text:
Talk:MAN SE

History
This article should include a history section.

Agreed. There's a large gap of its history during world war two for example. The Panther medium tank was an important and famous tank during the war and yet no reference to this? I believe this article needs to include a lot more of the company's history. 203.118.180.219 (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Elysium203.118.180.219 (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Everyone was on vacation! Kar98 (talk) 02:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the company's anniversary film, MAN is a merged company between Maschinenfabrik Augsburg and Nurnburg. So,Rudolph Diesel is not it's founder202.93.37.90 (talk) 06:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The company
Most of this article had been set up to focus on the bus division. The bus division accounts for about 7% of total sales. This company is so much more than a "bus" maker. It get slightly over 30% of sales from the TRUCK division, the biggest single revenue driver of the company (no pun intended).

2004 revenue breakdown:
 * 7,409 49.6% MAN Nutzfahrzeuge AG
 * 3,185 21.3 MAN Ferrostaal AG
 * 1,620 10.8 MAN Roland Druckmaschinen AG
 * 1,421 9.5 MAN B&W Diesel AG
 * --659 4.4 MAN TURBO AG
 * __________
 * percent 95.6 Total Divisions
 * Misc:   4.4 (including financial transactions)
 * €14,947 Total

Please help to add more about the other division, not just the bus division. WikiDon 08:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

SAF Singapore Armed Forces is using Man AG tonners
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/armynews/display1.asp?ArticleId=168 http://www.mindef.gov.sg/cyberpioneer/backissues_may03_2.htm

Fair use rationale for Image:MAN logo290306.jpg
Image:MAN logo290306.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 05:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

WWII
Seems quite strange to omit any mention of the fact that hundreds of WWII German U-boats were powered by MAN diesels. Sca (talk) 19:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

MAN SE vs. MAN Group
"MAN Group" is not an exact synonym for MAN SE (previously MAN AG): to quote page 73 of the 2008 MAN AG Annual Report: The MAN Group is headed by MAN Aktiengesellschaft, which is the Group’s Corporate Center. Therefore I think the description "parent company of the MAN Group" is an accurate one for MAN SE. Letdorf (talk) 13:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC).

Article layout
This article has a strange layout with a huge blank space and what in effect is a gallery above the main body of the article. Is this some new style to wikipedia articles ?

Looking at the German one in comparison to this it is sadly lacking something. (unfortunately i cannot read german so cannot see what is missing). All the bus bit seems out of place /unbalanced and would have thought that would in the subsidary article MAN AG Buses with some summary history in MAN SE and more in the Bus article. Other subsidaries such as the Wolffkran are missing (seen in most major cities) but there is a German article Here. For a major European company with a long history this is one of the most disappointing wikipedia articles I have seen.

BTW: The Bus article Hybrid section was all copy vio, from the man hybrid web site page.

- BulldozerD11 (talk) 03:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I've moved the "gallery" images into an actual gallery under the Subsidiaries section, for want of a better place. Feel free to expand the parts you feel are lacking. You could always run the German WP page through Google Translate or similar to get some idea of its content. Letdorf (talk) 13:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC).

 * Hi Letdorf, layout looks better now. Thanks for suggestion on translation, I have used it before but its still very hard to make sense of and copy and paste gets garbled results that tak so much cleaning up. Have discovered that Wolffkran were actually sold to a mbo/venture capital group in 2005. And other non core business were disposed of. It was too late to look at fixing articles after the side trip to the bus article. At least i found the company (Wolff) web site.

 * This is just one of thousands of articles I could fix if i had the time (was rather late when i found it) so better to flag up as walk on by and never find my way back. - BulldozerD11 (talk) 20:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned references in MAN SE
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of MAN SE's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "AR2013": From Celesio:  From Axel Springer AG:  From Fielmann:  From Aareal Bank:

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 06:56, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

M-A-N North Carolina?
The Freightliner article, which links to here, mentions taking over a M-A-N plant in Cleveland, NC, in 1989. Yet there is no mention of US manufacturing anywhere in this article. 50.0.36.187 (talk) 17:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

List(s) of products?
Are there any sources that would allow collating a list of MAN'a key products? E.g.: list of trucks manufactured / designed by MAN. Regards, DPdH (talk) 14:45, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

German or European?
It think it should be "MAN SE ... is a European mechanical engineering company" instead of "MAN SE ... is a German mechanical engineering company". What do you know or think? --NearEMPTiness (talk) 19:48, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Dead link
Link 21 goes to a 404 page: "GIR Search - GIR - Global Investigations Review". globalinvestigationsreview.com. Retrieved 15 July 2020. 216.243.58.119 (talk) 22:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:MAN SE


text:
Churchill County High School

Churchill County High School is located in Fallon, Churchill County, Nevada. The building was built in 1917, and was opened in 1920.

Academics
Part of the Churchill County School District, operating under the Principal Kevin Lords, the school has around 1400 students in grades 9–12.

Education standards are very high, with Churchill County's Academic Team being placed 1st in the Nevada Academic League in results published in April 2006, and a teacher at the School, Steve Johnson, being a winner of the Presidential Awards for Excellence in Mathematics and Science Teaching, the Nation's highest honors for teachers of mathematics and science, in 1999.

Notable alumni

 * Alan Bible, lawyer and politician, served as a United States Senator from Nevada from 1954 to 1974.
 * Harvey Dahl, football offensive guard for the St. Louis Rams - Jersey #59 retired in January 2009.
 * Josh Mauga, football player for the Kansas City Chiefs - Jersey Number 30 retired on October 27, 2011
 * Aarik Wilson, long jumper and triple jumper; athlete in the 2008 Summer Olympics

Churchill County High School has a long history of students serving in the uniform services as well as being accepted into prominent academic institutions.

Discipline
In November 2006 closed circuit television was installed, the first school in the state to have such a comprehensive system, and has proven effective in enhancing discipline.

This was needed since according to a regional survey, almost 7% of Churchill County students have used methamphetamine, and anecdotal data points to a number closer to 15%.

Pellet gun incident
On January 22, 2020, a male student brought a pneumatic pellet gun into his classroom. He did not harm any students. He was later arrested the next day for possession of a weapon on school grounds.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Churchill County High School


text:
Percy Miller

Percy Miller may refer to:

 * Master P (Percy Robert Miller, born 1970), American rapper, actor and businessman
 * Romeo Miller (Percy Romeo Miller, born 1989), American rapper, actor and television personality
 * Percy Miller (pitcher) (1897–1958), American Negro leagues baseball player
 * Percy A. Miller Jr. (1899–1984), Speaker of the New Jersey General Assembly
 * Percy Miller, Jr. (1931–2003), American minor league baseball player

title: Percy Miller


text:
Hubert Lawrence Anthony

Hubert Lawrence "Larry" Anthony (12 March 1897 – 12 July 1957) was an Australian politician. He was a member of the Country Party and held ministerial office in the governments of Arthur Fadden and Robert Menzies, serving as Minister for Transport (1941), Postmaster-General (1949–1956), and Minister for Civil Aviation (1951–1954). A soldier and banana-grower before entering politics, he represented the New South Wales seat of Richmond from 1937 to 1957, which was later held by his son Doug Anthony and grandson Larry Anthony.

Early life
Anthony was born in Warren, New South Wales, and had a limited education in bush schools. In 1914 he joined the Australian Army and spent World War I in the Signals Corps, seeing active duty in Gallipoli. He was discharged in 1916 following his return to Australia, where he was initially admitted to the first Auxiliary Hospital suffering from throat disease. After the war he settled at Murwillumbah on the NSW north coast, where he took up banana farming. By the 1930s he was the biggest banana-grower in Australia and chairman of the Banana Growers Federation. This made him an influential figure in the politics of the Northern Rivers region.

Politics
In 1937 Anthony was elected to the House of Representatives as Country Party member for the seat of Richmond. As a powerful figure in the party he had rapid promotion. He was an Honorary Minister 1940–1941, and Minister for Transport in 1941. During the years of the wartime Australian Labor Party government (1941–1949), he was a senior member of the Opposition.

In 1949 the conservatives returned to power under Robert Menzies, and Anthony became Postmaster-General, adding the post of Minister for Civil Aviation in 1951. He held these posts until his sudden death at Murwillumbah in 1957. He was succeeded as Member for Richmond by his son Doug Anthony, then aged 27. Doug Anthony was later leader of the Country Party and Deputy Prime Minister of Australia 1971–1972 and 1975–1983. Doug's son Larry Anthony was Member for Richmond 1996–2004 and was a junior minister in the Howard government.

title: Hubert Lawrence Anthony


text:
Anne Haney

Anne Ryan Haney ( Thomas; March 4, 1934 – May 26, 2001) was an American stage and screen character actress. She appeared in small supporting roles in around 50 film and television productions and was best known for her roles as Mrs. Sellner in Mrs. Doubtfire, Mrs. Chapil in The American President and Greta in Liar Liar.

Early years
Haney was born to Robert Lee Thomas in Memphis, Tennessee. She attended East High School and Southwestern at Memphis before earning her Bachelor of Arts from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Career
Haney began acting in 1970, appearing in commercials and in local theatrical productions in Atlanta, Jacksonville, and Norfolk, Virginia.

Haney appeared in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Survivors" as Rishon Uxbridge, and later appeared as a Bajoran arbitrator in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Dax". She was a regular guest-star during the syndicated run of Mama's Family, playing Alberta Meechum, the nemesis of Thelma Harper. On Our House she played fussy neighbour Virginia Taft. She was also a recurring cast member of L.A. Law, playing Judge Marilyn Travelini. Haney guest starred on Benson, Cheers, Designing Women, The Golden Girls, Charmed, Boy Meets World, Columbo, ER, NYPD Blue, Curb Your Enthusiasm and Ally McBeal. She also appeared in the television movies LBJ: The Early Years (1987) and Elvis and Me (1988).

Haney also became known for a number of film appearances. In 1993, she was cast as Mrs. Sellner, a family court supervisor in Mrs. Doubtfire. In 1995, she appeared as Mrs. Chapil in The American President. In 1997, she played Greta in Liar Liar. In 1999, she appeared in Forces of Nature and The Out-of-Towners.

Personal life
She was married to John Haney, a public television executive whom she met at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she had been studying drama, radio, and television. They were married from November 30, 1957, until his death on April 9, 1980; the marriage produced one daughter. As for her reason for coming to Hollywood, she said "My husband died, my daughter went to college, the dog got fleas, and the maid quit. So I had to come to Hollywood.”

Death
Haney died of congestive heart failure, aged 67, at her home in Studio City, Los Angeles, California on May 26, 2001.

Selected filmography

 * Summer of My German Soldier (1978) – Mrs. Benn
 * Hopscotch (1980) – Mrs. Myerson
 * The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia (1981) – Waitress
 * The Children Nobody Wanted (1981, made-for-television) – Mrs. Lightheart
 * Making Love (1982) – Lila
 * Some Kind of Hero (1982) – Monica Lewis
 * Frances (1982) – Hairdresser
 * Cheers (1982) – Miss Gilder
 * The Osterman Weekend (1983) – Honeymoon Bride
 * Benson (1984) – Nun
 * Impulse (1984) – Mrs. Piersall
 * The Night They Saved Christmas (1984) – Hedda
 * St. Elsewhere (1984) – Mrs. Clifford
 * The Bad Seed (1985) – Alice Fern
 * Lime Street (1985) – Evelyn Camp
 * Malice in Wonderland (1985) – Dema's Secretary
 * Mr. Belvedere (1985, Episode "Sweet Charity") – Molly
 * The Best of Times (1986) – Marcy
 * The Golden Girls (1986) – Bonnie
 * Blind Justice (1986) – Jim's mother
 * The Twilight Zone (1986, Episode "The Toys of Caliban") – Mary Ross
 * Mama's Family (1986–1989) – Alberta Meechum
 * LBJ: The Early Years (1987) – Rebekah Baines Johnson
 * Cold Steel (1987) – Anna Modine
 * Our House (1988) – Virginia Taft
 * Elvis and Me (1988) – Grandma Minnie Mae Presley
 * Beauty and the Beast Episode "Dead of Winter" (1988) - Tamara
 * Star Trek: The Next Generation (1989) – Rishon Uxbridge
 * Quantum Leap  (1991, Episode "A Single Drop of Rain") – Grace Beaumont
 * LA Law (1992) – Judge Marilyn Travelini
 * Northern Exposure (1992) – Judge Elizabeth Percy
 * The Golden Palace (1992) – Vivian
 * Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (1993) – Renora
 * Mrs. Doubtfire (1993) – Mrs. Sellner
 * ER (1994) - Mrs Packer
 * The American President (1995) – Mrs. Chapil
 * Mother (1996) – Helen
 * NYPD Blue (1996, Episode "Head Case") – Mrs. Reese
 * Liar Liar (1997) – Greta
 * Changing Habits (1997) – Sister Humiliata
 * Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil (1997) – Margaret Williams
 * The Lesser Evil (1998) – Derek's Mother
 * Psycho (1998) – Mrs. Chambers
 * Forces of Nature (1999) – Emma
 * The Out-of-Towners (1999) – Woman in Bathroom
 * Charmed (2000, Episode "How to Make a Quilt Out of Americans") – Aunt Gail
 * Curb Your Enthusiasm (2000, Episode "Ted and Mary") – Mary's Mother (final appearance)

title: Anne Haney


text: Category:Politics of Cuba

title: Category:Politics of Cuba


text:
Talk:Public choice

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2019 and 24 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jw2379.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Errors
Public choice theory is certainly not the same thing same as rational choice theory. At most it can be said to be the application of rational choice theory to a certain area but even that is doubtful.

It is also not the same thing as social choice theory. Social choice theory studies purerly formal properties of voting systems while public choice studies the entire political process.

217.210.6.116 13:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The article seems to be biased, a blogpost on productivityshock says "I think the Wikipedia entry on public choice theory is rather heavily weighted toward criticism of the theory.

Then again, it could be that all of its critics truly are "noted" and "eminent" scholars, and that among intellectuals in all fields besides economics, public choice really is viewed "silly" and "absurd".

Mhm."

posted 2005.10.05 Wednesday

http://www.productivityshock.com/opportunity_to_selfpublish.htm

maybe. It should also mention that it is a "sub-field" of rational choice theory. (see page 66 of [i]Theory and Methods in Political Science[/i] 2nd edition edited by David Marsh and Gerry Stoker.) (unsigned comment)

As the P-Shock blogger in question above, I'd like to mention that I think the article has been vastly improved in the 18 months since. I don't think the "confusing" tag is merited, as many other Wikipedia articles are far more confusing. I did not put the tag up, but I am removing it. Jjb 22:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The line about how Public Choice was almost abandoned by the 1980's is absurd. Buchanan won the Nobel for public choice in 1986. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.89.201.2 (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Could someone find a quote that directly relates a critique of rational choice to public choice? As it stands, the rational choice critique is original research. 184.66.136.147 (talk) 20:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute - Criticism
The criticism section makes overly broad statements outside of direct quotations. Statements such as "a silly attempt to extend absurd theories of economics" are clearly biased when presented without qualification or attribution.

This section also suggests the disciplines such as sociology have unanimously dismissed public choice without internal dispute or discussion.

Direct quotations or examples from critics should re-enforce the general statements given. --Trevor 19:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

And so why is it that herein public choice theorists have their Nobel prizes called “Bank of Sweden” prizes, and their critics have their Bank of Sweden prizes called “Nobel” prizes? I swear that Wikipedia is a rolling disaster when it comes to the social sciences, because so many participants have so little regard for protocols attempting to get at a best approximation of the truth. This d_mn'd thing is an ugly exercise in spin. --Gamahucheur 06:25, 15 Feb 2006 (PST)

A change was made by an anonymous user to use the "Bank of Sweden" term to refer to Sen as well but was quickly reverted. I have changed it back to be consistent with the immediately previous line that uses the more correct "Bank of Sweden" name for the prize. The quote from McQuaig still refers to the "Nobel Prize" which is appropriate for a direct quote. --Trevor 19:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Rehaul the whole thing
This article is an adomination. Regardless of your feelings about Public Choice theory, it is easy to see that this article is horribly biased. I agree with above commentator - there seems to be an inability to follow wikipedia protocol of objectivity when reporting on social sciences, or anything of the slightest controversy. Why do people not understand that wikipedia is not a platform to voice an opinion about something one way or another?

I think part of the problem is that, when it comes to these kind of issues, people are so seeped in their own biases that they really don't even see the distinction between fact and opinion. They believe so strongly in their opinion, that they take it to be an established consensus.

Public Choice theory certainly lies somewhat outside of mainstream economics. However, it does have contributions and concepts that are considered valid. The question of its legitimacy is not one of complete rejection, but rather to what degree its theories can be taken. Public choice has its Nobel (bank of sweden, doesn't matter, its all the same for economics, which is what we are discussing) prize winners, and it is not the fringe theory this article seems to present it as. Public choice is NOT the phrenology of economics.

Having a criticism section that is longer than the information section is just too absurd to defend. This entire thing reads like a sloppy write up by someone who is attempting to bring it up for the purpose of casually dismissing it.

Maybe a good model to base this article on would be the Austrian School of Economics. This is another similiar school that lies outside the mainsteam, while still having contributed valuable concepts to economic thought. Its article is written well, without being gushy, and puts it in the proper context, while devoting the majority of the article to doing what an encyclopedia is supposed to do - explaining the topic! The purpose is to give information about the topic in question.

This is a horrid article. If nobody objects, I say we start rewriting it from scratch, starting with an outline.

208.252.21.146 15:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually except for the criticism section the article's not too bad though it could use some more details so I don't know if starting from scratch is necessary.radek 23:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the need for a comprehensive overhaul. I can't say that I see the information section as particularly good. For example, it doesn't actually mention Arrow's impossibility theorem (mention only occurred when I injected it into the criticism section), and the impression is lent that much or all of public choice theory involves little more and little less than carrying all of the standard simplifying H. economicus assumptions from market theory to political theory. Whatever were the intentions of the authors of the information sections, what most of them jointly provided was little more than a minimal, deformed skeleton on which to hang the subsequent attack. The core of the criticism itself rather obviously comes from someone who may have read all manner of secondary and tertiary sources, but who hasn't worked his way throguh much if any of the primary material.Gamahucheur 06:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you! thats exactly the way I'm reading this article. Most pertinent, as your mentioned: the information that is present seems to exist merely as an introduction to the criticism. It portrays Public Choice as some fringe concept that can be dismissed offhand. It just isn't approached from the right angle.. lets redo it.

I Agree That This Page Needs to Be Re-worked
So many minor characters associated with fringe movements like anarcho capitalism fill the page that it's not up to any real academic standard whatsoever. Caplyn? Friedman? I'd argue these are not real scholars at all. But even if you would argue they were, by any objective measure (citations etc.) they are not major characters in annals of public choice theory, and they certainly don't deserve mention, never mind such extensive space, in an encyclopedia article about the theory. This needs to be reworked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.34.247.77 (talk) 21:03, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

[Rehaul]
I agree that the article should be rehauled and I would be happy to help. Here is a long set of comments:

Line 3: It would be more correct to say that public choice theory is “related” to rational choice theory, etc.

Regarding the Pareto observation, it is best to see public choice theory (PCT), at its point of origin in economics, as a reaction to the policy economics of A. C. Pigou (microeconomic policy) and of J. M. Keynes or at least of his successors (macroeconomic policy). The work emanating from these schools of thought implicitly assumed the “benevolent despot” view of government. The main goal of the “Virginia School” was to show that those responsible for making and implementing policy in a democracy ought not to be relied upon to act “in the general interest,” as the benevolent despot theory assumed they do. Pareto had a similar negative reaction to the reformers of his day and sought to develop an explanation of their behavior. But, to my knowledge, he did not have the goal of “improving democracy” by understanding it. In any case, he did not develop a theory of collective decision-making. The major historical reference here is not Pareto but Swedish economist Knut Wicksell.

The idea that PCT aims to “reveal certain systematic trends towards inefficient government policies” may capture the aims of some practitioners. But PCT, as a field of study, does not have such an aim. It is true that PCT employs an “efficiency ideal” as a benchmark. But employing an ideal is not a peculiar characteristic of PCT. It is a characteristics of economics and, for that matter, of social science in general.

PCT theorists try to build an ideal and then to contrast reality with the ideal. Such a procedure is the only widely-approved means of studying “what is” in the complex fields of social interaction. The theorists who build an ideal (or at least those who are sensitive to the complexity of the phenomena) do not pretend that the ideal is attainable.

By the way, PCT tries to build an ideal by asking the following question. What kind of collective decision-making process would enable members of a collective to best achieve their goals? Because of this, the ideal can be used, with a strong measure of caution, as a benchmark for evaluating at least some of the characteristics of real democracies. If one thinks that he knows what members of a particular collective want, he can assess the institutions that exist on the basis of whether they help members get what they want. But making assessments of this sort is difficult and hazardous.

There is little relationship between whether a government policy is good (in the usual economic sense of benefits and costs) and rational ignorance. Even if everyone knew the effects of policies and of the likelihood that a candidates for elected office would implement them (which are heroic assumptions), one cannot deduce that the policies chosen in a democracy would be good. Whether policies would be good in general depends more on the institutions that are created to constrain actions for which costs are most certainly (i.e., most evidently) greater than benefits.

The paragraph that begins with a statement about good government should be rewritten. It should be about how government policies are determined partly by special interests. The author should refrain from making or implying judgments about whether collective decisions that are influenced by special interests are better than or worse than collective decisions that are not so influenced. A more specific point is that all interests are “special.” When PCT shows the “possibility” of government failure in the presence of pressure groups and lobbying, it does not imply that there is some alternative to this. It merely suggests that there may be grounds for constitution-type limits on the scope of the collective decisions, such as supra-majority rule, budget constraints, and public disclosure requirements.

The idea of government failure was a reaction to the benevolent despot theorists who claimed that if there is market failure, a market intervention is warranted. An intervention is not warranted, PCT suggested, if democratic governments cannot be relied on to implement what economists judge to be the right policy. Because there are good theoretical reasons (pressure groups for example) to think that a democratic government cannot be relied on, we can say that government failure may trump market failure. Like bad weather, economists may just have to tolerate market failure. There may be a theoretical remedy but there is no practical one.

Regarding the choice of representatives of Public Choice theory, I would place more emphasis on those who have tried to deal with the thorny problem of building a constitution. It is here that the principle foundational issues in a theory of collective decision-making arise. Those who merely build self-interest models of various political actors are contributors but I would not regard them as fundamental thinkers. Thus, I certainly would include William Riker as a major figure. Knut Wicksell, F. A. Hayek might also be mentioned as inspirations.

It occurs to me that the author may not realize that PCT is not an exclusive endeavor of professional economists. Rather than a bridge to non-economics disciplines, one might think of it as a joint endeavor.

One might add the following link, if it is not regarded as too commercial:

http://nomadpress.com/public_choice/34432.html

Chenin Blanc NOT nonsense
ahhh typical of economists that they cannot understand the REAL LIFE associations of economics in this world. Chenin Blanc HAS been closely related to public choice and I would LOVE to see someone dispute this. Ah... Can we at least see this article redone, and THEN discuss the Chenin addition?

Are you saying people, for the large part, don't behave rationally in real life? What a ridiculous assertion that has no grounding in fact. Who his Chenin Blanc? I can't find out anything about him nor have I heard of him which leads me to question his notability and think that he might just be nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabaton10 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Social Choice and Individual Values
Announcement: The above is the discussion tab for a new article Social Choice and Individual Values. Input is welcome through the article, the Talk page, or to me. The plan is to gather comment, corrections, or suggestions for probably at least a couple of weeks, make final changes, then go from there. Links to related articles (including the present one) would come after revision. Thanks for your help.

Thomasmeeks 16:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Thomas,

I just wanted to mention that I found out about public choice theory through reading a few blogs which were speaking of the "The Wisdom of Crowds". Here are the links, I hope you find them helpful:

How To Save The World - Links for the week

Kottke on The Wisdom of Crowds

--Jaycorrales 03:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Thx, Jay. Just got back.  BW, Thomasmeeks 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Public Choice/Public choice theory
As the PC article was started as a POV fork according to to its second edit summary, it absolutely needs to be folded back into a single article. However I don't have the technical know-how to execute such a content edit accurately. -- nae'blis (talk) 20:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I merged the articles as per above. However, my knowledge on the topic is limited so I could not clean up the article well. Morphh 20:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

A minimalist clean-up
That's what attempted, dropping virtually nothing but clarifying, documenting, rearranging. The intent was to reconcile without taking sides. A neutral POV can be maintained without losing the excitment of the subject. Thomasmeeks 17:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Public Choice Theory
Great work on the PCT article. Feel free to remove the cleanup banner when you feel comfortable with it. You've satisfied my reasons for adding it. Morphh 13:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, that's pretty authoritative. Thx, Morphh.  You were right to post the banner, and I wouldn't have been emboldened to act without it.  I may do a bit more on the article, but I'll return the honor of retiring the banner to you.

 * I think that the substance is there, but the article could still use some concision. Wish that there were a banner for that. Maybe there should be.  Or I could at least post this on the PCT Talk page.  BW, Thomasmeeks 11:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This article seems now to be more of a jumble than when I started it. There is a big disconnect, it seems to me, between the idea that public choice theory is the study of collective decision-making on the basis of the assumption that actors are self-interested and the idea that there can be both positive and normative public choice. No doubt, by expressing the second idea, one or more of the contributors invited all sorts of criticism of the theory. What people call normative public choice theory is merely the use of models of collective decision making to support a claim that some particular policy or institutional change should be made. Such a use of public choice theory is an APPLICATION of the theory and thus should be discussed in a supplementary section on "applications" rather than touted as part of what public choice theory is.

Another mistake, it seems to me is to use the term "behavior." Public choice theory does not study behavior, which is a much broader concept. It builds models or images of choosing actors. It contrasts the models with real behavior, of course. But again, this is an application of the theory. Not the theory itself.

A third mistake is to use the term "rational," as if self-interested action could be irrational.

In brief, practically all of the introductory paragaph should be deleted. The problem may be due to how this subject got started. It was first "Public Choice," which seemed to me to have been written by a critic of public choice theory. Rather than jettison this first effort and replace it with my own, I chose to write a different article on "Public Choice Theory" and to provide a link from the "Public Choice" article. True to the title, I tried to avoid any implication that the people involved in building the theory are part of a social or political movement.

At this stage, I am not sure that I see much hope for rectifying the situation. This is a shame because I think that the act of building collective decision models is very enlightening to the builder because it reveals the incentives that are likely to be faced by real people who occupy positions in everyday life that are similar to those occupied by actors in the model. For example, we build a model of a bureau chief in interaction with a legislature, a chief executive and lower-level bureaucrats in which we are able to identify incentives that seem specific or partly unique. We define that position and those incentives as the "role of the bureaucrat." And when we observe "real bureau chiefs," we suspect that they may be acting in a similar role and, therefore, face similar incentives. We think that we already know something about them because we have built a model. We are thus "enlightened."

To some degree, I regret having started this article.

Pat Gunning (11/1/06)

 * Hey, Pat I can't say what your article looked like when you started it. But the lead was a tangle when I edited it (following a clean-up template of someone else who removed it after I my edit).  My revisions were an attempt to clarify & correct what was there.  I used Gordon Tullock's New Palgrave article to sort things out.  If my edits misintepreted Tullock (or, more improbably, you think he got it wrong), you're welcome to fix it. Thomasmeeks 22:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

What?
"...which hearkens back to the earlier name and interdisciplinary origin of economics but should not to be conflated with the..."

hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 14:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Second sentence now clear as mud, right? Thomasmeeks 22:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

«The book has a marked positive-economics flavor but in a consensualist ethical context.» in Origin, 2nd paragraph. This is economists' jargon.
 * Hope the Edit helps. BW, Thomasmeeks 16:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Is Kenneth Arrow a public-choice theorist?
Not in standard usage, as observed by the JEL classification codes referred in the lead of the article. JEL D71 includes "social choice" and excludes most "public choice" articles according to an Advanced Google Scholar search. It would not if "social choice" theory was a subset of "public choice" theory. There is overlap in some articles to be sure, but that only means that one could write on both subjects and use 2 methods and literatures in one article. Duncan Black is credited by Gordon Tullock as being the "father" of PCT. Arrow recognizes Black in his own work, but that does not make Arrow a public choice theorist. It only means that Black influenced both fields. Thomasmeeks 23:36, 23 December 2006 (UTC) (typo edit)Thomasmeeks 12:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, there is overlap of the JEL codes. More generally, the JEL codes are far from a perfect taxonomy, as their formulators would admit, and as anyone who has done much literature review should see.
 * No one has claimed that SCT is a subset of PCT. It is an insult to your opponent and to your audience to wale on an obvious strawman.
 * The relevant questions here are:
 * Is the definition of “public choice theory” in this article appropriate? If it is not, then it needs to be rewritten.  In any event, note that at present it does not define PCT as exactly and only that which the JEL classifies with the PCT code, nor does the definition wave-away anything that otherwise might be recognize as in the intersection of PCT and SCT.
 * Does the Arrow Impossibility Theorem come under public choice theory as defined in this article ?  If the Theorem does, then for the purposes of this article the theorem is PCT.
 * 4. The point of referring to Black is that you argued that PCT began with The Calculus of Consent, and that Arrow's IT, having come before TCoC was thus demonstrably not PCT. Black's work comes before both TCoC and the IT, so your claim is exploded.  It is unacceptable for you to pretend that I was referring to Black for other purposes.  Cease.
 * —SlamDiego 06:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Happy holidays, fellow pilgrim. Thomasmeeks 13:06, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Happy holidays to you. May copies of Clark, Wicksteed, and Davenport have been found under your tree. —SlamDiego 18:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

 * 'Preciate the thought.

On the substance of the above, others might agree that it is a mistake to shoehorn 'public choice' categorically into the taxonomy of the JEL classification codes.* One reason why it is a mistake is that public-choice scholars do not feel similarly constrained. Thus, in the journal Public Choice, there is a nontrivial number of articles about social choice theory. But I'd guess it is not called 'public choice theory' (for an obvious reason). I believe that there is an analogous case to be made for not suggesting that a social-choice theorist is necessarily a 'public-choice theorist'. (Of course, nothing prevents one from being both.) Comments welcome.

* And this, despite that the fact that in that entry, the link of JEL D72 to Public choice theory does just that and even though that link may be as good as any.

-- Thomasmeeks 13:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Some further thoughts, in particular on (3, 2nd part) and (4) above.
 * 3 (2nd part): Does the Arrow Impossibility Theorem come under public choice theory as defined in this article?
 * Answers that might satisfy public-choice theorists and social-choice theorists are:
 * i:Yes, when Arrow's IT is the object of analysis from a perspective of public choice theory (including methods and emphasis).
 * ii: No, when Arrow's IT is the object of analysis from a perspective of social choice theory.

 * Concerning (4) on the relation of Duncan Black's work to SCT and PCT, Arrow's Social Choice and Individual Values (1951, pp. 6, 75-80, 93-94) has well-chosen remarks which serve both to distinguish Black's analysis from his own (and as it happens much of post-Arrow SCT) and aspects of Black's theory that are recognizably PCT.  So, Black has a fair claim to being very important for modern PCT and modern SCT.  This does not deny the differences of the two schools of theory.

 * All of this has a bearing on the question in the title of this section.  For the purpose of taxonomy (useful in an encyclopedia for drawing as strong differences as most commonly recognized usage allows), I believe that that there is a better case for not to classifying Arrow as a PC theorist.  Comments welcome. --Thomasmeeks 18:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Public choice theory is not in this article defined as a “school of theory” in the same sense as, say, Austrian economics may be said to be a school of theory. Rather, PCT is defined as the application of tools of modern economics to the study of constitutional democracy.  Whether Kenneth Arrow has done public choice theory then turns on whether he had used such tools for such purpose.  I think that the answer to that is, for the most part obvious.  It might be thought that the IT fries bigger fish, but the “non-dictatorship” requirement is there precisely because of a concern for “democracy”, and the social welfare functions (and/or voting rules) map to constitutions (and vice versa).

 * If someone asked whether Kenneth Arrow were first and foremost a public choice theorist, then my initial response would be to object to the question itself. But if that question must be answered, then I would say that he were not.  But we don't need that anyone should be first and foremost a public choice theorist; it could, in fact, be the case that everyone who did PCT were merely incidentally a public choice theorist.  If there are any points to the paragraph in question
 * Public Choice economics often results in conclusions that would suggest preference for small-government economic policies. Still, this is not always the case. Kenneth Arrow (whose impossibility theorem is the result of public choice theory provoking the most hostile criticism) has supported some decidedly left-wing policies, and Mancur Olson was an advocate of strong government and instead opposed political interest group lobbying.
 * they are that PCT is not mere cover for classical liberals or conservatives to make prescriptions, nor are its conclusions sufficient to persuade all of its practitioners to become classical liberals or conservatives. —SlamDiego 11:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

 * There is much in the above with which one could agree. Still, there are, I believe, problems with the Arrow statement in the article as written.  The preceding sentence seems to refer to the government-failure paragraph immediately before.  But it does not refer to anything in the literature indicating a presumption of PCT as to large or small government.  It is one thing to state a loose generalization followed by a counterexample to refute that generalization (which the Mancur Olson reference does).  But the Arrow and Arrow-IT reference is something else.  It refers to an aspect of PCT different from government failure, namely SCT.  It refers to Arrow's politics in a way unrelated to the content of his theoretical stance.  I believe a better way but along related lines that avoids these difficulties (to say nothing of Wikipedia issues that might reasonably be raised on the current version) would be to cite Buchanan from the top External link on the content of the section "Is Public Choice Ideologically Biased?"  Thx for comments.  Thomasmeeks 22:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Okay, I can agree that the structure of the paragraph could facilitate a mistaken inference, and I certainly wouldn't object to an attempt to distinguish between an economist's embracing intervention as a consequence of PCT versus his or her embracing it orthogonally or in contradiction to his or her PCT work. —SlamDiego 23:02, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, thx. (Was doing serious homework on last line before responding.)  Happy new year. --Thomasmeeks 16:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I've recently read Public Choice: An Introduction, by Dennis C. Mueller; and that review is clearly more inclined to view SCT as a "part" of PCT than this article. (I put "part" in quotes, because since PCT is inherently interdisciplinary, it's components can be seen more as tributaries/influences than as subsets.) In particular, I think that's because that article focuses more on the roots of PCT and less on current-day research under that label as in this article here. I have several responses:
 * 1. Today, analysis which treats politicians or bureaucrats as political agents using the tools of classical economics (assumed selfish rationality for some definable utility function) is considered PCT, while analysis which treats voters that way is considered SCT.
 * 2. This division was less true earlier; and in fact, several of the canonical classics of PCT actually include a lot that would be considered SCT by that definition.
 * 3. Also. even by that definition, the fact is that rational-agent politicians respond to voters, so understanding various analyses (including a rational-agent analysis) of voters is important to understanding politicians. In this sense, you can't do even modern PCT without understanding SCT.
 * So, overall, I'd simplify it as follows:
 * There are two definitions of PCT. The broader, earlier one is "using the tools of economics for political science"; the narrower, more contemporary one is "using the tools of economics to analyze the behaviors of governments and their component agents". SCT is a subset of the former, and an important influence on the latter.
 * I'll make some bold edits to the article to clarify these ideas, but of course I welcome any further edits, from my perspective of from others.
 * Homunq (talk) 12:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Section 1 Edit
5th paragraph after 1st sentence deleted:
 * It was in part a reaction to government policies recommended by economists during the fifty or so years that preceded it. Policy-oriented microeconomists had used Pigovian welfare economics as a basis for improving market behavior, and post-war macroeconomists used Keynesian models to give policy advice to the government and central bank. These policy economists implicitly assumed that the government was both a benevolent and, to some degree, an omnipotent despot. The founders of the Public Choice Society focused on the assumption of benevolence. Recognizing the complexity of political decision-making in a democracy, they sought to explain how decisions are actually made by governments. They hoped that an improved understanding of democratic decision-making would show why sound economic advice was often not followed and why, when it was followed, it often had effects that were contrary to those predicted by economic models. In addition to studying how laws and policies in a democracy are actually made and implemented, the early theorists also examined procedural rules and constitutions.

Reasons: 1. It repeats material covered elsewhere above and below it, and section holds together well without it. Those are enough. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thomasmeeks (talk (Oops.) Thx for noting.  Forgot to sign,  --Thomasmeeks 03:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

(Added following 1st (un)signature to make all subsequent script normal size, instead of small . --Thomasmeeks (talk) 18:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC))

Section 1: last sentence deleted
The following last sentence of this section was deleted:
 * The result was an eclectic group that, in general, conformed to the single definition that public choice is the study of collective decision-making on the basis of the assumption that actors are self-interested.

Readers would find the sentence unnecessary in light of sentences immediately preceding it (which strongly suggest eclecticism) and the lead (which characterizes public choice theory along just the lines suggested by the deleted subject).

Including the sentence may strike readers as ingroup-ish or as unnecessary at best. If more needs to be said pro, con, or other to form a consensus for further action, please indicate below. Thanks. --Thomasmeeks 20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC) (Proof-reading Edit. Sorry.) --Thomasmeeks 22:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

In favor of deletion:

Opposed to deletion:

Other:

Photos of James M. Buchanan requested
This page could do with some images of Buchanan et al.17:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Austrian type Public Choicer
Who is "Lopez" referred to as an Austrian type Public Choicer... I've never heard of him/her and without a link in wikipedia for their personal entry, it seems dubious whether this person is noteworthy enough for inclusion, if they exist at all. Perhaps this name should be excluded? 213.37.192.62 (talk) 21:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Ed Lopez is the current president of the Public Choice society — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.240.113 (talk) 23:04, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Bundling (public choice)
How does Bundling (public choice) fit into this? Does it even fall under the purview of public choice, or is it just a quirk related to the way electoral systems are sometimes set up (i.e. we elect representatives from a limited set of candidates, rather than voting directly on legislation)? Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 17:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Well...it's only 5 years later but...
 * The freedom of choice concept is closely related to the benefit principle of taxation: those who pay for a specific government service should be the ones who receive the benefit of that service. The principle is the free market analogue within the political process, which is otherwise characterized by general fund financing.  Examples of earmarked taxes are those for highways, airports, public transit, and, of course education.  Archtypical cases are business licences and local improvements.  Buchanan illustrated the efficiency of earmarked taxes by contrasting them to the tie-in sale which is the market parallel to general funds and therefore less efficient.  However, except for the fact that school taxes are earmarked, they remain a general set of revenues directed toward a diverse set of services and locations.  The taxpayer preferences are exercised through an inefficient mechanism, and taxpayers as consumers are growing increasingly critical of the service provided as shown by recent polls.  A 1978 Gallup survey indicated that the rating for the public schools slipped from "B" to "C" during the period 1974 to 1978. - Daniel J. Brown, The Case For Tax-Target Plans
 * --Xerographica (talk) 19:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Applications in other fields
I figure that there are likely many applications of public choice theory in the social sciences, such as in sociology, politics and philosophy ; this ought to be discussed. 69.157.229.153 (talk) 22:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Concentrated benefits and diffuse costs - Proposed for Deletion
Would editors familiar with public choice theory please weigh on whether concentrated benefits and diffuse costs is notable enough a concept to warrant its own entry. It is currently being proposed for deletion...Articles for deletion/Concentrated benefits and diffuse costs. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 23:12, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Proposed title change from "Public choice theory" to "Public choice"
0T. A reason for the above proposal is this: in Google scholar searches the shorter term (+ econ) is about ten times more common than the longer term. The top 2 footnoted article titles in the article illustrate the more common use. (The two terms in article for clarification of course.)  Comments welcome. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 19:39, 1 January 2013 (UTC) --(corrected & expanded for clarity per above links. Regrets on not noticing this sooner. --TM 14:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A Wikipedia search for "public choice" came up with 431 hits. In reviewing the first 50, it looks like a substantial majority deal with public choice theory. (I did not search "public choice theory".) Interestingly, "social choice theory" is one of the results. I favor keeping the present title as it makes clear that the article is about an academic subject. (Compare "social choice" as a title, which would lose its' academic flavor compared to "social choice theory".)--S. Rich (talk) 19:56, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1T.0. Quick reaction, S.! Let try to respond. I grant the advantage of the term "public choice theory". That's why as per above, I favor retaining "public choice theory", just not as the title.  I also do accept that the article should as accessible as reasonably possible.  Let me be more explicit on points above and add other considerations in the following numbered points.
 * 1T. "Public choice theory" suggests a scholarly subject. Yet, scholarly attestation is much stronger for the shorter term per above.
 * 2T. A title change would not change the subject matter and so would not become any less "academic". Maybe it would become more so in using the more common scholarly terminology.
 * With a title change, anyone wp:searching for "public choice theory" would be WP:REDIRECTed to the same article, just as any WP link to Public choice now redirects to Public choice theory. Keeping "public choice theory" in the article as an alternate label (as advocated in the top Edit) would clearly flag the crucial element of theory in it. Rather than rebutting the above proposal, IMO the wp search with 431 hits (like the top-cited result) I think indicates the preponderant usage of "public choice" as referring to the same content as in Public choice theory. IMO that's a plus for the shorter title.
 * 3T. I think that most people would rather learn the most commonly used econ jargon directly. Use of that term as the title conveys information to that effect. That's supported by the name of the 1st 2 footnoted sources in article and the Google scholar searches cited above:
 * Gordon Tullock, [1987] 2008, "public choice," The New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics. Abstract.
 * William F. Shughart II, 2008. "Public Choice," The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics, 2nd ed.
 * I think that instead of adding interest to those articles, the longer title would do the opposite. There's a case for not scaring people away unnecessarily.  As to wp search for "Public choice'' with 431 hits, that's more than 3X the number of "public choice theory" hits.
 * There's even a case for saying that it's somewhat misleading to use the much less common term as the title in suggesting a more common usage than is the case.
 * 4T. The journal Public Choice clearly includes public choice theory. Why doesn't it use 'Theory' in the title? For one thing, b/c  it includes an empirical, not just theoretical aspect, as the link to "Empirical work" at  the journal Home page http://www.springer.com/economics/public+finance/journal/11127 indicates.  That correctly suggests that its subject is not only about 'theory'.  'Public choice theory' as a title incorrectly suggests that the subject of the current article is only about theory. The same conclusion here applies to the article titles cited in (3T).
 * I do appreciate the above comment & opportunity to elaborate here. Happy New Year (still!). --Thomasmeeks (talk) 23:11, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you are supporting PCT. When typing "public choice", public choice theory & public choice dilemma show up as articles. If one insists on simply searching for public choice, we get the redirect. With this in mind, I think the issue is of article naming. So WP:PRECISE would prevail in that PCT is more topically precise as an article name. I have no stake (or is it steak?) in either title. --S. Rich (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 5T. I hope that I may be so bold as to bold a portion of my (1T.0) comment that unfortunately does not support the 1st sentence of the preceding as to the proposal of the section heading above.
 * To elaborate a bit on (1T.0), use of PC and PCE in the 1st sentence of the article is warranted by WP:LEAD guideline:
 * When the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, and it may include variations, including synonyms.
 * 6T. WP:PRECISE is indeed central but IMO supportive as to the lead sentence there:
 * Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. (Italics added per relevance.)
 * More specifically, the next paragraph there refers to the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC "exception". 'Public choice' suggests something broader than 'PC theory', making the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guideline relevant here. The JEL Classification Codes Guide, drilled to at JEL: D72 (the relevant category for Public choice theory per fn. 4 there), refers to 'public choice' (not 'public choice theory'), like the dictionary/encyclopedia articles of (3T) and the subject matter of the journal Public Choice per (4T). Such usage considerations & wp guidelines I think support 'Public choice' as the more appropriate primary-topic title. Thank you.  --Thomasmeeks (talk) 13:34, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree, based on the reliable sources you shared, that the title should be changed from "Public choice theory" to "Public choice". --Xerographica (talk) 05:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move from this and the previous discussion -Thomasmeeks, Xerographica and Homunq favour PC and S. Rich favor PCT. WP:COMMONNAME backs this up as the most prevalent term used in literature. S Rich's argument that PCT make it clear that the article is about an academic subject is good but has not convicined the other editors. Salix (talk): 19:16, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Public choice theory → Public choice – I attempted today to act on the above proposal using the "move" tab at Public choice theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MovePage/Public_choice_theory) but was unsuccessful, though for none of the reasons listed there ("already an article with the name" etc.: there was & is only a wp:redirect from "Public choice" to "Public choice theory"). Hence, this subsection. Reasons for the retitling are offered immediately above at Talk:Public choice theory. Thank you. --Relisted Tyrol5   [Talk]  04:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)  --Thomasmeeks (talk) 15:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I do not see any consensus for the move. Premature. Suggest we invite other editors to comment by advertising on Project pages. In any event, the bot should put the proposal on the rfc page. --S. Rich (talk) 15:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)15:28, 8 January 2013 (UTC) NOTE: The proposal is now on the request move page. The link for the request will direct to this page. 16:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Agree - If outside editors were interested or knowledgeable enough about the topic then they would have already been watching this entry. That's the entire point of a watchlist.  Rich isn't here because he's read anything by Buchanan...or even knows who Buchanan is...or is even remotely interested in the topic...he's just here because he's stalking me just like Rubin is.  --Xerographica (talk) 16:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

NOTE TO EDITORS: If you are here because you clicked the "Discuss" button on the request for move page, please see the discussion above the Request for Move Banner.--S. Rich (talk) 16:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to placing a neutral request for comment here on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Economics page. (Of course, it should not be argued, much less voted on, at the latter link.) I hope that any substantive arguments (including any added comments S. might have)  would be confined to Talk:Public choice theory. While S. & I may disagree on the above, I have no personal complaint against him (except for disagreeing ; ). Thank you.  --Thomasmeeks (talk) 16:44, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Thomas. A notice has been posted. Feel free to modify it as necessary. --S. Rich (talk) 17:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC) PS: As Politics and Libertarianism are posted as interested Projects, I think I'll add the notice on those talk pages as well,17:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC) Done. 18:13, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that PC is a more common term than PCT, and that it should be the name of the article, though the word "theory" should appear somewhere in the first sentence. Homunq (࿓) 06:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hansjürgens' Definition
Found a definition that I like better than the current one. Here's the current definition...

 * (C) Public choice or public choice theory has been described as "the use of economic tools to deal with traditional problems of political science"

Here's Hansjürgens' definition...

 * Against this background, public choice is nothing but a rigorous application of microeconomic theory to the public sector (or more precisely: the non-market sector). - Bernd Hansjürgens, The influence of Knut Wicksell on Richard Musgrave and James Buchanan

So it could be put like so...

 * (A) Public choice or public choice theory has been described as the "application of microeconomic theory to the public sector."

Thoughts? --Xerographica (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I'd go with "theory and research methods". Other than that, I like your suggestion. Homunq (࿓) 18:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Do you mean "Public choice or public choice theory has been described as the application of microeconomic theory and research methods to the public sector." ?--S. Rich (talk) 18:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, or ""Public choice or public choice theory has been described as the application of theories and research methods from microeconomics to the public sector." Or something like that. You could also use "paradigm" instead of "theory and research methods"; though "paradigm" is so overused as to have lost most of its meaning, this is actually the kind of thing it was supposed to refer to in Kuhn. (Coincidentally, Kuhn's book is actually within reach from where I'm sitting.) Homunq (࿓) 23:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Well, I was about to make the change. But some guy named Tullock has already provided a definition. Some thought about how to reconcile these two is needed. --S. Rich (talk) 03:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Let me try.
 * It's commendable IMO that top-editor X. has come here before replacing the Current definition with the proposed Alternative definition, which I've labelled (C) and (A) above respectively for ease of reference. Still, no one has provided any explicit reason for selecting (C) over (A).
 * Let me provide some arguments for (C), the quotation for which comes from Gordon Tullock, [1987] 2008, "public choice," The New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics. Abstract, according to fn. 1 in the article. The Tullock article corresponds to the Wikipedia article under discussion. Let me number tha following for ease of reference.
 * 1T. The source of (A) is only secondarily about public choice, according to its article title "The Influence of Knut Wicksell on Richard Musgrave and James Buchanan" by Bernd Hansjürgens. It is reasonable to believe that the The New Palgreve article would be a better source for a definition of public choice than an article only secondarily about that subject (that is, in the context of the 2 authors discussed in the (A)-source article).  Moreover Tullock is not just any author but a very influential one in the development of public choice as an academic subject. Most informed readers might find the source for (C) more compelling than that for (A).
 * 2T. As to substance, the source for (A) adds the qualifying parenthetical phrase:
 * (or more precisely: the non-market sector)
 * to the part quoted in (A). So, leaving out that phrase is leaving out the more precise part, according to the author of (A), not a good thing.  Adding the phrase just makes (A) more obscure.  Readers here might correctly guess that the phrase refers to voters, politicians, and government bureaucrats, but it's doubtful that the general reader should be expected to figure that out.
 * 3T. Tullock's definition in (C) is more appropriately general in suggesting the public-choice connection to and distinction from "traditional political science" in its "use of economic tools", which surely would include, not just microeconomic theory but research methods, and for example econometrics, as a Google scholar search of:
 * "public choice" economics econometrics
 * suggests as to the number of hits. So, the generality of (C) fills in the incompleteness of (A) without requiring the editorial supplementation suggested for (A) by H.'s edit latest edit above.
 * 4T. Of course, public choice has a micro focus, but that is not necessary to point out in the first sentence, which is general. In substance, a micro focus is already reflected in the 3rd & 4th sentences of the article:
 * [PC theory} is the subset of positive political theory that models voters, politicians, and bureaucrats as mainly self-interested. In particular, it studies such agents and their interactions in the social system either as such or under alternative constitutional rules. These can be represented in a number of ways, including standard constrained utility maximization, game theory, or decision theory.
 * and in the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph:
 * Within the Journal of Economic Literature classification codes, public choice is a subarea of microeconomics, ...
 * In sum, (1T-4T) are arguments for (C), the current 1st article sentence (above top), over (B). Thanks for your consideration.  --Thomasmeeks (talk) 05:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * My problem with the current definition is that many readers coming to this article from a non-academic context will read "economic tools" as meaning tools which are economic (ie, markets), not tools of economists (as I think it actually means in this sentence). I suppose I'd be OK with just changing it to "economists' tools" but I like the (A) proposals even better. I have no dog in the race of "political science" versus "public sector", though I suppose I weakly prefer the former. Homunq (࿓) 16:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well done, Thomas, and thank you too, Homunq. Let's leave as is. E.g., stick with Tullock.--S. Rich (talk) 18:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thomasmeeks, there's no doubt that Tullock is more notable than Hansjürgens, but Hansjürgens' definition is short and simple. In other words...it's more economical.  It gives readers more bang for their buck.  It gives readers more for less.  Also, do you have any evidence that Tullock was explicitly referring to econometrics as one of the economic tools? --Xerographica (talk) 23:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Simplifying and consolidating similar sections
Let me label the following suggestions for ease of reference, all of which are aimed at simplifying and consolidating similar sections.

1T. Section 1 & 2 subheadings shows overlap of identically labelled subsections (Rent seeking, Special interests). That's largely due to an edit from Oct. 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Public_choice_theory&diff=prev&oldid=246352159 that broke down the section 1 into subheadings, which revealed but did not create the overlap. So, I suggest consolidating the identically named sections of 1 & 2.

2T. The heading "Theory" in an article currently named "Public choice theory" is not very revealing. So, I suggest removing the sect. heading "Theory" and letting the 'subsections of sections 1 & 2 become sections, ordered by how closely they are related, for example, sect. 1.2 Decision-making processes and the state nearer to sect. 2.1 Democracy.

3T. Sect. 4 Development looks related to sect. 1 Background. So, I suggest letting sect. 4 follow sect. 1.

4T. The short 2-sentence sect. 3 Applications discusses bureaucracy and regulation but are discussed in more detail elsewhere, namely the Bureaucracy and "Expressive interests" and democratic irrationality sections. So, I suggest migrating sect. 3 Applications sentences to where they are elsewhere discussed, consistent per MOS:PARAGRAPHS guideline.

Here is what the relevant current and suggested portions of the article outline look like:
 * Current outline
 * 1 Background
 * 1.1 Special interests
 * 1.2 Decision-making processes and the state
 * 1.3 Bureaucracy
 * 1.4 Rent-seeking
 * 2 Theory
 * 2.1 Democracy
 * 2.2 Special interests
 * 2.3 "Expressive interests" and democratic irrationality
 * 2.4 Rent-seeking
 * 2.5 Political stance
 * 3 Applications
 * 4 Development

 * Suggested outline
 * 1 Background
 * 2 Development
 * 3 Democracy
 * 4 Decision-making processes and the state
 * 5 "Expressive interests" and democratic irrationality
 * 6 Special interests
 * 7 Rent-seeking
 * 8 Bureaucracy
 * 9 Political stance

The order of the latter is suggested by the order of the JEL: D7 at JEL: D72, Economic Models of Political Processes: Rent-Seeking, Elections, Legislatures, and Voting Behavior and at JEL: D73 Bureaucracy; Administrative Processes in Public Organizations; Corruption

Thank you. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 19:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the article suffers from way too much redundancy. Your outline looks pretty decent.  Why "background" rather than "history" though?  Have you read up much on the benefit principle?  Here are some relevant passages...
 * The effect [of the Finanztheoretische Untersuchungen] on me was dramatic. Wicksell laid out before me a set of ideas that seemed to correspond precisely with those that I had already in my head, ideas that I could not have expressed and would not have dared to express in the public-finance mindset of the time. - James M. Buchanan

 * The most sophisticated contribution was made by Knut Wicksell 1896. He explicitly identified the fundamental methodological error in the then-orthodox approach, and he combined positive criticism with normative suggestions for reforms.  Wicksell recognized the necessity of bridging the two sides of the fiscal account, and he noted the indeterminacy of any proposed principles that were limited to tax-side considerations. - James M. Buchanan

 * For Buchanan, Wicksell is “the intellectual father of modern public finance” (Buchanan, 1968: 192), and he states: “In any overall evaluation of the history of fiscal thought, Wicksell alone commands the heights of genius” (Buchanan, 1967: 285). Buchanan’s Nobel-prize speech honored Wicksell with the accolade that Wicksell deserves designation as the most important precursor in public finance theory. (Buchanan, 1987: 243). - Bernd Hansjürgens

 * Nevertheless, Musgrave also admitted “that Wicksell laid the basis for the modern theory of public finance” (Musgrave, 1970: 33) and “Wicksell’s main contribution to the debate is his emphasis on the political nature of the problem” (Musgrave, 1959: 71). - Bernd Hansjürgens

 * So I'd say that if Buchanan is the father of public choice...then perhaps we can think of Wicksell as the grandfather of public choice. Eh, something like that.  There are plenty of other sources establishing Wicksell's influence.  --Xerographica (talk) 00:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Well, I'm wary of "(grand)father of _____" statements in WP articles, esp. without attribution to a very notable source. Buchanan's Nobel lecture (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1986/buchanan-lecture.html#) is structured around points he says Wicksell made in his 1896 dissertation. Key elements might be referenced in the Background section. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 22:18, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

 * But again, why "background" rather than "history"? Similarly, what's the connection between the benefit principle and public choice?  A recurring theme for Wicksell, Buchanan and others is the focus on combining the taxation and expenditure into one.  Would you agree?  --Xerographica (talk) 21:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, in general, no. The above raises points outside the purview of this section.

IMO "Background" is a useful heading for possibly filling in as suggested above & possibly concurrent early development but not in PC proper, though WP:VERifiable in relation to PC. I'm certainly not committed to the current content of the Background section.

I have no doubt that questions such as the previous edits could be extended very long and far. Rather than my attempting to address them piecemeal, my suggestion would be that insofar as they pertain to the current article (not say to Public finance) they be raised in their own dedicated sections below with specific documentation (including p. numbers etc. if they would help) if looking for comment.

Here are suggested places I've found helpful & suggestive per above edit:
 * Buchanan in his Nobel lecture (1986) (where Wicksell is referred to as a "precursor" of modern public-choice theory) & elsewhere as "precursory" to PC (2003, pp. 3-4 at http://www.gmu.edu/centers/publicchoice/pdf%20links/Booklet.pdf).
 * Tullock ([1987] 2008), where Duncan Black is described as the father of modern PC (with the implicature that modern PC had not been born before that).
 * Bernard Grofman (1987 [2008]), "Black, Duncan," The New Palgrave: A Dictionary of Economics, v. 1, pp. 250–51 as to the significance of Black relative to his predecessors.
 * The Encyclopedia of Public Choice, 2003, v. 1 Public Choice: An Introduction Dennis C. Mueller, pp. 32-48 http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-306-47828-4_2.
 * http://www.dictionaryofeconomics.com/dictionary to search by keywords of one's own choosing with quotation marks if looking for an exact phraee. For example, "benefit principle" occurs in 3 articles, none of them PC.
 * http://scholar.google.com/ similarly to search, for example, "public choice" "benefit principle" produces http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q="public+choice"+"benefit+principle"&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C47&as_sdtp=, not IMO very promising material for the PC article as to its generality of application in PC.

I hope that the above is helpful. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 07:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I repeat myself from earlier, but IMO the above queries are a good thing in not plunging ahead without trying to see if there might be some problems with such an effort. More than one of the current sections would be better if they included footnoted references and material that reflected the footnotes. The article is more likely to be read as a result. TM -- 15:37, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Preference revelation
Thomasmeeks, great work with the "Background and development" section. As you're already aware,[....]

[O]ne fundamental concept that I feel is missing from this article and other related articles is the preference revelation problem. For your convenience, I recently shared quite a few passages on the preference revelation talk page. When you get a chance, please look them over and let me know what your thoughts are. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 06:48, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your top comment, X. It might be of wider interest, yea, even applicability, to note that the revision referred to above was a couple dozen rough-draft edits in the making over a 12-day period to "final" edit at Public choice.
 * IMO incredible effort has gone into X.'s link.
 * The most directly useful cites in X.'s link above as to Public choice might be:

 * Dennis C. Mueller (2008). "Public Choice: An Introduction," in Readings in Public Choice and Constitutional Political Economy, Springer. ch. 2, pp. 31-46. Abstract.
 * Mancur Olson (1973). "Evaluating Performance in the Public Sector," in The Measurement of Economic and Social Performance, Columbia University Press, ch. 12, pp. 353-410.
 * Albert Breton (1998). Competitive Governments, Cambridge. Description.
 * Vincent Ostrom and Elinor Ostrom (1977), "Public Goods and Public Choices," in Alternatives for Delivering Public Services: Toward Improved Performance, Westview Press, pp. 7–49. Reprinted in in Polycentricity and Local Public Economies, University of Michigan Press, pp. 75-117.,
 * which I've tried to format a little better§ & in the Ostrom case to track down the original publication source.* For what it's worth, in my experience Google or Google scholar not infrequently works  better the more and longer one tries.)
 * An appropriate heading might be "Public goods and preference revelation", since Google scholarly discussion of "public choice" and "preference revelation is usually relative to  public goods.
 * Let me suggest that fn. WP:CITEBUNDLEING, as at the current fn. 18, and the format itself there, might also useful, depending on whether the Edit length allows breaking out different sentences therein by citation.
 * Like me, X., I hope that you'd take your time, with the difference, I hope, that you'd be faster than I (ceteris paribus, for quality of Edit ; ).
 * § Speaking of which for no extra charge & for those who have the energy, here are examples (accessible in WP Edit mode) of formats for inserting page-specific links (if available) into references of Google-book previews (such as at the table of contents, 1st example, usually coded as PR or PP [+Arabic page number],  or the beginning of chapter [2nd examplea, also +Arabic page number]:
 * Amartya Sen [(1979). "Personal Utilities and Public Judgements: Or What's Wrong With Welfare Economics," Economic Journal, 89(355), pp. 537-558. Reprinted in Sen (1982, 1997), Choice, Welfare and Measurement, pp. 327-52.
 * Mueller, Dennis C. (2003). Public Choice III. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Description and preview (or "chapter-preview links if the Table of Contents has some chapter links).
 * * For what it's worth, in my experience Google or Google scholar not infrequently works better the more and longer one tries. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 18:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

What is public choice theory?
I read the intro and I have no idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.78.86.141 (talk) 09:04, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

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Dr. Drakopoulos's comment on this article
Dr. Drakopoulos has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"1) William Niskanen is generally considered the founder of public choice literature on the bureaucracy. Please add: There is also work examining the interplay among bureaucracy, corruption and clientism (for example, Kurer, 1993; Drakopoulos and Karayiannis 1999). Kurer, O. (1993) "Clientism, Corruption and the Allocation of Resources", Public 	Choice, vol.  77, pp.259-73. Drakopoulos S. A. and Karayiannis, A. D. (1999) "Towards an Economic Approach to Imperfect Meritocracy", Bulletin of Economic Research, vol. 51, No.2, pp. 151-62.

2) Criticisms Please add: Some authors have expressed reservations concerning  the general application of conceptual  tools from economics to public choice. For instance, the standard optimising framework has difficulties in explaining macroeconomic policy phenomena in some countries, like long term spiralling public debts and sequential setting of policy targets (see Mosley, 1984; Fogel, 1992; Drakopoulos, 2004).

Mosley, P. (1984) The Making of Economic Policy, Brighton : Wheatshef Books. Fogel, R. (1992) "Problems in Modelling Complex Dynamic Interactions: the Political Realignment of the 1850's, Economics and Politics, vol. 4, pp.215-254. Drakopoulos, S. A. (2004) "Satisficing and Sequential Targets in Economic Policy Design: a Politico-Economic Approach”, Contributions to Political Economy, vol.23, No.1, pp.49-64."

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

Dr. Drakopoulos has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:

 * Reference : Gotsis, George & Drakopoulos, Stavros A., 2008. "Economic and Religious Choice: A Case-Study from Early Christian Communities," MPRA Paper 7097, University Library of Munich, Germany.

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 15:30, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Nitzan's comment on this article
Dr. Nitzan has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"The distinction between individual and collective rent-seeking contests deserves inclusion, in particular in light of the recent research on group rent seeking."

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

Dr. Nitzan has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:

 * Reference : Epstein, Gil S. & Mealem, Yosef & Nitzan, Shmuel, 2012. "The Efficacy and Efforts of Interest Groups in Post Elections Policy Formation," IZA Discussion Papers 7031, Institute for the Study of Labor (IZA).

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Dr. Canegrati's comment on this article
Dr. Canegrati has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"The critique by Linda McQuaig to Sen's works seems to be too publicized. In order to criticize a Nobel prize winner you should have a stronger background than the one she has."

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Dr. Canegrati has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:

 * Reference 1: Emanuele, Canegrati, 2007. "A Contribution to the Positive Theory of Direct Taxation," MPRA Paper 6117, University Library of Munich, Germany.

 * Reference 2: Canegrati, Emanuele, 2007. "A formula for the optimal taxation in Probabilistic Voting Models characterized by Single Mindedness," MPRA Paper 1896, University Library of Munich, Germany.

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 12:47, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Winer's comment on this article
Dr. Winer has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"This is a hard article to write. I think the article would be clearer if it stayed away from criticism of the approach, and just delivered the message straight up, so to speak.

There are two major strands of thought: one is essentially positive, and one is normative - a critique of the current system of government and its evolution in Western countries. Separate articles could be done from each of these two perspectives."

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

Dr. Winer has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:

 * Reference : Louis Hotte, 2010. "Democracy, inequality and the environment when citizens can mitigate privately or act collectively," Working Papers 1007E, University of Ottawa, Department of Economics.

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text:
States of Guernsey

The States of Guernsey (États de Guernesey), officially the States of Deliberation and sometimes referred to as the Government of Guernsey, is the parliament and government of the British Crown dependency of Guernsey. Some laws and ordinances approved by the States of Guernsey also apply to Alderney and Sark (the other component parts of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, along with Herm) as "Bailiwick-wide legislation" with the consent of the governments of those islands. All enactments of the States of Guernsey apply to Herm as well as Guernsey, since Herm is directly administered by the Bailiwick of Guernsey.

When constituted as a legislature, it is officially called the States of Deliberation. When constituted as an electoral college, it is officially called the States of Election.

The executive functions of the States are carried out using a committee system, formed of one Senior Committee, six Principal Committees and several other Committees Boards, Authorities and Commissions.

Legislation passed by the States is termed Laws (Loi), which take effect in the island by Order-in-Council. Minor and secondary legislation does not require the assent of the King-in-Council and are known as Ordinances (Ordonnances).

History
The legislature derives its name from the estates (French: états) of the Crown, the Church and the people from whom the assembly was originally summoned. The Jurats, representing the Crown, and the representatives of the Church of England were replaced in the constitutional reforms following the Second World War, when the office of Conseiller was introduced.

Until 2000, there were 33 Deputies elected with three year mandates, and 12 Conseillers representing the Bailiwick, serving terms of six years, with half being elected every three. The Conseillers were not originally directly elected by the people (although latterly directly elected by Bailiwick-wide vote), and the office was abolished before the General Election held that year. The 10 Douzaine representatives (representing parish authorities) were removed from the States in the 2004 constitutional reform and the total of elected deputies rose to the 45 total. In 2016 the number of deputies was reduced to 38.

Following a 2018 referendum, the whole island now forms a single constituency returning 38 members by plurality-at-large voting, beginning with the 2020 election.

Firsts
First female member of the States

 * Marie Randall

First female Deputy Chief Minister of Guernsey

 * Heidi Soulsby

Composition
The States of Deliberation consists of 38 People's Deputies, elected every four years from a single island-wide constituency by plurality-at-large voting, each voter being allowed to cast up to 38 votes. Before the 2020 election, the electoral system was multi-member districts by plurality block voting, in which each voter can vote for as many candidates as there are seats in the district. Two Alderney Deputies are appointed by the States of Alderney to represent Alderney's interest in matters delegated by Alderney to Guernsey under the 1948 Agreement. The Alderney Representatives are full members of the States of Deliberation but are unpaid, and are chosen from the 10 members of the States of Alderney after an Alderney-wide plebiscite.

There are also two non-voting members being the Law Officers of the Crown - the Procureur (Attorney General) and the Comptroller (Solicitor General) both appointed by the monarch. The Bailiff presides over the States.

Committee system
Guernsey's government operates on a committee system. A similar system used to be used in the neighbouring bailiwick, Jersey; however, this was abolished and replaced with a ministerial government in 2005.

The Senior Committee is known as the Policy & Resources Committee. It is the leading body and in charge of co-ordination of policy and other States work. It oversees the functioning of the States and also has responsibilities for external affairs. The President of the Committee is often termed "Chief Minister" by the local media, as they are perceived to represent the island's government, especially abroad. They are elected by States Members and hold a term of office expiring at the next general election. The next election will be in June 2025.

The remaining Principal Committees are listed below: The remaining committees, all chaired by States Members, are the Development and Planning Authority, Transport Licensing Authority, Overseas Aid & Development Commission, States' Trading Supervisory Board, States Assembly & Constitution Committee, Scrutiny Management Committee and the Civil Contingencies Authority.

Recent elections
The last general election was on 7 October 2020.

 * 2020 results
 * 2016 results
 * 2012 results
 * 2008 results
 * 2004 results

Current deputies and representatives
Constitution of the States of Deliberation :

Deputies • Gavin St Pier

• Heidi Soulsby

• Andrea Dudley-Owen

• Mark Helyar

• Peter Ferbrache

• John Gollop

• Peter Roffey

• Neil Inder

• Lyndon Trott

• Susan Aldwell

• Liam McKenna

• Yvonne Burford

• Al Brouard

• Steve Falla

• Simon Vermeulen

• Sasha Kazantseva-Miller

• Sam Haskins

• Charles Parkinson

• Rob Prow

• Chris Blin

• Lindsay De Sausmarez

• Jonathan Le Tocq

• Adrian Gabriel

• Victoria Oliver

• Aidan Matthews

• John Dyke

• Andrew Taylor

• Andy Cameron

• David Mahoney

• Nick Moakes

• Tina Bury

• Simon Fairclough

• David De Lisle

• Marc Leadbeater

• Lester Queripel

• Bob Murray

• Chris Le Tissier

• Carl Meerveld

Alderney representatives
 * Steve Roberts
 * Alex Snowdon

title: States of Guernsey


text:
Sacred Heart High School

Sacred Heart High School may refer to:

Canada

 * Sacred Heart High School (Ottawa), Ontario
 * Sacred Heart Catholic High School (Newmarket), Newmarket, Ontario
 * Sacred Heart Catholic High School (Walkerton), Walkerton, Ontario
 * Sacred Heart High School (Yorkton), Saskatchewan

India

 * Sacred Heart Boys High School, Mumbai
 * Sacred Heart High School (Changanacherry), Changanassery
 * Sacred Heart High School (Sidhpur), Dharamshala
 * Sacred Heart School, Golaghat
 * Sacred Heart High School (Hyderabad), a school in Hyderabad
 * Sacred Heart High School, Vashi, Navi Mumbai
 * Sacred Heart High School, Nala Sopara, Mumbai

Pakistan

 * Sacred Heart High School for Boys, Lahore
 * Sacred Heart High School for Girls, Lahore

United Kingdom

 * Sacred Heart Language College, England
 * Sacred Heart High School (London), England
 * Sacred Heart Catholic School, Camberwell
 * Sacred Heart Catholic High School (Newcastle upon Tyne)
 * Sacred Heart Catholic College or Sacred Heart Catholic High School, Crosby, Merseyside

United States

 * Sacred Heart High School (California), Los Angeles, California
 * Sacred Heart High School (Connecticut), Waterbury, Connecticut
 * Sacred Heart High School (Kansas), Salina, Kansas
 * Sacred Heart Academy (Louisville), Kentucky
 * Sacred Heart High School (Ville Platte, Louisiana)
 * Sacred Heart High School (Kingston, Massachusetts)
 * Sacred Heart High School (Roseville, Michigan)
 * Sacred Heart High School (East Grand Forks, Minnesota)
 * Sacred Heart High School (Hattiesburg, Mississippi)
 * Sacred Heart High School (Missouri), Sedalia, Missouri
 * Sacred Heart High School (Nebraska), Falls City, Nebraska
 * Sacred Heart High School (New Jersey), Vineland, New Jersey
 * Sacred Heart High School (Yonkers, New York)
 * Sacred Heart High School (Pennsylvania), Carbondale, Pennsylvania
 * Sacred Heart High School (Hallettsville, Texas)
 * Sacred Heart of Jesus High School, Jackson, Tennessee
 * Sacred Heart Catholic School (Muenster, Texas)

title: Sacred Heart High School


text:
Scout (train)

The Scout was one of the named passenger trains of the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway. It started as train Nos. 1 (westbound) & 10 (eastbound) between Chicago, Illinois and Los Angeles, California. Inaugurated on January 16, 1916, this "budget" heavyweight train had tourist sleeping cars with upper and lower berths, "chair" cars (coaches) and an open-end observation car.

The train was assigned Nos. 1 & 2 in 1920 and reverted to Nos. 1 & 10 a year later. In summer 1926 it left Chicago at 1115 and arrived Los Angeles at 0900 three days later, running via Ottawa Jct, Amarillo and Fullerton. In November 1939 it left at 2045 and arrived 0700, sixty hours on the same route except via Pasadena.

The Scout made its last run in 1948.

Timeline

 * January 19, 1916: The Scout commences operation.
 * 1920: The eastbound Scout is assigned No. 2, but becomes No. 10 the following year.
 * January 4, 1931: The Scout is discontinued during the Great Depression. Thereafter, economy service was provided by the Hopi, the Missionary, and the Navajo.
 * May 10, 1936: The "new" (renovated) Scout resumes. The westbound trip was completed in 60 hours, 15 minutes, while the eastbound schedule was reduced to 58 hours, 35 minutes.
 * 1948: The Scout is withdrawn as passengers prefer to use Santa Fe's streamlined trains.

Major stations
Major stations on the main itinerary to Los Angeles Union Station:
 * Chicago, Illinois
 * Kansas City, Missouri
 * Wichita, Kansas
 * Amarillo, Texas
 * Clovis, New Mexico, point from which sections diverted to Carlsbad Caverns
 * Belen, New Mexico, a short distance south of Albuquerque
 * Williams, Arizona, transfer point for bus connection to Grand Canyon
 * San Bernardino, California
 * Pasadena
 * Los Angeles

Oakland section major stations
West of Barstow, in eastern California, a second section departed northwest to the California Central Valley and Oakland:
 * Bakersfield
 * Fresno
 * Merced
 * Stockton
 * Richmond
 * Berkeley
 * Oakland

title: Scout (train)