text:
Talk:Keirsey Temperament Sorter

Cleanup
I think the correct name according to Keirsey is "Rational" and not "Rationalist." --Estr4ng3d 03:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I have made alot of changes and I am still in the process of editing this article. There is a lot of information about temperaments that this site hasn't addressed and probably should address. The one site I found to be incredibly useful in writing was 4temperaments.com. I have been doing my best to present the information I have found in a new form but I am still worried about copyright issues. I felt it was best to present what I have done so far and seek advice on here. Eincrat 04:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The expanding of information about the four temperaments on the Keirsey Temperament Sorter wikipedia page should be based on Keirsey's writings since the page is about the Keirsey Temperament Sorter, not from secondary sources (or based on Linda Beren's views) like 4temperaments.com.

Point taken. I will remove that information.

To do list - I am thinking about making individual pages for temparament and role variants. I am also thinking about trying to make the following diagram - Extraterrestials and Earthlings  at the top, the temperaments that correspond to those groupings below them, the eight 'intellegence types' grouped below the temperaments, and the role variants grouped below the intellegence types. In this diagram, at least the temperaments and the role variants will have links to the aforementioned individual pages. I am not familiar enough with Wikipedia to make this diagram pretty, but I think I can do a 'rough' diagram fairly effectively. Let me know what you think about the idea. Eincrat 20:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Extraterrestials? Earthlings? IMHO this should not be in the diagram. This might cause unwanted discussions and at least I am confused about it. So, if this is not really crucial important do it without this part. JKW 22:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. I can do the same thing another way. Eincrat 23:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The thing about Martians and Earthlings - is this from "Please Understand Me"? It's not in "Please Understand Me II." I think it's outdated and should be removed. ThreeOfCups (talk) 03:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since no one expressed a desire to keep these terms, I deleted them. ThreeOfCups (talk) 19:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Extra-Terrestials!? John Mark Wagnon (talk) 12:39, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

The 16 Role Variants
Why is there so many edits to this section that don't go anywhere? Skinnyweed 19:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I added articles for the missing role variants. They're sparse, but they're there. ThreeOfCups (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The Eight Roles
The links for the eight roles (Mentor, Advocate, etc.) don't go anywhere. Should articles be created for these? Or is that overkill? They could be developed under the role variants (Mentor under Counselor and Teacher, for example). For now, I think I'll redirect the roles to the temperaments. ThreeOfCups (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed the links for these. I don't think articles are needed - the roles can be explained under the temperaments, and there are plenty of links in this article to the temperatment articles. ThreeOfCups (talk) 23:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Validity
What is the validity of this questionnaire?

Psychometric validity for a questionnaire does not make a whole lot of sense. Those who maintain or assert the validity of other similar instruments are either disingenuous or naive.

Am I reading the previous correctly as saying that psychometric validity doesn't make sense or that comparing the validity of this instrument to other instruments is invalid? But I do think there needs to be some effort at validation even it it contains flaws. Some may be skeptical of assertions that validity issues can not be examined.

Correction on the elements
If I remember correctly, Keirsey aligned the four "western" elements with the following qualities: blood/air, black bile/earth, yellow bile/fire, phlegm/water, and so on down the columns, to each of the other references. Now, I realize that Keirsey is professional psychologist, and he must have done at least a fair research to come up with such a timeline (and then publish them in a book under his name), but if he had done any research on the traditional western elements he would have realized how horribly misarranged they were in the catagories where he placed them. In my own experience, I have taken a mundane look at the 12 (or 14) psychological archetypes in astrology throughout its recorded history, each of which (excluding the two "late-comers": Ophiuchus and Cetus) have corresponded to one of four elements. Now some science-minded individuals reading this may want to dismiss the historical relevance of these archetypal groupings simply because of their nebulous association with the 'arcane', but facts are facts and history is history. Whether there is anything to the archetypes, or whether they are another shot in the dark at pigeon-holing the human soul with hocus-pocus, the fact remains that their traditional connotations were misrepresented in Keirsey's book. That is why they have been corrected on the page. If anyone editing this page finds fault with that argument, feel free to respond on this board.

Nobody seems to have mentioned this...but, for example, shouldn't 'black bile'be above the 'melanchonic'temperament? Four Temperaments says 'Melancholic is the personality of an individual characterized by black bile'. Just my two cents. David88 16:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is considering the UPDATED elements!!! - Consider this too: recent research into the accuracy of the four elements has revealed that the classic "Passive Sanguine" and the "'Fearful' Phlegmatic" hid an extra element, the truly relationship orientated element.

The contradiction was: phlegmatics by nature is NOT prone to the fears it apparently hid... which would only occur IF the phlegmatic was suffering from co-dependency. Believe or not, the research clearly points out the possibility of a fifth element, the REAL water element (leaving in total, 13 elements, and a whole new way to measure temperament elements). WHERE DOES THIS FIT ALREADY!!?

I get the feeling this new research is just being ignored for one reason or another, and it's certainly not a new discovery, these guys just didn't IGNORE the "Passive Sanguine" and the "'Fearful' Phlegmatic". The problem is, where does the relationship orientated Supine FIT?

QUOTE "The Phlegmatic person is by definition, ambiverted, being capable of interaction with people, but overall, can "take them or leave them". This left a range of people with a high "wanted" score in the areas of control, inclusion and affection, (like a Sanguine) but a low "expressed" score (like a Melancholy); the true "relationship-oriented introverts". Other researchers had been suspecting that there might be a fifth temperament, but most simply regarded it as a "passive sanguine.""UNQUOTE >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_temperaments

can SOMEbody give this modern research a chance?? PARTICULARLY note the temperamanent blends about two thirds the way down the page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.6.196 (talk) 05:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

 * This article is on the Keirsey Temperament Sorter. The information above does not apply to the KTS, which takes a historical approach to the elements. Keirsey's point is that the concept of temperament is not new, and he's simply supplied a fresh, more empirical perspective. To my knowledge, the Keirsey folks aren't involved in the above-described research, and therefore it has no place in this article. I added links to some of the other temperament articles, including the Five Temperaments article, which addresses this theory. ThreeOfCups (talk) 15:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Rational/Idealist correlation to Phlagmatic & Choleric reversed?
I see in the lists both here and in the Four Humours article, the Idealist is placed in the column corresponding it to Choleric, and the Rational is in the Phlegmatic. But when you look at the descriptions of the temperaments, and even the sub-types, clearly the Rational is more Choeric, while the Idealist would be more comatible with Phlegmatic. For one thing, the Rational is a Thinking type (Which Keirsey also calls "Tough-minded), while the Idealist is a Feeling type (which he also calls "Friendly"). From http://www.advisorteam.org's own descriptions:
 * Rationals have an insatiable hunger to accomplish their goals and will work tirelessly on any project they have set their mind to. They are rigorously logical and fiercely independent in their thinking--are indeed skeptical of all ideas, even their own--and they believe they can overcome any obstacle with their will power. Often they are seen as cold and distant, but this is really the absorbed concentration they give to whatever problem they're working on.

This is clearly Choleric

 * Idealists are sure that friendly cooperation is the best way for people to achieve their goals. Conflict and confrontation upset them because they seem to put up angry barriers between people. Idealists dream of creating harmonious, even caring personal relations, and they have a unique talent for helping people get along with each other and work together for the good of all. Such interpersonal harmony might be a romantic ideal, but then Idealists are incurable romantics who prefer to focus on what might be, rather than what is.

This is clearly not Choleric!

So I wanted to change this, but I did see the same correlation elsewhere, so I felt it should be discussed.Eric B 18:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, the first one, Rationals, is Melancholic, not Choleric. Cholerics are the guardian type.  The second one, Idealist, sounds Phlegmatic to me. --75.191.135.245 (talk) 09:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

 * If I remember right, NT is Melancholic, the rational type. SP is Sanguine.  SJ is Choleric.  NF is Phlegmatic.  I see the types mixed up in at least 2 articles.  I memorized these years ago, and I think I have them right. --75.191.135.245 (talk) 09:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

 * According to Please Understand Me II,
 * Artisan (SP) is Sanguine
 * Guardian (SJ) is Melancholic
 * Idealist (NF) is Choleric
 * Rational (NT) is Phlegmatic
 * ThreeOfCups (talk) 18:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

 * The irony of the Idealist temperament is that the best way to draw them into conflict is to act without regard for their desire for harmony. They may regard a small inconsiderate act to be a violent breach of their ethics, and the two types with Extraverted Feeling (ENFJ and INFJ) may respond with righteous outrage. This is less likely of the two types with Introverted Feeling (ENFP and INFP), who will be equally distressed but will internalize the feeling, using their iNtuition to categorize the experience into their ever-evolving code of moral conduct. The key word in the advisorteam.org description of the Idealist is upset; Idealist are upset quite easily, because in their estimation, every human act has ethical overtones. ThreeOfCups (talk) 02:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Paul D. Tieger and Barbara Barron-Tieger explain it this way in The Art of SpeedReading People: "Perhaps surprisingly, while Feelers will go to great lengths to avoid conflict, they may become hostile or even aggressive if their values are violated. ... Feelers may be unable or unwilling to just let it go. Instead, they can become angry and punishing. Such volatility is seldom seen in Thinkers, who are less inclined to take things personally, and therefore are less likely to become offended." And while Sensing Feelers may see the offending action as constrained by the specific circumstances (he treated me insensitively), Idealists are more likely to view the action in a global context (she treats people insensitively). ThreeOfCups (talk) 16:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Keirsey Temperament Userboxes
This article has things I haven't seen in Keirsey's writing. It really needs a major rewrite. Also, all the temperaments need articles. The Artisan one is pretty poor, and the rest don't even exist. When I have some time, I'll give it a try. In the mean time, I created userboxes for the four temperaments: If you want to show one on your user page, just copy the code starting and ending with the double curly brackets. Nathanm mn 15:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

systems field theory model
"Myers' descriptions use a linear four-factor model; Keirsey's descriptions use a systems field theory model." What does this mean? This article is the only Wikipedia hit for "systems field theory", and what Google comes up with looks like physics to me. --128.208.46.125 (talk) 18:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

 * That's an excellent question. The term seems to have originated with Dr. Keirsey himself. Here's what Keirsey.com says:

 * "There are some major practical differences and a large theoretical difference between the two bodies of work. The first essential difference is that Keirsey describes observed long term behaviorial patterns, Myers often describes what people have in mind. The second essential difference is Myers used a linear four factor model to characterize 'invariant' patterns of behavior of the individual throughout their lifetime, whereas Keirsey uses a systems field theory model to characterize these patterns…The bottom line of the difference between the theories comes in describing the 'aspects' of personality. Keirsey has done an in-depth, systematic analysis and synthesis of aspects of personality for temperament: that included the temperament's unique interests, orientation, values, self-image, and social roles. Whereas, Myers' brilliant simplifications of Jung's work facilitates the talking about four scales."

 * From that, I'm not sure I can deduce what Keirsey means by "systems field theory model," but I'll see if I can rewrite this so it makes sense to ordinary mortals like us. ThreeOfCups (talk) 22:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Need separate tables for the Keirsey and Four Humours articles?
A lot of the information in the temperament table doesn't apply to the this article. I'm thinking of copying the table code into the article and simplifying the table overall. Does anyone object? Or would it be better to create a new template? ThreeOfCups (talk) 02:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's what I have in mind:

ThreeOfCups (talk) 23:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

 * a) I like the simpler table, aesthetically, but
 * b) the chart was identical to one on Four Temperaments - I've removed it from this page and referenced the history section there.
 * c) I like that you removed the irrelevant wiki links to topics like "Theory" for "Theoretic" -> not the same thing. Why don't you make the same changes to the template page?
 * d) Is the chart (or your chart above) built upon original research (WP:NOR)? That is to ask, did wikipedian's make the intellectual comparisons between the theories over time as judge if Kiersey was inspired by that particular theory, or does the comparison come fom the referenced sources? If it comes from references, I'd suggest it would be in line with wikipedia to maintain the same comparisons, and only the comparisons, that were made in the sources, with reasonable copyediting for visual appeal. That means don't add or drop information, but simplification is ok. If it's a comparison made by wikipedians, I suggest we would do better to come to a single consensus rather than create multiple separate versions of history.
 * e) ultimately, it doesn't seem like a template is what is needed here. The Four Temperaments page wants a table about how the four temperaments is a recurring theme throughout a long history, the Keirsey Temperament Sorter page wants a table about what specifically Kiersley was inspired by. I'd be in favour of dropping the template, and using a table on the Kiersey page that is relevant to Kiersey's work. I'm not an expert at all in this area, so I'd leave it to the community to decide if your table above is supported by the references.

-- JetheroTalk 15:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I added the table, based on the information in Please Understand Me II by Keirsey and People Patterns by his colleague Stephen Montgomery. This isn't OR - Keirsey himself made these comparisons. ThreeOfCups (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Merger
A very similar table exists in Table of similar systems of comparison of temperaments

Unless I hear comment to the contrary, I would propose (a) merging this table's information into that external page and (b) changing reference on this page to that external page.

If people feel there's value retaining the subset of the information as a table on this page, however, I'm happy to do (a) but not (b).

Thoughts? Somersetlevels (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

 * This suggestion has already been tried, and it didn't work out. The table in this article is specific to the Keirsey Temperament Sorter. The other table isn't similar enough to accurately capture Keirsey's theory. ThreeOfCups (talk) 00:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Cooperation versus Pragmatism
I'm not sure if I'm cooperative or pragmatic. What can help me? Twipley (talk) 21:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Do you know your type (role variant)? Rationals and Artisans are pragmatic; Idealists and Guardians are cooperative. If you want to discuss this further, you can post a message on my talk page. ThreeOfCups (talk) 05:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Four interaction roles
I couldn't find any reference to these interaction roles in Please Understand Me II, so I'm removing that as a reference. Perhaps it's in the orginal Please Understand Me. Page references would be helpful for verifiability. ThreeOfCups (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

quote from Carl Jung about abstract / concrete
I would like to see a citation for the sentences in the "2 Understanding the sorter descriptions" section:
 * "Carl Jung used the word sensing when describing concrete people... Carl Jung used the word intuition when describing abstract people."

In his book Psychological Types, Jung differentiates between "concrete sensation" and "abstract sensation". Abstract sensation is attention to one specific aspect of sensory perceptions. When describing a flower Jung says "abstract sensation immediately picks out the most salient sensuous attribute of the flower, its brilliant redness, for instance, and makes this the sole or at least the principal content of consciousness, entirely detached from all other admixtures" (Psychological Types, paragraph 794).

So I doubt Jung used the word 'sensing' just for "concrete people" as is being claimed here!

tom (talk) 08:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

 * I changed "sensing" to "sensation," since that's what my translation of Psychological Types uses. Sensation refers to sensory perception, while intuition refers to unconscious perception. ThreeOfCups (talk) 05:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Don't you mean subconscious perception?Edifyingdiscourse (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

article needs a criticism section
See Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, it looks like a better, well-developed article. In my cursory research, I've come to the assumption that Keirsey effectively replaces Myers-Briggs. But in the MBTI article, there is a good description of how the National Academy of Sciences reviewed the MBTI test. I'd like to know what they thought of Keirsey's test. Xaxafrad (talk) 03:16, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Four Totem Spirits in Incorrect Spots According to Elements?
Currently, the totem spirits correlate to the other temperaments like so:

 * Sanguine Salamanders
 * Melancholic Gnomes
 * Choleric Nymphs
 * Phlegmatic Sylphs

But the Gnomes seem to be the only ones in the right place when the elements the temperaments and spirits represent are taken into account:

 * Air is Sanguine, but Salamanders are fire elementals
 * Fire is Choleric, but Nymphs are water elementals
 * Water is Phlegmatic, but Sylphs are air elementals

Is this just a weird inconsistency due to the multitude of people's ideas this chart puts together, or should Sylphs be Sanguine, Salamanders by Choleric, and Nymphs be Phlegmatic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.119.62 (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Kant's and Eysenck's temperaments also seem misaligned. They're identical to the classical four humors but are not in the same order.--2.204.226.11 (talk) 00:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Strengths-Quest? True Colors? iPersonic? (etc....)
hmmm - according to the NACTA Journal there's also the "Strengths-Quest," "True Colors," and "iPersonic." (i'll attempt to find links to their webpages.. brb! )--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:11, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Strengths-Quest (Clifton (licensed by Gallup)) LINK to full list on pg 81 - a list
 * 2) WP's True Colors (personality) - a chart?
 * 3) iPersonic LINK --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:30, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) ID16, by Jarislaw--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Big Five personality traits (also see Big Five personality traits about additional traits e/g "religiosity? manipulativeness/machiavellianism? honesty? sexiness/seductiveness? thriftiness? conservativeness? masculinity/femininity? snobbishness/egotism? sense of humour? risk-taking/thrill-seeking? etc--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 00:37, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) HEXACO model of personality structure (Big Five plus honesty/humility; see Google books LINK
 * 7) (Geert Hofstede's cultural factors: Individualism, Power Distance, Masculinity, and Uncertainty Avoidance)
 * 8) Perseus system ("[...E]mphasises the Judging-Perceiving scale and virtually ignores the Introversion-Extroversion scale [and was...] developed by the work of Frances Wickes and from literature and parables...." - LINK

 * See here: Talk:Two-factor_models_of_personality--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:54, 25 October 2016 (UTC)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

"Mastermind (role variant" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mastermind_(role_variant&redirect=no Mastermind (role variant] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 04:17, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Keirsey Temperament Sorter


text:
Talk:Purdah

explanation
This article is in need of more explanation from someone more knowledgable about Purdah. When is it permissible to not be covered? I understand that different islamic societies have different opinions about this, but I am interested in the exceptions to this rule as being illustritive of the deeper meanings involved:

 * 1) If her house is on fire, can a woman run out of it without the correct apparel?  Can she exit naked without punishment?  Would someone give her clothing quickly?
 * 2) Are Islamic prostitutes commonly clothed in burqas or hot pants or both?  Do they have brothels, queens (house mothers), or pimps?  What is the prostitution industry like in islamic countries?  Yes, prostitution is everywhere, so the 'it doesn't happen here' answer is probably not helpful.  I'm mostly interested in (for this article) the intersection of purdah and prostitution.
 * 3) Which countries currently have the most restrictive purdah traditions?  The least?
 * 4) Do wealthy women have the same purdah obligations socially and legally as poor people?  Ideally?  In real life?
 * 5) How, and in what scripture, is purdah mentioned, either in Jewish, Christian, or Islamic traditions?  What are the origins? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.173.27.145 (talk • contribs).  at 03:16, 11 October 2005.

this page is in great need of care, it has been vandalized! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.241.248.84 (talk • contribs). at 22:46, 24 October 2005.

Other meanings - UK (esp. financial/political?)
Article mentions two specific usages relating to elections and budgets. The Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee also use the term to relate to a period of time before and after each Interest rate decision in which commitee members avoid giving speeches and speaking to the news media or other interests, on or off the record, about monetary and fiscal policy and the conjuncture, or anything else which could be considered relevant to their interest rate decisions or the forecast..

Perhaps this (and the other mentioned related usages in English) could be put in another disambiguated article? Are there other equivalent usages outside the UK? --62.173.111.114 14:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

 * At the very least this needs a disambiguation page; Purdah is also used by UK civil servants to refer to the period between the dissolution of parliament and the general election; i.e. when MPs cease to exist.157.203.42.175 (talk) 11:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Purdah and Hijab
There is no reason to merge Purdah with Hijab. The words have different meanings and histories as the article The Hijab and I by C.M. Naim, Emeritus Professor of Urdu and South Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago, makes clear. Here is an extended quote from the article: The word ‘Hijab’ is relatively new for me. It was not a part of my vocabulary as I was growing up. I learned it much later, when I began to read literary and religious Urdu texts. That is how I also learned other such culturally potent words as Ishq (Passion) and Siyasat (Politics), and Tasavvuf (Mysticism). The relevant word that I learned growing up was purdah. And I learned the word and its many meanings in the observed practice of the various female members of my middle-class family in Bara Banki, a small town in north India.

For Ammi, my grandmother, purdah meant almost never venturing out of the house. On the rare occasions when she did, it was always an elaborate ritual. Visiting a family in the neighbourhood -- only on the occasion of some tragedy, as I remember -- she used a doli. The little stool slung from a pole that two men carried would be brought to our back door -- the door to the zanana or the ladies’ section -- and the two carriers would step away behind the curtain wall. Ammi would wrap herself in a white sheet and squat on the flat stool, and a heavy custom-made cover would be thrown over her and the doli. The two bearers would then come back and carry the doli away on their shoulders.

When Ammi traveled in my father’s car, she covered herself the same way, while the back seat of the car where she sat was made completely invisible by pieces of cloth hung across the windows. Years earlier, she had traveled all the way to Mecca with her daughter and son-in-law to perform the Hajj. I don’t know how she covered herself during the journey itself, but in the holy city she must have done what all Muslim women are required to do: perform the many rituals together with men while keeping their hair and bodies covered but faces fully exposed. She acted in Mecca the way it was required of her by Islam, her religion, while in Bara Banki she did what was demanded by her culture -- the culture of the sharif or genteel people of Avadh.

Apa, my mother belonged, to the next generation. She used a burqa. Hers was a two piece ‘modern’ outfit, as opposed to the one-piece -- derisively called ‘the shuttlecock’ by my sisters -- that was preferred by the older or more conservatively spirited in the family. I also remember that the older generation’s burqas were usually white, while the new burqas were always black.

Apa’s burqa’ consisted of a skirt and a separate top throw -- one that covered her from the head to the thighs. The two pieces allowed for easier movement of both arms and legs. The top had a separate veil hanging over the face, which Apa could throw back in the company of women, e.g. while traveling in the ladies compartment on a train, or hold partly aside to look at things more closely when she went shopping. Apa wore a burqa all her life, except of course when she went to Mecca for Hajj. There she wore the same sheets of ihram that Ammi had to were earlier. Like all women pilgrims then and now, she too exposed her face to everyone’s sight but not her hair.

My older sisters went to a school in Lucknow where they boarded. They wore a burqa of my mother’s style while in Bara Banki. They probably wore the same in Lucknow too, on their outings with other students, no doubt always under the supervision of a lady teacher or two. My eldest sister gave up the burqa after she got married, though she always put it on when she came to Bara Banki during our father’s life. She acted as the wife of a certain individual when she was away from Bara Banki, but behaved as befitted the daughter of a particular family when she returned home.

In our extended family, however, there were several cousins of my mother who never wore a burqa, and two had worn western clothes when they were at a convent school.There were also a few families in Bara Banki even then in which the younger women never wore burqas and only half-wrapped themselves in a sheet when they walked to some place in the neighborhood; they otherwise dressed and behaved just like my sisters.

I should not neglect to mention that in those days -- I’m talking about the Forties -- it was considered improper even for Hindu ladies of certain classes to be seen in public with their hair and faces uncovered, particularly the married women. They never wore a burqa -- that was for Muslims alone. Instead, they used a shawl, a plain white sheet, or the pallo of their saris to cover what was not for strangers to see. They too lived in houses that had separate women’s quarters. Their daughters traveled to school daily in a covered wagon that was pushed by two men, just like their Muslim counterparts. (The school was exclusively for girls and had a very high wall surrounding it.)

Another noticeable difference between Hindu and Muslim ladies of the same middle class was that the former did not hesitate to use a tonga. They sat on the back bench of the horse-drawn vehicle where their sari-wrapped lower bodies were visible to all. Muslim ladies, on the other hand, preferred the other horse-drawn vehicle, ekka -- where they could huddle on its high seat wrapped in their burqas or even have the whole seat enclosed with a sheet. My sisters, I well remember, hated to travel in an ekka, and did so only under duress in Bara Banki; in Lucknow, they too used a tonga.

Needless to say, the women who ‘served’ in our homes in some capacity -- as live-in servants or traditional retainers -- and the women of the poorer classes all over the city went about their hard tasks without any kind of purdah. On the way to my school I’d walk through a small cluster of homes where some Muslim weavers lived.

Their women went about their daily chores in ordinary clothes, even when working under the trees by the roadside. Their men were believed by most to be more devoutly Muslim than many -- the British had called them ‘the bigoted julahas’ -- but for untold generations the same devout men had enforced no purdah restrictions on their women.

They could not afford to in the face of the reality of their lives. Only the young married women in their households kept their faces lowered and partially covered with the hem of their dupattas exactly as did their sari-clad Hindu counterparts in that neighbourhood.

In other words, when and where I was growing up the word ‘purdah’ had many different meanings. It described a range of habits, and not just a piece of cloth. The defining emphasis always was on a modesty of behaviour which included a showing of respect for our ‘elders’. Purdah in Bara Banki was not defined by some religious code, it existed as dictated by local practices and sensibilities. And it always seemed open to change. Fowler&fowler «Talk»  14:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean: "Hijab is an Islamic tradition that is based on physical and psychological morality"? It should be deleted or cleared up by someone who is not so obviously biased.

I agree with the above statement. Are you trying to say that the practice of purdah is not based on physical and psychological morality, because I think the practice of purdah is also based on those same things. If it isn't based on those things, then what is it based on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nazia2004 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, with the above quotation, I think the latter half of the quotation is important to include in the actual article because when I just read the article I did not see the point "the word ‘purdah’ had many different meanings" being proved. Nazia2004 (talk) 12:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no difference between 'Purdah' & 'Hijab'
Purdah is in Ordou while Hijab is in Arabic, both words mean 'barrier' to a non-Mahram onlooker - a screen whether by a covering or a screen or a wall. Also the source is not customary but Islamic revelation to be precise it did not exist before the revelation of Ayat 59 in Suraat Ahzaab [Q;33:59]at return from Battle of Khaybar in 6H 628CE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.181.167.165 (talk) 16:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Moved scripts to top
I have moved the Hindi script from the Other meanings section to the introduction of the article for two reasons: [a] Purdah is practiced in India (see references kindly provided by Fowler&fowler) [b] Purdah is the standard Hindi word for curtain. In addition, I have made the Perso-Arabic script more readable. Thanks, AnupamTalk 06:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Improper Phrase
I'm a bit concerned by the phrase "A woman's withdrawal into purdah restricts her personal, social and economic activities outside her home." I think it's a generalisation - is the author able to quote published papers that indicate the sentence is fact? Crewekitty 15:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I too feel it is a generalized statement, That phrase doesnt even has a reference. Proper meaning should be found and written. HotWick (talk) 11:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Why no explication of the rationale behind Purdah?
I am not a Muslim but it was once explained to me by a Muslim that the rational was that, such is human nature that if the female form is exposed it will present a sexual stimulation or temptation to men, and this sexual dynamic wil impact negatively upon inter-sexual relationships and society in general. There are radical feminists in the West that say not so disimilar things, suggesting that men treat women as sexual objects. These same radical feminists however (I presume) believe that it is possible to overcome such effects by education. Islamic thinking suggests that hardware, in the form of clothing, is needed. At the same time again, Christians tend to believe, and Western societies tend to have laws against, complete nudity for the same sorts of reasons that Musilims recommend Purdah. Who is right? Where does one draw the line? --Timtak (talk) 10:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This article does not present the case for Islam. There are uneducated anglophones on the Internet presenting Purdha simply as "ignorant" repression, without understanding the case for Purdah. If they only read this article then they would be none the wiser. --Timtak (talk) 10:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe Purdah is seen as an extreme form of modesty. although some people often say that it is used to oppress women, and although it may do that, is that the reason given by the practitioners? Also, since this is often a Muslim tradition is there support in the Koran for it? It is not wikipedia's job to decide where to draw the line, but rather record where people draw it. Rds865 (talk) 04:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Islamic Prostitute
This is in regards to a question at the head of this discussion page: "Are Islamic prostitutes commonly clothed in burqas or hot pants or both? Do they have brothels, queens (house mothers), or pimps? What is the prostitution industry like in islamic countries? Yes, prostitution is everywhere, so the 'it doesn't happen here' answer is probably not helpful. I'm mostly interested in (for this article) the intersection of purdah and prostitution."

Use of the term "Islamic prostitute" doesn't make sense. It's an oxymoron at best. Islam specifically prohibits prostitution. It is considered a major sin. That isn't to say that prostitution doesn't exist in Muslim countries, but the prostitutes themselves can't be considered Muslim.

Also, with the comment "burqas or hot pants or both", I detect a tinge of sarcasm. Enaam (talk) 14:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Photograph by Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky available from LOC
An early 20th century photograph by Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky, of a Sart woman in purdah in Samarkand, Uzbekistan is available online from the Library of Congress. The photograph:

 * http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/prk2000001462/

is part of a series of photographs that are in the public domain:
 * commons:Template:PD-RusEmpire

Such photographs are already part of Wikipedia here:
 * Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky

and are in Commons, within the following category:

 * commons:Category:Sergey_Prokudin-Gorsky

72.244.203.208 (talk) 03:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Revising the Purdah Article
I would like to revise this page on purdah. Currently, the page desperately needs improvement: the article is flagged for needing “additional citations for verification”. It is very short, lacking in in detail, credible sources, and citations. Right now the definition of purdah relies on an Eurocentric Greco-Roman historian’s description. The tone of the article lacks credibility. Its assertions are overly simplistic and makes claims with bare-boned citation. The article does not address the historical, religious, or cultural origins, or the influence of class, nationality, economic shifts, Islamization of the state, or women’s personal choices-- all sub-topics I plan to add to the article. Currently the article is poorly organized. In addition, the article uses a biased, Western-centric point of view. In all, this page is currently biased, unsystematic, unorganized, and lacks in research.

Purdah is a very important topic that warrants a well-written article. The purdah has wide-ranging ramifications for millions of women around the world. Purdah takes forms in women’s dress, behavior and institutional rights in terms of access to resources and mobility. Given the multitude of perspectives (sociological, human rights, economic, political, historical, religious, gender rights, etc) a neutral and comprehensive exploration of this topic is very much needed to present an unbiased picture for this tradition. I hope to improve upon it by increasing the thoroughness in research, comprehensiveness in content and analysis, clear organization, neutral tone of voice, number of citations from credible sources (academic articles from journals on Asian history, women's studies, sociology, anthropology, etc), inclusion of appropriate pictures, and the degree to which it is imbedded within the Wikipedia universe by linking to other relevant pages.

I'd love to hear any suggestions and comments you might have!

Jennyxwen (talk) 20:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

 * Hey Jenny, I am excited that you are working on this page, I think there are a lot of misunderstanding and contention around this issue. I signed up to be a reviewer for this article so let me know if you have any specific things in need of review. What I would love to see more of is the sub-section titled Purdah as empowerment. While a lot of people, specifically Muslim women themselves, feel that purdah is oppressive and seek to challenge it, there are also a substantial amount of Muslim women who write on this issue and defended their rationale for the restrictions that they willingly follow. I took a course with Dr. David Cook from the religious studies department, he knows a lot about these issues and he can refer you to articles/authors on this issue as well, so I recommend sending an email his way to see if he might be any help. Good luck and I look forward to reviewing your article!

Kayceeho (talk) 20:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review Feedback
Here are some specific comments:

Purdah is primarily practiced in majority-Muslim countries and Hindu communities in South Asia ( India, Pakistan, Bangladesh ). [3] It varies broadly according to religions, region, nationality, cultures, and socioeconomic classes. [4] . [5] <-- there's that extra period. I fixed this one for you, except that it seems that throughout the entire article there's a space between the last word of the sentence and the period, and then there's another space after the period, before the citation begins. I believe that the citation should be immediately right after the period?

The location of the section titled Conduct and seclusion seems random, it seems to belong to rationale or the overview or wherever else the purposes of purdah are explained.

For all section/sub-section titles, unless it is a proper noun, all words besides the first word should not be capitalized.

Is 'governmental policies on purdah' not part of 'influences on purdah'? I feel that maybe it should be a sub-section of influences on purdah, unless there's a difference between those two so you might want to rename influences on purdah to something else?

"For Muslim South Asian diaspora living in secular non-Muslim communities" what do you mean for Muslim South Asian diaspora? As in Muslim South Asian emigrants, or maybe 'for people of the Muslim South Asian diaspora'?

Here is my general feedback:

Consider adding more internal links, terms like South Asia and Middle East all have wikipedia links, and although not always necessary since not all terms need extensive definition, I personally like it when I can click around links because sometimes I am unsure what ubiquitous terms like the 'Middle East' exactly means. The organization of the article flows logically. For images, you can add a chart/different pictures of the different veilings, BBC has great explanations and pictures of four of the general categories here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

I think I read somewhere about certain low socioeconomic women whose families want her to keep purdah but she clearly needs to get formal employment outside the home to make a living, I think that adds on to how some other low socioeconomic women have the freedom to disregard purdah in pursuit of employment and mobility. I would love to read more on how purdah affects women's psychological and physical health, if you do have more information. Also the government policies on purdah and subsequent controversies are pretty notable in my opinion, and it would be great to see more coverage on those issues. I would also like to see more discussed on purdah as it relates to non-Muslim societies. I believe there are non-Muslim Indians, for example, who practice purdah? And according to the map, it seems that the hijab is quite common in many African countries. It would be interesting to find out more about purdah contextualized in that region of the world, although the use of hijab does not automatically necessitate purdah.

Kayceeho (talk) 04:40, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Response to Peer Review Feedback
Thank you for your thoughtful feedback! Based on your comments, here is my to-do list in editing:

 * Expand: purdah as empowerment (Email David Cook for authors/articles)
 * Expand: purdah’s effects on women’s physical and psychological health
 * Grammar/Convention: Edit spaces in between sentences and citations
 * Grammar/Convention: Get rid of capitalization of subsections
 * Organization: As you suggested I will move Government Policies on Purdah under “Influences on purdah”. That does make more sense
 * Clarification: Muslim South Asian Diaspora
 * Other: Add more external links within the article

Here are some clarifications and explanations regarding points you made:

 * Organization: the reason I wanted to include “conduct and seclusion” as its own section right after “Dress” was because I wanted to emphasize the diversity of the issue but also how they are multiple, equally important facets of the same term and concept
 * Expand: Controversies on gov’t policies on purdah. The reason I didn’t go into it more was because in the countries that had laws, policies, and controversies, they were largely not in South Asia, and therefore called “hijab”. These controversies are well-covered in the Hijab article and “Hijab by Country” article I linked in the “see-also”
 * Expand: I do discuss non-Muslim communities use of purdah under “Adoption and Spreading” and also how the practices differ by religion in “Conduct and Seclusion”
 * Expand: Hijab is common in African countries, but existing articles such as “Hijab by country” does an excellent job of explaining, which I link to. Another reason is because “purdah” is primarily used to describe the practice in South Asia.
 * Other: I only used images in the Wikipedia commons for copyright reasons. But thanks for the link to the images!

Jennyxwen (talk) 04:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Feedback
First of all, sorry this feedback is late! Overall, great job expanding this article. From reading previous comments on this talk page I gather that it has been greatly improved. I think as long as it's made clear that Purdah is used specifically when referring to the institution in Southeast Asia, it should be fine that the institution is covered in the Hijab by country article for all countries outside Southeast Asia. You did a great job maintaining neutrality throughout your contribution. I would, however add to your list of "expansions" the four subsections under "Rationale". The descriptions are quite vage and only one or two sentences long. If you were to expand them it might provide readers with a more comprehensive perspective when looking at later sections such as policies and influences on Purdah and rationale for Purdah. I'd also recommend perhaps further expanding on the Islamization subsection. You do point out that it does have pre-Islamic roots, obviously Islamization has had significant effects on practice and institutions that influence that practice. Maybe talk a bit more about specifically religious influences here, as well as current states of the institution around Southeast Asia today in the context of religious practices. Overall though, a really interesting read and a well-written article! Reillysolis (talk) 04:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

"observed by women"
Saying that purdah is "observed by women" makes it sound like something totally voluntary and optional that women choose on their own, rather than something that is imposed on them by their culture and enforced by law. 96.231.8.232 (talk) 14:16, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Good point. I've reworded it.  We don't know that it is entirely involuntary either.   Fowler&fowler  «Talk»  14:50, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

a referece can be added from natyashastra
an indian textbook on drama, natyashastra shows evidences of gender segregation, females and males were admitted through separate entrances in an indian theatre The Making of Theatre History, Paul Kuritz. 196.246.231.172 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Purdah is not a Hindu tradition
Purdah was imposed on Hindus by the Mughals. It does not have a pre-Islamic history in India. (JayPlaysStuff | talk to me | What I've been up to) 17:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

 * As one proof of this - some orthodox rural women in Tamil Nadu still go topless. I have seen them in the market lanes and also working topless in road construction. Topless female figures are ubiquitous in South Indian temples. A Hindu wrote the Kama sutra, and sexual poses are found on outer temple wall in Khajuraho. Clearly Hindus did not have any hang-ups about the human body, and some still do not. Purdah as an institution clearly came from outside. Sooku (talk) 04:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia Ambassador Program course assignment
This article is the subject of an educational assignment at Rice University supported by the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2013 Q1 term. Further details are available on the course page.

The above message was substituted from by PrimeBOT (talk) on 15:56, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Purdah


text:
Talk:Plenipotentiary

WHY?
WHY?

 * Be more specific. Nagelfar 14:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

"Miscellaneous" sourcing and POV
The information about plenipotentiary powers in an intra-national context is interesting, but it's embedded in some fairly inflammatory language ("surrender"), vague statements of opinion ("liberal elites") and side remarks ("regarded by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan as being a terrorist organisation") which, as currently phrased, don't look relevant. (It might be relevant to the purposes of this article/section to note that the Conservative Party considered the ANC a terrorist organization, but it's not obvious what Thatcher and Reagan have to do with SA internal politics or the necessity for de Klerk to demand plenipotentiary powers.)

Plus, none of it's sourced.

Can someone who knows more about this history than I do make some improvements?

Chronodm (talk) 15:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

 * This matter has been tagged since May 2010, but may have been satisfactorily addressed by interval modifications. Unless there are objections, I will remove the tag in 10 days.FeatherPluma (talk) 20:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Looks like it's been cleaned up -- I removed the NPOV tag myself. Thanks for drawing my attention to it. Chronodm (talk) 21:05, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Paragraph - For the Nazi Reich

 * The term "Nazi Reich" sounds like a trivial expression from a cheap comic book.--196.207.47.60 (talk) 15:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Translation
The section 'Translation' is unnecessary - there is no problem translating 'Plenipotentiary' to other languages. More useful would be suggestions for simpler, less obscure English words for the function, such as 'commissioner', 'representative' or others. This section seems to be above all an advertisement for the company mentioned. 185.5.217.145 (talk) 21:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I find the discussion about translating plenipotentiary slightly suspect. If German Bevollmächtigt(er)translates as plenipotentiary, does Dutch gevolmachtigde translate similarly? Remember that here a "gevolmachtigde" translates as mandatee, attorney in fact, authorized person, or in some cases proxy. Analysis of the roots shows that the word volmacht/vollmächt is a literal transcription of two Latin words plenum and potens (full and power). I have a feeling that the person who contributed this remark might have been slightly missing the point. Augusta2 (talk) 00:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Over a decade and a half later, deleted in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plenipotentiary&diff=prev&oldid=1220314375. See changeset comment for pointer to the (brief) discussion. 2A0D:6FC2:6A90:4D00:0:0:0:5F9 (talk) 00:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

confusing tags
The later parts of the article have been tagged { { confusing } } since last year. I've added a tag at the top of the article, since I think the whole thing is confusing. I reads to me as though the whole thing was translated from another language.--76.93.42.50 (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've had a go at editing the page for general readability, I think it's a lot better now although could still do with more work and needs some references. Have not touched the section on the Nazi Reich as I don't have the historical knowledge. Magellan762 (talk) 08:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Extinction
Is it worth mentioning that plenipotentiaries have been very rare since World War II? Almost all treaties go through a process of negotiation, execution, and finally ratification by some sort of legislature. Under the U.S. constitution, for instance, it is impossible to have a plenipotentiary. Adams, Franklin and Jay were all named pursuant to the old Articles of Confederation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomenclaturist (talk • contribs) 06:35, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Diplomats
I think you mean the City State of Vatican City, not Venice? --Truthmonkey (talk) 16:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Viceroy of India
I think it just be explained in the article that the last British Viceroy of India, Lord Mountbatten was given plenipotentiary powers in 1947 for his dealings with the Indian nationalist leaders. This is a rare example of the powers being used post 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donald Trefusis (talk • contribs) 13:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Plenipotentiary


text:
List of heliports in Canada

This is an alphabetical list of heliports in Canada. It includes all Nav Canada certified and registered heliports in the provinces and territories of Canada.

They are listed in the format:

 * Airport name as listed in the Canada Flight Supplement (CFS), ICAO code, community served, and province and coordinates.

The airport name in the CFS may differ from the name used by the airport authority.

title: List of heliports in Canada


text:
The Pet Network

The Pet Network was a Canadian English language Category B specialty channel owned by Stornoway Communications. The channel broadcast entertainment and information programming for children and adults primarily related to pets in the form of feature films, documentary films, television dramas, cartoons, docuseries, and more.

History
In November 2000, a joint venture between Stornoway Communications and Cogeco were granted approval by the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) to launch a television channel called The Pet Network, described as "a national English-language Category 2 specialty television service devoted to pets and working animals." Prior to the channel's launch, in January 2004, the CRTC approved an application that would see Stornoway acquire Cogeco's interest in the proposed service, along with all other services owned by Stornoway, namely ichannel and bpm:tv.

In November 2004, Stornoway announced that it had reached an agreement with Rogers Communications to launch the channel on its digital cable platform in December 2004. The channel subsequently ran a 30-minute promotional program on a loop from November 23 until its official launch on December 3 at 5:00pm EST.

The channel would subsequently be added to various other television services providers over the years since its launch, however, the largest being Shaw Cable and Shaw Direct, added in October and November 2010, respectively. The launch on the Shaw Communications-owned platforms gave the channel wide distribution in Western Canada on cable and nationally via satellite. On November 12, 2012, to coincide with the launch of the channel's 2012-2013 fall programming launch, The Pet Network underwent a rebranding including of a new logo, on-air graphics, and website.

In early April 2016, it was revealed by several television service providers, via their respective websites and other communications, that the channel would cease broadcasting on May 2, 2016. Stornoway Communications, who earlier shuttered another one of its own television channels, bpm:tv, in June 2015, revealed through regulatory filings, that it shuttered the channel and was requesting to revoke its broadcast licence due to inabilities in securing financially sustainable distribution agreements with television service providers. The company would later that year exit the television broadcasting business entirely when it shuttered its last remaining channel, ichannel, citing the same reasons for closing The Pet Network.

title: The Pet Network


text: User talk:137.22.11.206

title: User talk:137.22.11.206


text: User talk:68.20.1.76

title: User talk:68.20.1.76


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Brown

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. — J I P | Talk 05:43, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Alexander Brown
Non-notable bio, vanity. Brown is a high school graduate of 2003, has his only novel published the same year. Novel appears to be published by a vanity press (Authorhouse or 1st Books), Amazon sales rank #2,554,188 in Books with two suspiciously effusive 5-star user reviews. I will also put the novel Alexander Browns: Sweet Dreams on AFD shortly. He may have great things in his future, but it isn't yet time for his encyclopedia bio. Quale 03:19, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete vanity puff piece for a author whose work is only published by a vanity press. Insufficient notability, and Wikipedia isn't a promotional tool. Average Earthman 11:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Obvious vanity entry. --Calton | Talk 11:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Certainly looks like vanity, but if indeed it is penned by Brown himself, he's not actually very good at writing... CLW
 * Delete. Vanity author. Anybody can publish anything on Amazon. Andrew pmk | Talk 00:04, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do Whatever You Wish. For Future Reference I personally am not Alexander Brown, nor do I know him personally, However he is a regionally well-known writer. I apologize if my bio for him it appeared to be vain, but I fixed it to where it appears much as a stub, but I didn't have much to go on whlie writing the bio. I guess that is why I created the article here so maybe he will be a little well known and maybe if he so chooses can disclose more info about his life, I do recomend you at least read his novel beofre deleteing it, and then maybe you will see why it actually deserves to be listed, even as it is just a regionally well-known book. And I love the way you insult other users in these little forums, perhaps you should actually think before posting little rude comments.  But You know what, I'll delete it myself... Go Fuck yourselves.   southernrequiem |  12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Above comment by User: On File who blanked the page in question and is now trolling by listing perfectly good articles to Afd. jni 16:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Don't Delete. I created the article out of respect for the Author, and for love of the book. After seeing the mess that was created on this site, by someone using my name I have taken full-reponsibility for their actions. I apologize for their apparent immaturity, I also apologize for my apparent in-ability to meet the high standards needed for this site, so on behalf of myself I accept if you must delete my article, but I wish you would not.   Southernrequiem | Talk, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Category:Byzantinists

Specialists in Byzantine history and culture.

title: Category:Byzantinists


text:
Transportation bill

In the United States, the federal transportation bill refers to any of a number of multi-year funding bills for surface transportation programs. These have included:

 * Surface Transportation and Uniform Relocation Assistance Act, 1987
 * Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act (ISTEA), 1991
 * The National Highway System Designation Act (NHS), 1995
 * Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA-21), 1998
 * Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU), 2005
 * Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act (MAP-21), 2012
 * Fixing America’s Surface Transportation Act (FAST), 2015
 * Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, 2021

Previous multi-year highway spending bills were known as Federal-Aid Highway Acts.

title: Transportation bill


text:
Siege of Turin

The Siege of Turin took place from June to September 1706, during the War of the Spanish Succession. A French army led by Louis de la Feuillade besieged the Savoyard capital of Turin, whose relief by Prince Eugene of Savoy has been called the most brilliant campaign of the war in Italy. The siege is also famous for the death of Piedmontese hero Pietro Micca.

By 1706, France occupied most of the Duchy of Savoy, leaving only its capital Turin in the possession of its ruler, Victor Amadeus. On 19 April, Louis Joseph, Duke of Vendôme, consolidated the French position in Lombardy by victory at Calcinato. Shortly afterwards, Prince Eugene resumed command of Imperial troops in Northern Italy, while Vendôme was recalled to France in July, and replaced by the Duke of Orleans.

De la Feuillade began siege operations on 2 June but made little progress, while Prince Eugene out manoeuvred the French field army under Orleans, and joined forces with 7,000 cavalry led by Victor Amadeus. Despite being outnumbered overall, the Allies were able to concentrate their forces; on 7 September, they attacked the French south of Turin, and after fierce fighting, broke through their lines.

The French were forced to withdraw from Northern Italy, allowing Victor Amadeus to recover most of Piedmont, although his possessions north of the Alps were occupied by France until 1713. In March 1707, France, Savoy and Emperor Joseph signed the Convention of Milan, ending the war in Italy.

Background
The War of the Spanish Succession was triggered by the death in November 1700 of the childless Charles II of Spain. He named his heir as Philip of Anjou, grandson of Louis XIV of France, and on 16 November, he became king of the Spanish Empire. In addition to mainland Spain, this included the Spanish Netherlands, large parts of Italy, and much of Central and South America. In 1701, disputes over territorial and commercial rights led to war between France, Spain, and the Grand Alliance, whose candidate was Charles, younger son of Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor.

Fighting in Northern Italy centred on the Spanish-held Duchies of Milan and Mantua, which were considered essential to the security of Austria's southern borders. In March 1701, French troops occupied both cities; Victor Amadeus II, Duke of Savoy, allied with France, in return for which his daughter Maria Luisa married Philip V.

In October 1703, Victor Amadeus decided his interests were better served by switching sides to join the Grand Alliance and during 1704, French armies under de la Feuillade captured Savoyard territories north of the Alps in Villefranche and the County of Savoy. Vendôme conducted a simultaneous offensive in Piedmont, and by the end of 1705 Turin was the only significant city still under Savoyard control.

To prevent interference from Imperial forces in Lombardy, Vendôme took the offensive and his victory at Calcinato on 19 April drove them into the Trentino valley. The Austrian commander Prince Eugene returned from Vienna and quickly restored order; this left 30,000 Imperial troops around Verona facing 40,000 French spread between the Mincio and Adige rivers. On 12 May, 48,000 men under de la Feuillade arrived outside Turin, although they did not completely encircle it until 19 June.

However, after a serious defeat at Ramillies in Flanders on 23 May, Louis XIV ordered Vendôme back to France and on 8 July he relinquished command in Italy to the inexperienced Philippe II, Duke of Orléans, although it has been argued he was fortunate to be recalled before Prince Eugene exposed his poor strategic planning for the theatre. Orléans was given Ferdinand de Marsin as his main advisor and while neither was a match for the prince, Vendôme was confident they could prevent him intervening at Turin.

Siege

Turin's defences were divided into the outer city, containing the residential and commercial areas, with a fortified Citadel at its core; normal practice was to take the city first, allowing the besiegers to bombard the citadel from close range. Hoping to speed up operations, La Feuillade decided to begin firing on the citadel as soon as possible, from gun positions constructed 300 metres outside the city.

Since 1696, the citadel had been significantly improved based on designs provided by the French military engineer Vauban, and much of it was now underground, including 15 km of tunnels used for counter sapping operations. Vauban pointed out firing from that distance meant they could only target the higher part of the walls, not the base, and allegedly offered to have his throat cut if Turin was captured using this approach.

Leaving the Austrian general Philipp von Daun in command of the garrison, Victor Amadeus escaped from the city on 17 June with 7,000 cavalry. Attempting to buy time for Prince Eugene, he spent the next two months attacking French supply lines, while La Feuillade continued siege operations 'with more obstinacy than success.' As Vauban predicted, the bombardment inflicted considerable damage, but the citadel remained largely intact, and French mining attempts proved unsuccessful.

On 15 August, Prince Eugene began his advance on Turin, easily evading Orléans' covering force; on 29th, he reached Carmagnola south of Turin, where he was joined by Victor Amadeus. Often overlooked, this was a considerable achievement, comparable in skill and execution to Marlborough's march to the Danube. Taking over a battered and defeated army, Prince Eugene first reorganised it, then ...marched 200 miles in 24 days...crossed four major rivers, pierced lines drawn between the mountains to the seas to stop him...and drove superior numbers of the enemy before him.

Aware of his approach, Orléans joined La Feuillade, and their combined force made three assaults between 27 August and 3 September. All were repulsed with heavy loss; Pietro Micca was killed on 31 August, after exploding a mine to prevent the French breaking into one of the tunnels underneath the citadel. Including deaths from disease, the leading cause during a prolonged siege, the French suffered losses of 10,000, the garrison 4,500.

Battle

Despite their losses, French forces around Turin still outnumbered the combined Imperial-Savoyard relief force of 30,000, but they were dispersed along 25 km of defences, and morale was low after the failed and costly assaults. On 5 September, the Savoyard-Imperial army concentrated at Collegno, between the Dora Riparia and the Stura di Lanzo rivers near a weak spot in the French lines.

On 7 September, Prince Eugene divided his force into eight columns, each split into two lines, leaving gaps between each one for their artillery. Johann of Saxe-Gotha (1677-1707) commanded the right, Charles of Württemberg the left, and Leopold of Anhalt-Dessau the centre. The battle began with an artillery exchange, but the Imperial guns made little impact on the French entrenchments, and around 11:00 am, Prince Eugene ordered a general assault. Although Charles of Württemberg broke through on the left, the rest of the army was held up, before repeated attacks by Leopold, supported by a sortie led by von Daun, finally forced the French to retreat.

Orléans was wounded, as was Marsin, who was captured and died the next day; French casualties ranged from 7,000 to 9,000 (including between 3,200 and 6,000 prisoners), those of the Allies ranged from 3,500 to 4,800. The French withdrew from Turin, abandoning their siege artillery, and retreated towards Pinerolo; Victor Amadeus re-entered his capital the same day.

Aftermath

On 8 September, a French detachment in Lombardy under the Count of Médavy defeated a Hessian corps at Castiglione but this did not affect the strategic position. French garrisons in Pinerolo and Susa were withdrawn, and the forts reoccupied by Savoy. In 1708, Victor Amadeus gained the minor Duchy of Montferrat, but Nice and the County of Savoy were not returned by France until 1713. Savoyard ambitions to gain Milan remained unfulfilled for another 150 years.

To the fury of his Allies, in March 1707 Emperor Joseph signed the Convention of Milan with France, ending the war in Northern Italy. In return for handing over Milan and Mantua to Austria, French and Spanish troops were repatriated with all their equipment; many were sent to Southern France, where they helped defeat an Allied attack on the French naval base at Toulon in July. In April, Joseph captured the Spanish-ruled Kingdom of Naples, leaving Austria the dominant power in Italy for the first time in two centuries.

After Italian unification in the 19th century, Pietro Micca became an example of patriotism and loyalty to the new Italian state. He was the hero of the 1938 film Pietro Micca; on the tercentenary of his death in 2006, a number of studies were published to mark the occasion, including Le Aquile e i Gigli; Una storia mai scritta, by Cerino Badone.

In 2004, construction of an underground carpark in the Piazza Vittorio Veneto uncovered 22 skeletons dating from the early 18th century; a study published in 2019 indicates these are almost certainly casualties from the 1706 siege.

title: Siege of Turin


text:
Talk:List of heliports in Canada

Untitled
I have no intention of creating articles for the heliports. While most will be static there are enough that will change every time the CFS is updated to make it pointless. CambridgeBayWeather 03:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of heliports in Canada


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Greg Pratt

Gregory Pratt, M.D. is a fictional character from the medical drama series ER, portrayed by Mekhi Phifer. He first appears as a recurring character towards the end of the eighth season, becoming a main character from the start of the ninth season until the start of the fifteenth season.

Character overview
Pratt's first appearance as the main character was late in Season 8 in the episode "Orion in the Sky" (2002), as a smart but arrogant intern from VA hospital. He meets Dr. Mark Greene on Greene's last day at County and is initially dismissive of him, before becoming more measured when he learns of Mark's terminal cancer, and by day's end has learned a little about practicing medicine from Dr. Greene. Dr. Pratt wasn't present at Dr. Greene's funeral but in a flashback episode in Season 12 "Body & Soul", it revealed Dr. Pratt worked that day at the hospital since it was understaffed with most of the doctors at Dr. Greene's memorial. Pratt later inherits Dr. Greene's locker.

At the beginning of his residency, Pratt shows immediate leadership and quick precision. His limited experience and cowboy antics often leads Pratt to collide with his chief resident Dr. John Carter and other attendings on many occasions, including a procedure he is unqualified to do (though the patient survives) and resuscitating a patient who has been declared dead, and is brain-dead upon his "revival." He initially clashes with med student Michael Gallant as Michael's military background makes him more by-the-book whereas Pratt likes to circumvent the rules, but they later become close friends. During the critical smallpox outbreak, Pratt proves his skills and courage as a swift physician by helping Dr. Luka Kovač and Dr. Jing-Mei Chen save Dr. Romano's life. The hospital is thrown into chaos during the evacuation gone awry, and he along with Dr. John Carter, Abby Lockhart, and Dr. Jing-Mei "Deb" Chen is forced to quarantine in the ER.

Character arc: Seasons 9-15
In Season 9, Pratt begins an off/on relationship with fellow physician, Dr. Jing-Mei "Deb" Chen. During the series, it was revealed that Pratt had a mentally disabled adopted brother named Leon living with him, a man who kept Pratt safe and focused on school during his childhood but was left with the reasoning ability of a small child after surviving a gunshot to the head. Due to his disability, Leon often got into trouble and would disrupt Pratt's professional and personal life, especially when he became involved with a group of thugs who stabbed him in the buttock over a confiscated gun, got him thrown in jail overnight, and then made him join them on a robbery that ended with one of the thugs dead and a cop badly injured. To help give Pratt a break, Carter suggested that Leon leave town for a while, leading Pratt to send his brother away to stay with other family members in Baltimore. Leon never returned to the show and was not mentioned again in future seasons. Pratt and medical student Michael Gallant were briefly held for questioning by the Chicago police after a robbery/homicide occurred at a diner across the street; Chen had said that she might have seen a black man fleeing the scene.

During the tenth season, Pratt was supposedly fired by the frustrated Dr. Romano, whom he had been bumping heads with ever since Romano took over the ER. This was based on bogus allegations that Romano was collecting because of his overall dislike of Dr. Pratt, planning to build them up until he had enough ammunition to get rid of Pratt for good. However, Romano never got to present these findings before the hospital director since he never showed up at the conference (unbeknownst to the others, he had been killed minutes earlier by a helicopter that crashed in the ambulance bay and crushed him). Dr. Anspaugh, correctly assuming that Romano was biased, told Pratt to keep up the good work.

Pratt and Chen's continuing relationship began to break down when Pratt's casual flirting with a new medical student Neela Rasgotra led to Pratt telling Chen he did not see them having a serious future together. Their relationship ended early in Season 10 and Chen was often curt and dismissive towards Pratt for a long while, but they eventually became friends again.

In Season 10's season finale "Drive", Pratt is involved in a road rage shooting while driving a recent patient, Elgin Gibbs, home en route to dinner with Dr. Chen. As Pratt tried to drive away from the shooter, his car was forced off a bridge and into the Chicago River, leading to Pratt sustaining serious head injuries, and Chen suffering a broken leg. Elgin died from his injuries. Their interactions became infrequent due to Chen's family problems, but Pratt went over to her house during Season 11's Christmas Eve episode when he learned she quit. Chen's father begged her to let him die so she injects him with a drug that kills him, and Pratt was aghast by this idea but ultimately supported Chen as she performed euthanasia, and then consoled her as she wept over the loss of her family. This ends his life and Pratt and Chen's relationship since Chen returns to China to bury her father's remains and is never heard from again.

For the Chief Resident post that came up in season 11, Pratt was backed at first by Dr. Luka Kovač and later by Dr. Susan Lewis, who had often been critical of his job performance in the past but told him she could see herself backing him for the job. However, he decided against applying for the position due to the extra workload, which was subsequently awarded to Dr. Archie Morris- who was goofy and awkward and had none of Pratt's natural leadership and communications skills.

Dr. Pratt comes to terms with his clouded past at the end of Season 11, making contact with his estranged father, Charlie Pratt (portrayed by Danny Glover). But, following on in Season 12, Pratt was unable to forgive his father for their estrangement even though proof emerged that Charlie had been forced out of Greg's life by his mom, and ended any reconciliation efforts. Later, after much counsel, Pratt restored ties with his half-brother Chaz (portrayed by Sam Jones III).

In the episode, "Strange Bed Fellows," Dr. Luka Kovač instructs Pratt to go to Darfur, Africa to join Dr. John Carter in a Doctors Without Borders program after Pratt helped a friend avoid a DUI by sending a vial of his blood for the blood alcohol test, rather than his friend's; the friend later drove drunk and nearly killed a kid. To avoid legal repercussions and also to force him to think about the actions Dr. Kovač sends him away. When Pratt challenges Kovač and says he won't go, Kovač says he has two choices: leave for Darfur or have the DUI case info released and see his medical career come to an end. Pratt eventually decides to go, allowing him to move up to the position of attending physician, which Dr. Victor Clemente could not fulfill. Pratt becomes a better doctor for going to Darfur as he gets a sense of what it means to push himself under genuinely impossible and horrifying conditions. He sincerely thanks Luka for making him go, and the two doctors are back on good terms afterward.

At the start of season 13, Pratt achieves his new title as attending, while Chaz moves in with him after Charlie abuses him and he joins Greg in cutting all ties to his rotten dad. However, later on, Pratt discovers his brother in a compromising position with another man. After much denial and a talk with Dr. Kerry Weaver Pratt begins to understand and accept his brother's homosexuality. He also supports his brother's new job as an Emergency Medical Technician but clashes with Chaz's co-workers after they encourage him to drink near-fatal amounts of alcohol.

Later in the season, Pratt discovered a church holding an illegal prescription drugs exchange program between church members. Pratt tried to reason with the pastor to seek better alternatives. With no compromise being met, he decided to take part in the program to make it safer by donating some narcotics from the ER. However, when a member of the church died as a result of the drug exchange, an investigation was conducted by police and social workers. Pratt soon admitted to his chief, Dr. Kovač, that he was solely involved in the scheme, preventing any repercussions on the department. Pratt was arrested by the police (though Kovač helped bail him out) and was put before the review board at the hospital for an explanation of his actions. Surprisingly, Pastor Watkins of First Mission Baptist and his congregation showed up on Pratt's behalf and explained the entire story of his contribution. The board subsequently dismissed Pratt from any suspension, allowing him to retain his medical license and job. Near the end of the season, Kovač asked Pratt to be the best man at his wedding and Greg said yes.

After being overlooked for the position of Chief of the ER in favor of a new attending Dr. Skye Wexler, Pratt submitted his two-week notice of resignation stating that the administration of the County General did not respect him; however, he soon changed his mind after meeting former Physician Assistant Jeanie Boulet. After this, Pratt pursued the ER Chief position and finally was able to have a serious adult relationship with the radiologist Dr. Bettina DeJesus.

At the end of the Season 14 finale, "The Chicago Way," Pratt entered an ambulance, which was transporting a patient (portrayed by Steve Buscemi), who revealed himself to be a government informant in Witness Protection. With a botched attempt made on the patient's life in the ER, the Turkish mob targeting Pratt's patient finally succeeded when they booby-trapped the ambulance Pratt rode in. A subsequent explosion resulted in a season-ending cliffhanger.

Character death and 15th season
He died in the Season 15 premiere, "Life After Death," from injuries sustained in an explosion. Dr. Morris tried to save him, but failed. It was further revealed in the episode that Pratt was going to receive an offer to become the new Chief of the ER. Former doctors, such as Dr. Kerry Weaver from Florida and Dr. John Carter from Africa, sent their condolences and gifts in honor of Pratt.

In the end, Morris hands Bettina the engagement ring Pratt had intended to give her. Among the ER staff who came to memoralize him at Ike's bar were Dr. Abby Lockhart, Dr. Archie Morris, Dr. Neela Rasgotra, Dr. Tony Gates, Sam Taggart, Simon Brenner, Chuny Marquez, Haleh Adams, Malik McGrath, Frank Martin, Paramedic Dumars, and his brother Chaz, who had become a new med student about halfway through Season 15.

During the 15th and final season of ER, at the end of the episode "The Book of Abby," long-serving nurse Haleh Adams shows the departing Dr. Abby Lockhart a closet wall where all the past doctors and employees have put their locker name tags. Amongst them, the tag "Pratt" can be seen.

title: Greg Pratt


text:
Talk:List of United States presidents by age at ascension to office

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This will be very nice, when done. FrogieFever 03:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

JFK Picture
Should we include a picture of JFK, the youngest president ever elected? --67.1.157.21 00:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Question
Why is this list oldest first not youngest first? --BozMo talk 12:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposal for saving these lists
After the recent deletion discussion at Articles for deletion/List of United States Presidents by longevity in which a similar list to this barely survived I thought maybe it'd be good to take some preemptive steps to save this list and others. One of the things raised in the discussion was that there were just too many lists about us presidents and that users supported certain lists, but not others. I just spent some time learning how to use sortable lists and I came up with this: User:JayHenry/president. It's not completely finished yet, but I'm ready to see what people think -- it combines all of the information from List of United States Presidents by longevity, List of United States presidents by age at ascension to office, List of United States Presidents by time as former president, it also includes dates of birth and death, although it would not be a good replacement for those lists, as they contain other information (place, cause, etc.). The list is fully sortable! So what do people think? If we implement this list I'm pretty sure we can prevent president lists from showing up at WP:AFD. With some help, this could possibly even be a featured list! --JayHenry 21:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


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Launchpad (website)

Launchpad is a web application and website that allows users to develop and maintain software, particularly open-source software. It is developed and maintained by Canonical Ltd.

On 21 July 2009, the source code was released publicly under the GNU Affero General Public License. , the Launchpad repository hosts more than 40,000 projects. The domain launchpad.net attracted 1 million visitors by August 2009 according to a Compete.com survey.

Components
It has several parts:
 * Answers: a community support site and knowledge base.
 * Blueprints: a system for tracking new features.
 * Bugs: a bug tracker that allows bugs to be tracked in multiple contexts (e.g. in an Ubuntu package, as an upstream, or in remote bug trackers).
 * Code: source code hosting, with support for the Bazaar and Git version control systems.
 * Translations: a site for localising applications into different languages.

A significant but less visible component is Soyuz, "the distribution management portion of Launchpad." Launchpad is currently primarily used in the development of Ubuntu, an operating system. Launchpad uses the FOSS (free/open source) Zope 3 application server.

Users
Several of Canonical Ltd.'s own projects use Launchpad for development including Ubuntu and Bazaar. Development of Launchpad is itself managed in Launchpad.

Other prominent projects using Launchpad for various aspects of managing their development include:
 * JOSM (translations)
 * Linux Mint (translations)
 * MariaDB (mailing list)
 * OpenStack (bug tracking)
 * Pinta (bug tracking and translations)
 * Upstart
 * elementary OS

Transition to free software
Launchpad was initially criticized by the Jem Report and other members of the free software community for not being available under a free license, such as the GNU GPL, despite its aims. In response, the developers stated that they aimed to eventually release it under a free software license, but that it could potentially take years. On 9 July 2007, Canonical Ltd. released Storm, the first Launchpad component made available under a free software license.

Founder Mark Shuttleworth's responded to this criticism saying "we are all actively working on making Launchpad open source" adding that the funding the salaries of Launchpad's developers to be higher priority, and claiming immediate release would result multiple unfederated instances of Launchpad. However, this still left some members of the open-source movement dissatisfied. On 22 July 2008, Mark Shuttleworth announced at OSCON that the complete source code would be released within the next twelve months.

On 19 December 2008, Canonical Ltd. released the Launchpad component "lazr.config" and "lazr.delegates" under version 3 of the GNU LGPL.

An open API is currently in beta testing, which will allow programs to interact with the website. Calls for an open API to be released were aided by projects like Leonov that resorted to screen scraping to get data from Launchpad.

In December 2008, Canonical announced that the source code to the Launchpad website would be released under a free software license by 21 July 2009. It was also announced that two large components of Launchpad, Soyuz (which is responsible for the build system, package management and Ubuntu package publishing) and Codehosting, would not be released under a free software license. Later, the specific date was changed to a more general timeframe of July/August 2009. However, on 21 July 2009, the software was released under the AGPLv3 (a fully free license specifically for web services), including the two components (Codehosting and Soyuz) that were initially planned to remain proprietary.

title: Launchpad (website)


text:
Talk:Morris Ketchum

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His son Edw. B. has no article yet, but his DoB on LoPbN Kem-Kez comes from Re: Margaret Ketchum,b.1847; Morris Ketchum. --Jerzy•t 03:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

His own dates, also on LoPbN, come from The Ancestors of Julia Stimson Thorne (b. 1945); tho his bio focuses on rail matters, it seems probable he is also the bank director. --Jerzy•t 04:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Way cool. Interesting connection to a recent presidential candidate too.  Using both references together, I think it's pretty certain that they are the same Morris Ketchum.  Thanks for the links! slambo 10:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Morris Ketchum