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Robbie Earle

Robert Fitzgerald Earle MBE (born 27 January 1965) is an English-born Jamaican former international footballer who played as an attacking midfielder. He played 578 league games in senior club football, scoring 136 goals.

A former youth player with Stoke City, Earle broke into the professional game with Port Vale in 1982. He spent nine years at the Burslem based club, helping "The Vale" to promotion out of the Fourth Division in 1982–83 and 1985–86, and out of the Third Division via the play-offs in 1989; he was later voted the club's PFA Fans' Favourites. He moved on to Wimbledon in 1991, where he also spent nine years. He made nearly 300 league games for each club, scoring 77 and 59 goals, respectively. He also represented Jamaica on 8 occasions between 1997 and 1998, scoring one international goal. He appeared in the 1998 World Cup, scoring his nation's first-ever goal in the finals.

Following his retirement in 2000, Earle has established himself in football journalism. He regularly appears in print, on the radio and television. He was dismissed from his punditry role with ITV in 2010 after he passed ITV World Cup tickets to a third party. After spending time as television broadcast analyst for the Portland Timbers of Major League Soccer, he is now a commentator for the Premier League on NBC Sports.

Port Vale
An attacking midfielder, Earle was a junior player at Stoke City whilst he attended Longton High School. However, after suffering from a broken leg, he was released from the Victoria Ground. He was snapped up by Stoke's local rivals Port Vale, where he turned professional in 1982. He had been scouted by Ray Williams.

Earle made his Port Vale debut under John McGrath in a 1–0 defeat by Swindon Town at the County Ground on 28 August 1982. He scored his first goal in his next appearance, in a 4–1 win over Aldershot at the Recreation Ground. He finished the 1982–83 campaign with one goal in nine appearances, as the "Valiants" won promotion out of the Fourth Division. He made 13 appearances in 1983–84; John Rudge replaced McGrath as manager in December, but could not stop the club from sliding straight back out of the Third Division.

Earle won a regular first-team place in August 1984. He hit 19 goals in 56 games in 1984–85, including a hat-trick against Hereford United at Vale Park on 2 February; Earle and Alistair Brown's partnership got the club a combined total of 40 goals. An ever-present in the 1985–86 Fourth Division promotion squad, he scored 17 goals in 58 games; he and strike partner Andy Jones bagged a total of 35 goals for the club. Earle made 142 consecutive appearances between September 1984 and January 1987, the run coming to an end due to a groin strain. The strain led to a hernia operation in the autumn of 1987, but he returned to first-team action in January 1988. He scored seven goals in 35 games in 1986–87 and scored four goals in 11 games in 1987–88. That season, he played in the FA Cup upset when Vale knocked out Tottenham Hotspur. A regular in the 1988–89 season, Rudge claimed that Earle and Ray Walker was one of the best-ever midfield partnerships at the Vale. He scored both goals past Bristol Rovers in the two-legged 1989 play-off final that took Vale through to the Second Division. After the match Earle wept in the tunnel, such was his emotions to have taken his local team to victory in the play-off final. Throughout the 1988–89 campaign, he scored 19 goals in 57 appearances.

He scored 12 goals in 52 games in 1989–90, including one in a 1–1 draw with Stoke City at the Victoria Ground on 23 September. He remained a vital player in 1990–91, hitting the net 11 times in 37 appearances. As he was affectionately known, 'The Black Pearl' played 357 times for the "Valiants" and scored 90 goals. A cult hero, he is considered one of the best midfielders ever to play for the club. In July 1991 he was transferred to Wimbledon for a fee of £775,000 (and 30% of any future transfer fee above that figure). It was later reported that Wimbledon chairman Sam Hammam had locked Earle in a room during transfer negotiations and only let him out when he agreed to sign for Wimbledon.

Wimbledon
Earle played an important part in the South London club's success during the nineties, and in particular, the club's 'Crazy Gang' mentality, which fostered team spirit and intimidated opposing players. He played alongside cult figures such as Aidan Newhouse, John Fashanu, Vinnie Jones, Lawrie Sanchez, Jason Euell, Dean Holdsworth, Marcus Gayle, Andy Clarke and Efan Ekoku. Earle was known for his late runs into the box, his ability to finish, and his agility at heading the ball.

His first season at the club was turbulent, as manager Ray Harford was replaced by Peter Withe, who in turn was replaced by Joe Kinnear; nevertheless, Earle scored 14 league goals to help the "Dons" to maintain to their top-flight status. He scored seven goals in the newly formed Premier League in the 1992–93 season, including two in a 3–2 win over Liverpool at Anfield, and nine goals in 1993–94 – when Wimbledon finished a club best sixth in the final table.

After injury limited him to nine goalless appearances in 1994–95 (when Wimbledon still finished ninth), he regained his fitness for the following season. He was appointed club captain. His 11 goals in 1995–96 went some way towards securing Wimbledon's survival in 15th place; he scored against Manchester United, Tottenham Hotspur, Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester City, Blackburn Rovers and Bolton Wanderers. Under his captaincy in 1996–97, the Selhurst Park side reached the semi-finals of both the FA Cup and League Cup, where they were beaten by eventual winners Chelsea and Leicester City respectively. In February 1997, he was handed the Premier League Player of the Month award.

The club survived again in 1997–98, though dropped from fourth in December to 15th by the season's end. He scored seven goals in all competitions in 1998–99 as Wimbledon again reached the semi-finals of the League Cup; however, they finished just two places and six points above the Premier League relegation zone. The "Dons" then struggled under new manager Egil Olsen, and were relegated on the final day of the 1999–2000 season after losing 2–0 to Southampton at The Dell.

During a reserve team game for Wimbledon in 2000, Earle sustained a heavy blow to the stomach and became seriously ill with a ruptured pancreas. At the age of 35 he was forced to give up playing in November 2000. His retirement coincided with the end of the 'Crazy Gang'. In nine years as a Wimbledon player, he made 244 league appearances for the South London club, scoring 59 goals. Towards his end of his time at the club he began coaching the reserve team.

"'One afternoon in hospital I was told that I had picked up an infection again. By this time I had lost 4 st. My breathing was irregular, I was in agony. If somebody had told me that death was the best choice, I'd have accepted it – anything to take away the pain.'"

International career
Though English-born, Earle was eligible to play for Jamaica at international level because of his Jamaican parents. He hoped to be called up to the England squad, before he accepted the call-up from Jamaica at the age of 32. Earle was the scorer of Jamaica's first ever World Cup goal, in a 3–1 defeat by Croatia at the Stade Félix-Bollaert, at the 1998 World Cup in France. He played in all three of the Group H games, as Jamaica lost 5–0 to Argentina at Parc des Princes and beat Japan 2–1 at Stade de Gerland.

Media work
Since his retirement, Earle has moved into sports journalism. He has worked for Capital Radio, Radio 5 Live, BBC, ESPN, ITV, Sky Sports and OnDigital. Earle was a regular pundit on ITV's football coverage, as well as World Football Daily, and occasionally joins the team on ESPN PressPass. He has also written columns for the London Evening Standard and for the Stoke-on-Trent Evening Sentinel.

In 2005, he took part in BBC's Strictly African Dancing as part of Africa Lives season; he scored 33 and won the competition. He also appeared in the 2007 edition of MasterChef.

In June 2010, he had his £150,000 a year contract with ITV cancelled for giving away World Cup tickets for the Netherlands v Denmark match. Meant for family and friends, he passed them on to a friend who then sold them to Bavaria Brewery. The Brewery company orchestrated an ambush marketing event in breach of FIFA rules. The incident also led to him losing his role as an ambassador for England's 2018 World Cup bid. Earle described his actions as "naive" and insisted that he had "not profited in any way". It later emerged that ITV had given Earle 400 free tickets for the tournament, including 40 for the final itself. This allocation had a RRP of around £70,000. Not permitted to sell the tickets, Earle had freely given them out to friends and family, unaware that a 'close friend' would then sell a significant number on to the Dutch company.

In March 2011, he became a broadcasting analyst at US Major League Soccer side Portland Timbers. In 2004, he was inducted into the Hall of Fame of Show Racism the Red Card. He has also appeared in television commercials promoting blood donation.

In 2013, he became one of the lead studio analysts for NBC Sports' coverage of the Premier League and a co-commentator on their Match of the Day and Premier League Download programmes.

Personal life
Earle attended Longton High School in Longton, Stoke-on-Trent. UK magazine The Vegetarian Society stated that Earle is a vegetarian.

He got married in the summer of 1989. His son, Otis, is also a footballer and was drafted by FC Dallas at the 2015 MLS SuperDraft.

Awards
Earle was appointed an MBE in 1999 for his services to football. In 2007, he was voted as Port Vale's PFA Fans' Favourites. In 2009, he was inducted into the English Football Hall of Fame as 'Football Foundation Community Champion'. He was inducted into the Stoke-on-Trent Sporting Hall of Fame in May 2018. In May 2019, he was voted into the "Ultimate Port Vale XI" by members of the OneValeFan supporter website.

International

 * Scores and results list Jamaica's goal tally first, score column indicates score after each Earle goal.

Honours
Port Vale
 * Football League Fourth Division third-place promotion: 1982–83
 * Football League Fourth Division fourth-place promotion: 1985–86
 * Football League Third Division play-offs: 1989

Individual
 * Premier League Player of the Month: February 1997
 * PFA Fans' Favourites player (Port Vale): 2007

title: Robbie Earle


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Talk:2005–06 UEFA Champions League

=Request= UEFA Champions League 2004-05 should be updated in the same form.. User:Roeeyaron, 22:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Done (Intro, Round of 16, Quarterfinals, Semifinals, Final). Be bold! --Nanouk 17:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Should we add the scorers, at least from round of 16 up? yes, I know, be bold; I'll be bold when I get finnally fired. Mariano (t/c) 09:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Idea
Well I was bored, and thought maybe something like this would be nice for in the article. I won't finish it yet, because I wanted to get some feedback first. Thoughts?  jaco plane  15:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sure we could duplicate the Template:Round16 specifically for the champions league so that there are fields for home and away games.  jaco plane  15:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I like it a lot. Much cleaner than the current one. However, it would be nice if we could add venues into it. __earth (Talk) 16:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've completed the list but the schedule doesn't allow (or I don't know how to) add first and second leg. __earth (Talk) 09:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Weee, someone actually responded! Sorry I didn't see your response, I'd pretty much given up on this discussion. What I had intended to do was to copy the template being used into a new template that would have fields for home and away games. Hmm, maybe in the next few days I'll play around with it and post the results here. jaco ♫ plane  05:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
someone has changed the scoring from the round of 16 onwards, they keep putting the rangers ahead to the semifinal, i'd change it myself, but i don't know the original scores —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.26.202.237 (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

My Mistake
I've made a little mistake with the New saints name and I fear I mucked it up a bit. It was a complete accident so please don't construe it as vandilism —Preceding unsigned comment added by The C of E (talk • contribs) 17:13, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

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Talk:Santiago Carrillo

Untitled
The article is very biased, i.e, it doesn't talk about the shooting of 5,000-10,000 persons in Paracuellos that Carillo ordered.
 * Now it talks about the incident in a POV way. The responsability of Carrillo in that incident is not proven.
 * There simply is not enough evidence in the the page to support that Carrillo did order the execution, so this shouldn't be stated as fact. A NPOV version of the article should mention the strong existent controversy on this topic, not just state one of the theories. Diego Moya 14:55, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

IS NOT PROVEN. but his enemy, monorchid dictator Franco, killed nearly one million inhabitants of the Spanish Republic, which had democracy, and established 40 years of misery and Nazism against freedom. Do not be fooled by those who want another war in europe
 * Hi, (sorry for my english): The responsability of Carrillo in that incident IS NOT PROVEN.
 * But the extreme right or Far-right TV media (most of media coverage in Spain except laSexta, which is THE ONLY on the left) they are making serious insults, like calling one fox, pig and slut, to a health minister of socialist party of spain from former government.
 * Public TV is in danger too. Fired workers who are left, and hire wife of culture minister for a TV show about politics, as a Nazi dictatorship TV (NO-DO). Except laSexta tv, which is THE ONLY on the left.
 * PLEASE HELP, Remember, if they (Dangerous Far-right media: the most of spanish media) are able to make one of the exiles of war are considered murderers, and make the murderer dictator Franco, a friend of Hitler, is regarded as a good person, the future of Europe is in danger again.
 * Resources:

The Socialists in Madrid demanding the cessation of right-wing journalist Xavier Horcajo for his attacks on homosexuals http://www.publico.es/televisionygente/360924/el-psm-exige-a-aguirre-que-deje-de-financiar-a-intereconomia Do not be fooled by those who want another war in europe. Now, I can not see any independent TV in Spain (Berlusconi bought the Spanish CNN+ and has closed, and now left laSexta is in danger, Far-Right wing "La Razón" wants to buy), I am learning English with the BBC (I think is the best TV in the world)
 * extreme right conquer spanish tv http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/ultras/conquistan/TDT/elpepusoc/20100222elpepisoc_4/Tes
 * Jordi González against far right media http://www.intereconomia.com/video/otro-gallo-cantaria/jordi-gonzalez-ataca-intereconomia-video-20110215
 * Sardá against far right media http://www.libertaddigital.com/sociedad/2011-04-16/sarda-contra-la-extrema-derecha-mediatica-intereconomia-1276420717/
 * journalists' association considers the manifestations of far-right media violate professional ethics http://www.apmadrid.es/noticias/generales/el-consejo-de-informacion-de-cataluna-considera-que-las-manifestaciones-de-garcia-serrano-en-qel-gato-al-aguaq-vulneran-la-etica-profesional?Itemid=209
 * The Socialist Party demands Madrid president to "stop funding" to the right-wing media.
 * (Former socialist vice-president) You go against me, trying to fish the ministry with changes for tonight shine, for TV networks extreme right, criticizing the police. http://www.congreso.es/public_oficiales/L9/CONG/DS/PL/PL_221.PDF#page=8

Possible factual inaccuracy
The article states that: "During the Spanish Civil War he led the Communist forces in Madrid" I believe some sources here are necessary. I doubt that a 24-years-old boy were in charge of all the Communists in Madrid. MJGR 10:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well he did certainly hold some commanding position. He was the leader of JSU, one of the fighting organizations. But the sentence certainly needs rewriting. --Soman 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact, the JSU was just one the Leftish Force Parties, even more, the JSU was SOCIALLIST, and not communist properly. Madrid was definitively a communist city more than sociallist during the war, so the idea of Carrillo leading people over the Republican Army and the Major is quite shocking to me. Erein 19:40 29 August 2006
 * You are aware that JSU functioned as the youth wing of PCE? --Soman 08:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * JSU was the merger of the youth wings of PSOE known as FJS and of PCE knwon as UJC, Carillo himself was the leader of FJS. It defined it self as a nonpartisan organisation with fraternal ties to both PSOE and PCE. Despite there was a pro-communista majority.
 * Not at all! the JSU was an independent institution, yes. But they belonged to PSOE as youth organisation. It's quite common in Spain, in fact the Partido Popular uses the same relationship structure with its youth wing, Nuevas Generaciones nowadays.

As for their links to the Communist Party, they did existed but they were more social ties than political _as a matter of fact, most of pre-war conflict were determined by communist-socialist conflicts.--Erein 16:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

POV wording
The article says that: "Carrillo enforced the party's position among the working class and intellectual groups". In my opinion, the wording of this sentence looks too pro-Carrillo as sources and data supporting it are not present. MJGR 10:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Moreover it misinterprets 'fortalezer' as 'enforce'. The influence of the party certainly grew during Carrillo, but whether this should be attributed to his persona is debatable. --Soman 13:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Launch of Eurocommunism
The article states in this sentence: "Together with Communist comrades Georges Marchais of France and Enrico Berlinguer of Italy, he launched the Eurocommunist movement in a meeting held in Madrid in March 2, 1977" that Eurocommunism was started that day but I believed that's not the case. Eurocommunism existed long before. Can somebody solve this doubt providing sources? MJGR 10:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Bias
Paracuellos is quoted as:

"(the biggest mass massacre of the Spanish Civil War)"

A discusion about who killed more and which massacre was bigger (Badajoz versus Paracuellos, etc) during the war could be endless. I will substitute for a more accurate:

"(the biggest massacre performed by the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War)"

Anyway I am open to discussion. I have included several references on the issue.Junjan 23:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Junjan 15:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest "performed in a Republican sector", as it is proved (i.e. Paul Preston, A. Beevor) that Paracuellos massacre wasn't perpetrated by soldiers but by civilians, and they acted outlaw _out Republican laws, even.

--Erein 12:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PCElogo.PNG
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Biased language
The article uses the term 'liberator' in two instances to define the fascist forces.

'at the time under heavy liberator bombardment.'

and

'the death of long-time anticomunist Spanish liberator Francisco Franco'

Franco was a fascist dictator who ruled Spain for 40 years after a three year long civil war started by him with a coup-de-etat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.198.89 (talk) 20:31, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Please provide rationale for deleting a sourced fact
Randroide (talk) 11:10, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Poor and crazy reference from a fascist book ¿is it relevant????
Poor and crazy reference: "Carrillo miente, 156 documentos contra 103 falsedades" (from fascist spanish "editorial fénix" -not the mexican one-) This would be the Spanish equivalent of a book called "gandhi was an assassin".

Do not be fooled by those who want another war in europe

title: Talk:Santiago Carrillo


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Talk:Motormark

Untitled
This article seems full of rumours and is quite badly written. Needs a rewrite! --81.242.213.114 10:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Band Hometown
I thought Motormark were from Kirkcaldy Are they actually from some other town in Fife? Can someone clarify this?

Motormark are indeed from Kirkcaldy, Scotland!!

Band Breaks Up
According to their Yahoo group the band has split, but it looks like they're now part of a band called Fake Fang? Someone might want to have a look! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.33.241 (talk) 19:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Notability
I'll accept my edit summary was overly brief and unclear: my intention was to say that the subject apparently fails WP:BAND, only noting additionally that there are currently no sources and I couldn't find any indicating anything more than their existence - but that wasn't clear from my summary. I may not be employing the correct search terms to find anything more significant but, searching again, nothing I can find notes anything more than their existence and nothing remotely approaches WP:BAND. If I've missed material genuinely indicating notability, do please add it but unless and until I think the article is appropriate for AFD. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:29, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Three years on - I've looked at the deletion discussion, which was closed as keep, and the sources identified then. I tend to agree that notability isn't established. Tacyarg (talk) 17:20, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Motormark


text: User talk:70.149.166.7

title: User talk:70.149.166.7


text:
OlympiaWorld Innsbruck

OlympiaWorld Innsbruck is a multi-purpose sports facility complex in Innsbruck, Austria. It was opened in 1963. The complex served as the Olympic Park of the 1964 and 1976 Winter Olympics, as well as the 2012 and Winter Youth Olympics.

Venues
The sports park consists of eight venues:
 * Olympiahalle Innsbruck
 * Tivoli Stadium
 * Tiroler Wasserkraft Arena
 * Tirol Sports Center
 * Olympic Sliding Centre Innsbruck
 * Indoor Funsporthallen
 * Außenanlagen
 * Eisschnellaufbahn

Concerts
The pop rock singer P!nk performed at the venue on June 5, 2010, during her Funhouse Summer Carnival tour. The Olympiahalle was suggested as the venue of the Eurovision Song Contest 2015, which was ultimately staged at Wiener Stadthalle in Vienna.

title: OlympiaWorld Innsbruck


text:
Talk:Edina, Minnesota

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Presidential election table
The presidential election table adds undue weight. The table features only one level of government, and avoids state and local leaders. The table is out-of-scope and overly detailed, and is not suggested at WP:USCITIES. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:23, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with Magnolia677. The table as presented is ugly, it is a data-dump with no accompanying text to put it in appropriate context (presumably because no secondary sources exist), and the idea that the politics of a town are best best discussed in terms of presidential election results are highly dubious at best.  --JBL (talk) 13:47, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree. To parrot what I said on another discussion, I think displaying election results has encyclopedic value and can provide insight into the demographics of the town and how the party politics of an area have changed over time. While I have no problem with adding additional lists for state and local leaders, I think at the very least showing historic presidential election results as an umbrella for the political leanings of a settlement is valuable and worth keeping. I don't think we should disregard the data because it is "ugly", simply make the tables collapsible but available for those who want it. Mbdfar (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It can provide insight in the presence of proper sources that provide analysis and interpretation of the raw data. Find those sources and the objections go away.  Without those sources, this is an unencyclopedic data-dump. --JBL (talk) 20:40, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess I just don't understand why we need secondary interpretations of this data. We don't ask that of historical population numbers, do we? AFAIK just citing the census is considered fine. WP:USCITIES#Demographics doesn't state the need for secondary sources, just a description of the data. WP:INDISCRIMINATE does address "Excessive listings of unexplained statistics", but also just states the need for accompanying text (I wouldn't call the present listing "excessive" anyway). I guess the question that remains in my mind is; is it possible to include explanatory text providing context to this information using only primary sources? Mbdfar (talk) 21:48, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is raw data. Insight (your word) is provided by analysis of raw data.  Analysis requires a secondary source, which is missing here.  Without analysis, this is exactly the kind of unexplained statistical data dump that WP:INDISCRIMINATE is talking about.  There are an infinite variety of raw data sources available about Edina (or any other place): dozens of kinds of weather data, dozens of kinds of demographic data, electoral data at all levels, economic data, ....  Each of these could potentially provide insight into Edina, with an appropriate analysis.  Secondary sources are where you find the analysis that turns this from raw data into encyclopedic coverage; they also provide guidance as to which parts of which data are actually significant, as in WP:DUE. --JBL (talk) 15:48, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, I disagree. Insight can be achieved by just providing the data with a written explanation. I'm going to use the example of historic population figures again. Having a table with population data provides insight into the size and growth rate of a settlement. No secondary sources needed, just plain, easy to understand data. Why is this any different? An election results table is not complex, and with accompanying text (all that's required of WP:INDISCRIMINATE), I fail to see where in the guidelines it says that this information should be excluded. Reiterating my question from above, if an explanation using primary and reliable sources can be written without falling under WP:OR, then why shouldn't it be included? "...dozens of kinds of weather data, dozens of kinds of demographic data, electoral data at all levels, economic data, ..." Ok, if it's properly sourced, formatted appropriately, and explained in the text, then sure! We already have templates for weather data, etc, why deprecate the use of them? These aren't opinions or concepts that can be skewed, so I don't understand why you invoked WP:DUE - would you mind elaborating on what part of that page is relevant here? Mbdfar (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , I'm just requesting a response to my questions above. I'd love to come to a consensus on this. Mbdfar (talk) 15:26, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You asked three four questions. To your first question, my answers are: it is incredibly easy to find secondary sources about populated places with longstanding census data that discuss and analyze the data, so provide something encyclopedic to say about it.  To your second third question, my answer is: see the answer to my first question.  These are data sets that get discussed all the time in all sorts of sources, so they do not suffer from the same problem.  With respect to your third fourth question, here is a quotation from WP:DUE: Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. ... Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, ....  The prominence of this information in published, reliable sources appears to be 0, and the coverage in the article should be proportional to that.  ("Someone has written at least once about a topic in a reliable secondary source" is an extremely low bar to jump over!) --JBL (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I see on re-reading that I missed one, but my response to it is covered by my response to the other three. --JBL (talk) 17:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Election results are as important, if not more, than demographics of a community. Lakeperson (talk) 16:21, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Election results, particularly for more than one election, provides valuable insight to a community, its values, and is certainly as important, probably even more, than racial demographics of a community, which is already included. Counties on Wikipedia have their election results shown and an entire county is incredibly vague on what that signifies for values. Secondary sources are literally in my posts directly from the Secretary of State Office. You can not get any more direct sourcing than that. The table is collapsible and if a person does not care to see it they do not have to. Recent political leanings are certainly more important than a historical event that occurred in a community 100 year ago. Lakeperson (talk) 18:52, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Magnolia677 has yet again engaged in an edit war after him and I literally just got through with one on similar matter (See, New Fairfield, CT) about the election table and his removal of it there. (Finally reached an end agreement of being collapsible suggested by @Mbdfar . before the article was protected by an admin because of our edit war ) I have learned from my mistake to not engage in this and yet Magnolia677 has once again gone back and fourth deleting this. I feel before it is deleted he should need to start a talk beforehand. Right now with his most recent severe action the whole Politics section has been wiped. It certainly does add encyclopedic value. Hopefully this will be reverted & Magnolia677 will be talked to about his actions on the site. Elvisisalive95 (talk) 22:00, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , Magnolia677 is not your enemy. They just have a different vision for what a quality article looks like. If Wikipedia policy is on their side, their edits will prevail. That's what we are figuring out now. Please don't WP:HOUND. Mbdfar (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair enough & understood. Elvisisalive95 (talk) 22:58, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Edina, Minnesota


text:
Francis Peck

Francis Peck (1692–1743) was an English priest of the Church of England and antiquary, best known for his Desiderata Curiosa (1732–1735).

Life
He was born in Stamford, Lincolnshire, England, the son of Robert, merchant, and baptised 4 May 1692. He may have attended Stamford School before attending Charterhouse School, from where he was admitted to St John's College, Cambridge in 1709. (Some have confused him with another Francis Peck, who was admitted to Trinity College, Cambridge in 1706.

He was ordained as priest, 27 May 1716. After a curacy at King's Cliffe, Northamptonshire, he served as Rector of Goadby Marwood, Leicestershire, from 1723 until his death. He became a prebend of Lincoln in 1738.

He wrote several books on history. In 1727 he published a history of Stamford called Academia Tertia Anglicana (Latin for 'the third English university' - a reference to the 14th-century Oxford schism in the town). He was elected to the Society of Antiquarians in 1732 and corresponded with many of the leading antiquaries and historians of the age; including Thomas Hearne, Browne Willis, Roger and Samuel Gale, and William Stukeley.

Desiderata Curiosa
His major publication is the Desiderata Curiosa, a two-volume miscellany (published 1732–1735). There is an engraved frontispiece portrait of Peck (by R. Collins, from life) in volume I, and nine other plates, as well as integral engravings in the text; Stukeley presented the plate of Henry Wykys, vicar of All Saints' Church, Stamford. The work contains a major biography of Sir William Cecil, Lord Burghley, Queen Elizabeth I's Lord High Treasurer and chief advisor for much of her reign.

Peck, Francis, Desiderata Curiosa. "Volume the First. Containing, I. The complete Statesman, exemplified in the Life and Action of Sir William Cecil, Lord Burghley, Lord High Treasurer of England in Queen Elizabeth’s Time; largely setting forth both his public and private Conduct. With many Notes from his own MS. Diary, and other Authors [together with 29 other tracts named on the title-pages and] many other Memoirs, Letters, Wills, and Epitaphs; amounting in all to above 150 curious Articles; all now published from original MSS. communicated by eminent Persons … Adorned with Cuts. London: Printed 1732"

Volume the Second, printed 1735, contains a further 150 "curious Articles".

Some copies of the first edition have a cancel title page for Volume I (as called for in the "Directions to the Binder" in Volume II). The cancelland is sometimes retained as the "general title-page".

title: Francis Peck


text:
Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 October 5

Category:Millennial Wikipedians to Category:Generation Y Wikipedians

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus (no change) --Kbdank71 16:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Unresolved note. I am keeping this open for another 7 days. The third category option should not have been created until consensus was reached. Please vote Delete, Keep (which one), or Merge (to where) between these 3 categories only:
 * Category:Millennial Wikipedians
 * Category:Generation Y Wikipedians
 * Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians
 * Sockpuppet votes have been stricken. Unfortunately were going strictly with numbers this time, as everyone has a different comment. ∞ Who ? ¿ ?  06:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

There's no need to have two such categories. Let's use only the one which is uncontroversial, there are no users who "do not accept to be described" as Generation Y AFAIK, and the title is also clearer. Army1987 14:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete both Imprecise and slangy. This whole scheme is a bad idea imo. But if we must have it, the categories should be named by decade, ie. Wiikipedians born in the 1980s etc. CalJW 14:19, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * DELETE BOTH. Same old stuff - vanity pages for a clique within a clique.  Juvenile, egotistical, unencyclopedic, worthless.  Grow up, grow up grow up, or you will continue to be not taken seriously.  12.73.198.38 17:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "Grow up, grow up, grow up.." Why 12.73.198.38, what maturity you show in arguement. -JCarriker 02:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Again Merge both categories into Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians These are user categories and both terms are controversial. Gen Y plays to the stereotype that this generation is nothing more than GenX II, and I find that offensive. Neither term is accepted and both are controversial. This has already been debated, and no concensus was reached. Frankly, I find the nomination of a user category for deletion needlessly confrontational. It also worth noting that there are more people in the millenial category than in Gen Y, in other words this merge proposal is backward in size and is mistaken in in the neutrality of the term Gen Y. -JCarriker 02:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * What a pile of pompous poop, Carriker [Note, altho JCarriker feels free to chide my comment, above, he is utterly censorious when it comes to my responding in kind. And he sic's someone named "France2000" on me with a threat of banishment if I don't quit twitting him for twitting me.  All of which goes to prove my original comment - as 12.73.198.38 - is quite apt.  Those who dish it out but cannot take it are full of it, and not to be taken seriously.  As for a site that supports them...  12.73.194.10 02:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Just for the record: no-one "sic"d me onto you, I noticed you editing other people's comments in this discussion and reverted what you did. I stand by the vandalism warning I gave you on your talk page, I notice you've now received another and I have no qualms about blocking you from editing this site if your behaviour deems it necessary. -- Francs2000 [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 02:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Then you will also have to banish Carriker, for vandalizing *my* post at the outset. Or are you too much of a Wikicliquer to dispense Wikijustice fairly?  (PS - you can threaten banishment all you want; since I'm not registered, you have no way to find me; and,  be careful, I might be Prince Charles in disguise).  Charlie Flagpole 14:32, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you point out the edit where JCarriker altered a comment to this discussion that you or anyone else had made? I have looked in the history and see no evidence of this. -- Francs2000 [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 15:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The reason why I prefer the term "Generation Y" is because it is clearer. If one reads "Millennial Wikipedian" without knowing what that means, they cannot understand the label until they read the description of the category. Instead someone reading "Generation Y Wikipedians" can immediately understand that it refers to the generation after Generation X, or at least that it refers to a generation. See also: . In addition, it is consistent with cat. Generation X Wikipedians whose title is Generation X Wikipedians and not 13th Generation Wikipedians. However, if the name "Millennial Generation" is agreed to be more suitable that "Generation Y", the title "Millennial Generation Wikipedians" will more intuitive than just "Millennial Wikipedians". --Army1987 16:26, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with changing the title to Millennial Generation Wikipedians if you insist on it. However that search provided is not particularly conclusive: Do a search for the proper plural nouns Gen Yers +generation and Millennials +generation . Then compare both searches to Baby Boomers +generation and Gen Xers +generation . Gen Yers does not stand up it alternative nor to the other generations. Millennial is not a perfect name, but it is given the fervor over the changing of the millennium that has and is still occurring during this generations birth and formative years its not a bad one. Gen Y  is comparable to 13th gen in that it has been rejected by most of the generation it has been used to identified. Further more numbers aren’t everything there are reasons why Roma people does not appear at Gypsy. My generation has fought long and hard to distance itself from the negative stereotypes that were forced on Gen X. The term Gen Y is offensive, and while most wikipedians of this generation are not in love with the term Millennials they have chosen it over Gen Y. Is it really so much to ask that when we identify ourselves through user categories, that we do so through a term of our own acceptance.  -JCarriker 21:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Why is it offensive?--Army1987 12:02, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have elaborated above on that, but in short it implies that the generation is a continuation of Gen X—which is wrong—and this assumption has lead to forcing the negative stereotypes about Gen X on this generation while ignoring the good traits of both generations. An anon (172.199.22.234)user, put it somewhat cruder on my talk page and several others he/she apparently used this cat to spam about the article title. -JCarriker 22:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge Category:Generation Y Wikipedians into Category:Millennial Wikipedians (the opposite of the original proposal). I don't like the idea of categorizing users in this manner, but the practice obviously is going to continue (and is largely harmless).  With this in mind, the more popular of the two designations should prevail (given the fact that they mean exactly the same thing).  It may be true that both terms are controversial, but maintaining redundant categories defeats the very purpose of their existence.  —Lifeisunfair 03:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC) Merge both categories into Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians (per Army1987's suggestion), thereby preserving the overwhelmingly preferred designation while clarifying its meaning.  —Lifeisunfair 21:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge them both into Category:Wikipedians born between 1977 and 1993 --Angr/undefined 07:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * As indicated in the Category:Millennial Wikipedians description, those years are "approximate." According to the Generation Y article, there is a considerable amount of debate regarding the precise cutoff points.  Therefore, this category is loosely defined, and is comprised of individuals whose arbitrary definitions enable self-inclusion.  It's of little encyclopedic value, but we can afford to impose lax restrictions upon user categories.  —Lifeisunfair 14:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, then merge them both into Category:Wikipedians born between about 1977 and 1993. If that generation can't agree on what to call itself, it's not Wikipedia's job to impose a name on them. --Angr/undefined 21:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Even "about 1977 and 1993" is far more specific than the range that is undisputed. Such a name would be significantly more arbitrary and less acceptable than the "imposition" of either of the two widely used slang designations in question (one of which — "millennial" — appears to have been accepted by the vast majority of Wikipedia users who have opted to categorize themselves as members of this generation).  —Lifeisunfair 21:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep both and don't merge-- Exir  Kamalabadi Esperanza  00:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you please elaborate? Why should we keep two 100% redundant categories (only one of which is popular)?
 * They're not actually 100% redundant. For one thing, as a 1979 birth I apparently qualify for the Millennial wikipedians club but not the Generation Y club. — brighterorange  (talk) 13:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The description from the Category:Generation Y Wikipedians page was written by a different person than that of the Category:Millennial Wikipedians page. The chronological disparity reflects a difference of opinion regarding the birth years encompassed by the generation, not a difference in meaning between the two terms in question.  (All of this is explained in the Generation Y article.)  —Lifeisunfair 17:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete them again. I knew they'd come back here even as I restored them from a pointless VfU debate. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Could you please provide a link to the VFU debate? The only time this category was deleted, to my recolectionwas when it was posted here for deletion and was deleted improperly as no CFD otice was place on its page. When that notice was posted, and the vote placed back here; consensus was nor reached. Surely you would not consider the restoration for continued debate of an improperly deleted category pointless? -JCarriker 21:22, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I removed the debate in this diff. I then asked the nominator what he wanted done. Repopulation? Renomination? He was wilfully obtuse and wouldn't answer me, other than to mumble about some love of process (which hinged basically on when a single edit was made). So I didn't do anything (and neither did he), and left a bunch of completely empty categories lying around. I commented at the time that they became speediable 24 hours after my restoration, but I didn't act on that observation. I made a little bet with myself over when they'd next be on CfD. It took longer than I thought. -Splash talk 16:18, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you providing the link, and I'm sorry you found the nominator unresponsive (you won't have that problem with me). However, the vote for undeletion in the link was over Wikipedians by Generation, not Millennial Wikipedians. Has Millennial Wikipedians itself ever been on VFU? When Millennial Wikipedians was no notice of its CFD nomination was provided before its deletion. Again I ask: In that particular instance how was it pointless to restor a catgegory that was improperly deleted? -JCarriker 22:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete both, as per CalJW's initial judgment. 12.73.194.179 02:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete both per CalJW. siafu 03:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Now I created Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians. As for me I'm in all three categories, and will remove myself from the ones which shall have been deleted. I'll write a message to all people in the two already-pop'd categories.--Army1987 14:37, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * So far, I've written messages to all those beginning with letter A or B. I am going to be quite busy this week, so please help me. Simply copy and paste the message fromUser:Army1987/MilGenWiki to the users' talk pages and sign it with four tildes. TIA. --Army1987 14:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I favor the use of Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians, but this debate's outcome is far from certain. It was imprudent to create yet another redundant category.  —Lifeisunfair 16:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

''' 02:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge them into Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians and redirect Category:Millennial_Wikipedians and Category:Generation_Y_Wikipedians to it. If those categories are vanity, so are all of those Category:Wikipedians --BrendanRyan 19:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete both as per CalJW. --Kbdank71 13:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge as per JCarriker. Cheers. R  e  dwolf24  (talk—How's my driving?) 23:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep ''' Molotov (talk) [[Image:Flag of California.svg|25px]]
 * Delete all per CalJW. Kirill Lokshin 12:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete all - these so called "generations" are culture/country specific and are not tightly defined/have standard definitions. Identify by decade. Less sloppy. --MacRusgail 19:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep all (why not?), with strongest preference for keeping Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * keep both (or weak delete both). If these can't be nailed down exactly, then the only real criterion is self-identification, in which case we already know that the two categories aren't redundant. If their redundancy makes you cringe, then perhaps delete both in favor of a decade-based system (although as a guy who was born in the last 4 months of 1979, I appreciate that some slop may be desirable). Otherwise, let people identify as they like. The whole point of these categories is to foster some kind of community among editors, not to establish some kind of encyclopedic knowledge. —  brighterorange  (talk) span53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, merge together, merge to decade category, whatever, but don't delete them all. I can see the problems with redundancy and imprecision here, but there should be some categorization system for Wikipedians by generation. N (t/c) 13:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep allwhile inserting cross-references from each cat to the others. Let Wikipedians identify themselves as they please. Why not? Septentrionalis 19:06, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Continent-related lists

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. Naming conventions candidate. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 06:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The preferred format for country categories in category:Lists by country is officially undecided, but in fact all 51 country categories in it are in the form "X-related lists". The only inconsistency is the existence of Category:Asia lists and Category:Africa lists, so I suggest that they should be renamed category:Africa-related lists and category:Asia-related lists (and possibly moved elsewhere). CalJW 23:59, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename and establish this as a speedy for consistency in Naming conventions (categories) per new speedy-rule #4. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Villages of the Czech Republic to Category:Villages in the Czech Republic

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was SPEEDY RENAME per speedy-rule #4. -Splash talk 16:21, 9 October 2005 (UTC) The "in" form is standard for settlements. Rename CalJW 23:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. -- Reinyday, 01:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename --Herzog 01:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy per new rule #4. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

====Category:UNV television network, Category:UNV network affiliates, and Category:UNV network shows to Category:Univisión television network Category:Univisión network affiliates, and Category:Univisión network shows====
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename all. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 06:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Propose the following renames as listed above or similar to, UNV is the three letter desingnator for the network, but when used in categorires is should be put out as Univisión. --Boothy443 | comhrá 23:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Wholeheartedly approve. Be WP:BOLD and do it. Blank Verse   ∅  11:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom, but note that even being bold the cats ought still to come here for their eventual deletion. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename all. No argument. siafu 03:43, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Liberal related stubs to Category:Liberalism stubs

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The result of the debate was Moved to WP:SFD. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 22:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the proposed name meets the naming guidelines better. Aecis 22:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This is handled on WP:SFD, has it been proposed there? ∞ Who ? ¿ ?  22:44, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:3-letter acronym disambiguations to Category:Three-letter acronym disambiguations

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 06:05, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Three should be written out, not a numeral, per stylistic conventions. jengod 20:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Neither of those categories exist. -- Reinyday, 01:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Each of the two category names contained an extraneous colon. I've corrected the problem.  —Lifeisunfair 02:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Rename, per jengod's reasoning. —Lifeisunfair 02:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename, ditto. GregorB 14:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. No argument. siafu 03:43, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Japanese prefectures to Category:Prefectures of Japan

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 06:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The "of" form is standard for subdivisions such as these. Rename CalJW 14:44, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename per nomination. Neier 01:48, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename per nom and as intimated but not explicity defined in Naming conventions (categories). -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. No argument. siafu 03:44, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Cities in Finland to Category:Cities and towns in Finland

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 06:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Finland is another country where there is no distinction between towns and cities. Indeed the lead article in this category is called List of towns in Finland (though come to think of it that should be changed to, so I'll do so in a minute). In this situation the standard practice is to rename category:Cities and towns in Finland. CalJW 14:27, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Millennial Wikipedians to Category:Generation Y Wikipedians (or vice-versa)
There's no need to have two such categories. Let's use only the one which is uncontroversial, there are no users who "do not accept to be described" as Generation Y AFAIK, and the title is also clearer. Army1987 14:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete both Imprecise and slangy. This whole scheme is a bad idea imo. But if we must have it, the categories should be named by decade, ie. Wiikipedians born in the 1980s etc. CalJW 14:19, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * DELETE BOTH. Same old stuff - vanity pages for a clique within a clique.  Juvenile, egotistical, unencyclopedic, worthless.  Grow up, grow up grow up, or you will continue to be not taken seriously.  12.73.198.38 17:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "Grow up, grow up, grow up.." Why 12.73.198.38, what maturity you show in arguement. -JCarriker 02:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Again Merge both categories into Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians These are user categories and both terms are controversial. Gen Y plays to the stereotype that this generation is nothing more than GenX II, and I find that offensive. Neither term is accepted and both are controversial. This has already been debated, and no concensus was reached. Frankly, I find the nomination of a user category for deletion needlessly confrontational. It also worth noting that there are more people in the millenial category than in Gen Y, in other words this merge proposal is backward in size and is mistaken in in the neutrality of the term Gen Y. -JCarriker 02:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * What a pile of pompous poop, Carriker [Note, altho JCarriker feels free to chide my comment, above, he is utterly censorious when it comes to my responding in kind. And he sic's someone named "France2000" on me with a threat of banishment if I don't quit twitting him for twitting me.  All of which goes to prove my original comment - as 12.73.198.38 - is quite apt.  Those who dish it out but cannot take it are full of it, and not to be taken seriously.  As for a site that supports them...  12.73.194.10 02:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Just for the record: no-one "sic"d me onto you, I noticed you editing other people's comments in this discussion and reverted what you did. I stand by the vandalism warning I gave you on your talk page, I notice you've now received another and I have no qualms about blocking you from editing this site if your behaviour deems it necessary. -- Francs2000 [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 02:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Then you will also have to banish Carriker, for vandalizing *my* post at the outset. Or are you too much of a Wikicliquer to dispense Wikijustice fairly?  (PS - you can threaten banishment all you want; since I'm not registered, you have no way to find me; and,  be careful, I might be Prince Charles in disguise).  Charlie Flagpole 14:32, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you point out the edit where JCarriker altered a comment to this discussion that you or anyone else had made? I have looked in the history and see no evidence of this. -- Francs2000 [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 15:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The reason why I prefer the term "Generation Y" is because it is clearer. If one reads "Millennial Wikipedian" without knowing what that means, they cannot understand the label until they read the description of the category. Instead someone reading "Generation Y Wikipedians" can immediately understand that it refers to the generation after Generation X, or at least that it refers to a generation. See also: . In addition, it is consistent with cat. Generation X Wikipedians whose title is Generation X Wikipedians and not 13th Generation Wikipedians. However, if the name "Millennial Generation" is agreed to be more suitable that "Generation Y", the title "Millennial Generation Wikipedians" will more intuitive than just "Millennial Wikipedians". --Army1987 16:26, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with changing the title to Millennial Generation Wikipedians if you insist on it. However that search provided is not particularly conclusive: Do a search for the proper plural nouns Gen Yers +generation and Millennials +generation . Then compare both searches to Baby Boomers +generation and Gen Xers +generation . Gen Yers does not stand up it alternative nor to the other generations. Millennial is not a perfect name, but it is given the fervor over the changing of the millennium that has and is still occurring during this generations birth and formative years its not a bad one. Gen Y  is comparable to 13th gen in that it has been rejected by most of the generation it has been used to identified. Further more numbers aren’t everything there are reasons why Roma people does not appear at Gypsy. My generation has fought long and hard to distance itself from the negative stereotypes that were forced on Gen X. The term Gen Y is offensive, and while most wikipedians of this generation are not in love with the term Millennials they have chosen it over Gen Y. Is it really so much to ask that when we identify ourselves through user categories, that we do so through a term of our own acceptance.  -JCarriker 21:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Why is it offensive?--Army1987 12:02, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have elaborated above on that, but in short it implies that the generation is a continuation of Gen X—which is wrong—and this assumption has lead to forcing the negative stereotypes about Gen X on this generation while ignoring the good traits of both generations. An anon (172.199.22.234)user, put it somewhat cruder on my talk page and several others he/she apparently used this cat to spam about the article title. -JCarriker 22:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge Category:Generation Y Wikipedians into Category:Millennial Wikipedians (the opposite of the original proposal). I don't like the idea of categorizing users in this manner, but the practice obviously is going to continue (and is largely harmless).  With this in mind, the more popular of the two designations should prevail (given the fact that they mean exactly the same thing).  It may be true that both terms are controversial, but maintaining redundant categories defeats the very purpose of their existence.  —Lifeisunfair 03:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC) Merge both categories into Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians (per Army1987's suggestion), thereby preserving the overwhelmingly preferred designation while clarifying its meaning.  —Lifeisunfair 21:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge them both into Category:Wikipedians born between 1977 and 1993 --Angr/undefined 07:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * As indicated in the Category:Millennial Wikipedians description, those years are "approximate." According to the Generation Y article, there is a considerable amount of debate regarding the precise cutoff points.  Therefore, this category is loosely defined, and is comprised of individuals whose arbitrary definitions enable self-inclusion.  It's of little encyclopedic value, but we can afford to impose lax restrictions upon user categories.  —Lifeisunfair 14:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, then merge them both into Category:Wikipedians born between about 1977 and 1993. If that generation can't agree on what to call itself, it's not Wikipedia's job to impose a name on them. --Angr/undefined 21:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Even "about 1977 and 1993" is far more specific than the range that is undisputed. Such a name would be significantly more arbitrary and less acceptable than the "imposition" of either of the two widely used slang designations in question (one of which — "millennial" — appears to have been accepted by the vast majority of Wikipedia users who have opted to categorize themselves as members of this generation).  —Lifeisunfair 21:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep both and don't merge-- Exir  Kamalabadi Esperanza  00:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you please elaborate? Why should we keep two 100% redundant categories (only one of which is popular)?

 * Delete them again. I knew they'd come back here even as I restored them from a pointless VfU debate. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Could you please provide a link to the VFU debate? The only time this category was deleted, to my recolectionwas when it was posted here for deletion and was deleted improperly as no CFD otice was place on its page. When that notice was posted, and the vote placed back here; consensus was nor reached. Surely you would not consider the restoration for continued debate of an improperly deleted category pointless? -JCarriker 21:22, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I removed the debate in this diff. I then asked the nominator what he wanted done. Repopulation? Renomination? He was wilfully obtuse and wouldn't answer me, other than to mumble about some love of process (which hinged basically on when a single edit was made). So I didn't do anything (and neither did he), and left a bunch of completely empty categories lying around. I commented at the time that they became speediable 24 hours after my restoration, but I didn't act on that observation. I made a little bet with myself over when they'd next be on CfD. It took longer than I thought. -Splash talk 16:18, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you providing the link, and I'm sorry you found the nominator unresponsive (you won't have that problem with me). However, the vote for undeletion in the link was over Wikipedians by Generation, not Millennial Wikipedians. Has Millennial Wikipedians itself ever been on VFU? When Millennial Wikipedians was no notice of its CFD nomination was provided before its deletion. Again I ask: In that particular instance how was it pointless to restor a catgegory that was improperly deleted? -JCarriker 22:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete both, as per CalJW's initial judgment. 12.73.194.179 02:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete both per CalJW. siafu 03:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Now I created Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians. As for me I'm in all three categories, and will remove myself from the ones which shall have been deleted. I'll write a message to all people in the two already-pop'd categories.--Army1987 14:37, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * So far, I've written messages to all those beginning with letter A or B. I am going to be quite busy this week, so please help me. Simply copy and paste the message fromUser:Army1987/MilGenWiki to the users' talk pages and sign it with four tildes. TIA. --Army1987 14:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I favor the use of Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians, but this debate's outcome is far from certain. It was imprudent to create yet another redundant category.  —Lifeisunfair 16:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Merge them into Category:Millennial Generation Wikipedians and redirect Category:Millennial_Wikipedians and Category:Generation_Y_Wikipedians to it. If those categories are vanity, so are all of those Category:Wikipedians --BrendanRyan 19:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Category:Alt country to Category:Country music

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The result of the debate was Rename to Category:Alternative country. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Category:Alt country is misnamed (see its talk page), but more importantly, it is not defined, and probably is not notable enough to deserve a separate category. As of today it has only one stub article about a band. Merge into Category:Country music. Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I personally think this genre is notable enough to deserve a separate category, provided alt.country is well-defined. The category does need to be renamed though, to Category:Alt.Country. This should be a daughter of Category:Alternative music or Category:Rock music and Category:Country music. Aecis 14:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. The article Alternative country lists at least 50 artists or groups with existing Wikipedia articles - I think that constitutes enough for a separate category. Various other versions of the term including Alt.country, Alt-country and Alt country all redirect to Alternative country. Logically the category should share the name of the defining article, so rename to Category:Alternative country. There is already a (miscapitalised) Category:Alternative Country but this has been unhelpfully re-directed to Category:Country music. (BTW, contrary to the proposer's comment, the cat has no talk page). Valiantis 23:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Rename per Valiantis. If there are in fact enough articles, then this mess should be cleaned up instead of just axed. siafu 03:47, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename and reparent per Valiantis. --Kgf0 23:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Kazakh politicians to Category:Kazakhstani politicians

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

"Kazakh" is an ethnic group, "Kazakhstani" is a nationality. See recent move of Category:Kazakh people to Category:Kazakhstani people. This one is much more appropriate, since these are public figures in the politics of Kazakhstan. The fact that they are ethnically Kazakhs is irrelevant. Staecker 13:19, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy Rename. - Darwinek 20:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. Nom is correct; ethnicity is irrelevant in this case. siafu 03:48, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Football (soccer) player stubs to Category:Football (soccer) biography stubs

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The result of the debate was Moved to WP:SFD. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 04:39, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

This category contains more biographies than just player biographies. As the category itself says, "while the category was originally envisioned only for players, non-playing personnel (managers, coaches, chairmen, executives) can also be included in this category, as long as they are directly connected to the sport." I think a rename is needed to better fit the articles in this category.. Aecis 11:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Renaming for stub categories must be directed to Stub types for deletion. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Serbian and Croatian Americans

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The result of the debate was Delete and split. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The Serbs and the Croats are two different communities, at home and abroad. Let me repeat that in American English words: there are "Serbian-Americans", and then there are "Croatian-Americans". There are two groups, not one. They can be clearly distinguished between one another, both by members of the groups and by outsiders.

No, you can't just recognize them as two different peoples out of a crowd. But that is not a criterion for national categorization, for crying out loud.

Sure, they are similar. But don't we lump together Czech and Slovak Americans, and we don't lump together Finnish and Estonian Americans, and we don't lump together Norwegian and Danish Americans. It's simply not done.

I'll probably split up the category myself, but I needed to say this so that it's spelled out for the future. --Joy [shallot]   10:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Cf. Category:Serbian diaspora and Category:Croatian diaspora. --Joy [shallot]

 * In principle, it's probably a good idea. But there may be difficulty in deciding, since probably a lot of the people in this category were originally from the unified 1918-1992 Yugoslavia, and then you have to go digging through their individual histories to discover if that meant Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegonia, Serbia, Montenegro, or Macedonia. (In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there were people in this category who were neither Serbian- nor Croatian-Americans, but rather Slovenian-, Bosniak-, Montenegrin-, or Macedonian-Americans.) --Angr/undefined 07:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Gosh, that's even worse, and even more reason to destroy such a horribly misnamed category. --Joy [shallot]

 * Concur - split/unmunge and create as many foo-American categories as needed. 12.73.201.111 02:26, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Divide per nom. This probably arose from the continued (mis?)use of "Serbo-Croatian" as a single language. siafu 03:50, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Articles which lack sources to Category:Articles that lack sources

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The result of the debate was Rename Category:Articles lacking sources. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

This is a simple grammatical correction (changing "which" to "that"). Improper grammar isn't a criterion for speedy renaming (though it should be, in my opinion), so I'm listing the category here. —Lifeisunfair 09:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. -- Reinyday, 11:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. However, you could shorten the category name and even avoid the grammar problem by renaming it to "Category:Articles lacking sources"... Lupo 11:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * What about "Category:Unsourced articles"? Or is that too short? Aecis 12:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Rename I second Lupo's idea of Articles lacking sources, otherwise that is correct — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jengod (talk • contribs) 20:31, 5 October 2005
 * Keep. Insisting on "that" in restrictive relative clauses is pedantic. There's nothing grammatically wrong with the category name the way it is. --Angr/undefined 07:49, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Would Category:Articles which ain't got no sources also be acceptable to you? Where do you draw the line?  —Lifeisunfair 14:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * If you're going to get your grammar wrong, please do so properly: Category:Ar?icles wivaat sources. -Splash talk 15:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Nonononononono, there's nothing quite like Category:4rt1c13$ \/\/1th0ut $0urc3$. Aecis 22:09, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Rename to Category:4rt1c13$ \/\/1th0ut $0urc3$ per Aecis. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. I know that's not being debated here, but most of the time I see articles with this tag it's because someone is being nitpicky and/or trying to harrass the author(s) of an article or push their POV (when you don't like what "they" are saying but can't articulate a good argument, demand they produce documentation for every single sentence & claim it's for the good of Wikipedia).  Most of the articles at Wikipedia lack sources so the usage is entirely arbitrary.  Take a look at Jake Epstein, for example. Why is this article worthy of being tagged as opposed to any other one out there? BrainyBroad 04:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename to "Category:Articles lacking sources" as per Lupo. - TexasAndroid 12:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:London history to Category:History of London
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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Non-standard category. Amend to the same form as the other categories in category:History by city ie. category:History of London. CalJW 09:22, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. -- Reinyday, 11:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename and add this to the speedy list in Naming Conventions since countries are already defined that way. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think we should apply the same rules to sub-national entities, but if you want to do that it is a big step. We would need to rename the page. It would effect a huge number of categories, especially American categories, and based on my nomination of the American state politics categories there might be considerable opposition. CalJW 06:08, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename. I have no objection to labelling this a speedy for cities as well as nations. siafu 04:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:South Korean companies to Category:Companies of South Korea
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The result of the debate was Merge. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Swap these two. The one that is the redirect (Companies of South Korea) is named according to the convention at Naming conventions (categories), the populated one (the other one) is not. -- Rick Block (talk) 02:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Use standard category CalJW 09:02, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge to standard Category:Companies of South Korea and delete the other one. -- Reinyday, 11:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy per new speedy-rule #4. -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Botanical gardens by country
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The result of the debate was Delete. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Redundant: Category:Gardens is good enough. I created it, then decided it isn't necessary. Cleduc 02:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete CalJW 09:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete at the request of the creator. -- Reinyday, 11:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Botanical gardens in the United States
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The result of the debate was Delete. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Redundant: Category:Gardens in the United States is good enough. I created it, then decided it isn't necessary. Cleduc 02:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete All the state categories should be renamed too so no gardens have to be left out. CalJW 09:02, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Speedy delete at the request of the creator. -- Reinyday, 11:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

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U.S. case law categories --> United States case law categories
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The result of the debate was Rename all. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Per the CfD in the reverse order below, let's unabbreviate them all. -- BD2412 talk 01:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Category:U.S. Supreme Court cases --> Category:United States Supreme Court cases
 * Category:U.S. constitutional case law --> Category:United States constitutional case law
 * Category:U.S. state case law --> Category:United States state case law
 * Category:U.S. abortion rights case law --> Category:United States abortion rights case law
 * Category:U.S. affirmative action case law --> Category:United States affirmative action case law
 * Category:U.S. antitrust case law --> Category:United States antitrust case law
 * Category:U.S. church-state separation case law --> Category:United States church-state separation case law
 * Category:U.S. civil rights case law --> Category:United States civil rights case law
 * Category:U.S. communications regulation case law --> Category:United States communications regulation case law
 * Category:U.S. copyright case law --> Category:United States copyright case law
 * Category:U.S. corporation case law --> Category:United States corporation case law
 * Category:U.S. death penalty case law --> Category:United States death penalty case law
 * Category:U.S. education case law --> Category:United States education case law
 * Category:U.S. electoral redistricting case law --> Category:United States electoral redistricting case law
 * Category:U.S. federalism case law --> Category:United States federalism case law
 * Category:U.S. gay rights cases --> Category:United States gay rights cases
 * Category:U.S. internet case law --> Category:United States internet case law
 * Category:U.S. Native American case law --> Category:United States Native American case law
 * Category:U.S. patent case law --> Category:United States patent case law
 * Category:U.S. rights of the accused case law --> Category:United States rights of the accused case law
 * Category:U.S. separation of powers case law --> Category:United States separation of powers case law
 * Category:U.S. free speech case law --> Category:United States free speech case law
 * Category:U.S. Appellate Court cases --> Category:United States Court of Appeals cases
 * Rename all CalJW 09:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename all Ryan Norton T 09:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Normally I'm against listing multiple categories on here under one entry, but this time, renaming them all is fine with me. -Seth Mahoney 16:30, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename all per nom. Away with abbreviations such as these! -Splash talk 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename all --Markles Adler 00:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Rename all Bhoeble 13:02, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Hot Women
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The result of the debate was Delete. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 05:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

This category picks up NPOV and throws it out of the window head first. Who decides who's hot and who's not? Can I add Ann Widdecombe? Francs2000 00:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * rename as Just delete the thing. Grutness...  wha?  00:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Modify to Category:Hot Wikipediennes. 12.73.198.161 01:12, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's so hot, it should burn in flames all on it's own, no sense not helping it out a little. ∞ Who ? ¿ ?  01:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete POV Ryan Norton T 09:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as somewhat patent nonsense. And no, you may not add Ann Widdecombe ;) Aecis 12:14, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Populate per external third-party source hotornot.com. ;) -Splash talk 15:08, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

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text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 October 5

Guide to deletion


text:
Talk:WPSD-TV

Untitled
Before a merge and later a deletion for a page move, this page said the following in a contribution at 05:34, 4 August 2005 by User:24.113.115.35

WPSD, also known by its slogan Newschannel 6, is a NBC affiliate based in Paducah, Kentucky. They are owned by Paxton Media, a locally based family-run publishing comany that also owns the city's daily newspaper The Paducah Sun. WPSD debuted on the air on May 28, 1957.

The station is part of the Paducah-Cape Girardeau-Harrisburg TV market and covers western Kentucky, southern Illinois, southeastern Missouri and northwestern Tennessee.

title: Talk:WPSD-TV


text:
JCL

JCL may refer to:

Business

 * Juniperus Capital Limited, a Bermuda-based hedge fund

Computing

 * Job Control Language, a scripting language used on IBM mainframe operating systems
 * Java Class Library
 * Jakarta Commons Logging, a logging utility

Periodicals

 * University of Pennsylvania Journal of Constitutional Law
 * Journal of Commonwealth Literature
 * Journal of Corporation Law
 * Journal of Chinese Linguistics
 * Journal of Cosmetic & Laser Therapy

Junior Classical League

 * The National Junior Classical League (NJCL) or any of its state-level affiliates
 * JCL holds many conventions per year, including art, academic tests, and a game called Certamen

Transportation

 * České Budějovice Airport, České Budějovice, Czechia, IATA code

Academic

 * J.C.L., degree of Licentiate of Canon Law

An oil-producing plant

 * Jatropha curcas (abbreviation of Jatropha curcas Linnaeus)

title: JCL


text:
Canadair CL-89

The Canadair CL-89 is a surveillance drone (UAV) produced jointly by Canada, Britain and West Germany in the 1960s. A larger and improved model with a greater payload, the CL-289, was later introduced.

CL-89

In June 1963, a sponsorship by Canada and Britain agreed to have Canadair design, evaluate and test the CL-89 drone. The concept had been developed at Canadair from the CL-85, a study for the carriage of dispatches. West Germany later joined the group, and although the United States was invited to join, they declined.

The first, less than successful flight was made at Yuma, Arizona in March 1964. The British wanted changes in the system (consisting of the drone, the launcher, the retrieval equipment and the support) to be "Soldier Proof". They sent an army officer to Canadair and with his help set up a maintenance advisory group which had excellent results. CL-89 had a difficult development and was almost abandoned.

The first complete CL-89 system was supplied to the West Germans in 1969. During the 1970s, Both France and Italy joined the British and West Germans in operating the CL-89. NATO gave the entire system the designation AN/USD-501 (Army Navy Unmanned Surveillance Drone type 501); in UK service it was known as the Midge (Military Intelligence & Data Gathering Equipment). The system was designed for information collecting at a divisional level.

In Royal Artillery service Midge was operated by a troop in a divisional locating battery. This troop had two launchers, all the facilities for processing and analysing imagery and for repair and servicing of the aircraft. The troop comprised two officers and about 70 soldiers. Tasking was through the artillery intelligence cell at divisional HQ and the primary use was to confirm suspected enemy locations, particularly hostile artillery. In UK service Midge replaced the Northrop Radioplane SD-1, known in service as "Observer",  and was replaced in turn by Phoenix. Midge was used operationally in Kuwait in 1991, with some effect especially when combined with artillery raids.

In German Army service, CL-89 was operated by a battery in the divisional observation battalion. The organisation was similar to the British but had six officers and about 120 soldiers.

Logistic support for CL-89 was provided to user nations through NAMSA.

CL-289
In November 1987, an agreement was signed between Canada, West Germany and France for the production of the CL-289 system. The design of this was started in 1974. It was a larger drone with better range and payload than the CL-89. It was intended to obtain corps level intelligence for the armies of NATO. Although similar in appearance to the CL-89, many changes in design were necessary. The CL-289 entered service in November 1990, the entire system being designated AN/USD-502. At least 9 CL-289 were shot down by the Yugoslavian National Army during the NATO intervention against the Kosovo Genocide in 1999.

Description
The cylindrical body had four stub-wings at the rear of the fuselage, with aerodynamic trim provided by smaller canard foreplanes.

Although the drone looked and flew like a missile and was launched from truck-mounted rails, it cruised under jet power. Takeoff was achieved by a booster rocket, which was jettisoned when flight speed was attained. A small turbojet then took over for the rest of the flight

The flight pattern was programmed and allowed for the flight to the target areas, a run while the cameras or sensors recorded, and the return to the recovery site. On arrival at this calculated position, the motor cut and a drogue parachute was deployed. This slowed the drone down sufficiently to alter its attitude and allow a parachute to be released from the underside of the drone causing it to invert. Before reaching the ground a pair of pneumatic landing bags were released from the top of the drone (now facing the ground). The retrieval crew would then remove the cameras etc., and return the drone to be ready for its next flight. A camera or sensor, dependent on the mission, could be fitted to the CL-89, and multiple units to the CL-289.

Being a drone meant that it flew a programmed course and was not under any form of external control. In the CL-89 the programmed flight path was constrained by the very limited number of 'events' that could be programmed. These events including turns, changes in altitude, sensor activations/de-activations and landing. The programmed flightpath had to be corrected for meteorological conditions. Data for this was provided by a standard artillery Target Acquisition meteor message.

Two types of sensors were used with the CL-89, both using photographic film that was processed and analysed after the drone was recovered. Standard black and white film was normally used in daylight, with flares available for night use. Infrared linescan, an early form of thermal imaging was generally used at night. Three types of sensors were used with the British Drone Troops, Vinten (day sensor), Zeiss (day and night) and IRLS (day and night).

Operators

 * German Army (replaced by Rheinmetall KZO)
 * Turkish Army
 * British Army
 * German Army (replaced by Rheinmetall KZO)
 * Turkish Army
 * British Army
 * Turkish Army
 * British Army
 * British Army

title: Canadair CL-89