text:
Talk:History of the Bahamas

Question moved from article
what are the names of the six lord proprietors

Rum running
Was the profit from rumrunning during prohibition or was there profit before that by avoiding taxes? (i.e. can we tighten the time frame that rum-running occurred during?) RJFJR 21:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Pre-western history
Don't we know anything about the history of the Bahamas before Columbus? (archeology? Anything?  really?) RJFJR 21:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.39.244.241 (talk) 17:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Post-independence history?
Has nothing significant happened in the Bahamas since 1973? This section may need to be expanded. phreakydancin (talk) 23:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This article also doesn't mention anything significant happening for 130 years after the emancipation of slaves in 1834. After the emancipation of slaves, the article only talks about the usefulness of the Bahamas as a military base for other countries. --Apollo1758 (talk) 01:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

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Wording
Um word for children to understan my child is 8 an can not understan 65.75.107.179 (talk) 01:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Take a look at Simple Wikipedia. - Donald Albury 02:05, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

"Crown Colony of the Bahamas" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crown_Colony_of_the_Bahamas&redirect=no Crown Colony of the Bahamas] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 06:24, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:History of the Bahamas


text:
User:Oliverdl

I joined wikipedia in August 2005 and have now written around 15 articles, mainly about science. I have spent around a year in China and have studied Chinese. I am a New Zealander and currently live there.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Oliverdl


text:
File:Want One Cover.jpg

Fair use in Want One
Though this image is subject to copyright, its use is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:
 * 1) It's a low resolution copy of a CD/album cover.
 * 2) It doesn't limit the copyright owner's rights to sell the CD/album in any way, in fact, it may encourage sales.
 * 3) Because of the low resolution, copies could not be used to make illegal copies of the album artwork on another CD.
 * 4) The image is itself a subject of discussion in the article or used in the infobox thereof.
 * 5) The image on the cover is significant because it was made by a famous artist.

Source

 * 1) Derived from a digital capture (scan/photo) of the album/CD cover (creator of this digital version is irrelevant as the copyright in all equivalent images is still held by the same party). Copyright held by the record company or the artist. Claimed as fair use regardless.

title: File:Want One Cover.jpg


text:
JBI

The acronym JBI might refer to:
 * Badjiri language, an extinct language of Australia
 * Java Business Integration
 * JBI International, formerly the Jewish Braille Institute
 * The Joanna Briggs Institute
 * Joint Battlespace Infosphere
 * Journal of Biomedical Informatics, a scientific journal

title: JBI


text:
Katrin Göring-Eckardt

Katrin Dagmar Göring-Eckardt (born Katrin Dagmar Eckardt; 3 May 1966) is a German politician of the German Green Party (officially known as Alliance 90/The Greens). Starting her political activity in the now-former German Democratic Republic (East Germany) in the late 1980s, she has been a member of the German Bundestag since 1998. She became co-chair of her party caucus in the Bundestag (2002–2005) and the Greens' Vice President of the Bundestag on 18 October 2005, a position that she held until 2013 and would later reprise in 2021. In the November 2012 primary election, the Green Party chose her and Jürgen Trittin as the top two candidates for the Greens for the 2013 German federal election. She also stood as joint top candidate for the Greens in the 2017 German federal election, alongside Cem Özdemir..

Between 2009 and 2013, Göring-Eckardt served as praeses of the synod of the Evangelical Church in Germany (Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, abbreviated EKD) and thus as member of the Council of the EKD. However, during the federal election campaign in 2013 she stepped down from her office in the EKD.

Early life and education
Katrin Eckhardt was born on 3 May 1966 in the small town of Friedrichroda, near Gotha in Thuringia. Her parents were both dancers. She was an active member of the Free German Youth (Freie Deutsche Jugend, abbreviated FDJ). After completing her Abitur at the Erweiterte Oberschule (Extended Secondary School, abbreviated EOS) Gotha in 1984, she began studying Lutheran theology at the University of Leipzig, where she studied until 1988 without gaining an academic degree.

Party career
Until the Peaceful Revolution and Die Wende in East Germany, Göring-Eckardt worked with the Arbeitskreis Solidarische Kirche (Working Group Solidarity Church, abbreviated as AKSK) and without any party membership. In 1989, she became a founding member of the East German political group called the Democratic Awakening and, in 1990, the citizens' movement Democracy Now. From 1990 to 1993, she was a member of the Thuringia State Executive of Alliance 90. As a member of the Thuringia state boards of Democracy Now and Alliance 90, she participated in the negotiations for the merger of Alliance 90 and the Greens, which in 1990, merged with the Green Party in the GDR to form an all-German party that currently exists: Alliance 90/The Greens.

After the merger of Alliance 90 with the Greens in 1993, Göring-Eckardt worked in the Thuringia Landtag with the same parliamentary group as a speaker for women's issues, family and youth. From 1998 to 2006, she was also a member of the party council of the Alliance 90/The Greens. From 1995 to 1998, she was also an employee of the Green politician Matthias Berninger; around that same time from 1996 to 1998, she was also an adjunct member of the Federal Executive for the Greens. Until 1998, she was a member of the Thuringia Green Party National Executive; she was also the state spokeswoman with interruptions during her service. In 2006, she was once again an assessor for the Thuringia Green Party State Executive Committee.

Prior to the ballot to determine the top two Green candidates in November 2012 for the 2013 German federal election, Göring-Eckardt initially spoke out against having a top two for parliamentary candidates, but instead favored a broad-positioned top team. One strong supporter of her candidacy was, amongst others, Boris Palmer (mayor of Tübingen), the party was also internally "realist". During her candidacy, she announced her intention to engage in discussing in particular how to resolve the further disintegration of society. She wanted to go to the people and especially appeal to those sections of the population there, because she said that the other values are crucial as the purely economic ones. An example factor for that choice was the electoral success of Winfried Kretschmann as Minister-President of Baden-Württemberg in 2011. Compared to competitors Claudia Roth and Renate Künast, who were seen as insiders, voters felt that the conservative Göring-Eckardt was a better choice than an outsider. Various media described her performance as a correction to the force rather than going further left when compared to first-place primary election winner Jürgen Trittin, a vote made by the now much more bourgeois party base. The rumored affinity to her black-green alliances notwithstanding, Göring-Eckardt spoke out after the primary election for a red-green coalition. Left party members evaluated the good performance rather critically; compared with the weekly newspaper Die Zeit, they called her an "alleged social politician".

Member of the Bundestag, 1998–present
Since 1998, Göring-Eckardt has been a member of the Bundestag; she entered the body as a list MP for Thuringia since the electoral system is mixed-member proportional representation with half of the seats being constituency-based and the other half being state list-based. From 1998 to 2002, she was First Parliamentary Secretary (or managing director), specifically from February to October 2002, as well as health and pension policy spokeswoman for the party's parliamentary group. From October 2002 to September 2005, she and Krista Sager became co-chairs of the Green Party faction. In the 2005 federal election, she was the Greens candidate for the Thuringia constituency Erfurt – Weimar – Weimarer Land II; however, she lost election for that constituency but still remained in the Bundestag because she was re-elected on the state list for Thuringia.

On 18 October 2005, Göring-Eckardt was elected as the Green parliamentary group's Vice President of the Bundestag with 479 votes in favor, 69 votes against, and 39 abstentions. Since the fall of 2005, she is also the cultural affairs spokeswoman in her group. In 2009, she sought again to win a constituency seat in her state, this time Gotha – Ilm-Kreis; she still could not gain a constituency-based seat but once again got re-elected on the state list. On 27 October 2009, she was re-elected Vice President of the Bundestag on the first day of the meeting of the new parliament with 473 votes in favor, 9 votes against, 5 abstentions, and 61 blank votes. In the primary election for the Greens' top candidates for the 2013 federal election on 11 November 2012, she was the second-place winner with 47.3%, beating Claudia Roth and Renate Künast; this made her and Jürgen Trittin, who won the most votes, the factions' top two candidates for the following year's election.

Since October 2013, she has been co-chair of the Green Party faction, together with Anton Hofreiter.

In the negotiations to form a so-called traffic light coalition of the Social Democrats (SPD), the Green Party and the FDP following the 2021 federal elections, Göring-Eckardt led her party's delegation in the working group on children, youth and families; her co-chairs from the other parties are Serpil Midyatli and Stephan Thomae.

Religious activities
Göring-Eckardt is active within the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) and has held a number of positions within it. She served from 2007 to 2015 as an elected board member of the German Evangelical Church Assembly. She also sat on the Board of Trustees of the International Martin Luther Foundation.

She was a member of the Evangelical Church in Germany's 11th Synod and was elected its head in 2009 over the former Minister-President of Bavaria Günther Beckstein.

In 2009 became President of the 33rd biannual German Evangelical Church Assembly, held in Dresden in 2011.

When in November 2012 the Green party elected her as their joint top candidate (with Jürgen Trittin) for the 2013 general election Göring-Eckhard chose to relinquish her responsibilities within the EKD for the duration of the election campaign.

Other community activities
Göring-Eckardt is a member of the Board of Trustees of the Action Reconciliation Service for Peace e. V. She was also a 2009/2010 Board member of the non-profit association Atlantik-Brücke e. V. and, since May 2010, an official "godmother" of the Bethel Children's Hospice for dying children.

She also holds the following community positions:
 * Deutscher Evangelischer Kirchentag (Bureau Board)
 * Federal Foundation for Mother and Child, Member of the Board of Trustees – until 22 February 2010
 * Atlantik-Brücke e. V. (member)
 * International Martin Luther Foundation, Member of the Board of Trustees
 * Bethel Children's Hospice (Godmother)
 * Evangelical Academy in Berlin, Member of the Advisory Board
 * Evangelical Wittenberg Foundation, Member of the Board of Trustees
 * Hermann Kunst Foundation for the Promotion of New Testament Textual Research, Member of the Board of Trustees
 * Education Foundation of the Evangelical Church in Central Germany (EKM), Member of the Board
 * Haus der Geschichte, Member of the Board of Trustees
 * Progressives Zentrum, Member of the Circle of Friends
 * Zeitzeichen. Evangelical Comments on Religion and Society. magazine, volunteer co-editor

Values
Party insiders and parts of the media view Göring-Eckardt as a member of the so-called "" (Realist), or realpolitik/realist wing of the Greens. In addition she is considered to be a supporter of conservative values with a green lifestyle. In the past, she has based her conscience-based decisions on her religious views. Due to her strong localization in the bourgeois/middle class and good contacts with the centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU), she has been listed as a suitable candidate for discussions about forging CDU-Green or black-green coalitions (black being the CDU's color and green being the color for the Greens). Her reputation of being friendly to the CDU is well-founded with her participation in the so-called Pizza-Connection (Pizza Connection) in the 1990s; the Pizza Connection was an informal conversation circle between the younger Green and CDU politicians with the name of the circle coming from an Italian restaurant in Bonn.

She was a supporter of Schröder's Agenda 2010 reforms.

After the end of the red-green coalition government (where the Social Democratic Party led by Gerhard Schröder and the Greens were in a coalition from 1998 to 2005), Göring-Eckardt profiled on different occasions that what she called her conservative values of sustainability, social compensation, and social justice are of particular concern to her.

Human rights
Under the umbrella of the godparenthood program of Libereco – Partnership for Human Rights for political prisoners, Göring-Eckardt has been raising awareness for the imprisonment of Belarusian political activist Ales Bialiatski between 2011 and 2014.

In August 2012, Göring-Eckardt was one of 124 members of the Bundestag to sign a letter that was sent to the Russian ambassador to Germany, Vladimir Grinin, expressing concern over the trial against the three members of Pussy Riot. "Being held in detention for months and the threat of lengthy punishment are draconian and disproportionate", the lawmakers said in the letter. "In a secular and pluralist state, peaceful artistic acts -- even if they can be seen as provocative -- must not lead to the accusation of serious criminal acts that lead to lengthy prison terms".

In December 2014, Göring-Eckardt and fellow Green MP Luise Amtsberg visited the Zaatari refugee camp in Jordan to learn more about the plight of Syrians fleeing the violence in the ongoing Syrian Civil War that erupted in 2011.

In August 2018, Göring-Eckardt urged Chancellor Angela Merkel to appeal Russian President Vladimir Putin for the release of Ukrainian filmmaker Oleg Sentsov.

European integration
Following the United Kingdom's 2016 referendum on European Union membership, Göring-Eckart made a request to the German government on behalf of the estimated 100,000 Britons living and working across Germany to offer fast-track citizenship.

Controversy
In early 2022, a court in Rhineland-Palatinate sentenced a man to a suspended prison term of seven months for defamation and insulting Göring-Eckardt.

Personal life
Göring-Eckardt married Lutheran pastor Michael Göring in 1988 and had two sons. The couple separated in 2011 and divorced in 2017. She is in a relationship with Thies Gundlach, a theologian and official in the EKD.

Literature

 * Michael F. Feldkamp (ed.), Der Bundestagspräsident. Amt – Funktion – Person. 16. Wahlperiode, Olzog, München 2007, ISBN 978-3-7892-8201-0.

title: Katrin Göring-Eckardt


text:
User:ChairLady

As I usually live amongst most of royal family members, my contributions to Wikipedia could be explaining who is who in between this circles. Well, it's not so easy: Some of them like to live in secrecy and are very difficult to define...

title: User:ChairLady


text:
Talk:Angora rabbit

Trelicians don't exist
There have been repeated attempts to add sneaky vandalism to this article mentioning "Trelicians," who don't exist. . This article actually began as sneaky vandalism, and the bad information exists on some outdated wikipedia mirrors, so be please be wary when simply verifying through google. -- Norvy (talk) 03:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, what's the deal with the Trelicians anyway? I've heard fragments here and there about them in relation to Angora rabbits. "A people from the south Carpathian mountains in Turkey." Huh? Audrun 19:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * A noted historian of rabbit breeds, Bob D. Whitman mentions "Trelicians" in his history of the Angora breed appearing in his much-consulted book: Domestic Rabbits & Their Histories: Breeds of the World (see upcoming citation in the article). Whitman is a recognized authority in this field; however, in this particular case, no source for his information was provided. Note that Whitman states (on page 48): "Ah, the beautiful Angora rabbit—from where it came, we will never know for sure." His next sentence states: "It has been written [my italics] that the indigenous Trelicians, which were small and frail people, first bred the Angora rabbit in the southern Carpathian mountains around the 6th century." Mr Whitman (who passed away in 2009) was clear: he made no claim to the authenticity of this purported origin. I, like others, have not yet found any information on the Trelicians or their relationship to these rabbits. Because of his widespread reputation for diligent and original research, however, Whitman's observation should be noted—in the context in which he presented it. Yes, Whitman may have been inserting a small jest into his otherwise impeccable research (perhaps to have it floating about in the world well after him?). In light of all this, I am preparing an edit that will reflect these important aspects of Whitman's statements, in the hopes that this "Trelicians" theory—which keeps surfacing, only to be shot down—will be taken in the appropriate and measured light. I look forward to feedback on my attempt to present a helpful clarification.  Timbuk-2 (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

 * "It has been written" sounds like he was potentially referencing this article. I've removed the section per WP:RSUW.  Referencing this "small jest" is not appropriate and only perpetuates the misinformation.  18:16, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Sheared?
This site says the wool is just pulled off during their natural molting. Is this true? They aren't sheared or skinned? More details would be good. — Omegatron 23:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * People usually comb or pluck the hairs from angora rabbits. They are wool animals, so by definition they are not skinned for spinning.  I have heard of people shearing the animals, but my understanding is that that does not produce as good a product of combing of plucking. You're right, it would probably be good to make sure that kind of information is covered somewhere. --Ahc 04:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

They can be sheared or plucked/combed, but plucked or combed wool generally appeals more to hand spinners.Giant and German Angoras generally do not molt, so they must be sheared. Ahc is correct, they are not skinned for their wool. :-) Audrun 18:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is a video of handplucking and spinning courtesy of Don's Angoras

http://www.angoras.co.uk/spinning.wmv Enjoy ! DM

Amongst hobby angora rabbit breeders and growers, the fur is only plucked when in molt, and this is necessary for the health of the animal. If loose strands were allowed to accumulate in the coat, they would consume it when grooming themselves and most likely die of wool block. Also, they would develop painful matts.

Certain angora breeds, such as Germans, and some individuals of other breeds do not molt, and they are clipped with either shears (scissors) or clippers. Most growers use a special clipper from Germany that does not overheat, so that the animal has no discomfort from the blade at all. Great care is taken to make the animal comfortable in all climate conditions. I cannot speak for the commercial industry, but of the pictures I've seen the animals seem to all be sheared using scissors. It also appears that a reasonable amount of length is left on the rabbit in order to avoid accidentally nicking their skin with the scissorts.

I strongly suspect this article was written by a an organization such as [PETA]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals. For instance, strong terms such as "banned" are used. (PETA cannot ban the use of angora fibers. They might ban a member who purchases something made of it, but it cannot ban the practice unless the legislators are convinced that they are correct in doing so). PETA, and it's violent spinoff organization, [ALF]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_Front, are usually far out of step with normal, reasonalbe, humane animal treatment. DD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.153.232.195 (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Tribble!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/bri3n/fuzzball.jpg

TRIBBLE! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bluefoxicy (talk • contribs) 22:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Culling
Full Disclosure: I breed Angora Rabbits, and I am a member of ARBA and NARBC

I would suggest that the section on "human treatment" of Angora rabbits during wool production is misleading with regards to its unsourced statements regarding culling. While I would argue that culling does occur, it is simply not as common or as specific to Angora rabbits as the original poster would lead you to believe. Culling occurs in commercial operations when a rabbit is sold either as a pet, for meat, or for fur. Since (to the best of my knowledge) you do not use the actual hides of Angora for anything, it is much more likely that such a rabbit would be shaved and then sold as meat to a butcher. I would suggest that the original section either needs sources to be cited, or it should be revised to reflect a less biased representation of the facts. Ftwrabbits (talk) 18:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Style Problem - Is this a guide?
Hey guys, I found this article quite interesting and the quality in general to be very good. Still, I can't help but feel it's not in line with Wikipedia's style standards.

I got the feeling like this was almost a guide for people interested in owning or breeding these rabbits. For instance, it talks about the amount of fiber in their diet (maybe okay), but says people should check the side of feed bags to confirm the fiber content. That second part is not encyclopedic knowledge about Angora rabbits. That might be encyclopedic about feed bags, maybe.

One give away is the number of times this article says should (10 times). It seems to me like encyclopedic entries talk about what is, not what one should do or how a certain breed should appear. So in many ways, maybe this is just a matter of wording?

Like I said, very informative article. Just worried it might not be in the right style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodomontade (talk • contribs) 05:56, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Ummm
Why is there a citation needed for the statement that these rabbits generally resemble a ball of fur with a face? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.32.215 (talk) 00:05, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Angora rabbit


text:
Talk:Rent (film)

Bloopers Section?
"In the song "Over the Moon", Maureen sings about being "tied to the hood of a yellow rental truck, packed in with fertilizer and fuel oil". This is most likely a reference to the Oklahoma City bombing, which didn't take place until April 19, 1995." This is speculation and not fact. It could be an unrelated coincidence or irrelevant considering the discussion a few posts down about the time-frame of "Rent."

"The tune that Roger often plays during 'La Vie Boheme' that Mark says sounds like 'Musetta's Waltz' actually IS Musetta's Waltz(No duh! Mark said it sarcasticly!), a piece from the opera called 'La Boheme' which Rent is based on." Does this necessarilly belong in the bloopers section? It is not specific to the film itself. Actually, that whole section reads more like a fansite than a real wiki page, we should clean this up.Shinku Hisaki 08:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I didn't remove that particular section, but I did do a *massive* grammar cleanup on the article. Some phrasing was slightly POV and there were a fair number of run-on sentences, plus one or two that simply didn't read well. 207.216.10.130 10:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this vandalism or did the directors really do this
In the top of the article it says this:

Many exterior shots were filmed in New York City; the interior and remaining exterior shots were filmed in San Francisco and Oakland. In order to create a set of squatters living in an abandoned building, the producers found a squat in West Oakland, evicted real squatters, and destroyed their home. They then hired a crew to build a fake squat where the real one had once been.

Did they really or is that vandalism? 64.251.182.80 22:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I wondered this as well (notably, my question is below) --JE 15:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't find any source confirming this claim, so I have removed the sentences about the squat. --Blenda Lovelace 18:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

''In order to create a set of squatters living in an abandoned building, the producers found a squat in West Oakland, evicted real squatters, and destroyed their home. They then hired a crew to build a fake squat where the real one had once been.'' I'm a bit more interested in this event, is there anymore details that explain this? --JE 17:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't completely doubt this, however I do think it would be quite odd for the directors to do something like this, considering the plot of the movie and what it's about. Menthol Cigarettes 17:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That's complete dribble. Unless you can provide an actual reference (and even then, I wouldn't believe it, as Chris Columbus does not even worry about that, as you can see from movies such as Harry Potter, which I assure you was not made using 'magic'), why even bring it up? Morte42 (talk) 21:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Dating
I'm pretty sure that the stage version, like the movie, is set in the late 1980's. Can anyone (the add-or of that line, perhaps) explain why they think otherwise? Lekoman 03:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I always thought that the stage play was set in the 1990s, partly due to all the "end of the millennium" talk, and partly because of Maureen's line about a "yellow rental truck, being packed in with fertilizer and fuel oil", which I always took as a reference to the first World Trade Center bombing (1993) and the Oklahoma City bombing (1995). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

 * A couple of other references that -- to me -- set the stage version in the 1990s:
 * "Like Thelma and Louise did when they got the blues...." (song: "Today 4 U"); Thelma and Louise was released in 1991. Curiously, this line went unchanged for the film, and is listed as an anachronism on IMDb.
 * "Newt's lesbian sister?" (song: "We're Okay); Candace Gingrich came into recognition in 1994, after her brother Newt became Speaker of the House.
 * ✮ Fredo (talk) 16:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Another reference that sets it in the 1990s. They discuss 3D IMAX screens. Did not exist in the 80s. 2601:248:4400:87E2:BD6D:CF1D:3A7B:BFAD (talk) 17:29, 21 September 2015 (UTC)D. Fowler

I don't thinkg there is an exact time for RENT. Jonathan Larson worked on it starting in 1989 (when he and Billy Anderson first came up with the idea) up until 1996 (it was first released in late Jan of 96--Off-broadway and then on Broadway on April 29th of the same year). Obviously certain happenings in the 90s influenced Larson, but there's no time setting given. -- Meghan
 * Well, no there's no explicit date given in the stage version (except for the passage of the year from one Christmas to the next), but the references mentioned above (as well as all the talk about "the end of the millenium") put it pretty clearly in the 1990s. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The stage play makes extensive use of cell phones (especially for Joanne and Benny), which were not in wide use in the late 80s-early 90s. Bigjeremy2k 13:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

In the movie, he says Dec. 25, 1989, and then a year later he says, Dec. 25, 1990. So that must be the time.

 * Yes in the *movie* but in the play Mark doesn't say that. To quote he says "December 24th 9 PM eastern standered time". In my opinion I would think the play to took place in the early 90's, judging by some of the dialouge. But...also in my opinion I thought the movie was a disgrace to RENT and it made me wanna gouge my eyes out but I digress. Point is you can't just take a line from one version as an example.- Laura

I have not personally seen the play version of Rent, but I cannot see anything wrong with the movie. I love it and it's one of my favourites, and I find it rude to say anything was bad enough to: "made me wanna gouge my eyes out." In the movie it says it starts December 24, 1989. It then continues until December 24, 1990, hence the line in Seasons of Love: "a year in the life of friends." So it is clearly set near to the end of the millenium and the dating that the movie/ play is set in is quite clear. - Alisha —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamahippie101 (talk • contribs) 21:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The play/Broadway version of Rent is most definitely set in the early 1990s based on all the evidence listed above. Additional evidence for the 1990s setting includes: costumes - Roger wears flannel which was an early 90s staple; looking at photos of the cast all outfits are clearly 90s/grunge style, not 80s clothing. In "Happy New Year" Maureen says "let me kiss your Doc Martens" - Doc Martens were very popular in early 90s grunge fashion. In her phone message, Alexi Darling references her email address, "or you can email me at darlingalexi newscom dot net" as well as giving her cell phone number - cell phones and email addresses were not in widespread use until the 1990s. The term "cyberarts" wasn't commonly used before the 1990s, and in fact, was tradmarked at that time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberarts#cite_note-1 Jonathan Larson described his show as "Rent is about a community celebrating life, in the face of death and AIDS, at the turn of the century." No one would describe the 1980s as the "turn of the century". Rent started workshopping in 1994 - it wasn't a period piece - it was supposed to be contemporary i.e. the show takes place in the early 90s. No one thought the show took place in the 80s until the movie came out. When I watched "La Vie Boheme" on TV at the 1996 Tony Awards, there was no doubt in my mind or anyone else's that this was taking place now, not in the past. It was revolutionary to watch those words being sung on national TV btw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renthead55 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Source for Mark?
There is a guy in real life whom the character in RENT named "Mark" is based on --his name is Paul Garrin, who among other things is known for breaking the story with his video of the infamous Tompkins Square Park Police Riot that took place in 1988 in the East Village, one of the events that inspired Jonathan Larson, who lived nearby on Avenue A, to author his play "RENT".

Paul Garrin became known as the "Man with a Video Camera", and could be seen carrying his video camera with him everywhere, often finding himself videotaping the police and the many riots that went down in the East Village during the 80's and early 90's. more about Paul Garrin: http://pg.mediafilter.org

see his famous clip "Man with a Video Camera": rtsp://stream.freethe.net/manwcam.mov or support him by buying his videotape "By Any Means Necessary" which chronicles the housing struggles in the East Village between 1988-1991 that inspired the story behind RENT. http://shadowshop.com go there and click on "video" (or "tapes). You can view a sample clip there, and order the video online.
 * Very intersting. Thank you for posting it! ▫ UrbaneLegend talk 23:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

principal characters section
Idina Menzel's winning a Tony for her role in Wicked is completely irrelevant. Skiasaurus 02:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree. Anything that doesn't deal with the actors' relations to the show should be removed. Locano 05:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Moved here from casting rumors section
Based on the success of the transfer of Broadway musicals to television and the difficulties getting the RENT film off the ground, an NBC television mini-series was planned with Neil Patrick Harris as Mark Cohen, Rikki Lee Travolta as Roger Davis, and Wilson Cruz as Angel. However, the rights were pulled so Chris Columbus could adapt the musical to film featuring much of the original Broadway cast.

 * Moviesonline seems to post anything, and the author 'David Easton' seems to be involved in astroturfing for one of the named actors, Rikki Lee Travolta (just google for their names) - also check Articles_for_deletion/Rikki_Lee_Travolta

Ehheh 19:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Tarp trivia
''In the song "Rent", Mark and Roger tear down the tarp on the ceiling. In the next shot immediately after they tear it down, Roger is seen dragging it off camera, not adding it to the trashcan (hence its presence through the rest of the film).''

This isn't a blooper. They're tearing the tarp down because there are holes in the glass ceiling above, and they're trying to let the smoke from their fire vent. --Wolf530 (talk) 18:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Cruft
This article includes a lot of information which, I think, qualifies as fancruft, or material that is too detailed and that generally does not appeal to readers outside of the circle of fans. I think that before anything else is done, this article should be trimmed to include only essential information and details. As is, the article is long and, to be brutally honest, a little over-involved. It has a lot of information to make a great article, and then some, and it's the "then-some" that detracts from the good stuff.

If you'd like any help, feel free to ask me. DroEsperanto 05:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Angle-today 4 u.jpg
Image:Angle-today 4 u.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 02:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Redirect Problem
Does anyone here know how to fix up the "Rent (musical)#Synopsis" in the "Plot" section? I tried to go: Rent (musical)#Synopsis|Rent (musical) but that didnt work. Does anyone else have any other suggestions?--Coin945 (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:RentMovie2005.jpg
Image:RentMovie2005.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Some small edits and an undo
I removed some adjectives from the article that are completely irrelevant, such as Mark's religion, as it has no effect on the story from the movie's perspective. The only relevance it had was a humorous voice mail from his mother that was cut from the movie. Also, I removed the tribute to Angel on the talk page - there was no reason for it to be there. Anonymous~Source (talk) 13:56, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Gross revenue
The gross revenue says $350,250,452 when IMDb and [http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808405627/info Yahoo! Movies] say that it is $29,077,547. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.146.118 (talk) 22:03, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced Material
Article has been tagged for needing references since 2011. Please feel free to reincorporate the below material with appropriate citations. Doniago (talk) 15:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="width:100%;font-size:88%;text-align: left; border: 1px solid silver; margin-top: 0.2em;" ! style="background-color: #CFC;" | Production Until 2001, Spike Lee was to direct the film for Miramax. However, budgetary constraints and Lee's insistence on engaging celebrities like Justin Timberlake and Brittany Murphy stalled the project for a time.
 * style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white; " |
 * style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white; " |

In October 2004, Revolution Studios recovered the project, with Chris Columbus as the director and Columbia Pictures as the distributor. Columbus, himself an NYU student and graduate at the turn of the 1980s, and in the location where the musical and film are set, felt a connection with the characters and their experiences. He can actually be seen in the beginning as an irritated driver who finds his car windshield being washed by a homeless man.

The first trailer for the film featuring the song "Seasons of Love" surfaced on various Rent fan sites in early June 2005. The trailer was said to be shown before the films Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith and Crash in select cities beginning June 3, 2005. MovieMusicals.net reported that the trailer would officially be released June 7, 2005, exclusively on America Online; the movie's official blog announced it would also air during the June 7 episode of Access Hollywood.

A second trailer was released on August 25, 2005, which featured some dialog from the film as well as music from the second part of the finale ("Finale B"). A third trailer aired during the September 2005 season premiere of Nip/Tuck, which contained new footage set again to "Seasons of Love."

The film's limited release date in New York City, Los Angeles, and Toronto on November 11, 2005 was canceled, and the official premiere was at New York's Ziegfeld Theatre.

Rating
In the US, the film has officially been rated PG-13 by the MPAA for "mature thematic material involving drugs and sexuality, and for some strong language". The rating was actually taken into consideration with creative decisions during script writing and filming. Even with changes (such as removing pervasive profanity), director Chris Columbus still expresses amazement that the film received a "PG-13" due to risqué scenes and content. In Canada, it is rated PG. In the UK, the film was rated 12A by the BBFC.
 * }

Single track listing
When did Glee's version get put on to the CD? They did their version way before the original was released. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.43.75 (talk) 14:18, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll take this a step further and ask whether this section is really appropriate for an encyclopedic article, especially as the entries do not have sourcing indicating how they are considered significant. DonIago (talk) 14:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

"Possibly" transgender?
Sounds unnecessarily wishy-washy to me, and we shouldn't include speculation in Wikipedia articles in any case. If we're sure Angel is transgender, remove the possibly; otherwise I suggest removing the clause altogether. I have concerns about how relevant it is to the overall plot of the film in any case. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 17:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

 * I believe that Angel identifies as a gay drag queen. Angels first appearance in both the show and the film are out of drag, and the rest of the cast use male pronouns at times in the film and show and this doesn't ever seem to bother Angel. I don't think that Larson ever categorically stated it either way, but Wilson Heredia did I recall state that he considered Angel as a drag queen not transgender. Also the films casting notes states "Angel, Latino, or Asian or mixed ethnicity, Male, Early teens to late 20's, High tenor or falsetto, Actor must be willing to play drag. A fun guy with lots of style". Also MTI (the current Rights holders) state Angel is "The eccentric HIV-positive street drummer. A drag queen with an incredible gift of dance and a magnetic personality. He becomes Tom's lover. Male, 20-30 yrs old - (http://www.mtishows.com/show_detail.asp?showid=000281) Jobscomforter (talk) 13:01, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Thanks! DonIago (talk) 19:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rent (film)


text: User:Poisonouslizzie

title: User:Poisonouslizzie


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Talk:Neutron economy

By what unit of measure is a neutron surplus or deficit measured. What happens to the protons ? Reactivity...used to mean interaction of an element with another element or molecule, not something that happens in pure isolation. This out of balance Reactivity sounds like junk. In the old days Critical / Supercritical refered to amounts of heat / temperature the reactor is coping with. Neutron surplus/deficits sounds silly, but I'm dealing with a high school education in the 1970s

External links modified (February 2018)
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Talk:James Flynn (academic)

Correction request
The section James_Flynn_(academic) currently states that his remarks were made to "illustrate a particular point." However, there is already an external link referenced by this article that includes a specific statement by Flynn that he used the remarks to "argue against" (quote) the line of thought/argument. This seems to be a significant qualitative difference from the way the section is currently phrased. Stephen.andrew.lynch (talk) 19:31, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

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strange sentence
This sentence makes no sense to me: He interprets the direct evidence—when Blacks are raised in settings that are less disadvantageous—as suggesting that environmental factors explain genetic differences. How can environment explain genetics? Is the intended meaning that environment, rather than genetics, explains the differences? It's hard to check because 1999 article published in American Psychologist isn't a proper citation.--46.114.145.103 (talk) 22:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I removed it. Given the sensitive nature of the topic, anything without a reliable source ought to be removed. Nerd271 (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I have restored it with a proper citation, which was very easy to find. The paragraph should be discussed on its own merits. Grayfell (talk) 05:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 * So that's the article in question. It was previously cited in the article, yet whoever first added that paragraph could not be bothered to repeat the citation. Thank you for clarifying. Nerd271 (talk) 14:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Flynn's Death
It's important to notate that Flynn has recently deceased. Even though I am a hereditarian, he was a great researcher and will be missed. Rest in Peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.108.172 (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

 * There seem to be no source for this edit anywhere online. If you cannot provide a source for his death, there is no basis for the edit and it should be reverted/not be made. Both I, and USER:Grayfell have explained this in edit notes, but have seemingly been ignored by several users. Again, this edit should not be made without a source. Skllagyook (talk)

 * I have heard the same today from several friends who were students of Flynn's. I expect to see a published obituary soon. —VeryRarelyStable 03:16, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The claim needs a source, and until an obituary or other source is puished, it should not appear/be made in this article (I notice someone has, again, just edited the article to include his death - again without a source). As several users have explained now, a source is required for the change. Skllagyook (talk) 03:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: I see a source has now been added. Skllagyook (talk) 03:36, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Imbalance
This article seems a little imbalanced. I'm aware that editing here might be contentious, so a few words. Flynn was certainly a well-intentioned scholar who fleshed out the effect which generally now bears his name. There seems a risk, however, that the article reflects the 'good hereditarian' versus 'bad hereditarian' perspective of what is sometimes referred to today as the Hereditarian Left. Flynn was in fact generous in acknowledging his debt to scholars he rated highly but who are elsewhere condemned in personal terms using Flynn's own theory - Arthur Jensen, Richard Lynn (part co-author of the theory itself), Charles Murray. He strongly supported research into race and intelligence. He was very vocal, recently and lucidly, about his view that racial inequality extends to a large degree from poor parenting amongst black people. Also recently, he argued that associative mating amongst black people led to lower IQ outcomes - this in effect put the genetic effect back into even his own theory. Finally, Flynn believed that a black-white gap would remain once the environment had been taken into account; his thesis was that the average genetic gap was small enough not to exclude black people from playing a full part in it, not that it did not exist at any level. These ideas are problematic today, of course. I have no wish to start a fight, but I do think this page needs adjusting to reflect not that Flynn was bad or wrong, necessarily, but that he had a great deal in common with authors often considered beyond the pale. Taken as a whole, this page, along with those on Lynn, Murray and others, risks creating a simplistic impression of good and bad guys I am quite sure Flynn would have deprecated. This also implies that the other pages (Lynn, Murray et al) need revising in the same way.

On this basis, and also the priciple of WP:BRD, I'm going to make a couple of actually less than bold adjustments. More than happy to discuss with anyone who reverts once. SteveCree2 (talk) 13:55, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I've made a first few changes. Removed praise in intro para to avoid need to insert balancing criticism there of his views of black parenting inferiority. Entered references to justify that Flynn viewed the claimed black-white IQ gap as largely environmental, not wholly (see remarks above). Included reference to Flynn's view of scholarship of Jensen et al. Since I've reverted a deletion of largely, I'll expand on that point. As per above, Flynn argued that associative breeding amongst black people led to lower IQ scores (citation is included in article) - this is a different claimed genetic effect but it is nonetheless obviously a genetic claim. In addition, as also cited (but not quoted in full in the article for brevity) Flynn used the rhetorical device of framing his opinion as a question but nevertheless his opinion is clear: "statistically, if there are differences (between racial groupings) it is quite minor". The point of the whole passage is to say that the minor difference does not stop black people participating fully in US society. (Best listening from 32.30 at citation). SteveCree2 (talk) 16:38, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you provide page numbers/quotes and/or timestamps from your source(s) (the podcast interview) where Flynn explicitly/ specifically states that the black-white gap is partly genetic? I cannot seem to find that (and the podcast is fairly long). I did however see the source of the "worse parenting" addition you made, thus I am not disputing/reverting that. Skllagyook (talk) 16:46, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

 * I have just listened to the podcast you added as a ref and referenced above (here: https://scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/nature-nurture-and-human-autonomy-with-james-flynn/) (where Flynn is interviewed). He does not state that some of the b-w IQ gap is genetic but he does characterize it as being largely environmental (with the rest unknown).
 * From around 25:46 in the podcast Flynn says that regarding "the present IQ gap ["between black and white"] there is enormous evidence that much of that gap is environmental", and (at about 25:55) says "we'll only know that all of it is [environmental] eventually" (meaning we don't yet know).

 * At about 32:12 Flynn says (regarding IQ genes between races), "if there are diffences, they're quite minor", a key word there being "if". He does not state that he believes there are such genetic differences, but rather that if there are (which he does not characterize as especially likely), they are/would be a minor/small part of the gap.

 * His position seems to have been that most of the gap is environmental (of which he was fairly confident) but did not know for sure whether or not all of the gap was. He does not state that part if the gap is genetic, but rather that we do not yet know whether the remaining minority portion of the gap is environmental or not. I could not find anything in the podcast or the other sources where he argued that that associative breeding amongst black people led to lower IQ scores. But from what I have seen/heard in the sources, it does seem supported to write, as you wrote, that he considered the gap to be largely environmental (he apparently considered the remainder to be possibly environmental but was unsure). So I will not dispute your wording there. Skllagyook (talk) 22:59, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, @Skllagyook. I'd cited 32:30 at the video. The associative breeding comment is a separate citation. That citation is from an acceptable WP source, but in turn cites Flynn's own book. @VeryRarelyStable - I have re-inserted the quote you felt was misleading. It really isn't. The whole of both citations (if you listen to the interview and read the other) are full of how Flynn accounts for the IQ gap through inferior black parenting and, indeed, associative breeding. Both sources are legitimate WP sources. There is no ambiguity at all. Flynn was quite literally never ambiguous about this matter. In addition, I've replaced the second 'along with' in the Flynn quote which someone has removed, incorrectly, perhaps for scansion'.
 * Where exactly does Flynn account for the b-w IQ gap through associative breeding? (Elsewhere, e.g. in the interview, he states that the gap could be fully environmental.) In what source does Flynn attribute (part of) the b-w gap to associative breeding, and could you please give a quote, page number, or timestamp? You still have not mentioned where he states that. Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 13:40, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@skllagyook 'Associative breeding' isn't in the article. It's implied (correctly, in my opinion) in the cited article. But I've put inserted "cognitively restricted subculture" because that's beyond question. SteveCree2 (talk) 13:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I know that you did not put selective breeding in the article, but fyi, if you were to do so (and it was not explicitly stated in a reliable source by Flynn), it would be a clear case of WP:OR/original research (and probably also WP:SYNTH) - i.e. editing based on your own interpretation of a source or sources rather than what the source(s) explicitly states, which is againsy Wikipedia policy. I do not agree that it is "implied" that Flynn considers part of the gap due to assortive breeding (I cannot know that for sure, but he never states it, and his other statements show that he considered the gap to possibly be wholly environmental, and was confident it was mostly so). Thus seemingly your previous statements that Flynn believed the gap was partly due to assortive breeding and that this opinion was clear and sourced were misleading and inacurate. (And if your purpose in making the "inferior parenting" addition was to imply something about assortive breeding in the article (when seemingly no such thing is stated by Flynn), I might have to agree with User:Generalrelative that the addition is WP:UNDUE (or at the very least should be reworked and contextualized). Skllagyook (talk) 16:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@skllagyook So it isn't in the fucking article, is it? What do you mean 'if I were to'? I fucking didn't, for the reasons articulated. Fucks sake. SteveCree2 (talk) 21:02, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

 * The purpose of this edit appears to be promotional rather than an effort to achieve WP:DUE balance. Wikipedia articles do not exist to promote editors' personal opinions or agendas. Generalrelative (talk) 16:04, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@generalrelative Your comments and edits are outrageous. No other editor has agreed with you. James Flynn argued extensively that black people make poorer parents than white, and that their culture was cognitively restricted. There is no doubt that this is controversial. You are whitewashing this article. Please stop it. I am reverting to include these details. You have suggested at my talk page that there is consensus to support your position; in fact there is no reference here to that effect from any other editor. SteveCree2 (talk) 16:11, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

 * I stated in my edit summary that I think the edit is WP:UNDUE, and that in the absence of consensus the onus is on you to build one before re-adding the disputed content. That's not an opinion, that's policy. You are welcome to feel about that any way you like. But you may not engage in an edit war, which is what you're now doing. Generalrelative (talk) 16:34, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@generalrelative Your reversions, which you quite falsely claim extend from the comments of other editors, are pure ad quite disgraceful racial bias. You are quite simply trying, singlehandedly, from a racial contentious series of remarks by James Flynn from appearing in the James Flynn article. I am reverting. SteveCree2 (talk) 16:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid I cannot parse this word salad. Are you accusing me of racial bias? Generalrelative (talk) 16:34, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@generalrelative Yes, I am unambiguously accusing you of racial bias. You have falsely claimed that other editors support your position. It is unquestionably controversial for James Flynn to have argued extensively, as he did, that black people make poorer parents than white and that they inhabit an inferior subculture. You are seeking to whitewash the James Flynn article. SteveCree2 (talk) 16:39, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I've removed the line In 2016, Flynn argued that black people in the US; "come from a cognitively restricted subculture" and told an interviewer; "The parenting is worse in black homes, even when you equate them for socio-economic status". (sourced to The Guardian). If this Guardian article is the only article where this Flynn quote appears, then I agree with the other editors that it's WP:UNDUE for inclusion in the Wikipedia article (it's also WP:PRIMARY for Flynn's opinion, since the source article is the interview in which the quote was said, and the only analysis comes from the interviewer). I'd feel differently if the quote was discussed by a number of other secondary sources, but if it's just this one Guardian interview, that's not enough for inclusion in my opinion. I actually think a second source is a minimum to meet WP:BLP for this controversial statement. Also, this was a bold addition you made that has been reverted multiple times by multiple editors; please don't re-instate it without consensus. I believe I'm the third editor so far to object to its inclusion, and no one else has agreed with its inclusion yet. Levivich 19:40, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

More generally, I agree the article is imbalanced. One of the problems is that it's pieced together from what are really primary sources. For example, the Jensen quote is a primary source for the Jensen quote; the Murray book jacket is a primary source for the Murray quote. Interviews with Flynn are primary sources for what Flynn said in the interview. The sources for this article should be biographies of Flynn, and only that which is talked about in the secondary RS should be included in the Wikipedia article. So if a secondary source (a biography of Flynn) mentions the Jensen or the Murray quotes, or a Flynn quote, then we should mention those quotes. But if not, we should not include those quotes cited to a primary source (to the quotes themselves): that's WP:UNDUE. If it's not important enough to be included in a biography of Flynn by an RS, then it's not important enough to be included in Wikipedia's biography, either. Levivich 19:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted the piece upon the disco here. If you don't accept the WP-acceptable source then I'll go the extra mile look out the obvious James Flynn book. I'm a grown-up, so I believe Peter Wilby. The Guardian and the WP standard, though. FFS. Why wouldn't you? SteveCree2 (talk)

Well, thanks, everyone. Saying that black people are inferior parents and live in an inferior sub-culture from whites is 'controfuckinrgversial' turns out to be objectionable to Wikipedia folk. What, really, is the fucking point? SteveCree2 (talk) 21:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * For those who don't have access to it, here's what NYT wrote about this: Here is the Skeptic interview, which has his full comments. I don't think the Guardian quote is DUE, but his views on the race IQ gap of course are, but those require some nuance, as opposed to cherrypicking selecting quotes. Given Flynn wrote entire books about this, it's hard to reduce his views to a single quote. And yeah, this is controversial, even according to the RSes like NYT (and Guardian for that matter). Levivich 22:45, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree it's a much better idea to look to the secondary sources and work off of how they summarize good positions, rather than picking quotes on our own. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

 * Something that's been consistently missed both in this discussion and in the quotes under dispute, and apparently by the Guardian interviewer as well: Flynn's controversial conclusions here refer to the Black subculture of the 1970s and 1980s when the studies he refers to were done, not to the Black subculture of 2016 when he gave the interview. Since that time Black people made gains in IQ faster than white people did, making up the gap by about 5.5 points, and Flynn was calling for the studies of Black home environments to be repeated to see if anything had changed there.  I stand by my edit summary: the sentence as it stood was misleading without context.
 * Particularly so since there is a trend these days, among the people who were Flynn's political opponents, to claim that the economic disparities between Black and white people in the US, and still more the disparities in their experiences of the justice system, are solely the fault of problematic elements of Black culture and that most or all apparent systemic racism would be resolved if Black people would only clean house. I am suspending my judgement as to whether this is was an implication intended by the editor who inserted the quote; but having read several of Flynn's books and had a couple of extremely enlightening conversations with him following his public lectures (enlightening to me, anyway; I'm not claiming to have enlightened him), I can state with complete confidence that Flynn did not hold any such view.
 * —VeryRarelyStable 02:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I expanded and reorganized the article, trying to keep as much of the original material as possible (but I certainly removed a bunch of it). Hopefully my edit summaries were sufficiently explainatory. It still needs a lot of copyediting, there's still material that is probably UNDUE, or over- or under-detailed, it needs a lead expansion, a bunch of the footer material needs cleanup... none of which I intend to do :-) But if someone else wants to pick it up from here, please do, with some more work it could be a WP:GAC. Or, revert it all :-) Cheers, Levivich 01:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@levivich @veryrarelystable @scottishfinnishradish @skllagyoo @generalrelative I've entered a line referring to Flynn's views about black culture, cognitive abilities and parenting. They're notable features of Flynn's work and certainly have strong racial implications which should be included unambiguously in what is I imagine we all agree is nevertheless a too-long article. I have cited the Guardian interview in order to avoid a primary source. The author is a writer of note; a former national newspaper editor writing in a newspaper of note which is a suitable citation source for WP. However, in order to help your consideration of the matter, I do include just a few primary source quotes here from just one of Flynn's books to illustrate that black cognitive inferiority and poorer black parenting was fundamental to Flynn's explanation for racial inequality today. Flynn argued, in many books and without ambiguity, that deprivation of itself could not explain racial inequality because the cognitive disparity and poorer parenting he ascribed applied once he had controlled for socio-economic variables. In other words, middle-class and rich people who identify as black show the same discrepancy when compared to their white and asian peers. These views are without question racially controversial today, my own view outright racist, and should be included in this article, in my view. If the consensus is that this is incorrect or should not be included, do revert. All the best. SteveCree2 (talk)

“I stand by my analysis of black culture as indicative that genetic equality is more likely that not” ('Does Your Family make you smarter?', 2018, p.153).

“We can compare...whites and blacks to find that a variety of contrasting cognitive competencies exist because, while both groups are exposed to modernity, the latter come from a cognitively restricted subculture” (ditto, p.125)

“blacks exercise their brains on complex cognitive problems less because their subculture demands that they solve such problems less often” (ditto, p.152)

“The parenting is worse in black homes, even when you equate them for socio-economic status” (Wilby in cited Guardian article). — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveCree2 (talk • contribs) 11:04, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

 * Still cherry-picked, still unrepresentative of Flynn's actual views, and still misleading without context. —VeryRarelyStable 11:16, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@veryrarelystable In what way are these comments cherry picked? What on earth is your justification for that? Flynn's books are quite literally all about how he rules out genetics because he accounts for the variation through black culture. I urge to take look at any of them; you might start with 'Does your family make you smarter, 2018, 'Where have all the liberals gone?', 2008 or 'A book to risky to publish', 2019. SteveCree2 (talk) 16:20, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

 * I've read several of Flynn's books, including Where Have All the Liberals Gone? I attended quite a few of his public lectures. I was in fact technically enrolled in his first-year Politics paper one year, but due to mental health issues I was having that year I only ever made it to one lecture. I can't claim to have known him personally exactly, as I only had a few conversations with him following those public lectures; but I have many friends and one or two family members who did.
 * So I can tell you for a certainty: Jim Flynn did not consider Black culture to be the root cause of the racial IQ disparity. He considered the history of slavery and segregation to be the root cause of the racial IQ disparity. He just admitted that some of the ways that that history continues to exert influence in the present are via the cultural defence mechanisms that slavery and segregation forced Black people to develop.
 * If you look at my previous comment here, you'll find I raised a further point which your new addition and comments have not addressed at all. You'll pardon me if this gives me the impression you didn't read it. Here it is again:
 * Something that's been consistently missed both in this discussion and in the quotes under dispute, and apparently by the Guardian interviewer as well: Flynn's controversial conclusions here refer to the Black subculture of the 1970s and 1980s when the studies he refers to were done, not to the Black subculture of 2016 when he gave the interview. Since that time Black people made gains in IQ faster than white people did, making up the gap by about 5.5 points, and Flynn was calling for the studies of Black home environments to be repeated to see if anything had changed there.
 * —VeryRarelyStable 21:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@veryrarelystable You've literally made that up! You should say, honestly, that you haven't read any of his books. Read part 2 (3 chapters) of the 2008 text you cite: 'Where have all the liberals gone?' entitled; 'Blacks and the pursuit of happiness'. There, in a whole chapter, he compares German and US born black children to argue that black culture is inferior (in the present tense). The first of those three chapters is explicitly all about, at painful length, the poor parenting he alleges of black women and their allegedly poor access to black male partners. In each of his books, he devotes chapter after chapter to black culture in the present tense. He argues in 'Does your family make you smarter? (2018, in the present tense) that that there remains an IQ gap (which I dispute, by the way) and puts that down to the environment changing faster than black people can adapt. The Guardian article quotes him saying such things in their interview. As you may know, Flynn's final book was withdrawn from publication in the UK because, as he acknowledged, it was feared it would still up racial hatred. I'm sorry you only made it to one of his lectures. I don't doubt that he was a super chap. But his whole argument - repeated in text after text - is that black sub-culture is inferior to white. If that looks racist today, it's because it is. It looks like that doesn't work for Wikipedia, though. So I'll leave the fanpage as it is. May I say, by the way, that I don't doubt your good intention. and I do hope you are well. All the best, SteveCree2 (talk) 07:37, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:James Flynn (academic)


text:
Talk:United States Navy Marine Mammal Program

confirmed kills
I'm deleting the claims of 42 kills during the vietnam war, unless someone can give some actual hard evidence to back it up 70.70.136.240 22:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Initial Comments
I really think this page should have some mention about the US Navy's rejections of the 'dart gun dolphins' story. The navy claims not to even have a dolphin training facility in the gulf region, the only one being in San Diego. The dolphins that were lost during Katrina were apparently from amusment parks.

However a picture of a dolphin from the Austin Powers movie would look fantastic. - (Unsigned)

I clarified the "dart guns" bit a little, and added some pics I took in San Diego. I think we can assume that any Austin Powers pics would be copyrighted, unfortunately. - Johantheghost 14:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Upon further research, I decided that the comments about "This highly secretive experiment" are a little unjustified. After I found the NMMP's web site, that is! I've now expanded the article considerably, while trying to keep NPOV. — Johantheghost 00:43, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, from what I can tell from previous reviews and the nomination for featured article, this one has come a long way indeed. Having sat in on a briefing and tour of the facility in San Diego back in 2002, there's nothing that I can remember from the information I heard that isn't already on this page. What piqued my interest the most was the part on the dolphins being used as active agressors. When someone in my tour group asked that very question, the response he got from one of the trainers was "that's classified." Just my little input. --- Maverick 07:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Cetacean Intelligence Mission
This article was originally titled Cetacean Intelligence Mission, the purported name of the NMMP. I renamed the article when I found the program's web site, and its official name.

Now I've relegated the original Cetacean Intelligence Mission title to a small snippet at the bottom of the article. The reason for this is that I can't find any mention of this title on the web that doesn't seem to originate from Leo Sheridan, who is described by Museum of Hoaxes as "The Observer's resident crackpot-on-call". I can't justify citing this as an alternative name for the program on one person's say-so, specially in the face of the NMMP's own highly-informative website. Sheridan also makes factual errors such as saying that the Navy launched the NMMP in 1989 with the approval of President George Bush — as opposed to 1960. — Johantheghost 20:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

AMMPA Accreditation
Just to explain the AMMPA situation, for the record (since I have a source — a private email — that I don't think I can quote in the article).

I have been trying to establish exactly what standard of animal care in the NMMP is guaranteed by external oversight. The front page of the NMMP's website features the AMMPA logo with the text:

 * "The Navy's Marine Mammal Program is an accredited member of the Alliance of Marine Mammal Parks and Aquariums, an international organization committed to the care and conservation of marine mammals. Accreditation by the Alliance means this facility meets or exceeds all the standards of excellence for marine mammal care, husbandry, conservation and education."

This seems like a pretty good example of external oversight, and implies standards based on what you would expect from an animal park. So, I would expect AMMPA accreditation to exclude invasive experimentation, for example. However, I emailed AMMPA to ask them about this, and they said that their accreditation of NMMP was based purely on NMMP being accredited by AAALAC. Since AAALAC sets standards for the care of lab animals, this is a lot less impressive — specifically, it would not rule out invasive experimentation, as far as I can see (the AAALAC web site pretty well dodges away from explaining what their accreditation actually means, which is a huge cop-out as far as I can see; but the program description that I refer to in the article seems to cover it).

Now, the Navy does make clear, on their Marine Mammal Health Care page, that:

 * "The NMMP is accredited by the Association for Assessment and Accreditation of Laboratory Animal Care International (AAALAC). AAALAC is a nonprofit non-regulatory organization that promotes high standards of animal care and use, improves laboratory animal well-being, and enhances life sciences research through accreditation."

So I don't think that the Navy is being misleading here, or I would have made a bigger issue of it. I also have absolutely no reason to believe that the Navy is doing any kind of invasive experimentation on its animals. I am disappointed that AMMPA, which is supposed to be about parks and aquariums, accepts AAALAC accreditation, when according to its own website

 * AMMPA "... is an international association representing marine life parks, aquariums, zoos, research facilities, and professional organizations dedicated to the highest standards of care for marine mammals ..."

and further

 * "Only those aquariums, zoos, oceanariums, research institutions, and marine life parks that aspire to the Alliance's high ideals will be accepted as members of the association."

But that's another story. AMMPA may be doing / have done additional examination of NMMP, but the email I got from them (which was pretty brief) implied not.

So, I think that the above is way too long-winded to put in the article, which I think captures the essentials in the "Welfare" section. But that's the background for anyone who's interested.

— Johantheghost 11:29, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

A relevant point for animal welfare is that the NMMP uses an IACUC to approve protocols for care and research, and the IACUC has membership from outside the NMMP. I've added a couple of sentences to reflect this. -- Wesley R. Elsberry 10:59 22 March 2006 (PDT)

 * That's very useful info, thanks. Do you have a reference for that that we could cite? — Johan the Ghost seance 18:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of irrelevant material
I deleted this text (following)from the "Attack Missions" section as I felt it was irrelevant - it felt like justification for a POV rather than providing information about the US NMMP. (MarkG 20 Dec 2005).

"The U.S. Navy has an arsenal of more conventional weapons which can be used to attack enemy ships in harbor, such as the Mark 48 torpedo, the Mark 67 submarine-launched mobile mine, and the Mark 60 Captor mine. A single attack submarine could deliver up to forty Mark 67 mines in one mission, each carrying a 230 kg warhead, at a distance up to 5–7 miles (8–10 km)."

 * I disagree (as presumably would those who contributed to the peer review, and the Featured Article Candidate processes); this is a valid rebuttal of the idea that it makes sense to strap a mine onto a dolphin and send it into an enemy harbour. If those other systems didn't exist, it might make sense, but they do. — Johantheghost 15:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * BTW, if you logged in, we could discuss this further. — Johantheghost 15:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I tend to agree with MarkG, for what it's worth. Leithp (talk) 15:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I have to disagree. This is a direct response to the text:
 * "There has been significant speculation that Navy dolphins are trained in attack missions, such as direct attacks against swimmers in the water or attaching limpet mines to enemy ships in harbor".

This point needs to be responded to, as many people seriously believe it, and there have been articles on this theme published in the mainstream media (notably the Observer). Someone who doesn't know about the relevant military hardware could easily think that a dolphin with a limpet mine on its back makes sense, and would be too attractive for the military to ignore. Some who does know about the capabilities of the Mark 67 submarine-launched mobile mine and the Mark 60 Captor mine might very well decide to form a different opinion, and I think they deserve the opportunity to do that. — Johantheghost 15:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * However, they might have one advantage over conventional naval weaponry: a human sonar operator would be unable to distinguish between a dolphin-bomb and a wild dolphin. Oktal (talk) 18:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Re-reading it, I remember that that paragraph used to have some text directly linking it to the main point, by saying that these weapons are more consistent/reliable etc. than dolphins; I think that made the paragraph feel more integrated, and less tacked-on. The text got removed during peer review — I think because it's kind of hard to justify, even though I think it can be justified on the basis of being obvious (forty self-guided mines can outperform a couple of dolphins that a sub could carry). Maybe a way could be found to put that back in. How about:
 * "... could deliver up to forty Mark 67 mines in one mission, each carrying a 230 kg warhead, at a distance up to 5–7 miles (8–10 km). This is a significantly more powerful and more consistent capability than could be realised by the use of dolphins (presumably submarine-delivered to an enemy harbor)."

— Johantheghost 16:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Sounds good to me. Leithp (talk) 16:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I edited what was discussed here. Didn't realize until afterwards that this part of the article was under discussion. I can see the possible relevance of the first part about the alternatives methods of attack, but the second sentence that has details about how many mines and the distance they can be dropped seems to be extraneous information that seems irrelevant to the main subject itself. Jwlee 19:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Saying that the Navy has mines isn't a big deal. But saying that a single sub can send 40 of them into a harbour from 5 miles away puts the "dolphin limpet mines" story into proper perspective, which is the point. — Johantheghost 19:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I've now made the change discussed above, to try to clarify why this para. is there. — Johantheghost 19:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

In the "In the Media" section it describes dophlins as "intelligent" animals. Is that an accurate word to use? I do not believe it fits the Wikitionary defenition of intelligence. There also have been scientific studies to the contrary. --Tmchk 22:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thumb
Why the arbitrary thumb sizes? Since it's on the main page right now I don't want to change it... but, all of the pictures are big enough (300px wide+) to allow for user defaults to take precedence. gren グレン 16:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the comment. The answer is: simple ignorance on my part.  (Didn't know about the user pref for thumbnails.)  Feel free to break a piano over my head.  I'll fix this... maybe tomorrow when we aren't under massive attack by hordes of vandals. — Johantheghost 16:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Haha, :) I didn't know for the first at least 6 months I was here... So, you're ahead of me if that's saying anything. gren グレン 03:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Cool... ;-) Anyhow, I've fixed it.  Cheers for the heads-up!  — Johantheghost 12:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

24 hours of hell
Well, the front page experience is over. Here are some stats which may be of interest. In 24 hours on the Wikipedia front page:

 * we had 207 edits
 * 79 were vandalism
 * 86 were reverts / fixes
 * 26 (13%) were useful, constructive changes
 * 16 were non-vandalistic but detrimental changes

Of the vandalism edits:

 * 68 (86%) were from IP-address users
 * 11 were from 5 persistent vandals, who have mostly been blocked

I calculate that the article was in a vandalised state for over 48 minutes, which means that 3.3% of people visiting Wikipedia for the first time and clicking on "Today's featured article" would have been presented with a giant picture of a penis, or something similar.

I'm grateful to the many people who helped to police the page and keep it clean — for most of the time. What a shame that all that effort couldn't have been directed into cleaning up articles, starting wanted articles, fixing POV issues, etc. — Johantheghost 14:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Escaped Dolphins?
It's probably an Urban Myth, but here in the UK we heard that some of the dolphins trained to clear mines escaped when they were supposed to be clearing them, is there any truth to this and even if not, is it worth mentioning that it's an urban myth? - TomM
 * As far as I know, one dolphin went missing in the Gulf when clearing mines, but came back later. The media made a fuss about it, but I didn't really feel it was particularly significant.  (BTW, I'm here in the UK too!  Freezing in Inverness.)  — Johantheghost 12:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Some fictional stories have dolphins escape. The fiction is the source of the partial myth. They can retire. Titles escape me at the moment. The dolphin community know the details better. 143.232.210.150 (talk) 23:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

featured article
hi all,

i am user in the hebrow wikipedia. in our wikipedia, this article is a featured article. can you put the star near the interwiki to hebrow?

thanks,

88.152.180.80 19:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * No, that's not how the star works. As far as I know there is no facility for putting stars next to interwiki links.  I suggest you raise this idea at Village pump (proposals). — Johan the Ghost seance 20:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * that near the bottom does that. Rich  Farmbrough 22:39 7  May 2006 (UTC).
 * Yes. I believe that feature was created after my previous comment. — Johan the Ghost seance 22:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

NMMP Research
I'm a bit disturbed at the lack of notice in this article concerning the extent of basic scientific research that has been conducted under the auspices of the NMMP. There is an extensive record of scientific publications that were produced throughout the existence of the NMMP; the first external link given goes to a page with the introduction to the annotated bibliography. These were work products that were public knowledge, with many of them published even when the program itself was classified. To incorporate this properly will require more than cosmetic change to the page. -- Wesley R. Elsberry 11:06 22 March 2006 (PDT)

 * It's a very good point -- but couldn't we cover this quite well with a paragraph or two under "The program"? We don't need to go into it too exhuastively, I think, at least to begin with.  — Johan the Ghost seance 17:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The problem is that the significance of the record of research conducted under the auspices of the NMMP is not some module that can be mentioned in a couple of appended or inserted paragraphs. The existence and notability of the research undercuts the POV parts of this article that credulously accept paranoid fantasies about the NMMP as being still on the table. Those POV-pushing parts need to be removed, as well as noting the research. --Wesley R. Elsberry 05:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Agree completely with W. R. Elsberry. At minimum, at least cite (provide the link to) the Annotated bibliography of publications from the U.S. Navy's Marine Mammal Program. (TD 627, Revision D). San Diego, CA: Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego.

http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/td/627/ This could go in the text or in the references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.5.219 (talk) 07:33, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Dolphin Doctor
The canonical source for Dr. Ridgway's book is his web site, Dolphin Doctor. I was a doctoral student of Ridgway's, and I am the technical contact for the domain. --Wesley R. Elsberry 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Attack section...does not make sense
Sentences do not flow, disjointed and make little sense. Also, the section only has one citation, regarding the line "The navy claims that since dolphins cannot discern the difference between enemy...appropriate response". The rest is uncited and presents unrelated arguements with original research, eg: the attack sub line. Also... "There has been significant speculation that Navy dolphins are trained in attack missions, such as direct attacks against swimmers in the water or attaching limpet mines to enemy ships in harbor. This is also a popular theme in fiction. The “Swimmer Nullification” program is a major thorn in the Navy’s side. But, ex-employees of the dolphin program have explained in detail how the technology works(what technology, "Swimmer Nullification"?). After the war, the Navy developed a “silencer” system so that the sensitive hearing of the dolphins would not be affected if 45 cal. slugs and shotgun shells were used in the nosecones. (shot from dolphins, or shot at dolphin?) All three options are now available for dolphin use against swimmers depending on the needs of any secret operation.(?) Other benign devices are also available and are generally shown to the public in sanitized presentations.(such as?)"

anyone got any idea what that means? if so, any citations? Iciac 06:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed this section. I think, if it gets put back in, we should include a link to aluminum foil hats protecting from government mind control rays. That's a pretty pressing concern, you know.

I totally acknowledge the possibility that animals have been trained in more unsavory activities, but there is absolutely nothing cited to support this, and even the Observer article cited later is hazy at best, and talks about unspecified sources of "experts" in the field of...? Dolphin assassin training?

Point is, this section is not appropriate to Wikipedia at all.

Jordanp (talk) 23:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Part of the stuff apparently conflates and confuses the inventions of C. Scott Johnson for personal SCUBA anti-shark deterrents with the NMMP. Johnson also did research with the NMMP, as in the canonical bottlenose dolphin behavioral audiogram that he published in 1967. That doesn't mean that dolphins got outfitted with "bang sticks" or similar gadgets. Most likely, some journalist just didn't keep up with Johnson. --Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 13:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Location
Another location used in the past was NAS Point Mugu. There were two concrete ponds approximately 30 feet in diameter near Mugu Lagoon, with a channel opening to the lagoon. When I saw them in the early 1970s, they appeared to have been unused for several years.LorenzoB (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I have seen them irl
They are even COOLER than like watching a dolphin documentary. They are so wild and frisky. Love them! (this is slightly non forumish since there might be some way I could help the article, pretty unlikely though.)05:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Use of word "sanitized"
The mine clearing section says that some demonstrations are "sanitized for the public" - what does this mean? It implies that non-public operations are somehow different (and perhaps more sinister) than the public demonstrations. If this is what is meant, it should be clarified. If something else is meant, another word should be used. -Etoile ✩ (talk) 22:14, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Use of Pt. Loma photo
This is not a very good photo or way to show the extent of the facility. As the Israelis did with their nuclear facilities, one would surround a sensitive facility with trees to obscure a view. The water makes this easier. Instead this photo should be replaced with an overhead aerial image from google Earth/maps or terraserver. In comparison to other dolphin activities this facility is HUGE, and you can see dolphins, whales, and probably sea lions, in the water just below the surface in these images. 143.232.210.150 (talk) 00:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Copyvio
Is there any reason why this book looks so similar to this article?  User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 03:08, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

 * Because someone took this article and printed it as a book. CMD (talk) 08:00, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

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text:
Talk:Murry Wilson

Comment
Murry gave Brian some suggestions regarding the chorus of "Break Away" as to what would work in his opinion and what would not. That is why he is credited. The song is Brian's, not Murry's.

 * Murry wrote the lyrics, as "Reggie Dunbar". This has been established for decades. Andrew G. Doe (talk) 08:01, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Funeral?
Brian Wilson claims to have attended his father's funeral when Howard Stern interviewed him in 1998. The source claiming otherwise is a nonexistent Google Cache entry.

The Howard Stern interview: http://content.music.myspace.com/music.ashx?bandid=61241821&songid=8270856&name=BuggedAtMyOlMan

Tarcieri 06:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

In the Stern Interview, Brian appears to merely say what Stern want's him to say. Much earlier footage of Brian from mid 1970s has him saying emphatically that he did not attend his father's funeral.

 * This comment has nothing to do with the article... Talk about "what goes round, comes round."  Unmarked grave, disowned by his family.  Wow.  That is a sad cautionary tale for any aspiring father.  Be careful what you ask for.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.39.86 (talk) 00:29, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

=divorce=

That happened in 1966, per what is already written in the body of the article. Hence the reason I changed the dates in the marriage in the box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.251.169.69 (talk) 19:08, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I clicked the wrong link and didn't intend to revert your original edit. --hulmem (talk) 20:58, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:06, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The Beach Boys (8794913159) (wide).jpg

title: Talk:Murry Wilson


text:
Ulpio Minucci

Ulpio Minucci (June 29, 1917 – March 9, 2007) was an Italian-born American composer and musician.

Minucci wrote a number of popular hits in the 1950s, including "Domani," "A Thousand Thoughts of You," and "Felicia." He was nominated for two Emmy Awards for his work on ABC's Saga of Western Man in 1964 and 1965. He is also well known among anime fans as the composer of the theme and musical score for the 1985 animated television series Robotech.

He also played piano on Round Trip, a 1974 jazz album by Japanese saxophonist Sadao Watanabe.

In January 10, 1989, he attempted to sue Frank Agrama and Harmony Gold, Inc. for alleged copyright infringement and various other claims. The case was dismissed March 1, 1989, without motion to appeal.

Minucci married his wife Catherine in 1952 with whom he had a son, Chieli, and a daughter, Nina. Chieli Minucci became an Emmy-winning jazz guitarist, who recorded covers of some of his father's songs. Ulpio Minucci died of natural causes at his home in Brentwood, Los Angeles, California on March 9, 2007. He was survived by his wife, children, and three grandchildren

Works

 * Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles (2006) – original theme
 * Robotech: Battlecry (2002) – original theme
 * Robotech II: The Sentinels (1988) – original theme
 * Robotech: The Movie (1986) – original theme
 * Robotech (1985) – composer
 * The White Lions (1981) – music supervisor
 * The Day That Shook the World (1975) – musical director
 * Saga of Western Man (1964) – composer

title: Ulpio Minucci