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Talk:King's Indian Attack

KIA against semi-open defenses
I've read that the KIA is slightly stronger against the French Defence than some other semi-open defenses such as the Caro-Kann, when 1.e4 c6 2.d3 e5 is supposed to allow Black to equalize fairly easily. Is this correct? Perhaps someone who understands the theory could discuss this in the article. Quale 15:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Partially. The KIA is considered good against the French, E5, D5. Its considered slighty weaker to C5. I don't know about the Caro Kann though. It could be its just that I've only read pro-KIA openings. Falphin 00:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The main reason is that in the French defense, the c8-bishop will be an issue for Black. It cannot be developed at f5 or g4 as in other defenses, and the development at b7 or a6 is more passive. Time Dilation (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's supposed to be good against systems where Black plays ...e6, as the best defense seems to be one including e7-e5, clamping down on the d4 square. This is why Fischer liked d3 against (and only against!) Sicilians where Black played 2...e6. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chessmasterguy (talk • contribs) 23:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Is the figure wrong?
I'm not an expert on this stuff, but the description for this opening always starts with 1.e4. That means white's king pawn moves to e4, right? That's not shown in the figure for this article. Is that an error?

Figure isn't wrong
KIA came from hyper-modern play where the center is firstly not captured. with 1.e4 white goes directly to the center but that's not the idea of king's indian attack. KIA starts usually with 1.Sf3 or 1.g3. But about the great flexibility of KIA a lot of not-KIA-players starts with 1.e4 and if needed they change to KIA later on. So, if you are a true KIA-player you don't play 1.e4. The fígure shows the standard formation of KIA. Other Systems are possible (Sf3, g3, Lg2, 0-0, d3 or Sf3, g3, Lg2, 0-0, d3, e4 or Sf3, g3, Lg2, 0-0, d3, Sbd2, e4). Each system has to be analyzed for it's own. (Excuse me for my bad english)

Lucy Sky —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.24.253.44 (talk • contribs)

As the article indicates, e4 at some point (possibly, but not necessarily, on the first move) is characteristic of the KIA. In light of that, I think the pawn should be on e4, and have changed the diagram accordingly. Krakatoa 04:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

KIA - Passive?
It's interesting that the KIA is listed as a passive opening - I personally am much more familiar with a very aggressive line of the KIA that might play more like : 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 e6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.0-0 c5 5.d3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Be7 7.e4 8.e5 after which point white would eventually play Bf4, reinforcing the e5 pawn, and the attacking force of the opening is revealed - the e5 splits black's side of the board in half, preventing black from reinforcing his kingside. It's a tricky line to play because there's a lot of room for error but if played effectively it can give white a huge attacking advantage.

White can certainly build up a big attack, as shown in Fischer's games. I'm not sure that it's accurate to call the KIA "passive," but White's attack builds up more slowly than in some other lines. Krakatoa 04:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It's passive in that White's general set-up cannot be avoided by Black. Of course, the as the entry points out, middle-games are often quite violent given the asymmetry and spatial differences. KAB, 14 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.238.145 (talk) 18:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

White's plan?
The article says "White's plan is usually to either push the d and e pawns up a rank as the game progresses in order to bind the opponent." (emphasis added) Is White's plan to push the d pawn or the e pawn, or is one plan to pudh the d and e pawns, and there is another plan not mentioned? (I've never played this so I don't know.) Bubba73 (talk), 04:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a KIA player either. Since Black can set up his pawns and pieces many different ways, White's available plans vary a great deal according to what Black does. If Black plays a French setup, White often plays e5 followed by d4 and ultimately a king-side attack (as in Fischer-Miagmasuren). Obviously if Black has a pawn on e5 that's not an option, and White will usually move his N/f3 somewhere (h4, e1) then play f4, and possibly later f5, g4, etc. with a king-side attack (as Black commonly does in a regular King's Indian Defense). But if Black played a Saemisch-type setup and 0-0-0, White could end up attacking on the queen-side. See Bagirov-Gufeld, given at the end of the "King's Indian Defense" article. Krakatoa 06:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 * My point is that the article says that the plan is either to push the d and e pawns. Should that be d or e, or is pushing the pawns one plan of the "either"?  Bubba73 (talk), 14:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This is what the article says: "White's most common plan involves a central pawn push, e4-e5, leading to a central bind, kingside space, and concrete attacking chances on a kingside-castled black king. Black's resources – more queenside space for example – are not to be underestimated. In fact, this asymmetry often leads to violent middlegames and neatly constructed mating nets involving the sacrifice of multiple pieces." This is the most common plan-the E4-E5 push. Alternately, one can play C4, giving the game more of an English or Benoni flavour. The latter is quite sharp and generally outside the ability of club level players. KAB, 14 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.238.145 (talk) 19:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The biggest problem with the article is that it gives lines starting 1. Nf3 d5 as the main lines, but these days the KIA is most often played by 1. e4 players who want to avoid the over-analysed liens of the Sicilian and French defences. In those lines, and especially the Sicilian lines, Black often plays his d-pawn to d6. The e pawn can then stay where it is in a Dragon-like set-up, or play to e6 to support a later d5, or go to e5 to gain space and solidify the K-side. This way of starting leads to very different strategies than the Barcza system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.217.93.104 (talk) 11:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Is it really passive?.
Against e5 yes it seems to be a bit passive.At least not active as say for ruy lopez,However against others very solid and with active play white can get a good advantages.I have been playing KIA for the last 2 years.I found it very solid and simple to remember the opening.Especially for a short timed games it is a good advantage.If fisher and botvinnik played KIA there must be something on it.Also shall we call; KIA is one of the most solid openings or KIA is considered as a solid opening?.I would like to see comments on this matter from experienced players please. march 2007.

Yes. It is passive in that Black cannot prevent White from achieving the basic set-up. An opening can be both solid and passive. Notice that Botvinnik and Fischer used it against weak opponents whom they were certain they could outplay in the early middle-game. The chief advantage of the KIA is its simplicity and the avoidance of reams of theory, as well as the ability to steer the opening toward a middle-game where White has more space, more familiarity with the positions and tactics, and a board in which material has yet to be exchanged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.238.145 (talk) 19:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not strictly correct to say that Fischer "used this opening". He had a handful of games with it during his teens, but after it became clear that it was not ambitious enough as an opening he abandoned it completely. I would even go as far to say that it's a little demeaning to Fischer's stature and reputation to say that it was used "most famously" by him, when in reality it is only a club-level opening at best. If you go to chessgames.com and look at Fischer's profile it is not even mentioned in his "most used openings" entry (which is Ruy Lopez and other various setups by black against his routinely played 1.e4. Even against The French Defence, where the King's Indian Attack has the best chance of success, he only played it 4 times in his entire career, preferring the mainline 2.d4 (as opposed to 2.d3 as in the King's Indian Attack) which he played 67 times. A ratio of approximately 16:1. I think the reason it is associated with him is his famous win against Myagmarsuren, but this is one of the 4 times he used it out of 71 games vs. the French Defence. In truth he has some far more brilliant games against the mainline French, such as his dismantling of the Winawer against Bent Larsen in the 1971 Candidate's Tournament. So, to summarise: this really should be changed. It's nice to have the big name association with an opening but in this case it is inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.227.172 (talk) 21:13, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

KIA too technical
Ok, so this is a chess opening. What more can you tell me about it than strategy that is unfathomably to me? What about the origins of the name? Who else uses it? Did Bobby Fischer's use of it have any kind of impact on the chess playing world? Just an article on strategy may be many things, but it does reduce the value of this article. FrozenPurpleCube 05:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Ignore this guy. He is now gone.  Bubba73 (talk), 03:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Extra tempo v's Pawn structure
"The KIA is a mirror image of the setup adopted by Black in the King's Indian Defense. Yet, because of White's extra tempo, the nature of the subsequent play is often different from that of a typical King's Indian Defence." This is POV but I believe the above is incorrect, the reason subsequent play is often different is because of the pawn structure adopted by Black is unlikely to be those adopted by White playing against the KID. ChessCreator (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The original article I wrote referenced the different strategies and concomitant pawn structures given the extra tempo. The point is that in a standard KID giving Black an extra tempo would be devastating for White. This isn't POV. It is truth. KAB, 2607 ELO, 14 May 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.238.145 (talk) 18:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, what you're saying is true, but it is the extra tempo white has that results in the different pawn structure in comparison to the KID. So the article isn't really wrong. By the way, on a general note, why is this opening listed as a favourite of Bobby Fischer's? On chessgames.com he has only two games with this opening. Admittedly, one of them is a brilliant one, but still, it was by no means one of his favourites, he was much more inclined to the ruy lopez etc ... I think that statement should be taken out of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.170.246 (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

1.Nf3
Links on wiki refer to 1. Nf3 as the Reti opening(which is somewhat misleading). The Reti opening says it's also called 'King's Indian Attack'(which is also misleading). Seems the idea of what 1. Nf3 is to be called wants sorting out. It would be worth checking what 'The Oxford Companion to Chess' says although I suspect it will sidestep the question of what to call 1. Nf3. SunCreator (talk) 15:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

NF3--It's fluid. Hence 1. NF3 can end up being a KIA, a Queen's Pawn game, the Reti, the Nimzo Larsen, or any other closed opening. You can't "sort out" what it is until the game progresses. KAB, 14 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.238.145 (talk) 18:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

King's Indian Attack vs Barcza System
The article suggests at various points that the King's Indian Attack and the Barcza System are interchangable names for the same opening.

However, I'd suggest that that is not the case and that reference to (say) Hooper & Whyld, or to any of the many books on the King's Indian Attack, would suggest that the term KIA refers specifically to the plan of Nf3/g3/Bg2/d3/Nbd2/e4 (sometimes achieved via e4/d3/Nbd2/etc), whereas the term Barcza System refers only to 1.Nf3 2.g3 (and usually 3.Bg2 4.0-0) after which any number of different systems might be played, only one of which is the King's Indian Attack.

For example, in the section in this article titled 'Uses', it states that the KIA can transpose to the Reti, Catalan, English or Nimzo-Larsen, but that is really only true of the Barcza System (the original purpose of which was that it was a transpositional tool, giving White the choice between those various options depending on Black's set-up ).

Similarly the lead para says 'The KIA, or Barcza System...' and then immediately afterwards defines the full compliment of characteristic moves of the King's Indian Attack, and not just the characteristic moves of the Barcza System.

Also, the section here on 'Barcza System' is simply a collection of very short lines going no further than move 3. It would be far better, I suspect, if this was removed and (as I recently suggested on the London System page) replaced with a series of descriptions of possible set-ups by Black when facing the KIA - thus extending the analysis at least out towards moves 5, 6 or 7.

I'd suggest that the main variations of the King's Indian Attack (following the treatment usually given in the various books about the opening) are as follows:

vs either the 1.e4 or 1.Nf3 move orders

Franco-Sicilian: Black plays e6/c5/d5 and various constellations of minor pieces (but the Bc8 remains inside the pawn chain).

Other Sicilian systems: Black plays c5/d6 and various constellations of minor pieces.

Caro-Kann: c6/d5 and usually e5.

vs the 1.Nf3 move order

Reversed King's Indian Defence: d5/c5/e5/Nc6/Nf6 and various options for the bishops (including Bg7).

Reversed London System: d5/Bf5/Nf6/e6 etc.

Keres System: d5/Bg4/etc (basically a reversed Torre Attack).

I'd also suggest that in the section comparing the KIA to the KID ('Characteristics') it's probably worth noting that the KIA is typically played against set-ups by Black that involve ...e6. The comparable set-ups by White vs the KID (i.e. involving e3) aren't considered to be theoretically important, so in most lines of the KIA White is effectively a move up in a line already considered suboptimal for the opponent. That doesn't mean that White already has a significant advantage, but it is essentially the argument for the use of the KIA (going back to the 1950's when it first became common, as an offshoot of the widespread use of the KID).

Any thoughts on any of the above? Axad12 (talk) 13:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Rewrite
I've rewritten most of the article, primarily along the lines envisaged in the previous note. The major changes are:

Removal of references to the Barcza System.

Addition of some historical context.

Addition of names of prominent practitioners.

Addition of some (fairly brief) comments on White's characteristic plan of attack.

Addition of various typical lines, some showing transpositional possibilities between 1.e4 and 1.Nf3 move orders, and some showing lines that can only arise via 1.Nf3.

If these changes meet with general approval I will add further references, text links, etc. (Or if anyone else fancies doing that then please go ahead).

The previous article was quite superficial, so hopefully these will be seen as positive steps.

Any comments pro or con welcomed. Axad12 (talk) 05:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

 * why remove refereces to Barcza Opening? Mateussf (talk) 17:50, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, as per the note above titled 'King's Indian Attack vs Barcza System', these are two different things. Thus, since this article is about the King's Indian Attack, no reference to the Barzca System is necessary. Hopefully this clarifies. Axad12 (talk) 18:17, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Barcza System now has its own page and no longer re-directs here. Also, a quote from Yasser Seirawan is included in the references on that page to demonstrate that the Barzca System and King's Indian Attack are different openings. 'Barcza Opening' now re-directs to 'Barcza System'. Axad12 (talk) 22:34, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Bobby Fischer and the King's Indian Attack
If there’s one player who is regularly mentioned as a practitioner of the KIA then it’s Bobby Fischer (for proof of which refer to the back of any book or dvd on the KIA, or to any YouTube video about this opening.).

However, back in 2014, commenting on a previous version of the page here on the KIA, user 86.41.227.172 objected to this association, saying:

“It's not strictly correct to say that Fischer ‘used this opening’. He had a handful of games with it during his teens, but after it became clear that it was not ambitious enough as an opening he abandoned it completely. I would even go as far to say that it's a little demeaning to Fischer's stature and reputation to say that it was used ‘most famously’ by him, when in reality it is only a club-level opening at best.” Also “The association [between Fischer and the KIA] really should be changed [on the Wikipedia page]. It's nice to have the big-name association with an opening but in this case it is inappropriate”.

Since this comment went uncorrected at the time, I felt it might be useful to revisit the issue.

Reference to ‘Bobby Fischer: Complete Games’ (Karsten Muller, 2009) reveals the following details…

For the purposes of clarity, all references to the KIA here relate to games involving e4/d3/g3/Nf3 etc by whatever move order. (Actually, I think there may be one instance where Fischer plays the KIA vs the Caro-Kann where he omits g3).

Fischer played the KIA in 17 tournament or match games between 1956 and 1958 (Fischer was approx 13-15 years old during this period). The games usually start 1.Nf3. The tournaments include some of the strongest in the US at the time (US Open, US Championship, Rosenwald Trophy) and other regional tournaments with master level participation (e.g. New Western Open, New Jersey Open, etc.). This was, of course, the period when Fischer improved rapidly and it culminated in his first US championship title (the 1957/8 tournament, where he used the KIA in 2 of his 7 games as White). It’s fair to say that, by and large, Fischer was using the KIA vs the lesser lights in these tournaments. (When playing higher calibre opponents such as Reshevsky, Saidy and Bisguier, Fischer used the Open Sicilian and the French with 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3.)

The table of Fischer’s results on p.399 of Muller suggests that Fischer played c.128 tournament/match games during this period, so probably around 64 games as White. For 17 of these c.64 games to have been KIA’s is clearly a significant percentage. An impression of the importance of the KIA to Fischer’s early repertoire can be gained from Fischer’s comment in game 1 of ‘My 60 Memorable Games’ (Fischer vs Sherwin, 1957) where he says of the KIA ‘This used to be my favourite’.

There is then a break of circa 8 years when Fischer only plays the occasional KIA in simuls (irrelevant for our purposes) before returning to the KIA on 11 occasions between 1966 and 1970, including at the Manila and Siegen Olympiads, at the Interzonals at Sousse and Palma de Mallorca, and at very strong tournaments such as the Piatigorsky Cup, Rovinj/Zagreb 1970 and Buenos Aires 1970. Five of these 11 games were Caro-Kanns, which the Russians were playing vs Fischer with some regularity at this time as it seems they considered it to be his Achilles heel. It is still true that Fischer was using the KIA mainly vs lesser lights during this period, but the opponents do also include players of the calibre of Ivkov, Hubner and Hort.

After 1970, Fischer’s career consists of the series of candidates matches and the World Championship match vs Spassky. In these matches he didn't use the KIA (which is unsurprising, given his very strong preference for playing Open Sicilians vs high level opposition).

Based on all of the above, I’d suggest that this record doesn’t represent ‘a handful of games […] during his teens’ before ‘he abandoned it completely’. In addition, it is clearly untrue that Fischer considered the KIA to be ‘a club-level opening at best’ or that he would have considered any association with it to be ‘demeaning to his stature and reputation’. The association between Fischer and the KIA seems fairly strong, in terms of it being a reliable workhorse that he used through much of his career, via 1.Nf3 in the early years and 1.e4 in his later career, and against a variety of Black responses and in a variety of tournament situations.

User 86.41.227.172 also states that the KIA "is not even mentioned in [Fischer's] 'Most Used Openings' entry" in his profile on Chessgames.com. The reason for that is because the info box on Chessgames.com only includes the names of openings ('Sicilian', 'French', 'Caro-Kann', etc) rather than the names of subvariations - although even it did go down to subvariation level the KIA would still probably lose out due to the various different transpositional routes through which it can arise.

The 28 Fischer games in the KIA compare rather well to other openings that are (rightly or wrongly) associated with Fischer, e.g. the Two Knights Caro-Kann (15 games in Muller), the Exchange Ruy Lopez (11 games on chesstempo.com, out of c.90 occasions when Fischer faced 3…a6), and the Fischer-Sozin Attack vs the Najdorf (his preferred response to the Najdorf, but still only about 20 games in all). If we compare these figures to an opening very closely associated with Fischer, the Najdorf Sicilian as Black, Fischer played the Najdorf in about 64 games across his tournament/match career according to Muller (the figure is rather higher if you include simuls etc).

Hopefully this note puts to bed any doubts on whether the association between Fischer and the KIA is valid. Axad12 (talk) 07:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Barcza Opening
Barcza Opening redirects here, but the article does not mention this name. Is it a synonym? A variant? It should be specified. Mateussf (talk) 17:48, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

 * As per previous notes, the KIA and Barcza System are two different things. The Barcza System should not be redirecting to this page. Axad12 (talk) 18:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have now removed the re-directs from Barcza Opening and Barcza System to this page. Axad12 (talk) 19:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've replaced the re-direct on the 'Barcza System' page with some explanatory text about the Barcza System. To be honest I'm not sure that there is very much to say about it, as it's really just a transpositional technique to reach a Reti, KIA, Hippo or Catalan. As far as I can see, Barcza usually employed it to reach what what now be considered a Reti. However, as per previous notes, the Barcza System is not the same as the King's Indian Attack and the re-direct was clearly in error. Axad12 (talk) 21:13, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:King's Indian Attack


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shawnee Mission East I.B.

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. — J I P | Talk 08:48, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Shawnee Mission East I.B.
Vanity page for several students in the International Baccalaureate program at a high school in the Kansas City area. As this does not differ from the IB program anywhere else in the world, I don't see this ever becoming a reasonable article, so I have put it here instead of cleanup. ESkog 15:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - nn CLW 15:29, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * September 30th was an exceptionally busy AfD day. So this debate among several got almost no attention. Relisting in hope of some tender, loving debate this time around. -Splash talk 00:00, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete IBassassinatin'. That's cute. But clearly vanity and non-encyclopedic. Justin Bacon 00:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per all of the above. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 00:32, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete If this H.S. has an article, move this content there. --Rogerd 01:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete More suitable for a blog. Brisvegas 04:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete or Userfy if the creator wants it (the creater does have an account). This is probably not appropriate in its current state.  However, if the author would like to add something encyclopedic to Shawnee Mission School District about the program, that would be great! --best, kevin  · · · Kzollman | Talk · · · 04:49, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete It doesn't make much sense to lump the schools together in a district article, but have a separate article for a single (non-unique) program in the HS. Plus, the content is mainly just personal experiences, which are not of interest to others, but more importantly, not verifiable by others.   --rob 05:21, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Deryck Chan

 * ''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a request for adminship that did not succeed. Please do not modify it.

Deryck Chan
[ Vote here]  (15/10/11) ending 15:12 October 7 (UTC)

– Deryck has been with us actively since May of this year, first as Deryckchan, and presently as Deryck Chan. He has over 2600 edits between the two accounts, with edits spread out among the namespace. He is involved in editing and writing Hong Kong related articles and has contributed several FAs already. In addition, he has also helped me maintain WP:MIND. I feel that this is a worthy Wikipedian who deserves a mop and bucket. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | WS 15:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:
 * I accept the nomination as a candidate for adminship. De ryc  k C.  15:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Support
 * 1) Guess I'll have to, eh? Flcelloguy | A note?  | Desk |  WS 15:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Support CambridgeBayWeather 16:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Sure, why not? SchmuckyTheCat 16:43, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. Although I've only come across him via WP:MIND, rather than on articles, I've seen nothing that suggests to me he shouldn't be an admin. KeithD (talk) 16:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. When I've come accross him, he seems to be level-headed and a good editor. Tito xd 17:57, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Strong Support His help with me on Barnstars on Wikipedia was above and beyond the call of duty. I'm going to vote for him 10 times, but you don't have to count the last 9. ;-) Karmafist 18:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) →Jo urna list  >>talk<<  18:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) Bart133 (t) 22:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 9) Support - dedicated to the project. No reason in my mind that he wouldn't make a good admin. --Cel e stianpower hablamé 22:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 10) extreme support--Exir KamalabadiEsperanza 01:05, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 11) Strong support. He is very active and dedicated. --Microtony 1:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 12) Pcb21| Pete 19:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 13) Merovingian (t) (c) 05:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 14) Extreme Heterosexualist(sic) support. Did stupid things once in a while, but he has always proven himself humble enough to apologize and learn from them. Has shown himself willing to listen to people's concerns rather than behaving stubbornly, which IMHO should be the #1 criterion for adminship. Borisblue 04:34, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 15) Cooperative. Andre ( talk ) 03:09, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Oppose
 * 1) Oppose I just don't believe this person would be a good admin, from what I've seen. Private Butcher 18:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose The "Support Me" signature smacks of campaigning, which I find distateful. --Rogerd 07:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) * Oppose. Might be willing to reconsider if user removes RfA link from his signature, and stops using transcluded templates as a signature- the preferences page explicitly warns not to do this, and it is an easy vandalism target. Ral  315   WS  20:12, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Moved to neutral.
 * 1) Oppose I generally hate to do this but all this campaigning isn't a good use of judgment in my opinion, putting so much time in on WP:MIND when there's so many backlogs concerns me. I don't see much RC patrol/vandal fighting...I guess I'd like to see a broader particapation. Great energy and very positive though! Rx StrangeLove 23:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * To Ral315, Kelly, Rob and all others who oppose my use of transcluding signatures: that signature was originally an idea of Omegatron and others who thought my HTML-Wikimarkup blended signature was too hasty to be seen in source codes. Now I've changed them to the raw code form and removed all campaigning text. Hope you'll reconsider your vote. De ryc  k C.  10:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Use a less colourful and less intricate signature if people are going to complain. There again, the code for your signature doesn't appear to be to bad; I've seen far longer. Rob Church Talk 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. I strongly dislike campaigning for adminship — an editor that has earned the trust of the community and edited enough for the Wikipedia community to be aware of him or her should be able to pass RfA without campaigning, and choosing to campaign when it should be unnecessary shows poor judgment (actually, it was the user's campaigning that brought me to this vote page). Additionally, the points brought up by the neutral and other opposing users give me further doubts about this request. —Lowellian (reply) 23:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Just little curiousity: Where did you find me campaigning? De ryc  k C.  16:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Originally, in the signature. Other voters here have pointed out other places. —Lowellian (reply) 19:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose still WAAAAAY too green in the political/user interaction aspect of the job of administrator. I dont know if this comes from his non-native use of the english language, or perhaps just inexperience, in either case I dont feel this is the appropriate time to promote him... perhaps in a few months.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 07:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose. I like your enthusiasm, but think it's a little too early.  You seem to act before reading the guidelines on what you're doing, like with those FAC oppose votes that people have mentioned, and I think that campaigning for support votes this blatantly was another example of this.  I understand that you don't repeat your mistakes once they're pointed out, and there's plenty in your favour - eg going out of your way to welcome new people - but I'd rather you spent a few more months on here before becoming an admin.  CTOAGN 19:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose for reasons already stated.  I don't oppose campaigning, but I don't like these complicated signatures.  PedanticallySpeaking 17:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Please refer to my comments on the user's talk page. JuntungWu 11:25, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Oppose. I can't say it better than was said by Juntung. The user's talk page is also revealing with it's quid pro quo dialogue with another admin candidate. --hydnjo talk 18:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * What should I do then? Refuse to answer him? Just because he's another RfA candidate and talking about the RfA? De ryc  k C.  17:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "The best way to give thanks is, of course, to vote back on my RfA ^^" is, in my opinion, campaigning. You don't see it that way so I will give you the benefit of doubt and strike my comment. --hydnjo talk 18:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * 1) Oppose I don't like the idea of campaigning. This isn't an election. Ac  e  tic  ' Acid  08:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Neutral
 * Neutral - until questions are answered. I would just not bother with voting yet but seeing as the nominated voted himself, we can be sure that he has seen the page. --Cel e stianpower hablamé 16:04, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Switch to support. --Cel e stianpower hablamé 22:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. De ryc  k C.  01:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Neutral for now - I think he just needs a couple more months' seasoning and showing consistent cluefulness. I think his dedication to the project is obvious - David Gerard 16:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Neutral - Difficult candidate to evaluate - most of the edits in the past 500 are all in the mind benders... which while neat doesn't help me evaluate at all. Also doesn't use edit summaries much. Ryan Norton T 20:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * A little reply: You may choose "(main)" in the namespace drop-down to evaluate my work on articles. That page can actually reflect my work to the wikipedia according to your criteria. De ryc  k C.  02:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)`
 * 1) Neutral - needs more variety on articles he edits. aOnly 528 distinct pages is not enough IMO. Once he gets up in that counter, I will be happy to support. ≈ jossi ≈ 20:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Neutral for the time being. I can see the overwhelming effort made by Deryck, particularly in Hong Kong- and science-related articles, and he's indeed a gung-ho wikipedian. But sometimes this young man might be too reckless in communicating with other contributors (maybe he should mind his language every now and then). I'll wait and see, trying to make my vote later on. Good luck! ;-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 10:20, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Neutral for now, would be happy to support in a few months barring further incidents.  Ral  315   WS  13:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose . I was trying to remember why I had such a negative impression of Deryck, and then it occured to me that it originated with this and similar FAC edits he made in June (which he mentions in his answer to question 3).  Additionally, voting for yourself doesn't show an ideal understanding of process, and despite a massive amount of Wikipedia edits, the total is misleading since the majority of them are connected with Wikipedia:Mind Benders, and he rarely seems to enter the really contentious areas.  His contributions to Wikipedia:FAC recently seem obsessed with pictures only, and he rarely uses edit summaries.  His edits also indicated some difficulty with English, and although this isn't a reason in and of itself to oppose, it could pose problems as an admin.  If this sounds harsh, I should offset it by saying that I believe he's a good editor, but that I just can't trust him with adminship at this point in time.  I'm also curious as to an example of an article that he thinks was "protected unreasonably". --Scimitar parley 16:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * First, about the voting-for-myself problem, I must say sorry, for it is quite impossible for me to understand an unwritten social custom before I get trapped by it. Second, a little reply for the "protected unreasonably" question. The article Kowloon Tong (MTR) was protected without any discussion or given reason from early June to September. Third, about the "no contentious edit" question. Rubidium hydroxide and Rubidium oxide are 2 examples of articles written completely by myself in terms of content. I understand the fact that I gave a really negative impression to you and no matter what I do you will not turn to support. What I'm doing with this reply is, simply, to clarify your concerns for other potential voters. De ryc  k C.  16:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Not that negative an impression. If I was so close-minded as to be unwilling to change my vote after reasoned discussion with a good editor, I wouldn't be much of an admin myself, would I?  Would you be willing to commit to using edit summaries in future?--Scimitar parley 18:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. May I ask a little question: Do I need to put an edit summary when I edit my own user page or use the "new section" button in talk pages? (In the latter you just can't have a summary). De ryc  k C.  01:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have been using edit summaries a lot since I became an admin, because I committed to doing so during my adminship discussion. I haven't been consistently using summaries in my own user pages, however. When you use the new section button, the edit summary doubles as "Subject/headline" field, so it's hard to avoid giving a summary there. I have some javascript which forces me into using edit summaries except on my user pages - let me know if you'd like to try it. Lupin|talk|popups 15:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Scimitar, I think its bad form that you haul up Deryck Chan for his English. I see nothing wrong with his english, and I personally, can very well understand users who have rated themselves with "en-1" in commons:. Secondly, I think its a bit harsh to single Deryck for a single edit which happened in June. He was probably new to FAC then, he's learnt from his mistakes. I remember that edit very well, and let me assure you he hasn't repeated it in FAC ever since. =Nichalp «Talk»=  09:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid if I've come across harsher than I intended. The edit in June was the reason I remembered Deryck, and I merely noted his English, which is certainly passable, and I meant no offense by.  Following Deryck's assurance that he'd use edit summaries, I've switched to neutral, as I don't feel strongly enough to oppose at this point.  That said, I just don't know how Deryck would respond in potential conflicts, so I'm not confident enough to make this an outright support, either.  I hope I've caused no offense.--Scimitar parley 14:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Also thanks to God who showed you the truth about me. De ryc  k C.  16:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. Use of transcluded signature is Major Bad Mojo.  If editor replaces signature, will reconsider. Kelly Martin 20:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Editor has stopped transcluding signature; however, still have concerns about campaigning.  Neutral.  Kelly Martin 13:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Neutral this time as per the reasons cited above, but mostly due to campaigning.  Hall Monitor 19:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Neutral. Only 31.5% of his edits are to articles; even if you add Talk pages in the article namespace, that only brings it up to 39%. The number of edits shows his dedication to Wikipedia, but it concerns me that he puts more effort into discussing policy than editing articles. Also, the number of distinct pages he's edited is currently only at 541 - considering the number of edits he's made to non-article pages, it seems like the number of actual Wikipedia articles he's touched is probably very low. - Brian Kendig 17:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose - transcluding signatures is a drain on the system. Campaigning in that signature is not good form. Voting for yourself is not good form, either. Rob Church Talk 20:23, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see him going and removing all instances of that damn transclusion everywhere to reduce the drain on the system further. However, I won't advise it because you'll bugger up the page caching and further drain the system. If possible, try to reduce any instances of this that you come across. Rob Church Talk 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Hope you may clarify: any instances of what? De ryc  k C.  16:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I referred to instances of your template signature, which will still be lurking about the place. Vote changed to neutral, however, after a lot of reflection and consideration of the bigger picture. Rob Church Talk 17:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Neutral. Per reasons stated above. Would possibly support in a few months. Carbonite | Talk 13:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments
 * In addition to WP:MIND, I'm also an ad-hoc administrator in WP:HKCOTW and WP:SCOTW. I also contribute massively to chemistry related articles besides Hong Kong related ones (see impurity and sexual reproduction, for example). De ryc  k C.  02:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I find it a little distasteful that his user page says: Deryck for Admin!!!! Go and support me at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Deryck Chan!!! Not "please have a look at what I've done and give your opinion of me," but "go and support me!"
 * Thanks for your opinion. I will change the wordings as you find that distrateful. Just a little fact: I copied the approximate design from the notice when Essjay and Redwolf24 were on RfA and RfB. De ryc  k C.  16:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Wording changed from "Go and support me" to "Come and cast a vote". De ryc  k C.  16:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Deryck's last words in this RfA: The RfA is about to close now, and I'm not sure if I'll be promoted (60% support rate, certain distance lower than the 75% conventional margin). However, no matter what'll be the result, I'll try to serve the community as hard as I can in the future. If I succeed, I'll take all your opinions and try to improve myself in building relationships. If I fail, I'll take this as an experience and have maybe one or two months of work, and come back in a brand new face which will not offend anybody. I hope everybody enjoyed discussing about my RfA and... Relax now! De ryc  k C.  17:05, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate

 * From the pillbox I inquire:

1.The answer to Q3 indicates you learned something (swell!) about how the project works from an incident. Do you really think it's to the projects advantage to let "the other side keep their edits" if it means possible POV or falsehoods in articles?
 * I am sure about that, because only if both sides have considerable points and arguments in a debate will neither side tend to give up. Therefore, to compare between accepting one side's opinions or keeping the debate fiercely unconcluded, the former should be preferred as this brings both reading conveniece to readers of the articles and peace to the editors. De ryc  k C.  17:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

2.How would you act, as an admin, to help defuse situations between other editors?
 * I'll point out some neutral facts about the issue and draw the dispute to concensus with the support of these facts. (Thanks Scimitar for pointing out these questions.) De ryc  k C.  17:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:
 * 1. What sysop chores, if any, would you anticipate helping with? (Please read the page about administrators and the administrators' reading list.)
 * A: I'll anticipate to help fighting vandalism. In addition, I will try to unprotect pages which have been protected unreasonably for a long time.
 * 2. Of your articles or contributions to Wikipedia, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
 * A: I think Sun Yat-sen is my most-pleased contribution to Wikipedia. 2 months ago, I spot a project from another user (Borisblue) ,who doesn't know Chinese, is hiring a Cantonese man to improve this biography. I volunteered, and eventually, the article was expanded, split into sections, given more and more contexts, and later on even exploded out a section into another separate article! Per the advice of the Boris, I put the article onto WP:PR and later WP:FAC. In the FAC, many objections were raised and a big number of improvements were made. Now, the article is a featured article which is going to appear on the Main Page on 8 October. This article pleased me so much because this is the FA which I put the most amound of time and efforts into. It really pleased me much.
 * 3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
 * A: It was in June when I first encountered an FAC of the article Hong Kong. As it was the first FAC that I did anything with, I simply didn't know the rules and made tens of people angry. Hereby, I apologize for all those faults I made 3 months ago, and hope those I've made angry in June can support me by observing the fact that I've personally successfully nominated 2 articles into FA which is a sign showing I understand the rules now. In the end, with the help of a certain number of helpful users who explained me with all those rules, I gradually learnt to observe the rules. These days, edit conflicts seldom reach me anymore, but in case it does, I'll convert wars on article namespace to debates on talk namespace and seek for concensus. If a concensus is really unreachable, I can give up my own opinions and let the other side keep their edits.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page.


title: Talk:3-manifold


text:
Rosa Mayreder

Rosa Mayreder (née Obermeyer; 30 November 1858, in Vienna – 19 January 1938, in Vienna) was an Austrian freethinker, author, painter, musician and feminist. She was the daughter of Marie and Franz Arnold Obermayer who was a wealthy restaurant operator and barkeeper.

Rosa had twelve brothers and sisters and although her conservative father did not believe in the formal education of girls he allowed her to participate in the Greek and Latin lessons of one of her brothers. She also received private instruction in French, painting and the piano.

Life and marriage
Rosa Obermeyer was born on 30 November 1858. Her father was Franz Arnold Obermayer, who was the owner of a prosperous tavern. Accounts of Mayreder's family, social atmosphere, and insights to her personality are recorded in a series of diary entries, the first of which is dated 28 April 1873; she was fourteen at the time. Her autobiographical diary entries covered a range of topics from her every-day life to her feelings on war.

Growing up, Mayreder lived in a large household and received an education that was typical of the well-off. Mayreder was taught to play the piano, sing, speak French, and draw by private tutors. However, Mayreder was jealous that her less academically inclined brothers were given more educational opportunities. Later, the impact of this schooling would become evident, as Mayreder would revolt against the way girls were educated among the middle class. She criticized the sexual double standard and prostitution. At seventy, in 1928, she was recognized as an honorary citizen in Vienna. One such instance of rebellion was her decision to never wear a corset when she turned eighteen. This act of defiance was not only a social statement, but a personal dig against her mother, who believed it was a woman's duty to derive her sense of self from her husband and sons.

As she grew into adulthood, Mayreder was exposed to a plethora of artists, writers, and philosophers. One of the most influential activities on Mayreder's future were her frequent meetings with Josef Storck, Wiener Kunstgewebeschule, Rudolf von Waldheim, Friedrich Eckstein, and her brothers Karl, Julius, and Rudolf. Additionally, the writings of Nietzsche, Goethe, and Kant had a significant influence on her as well. Her exposure to people such as these allowed Mayreder to come in contact with those who acknowledged the discrepancies between men and women in society and encouraged her to pursue involvement in the sociological issues she believed in.

In 1881 Rosa married the architect Karl Mayreder, who later became rector of the technical university in Vienna. The marriage was harmonious but remained childless. In 1883 Rosa had an abortion and she also had two affairs, which she describes in detail in her diaries. Karl suffered repeated depressions from 1912 until his death in 1935.

Feminism, writing, and art
Rosa Mayreder was a radical critic of the patriarchal structures of the society as well as a critic of feminism. Throughout her adult life, Rosa Mayreder expressed her frustration with the lack of authentic expression for women throughout history. A good deal of her critiques of the society aimed at reforming the imbalance between men and women and expanding the roles which women could take up and be engaged in more generally. Mayreder considered fighting for the rights of women to be her calling in life, and she was aware that her attempts at fighting the status quo were ground-breaking for her time. While she was accused of being "bluestocking," or misbehaved, she continued to openly criticize her environment.

Mayreder published two influential works, one being Zur Kritik der Weiblichkeit (To Critics of Femininity) in 1905 (later published in English as A Survey of the Woman Problem in 1912). This was a collection of essays that refuted quotes from "accepted" philosophers and established authoritative support, a style of writing that was inspired by the ideals of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Her inspiration for writing A Survey of the Women Problem steamed from her belief that the basis of the women's movement was caused by three issues: economic, social, and ethical-psychological sources. Mayreder's second influential publication was Geschlecht und Kultur (Sex and Culture) (1923). The latter work, which criticized the double standard and discrimination against women, was translated into English. She also published an autobiography, Das Haus in der Landskrongasse.

During World War I Mayreder published articles and reports in which she advocated a pacifist approach in various media outlets, including Neues Frauenleben and Internationale Rundschau.

In addition to writing, Mayreder took a liking for painting and became the first woman admitted to the Aquarellist club. In 1981, one of her watercolors was accepted as an exhibition at the annual Viennese Kunstlerhaus (House of Artists). Furthermore, Mayreder founded the Kunstchule for Frauen und Madchen (Art School for Girls and Women) with Olga Prager, Marriane Hainisch, and Karl Federn.

Rosa Mayreder was one of the founding members of the General Austrian Women's Association. She met Rudolf Steiner (with whom she entered into a long and extensive correspondence) through women's rights campaigner Marie Lang. She also met Hugo Wolf and Friedrich Eckstein. Rosa formed a warm friendship with Wolf and developed one of her stories as the libretto for his opera Der Corregidor, which was first performed in Mannheim in 1896. During these years she published her first novel Aus meiner Jugend (From My Youth). It was also in Lang's circle that Rosa met Marianne Hainisch with whom she worked in the Austrian women's association "Allgemeiner Österreichischer Frauenverein", which was formed in 1902.

Rosa Mayreder was the only female founding member of the Sociological Association of Vienna which was initiated in 1907. During World War I Mayreder engaged in the peace movement and became in 1919 the chairman of the "Internationale Frauenliga für Frieden und Freiheit" (International Women's League for Peace and Liberty, IFFF).

Mayreder was an influence on Swedish literary critic Klara Johanson.

Rosa Mayreder and Nietzsche’s philosophy
In her early publications on various social issues such as feminism and public health, Mayreder was enthusiastically appreciative of the work of Nietzsche. In her later writings in the late 1920s, Mayreder became more critical of Nietzsche's writings as well as the excesses of the emerging cult around Nietzsche's philosophy; however, she did not abandon her overall appreciation of Nietzsche.

Books
Source:

 * A Survey of the Woman Problem. New York, George H. Doran Compagny (1913). Trans. of Zur Kritik der Weiblichkeit (1905)
 * Askese Und Erotik (Asceticism and Eroticism)
 * Idole (Idol)

title: Rosa Mayreder


text:
File:MarcusMiller-M2.jpg

Summary
Cover of the Marcus Miller album M².

Licensing
Source: https://www.amazon.com/

title: File:MarcusMiller-M2.jpg


text:
File:MarcusMiller-MarcusMiller.jpg

Summary
Cover of the Marcus Miller album Marcus Miller.

Licensing
Source: https://www.amazon.com/

title: File:MarcusMiller-MarcusMiller.jpg


text: User talk:66.210.240.250

title: User talk:66.210.240.250


text:
File:MarcusMiller-SilverRain.jpg

Summary
Cover of the Marcus Miller album Silver Rain.

Licensing
Source: https://www.amazon.com/

title: File:MarcusMiller-SilverRain.jpg


text:
File:MarcusMiller-TheSunDontLie.jpg

Summary
Cover of the Marcus Miller album The Sun Don't Lie.

Licensing
Source: https://www.amazon.com/

title: File:MarcusMiller-TheSunDontLie.jpg


text:
Talk:DAV Public School

This is a pretty useless article, almost illegible.
 * I've tried to clean it up a bit by taking out the NPOV comments, but I can't find much info online to add. There are several different "DAV Public School"s in India, which doesn't help matters. -Colin Kimbrell 17:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I am unable to find a link which will take me to the home page of the DAV School trust organization. It almost seems that anyone can create a website with DAV school appended to it.

title: Talk:DAV Public School


text:
Talk:The Hungry Man

Article title
Thsi should be at The Hungry Man (inital caps) as it is a book title. I will move it as soon as the AfD is over, assuming it is kept. DES (talk) 16:27, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion debate
This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splash talk 22:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

prod, April 2007
prod removed, as this article as previously survived an AfD, and is thus not eligle for prod - see WP:PROD. --RedHillian 04:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Hungry Man


text: User talk:59.167.82.132

title: User talk:59.167.82.132


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The hungry man

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. -Splash talk 22:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

The hungry man
nn. about a book which doesn't seem to have ISBN. 202.156.6.60 15:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Hello. I just wrote this page and did not know it should include the ISBN. The Hungry Man: ISBN 9789743452116; There You Go! ISBN 9789749286302. I think both books are published in Thailand by Hungry Man Books (?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.232.8.1 (talk • contribs) 10:23 ET, 30 September 2005

 * Keep The book is self published, but it seems that the author is known in the international aid community, aand so is the book to soem extent. I ahve added proper links to two online reveiws, and the ISBN to the article. DES (talk) 16:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and Move to The Hungry Man for proper capitalization, I think. >:  Roby Wayne  Talk •  Hist 00:12, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. A Google search for '"The Hungry Man" "Oren Ginzburg"' comes up with four hits for this self-published book.  Not even sold at amazon, which generally sells self-published books.  User:Zoe|(talk) 07:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete I take a very inclusive line on books so long as they are not self-published. In part, this is because I have "psychic" relatives who regularly self-publish absurd predictions, so I am familiar with the range of kooks who will pay for the "honor" of disseminating ideas this way.  Basically, if you self-publish (at least after 1950), I assume that your ideas were denied a label for a reason.  The four google hits, in this instance, support my assumption. Xoloz 08:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Category:Judoka at the 1980 Summer Olympics

This category includes judoka at the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow, Soviet Union.


text: Category:Junior-featherweights

title: Category:Junior-featherweights


text:
File:EllaAtTheOperaHouse.jpg

Summary
The cover of the 1957 Ella Fitzgerald album, 'Ella at the Opera House'.

title: File:EllaAtTheOperaHouse.jpg


text:
National Social Integration Party

National Social Integration Party (in Albanian: Partia Integrimi Social Kombetar) is a political party in Albania led by Petrit Memia.

title: National Social Integration Party


text:
Where the Heart Is (British TV series)

Where the Heart Is is a British drama television series set in the fictional Yorkshire town of Skelthwaite, created by Ashley Pharoah and Vicky Featherstone. The series first aired on ITV in the United Kingdom on 6 April 1997. The show focuses on the lives of a group of district nurses and their families who reside in the town. The show was created after Featherstone visited the Yorkshire town of Meltham. She was intrigued by the tight-knit community, particularly those connected to the local district nursing office. She approached Pharoah with her ideas, and they pitched the show to ITV; after the network ordered production of the first series, they – along with producer Kate Anthony – began creating the show. The series was filmed in the Colne valley of West Yorkshire, mainly in the villages of Marsden and Slaithwaite and the town of Meltham.

Where The Heart Is focuses on the stories that occur in small communities without being sentimental. Pharoah wanted to explore the hidden conflicts that occur within the families and friends. Margaret Tiffany, a real-life Meltham district nurse, provided Featherstone with the premise of the show. She was employed as a script advisor and coached the cast and helped the production create an authentic representation of life in the Colne Valley communities. Where The Heart Is initially focuses on five main characters from the Snow and Goddard family. In later series it expanded its focus to additional characters using an ensemble cast format. On 12 October 2006, ITV announced that the tenth series was the last as they decided to focus on creating other shows. The final episode was broadcast on 10 September 2006.

Plot overview
Where the Heart Is focuses on the personal lives of two district nurses in the small Yorkshire town of Skelthwaite. The official ITV website described the series as "an engaging story of life, love, family and people’s ever-changing fortunes in rural England. Set against the rugged landscape of Yorkshire, it follows the busy professional and family lives of District Nurses, as they bring nursing and emotional care to young and old alike." Initially, it mainly concentrated on the lives of two of the district health nurses, Peggy Snow (Pam Ferris) and Ruth Goddard (Sarah Lancashire). The story expands to focus on the lives of more Skelthwhaite residents, particularly those related to the nurses as well as those working in a local toilet paper factory.

Production
Where The Heart Is was created by Ashley Pharoah and Vicky Featherstone. The show is a drama series and was made for ITV's "prime time" television slot. The series was filmed in the Colne valley of West Yorkshire, mainly in the villages of Marsden and Slaithwaite, and the town of Meltham. The production team would also use Huddersfield Town Hall as an occasional filming location. The show's theme song, also titled "Where the Heart Is", was performed by the band Prefab Sprout.

Featherstone's inspiration for the series came from a visit to the Colne Valley, where she attended a wedding. Featherstone was intrigued by a close-knit community based in Meltham, particularly the district nurses working in the town. Featherstone had previously worked with Pharoah writing for the BBC television drama Silent Witness. She recalled that he was keen to create a story about a teenager who wanted to break away from a tight-knit community, and thought that the two stories could be combined. When Featherstone approached Pharoah with her idea, he was uninterested in the concept because he believed it "sounded soft and sentimental". She convinced Pharoah to accompany her to Meltham where they visited a small district nursing office. After conversing with the staff, Pharoah realised they had valid stories which had the potential to be explored fully on a television series. After two days in Meltham, Pharoah was determined to create the show. He had even envisioned all the characters based on the people he had met and thought of storylines.

Pharoah was soon hired by United Productions, where Featherstone was already employed, to write a script. The pair knew the show would need to be suitable for a pre-watershed time slot and were mindful to exclude profanity and nudity. Pharoah was adamant that Where The Heart Is would not be sentimental and would include conflict. The decision to make the two main characters female was made to give the show a "maternal heart". Pharoah decided to make certain characters related to add to the conflict that arises from family disagreements. Pharoah observed a toilet paper factory in Meltham and decided to incorporate it into the scripts because it dominated the town's employment. He told Deborah and Anthony Hayward, in their book Where The Heart Is, that "I thought it would be good to have that sense of industry. It gave us a workplace for the men that added a completely different angle from the women's nursing storylines." The show also features a local rugby team, with their story providing the more comedic elements of the series; Pharoah was a keen rugby fan and thought it added good balance to some of the show's "dark storylines". The story which set the tone for the show was the issue of euthanasia. In the opening episode the lead characters help their patient to die. Originally ITV was not keen on exploring the issue, but changed their stance after reading Pharoah's scripts. The network was also concerned about the show's structure in regards to its equal focus on all of the characters. They believed the programme better suited a "pyramid structure", in which the matriarchal character of Peggy was at the top.

Simon Lewis took on the role of the executive producer of Where The Heart Is. Kate Anthony was hired as the show's producer and was intrigued by the story of a woman choosing how she wanted to die. She met with Featherstone and Pharoah to discuss the series and travelled to the Yorkshire towns of Meltham, Marsden and Slaithwaite, which she decided to use as filming locations for the show. Naming the show's main town Skelthwaite was inspired by the real village of Slaithwaite. Anthony recalled watching the sun gleam over the Yorkshire moors and feeling that the show had found its home. She then set about finding the show's cast with the help of Lewis and casting director Gail Stevens.

One of Featherstone's biggest inspirations for the series was Margaret Tiffany, a district nursing sister based in Meltham. Tiffany had twenty-three years experience working her role in the Colne Valley area. She helped Pharoah research information for the stories included in the first series of the show and assisted cast members with their research as well, particularly Ferris. Tiffany also acted as a nursing advisor, providing information on medical practises and procedures, coaching the cast in how to perform first aid, apply bandages, and take a patient's blood pressure. Filming began in the British winter of 1996. They soon discovered they had to exclude the use of medical aprons in scenes because they affected on-set lighting. Ferris told Hayward that "we decided to take liberties with that sort of thing", noting it was a drama rather than a factual documentary. Where The Heart Is debuted on ITV on 6 April 1997. The first episode was watched by more than ten million viewers during its first broadcast in the United Kingdom.

On 12 October 2006, it was announced that ITV had decided to not renew the show for an additional series. The show was dropped despite high ratings, averaging more than six million viewers per episode. A publicist from the channel stated "Where The Heart Is has been a very successful series for ITV1. But the decision has been taken in order to create some flexibility for new programme ideas in that 8pm Sunday slot." The show's producer, Ian Hopkins, said he was "sorry" the show had been cancelled and added "I would like to thank you for all your support for the programme over the last 10 years."

Cast and characters
The series initially focused on the Snow and Goddard family, which was headed by matriarch Peggy Snow. The character was based on Pharoah's mother Maureen, sharing her "decency, warmth and down-to-earth humanity." Peggy's role in the series was to drive the stories featured in each episode by being an investigator. Anthony told Hayward that Peggy's characterisation could be interpreted as nosiness but her "caring and inquisitive" nature allowed her to "wheedle out the stories". Anthony wanted to find an actress who could portray Peggy's "tremendous strength and resolve" alongside her "warmth and humour". The casting team decided to approach actress Pam Ferris for the part. Ferris had previously played matriarch Ma Larkin in The Darling Buds of May. She had previously refused other similar roles but liked the scripts for Where The Heart Is. She explained that the show was "daring" for portraying euthanasia and which made her want the role.

The role of Peggy's sister-in-law Ruth Goddard was given to Sarah Lancashire. She had been approached with the role while she was still appearing in the soap opera Coronation Street as Raquel Watts. Ferris and Lancashire being so well known for other roles worried Pharoah but having watched them perform and learning of their commitment to their new roles, he accepted them. Pharoah scripted Ruth very differently to Peggy; he stated that he wanted "someone who was lively, younger, less experienced and a little disrespectful." Pharoah was inspired to do so having met a nurse with similar characteristics. He decided that they should be best friends and sisters-in-law in order to create tension and conflict in their friendship via family disagreements.

Auditions for the male leads proved difficult for casting directors, who were determined to find actors that matched the strength that Ferris and Lancashire offered their respective role. Anthony auditioned countless actors and was fearful that casting the wrong person as Peggy's husband Vic Snow would ruin the relationship dynamic they envisioned. Tony Haygarth auditioned and was cast as Vic; according to Anthony he stood out because "he had all the qualities of strength and humour - as well as the potential to be a bit grumpy." Vic was scripted as a well loved family man but has never amounted to great success materially. Thomas Craig was selected to play Simon Goddard, Ruth's husband and Peggy's younger brother. Simon was one of the final original characters to be cast, with Thomas receiving the offer weeks prior to filming. He had auditioned for another role and during his audition he tried to sell some cheap fireworks. This caused Anthony to offer him the role of Simon because she thought his behaviour better suited Simon. The character of Simon was pivotal to the show, not only as Peggy's sibling but the owner of the local toilet paper factory. He was characterised as a Thatcherite but also liked being a part of his community. He was portrayed as "ruthless and ambitious" but his role of an employer made him one of Skelwhaite's main providers. William Ash was hired to play Peggy and Vic's son, Stephen Snow. He was transformed into the character that Pharoah had always wanted to create; the teenager keen to move away from a tight-knit community. This characterisation was what initially prompted Featherstone approach Pharoah to create the series. Stephen was portrayed as loath to end up like his father Vic, who had settled for a life time lived in a small community. Jessica Baglow completed the Snow family, playing Peggy and Vic's young daughter Lucy.

Other original characters featured in the series included William Travis as factory worker Dick Lampard, Andrew Knott as Stephen's best friend Henry Green, Maggie Wells as part-time district nurse Patricia Illingworth and Laura Crossley as Deborah Allis. Graham Turner played Walter Charlton, a recurring character created by Pharoah. Anthony disliked his "old man" characterisation and decided to rewrite him. Turner originally auditioned for another role in the series, but Anthony believed he fitted her plans for Walter. He has learning difficulties, which Anthony was keen to portray in Where The Heart Is. She thought that television series were often scared to fully explore learning difficulties and she wanted to show how people like Walter fit into a community.

Cast list

 * Pam Ferris as Peggy Snow (series 1–4)
 * Sarah Lancashire as Ruth Goddard (series 1–3)
 * Tony Haygarth as Vic Snow (series 1–6)
 * Thomas Craig as Simon Goddard (series 1–6, 9)
 * Andrew Knott as Henry Green (series 1–5)
 * William Ash (series 1–2) and Jason Done (series 3–5) as Stephen Snow
 * Jessica Baglow as Lucy Snow (series 1–6)
 * William Travis as Dick Lampard (series 1–6)
 * Marsha Thomason (series 2–3) and Paulette P Williams (series 4–5) as Jacqui Richards
 * Kathryn Hunt (series 2–4) and Phillippa Wilson (series 5–6) as Cheryl Lampard
 * Neil McCaul as Keith Harrison (series 3)
 * Melanie Kilburn as Sandra Harrison (series 3)
 * Alex Carter as Craig Harrison (series 3)
 * Lesley Dunlop as Anna Kirkwall (series 4–10)
 * Christian Cooke as Luke Kirkwall (series 4–10)
 * Philip Middlemiss as David Buckley (series 4–10)
 * Leslie Ash as Karen Buckley (series 4–7)
 * Kelly Wenham as Jess Buckley (series 4–7)
 * Vincenzo Pellegrino as Chris Eckersley (series 4–5)
 * Tom Chadbon as Dr. Kenworthy (series 5–10)
 * Kerrie Taylor as Beth Enright (series 5–9)
 * Katie Riddoch as Molly Beresford (series 6–9)
 * Julian Lewis Jones as Tom Beresford (series 6–9)
 * Danny Seward as Joe Beresford (series 6–9)
 * Andrew Paul as Billy Boothe (series 7–10)
 * Adam Paul Harvey as Nathan Boothe (series 7–10)
 * Keith Barron as Alan Boothe (series 7–8)
 * Samantha Giles as Sally Boothe (series 7–9, guest 10)
 * Holly Grainger (series 7–9) and Holly Lucas (series 10) as Megan Boothe
 * Brian Capron as Ozias Harding (series 8–10)
 * Georgia Tennant as Alice Harding (series 8–9)
 * Jessica Childs-Cavill as Amy Kirkwall (series 9–10)
 * Molly Martin & Millie Martin as Rachel Kirkwall (series 9–10)
 * Richard Mylan as Danny Flint (series 9–10)
 * Taylor Bourke as Cady Flint (series 9–10)
 * Denise van Outen as Kim Blakeney (series 9–10)
 * Shobna Gulati as Nisha Clayton (series 10)
 * Ian Kelsey as Jack Clayton (series 10)
 * Fiona Wade as Rowan Clayton (series 10)
 * Andrea Lowe as Zoë Phelps (series 10)
 * Joanna Riding as Terri Gough (series 10)
 * Wesley Nelson as Alfie Gough (series 10)

Books
A tie-in book based on the characters of Peggy and Ruth, written by Kate Lock, was released on 7 May 1998. A television companion book was released on 28 October 1999.

VHS releases
The complete first series of Where the Heart Is was released on VHS on 26 October 1998.

title: Where the Heart Is (British TV series)


text:
Handle decompositions of 3-manifolds

In mathematics, a handle decomposition of a 3-manifold allows simplification of the original 3-manifold into pieces which are easier to study.

Heegaard splittings
An important method used to decompose into handlebodies is the Heegaard splitting, which gives a decomposition in two handlebodies of equal genus.

Examples
As an example: lens spaces are orientable 3-spaces and allow decomposition into two solid tori, which are genus-one-handlebodies. The genus one non-orientable space is a space which is the union of two solid Klein bottles and corresponds to the twisted product of the 2-sphere and the 1-sphere: $$\scriptstyle S^2\tilde{\times}S^1$$.

Orientability
Each orientable 3-manifold is the union of exactly two orientable handlebodies; meanwhile, each non-orientable one needs three orientable handlebodies.

Heegaard genus
The minimal genus of the glueing boundary determines what is known as the Heegaard genus. For non-orientable spaces an interesting invariant is the tri-genus.

title: Handle decompositions of 3-manifolds


text: Template:Pain of Salvation

title: Template:Pain of Salvation


text:
User:David Russell

David Russell: davidrussell.net
An avid Wikipedian, David is the Web Designer for Church of the Highlands in Birmingham, Alabama. At Highlands, David is responsible for the multitude of web identities at the church and provides solutions for technology-based needs within the context of the church. Highlands's innovative and life-giving approach to ministry is well-suited for David and is the most useful in revealing his God-given skills.

His work at Wikipedia is mostly devoted the history of the multi-site church movement.

To learn more about David, visit his website.

title: User:David Russell


text:
Talk:Cricket-spitting

Updated ruleset
This article needs an official ruleset from Purdue. If anyone has a copy of the ruleset, or would contact Tom Turpin at Purdue, and fill in the relevant section, that would be very helpful! A photo of someone spitting a cricket would be fabulous as well. Phidauex 15:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cricket-spitting


text:
Template talk:Cipher Bureau

Qualify with dates for the personnel
Just a thought: organisations are rarely static. We might need to qualify the periods of office for the various chiefs and deputy chiefs noted here. From my knowledge of it's British counterpart GC&CS, people were frequently promoted or moved about from department to department etc. — Matt Crypto 15:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Langer, Ciężki, Palluth and the three mathematicians were all with the Cipher Bureau and its wartime successor organisation, in the same jobs, for the 10 years, 1932-1942. In the case of the first three men, I don't know their beginning years.
 * The situation is harder with the Russian-cryptology section. Perhaps no Russian-section Rejewski survived the war to record his experiences.
 * For each of the two language sections, I've seen half a dozen other names listed, but with no information about their functions or periods of employment, so I left them out of Listowy's Template:Cipher Bureau.
 * Maybe someone will come up with more details. logologist 00:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Length
Is there a chance to make this template a tad shorter and more compact? So far it occupies a lot of space yet is overcrowded with info and hardly informative. Perhaps we could list all the names and devices in two sections and distinguish them by some abbreviation or something? Halibutt 19:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Check my talk site. Post date: 20:19, 1 October 2005 (UTC). You will find there my proposition. Listowy 12:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I rather thought of keeping all the info in one table, but making it much smaller by compression of information and by cutting out all the dates, which are not as crucial in a navbox.

 * What do you think? Matt? Halibutt 12:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I think your version is much better as a navigation box. It occurred to me that the current version, which is more of an organizational chart / infobox, would be good on Biuro Szyfrów, but that this smaller box would be better on the various associated topics. — Matt Crypto 13:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks, I'm replacing it then. Take note that I added some names to the list, most notably Bertrand, Kowalewski and some other early-times guys. BTW, I'm currently writing an article on Kowalewski, as he was one of the most fascinating personalities behind the scene of CB.. Halibutt 14:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Gustave Bertrand was a French military intelligence officer, never one of the Polish Cipher Bureau's personnel, therefore he should not be listed as such. logologist 19:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

 * In that case it would be good idea to create two version of this template. One smaller for associated topics and one bigger, with detail information-like the previous one, for BS main article. Here you will find old/detail version. Listowy 10:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Yet, Bertrand was crucial in Polish early efforts of breaking the Enigma and was one of the most frequent outside collaborators of the Cipher Bureau. However, if you think his name does not belong here - so be it.

 * Also, I added the names of the guys who helped to break the WWI-time ciphers. Their role is briefly mentioned in the article on Kowalewski I wrote yesterday, but not in their articles themselves. Nevertheless, they were crucial in the early days of CB.

 * As to two templates - perhaps it is a nice idea. On the other hand we should fill in the blanks in the older version as it lists only some of the commanders and still has lots of free spaces. Halibutt 11:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

 * What are the sources on Jan Kowalewski and on the participation here of some of the cream of the Polish School of Mathematics: Stanisław Leśniewski, Stefan Mazurkiewicz, Wacław Sierpiński?  logologist 15:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

 * There was quite a fuzz on the joint Polish-British commission lately (the one to investigate the Polish WWII intelligence and the British archives) and several newspapers provided quite a detailed biography of that guy. Also, there was a fascinating conference on Kowalewski's WWI and WWII work, as well as a nice overview here. Halibutt 12:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Personnel
Stefan Mayer was not a Cipher Bureau employee. He was prewar chief of Section II's Intelligence department. He should not be listed among the Cipher Bureau's "personnel," any more than one would list there Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły. logologist 11:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yup, that's right. I listed him here on the same basis as the French guy, as he was the guy behind all the diplomatic meetings with the French and British, as well as the direct supervisor of the entire Bureau. Feel free to cut him out if you feel that this template should list only the people on CB's payroll rather than all people involved in its works. Halibutt 12:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Is there an article devoted to the Polish General Staff? That might be the  place for Col. Stefan Mayer.

 * It's a dilemma: If we were to include here everyone who contributed to the Cipher Bureau's work, we might need to consider Hans-Thilo Schmidt too.  logologist 15:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Cadix
Inasmuch as the "Cadix" intelligence center in Vichy France operated for over two years — three times as long as "PC Bruno," before it — it seemed to deserve at least a stub of its own. And so I've set one up, including a bit of new information.

It would be well to add "Cadix" to the list of Cipher Bureau operating sites in Template:Cipher Bureau. logologist|Talk 05:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Cipher Bureau


text:
User talk:Airtight

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!
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The article you created - Southern Evangelical Seminary - has been deleted, as it contained nothing but an external link. Wikipedia is not a web directory, but a encyclopedia, so you'd have to write something about that topic first. andy 15:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Airtight


text: User talk:69.197.54.48

title: User talk:69.197.54.48


text: Talk:U Remind Me

title: Talk:U Remind Me


text:
George Fife Angas

George Fife Angas (1 May 1789 – 15 May 1879) was an English businessman and banker who, while residing in England, played a significant part in the formation and establishment of the Province of South Australia. He established the South Australian Company and was its founding chairman of the board of directors.

In later life he migrated to the colony and served as a member of the first South Australian Legislative Council. His financial contribution of some £40,000 was instrumental to the creation of South Australia.

Early life
Angas was born at Newcastle upon Tyne, England, fifth son of coachbuilder and ship owner Caleb Angas of Newcastle (1743–1831) and his second wife Sarah Angas née Lindsay (1749–1802). After his mother's death, Angas continued his education at a boarding school and at age 15, became an apprentice coachbuilder under his father's direction. He started the Benevolent Society of Coachbuilders in Newcastle in 1807 "to provide for sick members and others requiring relief, and promote habits of economy and temperance". In 1808, he went to London to gain further experience and returned to Newcastle in 1809 where he worked as a supervisor for his father's business.

On 8 April 1812, in Hutton, Essex, he married Rosetta French (1793–1867), daughter of John French (1761–1829), "Gentleman of Hutton, Essex", and Rosetta French née Rayner (1756–1836). They had three sons and four daughters.
 * Rosetta French Angas (1813-1898)
 * Sarah Lindsay Angas (1816-1898), Australian temperance worker
 * Emma Angas (1818-1885), caught smallpox and died while nursing refugees in Beirut
 * George French Angas (1822-1886), artist
 * John Howard Angas (1823-1904), Australian pioneer, politician and philanthropist
 * Mary Ann Angas (1826-1831)
 * William Henry Angas (1832-1870)

Career
Over the next 20 years Angas took a large role in the family business in Newcastle, which also had branches in British ports, the West Indies and Spanish America, and steadily developed his own shipping business in London. By 1831, his business owned three ships, commercial business in British Honduras, Buenos Aires and London, coach factories in Durham and Newcastle, with mahogany trade and copperas works.

Angas came from a non-conformist religious household, and as a religious person became a secretary of the Newcastle Sunday School Union, founded in 1815 to educate poor children in Newcastle and Gateshead. On two occasions after the repeal of the Test Act and the Corporation Act in 1828, which barred non-conformists from public office, Angas was asked to stand for Parliament, but declined partly due to reasons of poor health. He had a talent for banking, and played a large part in the founding of the National Provincial Bank of England in 1833, (which exists today after several mergers as NatWest), sitting as a director on its first board, the Union Bank of Australia (in 1836) and the South Australian Banking Company (in 1840).

In 1835, he held shares in the British American Land Company.

South Australia
Angas had become relatively wealthy and was concerned with putting his money to the best use. He became interested in a proposed settlement in South Australia and in 1832 joined the committee of the South Australian Land Company and took up enough shares to become a director. His own views on systematic colonisation dealt with the exclusion of convicts, concentration of settlers, sending out (preferably religious) intelligent people with capital, the emigration of young couples of good character, free trade, free government, and freedom of religion. As such, South Australia became the first Australian colony to provide residents with religious freedom and to grant land rights to indigenous people.

Angas was discouraged by the company's failure to get government support, but continued his involvement with the South Australian Association which was formed in 1834, with Robert Gouger as secretary.

During debates on the price of land Angas, who held the opposite view to Edward Gibbon Wakefield, wanted the price of land to be low. However, the South Australian Colonization Commission set a high price for land, which brought sales of land, and hence establishment of the colony, to a standstill. Angas formed a joint-stock company to buy the remaining land, which was transferred in January 1836 to the newly formed South Australian Company. In February 1836, the first of three ships set sail for South Australia with emigrants, livestock and provisions on board. The company supervisors were provided with minutely detailed instructions covering almost any problem which might have arisen. All three ships arrived by the middle of August.

The colonial office, the Colonization Commissioners, and the South Australian Company would determine the success or failure of the colony, and it was still unclear which was the controlling body. There was initial friction between the company and the commissioners. The establishment of a banking business in 1837, and its separation as the South Australian Banking Company in 1840, at the behest of Angas, played an important part in the early growth of the colony. Angas worked on behalf of the bank in England, giving lectures, writing pamphlets and supplying information to newspapers. He also helped to establish the South Australian School Society, and sent out missionaries and German colonists. He set up the Union Bank of Australia in England and also found the time to be active in the colonisation of New Zealand.

In recognition of his efforts in making New Zealand a British colony rather than a French colony, Angas was offered a knighthood and a then baronetcy, but he declined both.

Angas was also a leading figure in attempting to establish and secure proper treatment of the Aboriginal people of South Australia. "Mr Angas set before himself the model of William Penn and his treaty with the North American Indians for establishing friendly and equitable relations with the Europeans." (Hodder) Using his position as Commissioner, he attempted to secure Aboriginal rights in both legislature and through financing missionary actions.

In 1836, Angas met with Pastor August Kavel, who was Pastor in Klępsk (Klemzig) in Prussia. Kavel and his Lutheran congregation at Klemzig faced oppression due to decrees made by King Frederick William III. They sought to regain their religious freedom by emigrating to another country. Angas sent his chief clerk, Charles Flaxman to Prussia to meet with Kavel's group. Flaxman on returning, gave a favorable report to Angas, who then sought to have the South Australian Company meet the cost of the transport for the whole congregation from Hamburg to South Australia. This request was declined, and so Angas made a loan to this group of emigrants, by meeting the cost of securing vessels himself. In 1838 Angas chartered four ships on their behalf; Prince George, Bengalee, Zebra, and Catharina. This loan, along with another Angas had made to his chief clerk Charles Flaxman, (who invested in land in South Australia), put Angas in a difficult financial situation the next year. Angas had borrowed heavily and was forced to sell his interests in the Union Bank and other companies.

News came that the British government had dishonoured drafts drawn by the Governor, George Gawler and that the colony was in danger of ruin. Angas appealed to the government, his efforts resulting in a loan to the colony and payment of the dishonoured drafts.

In 1842 Angas lectured extensively on South Australia and wrote a pamphlet, "Facts Illustrative of South Australia", which was widely distributed. Gawler, who had been recalled to England, suggested that Angas should settle in South Australia. In early 1843, his finances still troubled, he sent out his 19-year-old son John Howard Angas to supervise his land and recover the family fortunes. Angas was unable to sell his northern England properties until 1850 but some repayments had come in from the German settlers. The stress had affected his health and he decided to migrate to Australia, arriving in Adelaide with his wife and youngest son in January 1851.

Slavery
According to Humphrey McQueen and Catherine Hall, the Angas family business supply chain included dealings with businesses in the Caribbean that used slaves.

Angas is not recorded by the Legacies of British Slave-ownership database as having held slaves himself, nor of having obtained any meaningful benefit from them. As was typical for the period, his business associates in British Honduras included people who owned slaves. He collected compensatory claims on behalf of four former slave owners, totalling £6,942 after abolition, with a total of 121 slaves.

The claims he collected were:
 * 5 October 1835, Honduras 231, 40 enslaved, £2176 17/3d.
 * 26 October 1835, Honduras 51, 12 enslaved, £685 15/1d.
 * 26 October 1835, Honduras 199, 35 enslaved, £1642 17/2d
 * 9 November 1835, Honduras 244, 34 enslaved, £2439 17/3d.

On 12 June 1840, he was delegate number 196, one of eight representing Newcastle upon Tyne, at the World Anti-Slavery Convention.

A commemorative newspaper article in The Advertiser (an Adelaide daily) in 1909 described how Angas sought to protect the poorer classes from oppression and endeavoured to help slaves who, he argued, were held in illegal bondage. In 1824, over 200 Indians were set free as a result of his efforts.

Later life, death and legacy
Angas, by then almost 62, was met by his two sons and eldest daughter. His work on behalf of the colony was widely known and a few days later a public dinner was held in his honour. He found work, becoming elected as a member of the Legislative Council for the Barossa district and turned his attention towards education and other public interests. Being kept busy improved his health, and he was able to pay off his debts in short order.

Angas bought Merino sheep and cattle, employing out-of work migrants on his property. He returned to England from 1857 to September 1859 to settle matters in his father's estate. He continued parliamentary work and lobbied against South Australia being given responsibility for the administration of the Northern Territory. He resigned in 1866, feeling that he could not fully fulfil his role, and continued to contribute to schools, churches and charities. His wife of 55 years died in 1867.

In 1869 he published The History of the Newcastle-on-Tyne Sunday School Union, which was compiled by secretary William Ramage Lawson. Although retired from parliamentary duties, managing his property at Angaston gave him plenty to do.

He recovered from a serious illness at 87 and died on 15 May 1879 at 90 years of age. He was survived by three sons, notably John Howard Angas and George French Angas, and three daughters.

 * A grandson, James Angas Johnson (c. 1842 – 19 May 1902), generally referred to as J. Angas Johnson, was one of the founding trustees of the Savings Bank of South Australia. His son E. Angas Johnson (1873–1951), was City Health Officer of Adelaide, and a defender of his father's reputation.

Angas' financial contribution of some £40,000 was instrumental to the creation of South Australia.

title: George Fife Angas


text:
Talk:U Got It Bad

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title: Talk:U Got It Bad