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Talk:Tool (band)/Archive 2

Independence Day
Seem to recall something about someone in the band working on the CG for independence day during their legal tribbles. Might have been subterfuge or chaffe, of course. No mention of it in the article currently. -Ozzyslovechild 01:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

About the trivia removal
02:47, 11 January 2006 71.143.113.16 (?Trivia) 04:06, 11 January 2006 Hellboy1975 m (rv CS reference. Is it really relevant, or just link spam? discuss) I just added it there cause i interpret trivia as a little, "Did you know" column.
 * It just seemed to me as though it really didn't have much to do with Tool as such. I mean if that goes up there then anyone who's name a server, dog, cat or whatever after Tool will be wanting stuff there. hellboy 06:08, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Imho, it does not belong into the article. The article should be about Tool or things very closely related to Tool. These servers don't have anything to do with Tool besides that their maintainer seems to be a Tool fan therefore I approve of the removal. The Trivia section should stick to trivia surrounding Tool... interpret it as a "Did you know this about Tool?" Otherwise it would definitely get crowded pretty soon..--Johnnyw 11:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The 4th Album
Creating a new article called the 4th album is going a little bit too far isn't it? hellboy 23:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I moved the article The 4th Album to Aldaraia. I just found out at Absolutepunk.net that it would be the title. Mike Garcia 03:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh my GOD. This again??--Cassius987 17:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Well it's been officialy announced, so I added it to the discog section..Rehevkor 00:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC) I have a hunch that "10,000 Days" is the April Fools day joke. Just keep your eyes open, becuase April 1st seems to be Tool's favorite holiday, and there is nothing else that even looks like it could be the joke on the website...66.233.97.81 05:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)AM
 * Ok, I guess it's probably not a hoax, just the single's "release date" and the "preview", but you never know with that band68.238.131.138 21:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

let's kick it up another notch (good article)
As you probably have noticed, the article is currently undergoing quite a bit of formal and cosmetic changes. I am trying to get this article to a s.th. like a featured status, with the next step being the acceptance as a good article. In order to do so, I am currently working on the following tasks. I have marked the one I believe am finished with, if you'd like to help, please go ahead. If you want to reverse or drastically edit any of my changes, please be so kind and discuss these changes here. Thank you folks. If you have any suggestions and such, just add your comment to the respective task (don't forget to sign your comments!) --Johnnyw 16:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC) Tasks:
 * new introductory paragraph
 * Status: done underway done
 * Comments: I added a new introductory paragraph, which was then kindly revised by Cassius. I haven't found the time to read my old paragraph over again to compare, but it looks fine to me now =) --Johnnyw 16:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Apologies about messing up the layout of your comment, but I'm commenting about this part specifically. I think the new introduction sucks. The old one (a.k.a. the second paragraph, I think) provides two pretty external links to back up its claims, flows with the paragraph much better, and seems to be written very much the "neutral" way.
 * "While they have gained much appreciation and praise for a complex and ever-evolving sound, they attract fewer listeners than other popular rock acts,""While" sounds out of place (perhaps not to everybody). Do you have a link to some stats or a survey or something about the "fewer listeners"? How can you be so sure?
 * Yes of course I do. All that is said in the introduction should be more or less a summary of the content that follows. "Fewer listeners" is related to the interview with Keenan about genre and more mainstream bands. Specifically, he says: ""When you hear about all the bands who claim to be influenced by us selling 10 times as many records than we are, no, I don't think we're selling that many records," says Keenan.
 * "arguably because Tool's music is not as accessible."What does that mean? It's "not for the masses" or it's "not in the stores" or are they underground or show their attitude towards the commercialised world or what?
 * Quoting that same article "And although it's been remarked upon many times, the fact that they can sell out venues and top charts across the world remains one of the great mysteries of the modern world. For here is a band that deals in complex musical landscapes, refuses to play any of the industry games, and is as far removed from what's considered musically popular these days as you can get. The fact that they sell any records at all is a huge triumph of substance over style."
 * "Their catalogue encompasses multiple creative cycles of innovation, due in part to long and relatively secretive dormancies from the music landscape between the release of each album and return to concert tours."Do you have any examples? Links?
 * This should be ovious, considering their 4-5 yrs break between Aenima-Lateralus-Whateverthenextalbum.
 * OK, it is indeed just the intro. If there are already links provided somewhere down the article, add them in the summary, no, they won't be redundant. It should say stuff like city, date, members, some albums that most people consider to be "well known" (on the other hand, everyone has an opinion, so if you'd like to avoid silly revert wars, leave that out.), etc. Leave the philosophy for the rest of it, the intro needs to be as concise as possible and loaded with factual info. -- parasti (talk) 03:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There was an earlier version of the introductory paragraph which was written by me, bot net yet revised by Cassius. It read: "Tool differs from many of its contemporaries in various ways. Until today, the band goes through years encompassing creative cycles with the band resurfacing from these long dormancies on the music landscape with releasing another successful album and headlining festivals worldwide. Still, the band shuns publicity and spotlight in the meantime. While they gain much appreciation and praise, they attract less listeners than other popular rock acts, certainly in part because Tool's music is less accessible to most listeners." It would not be a big deal to substantiate what's said with further notes.
 * To sum it all up, I'll try to incorporate the following facts in the introductory paragraph, as you suggested (city, date, members) and rewrite it a bit. Please continue to add any criticism to the talk pages, your input is really appreaciated! --Johnnyw 11:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * new version: I've finished writing a new version of the introduction, that I am actually quite fond of. It relates to the beginning of the band's biography, and incorporates some more references. Imho, it reads nicely too. --Johnnyw 17:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I love it. Keep up the good work, hope you'll make it to FA. -- parasti (talk) 23:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * GREAT new intro Johnny. A definite keeper.--Cassius987 02:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --Johnnyw 17:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * new discography layout
 * Status: done
 * Comments: done using wiki syntax. looks good to me, is easier to maintain then old html-tables. --Johnnyw 16:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * references / notes
 * Status: 90% done -> Arguments about genre etc. needs check
 * Comments: added a whole lot of notes.. please check if there are any substantial facts that are not verifiable yet --Johnnyw 16:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * different images, fair use rationales
 * Status: underway
 * Comments: I am currently trying to find some pictures that are more illuminating than just the album covers. Also, we need to check the Fair use rationales of all pictures. Afaik, the use of every single album cover inside the article is a bit excessive use of fair use. --Johnnyw 16:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I am still looking for some concert ticket, or poster from the King Crimson/Tool tour to replace the Lateralus cover. I thought that would do very nicely. Any thoughts on this? Any other suggestions if we are unable to come up with an image? --Johnnyw 17:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. I added concert poster of one of the King Crimson / Tool gigs to the Lateralus-era history. --Johnnyw 11:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

 * (proposal) moving "arguments about" to it's own article, reduce article size
 * Status: discussion on ice
 * Comments: Since the Tool article now already exceeds 40kb, I am proposing to move the Arguments about genre etc. to a new article, where the discussions regarding categorizations of bands are represented, with the controversy surrounding tool being mentioned as one section. then, replace this section with a summary. what do you think, is there enough material to warrant this article? for example, our article states that king crimson themselve "challenge the entire notion of the genre". Any thoughts on this? --Johnnyw 16:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As Johnny knows, the Genre section is sort of my baby, at least to some small extent. That said, if it needs to go, it should go. I think at least a summary would be appropriate to stay here, however, since the section, if we would all recall, was born out of a dire need to stop getting spammed back and forth by people who thought Tool were either a) 100% prog or b) 100% nu metal. It wouldn't be there without a purpose, so if we can trim it but keep its function, good; if we would lose its function, let's not trim it.--Cassius987 17:39, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point. Either create a new article AND write a decent summary or leave as is. Right now, it does not seem as if there are that many ppl anxious to start an article like that.. (see the link below).. --Johnnyw 17:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Due to the 'overwhelming' response to my idea, I decided to give a shit and call it off. Nevertheless, I would be most grateful if any of you could find the time to check the coverage on the discussion for verifiabilty. There are several facts in that section that I was unabel to verify, even after some extensive search for sources. For example: "Even the most commonly cited prog bands, such as Rush, Pink Floyd and Emerson, Lake & Palmer, challenge the entire notion of the genre by pointing out either implicitly or in their own words the vast differences in sound and style between each of the so-called "prog bands"". Please remove anything that could not be verified and rewrite any parts to go with the sources you might find. If you need help with citation styles, just add the link and I will do the formatting. Thank you guys... --Johnnyw 17:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've proposed a new article that could incorporate most of this section at the talk pages of Music genre, see Talk:Music genre--Johnnyw 01:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * readling list (removal?/edit?)
 * Status: underway done (removed, link added to trivia)
 * Comments: After posting this I will have exed the reading list section--I think we all know it was just taking up space and quite unnecessary. If nothing else, it could be mentioned and sourced in the trivia section.--Cassius987 17:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice to see you again, mate! I think the reading list is probably the most "useless" piece of information. While there are some quite good books on that list, it nevertheless does not add THAT much info about the band ITSELF. --Johnnyw 17:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly! And let me just take this opportunity to thank you once again for constantly improving the article, Johnny.--Cassius987 02:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Sound samples
 * Status: underway done?
 * Comments: I am currently looking for some nice samples. It's not that easy to butcher some 1min clip out of a Tool song, but I have a list of candidates that I will publish here. I would gladly hear your thoughts, so that we might agree on some to prevent some heavy debates ;) I would focus on the songs that are mentioned in the article, to include samples along with the history section instead of appending a new sound sample section. This way the article would benefit from the samples much more. --Johnnyw 17:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I added "Prison Sex", "Aenema", and "Parabola". Hope you approve. --Johnnyw 11:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

tour dates
tour dates have absolutely nothing to do in an encyclopedia. fans should check them on related websites. please remove them. Unixer 19:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Although I do not know the guideline proposing this, I removed the dates. I agree, that in retrospective, tours should just be summarized. Maybe it's a bit too much listing them all.. the link will probably do fine. --Johnnyw 19:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with not having tour dates, if they must be included then I'd recommend a separate page. The Tool article is long enough without having hundreds of dates on it.  Perhaps a new article covering Tool tours could be created, including dates, locations, support acts, guests etc. hellboy 01:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * ummm, no :-) Unixer 13:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Care to elaborate on "ummm, no"? hellboy 01:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that essentially, fans should just look up dates themselves. All we need to provide is an external linkage. We can summarize and describe tours, but there is no need to list dates.--Cassius987 17:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not? Isn't our goal to be some bastion of comprehensive knowledge? Dimwell 01:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Name Etymology
Isn't "Name Etymology" redundant? I think "Etymology" by itself worked. But that's just me, any thoughts?--Cassius987 20:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought so too. "Name derivation" would be fine, or just etymology. I never knew there could be any etymology but name etymology... Johnnyw 12:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

"Opiate" only about organized religion?
It's just a small clarification I'd like to discuss with you, still I need your feedback on this. Kane5187 kindly revised a tiny bit of the introduction, which I'd like to discuss here. The sentence in question is as follows, I've highlighted the relevant part: "They are known for addressing philosophical and spiritual issues in their lyrics, such as evolution ('Forty-Six & 2'), organized religion ('Opiate') and transcendence ('Lateralus') [...]"

My question is, does "Opiate" only relate to organized religion, or religion itself? Since the reference Tool makes here is Marx' Opium of the people-quote, I assumed it relates to religion itself, since this is what the quote is about. My version therefore did solely include religion. Tool's main point is obviously not to give your free will in the hands of some saviour; It's possible that Tool used this reference anyways w/o implying more than is obvious, due to only partly knowing this particular writing, but it seems improbable to me. (A very short explanation: Marx wrote about the people clinging to religion to find comfort in and reduce their suffering — to cling to a fantasy — because it is not easy to understand and therefore most people do not understand the causes of their suffering. Marx' main argument is not to say that organized religion is used to quiet people down, as many people erroneously think.) Any thoughts? --Johnnyw 18:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * How Maynard interprets it (for Tool) is this: churches instill middlemen between God and the faithful. Songs like Opiate are about those middlemen, not really about God. There are several articles where he says this, but I can't think of any links--someone back me up if you know what I'm talking about.--Cassius987 20:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I didn't realize that he had in mind that particular interpretation, but I'd say that fits in with the "organized" part of religion -- God is religion, and according to Maynard, it gets mucked up when humans try to put their own structures in there. Dylan 21:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I see your concern. The reason why I changed it is mainly because Tool and MJK are no strangers to religion: they're very deeply involved occult spiritual philosophies, and although I can easily see them having qualms about referring to their beliefs as "religion," I think it's a more or less accurate title. I completely agree with your interpretation of the song, but my impression has always been that "Opiate" refers to organized religion and definitely not to the kinds of beliefs that MJK holds. In retrospect, I can see that this might step too far over original research / editor's own opinion / unverifiable territory. But my view is that the song treats religion so harshly that labeling its subject as just "religion" makes it seem as though MJK is attacking every single kind of supernatural belief, while he himself holds some. Elements in the song like "someone strong to guide you" and "born to follow" imply that there is a structure to the "opiate" that he's attacking, not an individualistic approach as seen his own practices.

 * Feel free to revert if you'd like -- it's not an edit I feel particularly passionate about -- but I thought that leaving its subject as solely "religion" conflicts with the stated philosophies of the band's members. Perhaps "Christianity" would be better? (the song may imply more, but Jesus is the only identifiable figure that can be tied to a particular faith). Dylan 18:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your input, I do understand your point of view. But I felt rather assured that my opinion was correct, especially due to this passage from the song
 * "My God's will becomes me. When he speaks out, he speaks through me. He has needs like I do. We both want to rape you."
 * which equates the deity with the prophet. Nevertheless, I see that Dylan's argument about Tool's own rather spiritual approaches to things is in some way religious. If this qualifies as original research to state so, I don't know.... *taking a quick glance at the tool faq* toolshed says: "the band makes fun of the way people let others think for them. That is, it's one thing to have religious beliefs, but it's another thing to let someone else interpret those beliefs and force them on you." Worshipping a religion is actually not that much different from following the orders of a "saviour", since every religious beliefs involves "truths" that you cannot verify. (see Flying Spaghetti Monsterism). Nevertheless, I guess it's a close call, and since this is only about one word, let's keep it. Thx again, wasn't too sure 'bout it, still am not, but either way looks fine to me. =) --Johnnyw 12:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Band image
Thanks to the new (really funny) promo pics, we have a new image for the infobox. There are some more and I would like to change the current one - which is a good one - to 02 of the ones linked above, which I believe is superfantasticgigantanormous. Who is with me?? ^^ --Johnnyw 12:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I am going to change the image on my own account, if someone objects, please revert or discuss here. --Johnnyw 13:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Edit: hm, I can't seem to find an original source of any press kit images on the web. The source provided at the new image does not contain the image, it's merely the link to BMG Sony Music's Tool page, which does not hold any press kits. There ARE some press kits available as far as I can see, but these are password protected for journalists only. Since the new image does not contain a source, I probably have to nominate it for deletion, unless we find a source... =( --Johnnyw 15:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I had to revert to the original image, since the new one will probably deleted, due to the fact, that the uploader does not seem to add a source to the image. We need a real source, like the tool homepage or the sony bmg website to give full credits.. Sadly, I am unable to find one on the net (besides toolshed and such). --Johnnyw 01:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I might have jumped the gun here. Since the old one did not contain source either, I uploaded a different (old) promo image as a temporary solution. --Johnnyw 01:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Laterus
Laterus was No. #16 on the UK albums charts by the way. —This unsigned comment was added by 195.137.109.177 (talk • contribs).
 * Lateralus may have hit #16 in the UK charts - do you have any sources? 66.241.95.65 04:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

10,000 Days
There is more information on 10,000 Days available that seems to be missing from this article. For example, "The new Tool single, 'Vicarious' will officially be heard on radio on April 17th." was posted on the official TOOL website on April 1. There was also a tracklisting for 10,000 days posted on the official band website several weeks ago. Considering the album comes out in a month, it seems like there should be more information about it incorporated into the article. Braincandle 18:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You sadly witnessed an act of vandalism. One entire section of the article dedicated to current events and released was removed by a vandal. I restored the previous version, i believe this will be what you expected of the article ^^ --Johnnyw 19:35, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Ah, I see. Keep up the good work. Braincandle 06:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The vicarious single hit the internet late night April 14. Don't know if this is appropriate information for the article. But all tool fans should try and find it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.186.17.36 (talk • contribs).
 * If read about it yeah. It will only be included if we can find reliable source, since we are not allowed to do original research. And I will probably wait to listen to the entire album. I am not a big fan of singles releases.. although I admit that it's hard to restrain myself from looking for Vicarious. --Johnnyw 11:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No need to restrain yourself--its out there, and boy is it ever good. Braincandle 05:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The album leaked to the internet this afternoon. Braincandle 21:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source? --Johnnyw 00:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Side Projects
Given that each member of the band have quite good individual pages, is it really neccessary to outline all of the side projects in this Tool page? I'm mean they're really related to the individual not the band. Perhaps a brief summary and a link to the members pages could be used? hellboy 00:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

rm exploration of writers, scientists and philosophers
"Tool often promotes the exploration of writers, scientists and philosophers. Fans speculate whether or not this promotion is an effort by the band to endorse these individuals or to promote objective, critical thinking among their listeners. Tool also seems to promote research into certain aspects of magick including the language Enochian. As Tool is fond of red herrings and rarely comment on such matters, it is unknown whether any members of Tool actually subscribe to such beliefs. Among their many offerings are Timothy Leary, Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, Albert Hoffman, Aleister Crowley, Terrence McKenna and Drunvalo Melchizedek." I removed this addition made by User:69.138.98.12 since it is unsourced and - in part - covered through the reading list link. Does anyone have some sources regarding this? --Johnnyw 02:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't even think there's a need to look for sources. We don't need this. There's no need to spoonfeed people every possible half-idea Tool have ever mentioned. By the way Johnny, plenty of good edits as usual! Keep up the great work.--Cassius987 19:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

POV & unencyclopedic
"is as far removed from what's considered musically popular these days as you can get."

In turn, the "list of bands that have been inspired by [Tool] is long and prestigious."

Entries like the above, even as cited with source, are still too point-of-view to be properly encyclopedic for an article. Wikipedia articles should be informational, and posit concrete data on the subject, not consist of commentary that would represent a favorable abstractly given jot of info to appeal to the sensibilities of a fans opinion. 67.5.158.239 05:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your concerns. To substantiate your claim that these citations are not neutral POV, it would have been nice to prove the article wrong and cite a different POV. Of course, you might nevertheless be right. I will try to do a little research and look into both claims asap. --Johnnyw 11:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

"is as far removed from what's considered musically popular these days as you can get."

 * Well I have been on the lookout for a different description of Tool's Lateralus-era music, looking through the reviews listed at the Lateralus article, but those that I find that are a little longer than just a one-sentence-summary basically do not contradict the statement above. E.g. Q4Music writes "The quartet's almost avant garde approach is light years removed from even that genre's skewed idea of commercialism", PopMatters writes even more enthusiastically "Tool are the ultimate rock band. They sound cool enough for causal fans while still remaining smart enough for critics." , Rolling Stone "In another era, Lateralus - co-produced by Tool and engineer David Bottrill - would have been considered progressive rock, ten tons of impressive pretension." . So what am I to do? Although there is at least the Q4music quote which backs up the current citation, PopMatters seems to contradict. I will go ahead and replace the current quotation with the last one by the Rolling Stone Magazine, since it goes more into detail about Tool's style during the Lateralus-era, as I originally intended the end of the introductory paragraph to be. Hope you all approve. Regarding the second quote about the influences.. I am not sure if I can find any source contradicting this. If anyone can, please post it here and we will rework the statement. Until then, I will probably not change it.. --Johnnyw 20:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

 * But why does the intro contain so many quotes and outbound links? Stylistically, the whole section is messy and uneven. (First paragraph reads like something out of a music journal: "proved to be a stroke of luck", etc.) Try writing a totally quote-free version. Worth a try. 195.148.74.159 09:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

 * This is basically due to the fact that this would otherwise result in reverting and chaning since the intro would be unverifiable. But I see that the intro isnt easier to read because of the external links. The first step that I will take is to transform the external links into notes. I really would not appreciate if we removed all the verifiable content and replace it with my 2 cents on Tool. BUT, we could do this, if I moved all the content to a new section "Overview" or similar and then write a new intro w/o all the quotes. The overview would then present the facts in detail, including external links and such and the intro would only summarize this overview. But like I said, first of all, I will probably go ahead and change the style to make it more appealing to the eye. Btw: are you the same person who wrote the first comment? If so, did you ever think about creating a WP account? Makes it easier to respond if I know that I am communicating with 1 not 2 people ^^ --Johnnyw 14:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope, not the same guy. Just a Tool fan who'd like the article to look a bit better. BTW, I think the work you and a few other people have been doing has pushed the entry in the right direction! I guess the main problem is that Tool is a) contemporary and b) active. There isn't a final word that can summed up and reported. But we can still present a set of basic facts. And maybe basic facts are enough (e.g. I personally find the whole genre argument stuff too detailed - just mention the main influences and the band's stance on their sound and you're set). Your plan re: notes sounds good. 81.197.127.187 16:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your input and heads up ^^ I'd still welcome you to create an account and to revisit the article once in a while, and drop a line of criticism. We are always looking for people who give us some creative feedback. I will make the changes pretty soon, although I am always quite busy. Regarding the genre section: I have thought about the issue as well.. I think the way we handle the genre issue in the intro is quite satisfactory, we had a lot of trouble there some months ago. The new section was another result of those troubles. Maybe we could condense this section a bit, although I would like Cassius987 to do so, since that section is his brain child, and he probably has done more research regarding this subject than me or others... --Johnnyw 17:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed speculation from article
There have been widespread rumors circulating on the internet concerning the validity of the 10,000 Days leak. Fans cite the lack of flow and focus in the album, back to back segues (Lipan Conjuring and Lost Keys) of as well as the seeming similarities between riffs in the new album and previous albums. It should be noted that, Blair, of Tool's online newsletter, wrote the following in September of 2005,

 * "Now where was I?.. Oh yeah, TOOL!.. I'm not going to reveal my source, Mister Patience, but do you want to know the kind of things that have been going on while this record was being recorded? Okay, first there was the decoy record just to confound all those would-be bootleggers out there. This took, oh, about a year, just because the band members wanted it to sound pretty close to the real thing (so as to be believable), along with equally believable art design."

This also follows the pattern of a fan base when reacting negatively to such an influential and popular band as Tool releasing a new album to have the propensity to create false stories and information in hopes that the album they haven't fully adjusted to is some elaborate joke created by the band. I removed the above paragraphs, since they really did not any substantial or interesting information. Some doubt the album's authenticity, some don't. We'll all find out on April 28, when the album will be released in Europe. The above paragraphs will have lost their informational value by that date anyway. --Johnnyw 19:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Similar Artists
I thought this list was pretty pointless. Far too much point of view and nothing even remotely resembling citations, etc. Removed. Feel free to object below. hellboy 06:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * While I'm on that, if we do need a list, then it should be short and concise, and not just include every 90s grunge and nu-metal band who happened to record a CD. Personally I felt the only artist there I'd consider to be similar are The Melvins and King Crimson. hellboy 06:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Please let us not endeavour in creating another useless list. People who are interested in similiar artists have the possibility of checking out the artists they have collaborated with, or read some of the album reviews. A list of some sort compiled by us will only result in reverting and endless debates... Btw the article is long enough already.. --Johnnyw 08:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Intro Para
This seems to be in pretty bad shape. Could it be made more concise? Plus, imho the first thing in the article should be a few sentences describing the band in broad terms, rather than details of how they formed. This should probably be moved to history section.

Also, is it just me, or does the end of this paragraph make no sense at all:

"They have gained appreciation and critical praise for a complex and ever-evolving sound, that ranges from 'slam and bang' heavy metal on their first release[2] to more progressive influenced songwriting on Lateralus (2001) which 'in another era [...] would have been considered progressive rock, ten tons of impressive pretension.'[3]"

Could we just cut that out?

If there are no objections, I'd like to make these alterations. JMalky 15:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I appreciate any input. :) But I'd also propose to post these alterations here before changing the article so we could incorporate creative feedback from other regular authors of the article as well. -- Johnny w  talk  11:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

87.160.170.202 17:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC) xarkos, 20/2/07
 * pedantic nitpicking, but tool are NOT prog rock. 'alternative metal' or even 'experimental rock' would be a better choice.

When you use the word "alternative", you make people think of emo bands like My Chemical Romance/Panic at the Disco. You'll see "alternative" plastered all over the Wikipedia pages of these bands. It may not be their true genre, but as long as it's being used uncontested to describe them on Wikipedia, it shouldn't be used to describe Tool. Osmodius 01:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Alternative metal describes Tool. Alternative rock describes those other bands you mentioned. There is a big difference, and any readers who don't notice probably don't care for either genre. Pomte 01:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Live guests
Can anyone confirm that Adrian Belew or any of the other KC members have joined Tool on stage? Also, can anyone think of AND CONFIRM anyone not already listed?

 * Dale from the Melvins definitely has, and I'm pretty sure some one of the guys from KC has at some point. Can't say when though.  I reckon John Stanier from Tomahawk has joined them too. hellboy 05:35, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Mike Patton from Tomahawk joined the band for one of the very few live performances of Ticks and Leeches in Fort Lauderdale, FL. They were also joined by the drummer from Tricky a few times for Triad. Buzz from the Melvins played with them several times on the Ænima tour.

 * Another one: Zack de la Rocha (sp?) from Rage Against the Machine performed the Rollins spoken bit in "Bottom" at the Lollapalooza '93 second stage show somewhere in the Detroit area. I was there (it was very intensely performed, btw, as you might expect). He may have done it at other shows as well.

Mike Bordin (Faith No More and Ozzy) played some kind of percussion during Triad when I saw them at Ozzfest UK in 2002. I won't add it into the article yet though. I'll let someone more experienced do it ;-) Aenimiac 15:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

A few corrections/clarifications/updates:
 * Dale Crover joined the band on-stage for Triad regularly, including the four southeast US shows The Melvins played w/ Tool in October 2001. Guest drummers were regular for Triad during that tour.
 * Aloke Dutta is featured on Pushit (live) as heard on Salival. This was not during the '98 "mini tour" and is documented (check the Salival liner notes).
 * Thomas Haake (Messhugah) played rototoms during Triad (I was there). Another member of the band played a synth alongside Adam Jones during the same song.
 * Layne Stanley joined Tool in Hawaii (15 Aug 2003), not Hollywood.
 * Statik recorded synth parts for Lateralus and is recognized in the "liner notes".
 * Osseus Labyrint performed during Tool's set in 1999 at Coachella and during the late 2001 US tour.

I'm sure there's more ... I'll add them here as I think of them. I'll leave it to whoever is at the helm to implement the updates. Dimwell 18:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your contribution! Please excuse this late response.. one of us frequent editors will probably get to it this week. Do you know by any chance sources regarding these appearences? I am a little concerned regarding verifiability.. As soon as I incorporate your corrections I'll try to find some my own. Sadly I didn't have the time to do so yet, since I dedicated most of my time recently to other sections.. --Johnnyw 01:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sources? Aside from copies of those shows in my CD collection?  Check the Tool trading community (esp. collectiveunconscious.org and distortiononline.com) for source info.  --Dimwell 23:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I assume dropping by your place and looking the guests up in your cd collection would fall under original research ;) but the sites will probably do just fine, thx. To be honest, I've already looked them up myself but refrained from comparing the lists, since I couldn't find a simple list of guest appearences and did not have the time to look through every single concert. I was kinda tangled up in saving the 10,000 days article, swatting dubious images w/o copyright tags like flies.. --Johnnyw 12:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I just remembered another ... Justin Chancellor played on-stage with Tool (during Sober and Bottom) on July 21, 1994. This was more than a year before Paul left Tool and Justin left Peach to join Tool. Dimwell 17:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Kirk Hammett joined Tool for one song on Friday, August 18 in Honolulu (and ripped through a killer Tool-like solo), but I don't know the name of the song he played. Anyone? Mitchell k dwyer 22:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sober. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYFuhpv9U6U

I moved the Guest Appearances to Tool tours. Still needs sourcing. --Hobbes747 00:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Overview and Visual art
Hi folks, I have a proposal to make. I would like to create a new section in the article, an "overview", preceeding the history section. This overview could merge a bit of the content of other sections, maybe shorten the intro just a bit. Here are some specific thoughts on this: I've come up with a very rough proposal.. after reading Subpages, I decided to create subpage to use as a place for drafting and working on the article until it is ready: Talk:Tool (band)/Overview Of course, this would require your support, help and initiative. I am looking forward for a lively discussion on this matter.. what do you think? --Johnnyw 19:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * some of the collaborations with other artists are quite significant and might be interesting to the casual reader who does not want work over the entire article, e.g. the songs recorded with RATM, Carey's tabla work - perfect info summarized in an overview,
 * some of the descriptions on the sound of Tool in the intro are redundant, since we have 4-5, maybe we could move the beginning of the 2nd paragraph (part of the sound description and the hint to the arguments about their genre) to the overview and rewrite it a bit to elaborate a tiny bit more on Tool's visual art, which would lead me to my second suggestion:
 * the overview could finally sport a summary about Tool's visual art, which is quite a subject. In order to prevent the article from growing ever larger, it would sport a link to an article dedicated to the subject. We have been putting this off for some time now, sadly.

Could this page be improved with a section about their mysterious puzzles and/or cryptic lyric interpretations?

Or possibly another page entirely devote to this?

Or perhaps this is best left to "outside of wikipedia"

I'm just brainstorming here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Diogenes Blinks (talk • contribs).

 * I presume you're talking about the 10,000 Day's puzzle reference. If that's the case, considering it's so vague, I don't see any reason why it should be included in Wikipedia hellboy 03:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. Diogenes Blinks 15:13, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A SITE AND/OR CHATROOM WHERE THEY DISCUSS THE MEANING OF TOOL LYRICS, THERE MUST BE ONE (OR MORE)--REBELYIS 22:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Can someone add information pertaining to first-week sales of each of the major tool albums, including but not limited to Undertow, Aenema, Lateralus, and 10,000 Days. Lr Alpha M 22:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If/when this data is added, it should appear on the Album page, not the Tool page. hellboy 23:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Salival Rerelease?
Recently I was browsing the hmv UK website (http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;-1;-1;-1&sku=508767) and found Salival for £8.99. I ordered it on Monday 15th May, since then the price has gone up. I'm confused by it being on especially as it's release date is 15th June 2006. I waiting for the delivery, it should come tomorrow. I've got the email reciept and the money has gone from my account but still i'm thinking that it isn't an original or thery're going to send me some other CD. Does anyone know if it is still avaliable or if it has been rereleased? advo 09:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, it's a limited release w/o any chance of rerelease. The item you linked above also states "Availability: sorry this title is deleted".. it's probably a mistake. Also, IF you receive anything other then a copy, it will probably just the CD, not the VHS or DVD version which included all the music videos up to that date. Nevertheless, it's a good buy, I enjoyed Salival very much =) --Johnnyw 14:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Popular songs
Is "Die Eier Von Satan" actually a popular Tool song? Methinks "Parabola" would be a better choice for the list, especially since "Eier" isn't really a "song." King Bee 14:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You are certainly right. Problem is, that there is no article for "Parabola (song)". It'd be welcome if you created the article, and maybe merged Parabola (DVD) into the new article, just like it has been done with Schism (song) and Schism (DVD)... --Johnnyw 00:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good call. I think I'll do that, as soon as I have a couple of hours free. Thanks for the suggestion. I would like to know, however, how to change the "popular song" thing at the bottom of the page. I'm not exactly sure what's going on there. King Bee 12:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's an easy one: Template:Toolband is a template that can be included in Tool-related articles and centrally modified. See Template namespace for further information. This means, that after creating the article, you just have to edit the Toolband-template like you'd edit an article and replace "Die Eier von Satan" with "Parabola" (using normal wiki-syntax for links etc.) - this change will appear everywhere where the toolband-template is included. --Johnnyw 14:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sweet! Thanks for the info and the help. King Bee 12:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You're very welcome. =) --Johnnyw 15:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Organization of Subjects
It's a rather small thing, but shouldn't "Current" be below "History"? It just seems a bit more logical to me...-- Sanctus
 * If you had a chronological order in mind, you are certainly right, but imho the article benefits a lot from the current structure. It is safe to assume that the majority of readers are interested in a general overview and then the current status of the band. To delve into the entire band history is obiously sth that 1st timers might not do, in contrast to readers familier with the band. This structural change - removing the very latest info from the history section and fusing it into it's own - resolved some revert-issues and caused the history section to be a lot more stable than it used to be - just liked it should be. This may be in part due to the clear distinction between more transient information and well researched facts.--Johnnyw 15:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I figured there must of been a reason it was first.  Glad I asked before I just went off and changed it!-- Sanctus

Singular Plural
Think of it this way: in this context, "Tool" is a pronoun that takes the place of "Maynard James Keenan, Danny Carey, Justin Chancellor, and Adam Jones". Now, you would never, ever say "Maynard James Keenan, Danny Carey, Justin Chancellor, and Adam Jones is a progressive rock band," would you? Also, referring to American_and_British_English_differences shows that "are" is correct in both British and American English - surely it is preferable to be consistent to a greater number of readers? Furthermore, it is consistent with later using phrases such as "Their overall sound" and "Their music".  Tu rk ey ph an t 13:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You can also think of it as Tool being a single entity, not as a pronoun that takes the place of the four men in the band. I think it is more common to consider bands as solitary entities. Although, wikipedia seems split on the idea (Metallica's page has the singular verb, Pearl Jam's page has the plural). King Bee 14:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes but that does not agree with the next part of the article that says things like "Their overall sound", etc. In my view, you have to be consistent throughout an article and nobody would say "Its (Tool's) overall sound".  Also, plural forms shoul always be used when the group is considered as a collection of people doing personal things such as a band.   Tu rk ey ph an t 14:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think there is a change in context, and that's why we switch from singular to plural. First, we speak of the band, the single entity. Shortly thereafter, we introduce the band members. After that moment, we always use the plural. See here:
 * Tool is an American rock band, formed in 1990 in Los Angeles, California, when drummer Danny Carey joined the rehearsal of his neighbor, singer Maynard James Keenan, and guitarist Adam Jones and bassist Paul d'Amour, when nobody else would show up. His decision proved to be a stroke of luck when the band turned out to become a highly successful rock act, "introducing dark, vaguely underground metal to the preening pretentiousness of art rock"[1] — most notably due to their influential sophomore effort, Ænima (1996). [...] -- Johnny w  talk  00:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's poor writing and poor form. The plural form is correct in both British English and American English while the singular is deemed incorrect by many readers.  Tu rk ey ph an t 03:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is a kind of writing style up with which we shall not put! =) King Bee 13:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not a native English speaker, and since I acquired most of my knowledge of the English language in the United States, I might have made mistake when I was writing the text. After reading the link provided above, it looks as if you are right. Surely, I will not insist on using the singular. -- Johnny w  talk  21:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

 * No, the plural form is chiefly a British way of speaking and writing. In American English it is generally accepted to use the singular form for nouns, especially when the noun isn't pluralized as is the case for "Tool". One wouldn't customarily say or write "The Company are going bankrupted", would they? Likewise, one would generally never write "The band are currently on tour". The reason for the inconsistency in the rest of the article is again a matter of American vernacular. If it is obvious that "Tool" (or any other noun) implies singularity then one doesn't use the word "it". Wisdom89 22:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The thing is both ways are acceptable in American English (although the singular is arguably more popular). However, only the plural is correct in British English.  Therefore, my argument is that the plural should be used to make it easier to comprehend by all readers.  Tu rk ey ph an t 14:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The singular form is much more natural sounding in American English (and this is, after all, an American band). I agree with the reasoning that "Tool" refers to a singular collective.  "Tool" describes one band.  Take sports teams, for example.  Consider that old elementary school test for singular or plural nouns.  "How many Tools are there?  There is one Tool.  Thus, Tool 'is'..." Consider further the sentence "Tool are my favorite band."  When using the British English verb you create a number disagreement between "are" and "band." Ignitus 11:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Which one is more "natural sounding" is entirely subjective and has no place in a reasoned discussion. Similarly, by studying my previous arguments you will find that the "number disagreement" is inconsequential.  Tu rk ey ph an t 13:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The word "Tool" still describes only ONE band. Thus, the singular verb is used.  You'll notice the Pearl Jam page was changed to the singular form.  Wikipedia's own English plural page states that both forms are acceptable in British English, not only one form as you stated.  Seeing as usage is correct in both British and American English, and as it's up to one's discretion, and as Wikipedia works on consensus, we should stay with the singular form.  Nearly every other band page (for bands whose names are not already plural, such as The Rolling Stones) says "is" rather than "are" which establishes our consensus. Ignitus 06:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you continued to read the Wikipedia page you referenced, you'd find that the "delicate distinction" suggests the plural ought to be used for entities such as bands where acts are performed by the multiple members of a band. This is correct in British and American English.  Tu rk ey ph an t 23:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it refers to the band (IS) not to the members (ARE). So any band, no matter if their name is in plural it should be called "is". eg: Tool is a prog metal band...; The Rolling Stones is a rock band. As we are always refering to "the band".

Dexter_prog 24 November 2006

etymology: removed paragraph
I removed this paragraph, since it is quite speculative. -- Johnny w  talk  19:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"The simple name 'Tool' may also reflect the band's desire to express a lyrical message that, like a mechanical tool, is free of coercive qualities in itself, but, depending on the individual who makes use of it, can take on a variety of purposes and meanings. Tool's lyrics are often very general so as to allow for such multiple interpretations, and therefore the band members cannot always be easily pinpointed as adherents to specific political or religious agendas based on their lyrics. In an interview, Maynard has made claims that support this notion. 'Information, itself, is pure. Take a knife, for example. You can use it to cut up vegetables, meat, butter your bread, etc. Or you can use it as a weapon. The way in which information exists in its many forms leaves for us the decision as to how it is we wish to use it. Information itself has a certain purity. Humans have intentionality. It's humans who decide how it is they wish to behave. Information and technology are pure'. [5]"

Tool in Blender
In the new Blender I noticed that Tool is "stressed over their Wikipedia article"... which is actually sad and pathetic to say the least for us pedians. The blip says as follows:

"The band's Wikipedia page states that Keenan met Tool guitarist Adam Jones through Rage Against the Machine shredder Tom Morello. 'That is untrue,' says Jones, who went to high school with Morello in Libertyville, Illinois. 'We played together in a band called the Electric Sheep. We were terrible.'"

This isn't really my article, and I don't know how anybody wants to put it, so I'll leave it up to the everybody else. willsy 19:19 July 12th 2006.

 * Well to put it bluntly, if Adam, Danny, Justin or Maynard have a problem with the article then, like all of us, they could feel free to make the changes! hellboy 00:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And to be honest, I don't know where they got that info from?! The article reads "It was Tom Morello, a high school friend of Jones, who introduced Carey to the band in 1990 and eventually helped the formation of Tool." .. Which is basically exactly what Jones said... Probably a mistake done by Blender then, sharp to find "another" error in WP? Just my 2 cents.. May I ask the exact source of that statement? Maybe there is a chance to clarify this. -- Johnny w  talk  00:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I dont think that any of the guys would have time or the need to do anything to change this, because this like the U.S. Constitution, is by the people for the people. Remember Maynard only gets pissed off at Bob marley Wannabes.76.187.136.157 01:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Zsazter

The August 2006 issue with Owen Wilson on the front, page 79 and number 4. This could've been written a while back, because I do remember the article saying what they're talking about. Also... I think it's an unwritten law (maybe it is written... don't know) that people can't fix their own articles *shrugs*. willsy 19:59 July 12th 2006.
 * I scoured a little bit through the article history up to October of last year - if it ever said s.th., it must have been a loooong time ago. So what the hell. -- Johnny w  talk  09:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thought I'd say something about it, sorry for the stress since it's changed. willsy 14:38 July 13th 2006.
 * No need to apologize. Thanks for pointing it out, man. Too bad the magazine didn't even bother to do research.-- Johnny w  talk  00:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, :-D, yeah, Blender really is a crappy magazine... glad I get it for free. willsy 13:54 July 15th 2006.

how do you get blender for free?--REBELYIS 22:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Fill out a card at FYE... but don't do it... it's really not even worth it. -will 20, July 2006

I love Blender. Anyway whatever then. -Totally different person, July 28 2006

Bulgarian Folk Metal?
Are you kidding? I know nothing of Bulgarian folk metal, and I live in Bulgaria. The closest thing to it is pop-folk, which is crap, and it isn't originally Bulgarian anyway. So, what is this Bulgarian thing?

--84.43.145.225 10:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Maynard is being purely facetious in that quote. You can see he mentions Christian rap also, which Tool certainly is not.

Ignitus 11:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Removal of MySpace link
Hi, I would like to revert Yamla's edit, which was removing the link Adam Jones' Myspace page. Dear Yamla, you cited WP:EL as your reason to remove it, but after reading the relevant passage which advises to generally avoid personal websites such as MySpace, it also goes on to say "However, there are exceptions, such as in cases where the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or where the website is of a particularly high standard.". Jones' Myspace featured a lot of artwork closely related to 10,000 Days as well as photographs of the band in the studio recording the album. Images and information about such things cannot be found either on the official Tool website, nor on WP. So, why shouldn't we make an exception and include the link? -- Johnny w  talk  22:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should consider, though, that Jones himself would not appreciate a public listing of his semi-reclusive myspace account? After all, it takes some finding if you're just looking on your own. Not a dealbreaker--just adding this as a quick thought. By the way, hello again to everyone, and I apologize for my lengthy absences.--Cassius987 18:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To be honest, if Jones wanted secrecy, he certainly wouldn't have published his stuff on myspace... Also, his myspace page is the 4th link in google when searching for "Adam Jones" (WP being #1 =). On a different note, I just wanted to point out that the WP:EL (see above) is under revision (Wikipedia talk:External links) - especially due to the fact that many links to official myspace pages have been removed lately.. And last but not least I welcome you back Cassius =) -- Johnny w   talk  08:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * On Toolshed.Down.Net, Adam's myspace page was put in the newsletter. It is not, in any sense, a secret.
 * As an editor I would delete any link to personal homepages or myspace on sight. It's a very thin line we're threading. If one site makes the cut, then why another didn't? If it's avoidable I would never list myspace sites, not only because a Myspace site can never be professional simply due to Myspace limitations. There's an implicity rule that only one fan site should be listed, and also only if it's notorious enough (thousands to millions of users perhaps). By the way, if the article has a so good google rank then listing it on wikipedia will be of no use, because people searching for tool on google will certainly stumble on the site without any aid from wikipedia. For the sake of maintaining a litle discipline in External links section I would avoid at all costs linking to myspace or personal sites, not the contrary, trying to squeeze the guidelines to enforce that a link to such a site stays in the article. On the other hand, you can substantiate the citing of such a site using unique information found inside it on the article itself (if it's reliable enough). See Boxer (dog) and you'll see a few personal sites being cited in the references section because they contributed with information to the article. Regards Loudenvier 13:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tool (band)/Archive 2


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rave Kitty

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete, the content is on Webcomic Wiki now, there's no need to Transwiki and the consensus seems to be that it doesn't belong here. Rx StrangeLove 00:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Rave Kitty
A webcomic which can be found here, hosted on comicgenesis/keenspace. Although listed on the Alexa rankings of ComicGenesis it is not one of the more popular comics, being that most are still hosted on the keenspace domain. Relatively new with just over 50 strips uploaded, furthermore, a google search shows no mention of notability for the website. If this were a website, it would have been deleted, but because it has a webcomics stub instead of a website stub, it makes it so much more elusive. It shouldn't be so. As of writing, there is no entry for this at Comixpedia, is Wikipedia becoming the first port of call for webcomic artists? Let's do something about it. - Hahnchen 14:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to the Comixpedia Webcomic Wiki and delete. --Carnildo 23:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Question: are the licenses of this wiki and Wikipedia compatible? - Mgm|(talk) 08:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Seems to be. It uses the GFDL, and I think it uses the same cover texts. Someone who knows a bit more than I do should take a look, though. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 08:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, yes. They're both GFDL, and the Webcomic Wiki has a blurb at the bottom of the main page stating that their license is compatible with that of Wikipedia. --Carnildo 18:57, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. enceph  alon  11:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Relisting. Not enough votes the first time. --Woohookitty 10:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Even though non-notable comics are featured in wikipedia (such as Cat Town), this does not mean that everything is OK, regardless of any ranking! bjelleklang 11:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Pasquale Galluppi

Pasquale Galluppi (2 April 1770 – 13 December 1846) was an Italian philosopher.

Biography and philosophy
Galluppi was born at Tropea, Calabria, into the patrician Galluppi family. From 1831 he was a professor at the University of Naples, where he died in 1846.

His philosophy is a mixture of assent to and dissent from Descartes, the French and English sensists, Kant, and the Scottish school of Thomas Reid. Cartesianism tempered by the modifications introduced into it by Leibniz, Wolff, and Genovesi, was the system in which Galluppi's mind was trained.

The problem of human knowledge was Galuppi's chief preoccupation. He maintained the objective reality of knowledge, which he based on the testimony of consciousness, making humans aware not only of their internal experience, but also of the external causes to which it is due. This theory was aimed at Kant, though Galluppi agreed with him that space and time are a priori forms in the mind. Against the sensists, he denied that the mind was merely passive or receptive, and held that like a builder it arranged and ordered the materials supplied it, deducing therefrom new truths which sensation alone could never reach. He threw no light, however, on the difference between sensory and intellectual knowledge. This was the great weakness of his argument against the Scottish school, that the soul perceives not only its own affections or the qualities of bodies, but also its own substance and that of things outside itself. It was also natural that Galluppi should be foremost in attacking the theories of Rosmini concerning the idea of God as the first object of human knowledge: and it was this polemic (quiet enough in itself) which drew public attention to the Roveretan philosopher.

The morality of actions, according to Galluppi, depends on the notion of duty which springs from human nature. He never made use of the phrase "categoric imperative", but everything goes to show that on that point he did not completely escape Kant's influence: and although he asserted as the two great moral commandments "Be just" and "Be beneficent", he nonetheless approved of Kant's moral principle. Therefore, he does not draw any connection between the moral law and God, beyond the statement that God must reward virtue and punish vice. Against the Scottish school, on the other hand, he denied that morality depends on the feelings. His theodicy is well within the limits of that of Leibniz, and therefore admits not only the possibility of revelation, but also the divinity of Christianity.

The care and clearness of Galluppi's style made his works very popular; but when the Hegelianism of the Neapolitan school became the fashion in non-Catholic circles of thought, and Scholasticism regained its hold among Catholics, Galluppi's philosophy quickly lost ground. He always kept aloof from political questions; and his works were planned and written in his own home, amidst the noise and bustle of a large and happy family.

Selected works

 * Saggio filosofico sulla critica della conoscenza umana, 4 vols
 * Lettere sulle vicende della filosofia da Cartesio a Kant
 * Elementi di Filosofica
 * Lezioni di Logica e Metafisica
 * Filosofia della volontà
 * Considerazioni filosofiche sull' idealismo trascendentale
 * Storia della Filisofia (only the first volume completed)

title: Pasquale Galluppi


text:
The Devil's Horns (disambiguation)

The Devil's Horns may refer to:

 * Sign of the horns, a hand and two-finger gesture also called Devil's Horns, mano cornuta and corna
 * "The Devil's Horns", a 1939 story from The Avenger magazine
 * Proboscidea (plant), a flowering plant sometimes known as Devil's horn and by other names

title: The Devil's Horns (disambiguation)


text:
Reine Davies

Reine Davies (born Irene Douras; June 6, 1883 – April 5, 1938) was an American singer and actress.

Life and career
Davies was born on June 6, 1883, in Brooklyn, New York, the daughter of Bernard J. Douras, a lawyer and judge in New York City; and Rose Reilly. Her father performed the civil marriage of socialite Gloria Gould Bishop.

The eldest sister of actress Marion Davies, Reine was the first of the three Douras daughters to adopt the name Davies. One day she was driving through a Brooklyn neighborhood, when she saw an office sign for Valentine Davies. She liked the name so much, she adopted it professionally, and her sisters followed suit.

Davies married twice, first to director George Lederer from January 12, 1908 until they divorced in 1912, and later to actor George Regas. She had two children with Lederer, son director/writer Charles Lederer, and daughter, Josephine Rose ("Pepi") Lederer.

She was known as "The New American Beauty," and, by her friends as, "The True Blue Girl". Reine Davies lived for many years in Chicago, and was on the Vaudeville circuit as a singer and actress. She appeared in the 1915 movie Sunday as Sunday and in 1917 as Beth Winthrop in The Sin Woman. She was also a popular subject on sheet music covers, most famously for "Meet Me Tonight in Dreamland" (which she introduced), as well as "The Reine Waltz" (1910), "When I Kissed Your Tears Away" (1911), "Leaf by Leaf the Roses Fall" (1911), "When I Met You Last Night in Dreamland" (1912), "In the Palace of Dreams" (1914), and "Araby" (1915). For many years she edited the gossip column in the Los Angeles Examiner.

In 1935, Davies began writing a column about Hollywood social events for The San Francisco Examiner.

Davies died on April 5, 1938, in Beverly Hills, California, from a heart attack in a swimming pool. She was buried with a Requiem Mass at St. Augustine's Church in Culver City, California, and interred in the Douras Mausoleum in what is now Hollywood Forever Cemetery.

title: Reine Davies


text:
Smiggin Holes 2010 Winter Olympic bid

The Smiggin Holes 2010 Winter Olympic bid was a joke campaign initiated by Australian comedians Roy and HG to bring the 2010 Winter Olympics to the tiny and little-known village of Smiggin Holes, part of the Perisher Blue ski resort, in New South Wales, Australia. The bid was first proposed on the television show The Ice Dream, which aired as part of the Seven Network's coverage of the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City.

Overview
During the course of The Ice Dream's broadcast, a number of suggestions were presented by the hosts to the audience in order to make the holding of the Winter Games possible at Smiggin. For example, in order to provide a tall enough mountain for skiing events, Roy and HG proposed that either Mount Kosciuszko be raised 300 metres (from its current height of 2,228 metres), or that a new mountain be built in Smiggin itself, which would be named Mount Steggall, after Australian Nagano slalom bronze medalist Zali Steggall. "We've just got to get the nation to dump all its rubbish on top of Kosciuszko, compact it a bit and voila, Mount Steggall."

In addition, the duo suggested that the caravan park could be used as the athletes' village, and local portable toilet business Dougie Does Dunnies promised the cleanest Olympic Games ever as far as toilets were concerned. The Cooma KFC would provide catering for the event. The duo also suggested that the Biathlon would "have live targets, something that will make a noise when it's hit". Roy also said that "we can have a kangaroo cull. God we're going to have fun."

Mottos for the Smiggin Holes 2010 bid included "Unleash the Mighty Mongrel of the Holes", "Winter Wonder Down Under" and "If you've got the poles, we've got the holes." Appearing on The Ice Dream, International Olympic Committee president Jacques Rogge described the bid film as "very impressive".

Smiggin Holes 2014 bid
After the disappointment of being pushed out by Vancouver for 2010, HG Nelson stated in a June 2009 podcast that "I think 2014 is not beyond us, and we're still marking it under the slogan, 'If you've got the poles, we've got the holes.'" Sochi has since hosted the 2014 Winter Games.

title: Smiggin Holes 2010 Winter Olympic bid


text:
User:Feliperijo

Who is Feliperijo?

 * Name: Felipe Garcia Rijo.
 * Home: Porto Alegre, capital of Rio Grande do Sul, a state of Brazil.
 * Birth: October 1, 1980.
 * Main activities: Lawyer, but runs a Graphic design and Architecture studio.

title: User:Feliperijo


text:
Talk:Computer language

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2020 and 14 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Wintersfire.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

SQL is not a 'query language'
The title of the SQL standard (ISO/IEC 9075: 2003) is "Information technology -- Database languages -- SQL -- Part n ...", for 0 < n < 14.

There were once two standard database languages: SQL and NDL (ISO 8907, Network Database Language). The first edition of each was published in 1987, following publication of identical ANSI standards, and the former continued to be developed until the present. ISO 8907 was based on the Codasyl DBTG work and was eventually withdrawn in 1996, for lack of support.

Whether it would be worth giving it a page of its own is doubtful, but perhaps it deserves at least a mention.

I would expect an entry on database languages to define a dbl as something like:

A language capable of defining, updating and querying a database. --MikeSy 17:45, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Page needs serious cleanup
It has basically duplicated paragraphs (e.g. on machine languages), is scattered with "Last modified" and other such tags, and was obviously cut and pasted from elsewhere with little editing. Furthermore, it isn't particularly comprehensive or well written. --Wizofaus 23:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I simply reverted it. --ZeroOne 01:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Communication protocols
A communication protocol is not a computer language. It may involve a language (e.g. XML) but it is not in itself a language. It describes the methods of communication between devices, not a syntax for programming, querying, or markup. --Sean 05:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Can we find references?
The concept discussed on this article seems very useful to me, but I can't find references for it and thus can't verify it's not made up. The dictionaries, encyclopedias, and university course web pages I could find all used it as a synonym for programming language, machine language, or computer jargon. --TuukkaH 22:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

 * If this is the case, maybe we should just change this to be a re-direct to "Programming languages". Anca 22:00, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Let me give my personal take on the topic. Programming languages are languages that are used for programming: specifying algorithms and data structures and their abstractions. This rules out a lot of other formal languages used in computer communication. Thus, every page that discusses programming languages and includes HTML, for example, is actually discussing the topic of this article. You can't write computer programs in HTML, you can't program in HTML. Here're a few links to get us started:
 * Perl, the first postmodern computer language - mentions "C, sh, csh, grep, sed, awk, Fortran, COBOL, PL/I, BASIC-PLUS, SNOBOL, Lisp, Ada, C++, and Python". Notice grep.
 * The Language List - "Collected Information On About 2500 Computer Languages, Past and Present." Lists also categories of computer languages such as query, specification, meta. Includes HTML.

 * Here we have Category:Computer languages too. --TuukkaH 09:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Example
What language is it? What does the code do? 165.230.132.122 18:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge?
Should this page be merged with Programming Language? Heavy Metal Cellist talkcontribs
 * Agree that this is a candidate for merge. In the meantime, edited for clarity, tone and content. This article should stay as *small* as possible, deferring to 'the other types of languages' to do all the defining, characterizing and comparisons. If not merged, this article should do little more than disambiguate, and definitely it should not introduce any independent assertions. dr.ef.tymac 01:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Aurora (programming language)
It would be helpful to have more users participating in this discussion. Dpbsmith (talk) 03:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Changes
I made some relatively major changes considering the size of this article. I tried to explain it better and fixed some technical inaccuracies and such. Added a few new wiki links. If anyone can think of anything else along this line we can add to the article, let me know.--Shadowdrak 18:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Please delete this article
This page is crap. None of the examples listed are in any way "languages" that one uses to "communicate" with a computer. A computer is a machine that is able to parse the syntax of certain kinds of notations, and then provides a model (the semantics) using which it can change its internal state or control the output devices (printer, screen).

Not only that, but even though the article makes the brave attempt to categorize any formal notation used with computers under the term "computer language", the term has only the vaguest of meaning. Text formatting notations such as HTML are means to do just that, format text, not to "tell" or "ask" the computer to please make the following words underlined or bold. The division to high-level and low-level languages is fluff, taken from the domain of programming notations and applied mercilessly on any formal notation given as an example in this article. I could go on and on.

Elevating the computer to the status of a human being, by implying that you can "communicate" with it, is utterly ridiculous. Please do not allow articles like this to exist in Wikipedia.

130.232.103.63 08:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Computers have a language to themselves, which allows for this article to remain in existance. This article explains the difference of programming languages used throughout computers, and that constitutes a "language of computers."  This article should not be deleted for that reason. TrekCaptainUSA (talk) 13:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Anonymous user 130.232.103.63 may usefully contribute to a page such as neo-luddism. However to do so he or she will have to communicate with computers, and rely on software composed by the collective efforts of many persons who are valued for their aquired skills in programming. If an important technology can be proven "utterly ridiculous" just by someone demonstrating that (s)he can ridicule it, then the claims of 130.232.103.63 are incontrovertible. However I dare say every computer that displays this and bold has correctly implemented before your eyes the HTML (HyperText Markup Language) tags that I used to communicate (command, tell, ask) my intention. At no point has anyone "elevated the computer to the status of a human being" which is indeed a ridiculous claim. Therefore, despite its apparent attraction to luddites and vandals, please Retain and continue to improve this significant article. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The history section of this page appears to be a copyright violation
I found a nearly identical page on the Princeton web site here which says it was last modified on Friday, 05-Nov-2004 15:44:03 EST.

Do we have permission to use this? The history shows that this block of text was added anonymously on 12 Feb 2008, so it's quite new. People have been making minor changes since then.

I think this page should be deleted or completely rewritten.

--R39525 (talk) 22:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Icky Copyright Violation

 * Good catch. I though it looked fishy but was going to not deal with it until I saw your clear reference. Given that it is a clear copy, I am removing basically everything [covered in this diff] related to the edits made by User:59.93.254.84. The later edits were minor, and regardless are based on a probably copyvio. The website you point to is now down, but the Wayback Machine's Version indicates that it was up there is substantially the same form from Feb 21, 2001 to July 07, 2007. It also had a decent bibliography - if only User:59.93.254.84 had also copied that, we might not have even noticed a copyvio. 59.93.254.84 seems to a Calcutta, India, ip address.

 * The source article was on the personal web space of Stephen Ferguson at the Princeton University Library. Given that the article is no longer there, I will contact him to find out about the work and it's status. Really, it doesn't belong here, but rather in History of programming languages
 * Besides Wikipedia, the article is currently duplicated on http://elusivemind.net/index.php?/elusivemind/the_history_of_computer_programming_languages/ (with attribution) and http://www.123-online-management-training.com/computer-programming.htm (no attribution) and http://blogs.ibibo.com/visaimmigartionticketing/The-History-of-Computer-Programming-Language.html (no attribution).

 * I will edit to remove the copyvio, and try to salvage the content that had been overwritten.--Marcinjeske (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

 * In an extra little twist, it appears that the few paragraphs of content that were not a copyvio... are currently (April 13, 2008) being displayed as the sole content of http://www.xfml.org/.--Marcinjeske (talk) 21:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Small changes
I added a few things, mostly just wikifying stuff. I also deleted the POV tag because it was irrelevant. This article seems pretty silly; I don't think anything on here isn't covered by another article, but it seems possible that people might end up here, confused and looking for disambiguation in the vast nebula of "computer languages". Hopefully this article would help. Indeterminate (talk) 05:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Reccomend merge with Programming language
I recommend merging with Programming language. This page is redundant, poorly written, and inaccurate. It inaccurately differentiates programming and scripting languages, and provides no real value. Nathanaeljones (talk) 13:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Broadconcept
Unfortunately the deletion discussion (at top) was missing the vital aspect that this is not a valid dab page - all entries are WP:PTM / not ambiguous / examples of a WP:BROADCONCEPT. Fixed by converting to the latter. Older versions may have content worth merging into this such as this and older. Ping MfD participants: User:Peter James User:Blackhat999 User:70.51.44.60 User:210.6.254.106 User:Lenticel. Widefox ; talk 14:45, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree, it appears to be a valid concept (general-purpose language and domain-specific language are types of computer language), and Category:Programming languages is a subcategory of Category:Computer languages. The RFD (not MFD) was just to discuss whether the redirect should be retained. The old article had some overlap in content but not the same topic; lack of sources would also have been a reason to not keep it - however I wouldn't oppose restoring it if the possible copyright problems mentioned on the talk page have been resolved. Looking at related articles I found a similar redirect that could also be discussed: Database language - should that go to query language as it does now or Database? Peter James (talk) 22:28, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Draft
I have created Draft:Computer language based on the former article. Pinging forme participant at the RfD discussion:. - Champion (talk) (contribs) (Formerly TheChampionMan1234) 04:50, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

move to list
I made this a list-class article. I can't see that it will ever be more than "list of things that could be intended by the term 'computer language'", but I think it serves a useful purpose. It doesn't fit the definition of a disambiguation page. Peter Flass (talk) 12:58, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

The reference is largely irrelevant and incorrect
There is only one occurrence of "computer language" in the reference, so I don't think it's an appropriate source to cite. I also question its credibility, as it contains obvious mistakes. E.g., interpretation does not turn a program in high-level languages into a machine language.

And while I am at it, I also find some items in the list of "types of computer languages" pointless. For example, is there a point to make a distinction between command language and programming language? See page 69 of Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation which says that shell languages (with bash as an example) and domain-specific languages (see page 315) is a kind of programming language. Also note that some of these items, like query language, used to be called programming language, until it's changed to computer languages without any citation (though to be fair, there's also no citation to begin with). --Nullzero (talk) 10:52, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

 * The reference was added at Special:diff/700969812 with the reason "Added a reference to the programming languages definition as part of a class assignment." Given the reference does not support the article, I will remove it right now and mark the article as unreferenced. --Nullzero (talk) 11:00, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I saw that you just restored an earlier version, which also restores the reference I removed. The reference is mostly irrelevant, incorrect, and not credible. Would you object to removing the reference again? --Nullzero (talk) 20:10, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You are perfectly right, and I have removed the reference. Mea culpa: I should have checked it before restoring the earlier version of the article. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I checked through a number of versions of the article from over the years before choosing one to revert to, but I make no claim that the one I chose was perfect, or even the best of all those that are available in the history, so if you see any other aspect of the version I restored that is not good then please feel welcome to improve it without consulting me. Obviously that includes the possibility of restoring the "unreferenced" tag, but my view is that, as I indicated in my edit summary, in its present form the article is effectively serving as a disambiguation page, and as such it doesn't need references, as they belong in the individual articles it links to. In fact I think the best thing to do with this very unsatisfactory article might be to turn it into a true disambiguation page, properly formatted as such. What do you think? JBW (talk) 20:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that a true disambiguation page would be better. --Nullzero (talk) 20:38, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * OK. Maybe I'll get onto doing that tomorrow, but I don't have time now. Or of course you may like to do it. JBW (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

What is computer language
Voice 2402:3A80:11FB:4CB1:FC00:9D91:B495:2A0B (talk) 14:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Computer language
Df 2405:204:A225:4ABF:0:0:BF6:10B0 (talk) 14:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

password Facebook account
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61558578531997&mibextid=ZbWKwL 182.5.7.163 (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Computer language


text:
Club Nacional

Club Nacional is a Paraguayan professional football club based in the neighbourhood of Obrero in Asunción. Founded in 1904, the club currently plays in the Paraguayan Primera División, and holds its home games at Estadio Arsenio Erico.

Internationally, the club is referred to as Nacional Asunción, in order to distinguish itself from Uruguay's Nacional and Colombia's Atlético Nacional.

History
The club was founded on June 5, 1904, by a group of alumni of the Colegio Nacional de la Capital, one of the oldest public schools in Asunción. The club was originally named Nacional Football Club, taking the name from "Club Nacional de Football" the Uruguayan club, whose shield and three colors were taken to associate the national origin. It is also referred as related to the school the founders attended. Its first president was Víctor Paredes Gómez and white was selected as the team color because that was the color of the Nacional de la Capital School uniform. For the emblem of the club, the colors of the Paraguayan flag were chosen.

Nacional is one of the traditional teams in the Paraguayan league and they have won a total of nine championships so far. Their nickname "La Academia" (lit. 'the academy') was given to them because of their excellent youth system that produced great players such as Arsenio Erico, who is considered as the best Paraguayan footballer of all time.

In 2009 Nacional won their first league title in 63 years.

In 2014, Club Nacional made history by reaching the Copa Libertadores final for the first time ever since its foundation, and by being only the second Paraguayan club to reach the final (after Olimpia).

The club began the campaign with a runner-up finish in the group stage. In the knockout stages, they defeated Argentine clubs Vélez Sarsfield and Arsenal de Sarandí. In the semi-finals, they beat Uruguayan club Defensor Sporting 2–1 on aggregate to set up a final with San Lorenzo. The first leg of the final was played in Asunción and ended 1-1. However, San Lorenzo won the second leg 1–0 at Estadio Pedro Bidegain and took the title with a 2-1 aggregate victory.

Youth
One of the club's youth teams played at the 2009 Torneo di Viareggio, the 2010 Torneo di Viareggio, the 2011 Torneo di Viareggio, the 2012 Torneo di Viareggio and the 2013 Torneo di Viareggio.

Honors

 * Primera División (9): 1909, 1911 (undefeated), 1924, 1926, 1942, 1946, 2009 Clausura, 2011 Apertura, 2013 Apertura
 * División Intermedia (3): 1979, 1989, 2003

Current squad
As of 24 January, 2024

Notable players

 * To appear in this section a player must have either:

 * Been part of a national team at any time.
 * Played in the first division of any other football association (outside Paraguay).
 * Played in a continental and/or intercontinental competition.

2000's 2010's Non-CONMEBOL players
 * 🇵🇾 Óscar Cardozo (2004–06)
 * 🇵🇾 Cristian Bogado (2005–07)
 * 🇧🇷 Glacinei Martins (2005–2006, 2007–2009)
 * 🇵🇾 Juan Cardozo (2008)
 * 🇵🇾 Fredy Bareiro (2014)
 * 🇵🇾 Julio Santa Cruz (2014–15)
 * 🇵🇾 Brian Montenegro (2014)
 * 🇦🇷 Ignacio Fideleff (2016–)
 * 🇦🇷 Roberto Nanni (2016–)
 * 🇦🇺 Christopher Cristaldo (2016)
 * Zé Turbo (2019)

Managers

 * 🇵🇾 Ever Hugo Almeida (1992)
 * 🇨🇭 Daniel Raschle (July 1, 2008 – June 30, 2009)
 * 🇵🇾 Ever Hugo Almeida (July 1, 2009 – April 15, 2010)
 * 🇵🇾 Juan Manuel Battaglia (April 1, 2010 – Dec 31, 2011)
 * 🇦🇷 Javier Torrente (Jan 1, 2012 – April 19, 2012)
 * 🇵🇾 Gustavo Morínigo (April 16, 2012–15)
 * 🇦🇷 Ricardo Dabrowski (2015)
 * 🇨🇭 Daniel Raschle (2015–2016)
 * 🇵🇾 Ever Hugo Almeida (2016–)

title: Club Nacional


text: User talk:204.8.196.181

title: User talk:204.8.196.181


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Hellraisins

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. Linuxbeak | Talk 22:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The Hellraisins
Band vanity and advertisement. — brighterorange  (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * This afd nomination was orphaned. Listing now.  No opinion. —Cryptic (talk) 08:59, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. No indication of meeting WP:MUSIC criteria, with only one demo.  AMG doesn't know them either.  Friday (talk) 20:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. PacknCanes 22:52, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above.--Gaff talk 00:18, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Nephelaphyllum

Nephelaphyllum is a genus with 12 species of orchids (family Orchidaceae). Its genus is distributed in southern China, the Himalayas, Indochina, Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines.

Species accepted as of June 2014:

 * 1) Nephelaphyllum aureum  J.J.Wood in C.L.Chan. & al. - Borneo
 * 2) Nephelaphyllum beccarii Schltr. - Sarawak
 * 3) Nephelaphyllum cordifolium (Lindl.) Blume - Sikkim, India, Bhutan, Bangladesh
 * 4) Nephelaphyllum flabellatum  Ames & C.Schweinf. in O.Ames - Sabah
 * 5) Nephelaphyllum gracile Schltr.  - Borneo
 * 6) Nephelaphyllum laciniatum J.J.Sm. - Sulawesi
 * 7) Nephelaphyllum mindorense Ames - Philippines
 * 8) Nephelaphyllum pulchrum Blume - Hainan, Indochina, Assam, Bhutan, West Bengal, Sikkim, Andaman Islands, Borneo, Java, Sumatra, Philippines
 * 9) Nephelaphyllum tenuiflorum  Blume - Hainan, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam
 * 10) Nephelaphyllum trapoides J.J.Sm. - Borneo
 * 11) Nephelaphyllum verruculosum Carr -Sabah

title: Nephelaphyllum


text:
The Patriot-News

The Patriot-News is the largest newspaper serving the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, metropolitan area. In 2005, the newspaper was ranked in the top 100 in daily and Sunday circulation in the United States. It has been owned by Advance Publications since 1947.

On August 28, 2012, the newspaper's publisher announced that it would shift to a three-day print publication schedule beginning January 1, 2013, and expand its digital focus on its website, PennLive.com, and social media platforms. This followed similar moves at other Advance Publications-owned publications. It is published Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Also, as of May 4, 2015, LNP, a seven-day newspaper based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, is printed in the same facility as The Patriot-News.

History
The Patriot-News officially traces its history to March 4, 1854, with the founding of The Daily Patriot. Its heritage dates, however, to December 1820, involving a weekly newspaper named The Pennsylvania Intelligencer. In 1855, The Patriot bought the Democratic Union, successor of the Intelligencer, and merged them into The Patriot & Union. It was a weekly paper, but published three days a week when the legislature was in session. It became a daily publication again in 1868 as The Morning Patriot, changing its name to the Harrisburg Daily Patriot in 1875 and dropping Harrisburg from its masthead in 1890. The other half of the paper began in 1917 as The Evening News. In 1947, both papers were bought by Edwin Russell, with financial backing from the Newhouse chain, forerunner of Advance Publications. Later that year, the Newhouse chain assumed majority ownership, though Russell remained as the papers' driving force until his death in 2001. In 1996, The Patriot and Evening News merged into a single morning paper, The Patriot-News.

For many years, The Patriot-News was infamous for an editorial printed by its predecessor, The Patriot & Union, on November 24, 1863, in which it dismissed the Gettysburg Address as "silly remarks" that should disappear into "a veil of oblivion." On November 14, 2013, The Patriot-News issued a retraction, saying the Patriot & Union editorial board failed to recognize the "momentous importance, timeless eloquence, and lasting significance" of the Gettysburg Address, and claimed that this failure was so egregious "that it cannot remain unaddressed in our archives." The retraction received considerable national coverage; NPR and Fox News Channel interviewed several of the paper's editors. Deputy opinion page editor Matthew Zencey said the 150th anniversary of the Gettysburg Address was the perfect time to ask, "Gee, can you believe what rock heads ran this outfit 150 years ago?"

From 1953 to 1980, The Patriot and The Evening News were operated alongside south-central Pennsylvania's ABC affiliate, WTPA. That station was sold to Times Mirror with the rest of the Newhouse television division in 1980 and is now WHTM-TV, owned by Nexstar Media Group.

In 2019, The Patriot-News was a founding member of Spotlight PA, an investigative reporting partnership focused on Pennsylvania.

Awards, honors, and special notice
Despite its modest size, The Patriot-News has consistently won top state journalism awards in competition with Pennsylvania's largest newspapers. In 2012, Patriot-News reporter Sara Ganim and staff were awarded a Pulitzer Prize for breaking the story of the Penn State sex abuse scandal.

In 2003, the paper won the Pennsylvania Newspaper Association’s G. Richard Dew Award for Journalistic Service for its coverage of the attempted sale of Hershey Foods. In 2004, the newspaper was named as one of "10 That Do It Right" by Editor & Publisher magazine. The newspaper has won the Pennsylvania Newspaper Association's Keystone Press Award Division I Sweepstakes, which goes to the large metro newspaper that wins the most journalism awards, in 2004, 2006, and 2010, competing against the newspapers in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Allentown as the smallest paper in that division.

The year 2004 also began a run in the Pennsylvania Newspaper Association's Newspaper of the Year Awards unmatched in the contest's history. The Patriot-News has been either first or second place as the state's Newspaper of the Year for seven years in a row, with first-place wins in 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2010. The contest includes more than 50 newspapers from across the state, including Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

The newspaper's reporters have won the Pennsylvania Newspaper Association's Distinguished Writing Award multiple times, most recently to reporter John Luciew in 2013. The first award went to reporter Jim Lewis in 2001, 2004, and 2005. Reporter Ford Turner won second place in 2008 and first place in 2010.

In 2007, public watchdog reporter Jan Murphy won a First Amendment award from the Associated Press Managing Editors for her stories uncovering profligate spending at PHEAA, the state agency that gives college loans to students. That same year, reporter Ford Turner won the APME's Public Service award for uncovering an unusually high rate of cancer among residents of a small neighborhood of Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania. Murphy also won first prize in investigative reporting from the National Education Writers Association for her stories on PHEAA spending.

The World Association of Newspapers Young Reader Prize for Newspaper in Education in 2007 was awarded to The Patriot-News for its SchoolHouse News program with the Harrisburg School District.

Investigative reporter Pete Shellem, who died in 2009, received widespread recognition for his work in freeing the innocent from prison. Shellem's stories in The Patriot-News resulted in the release of four people who had been convicted of murder: Patty Carbone, who had served 11 years; Steven Crawford, who had served 28 years; Barry Laughman, who had served 16 years; and David Gladden, who had served 12 years. His reporting also freed Charles Dubs, who had served five years on a rape conviction. In The New York Times obituary for Shellem, Barry Scheck, co-director of the Innocence Project at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University, called him "a rare, one-man journalism innocence project."

Crime reporter and Penn State grad Sara Ganim began gaining national attention in the wake of the Penn State sex abuse scandal after coach Jerry Sandusky's indictment in November 2011. Ganim had written a substantial piece in March 2011, when few others were covering the story. Among other follow-ups, she then spoke to two of the mothers of alleged victims for the paper in the immediate wake of the indictment. "You can credit the Patriot-News with giving me the time a reporter needs to cover this kind of story," she said to a New York media columnist who specially noted her coverage. Ganim garnered a number of awards and notices for the reporting   and, in March 2012, the Scripps Howard Award for Community Journalism. In April 2012, Ganim and the news staff were awarded the 2011 Pulitzer Prize for Local Reporting for the coverage.

In 2018, PennLive, and its newly established in-house production company Penn Studios, headed by Director Salim Michel Makhlouf, earned its first Emmy award in the Mid-Atlantic chapter of the National Association of Television Arts and Sciences. They were recognized for their continuing coverage of the opioid crisis in Pennsylvania.

title: The Patriot-News