information. Adding decimals later means sourcing information again, giving different numbers of decimals makes for an incoherent appearance of the table. -- Klaus with K 09:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Disagree per Klaus with K, anyway for correct length sorting we need at least 4 figure accuracy --Jklamo 16:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel
This tunnel is at planning stage. Some intermediate access on the french side have ben built, but nothing on the italian side and it is not sure that the main tunnel will be built. There have been seveal announces, but nothing has been done untill today. Coccodrillo (talk) 22:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What counts
This edit (Removing water ans [sic] electricity tunnels. If someone does not like this, please explain on the discussion page where it is defined that they should be include). I don't have an objection, but it would be useful to have a definition for what this list is; currently going by the tunnel it is merely tunnels - in use. The two tunnels: Should we rename this to "transport tunnels"? There are other interesting examples; Eg. —Sladen (talk) 20:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Päijänne Water Tunnel (Finland, 120 kilometres, 1 × 16 m2) is a bare rock tunnel is sufficiently large enough to drive the service vehicles along.
 * The London Connection (London, 20 kilometres, 1 × 7 m2) is a TBM-bored tunnel with its own suspended monorail system.
 * Channel Tunnel Rail Link combined East/West Tunnels (London, 7+10 kilometres, 2 × 40 m2) but separated in the middle by the sunken Stratford International railway station (1 kilometre) "box".

 * I think that in the list only traffic (railway and road) tunnels must be shown, except S-Bahn and metro tunnels in cities.
 * A lot of electric tunnels have service raiwlays along them, but these railways are only used to mantain their tunnel (eg transporting cables, tubes, etc), not to transport goods. So i think they shoult not considered here. Maybe they cab be included in a separate table, but not on the main table.
 * Two bored tunnels, built separately, but linked by an artificial part can be considered a single tunnel. But the Stratford station seems to be opened, even if in a trench, so the two 10 and 7 km tunnels can't be counted as one.
 * Coccodrillo (talk) 14:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add a tunnel to this list! Called the Orange River Fish Tunnel located in South Africa. Second longest water tunnel in the world at 82.5Km (51Miles) and 5.35m (17.5ft) in diameter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajax0121 (talk • contribs) 00:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ —Sladen (talk) 12:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

 * There are hundreds of water tunnels longer than 13 km, if we add all of them the list would bee endless...
 * I think also that the numbers in List of long tunnels by type should be more precise (ie 28,377 m instead of 28.4 km for the Guadarrama tunnel) Coccodrillo (talk) 11:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If we had more information, we would easily be able to restrict it to say, the top 1% for each type. At the moment the only criteria for the list is "tunnels - in use";  so if you can find them add them.  —Sladen (talk) 11:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Some water tunnels longer than 13 km in Switzerland: Altstaffel-Robiei 13 km, Bärenburg-Sils 13 km, Grande Dixence 13 km, Lucomagno-Luzzone 14 km, Olivone-Malvaglia 15 km, Riddes 15 km, Caverna-Palgnedra 23 km. Coccodrillo (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorting by Length is broken
As it's performing an alphabetic sort instead of numeric. I've read Help:Sorting and thought hidden keys must be the way to go but can't get it to work. Any wiki gurus in the house able to shed light on how to fix this up? Oosh (talk) 06:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Brenner
The Brenner Base Tunnel will connect underground with the existing Innsbruck bypass Tunnel, for a total length of 62.7 km. Thus, the total length will exceed that of the Gotthard Base Tunnel by over 5km. Seems obvious to me. Comments?

Brenner Base Tunnel project page

Aldenrw (talk) 21:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I think that if it is chosen 62.7 as length then the name in the table should be changed in "Brenner Base+Innsbruck Bypass" or similar with a note explaining that there are two linked tunnels, with a different history and structure (two single track tubes the Brenner, one double track tube the bypass). Another similar case will touch the Gotthard Base Tunnel if and when the proposed Axen tunnel is connected directly with it. The GBT has yet two underground caverns for that. Coccodrillo (talk) 20:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The refs, the refs
WP calls for the use of templates such as cite web, cite book, etc. These raw web sites are practically useless. Also, this IS the English WP. I realize we are writing about an international topic, but in English. Sometimes there is no other recourse than to use sites in the original language. These are, as I say, useless to most English speakers. This is one of the drawbacks to being a speaker of a dominant language. Most Europeans speak at least another, but you don't realize English is in most cases our only language. I've heard the academics rail about this ignorance all my life and yet it is just as true today as it was in 1980 (sure, Dave. 1950?). To us, Reykjavik is still rinkey-dink. I recast the first ref to show you what might be done with Internet resources. If you could manage something like it for the rest of the gobbledeygook I am sure most native English speakers would appreciate that greatly, as this is quite an interesting article. As for the non-Roman alphabets - forget it, I am sorry to say. Try to get something in English.Dave (talk) 10:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Gotthard Base Tunnel incorrectly added to the longest tunnels in use
The final break through in the east tube occurred on 15 October 2010. The break through in the west tube isn't expected until April 2011.

People keep adding this tunnel to the list of tunnels in use. It may not be completed until 2017 so is not in use.

StuZealand (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Kárahnjúkar
The Kárahnjúkar hydroelectric plant in Iceland involves a tunnel network with 72 kilometers of tunnels combined, however the longest distance from one opening to another is 39.7 kilometers. Here is a description, here is an overview of all the tunnels and here is a map where the tunnels are marked with blue lines. Which number should be used in the list? --85.220.101.221 (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Gotthard Base Tunnel
Adept for new record --W.Rebel (talk) 22:42, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

something is amiss
When the top table, World's longest tunnels (in use), first loads with the page it is ordered by length from longest to shortest. Well and fine. If you click to reverse the length order, it appears to be fine. But if you click again to return to longest>shortest the top 2 entries (Delaware Aquaduct and Päijänne Water Tunnel) disappear. Refreshing the page returns to proper state.  ◦◦derekbd  ◦   ◦my talk◦◦  03:43, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Noticed this as well. The 'UNK proton accelerator' of ~21,000 m, also behaved incorrectly because of a misplaced ~. This I corrected but what the other two problems could be, I am at a loss. The code for these looks perfectly fine.. AlwaysUnite (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Qanats
I'm unsure as to the requirements for inclusion but should this list possible include (still functioning) qanats? The Wardak Qanat with 8m seems to qualify, as does the Turpan water system which seems to include qanats up to 10km long (the German wiki has a source for that). The Gadara qanat was an impressive 94km but probably doesn't qualify as it's no longer operational. Akerbeltz (talk) 23:01, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The list now seems to be limited to tunnels longer than 14 km. So that leaves only the Gadara qanat: I've tentatively created a new section for it: 'abandoned tunnels.' Let's see what happens. Uanfala (talk) 00:10, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Thirlmere Aqueduct
Thirlmere Aqueduct is not continuous (see File:Thirlmere Aqueduct Higher Wheelton.jpg or ) and it is more likely pipeline than tunnel. I think it should be excluded from this list. --Jklamo (talk) 17:48, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

This point is so obvious that I am astounded that Thirlmere was ever included in this article.Flying Stag (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 9 one external links on List of longest tunnels in the world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131213003221/http://new.onemine.org/search/summary.cfm/EvinosMornos-Tunnel--Greece-Construction-of-a-30-Km-Long-Hydraulic-Tunnel-in-Less-Than-Three-Years-Under-the-Most-Adverse-Geological-Conditions?d=4196E212BCD1388ED3A7769E6B77DD7AF1E26CB727E7188DA9D6416E43747A8F37321 to http://new.onemine.org/search/summary.cfm/EvinosMornos-Tunnel--Greece-Construction-of-a-30-Km-Long-Hydraulic-Tunnel-in-Less-Than-Three-Years-Under-the-Most-Adverse-Geological-Conditions?d=4196E212BCD1388ED3A7769E6B77DD7AF1E26CB727E7188DA9D6416E43747A8F37321
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120208134434/http://www.tunnelintelligence.com/awards-in-detail-50.html to http://www.tunnelintelligence.com/awards-in-detail-50.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140630180945/http://www.climaxmolybdenum.com/WorldwideLocations/USA_Colorado_Henderson.htm to http://www.climaxmolybdenum.com/WorldwideLocations/USA_Colorado_Henderson.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120526160741/http://www.robl.w1.com/Transport/tunnel.htm to http://www.robl.w1.com/Transport/tunnel.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080225190827/http://www.britannica.com:80/eb/table?tocId=9438409&idxStructId=105759&typeId= to http://www.britannica.com/eb/table?tocId=9438409&idxStructId=105759&typeId=
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120302104804/http://lib.semi.ac.cn:8080/tsh/dzzy/wsqk/spie/vol7292/72923g.pdf to http://lib.semi.ac.cn:8080/tsh/dzzy/wsqk/spie/vol7292/72923g.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090109051907/http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/fileadmin/filemounts/general/pdf/ItaAssociation/ProductAndPublication/OpenSession/OS_2006_4SKE-C.pdf to http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/fileadmin/filemounts/general/pdf/ItaAssociation/ProductAndPublication/OpenSession/OS_2006_4SKE-C.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110910043534/http://www.bbt-se.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=140&lang=en to http://www.bbt-se.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=140&lang=en
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20121130092401/http://www.oebb.at:80/infrastruktur/de/5_0_fuer_Generationen/5_4_Wir_bauen_fuer_Generationen/5_4_1_Schieneninfrastruktur/Pontebbanaachse_Suedbahn/Koralmbahn/Wettmannstaetten__St._Andrae/index.jsp to http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de/5_0_fuer_Generationen/5_4_Wir_bauen_fuer_Generationen/5_4_1_Schieneninfrastruktur/Pontebbanaachse_Suedbahn/Koralmbahn/Wettmannstaetten__St._Andrae/index.jsp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 13:35, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on List of longest tunnels in the world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160208023451/http://cdm.unfccc.int/filestorage/z/4/R0BX9WPCSNKHQVUTI37E24A8YOZM16.pdf/Sichuan%20Xuecheng%20Hydropower%20Project%28clear%20version%29%20.pdf?t=Mnh8bnQ1N2NofDDMMDpZU98Wvug0iq9fFgy2 to http://cdm.unfccc.int/filestorage/z/4/R0BX9WPCSNKHQVUTI37E24A8YOZM16.pdf/Sichuan%20Xuecheng%20Hydropower%20Project%28clear%20version%29%20.pdf?t=Mnh8bnQ1N2NofDDMMDpZU98Wvug0iq9fFgy2

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 20:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Seikan Tunnel still longest railway tunnel?
Is the Seikan Tunnel still the "Longest railway tunnel excluding urban metro lines with intermediate stations" now that the Gotthard Base Tunnel has been completed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scotteaton92 (talk • contribs) 14:53, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Lengths are probably kilometers, not meters
Of all tunnels the lengths are expressed as a number with 1...3 digits before the decimal. Probably kilometers are stated. 29,900 m (18.6 mi) should obviously be 29,900 km (18.6 mi). One mile is 1609m not 1.609m. It is probably a bug in the convert script : \{\{convert|57091|m|mi|1|abbr=on}} which introduces a decimal point in the meter value. It should evaluate 57091m and not 57.091m. S k a t e b i k e r (talk) 18:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * In conventional English notation, "29,900 m" is twenty-nine thousand nine hundred metres, not twenty-nine point nine metres. So "29,900 m (18.6 mi)" is correct. I see from your home page that you're from Holland where (I'm guessing) "29,900 m" would be read as twenty-nine point nine metres. -- Hux (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

The convert template uses the convention of a decimal point "." and a comma "," for decimal grouping. see Decimal_mark. Scotteaton92 (talk) 20:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

"Second longest..."
An IP added this to the Channel Tunnel: "Second longest railway tunnel until Gotthard tunnel was opened." This is true, but not really notable. We do not list "second anything" in general, unless there is a particular reason. The IP's edit comment claimed to be reverting me -- so I assumed I had made a mistake -- but in fact the version I removed was a claim to be the longest. Just for the record. Imaginatorium (talk) 07:18, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

 * No harm in listing "second" especially since it was also the longest in the Western world, not just in England. This is also been the 2nd longest for about 20 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.178.163.8 (talk) 01:53, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on List of longest tunnels. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110710195319/http://www.ereninsaatas.com/site/t9.php to http://www.ereninsaatas.com/site/t9.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160129085315/http://www.mavitunel.com/ to http://www.mavitunel.com/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160202005914/http://www.bbt-se.com/en/did-you-know/ to http://www.bbt-se.com/en/did-you-know/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 02:27, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on List of longest tunnels. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160303204431/http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/hsc/snowy/civil.htm to http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/hsc/snowy/civil.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080619151552/http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/564.html to http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/564.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131125203754/http://stroitelstvo.info/show.php?storyid=2184583 to http://stroitelstvo.info/show.php?storyid=2184583

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:07, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Is this a contradiction?
Guangzhou Metro Line 3, at 57930 m, is listed as the "longest metro/rapid transit tunnel". Immediately below that, the Gotthard Base Tunnel, at 57104 m, is described as "...also the world's longest transit tunnel." Those statements can't both be true, can they? Or am I missing something? -- Hux (talk) 20:31, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

 * Just coincidentally cleared up the confusion of this before seeing your post! It's longest by geodetic distance which I've made more clear FlyingScotsman72 (talk) 06:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

How is "advanced planning stage" being defined?
It isn't clear to me what this is supposed to mean. For instance, the Taiwan Strait Tunnel Project is currently a member of this list, but the article states "The project is not considered viable due to a lack of interest from the Taiwanese, staggering costs and unsolved technical problems". I would have interpreted "advanced planning stage" as a project that is, at the very least, expected to obtain approval in the foreseeable future. Scleractinian (talk) 05:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Feel free to clean-up that section. In fact, several of the tunnels on the list are not actually at an advanced planning stage.--Jklamo (talk) 09:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of longest tunnels


text:
Talk:Reactive arthritis

Achilles Tendonitis
This can be pathognomonic for Reiter's Syndrome. Shouldn't it be added? 24.99.86.24 (talk) 21:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Have
Have put some info onto this page. It is now a stub, not a speedy - the subject is real, and important! --Janke | Talk 09:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Merged Reiter's syndrome article into this one. Reiter's is no longer an approved terminology, for two reasons, as mentioned in the article. Almost all the merge work was already done, fantastic editing! Since no one opposed the merge since November, I went ahead and did it. Thatcher131 15:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

"Repeated attacks over many years is common, and more than 40 percent of the patients end up with chronic and disabling arthritis, heart disease, diabetes or impaired vision" ... Citations for this? According to the sources I've found online only around 20% of patients develop chronic arthritis -- as the only complication. Of course heart disease, diabetes and impaired vision are all common age related diseases so specifics on where this information comes from is required for such a statement. (Steinn E. Sigurðarson, steinnes ..a.t. gmail.com, 23 May 2007)

but isn´t it more of a damage to the synovium primarily? Roenne 17:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * it was written: "spondyloarthropathy (autoimmune damage to the cartilages of joints)"

 * Could someone please review the information from http://wrongdiagnosis.com/r/reiter_s_syndrome/intro.htm and re-write this entry. I have Reiter's and can assure you that the entry at wrongdiagnosis.com is much more accurate as far as causality, initial symptoms, progression, organ involvement, and more. I would do it myself but my hands are the primary group of joints involved. The current wikipedia treatment leaves one with the impression that this is an active STD infection-induced disease whereas the current literature stresses the autoimmune reactive aspects left after an infection in gone, many times for years (perhaps decades in my case). Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joehodge (talk • contribs) 07:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Reason for name change
It is stated in the article that the name of the condition was changed for two reasons: 1) A trend not to use eponyms and 2) the relation of Reiter to Nazi concentration camp experiments. The article that suggested the name change in the medical journal Arthritis & Rheumatism only mentioned the 2nd reason, and even more stressed the importance of using eponyms when the physicians live an honourable life (or something of the sort). One of the authors, Engelman, was one of the ones to name the syndrome Reiter's in 1942. So the first statement is incorrect in this case (and I don't know of a situation where it truly applies, to the regret of many medical students). Elikarag (talk) 14:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

"Salmonella septicemia has been associated with subsequent infection of virtually every organ system.
 * sources for food-related disease causality*

Postenteritis reactive arthritis and Reiter's syndrome have also been reported to occur generally after 3 weeks. Reactive arthritis may occur with a frequency of about 2% of culture-proven cases. Septic arthritis, subsequent or coincident with septicemia, also occurs and can be difficult to treat."http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1.html and "Infections are associated with mucosal ulceration, rectal bleeding, drastic dehydration; fatality may be as high as 10-15% with some strains. Reiter's disease, reactive arthritis, and hemolytic uremic syndrome are possible sequelae that have been reported in the aftermath of shigellosis."http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap19.html U.S. F.D.A. Bad Bug Book - Foodborne Pathogenic Microorganisms and Natural Toxins Handbook --Joe Hodge (talk) 21:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)Joehodge

 * Not to get sucked into the discussion over who is good or who is not, but based on the Wikipedia naming conventions the Most commonly international name should be the correct and legitimate name. I see this name change was not contested on the grounds that it was emotional, but as an unbiased presentation of facts we have to maintain a neutral point of view and that can only be achieved by consensus. Can we put the name change up to vote instead of just changing it? Also the user who changed the name (the uaser above) has only a few edits and I am not sure has enough experience with the wikipedia to make such a change. Again I would automatically revert a name change of this magnitude but then again a few of the centers like Mayo Clinic have changed the name or adopted a change so we have a conflict between the dominant name, Reiter's and the politically prefered version, reactive arthritis. What do you think? Please reflect here or put up to vote for name change. Dr. Persi (talk) 07:43, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Fiddling with the page
Hey folks. I'm adding some citations where I know them and hopefully will be able to expand the article a bit. It's a pretty good article now, though, and mostly needs some stylistic work. If anyone has suggestions, I'm always happy to hear from people who know more than I do. --George (talk) 17:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Reiter sdr. vs reactive arthritis
Reiter syndrome is just one type of reactive arthritis, which consist of the clinical triade of : urethritis, conjunctivitis, arthritis. So, Reiter sdr. is included in the nosology of "reactive arthritis", but there is no equality between terms. Today, Reiter sdr. is a rare condition, vs reactive arthritis, which manifests not a full triade of Reiter sdr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vldscore (talk • contribs) 17:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Removed mnemonic...
mnemonics are for students to pass exams, and their use in wikipedia medical articles has been discouraged.lesion (talk) 22:54, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

picture on gonorrhea
why is there a picture of arthritis post-gonorrhea if Reiter's triad is characterized by Non-gonococchal urethritis? thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.11.44.152 (talk) 15:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Comorbidities
I propose to subsection the symptoms section by «Comorbidities». AXO NOV (talk) ⚑ 06:31, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Reactive arthritis


text:
Talk:Alexandra Eames

Untitled
I don't understand the older sister comment. Eames is pretty much just a yes-woman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.154.41 (talk) 09:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

"Multiple ex-husbands?"
I don't recall references to any of Eames's former husbands other than Joe, who was killed in the line of duty. In which episodes were her other husbands mentioned? eb 23:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * She didn't have any; there was only the one. -- Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû 21:33, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Father
. "Her father was a detective who was forcibly retired after being caught taking bribes." This is not true. He was caught "double-dipping" -- drawing a pension while still on NYC payroll. eb 02:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Detective Alexandra Eames - Kathryn Erbe.jpg
Image:Detective Alexandra Eames - Kathryn Erbe.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Eames' Badge Number
I have looked closely at numerous stills of Eames' badge (I have a particularly clear image from the episode "The Pilgrim") and am pretty certain that it is 5798 rather than the stated 3798. Cifan3681 16:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified one external link on Alexandra Eames. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes: When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071212033253/http://www.nbc.com/Law_%26_Order%3A_Criminal_Intent/bios/Det._Alexandra_Eames.shtml to http://www.nbc.com/Law_%26_Order%3A_Criminal_Intent/bios/Det._Alexandra_Eames.shtml

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 11:36, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Absences
F. P. S. Mad Hops

Diamond Dogs Unchained Saving Face Dollhouse Watch Wasichu Dramma Giocoso The Healer To the Bone The Good

Tru Love Maltese Cross Country Crossover Blasters Weeping Willow World’s Fair Flipped 30 Players Bombshell

Seeds Lonelyville Courtship Offense Senseless Contract Assassin Reunion Ten Count Neighborhood Watch Last Rites

Rock Star In Treatment Astoria Helen The Glory That Was… Salome in Manhattan Passion

Broad Channel Delicate Gods and Insects Abel and Willing Love Sick Love on Ice Traffic Disciple Lost Children of the Blood True Legacy The Mobster Will See You Now Palimpsest Inhumane Society Three-In-One Goojrr (talk) 03:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alexandra Eames


text:
Talk:Cliff Thorburn

Why ‘far right’?
No supporting evidence. 81.154.108.7 (talk) 00:44, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cliff Thorburn


text:
Bharatiya Pratiraksha Mazdoor Sangh

Bharatiya Pratiraksha Mazdoor Sangh (, literally "Indian Defence Workers Union", abbreviated BPMS) is a trade union in India, affiliated to the Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh, that organizes civilian workers in factories and other establishments under the Indian Ministry of Defence. The president is Dinesh Kumar and general secretary is Mukesh Singh.

title: Bharatiya Pratiraksha Mazdoor Sangh


text: Category:Trade unions in Indian Defence

title: Category:Trade unions in Indian Defence


text:
Talk:Robert Gordon Teather

explanation
I am reverting this edit for several reasons.

First, although it looks like a large change, almost all the changes were to the contents of the cite templates. As near as I can tell the actual fields of the cite templates aren't changed. Rather, while the fields were originally one per line, this edit put all fields on a single line.

Some contributors like to see cite templates where all the fields on a single line. Other contributors, like myself, like to see cite templates where all the fields each were on a line of their own.

While I like to see one field per line, I don't rewrite existing cite templates to conform to my preferred style, because doing so completely erodes the usefulness of diffs. This kind of editing makes articles look like they have undergone massive changes, when they have actually undergone trivial changes, or no changes whatsoever to how the article is rendered. And, it is just as disruptive when fans of templates where all the fields are on a single line rewrites templates in the format I prefer.

This edit introduced some very minor changes. Flawed changes, no offense. For instance, ships and vessels are close enough in meaning that it is redundant to refer to "Canadian Coast Guard ship vessels. Geo Swan (talk) 17:32, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

God father
Robert (bob) teather, and Susan teather where Clare Bellward Brawne's god parents and were asked by Hugh Brawne (Dale Bellward previously)

Mother Jody Ann Brawne. 2605:B100:93C:C342:81F6:E8CE:B804:88EB (talk) 02:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Robert Gordon Teather


text:
Silverdale School

Silverdale School is a coeducational secondary school and sixth form with academy status, in Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England. It is the founding school of Chorus Education Trust (formerly Silverdale Multi-Academy Trust). It opened in 1957 as a secondary modern school, and became a comprehensive school in 1969. It serves approximately 1,200 pupils from the local area, from ages 11 to 18. In 2004, Silverdale was placed 4th in Sheffield school performance exam league tables. In 2017, Silverdale students achieved the top A-level results of all state schools in the city. Recent Ofsted reports have placed the school in the good category, but placed the 6th form in outstanding, as of October 2022. This is a downgrade from the outstanding the school scored in 2014. In 2018, it was named the Sunday Times North State Secondary School of the Year. In 2020, it was named Top State School of the North for the Decade by the Sunday Times. The school converted to an academy school in January 2013.

New building
As part of the nationwide BSF programme (which aimed to see every secondary school in England rebuilt), Silverdale School has a new building. Construction began 6 months late on 26 March 2007 on the site of the old playing fields and opened on 7 January 2009. The scheme is a controversial private finance initiative, meaning ownership of the site has since transferred to Taylor Woodrow, who were named the preferred construction company in 2006. Besides constructing the new building and demolishing the old, Taylor Woodrow Facilities Management will rent the school to Sheffield City Council and other companies who can use its facilities for the next 25 years. After 25 years, the site and building ownership returns to Sheffield City Council.

Demolition of the old building began in February 2009. A new field and all weather sports pitch was built on the land.

Exam pass rate
In 2018 students taking GCSEs achieved a Progress 8 score of +0.67 which represents outstanding progress for students in all abilities in a broad range of subjects. This was the highest score for all secondary schools in South Yorkshire. In 2019 students taking GCSEs achieved a Progress 8 score of +0.58 which again represented outstanding progress.

In 2019 Silverdale was ranked in the top ten state secondary schools in the region, according to the Sunday Times. The school had been rated The Top State Secondary School in the North by the Sunday Times in 2018.

For A-level results, Silverdale Sixth Form has regularly achieved the highest results of all state schools in Sheffield (2017 and 2019); in 2018 it achieved the highest A-level progress score in the city.

Teaching School
Due to its Outstanding status, Silverdale was successful in establishing its own Teaching School, the Sheffield Teaching School Alliance (STSA), which works with over 50 schools locally to train new and existing teachers.

In 2017, due to its success in recruiting trainee teachers and the school's history as a language specialist school, it was chosen by the Department for Education to establish the National Modern Languages SCITT, a teacher training programme solely for modern languages.

In 2019 Silverdale was one of six chosen by the Department for Education to establish a Teaching School Hub to bring together the work of local teaching schools, particularly in helping struggling schools.

Notable former pupils

 * Michael Vaughan – Cricketer
 * Willie Williams – theatre designer and video director
 * Devon Van Oostrum – Basketball Player for Caja Laboral Baskonia
 * George Long – Goalkeeper for Millwall F.C
 * Robert Quinney – Director of Music and Organist, New College, Oxford
 * Vikram Barn (Vikkstar123) – YouTube personality, member of the group Sidemen
 * Cameron Dawson – Goalkeeper for Exeter City F.C.
 * Chris Wilder – Football Manager
 * Oliver Coppard - Mayor of South Yorkshire
 * James Handscombe OBE - Principal of Harris Westminster Sixth Form

title: Silverdale School