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The Great Silence

The Great Silence (Il grande silenzio) is a 1968 revisionist spaghetti Western film directed and co-written by Sergio Corbucci. An Italian-French co-production, the film stars Jean-Louis Trintignant, Klaus Kinski, Vonetta McGee (in her film début) and Frank Wolff, with Luigi Pistilli, Mario Brega, Marisa Merlini and Carlo D'Angelo in supporting roles.

Conceived by Corbucci as a politically-charged allegory inspired by the deaths of Che Guevara and Malcolm X, the film's plot takes place in Utah prior to the Great Blizzard of 1899. It pits a mute gunslinger (Trintignant), fighting in the defence of a group of outlaws and a vengeful young widow (McGee), against a group of ruthless bounty killers led by "Loco" (Kinski) and the corrupt banker Henry Pollicut (Pistilli). Unlike most films of the genre, which were filmed in the Almería province of Spain to double for areas such as Texas and Mexico, The Great Silence was primarily filmed on location in the Italian Dolomites.

Distributed in most territories by 20th Century Fox, The Great Silence was theatrically released to a mediocre commercial reception in Italy, but it fared better in other countries. Controversial for its bleak and dark tone, the film's reputation grew, and it gained a cult following in the wake of its release. The film was withheld from release in the United States until 2001, when it was made available on DVD by Fantoma Films and Image Entertainment; in Britain, it was first shown in 1990 on the BBC2 program Moviedrome.

Having received several theatrical re-releases, most notably in 2012 and 2017, The Great Silence is now widely regarded by fans and authorities on Spaghetti Westerns as one of the greatest films of the genre, and is acknowledged as Corbucci's masterpiece. Praise has gone to the acting, the utilization of snowbound landscapes, Ennio Morricone's score, and the film's subversion of several conventions of the Western film genre. Retrospective critics and scholars of Corbucci's Westerns have also deemed The Great Silence to be the second film in the director's "Mud and Blood" trilogy, which also includes Django (1966) and The Specialists (1969).

Plot
Henry Pollicut and two other bounty killers murder a man named Gordon and his wife. To prevent Gordon's son from giving them away, one of the killers slices the boy's throat, rendering him permanently mute. Pollicut becomes a corrupt Utah banker and judge of peace.

Years later in 1898, Gordon's son, now going by the moniker "Silence", operates on a principle whereby he provokes his enemies into drawing their weapons first so he can kill them in self-defense with his Mauser C96. A severe blizzard has swept the frontier, bringing privation to the town of Snow Hill. As a result, much of the community is forced to steal in order to survive. Pollicut, seeking to make a profit by attaining their property after they are killed, places prices on the thieves' heads, attracting the attention of a bounty killer gang led by "Loco". As they prey on the outlaws, Silence works with the bandits and their allies to fight against the killers.

One of the outlaws, James Middleton, leaves the safety of the group to be with his wife, Pauline. James is subsequently killed by Loco when he takes Pauline hostage. Vengeful, Pauline writes to Silence, requesting him to kill Loco. Meanwhile, the newly elected governor, hoping to have order maintained before declaring an amnesty regarding the outlaws, assigns the righteous but bumbling soldier Gideon Burnett as the sheriff of Snow Hill. On his way, Burnett encounters the outlaws, who steal his horse for food. After getting lost in the snow, he finds a stagecoach travelling to Snow Hill, on which he meets Silence, and later, Loco. Upon arrival, Silence meets Pauline, who promises to raise his reward.

Pauline attempts to sell her house to Pollicut, who demands that she becomes his mistress – his reason for putting a bounty on her husband. Pauline bitterly refuses. Silence leaves for the town saloon, and attempts to provoke Loco into drawing. Instead, Loco savagely beats him before Silence fights back. Angered, Loco attempts to shoot him, but he is stopped by Burnett, who arrests him for attempted murder and prepares to take him to a prison in Tonopah. Before leaving, Burnett requests that the townspeople provide food for the outlaws. Meanwhile, Pauline becomes romantically and sexually involved with Silence while tending his wounds.

Burnett and Loco stop by a frozen lake to allow Loco to relieve himself, but he springs a trap, shooting the ice surrounding Burnett and leaving him to die in the freezing water. Loco rides to his hideout and convinces the rest of his gang to confront Silence. Determined to take Pauline by force, Pollicut attempts to rape her as his henchman, Martin, tortures Silence by burning his right hand. Silence overpowers Martin and kills Pollicut. Loco and his gang arrive to look for Silence, just as the outlaws appear at the edge of town to collect the provisions, having been previously advised to do so by Burnett. Deciding to use them to draw out Silence, the gang herds the bandits into the saloon and captures Pauline. Loco tells Pauline to have Silence duel with him – if Silence wins, the outlaws will be set free; if he wins, they will be killed.

Despite Pauline's pleas that the duel is a trap, Silence stands outside the saloon. A killer shoots his left hand, greatly impairing his speed and marksmanship. Loco then stands in the doorway, ready to face the weakened Silence. As Silence begins reaching for his Mauser, Loco reaches for his Colt Single Action Army – but as Silence draws, another wounding shot is fired. Loco fires at Silence's head, killing him. Distraught, Pauline attempts to shoot Loco herself, but swiftly dies as well. The bounty killers turn their guns on the outlaws, massacring the entire group. As Loco and his men prepare to collect their bounties, he takes Silence's Mauser from Pauline's hands. The killers ride out of Snow Hill into the morning sun.

A title card explains that Loco's actions resulted in widespread public condemnation of bounty killing, and a memorial was erected in Snow Hill to honor those who died by his greed.

Happy ending
Due to the bleak nature of the original finale, Corbucci was obliged to shoot an alternate ending to appease his producers, who wanted the film to have a "seasonal" appeal due to its intended Christmas holiday release. Production histories of The Great Silence previously suggested that this "happy" ending was shot specifically for the North African and Asian markets, although there is no evidence to suggest that this ending was seen in either region. Some of the footage shot for this ending did, however, appear in the film's trailers. Because it was believed that no audio elements for this ending had survived, early DVD releases of the film, such as the American release from Fantoma Films, feature it without sound. Later releases, such as the Film Movement Blu-ray, include the ending with synchronized Italian audio.

In this ending, Loco draws his gun without waiting to be prompted by Silence. Suddenly, Burnett, having survived falling into the frozen lake, rides into town on horseback and shoots Loco in the head, allowing Silence to kill the remaining bounty killers. Burnett frees the outlaws as Pauline takes the bandages on Silence's burnt right hand off, revealing a gauntlet that he used for protection, before applying bandages to his wounded left hand. As Burnett takes the thieves to the local jail to await their amnesty, he asks Silence to become his deputy, which he accepts with a smile.

Ambiguous ending
Corbucci also delivered another, lesser-known ending to his producers. This version serves as a recut of the intended ending with additional footage not seen in the theatrical version. It was never publicly released until it was included among the special features of Film Movement's Blu-ray.

This ending depicts Silence being shot by Loco's henchman in both of his hands before he can draw his gun; wounded, he collapses to the ground as Pauline watches in shock. Appearing to show a change of heart, Loco gestures to his men to leave the saloon. As a result, the fates of Silence, Pauline and the outlaws are left unknown.

Analysis
In reviewing the alternate endings, film critic Simon Abrams believes that the producers' rejection of both of the above endings was justified, describing them as "emotionally dissatisfying conclusions for Corbucci's otherwise harrowing anti-fable". While finding the "ambiguous" ending's failures in its lack of answers for the fates of its characters, he considers the "happy" ending "amusing" due to its attempt to overhaul the film's pre-established tone. He also considers the latter to be of interest to fans of Sergio Leone's films due to Silence's gauntlet serving as a possible reference to Joe's use of a bullet-proof sheet of metal in A Fistful of Dollars.

Cast

 * Jean-Louis Trintignant as Gordon/"Silence" ("Silenzio" in the Italian version)
 * Loris Loddi as young Silence
 * Klaus Kinski as "Loco" ("Tigrero")
 * Vonetta McGee as Pauline Middleton
 * Frank Wolff as Sheriff Gideon Burnett (Corbett)
 * Luigi Pistilli as Henry Pollicut
 * Mario Brega as Martin
 * Carlo D'Angelo as the Governor of Utah
 * Marisa Merlini as Regina, the Saloon Madam (Régine)
 * Raf Baldassarre as Sanchez (Bobo Schultz)
 * Spartaco Conversi as Walter, Outlaw Leader
 * Remo De Angelis as Fake Sheriff in Flashback
 * Jacques Dorfmann as Miguel
 * Bruno Corazzari as Charlie (uncredited)

 Sources:

Development
By 1967, Sergio Corbucci had grown weary of making Westerns that varied widely in quality and commercial viability. Having returned to Rome after completing principal photography on the Eurospy film Death on the Run in Athens, he decided that another Western, set during a blizzard — reportedly an homage to two other "snow Westerns", André de Toth's Day of the Outlaw and John Ford's Cheyenne Autumn — would provide a similar change of pace. He had previously considered snowed-in valleys as the setting of Django, although the prior film took place in muddy conditions due to time and budget constraints. According to actor and producer Lars Bloch, this also gave Corbucci an opportunity to visit resorts within the Dolomites, thus allowing him to go on a skiing holiday while making a film. The project was a co-production between the Rome-based production company Adelphia Compagnia Cinematografica and the Paris-based studio Les Films Corona.

Casting English-speaking lead actors in Spaghetti Westerns was a growing practice because it was believed to allow international marketability. Marcello Mastroianni had conceived the idea of a mute gunfighter when he told Corbucci that he had always wanted to appear in a Western, but would have been held back by his inability to speak English. When Corbucci first met Jean-Louis Trintignant, who was hired for the leading role of the film by Les Films Corona after it was turned down by Franco Nero (who had previously played the title character of Django), he learned that Trintignant did not speak English either. To bypass the need for an English-speaking lead, Corbucci decided to turn Trintignant's character into a mute. At the time, Trintignant was known for his role in the critically acclaimed romantic drama A Man and a Woman, and is believed to have accepted the role in support of co-producer Robert Dorfmann, who was a friend of his. Silence was his only role in a Spaghetti Western.

Casting
Corbucci hired established German actor Klaus Kinski to play Loco, a character who was partially intended to emulate Gorca, the vampire played by Boris Karloff in Mario Bava's Black Sabbath, which served as a major stylistic influence on The Great Silence. Other cast members were established character actors in or outside the Spaghetti Western genre, including Luigi Pistilli, Mario Brega, Marisa Merlini, Raf Baldassare, Carlo D'Angelo, Spartaco Conversi and Bruno Corazzari (an actor often compared to Kinski). Frank Wolff, usually known for playing serious or villainous characters, was cast against type in the semi-comical role of Sheriff Burnett. Vonetta McGee, a then-unknown pre-law San Francisco State College dropout and amateur actress who had moved to Rome to find work at Cinecittà, was cast as Pauline in her first film role. After appearing in Corbucci's film and Luigi Magni's Faustina, McGee was invited to return to America by Sidney Poitier, where she became a major actress in the blaxploitation genre. Alex Cox later cast her as Marlene in his film Repo Man based on her performance as Pauline.

Filming
Location filming began in late 1967 in Cortina d'Ampezzo (Veneto) and San Cassiano in Badia (South Tyrol). Several Snow Hill scenes were shot on a set specifically built for the film, with log cabins and alpine roofs. Many of the surrounding hills were used for various set-pieces, including Loco's gang's hideout, the way station, the stagecoach route and the Snow Hill graveyard. According to his autobiography Kinski Uncut, Kinski had an on-set affair with actress "Sherene Miller" during the Cortina shoot, while his wife Brigitte and daughter Nastassja enjoyed sledding in the snow. Production then moved to southern areas of Italy; Silence's flashback to his childhood was shot at Bracciano Lake, near Manziana in Lazio. The Elios Film town set in Rome, which had previously been used by Corbucci in Django, was used for several Snow Hill scenes (including the final duel).

Most of the Snow Hill scenes filmed at Elios were shot at night so that the fake "snow" looked more convincing; 26 tons of shaving cream was used to give the street a snowbound look. For the daylight scenes, the Elios set was swathed in fog, to disguise the fact that the surrounding countryside had no snow. Camera overexposure was also occasionally used to avoid continuity errors. The film's costumes were designed by Enrico Job (the husband of director Lina Wertmüller), and were influenced by hippie fashion styles, including mufflers, shawls, and outfits made of fur and leather; Corbucci was known for standing heavily against the hippie subculture. Like other Spaghetti Westerns, the film was shot without direct sound to allow for post-production dubbing in multiple languages; to further accommodate this, Corbucci claimed that he would often direct actors to perform in "numerological diction", a technique also used by Federico Fellini, which required actors to count off numbers in their native language instead of performing lines.

According to McGee, Corbucci was "the nicest man" during production, and "never tried to put the make on" her. The actress attributed this to the frequent presence of his wife Nori on the set, noting that "they were such a happy couple. They made it a great environment to work in." However, at one point while filming, Wolff had to be restrained from strangling Kinski when the latter insulted his Jewish heritage by telling him "I don't want to work with a filthy Jew like you; I'm German and hate Jews." Following the incident, Wolff refused to speak to Kinski unless required to by the script. Kinski later declared that he insulted Wolff because he wanted to help him get into character.

The Great Silence was one of several Spaghetti Westerns produced between 1967 and 1968, along with Enzo G. Castellari's Kill Them All and Come Back Alone and One Dollar Too Many, Sergio Sollima's Run, Man, Run and Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West, to be showcased in Patrick Morin's made-for-television documentary Western, Italian Style. During the making of the film, Corbucci and Trintignant were interviewed; Corbucci discussed the nature of violence in his films and Spaghetti Westerns in general (comparing the use of violence in such films to the James Bond franchise), while Trintignant spoke of the unusual nature of his role and how he would practice drawing his gun – by pulling a sock (substituting for the gloves Silence wears in the film) off his hand and reaching for a long-stemmed artichoke in his pocket.

Post-production
Following the film's completion, The Great Silence was, as per standard procedure for a Spaghetti Western, edited in its final, completed form and dubbed into five languages: Italian, French, Spanish, German and English. Subtitled versions were created for foreign markets outside of the dubbed versions. The English-language version was written by John Davis Hart and Lewis E. Ciannelli (the son of Eduardo Ciannelli) and recorded at Via Margutta Studios in Rome under Ciannelli's direction. Among the voice actors for the English version were Carolyn De Fonseca, Edward Mannix, Ted Rusoff and Mel Welles.

Although Hart and Ciannelli's dub script remains relatively faithful to the original Italian dialogue, the meaning of numerous lines and scenes were changed; Ciannelli in particular frequently embellished the dialogue of films in the dubbing stage, such as Arizona Colt. Much of the dialogue concerning the outlaws, such as a remark made by Walter, the leader of the bandits, about their forthcoming amnesty, as well as Loco's conversation with Burnett about the morality of the thieves, were rewritten to imply that most of the outlaws were being persecuted not simply because of their poverty, but for also practising Mormonism. Several of the characters' names were also changed from Corbucci's originals, for example, "Tigrero" became "Loco", "Sheriff Gideon Corbett" changed to "Sheriff Gideon Burnett", and "Bobo Schultz" was renamed "Sanchez".

Film historian Howard Hughes suggests that, despite the implications of a large budget as a result of an international cast, as well as elaborate set and costume designs, there are several aspects that suggest otherwise. These include several continuity errors and revealing mistakes present throughout the film, and a variance in the quality of the film stock. In comparison to the Technicolor/Techniscope presentation most Spaghetti Westerns were filmed in, The Great Silence was filmed in the standard European widescreen format and printed in Eastmancolor.

Character and environment subversion
The Great Silence has been interpreted by various film critics and historians as a subversion of various conventions of the Western film genre. Corbucci, who made his left-wing views either the subtext or subject of several of his films, wrote the film's story as an allegory highlighting the corruptions stemming from authoritarian forms of capitalism, which are personified by the sadistic, greedy bounty killers led by Loco (who use the bounties to fuel their desires for violence and money while acting under the law), as well as the schemes of the banker Pollicutt. This is partially in line with the "Classical Plot" of both American Westerns (such as Shane) and certain Spaghetti Westerns (such as A Fistful of Dollars), in which, according to Will Wright, a "lone stranger rides into a troubled town and cleans it up, winning the respect of the townsfolk and the love of the schoolmarm." As a result of his sympathetic portrayal of the outlaws and the demoniac characterization of the people who hunt them, Corbucci's presentation of bounty killers is far more negative than such figures in Sergio Leone's films – the closing title card of The Great Silence contrasts with the opening title card of For a Few Dollars More.

A key aspect of the film that differentiates its stylistic choices from other Westerns is its setting – a snow-bound Utah that contrasts with the desert plains seen in most Western films, American or Italian. The bleakness of the winter landscape complements the dark and pessimistic tone of the film, while providing motivation for the characters, as the living conditions and chances of survival are made more dire. The snowy backdrop isolates the events of the story by providing very little visible geographical detail, and "fair metaphors for the enclosed, cruel world herein" are created.

Subversion of protagonist
In his analysis of the film, Donato Totaro compares Silence to other Spaghetti Western protagonists, and analyses him in Freudian terms – he is dressed in black (like Corbucci's previous creation, Django), is extremely fast and accurate with his gun, and is anti-heroic, sharing some of his characteristics with Loco (both will kill other people on the grounds that they will receive payment). However, unlike other "strong and silent" Spaghetti Western characters, such as Django or Joe from A Fistful of Dollars, Silence is completely mute, giving him a sense of vulnerability and sensitivity. In contrast to the Colt Single Action Army revolvers used by his fellow Spaghetti Western protagonists and the other characters in the film, Silence's choice of weapon is a semi-automatic Mauser C96 – its rapid rate of fire gives him an unfair advantage over his opponents, therefore his marksmanship comes in part from technological, not physical, prowess. Like Django and Joe before him, Silence's hands are injured prior to the climax, greatly impeding his marksmanship. However, a further link to the bounty killers he fights is established – due to his throat being cut by their kind, Silence frequently shoots the thumbs of his enemies off, rendering them unable to use a gun. Also, unlike Django and Joe, neither his will to survive nor his advanced weaponry can save Silence in the final duel against Loco. The latter then delivers a "symbolic castration", as described by James Newton, upon the hero by taking the Mauser for himself after killing him.

Pauline's role
The Great Silence, as with many of Corbucci's Westerns, is known for its depictions of strong-willed female characters, namely the mother of the young outlaw Miguel (who requests Silence to kill Loco's compatriot Charlie), Regina, the saloon madam who Sherriff Burnett falls for, and Pauline. Because she seeks vengeance for the death of her husband through Silence, falls for him through shared pain and loneliness, and supports him until they are both killed by Loco, Pauline plays a vital part in the film's narrative. She is also shown to be readily in control of her sexuality, as seen in her refusals to become Pollicut's mistress and her seduction of Silence as she tends to his wounds. Pauline is also African-American, and her interracial love scene with Silence has been seen as highly subversive, both in the context of Western films and commercial cinema as a whole. Corbucci later commented:

Deaths of protagonists
The deaths of Silence, Pauline and the outlaws at the hands of Loco and his gang are a culmination of the subversive elements of The Great Silence and its anti-authoritarian stance. Killing sympathetic or leading characters was not a new tactic to Corbucci – the title character of his second Western, Minnesota Clay, was seemingly killed at the end of the film's American prints. However, the political context of the later film plays a major factor in the presentation of its thematic concerns: when interviewed by the German magazine Film, Corbucci revealed that he had dedicated The Great Silence to the memories of Che Guevara, Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy, as he believed that their assassinations (all three happening while he was making the film) served to further their causes and resulted in widespread condemnations of violence. Alex Cox elaborates:

Corbucci's widow, Nori, told [producer] Katsumi Ishikuma that her husband had the deaths of [Guevara] and Malcolm X in mind when he conceived The Great Silence ... For the radical, for the revolutionary, both deaths were terrible news. You could only take on the powerful and the wicked for a short while, it seemed, before they crushed you.

In contrast to the deaths of leading characters in similarly countercultural films of the time, such of Ben, Duane Jones' character in Night of the Living Dead, and Wyatt and Billy (Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper) in Easy Rider, in which said characters are killed by members of similarly disenfranchised groups, the bounty killers are working as part of the State, acting in the service of capital by helping to protect it. What further separates the deaths of the heroes and the anti-authoritarian position of The Great Silence from Romero and Hopper's films is that, unlike Night of the Living Dead and Easy Rider, which were produced without the restrictions of well-established genre conventions, Corbucci's film also subverts and comments on the genre that it is part of; in contrast to the relatively rare circumstances of the face-to-face gunfight at the O.K. Corral — which provided the primary template for cinematic depictions of Old West duels — actual shootouts of the era tended to closer resemble ambushes like the one committed by Loco and his gang. Donato Totaro states that the film's title "is rich in possible meaning, suggestive not only of the great white expansive snow, the lead character's muteness, but the late 1960s political defeats that impacted Corbucci's mood that led him to make one of the grimmest Westerns ever made".

Cox believes that the moral message of the film is that "sometimes, even though you know you'll fail, you still do the right thing". He also adds that by facing an unbeatable foe and dying in the ensuing duel, Silence "becomes the noblest hero of any Western film since Shane".

Soundtrack
The Great Silence's soundtrack was composed by Ennio Morricone, Corbucci's frequent musical collaborator since Navajo Joe, and conducted by Bruno Nicolai. A melancholic, emotive score, Morricone personally viewed it as his best Spaghetti Western soundtrack aside from his compositions for Sergio Leone. The soundtrack was released on CD, also containing five tracks from Morricone's score for That Splendid November, in 1995, 2005 and 2014. A limited edition LP (consisting of 500 copies) was released by Dagored in April 2016.

In reviewing Morricone's score for Electric Sheep Magazine, Robert Barry expressed that the compositions of the film eschew "the soaring heroic melodies and pounding horse-hoof rhythms of the Leone films" and that the music closely resembles Morricone's own 1970s horror film soundtracks, Florian Fricke's music for Werner Herzog's films, and modernist compositions by Luciano Berio and Pierre Boulez. He also noted that solo violins (playing fifth intervals) and flutes are used in creating Wagnerian leitmotifs to highlight Silence's conflict within the society he is placed in.

In reviewing Morricone's soundtrack for CineAction, Mark Lager described how "The celeste and choir of Silence’s theme (“Restless”) and the trilling flutes of his painful childhood scar show his status as an eternal outsider and wanderer as he drifts through the snowy forest and mountain scenery. The diabolical cackle of the trumpets shows the sinister sneer of bounty hunter Loco (Klaus Kinski) as he guns down his hapless victims. The soaring strings in this score are only present during the love making (“Invito all’Amore”) of Pauline (Vonetta McGee) and Silence (Jean-Louis Trintignant)—a striking scene for its time in its presentation of interracial romance. The strings are otherwise dirgelike and funereal—summoning an existential emptiness of facing the infinite void in the climax (“L’Ultimo Gesto”). “Voci Nel Deserto” is a haunting and sorrowful prayer for the dead: a requiem for the lost lives of 1968."

Subsequent music covers and samples
The Russian progressive rock band Little Tragedies, the Hungarian band Yesterdays and the Italian group N.O.T. (Noise Overtones Therapy) composed and performed 20-minute pieces based on the film, titled The Voice of Silence, Suite Pauline and Epilogo respectively, as part of the Colossus Project, a musical project set up by the Finnish Progressive Music Association to encourage bands and musical artists to musically interpret the film and other Spaghetti Westerns. The songs were released on the album The Spaghetti Epic Volume Three – The Greatest Silence.

Morricone's music was sampled and remixed by Thievery Corporation for the album Morricone Rmx. The grindcore band Cripple Bastards released an album with the film's Italian title. Anima Morte also recorded a version of the main theme for the 2010 compilation album Cani Arrabbiati – Opening Themes ... A Tribute.

Release
The Great Silence was released in Italy in November 1968. Due to its graphic violence, the film was awarded an 18 rating in Italy, limiting its domestic box office returns. It performed better in the French and West German markets, largely due to the presence of Trintignant and Kinski. It has been reported that during a screening of the film in Sicily one audience member fired a gun at the screen in anger over the film's ending. The film was released in France on 27 January 1969. In Japan, The Great Silence received a theatrical re-release alongside another Corbucci film, Sonny & Jed, through Cable Hogue and PSC in 1995 as part of a "Spaghetti Western Revival" event.

Proposed remake and English release
When The Great Silence was screened for Darryl F. Zanuck of 20th Century Fox to see whether the film could be released on the American market, he was offended by the film (to the point where he reportedly swallowed the cigar he was smoking in shock upon watching the ending), and refused to distribute it in the United States. 20th Century Fox did, however, distribute the film in Italy and several other markets. The company also considered a remake of the film starring Clint Eastwood, which eventually evolved into a largely unrelated project by Universal Pictures, Joe Kidd.

The Great Silence made its British premiere on BBC2's Moviedrome block on August 26, 1990, under the title of The Big Silence, where the film was introduced by Alex Cox. Under license from the film's current exhibition rights holder, Beta Film, its first US theatrical release took place in 2012, when an English-dubbed 35 mm film print owned by Swiss film library Kinemathek Le Bon Film was toured in cinema screens across the country. A German-dubbed, English-subtitled print was also screened from November 14 to 25 that same year at the Brisbane International Film Festival.

Following initial screenings at the Festival du Nouveau Cinema, beginning on October 4, 2017, Film Movement announced on October 21 that they had acquired all North American distribution rights to The Great Silence, resulting from a deal that had been brokered between the distributor's president, Michael E. Rosenberg, and Oliver Bachert of Beta Film. The announcement revealed that the film would receive a theatrical re-release in North American theatres, followed by a release on Blu-ray Disc and digital formats. Regarding the acquisition, Rosenberg commented "Following our experiences releasing Time To Die in the States for the very first time, we’re excited to sidle up to bring yet another restored classic western to North American moviegoers, certain to be thrilled by Corbucci’s masterful dark vision". The film began screening in American cinemas on November 12, 2017, at the Winchester Alamo Drafthouse Cinema, utilizing a 2K restoration of the original negative created by Compass Film SRL. Between April 1 and September 27, 2018, the film earned $53,074 from its North American theatrical run.

Home media release
Fantoma Films and Image Entertainment released The Great Silence on DVD on September 4, 2001, with their release being the film's first appearance on the American market. The release used an English-language print that was digitally remastered by Zoetrope Aubry Productions, presented in 1.66:1 letterboxed widescreen, with the only audio option being a Dolby Digital Mono mix of the English dub. The DVD's special features consist of a video introduction to the film by Alex Cox, the alternative happy ending (with optional commentary by Cox), and the English version of the film's trailer. Fantoma reissued the disc on January 27, 2004. Glenn Erickson felt that the transfer on Fantoma's DVD was "reasonable but not great" due to the transfer having washed-out colours despite being clean from damage. Erickson also felt that the English dub "still plays as artificial and false, and detracts mightily from Kinski's performance" despite praising the voice acting itself.

In the UK, Digital Classics also released their first DVD of the film in 2004; this release includes the English dub alongside the Italian track with English subtitles, the trailer and the alternative happy ending, but lacks Cox's introduction and commentary. Australian distributor Beyond Home Entertainment's release is identical to Digital Classics' initial release. Digital Classics later issued a second DVD of the film, using an anamorphic widescreen transfer, featuring both the English and Italian tracks, English subtitles and the special features from Fantoma's DVD.

On February 6, 2013, TC Entertainment released The Great Silence on Blu-ray Disc in Japan, using a 1080i, AVC-encoded high-definition transfer of an Italian print and DTS-HD Mono mixes of the Italian, English and Japanese dubs. This release includes the alternative happy ending, the English opening and credits, English and German theatrical trailers, a subtitled interview with Nori Corbucci, a text-based historical overview of bounty hunting and illustrated liner notes as special features. Reviewing the disc for ''Rock! Shock! Pop!'', Ian Jane criticized the disc for the poor quality of its transfer, stating that it "doesn't offer much of an upgrade over that older DVD release at all", and expressed that the film deserved a better high-definition treatment.

German distributor AL!VE re-released the film with remastered, high-definition video and audio (with options for German, Italian and French) on Blu-ray and DVD on December 8, 2017. Their releases include the alternative happy ending, trailers, an audio commentary by filmmaker Mike Siegel, an alternative German "grindhouse" version of the film, several featurettes and image galleries, and a liner notes booklet.

Following their theatrical release, Film Movement released The Great Silence on Blu-ray and DVD in the US and Canada on June 5, 2018. Presenting the film using with the same 2K restoration from the theatrical run, the disc includes Italian LPCM Mono (with optional English subtitles) and English Dolby Digital Mono audio options. Extras include "Cox on Corbucci", a featurette in which Cox discusses the film and its significance in the context of Corbucci's career, the documentary Western, Italian Style, the alternative happy ending (with optional commentary by Cox) and the previously-unreleased "ambiguous" recut of the ending, both with restored audio, original and re-release theatrical trailers, and a liner notes booklet featuring "Ending the Silence", an essay about the film by Simon Abrams. Film Movement's release received positive notices from DoBlu.com, DVD Compare, ''Rock! Shock! Pop! and Slant Magazine'', whose reviewers singled out the video, Italian audio and extras for praise, while deeming the English dub to have been handled with less attention.

British distributor Eureka Entertainment released the film on Blu-ray as the 257th entry in its Masters of Cinema series on November 22, 2021. Presented in a 2K restoration with Italian and English audio options (with English subtitles for the former), this release includes three audio commentaries: one with author Howard Hughes and filmmaker Richard Knew, another with Siegel, and a third with Cox. Other special features include both alternative endings, Western, Italian Style, the "Cox on Corbucci" featurette from Film Movement's release, a new interview with Radical Frontiers in the Spaghetti Western: Politics, Violence and Popular Italian Cinema author Austin Fisher, trailers and image galleries. The initial print run of 3000 copies of the disc also includes a slipcase, a reversible poster, four facsimiles of promotional lobby cards from the film's original release, and a liner notes booklet featuring essays by Hughes.

4K restoration
In March 2017, the Cinémathèque Française reported that Cineteca Nazionale, with the cooperation of Italian distribution rights holder Movietime, had authorised a complete restoration of The Great Silence (including the alternative ending) from the original camera and sound negatives in 4K resolution. The restoration was carried out at the film laboratories Augustus Color and Studio Cine in Rome.

Critical reception
The Great Silence has a 100% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, based on eleven reviews with an average rating of 8.5 out of 10. It has been widely acclaimed by critics and audiences, and has appeared on numerous lists of the best Spaghetti Western films compiled by audiences, filmmakers and historians. Alongside Django, it is usually regarded as Corbucci's best film and one of the best Spaghetti Westerns not to be directed by Sergio Leone. A contemporary review of The Great Silence in the French newspaper Le Populaire described Corbucci as "an excellent creator of atmosphere and a director perfectly at ease with actors: Klaus Kinski [...] is excellent here".

Time Out gave the film a mostly positive review, writing, "While Django remains the erratic Corbucci's best picture, this slightly later spaghetti Western does well by an inventive set-up [...] between the bullets there's engaging stuff from the two stars and an unmistakable chill in the air". Film critic Leonard Maltin praised the film, awarding it 3 1/2 out of a possible 4 stars. In his review he wrote that The Great Silence is a "brutal, bleakly beautiful spaghetti Western filmed on stark locations in the Dolomites, with one of the most uncompromising and unforgettable finales ever filmed". Kyle Anderson of Nerdist News described the film as Corbucci's "most artful and daring" Western, one that "pushes the genre to new levels and creates a story unlike anything people were used to, even though it's likely more historically accurate". He concluded his review by stating that "If you're looking for a good time on a Saturday night, I'd say this movie is not what you want, but if you're looking for a dark, violent, thoughtful, and well-made film, look no further".

Glenn Erickson of DVD Talk spoke less enthusiastically about the film, but felt that it was a good Spaghetti Western nonetheless. Although praising the locations, as well as the performances of Kinski and Trintignant, Morricone's score, the realistic approach to the story and Silvano Ippoliti's cinematography, he felt that the characterizations were lacking, adding that Corbucci's direction often "drifts and falters" and lacks the "operatic grandeur" of Leone's films. Erickson also expressed that the film's ending was unsurprising given the nihilistic nature of the rest of the film, but noted that he would have been more shocked by it had he seen the film upon its 1968 theatrical release.

In his analysis of the Spaghetti Western genre, Alex Cox described The Great Silence as Corbucci's "tightest, most relentless Western; his best and his bleakest. It's shot in his trademark messy, over-edited, jerky-zoom style, and its telephoto close-ups are frequently out of focus. Yet it is incredibly beautiful". He voiced praise for Ippoliti's strategy of "shooting through things" (a marked improvement over his work on Navajo Joe), the tight script, the strong female characters and the tragic nature of the ending, rooted in Corbucci's pessimism towards the deaths of radical political leaders. Performance-wise, he described Sheriff Burnett and Regina, the film's equivalent of the "cute/funny" characters that had appeared in Corbucci's earlier Westerns, as "tolerable" due to their senses of dark humour and morality, and praised McGee, Pistilli and Brega's acting. Cox also felt that Kinski's Loco was the actor's finest appearance in a Western, and that Trintignant's performance, which might have seemed doll-like in the hands of actors such as Franco Nero, John Phillip Law and Terence Hill, was pulled off "flawlessly. His character's moral quandary, and decision to sacrifice himself, are perfectly conveyed". Noting that Corbucci seemed proud of The Great Silence – "a great work, a great Spaghetti Western, a great Western, a classic of transgressive cinema" – Cox believes that Zanuck's withholding of the international release and its poor domestic performance were key factors in the decline in quality of Corbucci's output following its release.

Reception of US theatrical run
During its North American 2017-2018 theatrical run, The Great Silence received enthusiastic notices from several reviewers, who tended to note its influence on Tarantino's work. The New York Times' A. O. Scott felt that the film's "brazen mixing of incompatible elements that defies categorization, imitation or even sober critical assessment. It's anarchic and rigorous, sophisticated and goofy, heartfelt and cynical", and expressed that despite its influence, "this plate of pasta — bitter and pungent, nourishing and perhaps a bit nauseating — should be savored on its own". Simon Abrams, writing for The Village Voice felt that the ending "still hurts so good a half-century later", while Kenneth Turan of Los Angeles Times noted the film's subversive qualities, and particularly praised the opening sequence and McGee's "affecting" performance, concluding that "nothing works out the way these [characters], not to mention audiences who love classic Hollywood westerns, expect. Not even close". Eric Monder of Film Journal International praised the film in its entirety, particularly its political themes and cinematography, as well as the chemistry between Trintignant and McGee and the 2K restoration, which he felt was "so crisp, the production looks like it was finished yesterday".

Accolades
Shared with Cold Water, Honeysuckle Rose, The Docks of New York and The Changeling, the film won the Best Rediscoveries Award at the 2018 Boston Society of Film Critics Awards following its screening at the Brattle Theatre.

Influence
The Great Silence has influenced the works of Quentin Tarantino. Describing the film as his favorite "snow Western", he has paid homage to it in Django Unchained and The Hateful Eight. Robert Richardson, the cinematographer for The Hateful Eight, noted that he and Tarantino studied The Great Silence's photography to get an understanding of the intimacy Tarantino wanted to achieve in the film. Upon being asked what his favorite Western films were, Richardson responded with "I do love The Great Silence, because Quentin turned me on to it and I love the cinematic nature of that, in the snow. But I'm going with Peckinpah's The Wild Bunch if I've got to pick one".

title: The Great Silence


text:
Mỹ Tho

Mỹ Tho is a city in the Tiền Giang province in the Mekong Delta region of South Vietnam. It has a population of approximately 169,000 in 2006 and 220,000 in 2012. It is the regional center of economics, education and technology. The majority ethnic group is the Kinh; minority groups include the Hoa, the Cham and the Khmer people. Boat rides on the Mỹ Tho River are popular with tourists, and the city is known for hủ tiếu Mỹ Tho, a type of rice noodles soup.

History
Mỹ Tho was founded in the 1680s by Chinese refugees fleeing China after the fall of remnants of the Southern Ming to the Qing dynasty in 1683. The city is named after the Mỹ Tho River. In chữ Hán, the name is given as (literally, beautiful tree).

Due to its proximity to Saigon, Mỹ Tho was the traditional gateway to the Mekong Delta. In the 17th century, the city had become one of the biggest commercial hubs in today's Southern Vietnam.

In the 1860s, Mỹ Tho, along with Saigon, was a major strategic city during the French colonial campaign towards Vietnam. In 1862, France's capture of Mỹ Tho is regarded as the conclusion to the establishment of the French colony of Cochinchina, a development that inaugurated nearly a century of French colonial dominance in Vietnam. During the colonization period, the economy continued to prosper, attracting more immigrants, mainly from Teochew and Minnan of mainland China.

Mỹ Tho City is recognized as a grade II on October 7, 2005.

Administrative divisions
Mỹ Tho is divided to 11 wards (called Ward 1 - Ward 10, and Ward Tân Long) and 6 communes.

6 communes:
 * Đạo Thạnh
 * Mỹ Phong
 * Phước Thạnh
 * Tân Mỹ Chánh
 * Thới Sơn
 * Trung An
 * Phước Thạnh

Transportation

Mỹ Tho is connected to the rest of the country by National Route 1 and Tiền River. Here, people mainly use motorcycles, bicycles, and boats for transportation. Mỹ Tho has the first railway route (about 70 km long) in Vietnam which was one of the most modern transport means in the world linking Saigon and Mỹ Tho, put into use in 1885. However, it was destroyed in the 1960s during Vietnam War.

By road, Mỹ Tho City is 70 km from Vĩnh Long province, 70 km from Ho Chi Minh City, regional center of Southern Vietnam, 103 km from Cần Thơ, 179 km from Châu Đốc, 182 km from Rạch Giá, 132 km from Long Xuyên. Mỹ Tho and Bến Tre are connected by Rạch Miễu Bridge.

By river, there are many short boat trips to various islands, Bến Tre, and floating markets in the surrounding areas. It also has overnight long boats to Châu Đốc and Long Xuyên.

Tourism

Vĩnh Tràng Temple, Cao Dai Temple, Dong Tam Snake Farm. There are four islands in the Tien River between Mỹ Tho and Bến Tre: Dragon (Con Rong), Tortoise (Con Qui), Phoenix (Con Phung) and Unicorn (Con Lan) Islands.

The Mekong Delta is considered to be the "rice basket of Vietnam", contributing more than half of the nation's rice production. Mỹ Tho is well known as floating markets, where people sell and buy things on the river, as well as Ben Tam Ngua and Mỹ Thuận market.

Education
Mỹ Tho was the first town in southern Vietnam to have a high school. The Collège de Mỹ Tho, opened in March 1879, is now called Nguyễn Đình Chiểu High School. It was one of the first schools Vietnam had, and even now is still known for its education quality among Southern schools.

Later, another school called "School for Gifted Students of Tien Giang" opened in Mỹ Tho city. Though the total area is very limited compared to other schools in the province, the quality of education there is usually considered one of the best. The curriculum they use is modified so that students usually learn more of their core subjects than in other schools. For instance, students from a Math class do all the required materials like any other classes, but more of Chemistry, Biology, and Physics because they are in the Natural Science block, and a lot more of Math. Preparation for national exams and entrance examination to the university are prioritized there.

Schools in Mỹ Tho are named after famous Vietnamese writers, poets, and national heroes such as Nguyễn Trãi, Thu Khoa Huan is also known as Nguyen Huu Huan, Xuân Diệu, Lê Ngọc Hân, Nguyễn Đình Chiểu, Trần Hưng Đạo.

Tiền Giang College which was promoted to Tiền Giang University in 2005 is also located at Mỹ Tho.

Economy
Today the economy of Mỹ Tho is mainly based on tourism, fishing, and agricultural products such as coconuts, bananas, and longans.

During World War II the French Vichy government interned foreign nationals in Mỹ Tho. In May 1945, the Japanese seized control of the camps fearing an allied attack. Foreign nationals were confined throughout the war. As the regional capital, Mỹ Tho is the main market dealing in all the produce from the region as well as fish and other seafood from Mỹ Tho's large ocean-going fishing fleet. The very large and exuberant market is one of South Vietnam's biggest sources for dried fish and other dried seafood products such as Kho Muc (dried squid). At night the market is dedicated to the dealing and sorting of Mekong River fish, particularly catfish for Hồ Chí Minh City's wholesale markets. Produce, especially fruit and vegetables, is delivered by boat directly to markets. It is a popular starting point for tourists to take a boat trip on the Mekong River.

Mỹ Tho was the subject of "The Lesson", a chapter in a memoir by Tobias Wolff, In Pharaoh's Army: Memories of the Lost War, describing the events of the 1968 Tet Offensive there.

In 2010, there are total 17 markets located in wards and commune in Mỹ Tho.

Neighbouring cities

 * West and North: Chợ Gạo District
 * East: Châu Thành District, Tiền Giang
 * South: Tiền River and Bến Tre province

Notable people

 * Nguyễn Thị Thập - Chairman of the Women's Federation of Vietnam (Hội liên hiệp phụ nữ Việt Nam) from 1956 to 1974
 * General Nguyễn Khánh - former Prime Minister, General, and Ambassador of South Vietnam
 * General Nguyễn Hữu Hạnh - served in the Army of the Republic of Vietnam
 * Madame Thiệu, the last serving First Lady of South Vietnam from 1967 to 1975 and wife of the President of South Vietnam Nguyễn Văn Thiệu
 * Trần Anh Hùng – film director and screenwriter

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Mỹ Tho


text: Category:Seaside resorts

title: Category:Seaside resorts


text:
So Cal Scorpions

The So Cal Scorpions were a semi-pro women's American football team based in San Diego, California. In 2011, they played in the Women's Football Alliance after five seasons in the defunct Women's Professional Football League, The ownership brought the team to a spring league. Independent Women's Football League. Home games were most recently played at Balboa Stadium.

History
In 2003 the So Cal Scorpions began their inaugural season in the city of Temecula, in Riverside County, as the first professional sports team in this city and county. They moved to the city of San Diego in 2004, where other professional sports teams are based.

In 2007, the SoCal Scorpions unveiled a new spread, no huddle offense similar to the one run by several Division I Colleges under 32 year old rookie head coach Dan Tovar. The So Cal Scorpions were winners of the National Championship in the WPFL for the 2007 season largely behind this new pro style offense and the return of their already stellar defense. The Scorpions entered the playoffs as the final seed in their division after compiling a 6–2 record. Two of their six victories were over the three-time defending champion Dallas Diamonds who had previously only lost one game in a four-year span. Those two wins kept the defending champs from even entering the playoffs. Much like the NFL Super Bowl Champion Giants, the Scorpions were true road warriors, going undefeated on the road in the regular season, and traveled to Los Angeles and New York for their playoff victories.

En route to their Championship, several Scorpion players excelled and shattered league records. QB Melissa Gallegos threw for over 1,700 yards and 20 touchdowns, she also ran for over 100 yards and 4 rushing touchdowns. Rookie Sensation Brittney Cotton led the WR corps with almost 700 yards receiving joining Scorpion veterans Isis Wagner, Elizabeth Quintard and Theresa Smith on the WPFL All Pro Team. RB Felicia (Reesey) Reese rushed for over 1,600 yards and 12 touchdowns and was the winner of the League MVP award. She scored the first touchdown in SoCal's 14-7 Championship victory over the Houston Energy.

The offense was anchored on the O-Line by ALL Stars Katrina Walter, Lela Vaeao, Lindsay Hood, Christina Carrillo, and first year left guard Hawa Wiley-Ross. This unit gave up less than 10 sacks on the season for an offense that threw the ball 60% of the time. Defensively, the Scorpions were led by Deuce Reyes who recorded 17 INT's on the season and by Defensive Ends Cilena Mosley and Crystal Stokes who together recorded over 24 sacks on the season. Defensive Tackle Michelle Starks earned her first All Pro spot joining veteran Joniece Edwards. Team Captain Andrea Hubbard made the switch from Defensive End to Linebacker and still earned an All Pro bid along with first time All-Pros, Tarrah Philpott and Wendy Hanlon. Priscilla Flores and Kalilah Lawson rounded out So Cal's record 22 players on the All Pro team.

The Championship So Cal Scorpions were also represented when ESPN Commentator/Author Rick Reilly visited the team and featured them in his book Sports From Hell.

In their first season in the IWFL in 2010, the Scorpions finished 6–2, good enough for another playoff berth. However, for the first time in their history they finished the postseason "one-and-done," losing to the Sacramento Sirens 60–26.

For their inaugural season in the WFA, the Scorpions won only two games (both against intra-city rivals the San Diego Sting). However, the Scorpions would fold mid-season, with their final official record being 2–6. A new San Diego women's team emerged in 2011 with the establishment of the San Diego Surge

Season-By-Season
!Totals || 39 || 31 || 0
 * colspan="6" align="center" | So Cal Scorpions (WPFL)
 * 2003 || 4 || 6 || 0 || 4th American West || --
 * 2004 || 1 || 9 || 0 || 4th American West || --
 * 2005 || 9 || 1 || 0 || 1st American West || Won American Conference Semifinal (Los Angeles) Lost American Conference Championship (Dallas)
 * 2006 || 6 || 2 || 0 || 2nd American West || Won American Conference Semifinal (New England) Lost American Conference Championship (Dallas)
 * 2007 || 6 || 2 || 0 || 2nd American West || Won American Conference Semifinal (Los Angeles) Won American Conference Championship (Empire State) '''Won WPFL Championship (Houston)
 * 2008 || colspan="6" rowspan="2" align="center" | Did Not Play
 * 2009
 * colspan="6" align="center" | So Cal Scorpions (IWFL)
 * 2010 || 6 || 2 || 0 || 2nd Tier I West Pacific West || Lost Pacific West Division Championship (Sacramento)
 * colspan="6" align="center" | So Cal Scorpions (WFA)
 * 2011 || 2 || 6 || 0 || 3rd American Southwest || --
 * 2008 || colspan="6" rowspan="2" align="center" | Did Not Play
 * 2009
 * colspan="6" align="center" | So Cal Scorpions (IWFL)
 * 2010 || 6 || 2 || 0 || 2nd Tier I West Pacific West || Lost Pacific West Division Championship (Sacramento)
 * colspan="6" align="center" | So Cal Scorpions (WFA)
 * 2011 || 2 || 6 || 0 || 3rd American Southwest || --
 * 2010 || 6 || 2 || 0 || 2nd Tier I West Pacific West || Lost Pacific West Division Championship (Sacramento)
 * colspan="6" align="center" | So Cal Scorpions (WFA)
 * 2011 || 2 || 6 || 0 || 3rd American Southwest || --
 * colspan="6" align="center" | So Cal Scorpions (WFA)
 * 2011 || 2 || 6 || 0 || 3rd American Southwest || --
 * 2011 || 2 || 6 || 0 || 3rd American Southwest || --
 * colspan="2"| (including playoffs)

Season Schedule
** = Forfeited

title: So Cal Scorpions


text:
User:Matia.gr/Arvanites sources

my involvement with Arvanites and related articles
The following might be presented as my formal statement at Requests_for_arbitration along with my proposals about all the relevant problems.

I am a man who likes to read, a bibliophile. I joined WP believing that I could help this encyclopedic project, even with my minor contributions.

I knew that Arvanites identify as Greeks and I have some friends who are Arvanites and they are always offended if someone calls them Albanians. I have also read some books that had some side-notes about Arvanites mostly with regards to their part in the greek revolution of 1821. I've tried to help that wiki with pointing out their cultural identity and their history, when User:Albanau thought that these people are ethnic Albanians. I believe User:Albanau at some point understood who are the Arvanites, and that while they have a light connection with Albanians they don't consider themselves as Albanians. At some point, User:REX joined the discussion.

Early September he filed a RFC for history and linguistics and I supported that move, because while the Helsinki report was discussed and there was a consensus about the article in general, I agreed with User:REX that the linguistics and the history part of the wiki were insufficient. After few days, that user convinced me to find sources to support what I said about their historical and cultural identity. And as we didn't have any responses from the RFC, I've desided to go and search public libraries in my free time. I had gathered a lot of sources about their history and their music, but I choose to present only Biris and Moraitis because of lack of time to sum up the rest sources and because every book I got my hands on had refferences to Biris work.

During the last days of september until today I've got too tired of the constant personal attacks and at some point I became WP:COLD. I don't know how would someone else react in my place, but now I have some cold feelings for wikipedia. I would like to finish 2 or 3 articles that I could help, for example Arvanites. But I am so WP:COLD that I'm thinking of staying totally out of edits and let someone else sort everything out. I'm unsure. +MATIA ☎ 00:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Biris
Kostas Biris: I had added two books with isbns in Arvanites. Who disputes Biris (Κώστας Μπίρης or Κωνσταντίνος Μπίρης in greek)? Who uses his work Arvanites, the Dorians of modern Hellenism (Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του σύγχρονου ελληνισμού) as a referrence? +MATIA ☎ 22:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * http://arvasynel.gr/bibliografia.html

Brian Joseph
On one of the links I've presented, he explains the problem with the terms language and dialect. On another he writes that Arvanitika share a common origin with Tosk, and that Arvanitika are like ancient Shqip (he also has a diagram somewhere, showing that Arvanitika do not derive from Tosk).
 * link1
 * link2
 * link3
 * link4

Aristeides Kollias
an anonymous editor added some bits from Kollias. Kollias wrote the book "Arvanites and the origin of Greeks". Perhaps Kollias should be mentioned too. I haven't mentioned Kollias, because at some parts of his book can be questionable. For example he is against the Indo-Europeans theory, and he stretches the Pelasgian theory to say that Albanians originate from Arvanites - if I remember correctly.

Thanasis Moraitis
Moraitis had worked with Kollias for some period. He did an extensive search for Arvanitika songs. The book I've mentioned has about 150 songs, musical analysis, and some texts about history and Arvanitika language. He refferences some other, smaller, books on Arvanitika songs.

Peter Trudgill
Peter Trudgill studied Arvanites and Arvanitika. According to his studies, Arvanite speaking are from 30.000 to 140.000(?) in the whole Greece. The 1951 census give a figure of 23.000 speakers of Arvanitika.

Ethnologue
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aat

Arvanitika Albanian language

alternative names: Arvanitika, Arvanitic, Arberichte

see also Ethnologue

Robert Elsie
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:b0XWh_7L2zIJ:www.elsie.de/pub/b08.html+www.elsie.de/pub/b08.html+Martin+CAMAJ+albanian+dialects+Italian+Greece

Robert Elsie, Anthology of modern Albanian poetry, An Elusive eagle soars, ISBN 1-85610-017-0

As a linguistic minority, the Arbëresh now consist of about 90,000 speakers, most of whom live in the mountain villages of Cosenza in Calabria and in the vicinity of Palermo in Sicily. Their language, which still does not benefit from the official status accorded to other national minorities in Italy (German, French, Slovenian etc.) is moribund due to the strong cultural influence of Italian and to economic emigration. It is extremely archaic and differs substantially from the Albanian now spoken in the Balkans. Communication is difficult if Arbëresh speakers are not familiar with standard literary Albanian.

the language does not enjoy any official status. Arvanitika, which is dying out rapidly, is thought to be the most archaic form of Albanian spoken today.

comment: Arvanitika is closer to Shqipe, and Arvanites called their language Arvanitika (or Arber* something) and not Albanian since ever. +MATIA ☎ 11:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:uG5gOGzMYGkJ:www.elsie.de/pub/pdf_articles/A2001CountriesCultures.pdf+rhotacism+Albanian+century&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8

Tsitsipis
http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/71d89376d6ec1cb3a19afeb4da09e526.html

the Helsinki report
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html

most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying.

This report should be cross-checked with other sources because it has some pov sections. But the helsinki report never refers to Arvanitika as a dialect. It calls it language, warns the academics not to tell to Arvanites that it is Albanian language or that they are Albanians, and later on the report it calls them Albanians, contradicting itself. +MATIA ☎ 11:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Berisha
Sali Berisha had described during the 90s, the Arvanites as an Albanian minority in Greece and that resulted in protests of the Arvanitic community in mass media. +MATIA ☎ 19:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

google search
As I've stated before, I dislike google search, because it can be misleading in disputed topics.
 * keywords: Arvanitika -wikipedia results: 560
 * keywords: Arvanitic -wikipedia results: 274

What is all this fighting about? (from Talk:Arvanites)

 * Dialect vs language:Pointless dillema. Read: Dialect. The creteria of distinguishing a language from a dialect in our case are to a large extent political. Some Albanians want to consider Arvanites as Albanians, so for political reasons they like to consider Arvanitica as a dialect of Albanian language. Greeks don't like that, and for political reasons like to consider that a different language. Has Albanian or Greek nationalism much to do with the language itself as a form of comunication? No.
 * Arvanites as a national minority: Some Albanians want to consider Arvanites as an Albanian unrecognised minority. They have to have a look at Nation (The nationals (the members of the "nation") are distinguished by a common identity, and almost always by a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent). Do Arvanites have a common identity? They ancestors maybe did. Do modern Arvanites and Albanians have a common identity? I don't think so. Do Arvanites and Albanians have a sense of same ancestry, parentage or descent? Some Albanians have that sense. Do Arvanites have that sense too? No. Someone belongs to a nation if he/she believes that he/she belongs to it. If he/she believes otherwise, he is not a member of that nation. Do Arvanites feel Albanians? No.
 * Reference to NGOs. Do these organisations have a "NPOV policy"? Can they make mistakes or "mistakes"?
 * Language-minorities. Some greeks and some albanians cannot ditinguish between a minority language and a language of a minority. A minority language is a language that is spoken less than another language. A language of a minority is a language used by a religious or another distinguishable minority. Turkish in Greece, Greek in Albania are languages of minorities. Arvanitica in Greece and Gheg in Albania are minority languages, because they are spoken by the minority of people.
 * Greeks disliking that Arvanites may have a common ancestry with Albanians: What's so bad about having a common ancestry with someone that belongs to another nation? Having a common ancestry with an albanian or a greek or a german doesn't make you an albanian or a greek or a german. See above (my second point).
 * Nationalism in the most stupid sense. Living in a specific country does nececerily mean that you have to accept and fight for what you are told (or not told) in school? Why does a Greek or an Albanian have to argue to support the "NPOV" facts he/she is told from the day he/she is born?--Mik2 20:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

language vs. dialect
Thought it might be useful to have input from someone who knows something of linguistics and identifies with neither Greek nor Albanian. I haven't read all of this dispute, so forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said.

There are three contradictory ways of distinguishing 'language' from 'dialect': Finally, very often the word 'language' is used ambiguously in the sense of 'idiom', without implying either a language-level or dialect-level relationship with another idiom. "The American language" etc.
 * One is that a 'language' is a standardized idiom with literature and governmental support, while a 'dialect' is nonstandard, and often by implication substandard and spoken by the uneducated. This usage is why people often become offended if their idiom is called a 'dialect'. This of course is a social/political and often discriminatory definition: the 'a language is a dialect with an army' position.
 * Another is the test of mutual intelligibility. Generally, if a speaker of idiom A, who has had no exposure to idiom B, moves to a B-speaking area and can pick it up in a couple weeks, then A and B are considered dialects of language C. By this definition, Chinese, German, and Arabic are not single languages, while Russian and Ukrainian are dialects of a single language. (I know one Ukrainian who says he speaks 'a dialect of Russian'). Of course, this is a very difficult standard to meet in many cases. For example, is Mixtec one language, or forty? There are very very few languages where controlled studies have been done to determine whether, say, a representative population from town A can converse at FSI level 3 with a representative population from town B. So, although this might seem the most objective and linguistically most justified definition, it doesn't always work well in practice.
 * A third is ethno-linguistic identity. That is, if two peoples consider their idioms to be separate languages, then they are, even if mutually intelligible. A good example of this is Hindi and Urdu, which are commonly considered separate languages despite the fact that speakers very often can't tell the difference if they're not told what someone is speaking. A more recent example is Bosnian. There are problems here too, of course. For example, many Macedonians are of the opinion that they speak the Macedonian language, but many Bulgarians consider it to be 'just' a dialect of Bulgarian. Usually in such cases it is the opinion of the speakers of an idiom that are more highly valued, but of course speaker opionion may also be sharply divided along political, religious, or class lines.

So my 2 cents are that simply calling something a 'language' or a 'dialect' is not very informative. There often is no simple answer. Rather, if you wish to convey the essence of an idiom to your audience, you need to cover all bases: how is the idiom perceived by its speakers? how is it perceived by outsiders? how readily intelligible is it to related idioms? what kind of recognition does it enjoy? Different readers might be interested in the social aspect, linguistic aspect, or political aspect, and I don't think it should be our job to decide for them which they should consider. kwami 01:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

no, not all linguists would call Arvanitike a dialect. Most linguists are concerned with the grist of a language (the grammar and such), and they would call A a dialect based on mutual intelligibility. However, there is also an entire field of sociolinguistics. There are many many linguists would do not try to reduce a language down to its grammar, as if it were some sterile abstraction that could exist outside the people who speak it. Their conceptions of language are often ethnolinguistic, and many of them might call A. a language. (I say might, because I don't know any linguists who refer to it at all!) As I said above, any responsible linguist would cover both sides of the issue. If Wikipedia tries to present A. as either a dialect or as a separate language, without any clarification, then yes we would indeed look foolish. We need to do both. kwami 20:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

my request on his talk page
I've left a similar request to another user and then I 've remembered Talk:Arvanites.

I am not a linguist. Could you possibly check and parse the following:
 * link1
 * Arvanitika is a member of the Tosk group of dialects, which together with Gheg constitute Albanian. It appears from this that A is linguistically a dialect, whatever the ethnic conception may be. It has both conservative elements that have disappeared from standard Albanian, and elements assimilated from Greek.

 * link2
 * "Arvanitika, the variety of Tosk Albanian". Perhaps they're dodging the dialect/language dispute altogether. As I said elsewhere, choosing one or the other word isn't always a useful exercise.

 * link3
 * "Arvanitika is to be considered a dialect of Albanian, part of the sub-group of Albanian dialects known as the "Tosk" dielcts [sic]". Pretty clear.

 * link4
 * The book A Linguistic Anthropology of Praxis and Language Shift: Arvanitika (Albanian) and Greek in Contact received good reviews in the anthro lit, suggesting that no one took umbrage. However, "Arvanitika (Albanian)" very possibly is intended to clarify an unfamiliar name by classifying it. It doesn't specifically mean that Arvanitika is an Albanian dialect any more than "English (Germanic)" (for people who are unfamiliar with what English is) would mean that English is a Germanic dialect.
 * ""Arvanitika" most technically refers to a dialect of Albanian [...], or more accurately a cluster of dialects". Pretty clear.

 * "... the tricky thing about labelling two speech varieties as "dialects" or separate "languages" is that there are other factors that play a role besides just some measure (which often cannot be quantified in any reasonable way anyway) of "sameness", factors of a social, political, economic, etc. nature. Thus, to take an example close to Greece, Serbian and Croatian are quite similar in most respects to the extent that they pass the mutual intelligibility test for being dialects of the same language, but for political reasons now, they are largely being promoted as separate languages. [...] And there are speech forms that are generally considered dialects of the same language that are not really mutually intelligible, e.g. Yorkshire English and Texan English!  Thus Arvanitika is considered a dialect of Albanian [...] because it is roughly mutually intelligible with other varieties of Albanian. [...] Linguists are fond of saying that "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy" [...], a way of emphasizing that external factors play a large role in how speech forms are classified."

 * What he's saying here is that, looking just at a grammar of the language and a dictionary, or watching two people communicate, we would consider Arvanitika to be a Tosk dialect. However, languages are social phenomena and badges of identity, not grammar books or phrase books, and which varieties actually get called dialects vs. languages is a subjective judgement call that has no single answer.

for Arvanitika? I hope you can help. Thanks!

+MATIA ☎ 11:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

How about pages 3 and 4 of the 1999comp.pdf? The parts about ancient Arvanitika (or ancient Albanian depending on how you look at it) and about brother not child? +MATIA ☎ 22:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Arvanitika and Standard Albanian are sister dialects of Tosk. That is, neither is a language independent of the other; they are both Tosk dialects. (Whether Tosk is a language or a dialect of Albanian is another question, of course, but it's generally considered to be a dialect.)

 * Ancient Arvanitika/Albanian per se is not mentioned in the article, so I don't know what you're referring to there.

 * To paraphrase, Arvanitika is not an endangered language, but an endangered dialect of Albanian. It's clear that this author considers A to be one of many dialects of Albanian, and not a separate language. kwami 00:54, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Anyway, the reason I'm here is that +MATIA has asked me to evaluate some of his sources for the dialect/language debate. (BTW, I have no interest in either Greek or Albanian. I once tried swimming to Greece, but never made it, so I haven't even been to the Balkans.) All the sources MATIA provided except one agreed that Arvanitika was an Albanian (Tosk) dialect. One called it a sister dialect to the Standard Albanian dialect; another said that it was more precisely a group of dialects, not a single dialect. The one exception used the word "variety", perhaps to avoid the issue. However, these were all based on narrowly linguistic conceptions of mutual intelligibility, not on ethnolinguistic conceptions of self identity. One source specifically brought this up, but didn't try to resolve the issue.

 * In cases where speakers of two mutually intelligible speech varieties consider themselves to speak different languages, as in the case of Malaysian and Indonesian, or standard Hindi and Urdu, or Serbian and Croatian, then this is usually spelled out explicitly. Anything less is misleading. Calling Arvanitika and Albanian separate languages contradicts normal linguistic criteria; calling them dialects of the same language ignores the ethnolinguistic facts.

 * How about something along the line of "Arvanitika and standard Albanian are mutually intelligible varieties of Tosk Albanian. However, the people have distinct ethnic identities. Arvanitika has been stronly influenced by Greek, and they consider their language to be distinct from Albanian"? I don't know if that's an improvement, but from what I understand I don't think it misstates the case. Unless this has already been resolved? kwami 20:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

copied
sections copied to Requests for arbitration/REX/Evidence

personal attacks against User:Matia.gr by User:REX - copied

 * while blocked 23:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC) -  Bomac, don't worry about MATIA's empty threats. If you read Blocking policy you will see that personal attacks of any variety, especially of the variety that MATIA often makes against me, are not in their self justifiable cause for blocking. MATIA is bluffing, as usual. It is like when he pretends to have sources while in reality he doesn't :-) REX 23:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

copied

 * I've requested protection of Arvanitic language - ("I 'm afraid that User:REX will take his edit war regarding the already protected article Arvanites to Arvanitic language. See also Talk:Arvanites and Talk:Arvanitic language. Thanks.")
 * 20:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC) - ("MATIA this is your tactic. Abusing the system. Well both of us can play this game.")
 * 20:12, 8 September 2005 (UTC) - ("You don't have to worry, I won't take the edit-war to Arvanitic language as long as the POV message in at the heading. MATIA, You really shouldn't request protection of there is no edit war or vandalism going on.")
 * 20:47, 8 September 2005 (UTC) - continuing his edit war on Albanian language wiki.

REX's problem with Arvanites - copied

 * 14:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC) - "can we say Arvanitic Albanians as we say Tosk Albanians or Gheg Albanians? "
 * 15:04, 27 September 2005 - REX moving Arvanitika language, to Arvanitika Albanian
 * 17:00, 5 October 2005 - edit summary: Tweak! Greek POV has no place on this page" - comment: a revert-war, ignoring Arvanitic POV (more comments later)

Someone should notice that while this is suppossed to be a matter of linguistics the edit-war is on the article about Arvanites and not on their language.

 * User:Ninio
 * 18:42, 7 October 2005 - REX reverting Ninio, misleading edit summary and removal of accurate phrases (check wiki's history for more similar examples)
 * 12:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC) - Ninio explaining to REX the problem with the figure of 180.000 Slavic speakers in Greece (I had given him links maybe 5 more times in the past)
 * 14:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC) - REX reporting Ninio for 3RR, and my comment

above sections copied to Requests for arbitration/REX/Evidence

variety of subjects

 * various
 * 23:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

the "greek" problem

 * 15:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC) - ignoring the facts: census are held every decade (1981, 1991) and REX chooses to ignore it even if many people told him so and provided the statistics website.
 * asd 17:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

greek sources
(from Talk:Arvanites)

It doesn't help you to claim that you don't understand Greek or claiming that Greek sources cannot be used. If they can't be used why are you a translator from Greek to English? But don't worry. Brian Joseph is not Greek. So if you have a problem with Greeks (see Biris) we'll use BJ's english. +MATIA ☎ 14:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Verifiability,

to be updated

 * 14:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 14:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Talk:Arvanites - early september
 * 19:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

untitled

 * 15:13, 27 September 2005: "is it really a personal attack to call someone a troll after he repeatedly associated me with nazis? Is there a word that could describe that behaviour, the double standards and the circular logic, that is not a p.a.? MATIA 15:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)"
 * had mistaken my user page with my user talk page probably at 15:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC): "try to maintain civility, even in the face of attacks. I don't claim it's easy, but I assure you that it will have better results."
 * 16:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC): "I'm getting rather pessimistic with WP - it reminds me the tower of Babel. Or maybe I'm too much wiki-stressed these days. Thanks. MATIA"
 * From Talk:Arvanites - Tony suggests WP:ANI
 * I mean it. Stop discussing whether this person or that is a sock puppet. Here, discuss the article. Take comments about your suspicions of sock puppetry and whatnot to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --Tony SidawayTalk 18:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 20:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC) deleted from WP:ANI
 * I'm thinking of just handing out a block to anybody contributing to thus silly squabble on this page. This is appalling behavior on all sides, and you should all stop it immediately. --Tony SidawayTalk 18:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't. That way leads to the dark side. Now if the various combatants would be good enough to accept that this is not a matter for AN/I they can persue the proper channels of the disspute resolution process.Geni 19:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well maybe I'll just delete the crap. This is like when the drains back up an and the sewage just spills out. Are these mutts even capable of understanding NPOV and NPA? --Tony SidawayTalk 19:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Woof! :D--Theathenae 19:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Despite their claims to the contrary, both sides are clearly interested in pursuing this dispute. Here's a suggestion: go use the proper venue (RfC, RfAr). Do it now. This garbage should all be deleted.--Scimitar parley 20:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * User_talk:Tony_Sidaway: I had listed 4-5 examples of personal attacks against me on WP:ANI, and now the whole section is gone? +MATIA ☎ 20:50, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh it all became ridiculous so I deleted it. Look, there's a thing called Wikipedia:Resolving disputes. Read it and follow the suggestions. This business of screaming about how horrible somebody else is doesn't work. --Tony SidawayTalk 21:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "I'm not screaming anything Tony. But I do believe that it was unfair to be treated the same way as the one who attacked me. Thanks for your answer. +MATIA ☎ 21:54, 30 September 2005 (UTC)"
 * But know I do scream: INJUSTICE! +MATIA ☎ 19:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Still trying to parse and sort it out. +MATIA ☎ 22:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

blocked while not-editing

 * From my contributions (I wasn't editing): 17:55, 4 October 2005 and then 18:56, 5 October 2005.
 * 14:32, 5 October 2005 Tony Sidaway blocked "User:Matia.gr" with an expiry time of 3 hours (Blocking REX, Theathenae and matia.gr briefly for persistent dogfighting on Arvanites)
 * User_talk:Matia.gr: Hi Matia, I was just casually glancing at Special:Ipblocklist and I noticed that you have been blocked. I suggest you try to evade the block using sockpuppetry like Theathenae did and maybe then you'll understand why I am not a sockpuppet like you ridiculed me as. GrandfatherJoe 15:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:Requests for page protection - Arvanites: Could somebody please lock the page Arvanites because there is a dreadful edit-war going on there. See edit history. GrandfatherJoe 15:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:Requests for page protection - Arvanites: Oh I was watching that page and blocked the three worst offenders for three hours apiece. I hope they'll take the hint. --Tony SidawayTalk 16:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * User_talk:Tony Sidaway: I'm sorry to disturb you but someone (REX, Theathenae or Matia.gr) is using a sockpuppet on Arvanites while they are blocked. The sockpuppet is Thrakiotis (Special:Contributions/Thrakiotis). GrandfatherJoe 16:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * They haven't. Someone is using a sockpuppet on it Thrakiotis (Special:Contributions/Thrakiotis). GrandfatherJoe 16:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll clear the calumnies against me and I'll seek apologies for the injustice I've suffered. +MATIA ☎ 18:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * User_talk:Tony_Sidaway: REX asks for advice: "I see, that sounds like good advice. I'll prop the question to them again calmly and rationally and see what happens. REX 19:12, 5 October 2005 (UTC)"

I have to take a break but there must be a lot of things missing. +MATIA ☎ 23:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * 17:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC) - trying to warn User:Ninio who was able to see that there was a consensus in the past at Arvanites

 * 14:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC) - is this a warning? I thought the warnings went to user talk pages before blocking. even vandals get test4
 * "This is appalling behavior on all parts. I've blocked REX, Theathenae and matia.gr for three hours as a warning for extreme incivility, personal attacks and edit warring. Please find a way to communicate with one another without making nonsensical and irrelevant accusations. --User:Tony Sidaway"
 * 14:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC) - ...asking questions later: was it a controversial move?
 * ditto
 * 16:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "Please, I've just blocked those three and now I find a new editor,, and continuing this sterile revert warfare. Please, both of you, stop this. It makes you both look just as bad as the three I have blocked, and only fuels the suspicion that you may be sock puppets of the blocked editors."

 * 23:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC) - some advice
 * 23:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC) -some questions
 * "It's very difficult for me not to point out that a) I weren't even here editing when I got blocked b) you haven't contacted me for clarifications from me or showing and explaining to me where I did what wrong c) you didn't check what was happening here thoroughly d) you never showed that you care who attacked repeatedly whom for a long period e) you didn't check the participants on that debate. anyway, we all know I'm not wp:cool tonite after my block by you... so I'll try to stop here."
 * "And I can't help wondering how would you react if you were labeled in any unwanted way for many months. And then finding out that while you were away you got blocked. No, I can't understand you. We have a proverb in Greece: If the foot hurts you shouldn't cut your hand. (this means that treatment is needed where the problem is and not in other parts)"
 * 02:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "I wish. I see no significant improvement in the behavior of any party to this argument, save a marked reluctance to resume the edit war. They're still not listening to one another."

 * compare with:
 * Wikipedia_talk:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard - 7 October 2005 (UTC)

"would be to start imposing sanctions for inflammatory or insulting remarks (such as accusing others of lying) and general stubbornness (such as insisting on formal apologies). Not sure if that would have the desired effect though."
 * 18:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

"Revert paroles and personal attack paroles, perhaps even as part of a preliminary injunction, may be in order"
 * 09:41, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

DEUX EX MACHINA or agent provocateur?

 * GrandfatherJoe
 * 13:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "I've been doing some reading on this subject after REX's e-mail where he was pleading for help. In my view, MATIA and Theathenae are vandalising the articles. It is perfectly clear that this language is a dialect of Tosk and no word games on their part will change that fact. Actually I am puzzled over what REX said. If UNESCO and Ethnologue use the name Arvanitika Albanian as the primary name for this language, then why isn't it being used in place of this somewhat artificial name Arvanitic language? If you read Ethnologue you will see that its list of alternative names is often challenged. In my opinion again, I believe that the name at the heading (Arvanitika Albanian) is the only appropriate name, which incidentally happens to be the name used by the UNESCO report. I don't know what REX, MATIA and Theathenae think that they are doing. You cannot pick and choose what parts of sources to use and which parts to ignore at your discretion. Wikipedia works based on neutrality (see NPOV) and given that our primary sources call this language Arvanitika Albanian, then why isn't that name used? This other name lacks Verifiability as Ethnologue's alternative name lists are often challenged, therefore the name Arvanitika Albanian is obviously the NPOV name. If you read No original research you will find that Wikipedia policy requires that you unconditionally accept what it verified in reliable sources providing that it is relevant. If you lot think that you can pick and choose which policies to accept and which parts of which sources to use based on your personal whims, then Wikipedia will become a hopelessly lame encyclopaedia. I sincerely hope that the three of you will mend your ways and behave like responsible adults."
 * short version:Hello, I'm GrandfatherJoe, REX mailed me for help, MATIA and Theathenae are vandals...

check edit summaries, articles of interest and arguments when they discuss. what's happening?

 * Special:Contributions/GrandfatherJoe
 * Special:Contributions/REX
 * Special:Contributions/Grymnir

 * there are two more official accounts that User:REX had used in the past and they'll be provided upon request. +MATIA ☎ 12:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

pattern matching

 * Special:Contributions/Grymnir
 * 11 contributions in Main
 * 7 of them are reverts in Arvanitika language
 * talk pages
 * edit summaries
 * "(rvt / What are you talking about? You are disputing "ethnologue.com", the Greek Helsinki HRW Comittee as also the Oxford Dictionary mentioned by the other member below! Based on... what?)"
 * to be continued

 * Special:Contributions/GrandfatherJoe
 * contributions
 * Goodevening, I'm pleased to meet you or "I've been doing some reading on this subject after REX's e-mail where he was pleading for help. In my view, MATIA and Theathenae are vandalising the articles." "Actually I am puzzled over what REX said. If UNESCO and Ethnologue use the name Arvanitika Albanian as the primary name for this language, then why isn't it being used in place of this somewhat artificial name Arvanitic language?" - 13:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * At that time his most contributions were on Talk:Cornish people, Talk:Cornwall, Talk:Macedonian Slavs
 * Hot words: nationalism, nationalists, "I wonder what that means :-)", "I suggest that you all read Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not."
 * UNESCO holy word - 16:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * if REX says the holy words...
 * 3 edits in Arvanites
 * 2 of them while REX, MATIA, and Theathenae were blocked
 * fields of interest: 21 edits in Main more than 50 edits, less than 100, in wiki-talk (at 22:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC))
 * Arvanites, Talk:Cornish people, Talk:Macedonian Slavs, Talk:Cornwall

 * Special:Contributions/REX
 * fields of interest
 * Cornish people, Arvanites,

after my block

 * Special:Contributions/144.15.255.227
 * User talk:144.15.255.227

my involvement with Arvanites and related articles
User:Matia.gr/Arvanites_sources

to be updated - RFArb
I would prefer you writing that report instead of trolling. As for the census of 1986, you may have forgotten it but everybody else can verify that no census was held in 1986. MATIA 15:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 15:34, 13 September 2005
 * and round again
 * 17:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * f you want to investigate multiple accounts, check Matia.gr's sockpuppet User:Mik2 or Theathenae's sockpuppet User:Thrakiotis. Matia's sockpuppet was made to double vote on Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll I believe and now he has double voted again. What is interesting is that I don't have an IP match with ANY OTHER ACCOUNT, WHERE ARE THE SOCKPUPPETS???

 * 21:24, 31 October 2005
 * 11:06, 1 November 2005

 * Requests_for_arbitration/REX

 * 16:57, 7 October 2005 - copied

 * - 31 August 2005 (UTC): I think both mediation and RfC should be done. The problem is that the neutral guys, apart from having very much patience, must be willing to search for all the resources they can, to understand the bigger picture.

 * User_talk:Matia.gr
 * User_talk:Matia.gr

 * User_talk:Bomac

 * 14:32, 23 October 2005 my changes on Arvanites
 * 14:36, 23 October 2005

 * 17:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 14:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 12:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 17:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * his comment: I don't get it. Everything I said can be found on the Helsinki Report. I never used the phrase ethnic Albanians, MATIA. You are lying (as usual). I also think that it's fair to point out that a consensus was never reached, there was always dispute, from the top of the talk page till the bottom. You also say all the facts. Which facts? You haven't provided a single source to support your arguments and you directly contradict the word of such reliable documents such as the cited report. You are a liar, there is no doubt about it. Gee, it's so sad the lengths you will go to try and discredit me. So sad :-))) REX 17:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * 18:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "Proof that you can be reffered to as a "good man"" User:Macedonian|Macedonian 03:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Mr Sterbinski refrain from questioning my integrity and my honour. - my response
 * his comment: Hear that Mr Sterbinski, you're not allowed to question MATIA's integrity and honour. MATIA must be afraid of something, but what? They say that an honest man has nothing to fear, but MATIA seems to be afraid? Is it possible that the honour he is always babbling about doesn't exist. MATIA, you can't just say you have honour, you have to behave accordingly. Deeds mean more than words, remember. You dismissed the idea of mediation, would a man of honour do that? I don't think so. REX 18:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29&diff=26346940&oldid=26344510

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29&diff=prev&oldid=26369100

 * 03:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * REX, do not get in MATIA's game of accusations for PA. I can suggest we to report him for destroying the articles by overlinning them. Also we can report him for his completely unconstructive and irritating comments during our disscusions on "Macedonians (ethnic group)"'s talk page. That guy is getting close to the edge of my patience... Macedonian 03:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

 * 08:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC) - restoring (2nd time) my comments

 * User:REX/Petition
 * User:Rexhep_Bojaxhiu
 * AMA_Requests_for_Assistance
 * link

to be updated - more

 * [WP AN]
 * User talk:SuperTroll
 * User talk:HyperTroll
 * User talk:EL ZORRO

 * I've removed unsupported calumnies from two user pages +MATIA ☎ 21:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * rv grafiti
 * rv grafiti

 * prob
 * 149

more notes

 * Wikipedia_talk:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard
 * Blocking policy
 * 3rd note

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=20103571&oldid=20103163

title: User:Matia.gr/Arvanites sources