text:
Talk:Dome

Oval domes
The first oval dome may be St. Gereon's Basilica in Cologne, Germany. The oval cupola was completed in 1227, well before the Renaissance or Baroque.

 * St. Gereon's Basilica
 * Pic: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:K%C3%B6ln_st_gereon_kuppel_dekagon.jpg

 * just stumbled upon this by coincidence. Defenitely NOT! St Gereon is a decagon and not an oval. And the 'dome' is a centralized rib vault. With a bit of generosity one could call it an umbrella dome, but even that is slightly far feched due to the decagonal plan...This being said: of course you can find the description "dome" all over the web - but then, not everything you can find online is true. However, there are oval domes in the middle ages, maybe even earlier. Random example: transept of the abbey church in Solignac. But "oval dome" seems to me rather descriptive than a real distinct dome type (I mean there is no category for "flat dome" or "steep dome". not even for "round dome".

--92.212.34.48 (talk) 13:09, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

 * I did not write the above comment, but the technical definitions for "dome" that I have found leave a lot to be desired. Only the most vague, "centralized vault" definitions cover everything conventionally identified as a dome and, as a result, I have taken an agnostic attitude in the article by accepting as a dome anything that a reliable academic source has labeled as one. AmateurEditor (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Improvements
I merged saucer dome and incorporated more pics, but this article needs sections on history and construction techniques. Now it is much better --Tysto 01:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Merge from cupola?
I think cupola is not an exact synonym, but represents a subset of architectural domes, sometimes meaning a small or ornamental dome. It's still a good candidate for merging, especially since both articles are currently headed by a photo of the same dome! —Michael Z. 2006-08-10 17:27 Z

 * I'm thinking the same. At least the difference between a dome and a cupola should be specified better in the article. German Wikipedia has Kuppel and both "Dome" and "Cupola" link to it. --Hartz (talk) 16:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Certainly not, a cupola and a dome are not the same thing at all, and cupola's are seldom domed shaped. Both dome and cupola can be used and often are independent of the other Pour example: Image:Belton Roof.gif. Neither is the image illustrating bith pages a domed cupola Image:StPetersDomePD.jpg Giano (talk) 17:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I have been told that a cupola is the underside of a dome, so you sit under a cupola, From the outside, what you see is the dome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.142.190.99 (talk) 05:09, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes, I have seen it used that way, as another word for the "intrados" or inner side of a dome. It is also used to refer to a small domed lantern. One of the frustrating aspects of this topic is the lack of a single standardized terminology across all of the sources. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:28, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Florence Duomo
I recall from my studies that the Duomo of the Santa Maria del Fiore in Florence is considered the first engineered dome, and was the world's largest for a long time. Don't know if I have that completely correct, but it bears mentioning. I'd like to see photos of the significant Hagia Sophia and the Duomo in this article. —Michael Z. 2006-08-10 17:34 Z

 * Then the definition of "engineered" in this sense would mean "aided by mathematics" or "aided by technology"? In what sense then were previous domes "not engineered"? --Wetman 18:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I believe it was designed using mathematical or statics formulas to predict the loads and design the required structure, rather than using empirically-determined or traditional rules of thumb, or trial-and-error. This is from an old architectural history class, and I don't remember the exact details.  It seemed significant, but I didn't want to add it to the article as mere hearsay.  —Michael Z. 2006-08-10 21:03 Z

 * Doesn't the dome of the rock predate all of these by over a thousand years? it was constructed in 691 and is the oldest islamic structure in existence, however the article states: "Domes that have been disproportionately influential in later architecture are those of the Great Stupa in Sanchi (actually, a solid mound with stone facing), the Pantheon in Rome, Hagia Sophia in Istanbul (or in that time Constantinople), and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem" while stating that the original domes were constructed much later?

 * Either this needs to be clarified or something doesn't add up. I could be wrong but it appears there has been more Islamic influence in subsequent architectural styles in Europe and the Mediterranean than is being recognized if in fact credit for the original creation of the dome is being given to individuals like Vignola from the 1500's. ~

 * Vignola is being given credit not for the invention of the dome but for the invention of the OVAL dome. But you're right that this article is weirdly short on history--it says next to nothing about the historic context of the invention of the dome, or the adoption of coffering, or the use of steel or other materials, or the invention of the geodesic dome, or the use of computers in dome design. (Both the Pantheon and the Hagia Sofia predate Islam, by the way.) 65.213.77.129 (talk) 20:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Reference to Jerusalem
An edit was made which changed 'Jerusalem, Israel' to 'Jerusalem, Occupied Palestinian Territories'. I've since changed the reference to only 'Jerusalem' in order to forestall a potential edit war, after having read part of Talk:Jerusalem. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 23:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

what domes represent in buildings of worship
This section recently added needs to be tweaked to make it more encyclopedic. Can any of this be rephrased as a report of what has been said in print? --Wetman (talk) 22:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Image sizes
The image sizes on this page need to be specified, or some of the images removed. Giano (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Primitive and prehistoric dwellings
This article could really use a section on pre-Roman/non-European examples of domes in structures. The intro briefly mentions their use in the ancient Middle East without giving any examples. Certainly, the Treasury of Atreus should be mentioned, as well as more recent Native American dwellings like the Wigwam and Igloo.

Also, a pet peeve: I hate when topics of prehistory are written as if we have complete knowledge of the past. I changed the wording in the intro which states Nero's Golden House is the earliest domestic dome even though the same intro acknowledges domes extend back into prehistory. It is extremely likely that primitive peoples used domed dwellings well before Nero (see Wigwam above). AmateurEditor (talk) 21:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Rating
This article deserves at least a B on quality scale. It has been expanded nicely! Dr. Persi (talk) 13:12, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * On behalf of everyone who has contributed, Thanks! AmateurEditor (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

"Hagia"
There was an instance in the article (that I changed) where Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene were translated as Divine Wisdom and Divine Peace. I've only ever heard of the Greek word hagia meaning "holy/sacred" when preceding an inanimate object or abstract concept, and the title "Saint" when referring to canonized individuals. "Divine" doesn't really mean the same thing, and it's definitely not the typical translation. 107.3.44.127 (talk) 20:04, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

References change
I want to change the references system currently used in the article to one used on some featured level articles (such as this one and this one). It makes recording and later finding page numbers easier and separates notes, citations, and bibliography in a neat way. I am aware that Wikipedia discourages making this kind of change when a reference system has already been established for an article, but I think the advantages for others to check references in any upcoming class evaluation alone justifies it. I just want to be sure that there are no objections to me doing this when I can. It will will take a while to complete. AmateurEditor (talk) 02:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Un-cited use of this article's lede in an academic paper
Surprisingly, the following article copies the lede paragraphs of this article verbatim and without acknowledgement: "ANALYSIS AND DESIGN OF STEEL DOME USING SOFTWARE" by Anuj Chandiwala, Assistant Professor, Civil Engineering Department, Chhotubhai Gopalbhai Patel Institute of Technology, Gujarat, India. It's a good example of WP:CIRCULAR. I'm posting this here for future reference. AmateurEditor (talk) 01:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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"infinite" stress?
"...However, if a point load is applied on the apex of a parabolic dome, the bending stress becomes infinite...."

"Infinite" is a pretty high amount. How can any structure of finite strength withstand an infinite force?

And "point load"? That could be anything down to a fly landing on the apex of a dome. Surely that doesn't create infinite stress.

More explanation is needed of this claim.

--23.119.204.117 (talk) 02:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree. There is no "infinite" stress in a structure. Period.

Also, the stress at a point load can of course be very high, and reach the point where the dome fails locally by punching shear, just like concrete slabs (or any member akin to a surface subjected to out-of-plane loading for that matter), but that has nothing to do with being "parabolic" or spherical etc. it has to do with the curvature/thickness ratio.

Also, I am surprised of the claim of parabolic domes in ancient structures, because it is very hard to distinguish between parabolic and catenary in ancient structures, given that the difference between the two is often less than the tolerance of masonry dimensions.

Some references, based on accurate measurements, would be very interesting to support this point, if they exist. Thanks.

2405:204:408E:183E:3CEB:CF03:58F5:5051 (talk) 15:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

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Optimal shape
I have removed the claim that the "optimal shape" of a dome is a catenoid of revolution. For a solid dome, it may not be super important, practically, to optimize the shape as it is for an arch, because the horizontal circular cross sections lend stability, meaning that the vertical stresses don't have to independently balance the gravitational force. However, it is possible to calculate the shape a thin dome would need to have if there were no azimuthal compressive strength, only compressive strength in the vertical plane, (or if the dome were interrupted, with symmetrical cutouts with edges along radial lines), and the result of that calculation is a cross-section with a shape of the form of y = erfi(x) - erf(x) [some constants omitted]. erf is the error function, and erfi is the imaginary error function. This is NOT a catenary, whose shape is of the form y = cosh(x). I have not found a published source for this calculation, making it inadmissible OR, but best to remove incorrect claims about catenoids anyway.Rracecarr (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for stepping up on that and for not inserting your own conclusions. I hope you keep looking for a usable source. Maybe the better term here is "funicular", rather then "catenoid"? AmateurEditor (talk) 16:02, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I added a sentence to that effect with sources. AmateurEditor (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Conflation?
The section on Dome, which seems to have been there for years, seems to conflate at least two types of ribbed or segmented domes. St Peter's and Hagia Sophia do not have gadrooned domes. The explanation is unclear - what does the italicised bit mean: "these are a type of dome divided at the base into curved segments, which follow the curve of the elevation."? Johnbod (talk) 17:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * It does, doesn't it? I think the sources do as well, so we should find better ones and that should definitely be made more clear. I believe the italicised bit is an awkward way to try to distinguish vertical segments from horizontal ones. That is, to distinguish the curves of an umbrella dome from those of the dome equivalent to something like the Trefoil arch. AmateurEditor (talk) 17:21, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Want to give re-wording that a shot? AmateurEditor (talk) 17:41, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe at some point, but I'd need to research. Anyone with a clearer idea is welcome to have a go. Johnbod (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Lede language
User:GPinkerton, I reverted your good faith bold edits and am responding to your subsequent objections on the talk page, per WP:BRD. Your points and my responses:
 * 1) "misleading suggestion that domes are all circular or semicircular" - Disagree. The language "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" does not mean "identical to the hollow upper half of a sphere". The further language mentioning a "wide variety of forms" addresses this issue. Strictly speaking, domes may be other shapes than "circular, elliptical, or polygonal", but what united them as a group is their similarity to the archetypal "upper half of a sphere" shape. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I disagree fundamentally. میل_2.jpg At right is an image of a dome which bears absolutely no resemblance to an "upper half of a sphere". Or any other half of sphere. A dome is a vault with radial symmetry. GPinkerton (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Your example might be domed on the interior, according to this section, or might not, according to this one. The UNESCO page does not use the word "dome" as all. "Vault with radial symmetry" is very broad and is not mentioned in your source, which has a separate entry for "cone" that does not mention it being a type of dome. Should a flat iron disk and a vault shaped like an inflexed arch be labeled domes? Some sources might. Some sources would accept a cone as a dome, and others would not. We are probably at an impasse here because definitions of the term "dome" in reliable sources contradict each other. Very few sources bother to address, let alone try to resolve, the different definitions used between sources, so the article resorts to a source that does (the second one listed below), which seems reasonable to me. I looked for more sources and found the following excerpts in which you can see the contradictions for yourself (bold added); the first two sources are those referenced in the body of the wikipedia article, in the "Terminology" section): AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * How could a flat iron disc be considered any kind of vault? A vault is defined as an "arch the depth of which exceeds the span". And yes, surely one can have an inflexed arch dome. GPinkerton (talk) 01:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC) KUTNA_HORA_(js)_7.jpg [[File:Sassoon_Mausoleum,_83_St_George's_Road,_Kemptown,_Brighton_(NHLE_Code_1380706)_(April_2013)_(2).JPG|thumb|an inflexed arch dome]]
 * Good point about vault definition, although it raises the question of how a circular-base dome can be a vault at all when the depth will equal the span. I have not heard of "tent dome" as a term that isn't referring to roughly hemispherical domed camping tents. Do you have a source that it is an actual term, since the image you posted doesn't use it and the term seems instead to be tented roof, where that image is used. The bottom line is: The Oxford source counts as a reliable source for Wikipedia but is demonstrably not a consensus definition and should not be used as one here, although it must be included in the article. Ideally we could expand on how the definition of "dome" has changed over time and varies today. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It should be obvious that vaults include width≥span, rather than merely width>span. Page 95 of Arthur Upham Pope's Persian Architecture uses "ovoid domes", "polyhedral domes", and "tent domes" to describe the 50-odd surviving tomb towers of a 700-year span of Iranian history. I disagree with the idea it is "demonstrably not a consensus definition", since it either agrees with, or widens the definitions used by the various less recent non-dictionary sources quoted. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We must use sources literally and using width≥span wasn't included in the Oxford dictionary definition of vault, regardless of how obvious it was. But that is beside the point: no one and no source is perfect. Mistakes are sprinkled throughout everything. Just because a source seems to confidently assert a consensus definition doesn't mean that it is one. A definition of a term is not consensus - by definition of the word "consensus" - if it "agrees with, or widens the definitions used". At best, widening the definition could be an attempt to establish a consensus. I agree that it is a wider definition than many of the others found. In the end, I believe we will have to elaborate on the problems in defining the term "dome", which have been ongoing for a very long time, in the body of the article and then summarize that in the lede. I don't have exact language in mind yet and it may require more research. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Rounded vault covering an interior space. A very small dome roof, for example a lantern mounted on the eye of a dome proper (e.g. St Paul's Cathedral, London), is known as a cupola. In Italian cupola is used for a monumental dome. [...] A dome can either be composed of curved segments or be a shell of revolution. The dome at Florence Cathedral by Filippo Brunelleschi (1377-1446) is segmental, octangular at every section. A shell of revolution is generated by rotating an arch about a vertical central axis. To produce a hemispherical surface the arch will be semicircular, but and shape of arch, similarly rotated, will give rise to a shell of revolution; and every horizontal cross-section is still circular. The simplest form of dome is that of such a shell of revolution: for example, the inner masonry dome of St Paul's Cathedral is roughly hemispherical, and has an open eye, while the main dome is conical; but both are shells of revolution, as is the surface of the timber outer dome. A dome can have either a single or a double shell." Colum Hourihane, "The Grove Encyclopedia of Medieval Art and Architecture, Volume 2", page 301. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This fits the perfectly the definition of vault with radial symmetry and refutes the idea that "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" is a suitable description for a dome. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that this source is consistent with the Oxford dictionary definition and the inclusion of cones contradicts the "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" description, unless you really stretch your imagination, but that description is based on the other source used in the body of the article, which explicitly tries to find the common thread between various definitions of the term. But where are you getting "radial symmetry" from as part of a definition? AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would argue that since you're arguing for an unsourced synthesis of multiple definitions of differing narrowness, I would argue "vault with radial symmetry" is better and more accurate than "like (but often completely unlike) a hemisphere". GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing for an unsourced synthesis at all (see where I said "that description is based on the other source used"?), but your "vault with radial symmetry" phrase does appear to be unsourced synthesis on your part. I've asked you for a source for that and you haven't provided one. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Domes have been the subject of controversy for more than a century. The origins of dome construction and the ways in which it was applied have both been heatedly debated In the light of this, two questions arise. Have some scholars made too much of these matters, thereby creating unnecessary problems and a false controversy? And was there really any 'problem' as regards the dome and the square bay? The underlying issue, however, is that of terminology. Respected scholars have plunged into the debate, only to confuse the situation further by the omission of an adequate definition of terms. Where definitions are given, they are either inconsistent through the text, or do not correspond to those in general use. This leads to confusion, misunderstanding and 'problems with domes'. One thing that most scholars agree upon is that the dome is a kind of vault. R. J. Mainstone defines a dome as "A spanning space-enclosing structural element circular in plan and commonly hemispherical or nearly so in total form". R. Krautheimer defines it as "a hemispherical vault" and the Penguin Dictionary of Architecture gives the following definition "A vault of even curvature erected on a circular base. The section can be segmental, semicircular, pointed or bulbous". Thus it emerges that the term 'dome' is non-specific, a blanket-word to describe an hemispherical or similar spanning element. When such a vault is placed on a circular wall, as in the Pantheon in Rome, the 'Temple of Mercury' at Bala or the Tor de'Schiavi on the Via Praenestina, there is little disagreement or variation in the term applied to the roofing element; it is a dome. Problems start to occur in recent critical literature when such an element is placed over an octagonal, polygonal or square bay." Hazel Dodge, "Building materials and techniques in the Eastern Mediterranean from the Hellenistic period to the fourth century AD", Thesis submitted for the Degree of PhD at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, pages 265-266. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This fits the perfectly the definition of vault with radial symmetry and refutes the idea that "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" is a suitable description for a dome, as Hazel has rightly pointed out. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, the source very clearly states that the emergent definition of "dome" from the various definitions cited is "a blanket-word to describe an hemispherical or similar spanning element". This is very close to the phrasing used in the Wikipedia article, "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere", so it does not fit well with a definition that includes geometric cones and flat-sided pyramids and inflexed arch shells of revolution. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, the PhD thesis, about domes in the ancient eastern Mediterranean world exclusively, specifically divides domes into "hemispherical spanning elements" and "similar spanning elements", i.e., those which are not like hemispheres. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The excerpt posted above is about domes generally, not specifically in a narrower time period or geographic area ("Domes have been the subject of controversy for more than a century."). It quotes the definition found in the Penguin dictionary of Architecture, which is clearly a general definition not limited to the ancient eastern Mediterranean world. I think the only reasonable reading of "hemispherical or similar spanning element" is hemispherical spanning elements and spanning elements that are similar-to-but-not-identical-to hemispheres. This was paraphrased in the lede as "an architectural element similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere". I don't think there's a big enough difference between the two to argue about. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Architecturally, the dome may be seen not only as a structure but also as shelter, spatial enclosure, silhouette, or symbolic form with divers connotations stemming from past uses. To review all these aspects of its history would be impossible in a brief survey. [...] Structurally, I take the term dome to denote, as it normally does, a doubly curved form supported from below and acting primarily in arching compression as it spans the space it encloses.", Roland Mainstone, "Domes: A Structural Overview", in "Domes 2000: Papers from the Annual Symposium of the Society of Architectural Historians of Great Britain", page 1. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What is impossible in Mainstone's brief survey need not restrict our definition on Wikipedia; it would be bizarre to confine the scope to what Mainstone needed to do in this singular paper. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you misread the excerpt regarding "impossible". Mainstone is not saying that domes outside of his definition are impossible to address in his small paper. He was saying that domes are not just structures but shapes, etc., and he is only going to discuss structure. For example, London's Millennium Dome is a dome in shape and not in structure. He then gives a structural definition of the term dome which includes shape, stating that it is "normally" a "doubly curved form", which a cone is not. You could say that the word "normally" means he leaves room for inclusion of cones as domes, but you could also say that he only includes "doubly curved" forms in his structural definition and according to him most definitions by others do so as well. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I did not misread it. Mainstone is a specialist in Roman architecture and "doubly curved" is applicable to many of them and to the subject of his paper, which does not attempt to define domes per se. It would be quite absurd to exclude, or use any conference paper that doesn't not attempt to define domes at large to supply a definition of domes that excludes the Millennium Dome, which, as you rightly say, is a dome. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Mainstone is a specialist in architecture and engineering. His paper does relate to domes per se, not just to domes in Roman architecture. His article covers domes from the earliest known prehistoric examples through the year 2000 AD. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "With iron, which lends itself to a wide variety of structural gymnastics, it is particularly important to define what is meant by the word 'dome'. The dome as considered here is in its purest form, that is with a regular figure, circular, elliptical or multi-faceted in plan, and a symmetrical profile (generally curved). Domed ends to barrel-shaped roofs or complex domes cut into by other roofs are excluded and so, for brevity, are structures never actually built.", James Sutherland, "19th-Century Iron and Glass Domes", in "Domes 2000: Papers from the Annual Symposium of the Society of Architectural Historians of Great Britain", page 111. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, the concerns of brevity for a conference paper need not determine how Wikipedia's encylopaedic definition is formulated. Indeed, Sutherland here specifically refers to types of dome that are neither curved, nor complete, nor simple. Wikipedia need have no such constraints. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you misread the excerpt regarding "brevity" and it only applies to "structures never actually built" being excluded for that reason, but I agree that a straight reading of his definition would include cones as domes (although the actual paper did not mention any). AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I did not misread. "Domed ends to barrel-shaped roofs or complex domes cut into by other roofs are excluded and so, for brevity, are structures never actually built" means the following categories are excluded "for brevity": 1.) structures never actually built and 2.) "Domed ends to barrel-shaped roofs or complex domes cut into by other roofs". In any case the paper, as the author points out, considers iron domes and not domes per se. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, the position of "for brevity" in "and so, for brevity, are structures never actually built" means it refers to the word "so", meaning "also", meaning it refers to just the structures never actually built. The others are excluded not for brevity but because they do not meet the "purest form" dome definition. You are right that the paper considers iron domes, but these sentences I excerpted are not limited to iron domes and are about the dome form in general. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "In the mind of an engineer a dome is structure with a very distinct behavior. It is a synclastically-curved, three dimensional surface, primarily stressed in compression under its own weight and applied loading, and made of a material resistant to such forces (usually masonry or some form of concrete). Circumferential tension forces that may occur at the base of a dome are usually resisted by a tension ring. However, a dictionary definition of the word dome may be less precise. For instance, in a typical concise dictionary a dome is defined as: -
 * 'dome, n., & v.t.l. Stately building, mansion, (poet.); rounded vault as roof, with circular, elliptical or polygonal base, large cupola; natural vault, canopy, (of sky, trees, etc.); rounded summit of hill etc,; hence domed, domic(al), dome-like, domy. 2. v.t. Cover with, shape as, dome. [F. f. It. duomo cathedral, dome, (& direct) f. L domus house]'
 * In the past the stately building often had a masonry dome whereas, due to the rapid expansion in structural systems that have become available in the 20th century, this is now less likely to be the case. This has led to many modern large-span structures being described as domes when their primary load-bearing system does not exactly accord with the engineering definition. Some actually work almost entirely in tension, although they still may be more or less dome-shaped (for example the Millenium Dome in Greenwich). This paper, therefore, addresses the conflict that now exists between the precise engineering and more general dictionary definitions of the term dome by reviewing the development of various types of lightweight and tensile domes during the 20th century.", John Chilton, "When is a dome not a dome? - 20th-century lightweight and tensile domes", in "Domes 2000: Papers from the Annual Symposium of the Society of Architectural Historians of Great Britain", page 131. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Another source that in no way conflicts with the "vault with radial symmetry" definition and again demonstrates that domes are a much broader category than suggested by the inadequate phrase "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere", GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The "synclastically-curved" part of this definition would exclude cones as domes. About the adequacy of "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere", would you be satisfied with "normally similar to a hemisphere" instead? AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The "synclastically-curved" part of this definition is explicitly applicable "In the mind of an engineer" alone. The OED definition quoted here gives absolutely no preference to hemispherical domes being "normal" over the elliptical or polygonal bases it mentions, so there is no justification for alleging that plan is dome is more "normal" than any other. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We aren't talking about "hemispherical", we're talking about "similar" to a hemisphere. Yes, the definition is an engineering definition, but it is compatible with the "similar" to a hemisphere idea for domes and incompatible with cones as domes. The dictionary definition cited also says that domes are "rounded roofs" on what may not be a rounded plan, such as a polygon. This means that the word "rounded" refers to the vertical section, rather than the horizontal. So that dictionary's definition would also exclude cones but would include other shapes "similar" in various degrees to a hemisphere. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "A vaulted structure having a circular or polygonal plan and usually the form of a portion of a sphere, so constructed so as to exert an equal thrust in all directions.", Francis D. K. Ching, Mark Jarzombek, Vikramaditya Prakash, "A Global History of Architecture", page 761. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yet another source that shows the words "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" is quite wrong. A sphere can be polygonal in neither upper or lower halves. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Clearly this source believes that a dome can have both a "polygonal plan" and have a "form of a portion of a sphere", so I would say that this source supports use of the words "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere". The word "similar" is key and reasonable people can disagree about what amount of deviation can still be called "similar". I would say a disco ball could reasonably be called a sphere or similar to a sphere. More relevantly, geodesic domes can be similar to hemispheres but made entirely of flat or straight elements, and so polygonal in section and plan. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I argue that "polygonal plan" is exclusive of hemispherical domes and man polygonal domes are nothing whatever like spheres or hemispheres. See picture at right, a polygonal dome that looks nothing like a hemisphere, hollow or otherwise. GPinkerton (talk) 04:39, 15 July 2020 (UTC) .مقابر باغ گنبد سبز قم. 05.jpg
 * Again, we aren't talking about "hemispherical", we are talking about "similar" to a hemisphere. An octagonal cloister vault with a semicircular vertical section is similar to a hemisphere. Even a dome on a polygonal base with a pointed-curve vertical section, like that of Florence Cathedral, is similar to a hemisphere (but not as similar, obviously). The picture you posted shows a pyramidal roof. I agree it does not look similar to a hemisphere. It would not be called a dome under many of the definitions posted here. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "A domical vault is not a true dome. A dome is a vault with a segmental, semicircular, bulbous, or pointed section rising from a circular base.", James Stevens Curl, "Classical Architecture: An Introduction to Its Vocabulary and Essentials, with a Select Glossary of Terms", page 220. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Curl's definition is the one I propose to use. Domical vaults are another thing again and should not be confused with domes, which are vaults with radial symmetry. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This definition actually conflicts with the one you proposed from the Oxford dictionary. Notice that Curl did not mention polygonal plans in this definition (which was included in the Oxford dictionary definition below). I don't think we should try to pick one definition when reliable sources use different definitions. We should acknowledge that the differences exist and write about them in the best we can within Wikipedia's policies, being careful not to engage in our own synthesis. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This definition does not attempt to define domes per se. It relates exclusively to domes in classical architecture, which narrows the field to basically hemispherical domes on aesthetic reasons. But the concept of dome is far from limited to classical architecture and should not be represented otherwise on Wikipedia. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The source is about classical architecture, but the sentences excerpted are about domes in general. And classical architecture also includes some very famous non-hemispherical domes, such as Nero's Domus Aurea (which is only similar to a hemisphere), so that limitation wouldn't really avoid the issue. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "*Cupola, essentially a species of *vault, constructed on a circular, elliptical, or polygonal *plan, bulbous, segmental, semicircular, or pointed in vertical *section.", James Stevens Curl and Susan Wilson, "The Oxford Dictionary of Architecture", page 236. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Curl's definition is the one I propose to use, being the one which actually written in a dictionary whose function is to define architectural terms and is also more recent than nearly all the sources quoted here. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is the one from the Oxford dictionary but it is not the only one here from a dictionary of architectural terms. Although also by Curl (and Susan Wilson), it differs significantly from his other definition above by also including elliptical and polygonal plans. The other Curl definition was limited to vaults "rising from a circular base". AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That is because this is the entry for "cupola" not "dome". No-one is arguing cupolas can or can't have elliptical or polygonal plans; we are speaking about domes. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, this is the entry for "Dome", not "Cupola". The word "cupola" just happens to be the first word in the definition for "dome", as a synonym. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "A hemispherical vault supported by either a circular wall or, over a square space, by squinches or pendentives placed in the corners, the former transforming the square into an octagon, the latter into a circle.", Richard Krautheimer, Slobodan Ćurčić, "Early Christian and Byzantine Architecture", page 518. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This definition might be suitable for Roman building but it hardly covers the variety of domes that exist or have existed in the present day. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course I agree, but you can see that "dome" and "hemisphere" are so closely linked that one is said to be the other in an academic work's glossary! Although maybe it is significant that this definition excludes "inflexed arch domes" as domes, despite the dome(?) depicted at Al-Khazneh in Petra. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, this specialized work does not even attempt to arrive a general definition of "dome". It deals with Roman architecture, which, as we know, favoured broadly hemispherical domes on a circular base. Wikipedia need not confine itself to domes as used two millennia ago as a definition of the concept "dome". GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If the source wanted to give a definition limited to the Roman era, it would have said that. And as I mentioned elsewhere, Roman domes were not just hemispheres, so even if this were a definition limited just to Roman architecture, we would still have the same issue of imperfect definitions. This excerpt comes from the glossary of the book, which includes lots of general architectural terms. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Dome: spherical-shaped vault, usually in the form of a hemisphere over a round floor plan.", Norbert Nussbaum, "German Gothic Church Architecture", page 260. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This definition might be suitable for medieval German building but it hardly covers the variety of domes that exist or have existed in the present day. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think most medieval German domes were octagonal cloister vaults, actually, but I could be wrong. There were definitely cones in the Middle Ages, though, such as the one over the Pisa Baptistery, and this dome definition would exclude them. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This definition of domes, as I have said, treats of domes in German Gothic, not in general, and this limited definition has no applications outside the narrow subject of the book: German Gothic churches. It is not proper to include it as part of general definition of "dome". GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The source is about German Gothic churches (and German domes were also not all hemispheres), but the sentence is about domes in general. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "A dome is a convex rounded roof covering the whole or a part of a building with a base on the horizontal plane which is circular, elliptical or polygonal. In vertical section the dome may be hemispherical, partly elliptical, saucer-shaped, or formed like a bulb (the so-called onion domes to be seen in eastern Europe).", ''Ian McNeil, "An Encyclopedia of the History of Technology", page 879. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yet another source that shows the words "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" is quite wrong, as if more were needed. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? This definition doesn't conflict with "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" at all, in my view. But then, I would accept an octagonal cloister vault as similar to a hemisphere. And this definition seems to conflict with the Oxford dictionary definition in excluding cones, pyramids, and inflexed arch shells of revolution. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Where does it say anything about a dome having to be hollow? Where does it say it has to be anything like a hemisphere? "Convex" and "rounded" is as far as the definition goes. Conical, tented, and polygonal domes are all included, shapes impossible to fit within the "hollow upper half of a sphere". See illustration of not-hollow dome at right. Sanchi_Stupa_number_2_KSP_3660.jpg
 * A solid mound is not a "roof". The use of "rounded roof" along with the inclusion of "polygonal" base means that "rounded" refers to the vertical section, so cones are not included. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Dome. Vault of even curvature on a circular base. The section can be segmental, semicircular, pointed, or bulbous.", "The Penguin Dictionary of Architecture", page 126.'' AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ditto. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that bulbous domes are the least like "the hollow upper half of a sphere" and it stretches even my imagination a bit much to say they are similar. However, this dictionary of architecture clearly differs from the Oxford dictionary definition. Domes with elliptical bases are excluded, for example. It is actually close to Curl's other definition, ironically. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a narrower definition than the Oxford Dictionary's, but its inclusion of pointed domes demonstrates that the idea of "like a hemisphere" is wrong. Hemispheres do not have points. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC) Mil-e Radkan.jpg
 * Hemispheres do not have points, but a shape can be "similar" to a hemisphere and have a point, like that of the Dome of the Rock. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "A vaulted structure having a circular plan and usually the form of a portion of a sphere, so constructed as to exert an equal thrust in all directions.", Francis D. K. Ching, "Visual Dictionary of Architecture", page 62. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ditto. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This source states that domes are "usually" hemispheres, which is not at all in conflict with Dodge's point that common root of the disparate definitions is a "hemispherical or similar" shape, although some domes deviate more than others. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This narrow definition does not invalidate the broader definition given in the Oxford Dictionary and is twenty years older. Dodge wrote decades ago and was therefore unable to use the Oxford definition or assess it in her postgraduate essay. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you agree that the definition has had many variants over time and there may not be a consensus on what is and is not a dome? If so, I think we can agree to disagree about our personal preferences and try to achieve consensus on the language for the article. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Dome, in architecture, hemispherical structure evolved from the arch, usually forming a ceiling or roof.", The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, "Encyclopaedia Britannica", "Dome". AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Not exactly the best source! GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You don't like the Encyclopaedia Britannica? Don't we want to see what tertiary sources have to say on this? It definitely agrees with "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere". AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Britannica is often worse than useless for architecture and is very often extremely narrowly-focused, not to say bigoted, in its approach to history of the arts. Its cramped definition is much older and less authoritative than Curl's. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It isn't currently cited in the article. It is included here for discussion purposes. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Dome (architecture), a roof or vault, usually hemispherical in form.", Microsoft Encarta, "Dome (architecture)".
 * Not exactly the best source! GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have fond memories of Encarta! And I am trying to cast as wide a net as possible for this discussion. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between casting a wide net and scraping a barrel! GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Not to me! AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * "Definition of dome (Entry 1 of 2) 1: archaic : a stately building : MANSION 2: a large hemispherical roof or ceiling 3: a natural formation or structure that resembles the dome or cupola of a building", Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "Dome". AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC) AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Not exactly the best source and not capable of trumping a dictionary of architecture! GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the variety of definitions in the specialized academic works and the fact, mentioned by the sources shown here, that there are varieties/problems with definitions mean that we should not be taking the Oxford dictionary of architecture's definition as gospel, especially when other dictionaries of architecture have significantly different definitions. However, I agree that the Oxford source is a good one and its definition needs to be considered. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think we should follow the most authoritative, most recent, most specialized, and most general work and use its - the broadest - definition, and not try to insert any requirement for a dome to be hemispherical, hollow, or "normal". GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think we need to impose consensus where there is disagreement. I think we should include the Oxford definition in the context of the diversity of definitions and how those have changed/developed over time, as best we can without synthesis or original research. No doubt the lede needs to change, but the lede should follow/summarize the content of the body of the article, so we should start there. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * 2) "misleading suggestion that the Renaissance was not centuries before the early modern period" - Disagree. The language "spread from Italy in the early modern period" does not mean that the Renaissance started in Italy in the early modern period. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It means that Renasissance architecture spread from Italy in the early modern period. This is false. Renaissance architecture was in may parts of Europe long before the early modern period. Why single out Italy in the lead at all? Why not mention Turkey or Iran or Spain? GPinkerton (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We are talking about domes, not Renaissance style in general ("The domes of European Renaissance architecture spread from Italy in the early modern period, ..."). See source here. Can you point to an example of an Italian Renaissance-style dome outside of Italy prior to the early modern period? Italy is mentioned in the lede but not Turkey or Iran or Spain because the lede is trying to summarize the body of the article concisely and there is a subsection about Italian Renaissance domes and another about domes in the early modern period (and this is because, despite the overlap, sources often separate the Renaissance as its own category). AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Can you point to an example of an Italian Renaissance-style dome outside of Italy prior to the early modern period?" Why would such a structure be called an Italian Renaissance dome if not in Italy? The point is that were domes all over Europe at the time of Renaissance, and the wording obscures that fact. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The key word there was "style": "Italian Renaissance-style dome", not "Italian Renaissance dome". Domes were all over Europe at the time of the Renaissance because they were all over Europe during the Middle Ages, but the renaissance style of domes spread outside of Italy later. This is consistent with the sources I have found and the examples I am aware of. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The phrasing I would prefer would be "the Renaissance, beginning in Italy, saw a revival of hemispherical domes on ancient Roman models which became more widely employed during the Early Modern period. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Lets just make sure any changes are well sourced and the lede summarizes what is in the body of the article. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * 3) "misleading removal of Islamic architecture from the lead" - Disagree. Islamic architecture was not removed. The language included it in this sentence (check the link): "Dome structures were common in both Byzantine architecture and Sasanian architecture, which influenced that of the rest of Europe and Islam, respectively, in the Middle Ages." AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Without clicking on the link, it appears Islamic architecture is not mentioned. Islam and Islamic architecture are not the same things and should not be presented as such. GPinkerton (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not an ideal sentence, but I was trying to retain what you had contributed while also mentioning the many non-Byzantine and non-Islamic medieval European domes from that subsection in the body of the article. How about "Dome structures were common in Byzantine architecture and in Persia, which each influenced the domes of neighboring states in the Middle Ages." AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd really prefer if tying down to particular territories and polities (i.e. "Persia") were avoided and the important point that Islamic architecture grew from the traditions of Byzantine and Sasanian architecture should be stressed. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's understandable, although in this context I take "Byzantine" to also refer to a territory/polity and not to a style. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not appropriate in architecture. See picture at right. GPinkerton (talk) 04:39, 15 July 2020 (UTC) Martorana_(Palermo)_-_Kuppel_msu2017-0148.jpg
 * A dome that has been influenced by Byzantine architecture is not literally a Byzantine dome. And as you can see by the use of squinches, there were other influences on that dome as well. I don't think it should be included in the History of Roman and Byzantine domes article outside of the "Influence" section, if you were suggesting that. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * 4) "misleading suggestion Islamic and Byzantine architecture was somehow exclusive of Europe" - Disagree. The sentence is "Dome structures were common in both Byzantine architecture and Sasanian architecture, which influenced that of the rest of Europe and Islam, respectively, in the Middle Ages." Byzantine and Sasanian architecture does exclude much of Europe in the Middle Ages. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The point is that you have interpolated a suggestion that "Europe" and "Islam" do not overlap. This is false. Sasanian architecture does not overlap at all with the middle ages, so it is worthless to insert this bizarre statement. The centre of the Byzantine empire was Europe. There is no reason to mention Europe here at all. Why not mention the other continents? Instead, it is more sensible to mention the types of architecture, not try to arbitrarily divide them by continent. Why mention Europe and Islamic architecture as though they were somehow separate or opposed? Many of the more impressive mediaeval domes in Europe are Islamic architecture. GPinkerton (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Lets stick to strict interpretations of sentences, rather than our perceptions of what is suggested by them. I think the sentence is literally accurate, but I proposed an edit above that does not mention Europe while still acting as a mention of the "Arabic and Western European domes" section of the body of the article. There are no perfectly consistent subdivisions of the history here that do not have some overlap, unfortunately. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Why are we now introducing the words "Arabic" or "Western European" when "Arabic architecture" is not really a thing and when the western parts of Europe were Arabic-speaking?
 * It seems to be the least worst option for that portion of the history. The problem is that "Islamic" overlaps with Persian/Iranian domes and Ottoman domes and Mughal domes in India, with are each better addressed separately in their own articles, as most of their sources do. Simply using "Middle Ages" as the frame has the same problem, since Roman/Byzantine domes are best understood together and overlap that period, as do Persian/Iranian. The "Medieval Arabic and Western European" frame is to accommodate those exclusions. Also, there was so much interaction between those two groups during that time that it works better with them together than separate. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So why include the two together? "Arabic" includes many of the medieval domes of western Europe, so the term "Arabic" is redundant in those cases, while the "Islamic" domes are usually the ones in the regions in which Islamic architecture had its genesis: the Mashriq and the Mahgreb under the first caliphates but also encompasses those Islamic domes in western Europe. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A little redundancy in the title seems minor to me. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

In addition, the language you proposed has the following problems: AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A) You introduced a definition of domes from a new source in the lede, rather than summarizing the body of the article in the lede as policy states. The actual definition of domes is unsettled and your changes ignore that in favor of your source. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What definition of domes is in dispute and what source explains this? Why is the entirely unsourced and misleading "similar to the hollow upper half of a sphere" somehow more useful than the one sourced to a reliable source whose sole purpose is to define architectural terms. GPinkerton (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not unsourced. Please see the sources I listed above. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have seen the source above. An overwhelming plurality of them disagree with this idea that domes are hemispherical, particularly the more technical (i.e. architectural) sources and the ones that do not deal exclusively with Roman domes. If the sentence is sourced to those sources, it's misrepresenting those sources. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The particular source for that sentence, which itself references a few different sources and definitions, is the second one listed above by Hazel Dodge. It is not an editor's synthesis of multiple sources. About the plurality of sources above, I count 16 sources listed, of which 8 mention "sphere" or "spherical" or "hemisphere" as a key part of their definition (rather than as just an example, as Hourihane or McNeil do), with 10 either doing that or conveying the same idea using other words, such as "doubly curved" or "synclastically-curved". The lede should summarize/describe sourced text in the body of the article, rather than having its own source found nowhere else in the article, which was my objection here. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Mainstone's and Krautheimer's definitions, which are pertinent to Roman architecture exclusively, appear in a non-peer-reviewed essay on Graeco-Roman architecture and giving such definitions pride of place in Wikipedia's definition or using this text to support a narrower interpretation than Curl's is completely undue, in my view. Domes were built by other people than the Romans and outside the period covered by Dodge four decades ago. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned elsewhere, those definitions are not exclusive to Roman architecture, are not the only definitions mentioned by Dodge, and Dodge is one of the only sources to address the issue in any substantive way. Other sources I have found mention the issues in passing, so in terms of sources that describe the definitional problems of the word "dome", it's the best source found so far. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * B) You introduced details in the lede (relating to shape of plan and vertical section) that were better left to the body of the article. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The plan and vertical section of dome is what makes dome a dome. Domes are defined by their plans and vertical sections, and definitions need to go in the lead. Not some vague (and wrong) claim that domes are somehow spherical. Or resemble spherical shapes, if you prefer. GPinkerton (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Please see the sources I listed above. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * vide supra. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

 * C) You removed mention of medieval European domes outside the Byzantine Empire. AmateurEditor (talk) 11:36, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to mention medieval European domes as somehow separate from Byzantine or Islamic architecture. What domes might these be that some deserve mention in the lead, alone of any content or time period? Why do we not mention the vastly more numerous domes of Asia and Africa during Late Antiquity? Why not mention the numerous early modern of Iran? This is singling out of mediaeval Europe is completely undue, given the paucity of domes in medieval Europe outside the Byzantine and Islamic spheres. What non-Byzantine and non-Islamic domes are you thinking of? GPinkerton (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The reason to mention them is that they are mentioned in the body of the article in the "Arabic and Western European domes", which are the domes I had in mind writing that sentence. There are a great many domes from medieval non-Byzantine/non-Islamic Europe, although they are not well known. However, I proposed a different sentence above that does not mention the word "Europe", if you insist on that. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Apart from a few Romanesque copies of Byzantine and Islamic buildings, I can't see any examples that might fit the bill in that section. The Templar churches and the copy of San Vitale at Aachen is all that's there, and, well, they're derivative of Byzantine architecture and Islamic architecture. GPinkerton (talk) 01:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There are literally hundreds of examples of medieval Romanesque domes alone, distinct from Byzantine and Islamic architecture, but they aren't popularly known. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This is covered in a different article though, and this lead is supposed to summarize this article, not others. GPinkerton (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is also mentioned in this article, so it is appropriate to be mentioned in the lede here. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

A sentence that may have problems
The following sentence occurs, some emphasized:

 * The ellipsoidal dome is a surface formed by the rotation around a vertical axis of a semi-ellipse. Like other "rotational domes" formed by the rotation of a curve around a vertical axis, ellipsoidal domes have circular bases and horizontal sections and are a type of "circular dome" for that reason.

Right off, the Joe and Rika Mansueto Library has an elliptical base, 240 feet by 120 feet, not circular. That's an elliptical base, of equation x2/120 + y2/60 = 1.

Input?

dino (talk) 16:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

 * dino, "ellipsoidal dome" is used to refer to a circular-base dome with a half-ellipse vertical section. The term for a dome with an elliptical-base would be "elliptical dome" or "oval dome", (the "oval dome" section mentions elliptical base domes). AmateurEditor (talk) 08:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dome


text:
Frazier Chorus

Frazier Chorus were an English pop group from Brighton, England. They were known for their unconventional instrumentation, including synthesizers, trumpets, flutes and clarinets, as well as frontman Tim Freeman's "soft, heavily accented ... talk-singing" and sarcastically witty lyrics.

History
Frazier Chorus was formed in Brighton, England, by Tim Freeman (the brother of actors Martin Freeman and Jamie Freeman, on vocals and keyboards), Michéle Allardyce (percussion), Kate Holmes (flute) and Chris Taplin (clarinet, programming). Original names for the band included both Fishing For Clouds and Plop!, but the band eventually settled on Frazier Chorus, a phrase they'd seen on a jacket for the Frazier College football team's cheerleaders in the United States.

The band first signed to British indie record label 4AD and released the single "Sloppy Heart" in 1987. Shortly afterwards, they moved to Virgin Records and achieved chart success with a string of melodic pop songs taken from their 1989 debut album, Sue. Allardyce was eventually dismissed from the band.

Their second album, Ray, followed in 1991, and its singles were remixed by a number of top remixers, including Paul Oakenfold, Chad Jackson and Youth. Following the album's release, the band was let go from Virgin after the label was purchased by EMI and began purging a number of its artists; subsequently, Holmes and Taplin fired Freeman before ultimately disbanding entirely. Holmes later moved into electronica via the bands Sirenes, Technique, and Client.

Freeman took several years off and re-emerged in the mid-1990s, resurrecting the band name with permission from Holmes and Taplin. In 1995, Freeman released a mini-album as Frazier Chorus, Wide Awake, which did not reach the UK Albums Chart. He later released Monkey Spunk, a collection of five demos recorded prior to the sessions for Wide Awake, available exclusively via the band's website.

After leaving the band, Holmes became a member of the synthpop band Technique, before joining Dubstar's Sarah Blackwood in the electronic band CLIEͶT in the 2000s.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Frazier Chorus


text:
Trimer

Trimer may refer to:

 * Trimer (chemistry), a reaction product composed of three identical molecules
 * Protein trimer, a compound of three macromolecules non-covalently bound
 * Efimov trimer, a weakly bound quantum mechanical state of three identical particles
 * Trimer, Ille-et-Vilaine, a commune in France

title: Trimer


text:
Arba Seymour Van Valkenburgh

Arba Seymour Van Valkenburgh (August 22, 1862 – November 4, 1944) was a United States circuit judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit and previously was a United States District Court of the United States District Court for the Western District of Missouri.

Van Valkenburgh was nominated by President Calvin Coolidge on March 18, 1925, to a new seat created by 43 Stat. 1116; He was confirmed by the United States Senate on March 18, 1925, and received commission the same day. Assumed senior status on May 1, 1933. Van Valkenburgh's service was terminated on November 4, 1944, due to death.

Education and career
Born on August 22, 1862, in Syracuse, New York, Van Valkenburg received an Artium Baccalaureus degree in 1884 from the University of Michigan and read law in 1888. He entered private practice in Kansas City, Missouri from 1888 to 1897. He was an Assistant United States Attorney for the Western District of Missouri from 1898 to 1905. He was the United States Attorney for the Western District of Missouri from 1905 to 1910.

Federal judicial service
Van Valkenburgh was nominated by President William Howard Taft on June 14, 1910, to a seat on the United States District Court for the Western District of Missouri vacated by Judge John Finis Philips. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on June 21, 1910, and received his commission the same day. His service terminated on March 18, 1925, due to his elevation to the Eighth Circuit.

Van Valkenburgh was nominated by President Calvin Coolidge on March 18, 1925, to the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit, to a new seat authorized by 43 Stat. 1116. He was confirmed by the Senate on March 18, 1925, and received his commission the same day. He assumed senior status on May 1, 1933. His service terminated on November 4, 1944, due to his death.

Notable District Court cases

 * Smith vs. Kansas City Title & Trust Company, in which the Federal Farm Loan Act was sustained and the creation of land banks held valid, this ruling being affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court (255 U.S. 180).
 * Missouri vs. Holland, sustaining the Migratory Bird Treaty between the United States and Great Britain and the Act of Congress enforcing it (258 Fed. 479, affirmed 252 U.S. 416).
 * Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad vs. United States, involving the interpretation of the Federal Safety Appliance Act (affirmed 237 U.S. 410).
 * United States vs. Emery, Bird, Thayer Dry Goods Company, involving the interpretation of the Federal Corporation Tax Law of 1909 (198 Fed. 242, affirmed 237 U.S. 28).
 * St. Joseph Railway, Light & Power Company, vs. Public Service Commissions, which defined certain important principles of valuation of public utilities and the regulation of rates by public authorities (268 Fed. 267).

During World War I Van Valkenburg presided over a number of high-profile political cases. Van Valkenburg was the presiding judge at the trial of a young syndicalist activist from Kansas City named Earl Browder for refusal to register for the draft and conspiracy to interfere with same. Browder, later the General Secretary of the Communist Party USA, was sentenced by Van Valkenburgh to two years imprisonment, which he served at Bates County Jail in Butler, Missouri and Leavenworth Penitentiary.

Van Valkenburgh was also the judge who sentenced Carl Glesser, a naturalized American citizen of German birth and publisher of the Missouri Staats-Zeitung, to five years in Leavenworth after Glesser had pleaded guilty to violating the Espionage Act for thirteen articles he had published. Glesser began serving his sentence on April 30, 1918.

Van Valkenburgh presided over the May 1918 trial of socialist activist Rose Pastor Stokes for alleged violation of the Espionage Act through speaking against war profiteering. Although Stokes proclaimed that she had "at all times recognized the cause of our entrance into the war" and "at no time opposed the war," Stokes was found guilty at trial and Van Valkenburg delivered a draconian sentence of 10 years' imprisonment, declaring Stokes to be "part of a systematic program to create discontent with the war" and to advance the cause of revolution.

Notable Court of Appeals cases

 * Wolf Bros. vs. Hamilton Brown Shoe Company, viewing important principles of the law of trademark and unfair competition (206 Fed. 611, affirmed 240 U.S. 251)
 * United States vs. Utah Power & Light Company, involving public lands and water power rights (three opinions: 209 Fed. 554; 230 Fed. 328; 242 Fed. 924).
 * Whitesides vs. Norton, which involved riparian rights and incidentally, the boundary line between Minnesota and Wisconsin (205 Fed. 5).

title: Arba Seymour Van Valkenburgh


text:
DeWitt High School

DeWitt High School may refer to:

 * DeWitt High School (Arkansas) – De Witt, Arkansas
 * DeWitt High School (Michigan) – DeWitt, Michigan
 * DeWitt Clinton High School – Bronx, New York
 * Jamesville-DeWitt High School – DeWitt, New York

title: DeWitt High School


text:
List of rivers of the United States: U

A - B - C - D - E - F - G - H - I - J - K - L - M - N - O - P - Q - R - S - T - U - V - W - XYZ

This is a list of rivers in the United States that have names starting with the letter U. For the main page, which includes links to listings by state, see List of rivers in the United States.

U

 * Ugashik River - Alaska
 * Umatilla River - Oregon
 * Umpachene River - Massachusetts
 * Umpqua River - Oregon
 * Unadilla River - New York
 * Unalakleet River - Alaska
 * Uncompahgre River - Colorado
 * Union River - Maine
 * Unuk River - Alaska
 * Upper Ammonoosuc River - New Hampshire
 * Upper Iowa River - Minnesota, Iowa
 * Upper Tamarack River - Wisconsin, Minnesota
 * Us-kab-wan-ka River - Minnesota
 * Usquepaug River - Rhode Island
 * Utukok River - Alaska
 * Uwharrie River - North Carolina

title: List of rivers of the United States: U


text:
Tirschenreuth

Tirschenreuth (Northern Bavarian: Dirschnrad, Diascharad) is the capital city of the district of Tirschenreuth. It is located in the northeast of Bavaria, very close to the Czech-Bavarian border.

Geography
Tirschenreuth is located in the north of Upper Palatinate administrative region, around 75 miles north of Regensburg and 35 miles east of Bayreuth.

Incorporations
The following villages were incorporated in Tirschenreuth
 * Großklenau
 * Kleinklenau
 * Brunn
 * Gründlbach
 * Haid
 * Höfen
 * Hohenwald
 * Kleinkonreuth
 * Lengenfeld
 * Lohnsitz
 * Marchaney
 * Matzersreuth
 * Mooslohe
 * Pilmersreuth a. d. Straße
 * Pilmersreuth a. Wald
 * Rosall
 * Rothenbürg
 * Sägmühle
 * Wondreb
 * Wondrebhammer
 * Zeidlweid
 * Ziegelhütte

History
Until the German Mediatisation in 1803, Tirschenreuth was part of the possessions of the Cistercian Abbey Waldsassen. It received its town charter from Waldsassen's abbot Johann V. in 1364. Originally the Waldsassen Abbey and its possessions were immediately subordinate to the Holy Roman Empire. After this state was ended in the 16th century, Tirschenreuth first became part of the Electorate of the Palatinate, then part of Bavaria. It became capital of the district of the same name. In 1972, when the segmenting of bavarian districts was reformed, the district of Tirschenreuth was expanded with the former district of Kemnath.

Economy
One well-known company that resides in Tirschenreuth is Hamm AG, a manufacturer of road rollers.

Tirschenreuth was famous for fine quality porcelain and vintage pieces are highly sought after by collectors, but its porcelain factory shut down years ago.

Twin towns – sister cities
Hirschau is member of the so called "Kaolinstädtepartnerschaft". It connects cities, which are connected to the mineral Kaolin. The partnership was established in November 2004. Aside Hirschau the members of this partnership are the bavarian cities Hirschau und Schnaittenbach, from Saxony Königswartha, Sornzig-Ablaß and the city Mügeln, Nová Role from Czech Republic and Nowogrodziec from Poland.

Beside the Kaolinstädtepartnerschaft Tirschenreuth is twinned with:
 * 🇫🇷 La Ville-du-Bois, France (2001)
 * 🇨🇿 Planá, Czech Republic (2008)
 * 🇩🇪 Lauf an der Pegnitz, Germany (2011)
 * 🇺🇸 Santa Fe Springs, California, United States

Notable residents

 * Arnold Kriegstein, German, was born there in 1949
 * Johann Andreas Schmeller, Germanist, was born there in 1785

title: Tirschenreuth


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Fresh frozen plasma

Fresh frozen plasma (FFP) is a blood product made from the liquid portion of whole blood. It is used to treat conditions in which there are low blood clotting factors (INR > 1.5) or low levels of other blood proteins. It may also be used as the replacement fluid in plasma exchange. Using ABO compatible plasma, while not required, may be recommended. Use as a volume expander is not recommended. It is administered by slow injection into a vein.

Side effects include nausea and itchiness. Rarely there may be allergic reactions, blood clots, or infections. It is unclear if use during pregnancy or breastfeeding is safe for the baby. Greater care should be taken in people with protein S deficiency, IgA deficiency, or heart failure. Fresh frozen plasma is made up of a complex mixture of water, proteins, carbohydrates, fats, and vitamins. When frozen it lasts about a year.

Plasma first came into medical use during the Second World War. It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines. In the United Kingdom it costs about £30 per unit. A number of other versions also exist including plasma frozen within 24 hours after phlebotomy, cryoprecipitate reduced plasma, thawed plasma, and solvent detergent plasma.

Definition
In the United States it refers to the fluid portion of one unit of whole blood that has been centrifuged, separated, and frozen solid at -18 °C or colder within eight hours of collection from whole blood donation or was otherwise collected via apheresis device. The phrase "FFP" is often used to mean any transfused plasma product. The other commonly transfused plasma, plasma frozen within 24 hours after phlebotomy (PF24), has similar indications as those for FFP. PF24 has slightly lower levels of Factors V and VIII than FFP. PF24 is more commonly used than FFP in the United States.

Medical uses
There are few specific indications for FFP. These generally are limited to the treatment of deficiencies of coagulation proteins for which specific factor concentrates are unavailable or undesirable. A usual dose of plasma is 10–20 mL/kg recipient weight.

Indications for the use of FFP include the following:
 * Replacement of isolated factor deficiencies: FFP is used to treat rare bleeding disorders when specific factor concentrates are not available. FFP is the usual treatment for factor V deficiency.
 * Reversal of warfarin effect: Warfarin.svgnts who are anticoagulated with warfarin are deficient in the functional vitamin K dependent coagulation factors II, VII, IX, and X, as well as proteins C and S. These functional deficiencies can be reversed by the administration of vitamin K. For anticoagulated patients who are actively bleeding or who require emergency surgery, prothrombin complex concentrate (ideally, four factor PCCs) should be used if available. FFP/PF24/thawed plasma should only be used if more effective alternative treatments are not available. The ASA task force recommends starting with 5–8 mL/kg of FFP for warfarin reversal and rechecking laboratory values.
 * Use in antithrombin III deficiency: FFP can be used as a source of antithrombin III in patients who are deficient of this inhibitor and are undergoing surgery or who require heparin for treatment of thrombosis. There are purified, human derived, as well as recombinant forms of antithrombin III available in the US.
 * Treatment of immunodeficiencies: FFP is useful in infants with secondary immunodeficiency associated with severe protein-losing enteropathy and in whom total parenteral nutrition is ineffectual. FFP also can be used as a source of immunoglobulin for children and adults with humoral immunodeficiency. However, the development of a purified immune globulin for intravenous use (i.e., IVIG) has largely replaced fresh frozen plasma
 * Treatment of thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura: Therapeutic plasma exchange with FFP/PF24 or thawed plasma as the replacement fluid is considered the treatment of choice for patients with proven or suspected thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura (TTP).

FFP is not recommended unless there is ongoing bleeding or there is a significant blood clotting problem. That is, FFP is not used in people to reverse warfarin if there is no bleeding, even for an INR > 9 unless they need urgent surgery. It is also not used in elective surgery, or non-emergency surgery.

Thawed plasma is made from FFP or PF24 and kept refrigerated (at 1–6 °C) after thawing can be stored for 5 days post thaw.

Prophylactic plasma transfusions might have an effect for people with a blood clotting disorder and receive an invasive procedure.

For people with a blood clotting disorder and receive a planned invasive non-cardiac procedure it is not certain if prophylactic plasma transfusions improve all-cause mortality up to 30 days, major bleeding within 24 hours, number of transfusions per participants within one week, number of individuals requiring a transfusion within one week and serious adverse events measured by plasma-related complications within 24 hours. Different triggers for fresh frozen plasma may have little to no effect on major bleeding within 24 hours and serious adverse events measured by plasma transfusion-related complications within 24 hours. Furthermore, different triggers for fresh frozen plasma may reduce the number of individuals requiring a transfusion within 7 days.

Risks
The risks of FFP include disease transmission, anaphylactoid reactions, and excessive intravascular volume (transfusion associated circulatory overload (TACO)), as well as transfusion related acute lung injury (TRALI). Risks of transfusion transmitted infections are similar to that of whole blood and red blood cells.

Chemistry
FFP is made by centrifugation of whole blood or apheresis device followed by freezing and preservation.

Frequency of use
The use of plasma and its products has evolved over a period of four decades. The use of FFP has increased tenfold in the United States between the years 2000 and 2010 and has reached almost 2 million units annually. This trend may be attributable to multiple factors, possibly including decreased availability of whole blood due to widespread acceptance of the concept of component therapy.

Alternatives

Evidence indicates that other plasma components (e.g., single-donor plasma) that do not meet the criteria of FFP may have adequate levels of coagulation factors and are suitable for patients in whom FFP is indicated. Single-donor plasma is efficacious in the treatment of mild deficiencies of stable clotting factors. It also is of value in treatment of multiple deficiencies as in reversal of warfarin effects or in liver disease.

Safe and effective alternative treatment often exists so that FFP is no longer the therapy of choice in many conditions. Cryoprecipitate or fibrinogen concentrates should be used when fibrinogen is needed. For treatment of hemophilia A, recombinant factor VIII concentrates are available. For treatment of severe hemophilia B, recombinant factor IX concentrates are available.

Crystalloid or colloid solutions such as human serum albumin or plasma protein fraction, are preferable to FFP for volume replacement.

For nutritional support, amino acid solutions and dextrose are available. The most important alternative to the use of FFP is a comprehensive program of blood conservation. This includes measures such as intraoperative cell salvage and the realization that in many patients normovolemic anemia is not an indication for transfusion.

title: Fresh frozen plasma


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Talk:Typhoon Odessa

Merge?
Merge? We gotta have an article to merge to first. 1985 Pacific typhoon season don't exist yet.

E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 00:39, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

So the article obviously stays until 1985 Pacific typhoon season is created. When that happens, if Odessa has not been expanded, it's merged. TrafficBenBoy 19:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Typhoon Odessa


text: User:Cormacolinde

title: User:Cormacolinde


text:
Talk:Typhoon Yunya (1991)

Merger
Why does this article exist? Is there something extremely notable about this system I didn't see? Hurricanehink 20:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

 * It is extraordinarily notable in conjunction with the eruption of Pinatubo. Although not really notable on its own, the amount of data in the article is enough to justify keeping it.  (Personally I find it extremely strange that the largest volcanic eruption of the last 90 years coincided with a major tropical cyclone...but I suppose in the Philippines it's not so unusual.) Jdorje 07:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Though I won't argue that the quality of the article is quite low...but I believe it should be kept around and eventually improved. Jdorje 07:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I just think that it doesn't deserve its own article. I would be more than happy to include it in the 1991 Pacific typhoon season article, but most is taken straight from the JTWC report on the system. Every single hurricane or typhoon that has some quirk about it doesn't need an article about it. That is why I am doing the seasonal articles with the Notable storms section. Hurricanehink 03:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * The current article is longer than a seasonal summary should be, thus merging it in would lose some writing. That is why I'm against it.  Having extra articles doesn't hurt, if that article actually says something.  Jdorje 20:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm just saying that most could be kept for a seasonal summary section. Considering that most of the information was taken word for word from the JTWC report (bordering on plagerism), some of the techincal stuff can be removed. For example,

 * At 130000Z, the Joint Typhoon Warning Center issued its very first warning on Yunya, with winds of 45 knots. This could easily be reworded to, the depression was upgraded to Tropical Storm Yunya on June 13. Much of the article has redundancies that could be removed for a not only better article but short enough for a seasonal article. I just feel it would be more organized to have it in the seasonal article when it is made (which will be soon). Sometimes extra articles does hurt, when what is written could easily be written elsewhere where more people would see it as a more concise section. Hurricanehink 23:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * If you can merge it in without losing any useful data, I have no objections. At the same time I think the season article would be better if it just had a couple sentences about the storm, with the rest of the data going into the storm article. Jdorje 00:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Normally I would agree to keeping every article and expanding. However, few WPAC articles exist, so only the extremely notable ones deserve an article (Tip comes to mind). Others without significant reason justifying an article might not deserve it (like this one, I don't consider a coincidence a significant reason personally). If it is all right, I will go forth with the merge, but only get rid of the redundancies or otherwise out of date information (mention of TCFA when best track called it a depression). Hurricanehink 04:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It's not just coincidence - the typhoon made the damage from the eruption incredibly worse, because instead of most of it blowing out to sea all the ash was swirled around and covered the island of Luzon. Several US military bases which would not normally have been in danger were evacuated and destroyed...it was "raining ash" for several days...etc. Jdorje 05:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

 * True, but it doesn't go into full detail of the destruction in the article. Every storm doesn't need its own article, and I still don't consider this notable enough for its own article. If you would like to see it, I put what I propose in the seasonal article. Hurricanehink 15:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Let's add that picture to the main article and re-merge it. This storm isn't notable enough to warant its own article but the fact about it's impeccibly terrible timing is quite notable. The picture would add much value to the main article. My compliments to Storm05 for finding and uploading it. It now resides in my personal archive as well. -- §  Hurricane  E  RIC  §Damages archive 02:50, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Maybe I don't get it, but why is that picture so good? Yeah it's a lot better than what's on the season page (which is, of course, nothing). — jdorje (talk) 03:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * That's compared to all the other pics I've found of Yunya, none of which are very good. I didn't really expect to find one that impressive. It gives a close-up view of the storm at peak intensity and the resolution is pretty good for pictures from the early '90's. -- §  Hurricane  E  RIC  §Damages archive 01:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge. This storm isn't notable on its own. --Coredesat 22:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Merged with absolutely no loss of info - says just how much this was copied from JTWC and/or main season article. – Chacor 07:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Todo
more impact, storm path , damage pics and some kind of structure to this article. Storm05 15:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Does the original merge discussion not apply anymore? — jdorje (talk) 18:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Reading through that original merge discussion - I think it is a valid debate which wasn't closed as keep, I'm not sure which way I'd favor. If it is to stay those things need to be done.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Links

 * Pyroclastic Flows of the June 15, 1991, Climactic Eruption of Mount Pinatubo
 * The 1991 Lahars of Southwestern Mount Pinatubo and Evolution of the Lahar-Dammed Mapanuepe Lake
 * Volume Estimation of Tephra-Fall Deposits from the June 15, 1991, Eruption of Mount Pinatubo by Theoretical and Geological Methods
 * Building Damage Caused by the Mount Pinatubo Eruption of June 15, 1991
 * Fire and mud: eruptions and lahars of Mount Pinatubo, Philippines (Book) – 250 to 300 deaths related to Yunya
 * Atmospheric effects of the Mt Pinatubo eruption – At least 300 deaths related to Yunya
 * Monitoring the evolution of the Pasig–Potrero alluvial fan, Pinatubo Volcano, using a decade of remote sensing data – "Perhaps significantly, the proximity of Typhoon Yunya and its associated heavy rainfall at the time of the climactic eruption (Oswalt et al., 1996) established the initial drainage channels that were enlarged and developed by later typhoon-induced surface runoff..."

Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Striking what doesn't appear useful (and yes, I'm using this is a guide even if it's seven years old) as I begin to work on this article. YE Pacific Hurricane 23:36, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Adding more to be struck; given I'm separate article exists, I'm keeping some of this stuff minimal. YE Pacific Hurricane 22:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Are there any impacts in Taiwan? ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:03, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * AFAIK no and given how weak it was then it isn't a surprise. YE Pacific Hurricane 17:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Typhoon Yunya (1991)


text:
Peter Kocan

Peter Raymond Kocan (born Peter Raymond Douglas, 4 May 1947) is an Australian author and poet who attempted to assassinate Australian Opposition Leader Arthur Calwell on 21 June 1966. He fired a shot at point-blank range through a car window, but Calwell escaped with only minor facial injuries from broken glass. Kocan, 19 years old at the time, was sentenced to life imprisonment. He was transferred to the Morisset Mental Hospital and released in 1976.

He began writing in prison and has published several volumes of poetry. After his release from prison he continued to write poetry and novels.

Early life
Kocan was born Peter Raymond Douglas on 4 May 1947 in Newcastle, New South Wales. His father, an engineer, was killed in a car accident three months before his birth. When he was five years old, his mother married Ludowit Kocan and the family moved to Melbourne. The marriage did not last and they moved on to Sydney, but Peter retained his step-father's surname. His mother later stated that his step-father had rejected him and that he had "never known the affection of a father".

Kocan left school at the age of 14, and according to his mother gave up sport and spent most of his time reading. During his teenage years he worked as a labourer and station-hand in the country, before later returning to Sydney. He wrote a letter to the headquarters of the Australian National Socialist Party in which he stated that he "admired Hitler because he had killed himself at the right time". According to Sydney Rowe, a psychiatrist who examined him, Kocan became fixated on death and suicide, and had fantasies about imitating Lee Harvey Oswald. When asked about his motive, Kocan told police "I had to do something to set me aside from all the other nobodies".

Assassination attempt on Calwell
On the evening of 21 June 1966, while campaigning for the 1966 federal election, Arthur Calwell addressed an anti-conscription rally at Mosman Town Hall in Sydney. After Calwell left the meeting, just as his car was about to drive off, Kocan approached the passenger side of the vehicle, aimed a sawn-off rifle at Calwell's head and fired at point-blank range. The closed window deflected the bullet, which lodged harmlessly in Calwell's coat lapel. Calwell sustained only minor facial injuries from broken glass.

Kocan was tried and found guilty of attempted murder. He was sentenced to life imprisonment and was detained first at Long Bay jail in Sydney. In late December 1966, Kocan was transferred to Ward 21 for the Criminally Insane in Morisset Mental Hospital, at Morisset, south of Newcastle. Calwell visited Kocan there, and forgave him for the incident.

Writing career
During his years in prison and hospital, Kocan immersed himself in history, literature and poetry after a chance remark by another inmate led him to discover the writing of Rupert Brooke. Between 1967 and 1969, the poet Michael Dransfield corresponded and exchanged poems with Kocan. These letters, which comprise drafts of poems by Dransfield, quotes of poems by other poets, and recommendations for books Kocan should read, are now held in the collection of the Academy Library of the University of New South Wales.

Kocan began to write poetry in 1967. Two selected works of poetry, Ceremonies for the Lost (1974) and The Other Side of the Fence (1975), were published while he was at Morisset. He was released on licence from Morisset in August 1976, and began to write about his experiences. Two autobiographical novellas, The Treatment (1980) and The Cure (1983), told of his life in the asylum. The Cure won the 1983 NSW Premier's Literary Award for Fiction. His other works include the poetry volumes Freedom to Breathe (1985), Standing with Friends (1992) and Fighting in the Shade (2000), the joint collection Primary Loyalties (1999), and the science-fiction novel Flies of a Summer (1988). The novel Fresh Fields (2004), is a fictionalised account of his youth. His most recent novel, The Fable of All Our Lives (2010), is based on his life after his release from Morisset.

Kocan lived for many years at Tuggerawong on the Central Coast of New South Wales, teaching and writing one act plays, poetry and fiction. He acted in twenty plays, and directed four for the Wyong Drama Group from 1981 to 2002. He gained public recognition for his work, receiving regular support from the Literary Board of the Australia Council, and has won various literary prizes. He graduated from the University of Newcastle in 1998 with a Bachelor of Arts (Honours), and obtained a master's degree. He moved to Brisbane in 2003.

Awards and nominations

 * 1977: Commonwealth Institute of London Prize for The Other Side of the Fence (poetry collection)
 * 1982: Mattara Poetry Prize for From the private poems of Governor Caulfield
 * 1983: New South Wales Premier's Literary Awards, Christina Stead Prize for fiction for The Cure
 * 2005: New South Wales Premier's Literary Awards, shortlisted for Christina Stead Prize for fiction Fresh Fields (semi-autobiographical novel)
 * 2005: Queensland Premier's Literary Awards, shortlisted for Best Fiction Prize for Fresh Fields
 * 2010: Australia Council Writer's Emeritus Award

Collections

 * Ceremonies for the Lost (1974)
 * The Other Side of the Fence (1975)
 * Freedom to Breathe (1985)
 * Standing with Friends (1992)
 * Primary Loyalties (1999)
 * Fighting in the Shade (2000)

Fiction

 * The Treatment (1980)
 * The Cure (1983)
 * Flies of a Summer (1988)
 * Fresh Fields (2004)
 * The Fable of All Our Lives (2010)

One Act Plays

 * The Card Players (1981)
 * Who Do You Think You Are? (1981)
 * The Walking Stick of the Desert (1981)
 * Home Fires Burning (1983)
 * The Plot Sickens (1986)
 * Lady Chatterly's Bunyip (1988)
 * The Mummy's Comb (1993)
 * Sold to the Gypsies (1995)

(all unpublished, dates given are the dates of their first live performance)

title: Peter Kocan