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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lake Zurich High School (Lake Zurich, Illinois)

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus (18 keep, 12 delete, 2 merge (discounting IP vote)).  Rob e  rt  17:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Lake Zurich High School (Lake Zurich, Illinois)
Nothing distinguishes this school between thousands upon thousands of other cookie cutter schools. [ edit ] 04:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as long as it is verifiable. Jkelly 05:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Joaquin Murietta 05:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Schools/Arguments and please stop listing these as there is no consensus to delete school articles. Silensor 05:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Nor, BTW, is there a consensus to keep. Denni ☯ 01:45, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * There is a concensus, established over the past 10 months, to "not delete" schools simply because they are schools. I will concede there is no "concensus to keep" if you concede that there is a "concensus to 'not delete'".--Nicodemus75 17:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep that up, and you're going to get tangled up in your own words and fall on your ass. Oops, I see you already have. Fact is, there is just plain no consensus. Schools do not get deleted not because the keep votes win, but because lack of consensus always defaults to keep. And what is consensus? A two-thirds vote one way or the other. The break just happens to go your way. It has nothing to do with how a simple majority vote count falls out. Denni ☯ 00:39, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. If it wasn't for the one line of text and infobox, it would be a CSD:A3. See also Schools/Arguments. Instead of a cry to "stop putting these on AfD", how about "stop creating millions of entries about NN schools!".--inksT 08:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * There's not a consensus to keep them either, otherwise the issue wouldn't be so controversial. - Mgm|(talk) 09:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete I agree with inks completely - being a school is not sufficient to be notable enough for a Wikipedia entry --Johntex\talk 09:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, Wikipedia isn't a yellow pages. Once you remove the address and zip code, there's hardly any coherent text left. It appears to have a history, so if someone could put together a few coherent sentences and maybe say whether it was the first x in the area, I could be pursuaded to change my vote. - Mgm|(talk) 09:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Ryan Norton T 09:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep There are thousands of school articles. In a few years there will almost certainly be tens of thousands. They are hardly ever deleted so nominating the odd one is pointless. Please get over this issue and move on to a more productive project. CalJW 10:30, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh? A claim of victory based on sheer weight of numbers, eh? Sounds like Star Wars. We just need a Schools Articles Death Star, and someone to fly an X-Wing into it.--inksT 10:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Please vote the article based on its merits not on it being a school. - Mgm|(talk) 22:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * An article which is primarily about a school is inherently meritorious.--Nicodemus75 17:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete per inks and Mgm. ESkog 12:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep per Schools/Arguments and please stop trying to stifle wikipedia by force of numbers. Kappa 14:12, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's the keepers trying to force numbers here. Being unencyclopedic and basicly contentless is a valid reason for deletion. Why don't you spend a little more time on expanding school articles rather than creating (or supporting the creation) of hordes of ugly stubs? If the articles contained more info a lot less people would tend to delete them. - Mgm|(talk) 22:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * School articles are nominated on the basis of being schools and have to be defended on that basis - if this was about a village or a university it would be left in peace. This stub might not be too beautiful, but it has useful and encyclopedic content and should not require defense. Creating stubs is the fastest way to improve wikipedia's coverage, although I might be making stubs about places in Chad if people didn't keep attacking schools. Kappa 23:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, a school is neither a village or a university. And in any case, most articles on villages and universities contain more info than this pathetic little stub. Perhaps instead of supporting these no-name schools, or creating stubs on villages in Chad, you can put your money where your mouth is and add some much-needed content to soem of these school articles you've been so adamant in saving. Denni ☯ 01:45, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That doesn't seem to be the best use of my time, since any content I added would be in danger of deletion. Kappa 02:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Cop-out, Kappa. Almost all articles face some danger, even if vanishingly small, of deletion. School articles tend, as you have stated several times, to be kept, even in their usually-pathetic state. However, I am not the only deletionist who would vote to keep a school article if it included info that demonstrated notability. You are actually decreasing the likelihood of an article being deleted by adding to it; is that not what you want? Or are you simply voting 'keep' while letting others do the work of ensuring keepability? Denni ☯ 23:20, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The whole point is that deleting "non-notable" schools destroys wikipedia's coverage of education. Most schools aren't any more notable than average, there isn't anything I can do to the article to change that. Kappa 10:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well I could sure run with that one if I wanted, Kappa. But I'll just leave you to ponder how an article listing a school's location, the name of the principal, the number of students, and the school colors could possibly have anything whatsoever to do with education. This depressing description could be of virtually any of the school articles currently on board. Wikipedia is covering nothing except a school census. And thank you for noting that most schools aren't any more notable than average. That being the case, why are we keeping them? We don't keep "average" anything else. Denni ☯ 05:17, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep High Schools. — RJH 15:36, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep high schools. --rob 16:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Schools/Arguments and to reduce the number of totally pointless school articles.--Isotope23 16:48, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with Lake Zurich, Illinois. Yet another tiny little stub that would be better off being merged. Which I thought we'd done before. Don't waste people's time making them click for tiny snippets of info buried among repeat information - a summary table of the schools in the main page is more useful. And don't witter on about expanding or 'organic growth' unless you're going to do it yourself without resorting to mission statements and statements of the bleeding obvious. Average Earthman 22:07, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Mission statements are valuable, per WP:NPOV. Kappa 23:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I've yet to see a school mission statement that is remotely valuable. They all state the blatantly obvious. Average Earthman 08:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This schools mission statement is no exception - "The mission of Lake Zurich High School is to provide a safe and supportive environment in which all students actively participate in the learning process and are challenged to reach their full potential. The High School Learning Community fosters character development while creating well-rounded, lifelong learners who will become productive citizens through a partnership that engages the entire local community." See what I mean? Ever seen a school mission statement which reads "We aim give a patchy education to the few remotely smart kids while keeping the rest of these wretches off the streets for a few hours, and we don't want anything to do with their horrible parents"? Average Earthman 08:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well this mission statement is bland and tries to cover all the bases, but it doesn't say it aims to fulfill the manpower needs of the nation, or to develop in students a respect for authority, so that make it different from some. Kappa 11:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete public schools, even those with astroturf. Gazpacho 00:14, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Another nn school --JAranda | yeah 00:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Astroturf won't get you into the Guinness Book of records. Or, one hopes, into Wikipedia. Denni ☯ 01:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and expand into something interesting. Instead of arguing whether all schools should be included or excluded, we should have a policy that helps editors make a school article worthy of inclusion. What makes this school different from others? Famous graduates? Championship football team? Anyone get shot there? There's something unique about every school. -- Mwalcoff 02:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Go on then, expand it. Seriously. I'm fed up of people saying to keep and expand a stub and not doing so. Whenever I want a stub kept, I try to find a way to expand it - if you can't expand it, it should be merged until any expansion is needed. Average Earthman 08:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * keep this too please it is about an interesting school and the article is neutral an verifiable so we should not erase it Yuckfoo 02:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * If you say that this is an interesting school, you must know information that can expand it. If you don't, how can you say it's an interesting school, rather than just the same as all other schools? If you just want to keep all school articles, please say so, but please don't claim this one is particularly interesting if you don't have any evidence to add. Average Earthman 08:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, high schools are notable and there is active work underway on this article. Andrew pmk | Talk 02:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment.School articles are nominated on the basis of being schools and have to be defended on that basis. No. They are nominated on the basis that they are Not Notable, Not Encyclopedic, or otherwise Not Wikiworthy. Getting into a debate about inherent notability is ridiculous - you should only vote keep if that particular school is notable enough to be in Wikipedia. At the moment, everyone is just voting keep because "it's a school, and we always keep schools". Just look at the reasoning - There's something unique about every school. Come on, there's something unique about everything. Every bus stop, every side street, every person, every house. If that argument were brought out on any other AfD people would be Rolling on the Floor, Laughing. "Keep the article about King Edward Pedestrian Crossing, Namibia, there is something unique about every pedestrian crossing, we should expand it into something interesting". What is this amorphous quality about schools that causes otherwise sensible Wikipedians to throw all logic and reason out the window?--inksT 03:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That's an easy question to answer - its because they are either working in one or still going to one :). Not saying everyone who goes to school votes to keep them, but it can cloud one's judgement if they are not careful. Also, before you vote, see some wisdom from denni. Ryan Norton T 03:15, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Did we mention that we keep colleges, villages, metro stations, Simpsons episodes, Slate journalists, warships, pokemons, albums, pro baseball players and more, all without requiring any more notability than being what they are? If we accept that an established school can be non-notable, we can say goodbye to the ideal of a comprehensive, useful, NPOV wikipedia. Kappa 03:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You've used this argument before, and the response is the same - no one votes to "Keep" an article on a destroyer because "Destroyers are inherently notable". For things other than schools, we can actually have a rational debate regarding notability or other criteria without suffering a Charge of the Schoolwatch Brigade.--inksT 03:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Um no-one even nominates destroyers, because destroyers are considered inherently notable. Kappa 03:32, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You've missed the point. If and when a destroyer, or magazine, or pokemon is nominated for AfD, we can have a rational discussion about notability. All I ask is that we move away from the "X is inherently notable" form of argument, towards a "These are criteria that define notability" form of argument.--inksT 04:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * If and when a destroyer or pokemon is nominated, it gets kept because it's just as notable as all the other destroyers and pokemons. There's no point discussing the general notability of destroyers and pokemons every time. Kappa 04:12, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You've missed the point (again). Arguments that invoke "inherent notability" are a bad idea, because no two schools, or pokemon, or destroyers are created equal. Absol is not notable compared to Pikachu, the Malaysian pocket destroyer "Harimau" is not notable compared to the WW2 destroyer USS Laffey, which is the only surviving ship of it's class, and Lake Zurich High School is not notable compared to Columbine. Can we please, please, please discuss each article on its own merits.--inksT 04:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Absol is not notable compared to Pikachu, but it's notable enough, so it gets an article and happily we don't have to delve into the comparative notability of pokemons and theoretically we have time to do better things. Kappa 04:34, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Please tell me you're not ignoring the point just for the fun of it. I would like nothing better than to delve into the comparative notability of pokemon, if it means an end to the plague of "inherently notable because it's part of a class that has one or two notable elements" arguments.--inksT 04:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I would say not as notable as Pikachu but still plenty notable enough for an article. Just like Pikcahu isn't as notable as George W. Bush. We have articles on both. --Cel e stianpower hablamé 12:36, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not a student, BTW. I think if you have an institution where thousands of people spend half of their weekday waking hours, which costs millions of dollars of taxpayer money to construct and operate, which serves as a focal point of a community -- I'd say that's noteworthy. At least as noteworthy as a Class A minor-league baseball team or an obscure manga comic. -- Mwalcoff 03:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That's a ridiculous conclusion. Schools are inheritly not notable - they are just a pile a bricks. Ask yourself, why are the other articles kept and what makes them notable? The answer is it's connection to people plus uniqueness. People almost never go back to a school they go to - and why do they go back when they actually do? Its because of the teachers, not the pile of cement that is the "school". That's why these articles are doomed to be substub articles with a very low quality for eternity - there is no connection to people here, no notability, just the same thing as the last school article. There is no point in having 99% these around, thus the term "schoolcruft" - they are just there to take up server space. Sorry to those who are offended but it's true - and even if you did expand the article it would be no different then any other article about 99% of the schools here. There are some school articles that are worth having - but almost nothing I've seen come here fits that. What we should do is make an article for the school district and give a blurb for the school there - as, quite frankly, these articles are never going to be nothing more than a blurb and table anyway. While we're at it, if we are going to have an article on every school we should have an article on every person too - because even one teacher at a school is generally more notable then the school itself, and it seems silly to keep schools and not teachers. Ryan Norton T 03:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * School articles aren't about buildings, they are about organizations which shape everyone's lives. They might all look indentical to you, but you are obviously neither interested in the school itself, nor schools in general, so you aren't really the target audience. If you think schools should be covered in school district articles, you should be voting merge, not delete. Kappa 04:02, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well now - first off I disagree that they are "organizations which shape everyone's lives" - they teach - that is their function. That's why if there is an article around here its about a sports program or something of the school - because the schools inheritly all do the same thing. The organization does not do the life-shaping - its the people at the organization. The organization recieves a set sum of money to teach/etc. either from a government or a set of people - thus the inherit non-notability. Also, I am interested in a school article and would like to see a good one but this is not it, neither are most of the other ones I've voted on. As for merge, well, no one else is voting merge here and as merge defaults to keep I'd rather see it deleted in that case (that and there's nothing to merge to). Right now 99% of the school articles here are a small collection of trivia, which does not seem to belong here. Ryan Norton T 04:14, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * My local supermarket shapes my life too as it provides me with food and things to buy, but I'd rather have an article on the company behind the shop than the shop itself. Just like an article on education rather than the school where it's done. I don't think this particular stub increases Wikipedias coverage at all. It barely contains any info. I challenge anyone who thinks schools are inherently notable to enter the Article rescue contest and put your money where your mouth is. Saying you shouldn't expand them because your additions are in danger of being deleted is ridiculous, the more encyclopedic info an entry contains the likelier it is to be kept. Caulfield Grammar School anyone? - Mgm|(talk) 08:58, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete There are tens of thousands of schools in the USA. Should we also list every church, 7-11 store, and gas station? (Unsigned vote by User:67.161.42.199)--inksT 04:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Another clearly unnotable school. Dottore So 06:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with Lake Zurich, Illinois per Schools/Arguments. Sjakkalle (Check!)  08:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Enough WPians (and I am not one of them) are convinced schools are inherently notable, and they have reasonable arguments supporting their position. Let them have their articles. Xoloz 09:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * And those reasonable arguments would be? Ryan Norton T 09:53, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * See #Keep, but briefly, as I understand the arguments, schools are public institutions essential to communities and masses of individuals in their formative years. They are generally fixed in location, and often have long histories.  They are likely each to attract substantial communities of interest to WP.  I don't firmly agree with these points, but I see some value.  My high school, for example, was founded in 1970, with an average class size of 1,000 people.  It serves a city of 70,000, each citizen likely to know it.  It is known across the entire US state, and well-known by adjacent towns, such that I estimate at least 350,000 people know of it and have reason to search for it.  In my state, my school is (or was) average (ie. I looked up class size and campus size when enrolled there, and it was in the middle.)  350,000 potential searchers is good enough, arguably. Xoloz 10:27, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I do firmly believe, however, that these arguments absolutely distinguish schools from boxes, gyms, bars, factories, and all the other general categories to which the are compared by some here. Generally, most students have at least some interest in their school (if only because they are stuck there in young life when they would rather be outside), and I know most parents have an interest in their children's school.  The aggregate community attachment to these places, in my experience, far exceeds community concern for other "buildings," as schools are called here in dimunition by some. Xoloz 10:34, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Sadly, sir, you are quite wrong. Some parents have an interest in their child's school. Most parents do not, though they do have an interest in their child's performance in their school. I speak from many years' experience as a former teacher, attempting to get parental involvement in my school. Good luck. And the higher the grade level, the less likelihood of getting that involvement. Parents are more interested in the local Safeway than in the local school. Laugh if you will, but parents spend more time there, they spend more money there, and they make more decisions regarding groceries than regarding school. It is less likely the Safeway flier will go directly in the recycle bin than the school newsletter. Sad but true. Denni ☯ 23:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * keep. Schools are worthy of having a place on Wikipedia. --ShaunMacPherson 12:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * keep. All school nominations are bad-faith. Hipocrite - « Talk » 14:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think there are quite a few good-faith school nominations, made by people who haven't come across the debate before and don't realise that the nomination will waste many people's time without achieving anything useful. 16:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Nominations are also made by people who continue to believe that the subject of an article must be properly encyclopedic, and seeing a school article with name, address, principal's name, and nothing more, properly challenge such an article as unacceptable. Labelling this as a waste of time is a judgement call. Personally, I do not find it a waste of time to guard against dead air in Wikipedia. Even though most school articles are kept because a lack of consensus defaults to a keep, I will continue to keep the pressure on inclusionists such as yourself to stay honest. That, in my estimation, is quite a worthy goal. Denni ☯ 23:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * In summary, you will continue to nominate schools such that I and others have to keep watching AFD like a hawk to vote keep over and over? WP:POINT applies. Why not just assume that we're around, and stop nominating schools, or participate in some sort of discussion to create reasonable school criteria and stop nominating schools untill then? Hipocrite - « Talk » 19:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * How can I "continue" to nominate schools when I have yet to nominate even one? I respond to articles as they come before AfD, and that is it. If you are going to throw rocks, please take the time to research your target. Yes, I would be happy to participate in some sort of discussion, assuming it wouldn't be the rather one-sided one which seems to happen here, in which deletionists like myself request some restraint in publishing articles on every backwater school on the planet, but inclusionists like yourself insist on keeping each and every one. When "sometimes" can be part of the conversation on both sides, maybe we can get an intelligent conversation happening. Denni ☯ 05:33, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You will continue to "pressurize" people like myself who want to keep wikipedia honest and do the best for its users, by wasting our time and forcing us away from more important topics. A great contribution. Kappa 20:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Honest. Perhaps you can expand on how it is more honest to keep every essentially empty article on every school than it is to choose the best articles, keep them, and demand expansion or deletion of the remainder. Perhaps you might also consider that you are forcing me to waste my time in attempting to keep Wikipedia free of what I see as meaningless drivel. Denni ☯  05:33, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I reject your comment about using this AFD to make people "stay honest".  The creator of *this* article, was entirely honest, as the school is verifiably real.  Now, you're free to vote as you wish, and to think school's are non-notable, but please don't suggest that *this* AFD is about keeping people honest.  Now, if somebody were to create a fake school (yet again), then an AFD would be an entirely appropriate place to keep things honest (by voting to delete).  If such a case happens (again), I will happily vote to delete (again) in that case.  --rob 21:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand entirely what I say. Had I meant to question the motives of the articles author, I would have said so. I was using what is commonly known as "a figure of speech". Who I mean to keep honest is those who vote to keep articles which in any other measure would be deleted as CSD:G1 or CSD:A1, or, if they were about a person, CSD:A7. I am absolutely prepared to challenge these people at every turn, and ensure that they must be here to vote for their precious schools if they wish to keep them. Denni ☯ 05:33, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * In the time I've spent talking here, I could have easily made a quick vote, and created dozens of one-line school stubs. If I did that, I would be as bad as the AFD spammers.  Instead, I haven't, and I have spent time making what I think are decent school articles, and improving others.  The only people school AFD SPAM hurts are those who care, and contribute.  You're discouraging substantial contributions, but doing nothing to discourage mass creation of one-line stubs, or trivial articles.   Perhaps you should focus your attention on those who knowlingly and intentionally create useless articles.  I think it is distressing that you would say your intentionally wasting our time here.  Frankly, if I showed as little respect for your time, as you do for mine, I wouldn't bother writing this comment to you, I would be making a dozen one-line stubs instead.  Perhaps you should re-evaluate who needs to be "kept honest" (don't take offence to my comment, I'm just using a figure of speech). --rob 06:06, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I will try to say this without yelling. I do not discourage substantial contributions. I welcome substantial contributions. I beg for substantial contributions. Is "Rockford High School is a school in Rockford Ontario. Its principal is Ralph Black. It has 360 students. Its school colors are red and blue" a substantial contribution? Only if your expectations are very low. Mine are not. As a matter of fact, these appear to be very much the "trivial articles" you accuse me of doing nothing to discourage. Seems to me I'm doing everything I can to discourage them. And I beg to differ that I am wasting your time. Surely if your (literally) empty articles are worth keeping, they are worth defending. How is that a waste of time? It is not like I brought these to AfD, and it is not like I am setting out to find school articles to bring before AfD. Furthermore, no article gets a free ride on AfD. Did no one tell you that? What it looks like you want is for me to go away so you can have your own way. If you have made decent school articles, then I congratulate you. If they are decent school articles which contain worthwhile and interesting information about the schools they cover, and they come before AfD, I will vote to keep them. If they are like most of the pathetic pieces of drek that float to the surface here (school articles or otherwise), I will vote to delete them. Frankly, if you were writing dozens of one-line stubs instead of writing these comments to me, you would be contributing nothing much different from a large number of the school articles I've voted to delete. And yes indeed, you would be the spammer then. BTW, you can rest assured that I can always find time to assist anyone, deletionist or inclusionist, to hunt down people like Gateway1997 and dispatch him/her with as much extreme prejudice as Wikipedia allows us to muster. I agree that there is absolutely no excuse for that kind of puerile behavior. Denni ☯ 06:46, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I've had enough of my time wasted by him. I'm done with answering his facile and juvenile insults and condescending responses that pepper these AfD discussions. You really should know by now Rob, there is simply no reasoning with Edmontonians.--Nicodemus75 06:19, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * And another sore loser Calgarian slinks off to bed... Denni ☯ 06:46, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Xoloz who explain it very well on why keeping school. School is usually much more than just a name, address and principal. If the school has no student, I will switch my vote to delete. --Vsion 05:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * There are no students during holidays. We could delete the articles then, and recreate them when the students return. :) --inksT 04:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - --Oblivious 13:51, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Yikes, forgot to vote! Denni ☯ 22:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Year-to-date VfD/AfD nominations on schools are 329. 282 of these article have not been deleted. 85% of nominated school articles are not deleted. As far as I'm concerned - that is a concensus not to delete school articles (or stubs) on the basis that they are schools.--Nicodemus75 17:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * No - there is not a consensus to either delete or keep school articles. All this "all school noms are bad-faith" and WP:POINT nonsense isn't helping the situation either. Ryan Norton T 18:22, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I never said there was either of those things. I said that an 85% VfD/AfD survival rate over the past 10 months establishes a "concensus 'not to delete'". I agree there is neither a concensus to keep, nor a concensus to delete - but there is clearly a concensus "not to delete".--Nicodemus75 19:09, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That's a logical fallacy, however, as not all keeps (and even fewer deletes) are based on the "all schools" mantra. In addition, opinions here based on that are sometimes disregarded by the closing administrator (see some of the previous AfDs here), which further shoots holes in that theory (remember, AfD is a discussion about particular articles, not groups of articles). So, what we have here is a rather uneasy 55/45 (well, supposively. With schoolwatch etc. it makes it tough to tell how many regulars really want to keep these articles) standoff. In my early days I was a "school inclusionist" too before I realized wikipedia's goals were more towards an encyclopedia and not a wiki, so I can see where they get their opinions from (although some of the recent ones giving opinions of keep due to thinking that there is a consensus to keep these articles or whatever is pretty bizarre in terms of AfD things). Ryan Norton T 19:32, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I am not sure that someone who looks at the history of school AfDs and sees a ratio of 9:1 "not deleted" and assumes there is some sort of concensus "not to delete schools" is "pretty bizarre". Seems pretty rational to me.--Nicodemus75 20:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * An article which gets 16 votes to delete and 8 votes to keep is kept on the basis of "no consensus" (and please learn how to spell that word). Often, closing admins will require as high as 80 percent votes to be "delete' Before they will close a vote as consensus. An article must get, minimally, 2/3 + 1 votes to delete in order to be deleted, otherwise it is kept. The onus is hugely on the delete side to come up with votes. For consensus, 2/3 + 1 votes is equally required, whether to keep or delete. Since most votes on schools run around 50-50, or maybe 60-40 to keep, there is clearly no consensus for either keep or delete, so please stop trying to convince everyone of your mythical "consensus not to delete". This is not rocket surgery. Denni ☯ 07:12, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. No applicable basis for deletion. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep per Schools/Arguments, and no compelling reason for deletion given.  Un  focused  06:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


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Robert Axelrod (actor)

Robert Axelrod (May 29, 1949 – September 7, 2019), also credited as Axel Roberts and Myron Mensah, was an American actor. He was primarily known for his voice work, which included Digimon, having started voice acting for the English-language versions of anime in 1980; providing the voice of Lord Zedd, the main villain of the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers; and Finster, the original Mighty Morphin Power Rangers monster maker. He also portrayed a sympathetic doctor, Jennings, in The Blob. He also portrayed a Paul McCartney look-alike on the popular sitcom Family Matters, and later in his career appeared in several productions by comedy duo Tim & Eric.

Biography
He was born and raised in New York City. He has said that he wanted to be in the entertainment industry starting in kindergarten after first entertaining his classmates. He started acting in commercials and theater as a child. He then worked as a full-time guitarist in the early 1970s. Then in 1980 he got his start in voice over roles with Banner the Squirrel. He continued throughout the years performing on stage and in 1983 starred in the rock play All the Difference. In 1984 he started working for Saban Entertainment doing voice over and writing for programs including Wowser and Hallo Spencer, which he said were "the two finest products we produced." His agency, Mobile Monicker Productions, noted that he voiced over 150 characters in his career.

Death
Axelrod died in Los Angeles on September 7, 2019, at the age of 70. He had complications from a spinal surgery he had in 2018. He was survived by his sister.

Anime

 * Aesop's Fables - Hare
 * Around the World with Willy Fog - Additional Voices
 * The Big O - Colonel Anthony Gauss - As Axel Roberts
 * Carried by the Wind: Tsukikage Ran - Genma Otagaki
 * Codename: Robotech - Rico
 * Cowboy Bebop - Doctor Londes - As Axel Roberts
 * Digimon Adventure - Wizardmon, Vademon
 * Digimon Adventure 02 - Armadillomon, Ankylomon, Wizardmon, Shakkoumon (Shared with Dave Mallow)
 * Dogtanian and the Three Muskehounds - Blue Falcon, Additional Voices
 * Dragonball - Master Shen
 * Gaiking - Prince Darius, Additional voices
 * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Katakura
 * Grimm's Fairy Tale Classics - Hare
 * Hajime no ippo - Hachinohe
 * Honeybee Hutch - Additional Voices
 * Little Women - Father
 * Lensman - Sol
 * Maple Town - Additional Voices
 * Neo-Tokyo - Tsutomu Sugioka
 * The Noozles - Additional Voices
 * Robotech - Rico (as Axel Roberts)
 * Rurouni Kenshin - Sakata, Additional Voices
 * Samurai Champloo - Roukishi
 * Space Pirate Captain Harlock - Dr. Zero
 * Transformers: Robots in Disguise - Movor
 * Wowser - Ratso Catso
 * Ys - Jenokris

Animation

 * Animated Stories from the New Testament - Bartholomew
 * Chucklewood Critters - George, Easter Bunny
 * Creepy Crawlers - Additional Voices
 * Iznogoud - Additional Voices
 * Jin Jin and the Panda Patrol - Professor Know-A-Lot, Additional Voices
 * Journey to the Heart of the World - Scarface
 * Little Miss - Narrator (USA version)
 * Mickey Mouse Works - Headless Horseman
 * Spider-Man: The Animated Series - Microchip
 * Wisdom of the Gnomes - Additional Voices

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Robert Axelrod (actor)


text:
Haines Junction/Pine Lake Water Aerodrome

Haines Junction/Pine Lake Water Aerodrome was located 4 NM north of Haines Junction, Yukon, Canada and was open from June until October.


text:
Haines Junction Airport

Haines Junction Airport is located 2 NM northwest of Haines Junction, Yukon, Canada. The airport has no scheduled airline service and is served by one fixed wing charter and two helicopter operators. Haines Junction is the gateway to Kluane National Park and Reserve. The airport is also the headquarters for the Yukon Governments Community and Transportation Services Airport Division.

title: Haines Junction Airport


text:
Hyland Airport

Hyland Airport is an airport located near unincorporated Hyland, Yukon, Canada. It has a 100 ft wide runway that receives no maintenance.

title: Hyland Airport


text:
La Biche River Airport

La Biche River Airport is located near La Biche River, Yukon, Canada. It receives limited maintenance and prior permission is required to land.

title: La Biche River Airport


text:
Birth (disambiguation)

Birth or parturition is the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring.

Birth may also refer to:
 * Childbirth, birth in humans

Film and television

 * Birth, a 1917 documentary film by Alfred C. Abadie and Alfred Warman
 * Birth (1984 film), a anime film
 * Birth (2004 film), a film starring Nicole Kidman
 * Birth (2024 film), a Spanish-Romanian drama film
 * Birth (American Horror Story), an episode of American Horror Story
 * "Birth", a Series B episode of the television series QI (2004)

Literature

 * Birth (journal), a medical journal for childbirth research
 * Arm of Kannon or Birth, a manga

Music

 * Birth (album), a 1971 album by Keith Jarrett
 * "Birth" (KAT-TUN song) (2011)
 * Birth (The Peddlers song) (1969)

Other uses

 * Kamen Rider Birth, a character in Japanese drama Kamen Rider OOO

title: Birth (disambiguation)


text:
YHT (disambiguation)

Yüksek Hızlı Tren is the high-speed rail service of the Turkish State Railways.

YHT may also refer to: Youth Health Team
 * Haines Junction Airport, a Canadian airport
 * Yangon Heritage Trust
 * A US Navy hull classification symbol: Heating scow (YHT)

title: YHT (disambiguation)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mattur

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE.  Rob e  rt  17:18, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Mattur
This looks like some sort of advertising spam, not an article fit for an encyclopedia. [ edit ] 04:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Seems like advertising but also is pretty incoherent. Not notable in any case... can't find any evidence on Google that it would be. --W.marsh 05:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete if someone wants to clean it up, I may reconsider--Rogerd 05:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, obvious advertising. Even provides contact information. — J I P | Talk 06:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete =Nichalp   «Talk»=  09:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mattur


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sidewinder (halo map)

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. -R. fiend 00:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC) Its an Halo-map.Its big.


text:
Tomas del Rosario College

Tomas del Rosario College is a private college in Balanga, Bataan, Philippines. It was formerly known as Tomas del Rosario Academy. It became a college in 1994. Students from this school are called "del Rosarians".

Tomas del Rosario College is the only PACU-COA level II accredited private school in Bataan. It currently offers courses in the field of nursing, accounting, management, marketing, banking, education, and computer science.

Location
The college is located along Capitol Drive in Barangay San Jose, Balanga, Bataan.

Courses offered
Basic Education Department
 * K to 12

College Department
 * Bachelor of Science in Accountancy
 * Bachelor of Science in Business Administration major in Marketing Management
 * Bachelor of Science in Business Administration major in Operations Management
 * Bachelor in Elementary Education major in General Education
 * Bachelor in Elementary Education major in Pre-Elementary Education
 * Bachelor of Science in Computer Science
 * Bachelor of Science in Nursing
 * Bachelor of Science in Hotel and Restaurant Management

Graduate School (Trimestral Calendar)
 * Master of Arts in Education major in Educational Management

Teaching methods
College Department:

Junior High School: Philippine Science Classes Curriculum oriented

 * For Regular Students, EC (Enhanced Curriculum) is offered. An extra subject is Added per grade level.
 * Grade 7 (Extra subject) - Environmental science
 * Grade 8 (Extra subject) - Speech (Oral Communication)
 * Grade 9 (Extra subject) - Journalism (Creative Writing)
 * Grade 10 (Extra subject) - Calculus for High School

Senior High School: Academic track/s
 * Science, technology, engineering, and mathematics
 * Accountancy, Business, and Management
 * Humanities and Social Sciences

Elementary and Pre-School: The Teaching Pedagogy implemented in this school for both levels starting S.Y. 2012-2013 comprises a reformed Montessorian method of education, with the principle that we uphold the holistic development and freedom of the student to explore his or her strengths.

Notable alumni

 * Romi Garduce, Mountaineer, TV Personality/Host
 * Darwin Saribay - 3rd Place in the CPA Board Examination — May 2011
 * Teri Onor- Politician / TV Personality
 * Joseph De Leon Yumul- Gold medalist in the Philippine National Skills competition — March 2012, Philippine representative in the 9th ASEAN Skills Competition

Buildings, facilities and landmarks

 * Don Tomas del Rosario Landmark
 * KKK (Kamalig Kalinangang Kabataan)
 * Munting Gubat
 * Speech Laboratory
 * Computer labs
 * 1) BSN lab

title: Tomas del Rosario College


text: User talk:67.119.228.138

title: User talk:67.119.228.138


text: File:Catch Without Arms.jpg

title: File:Catch Without Arms.jpg


text:
Talk:Battōjutsu

Reading the Iaido talk page, it looks like this was once before merged with iaido. At the risk of repeating history, though, if it's a separate martial art, it seems like it should have its own page (rather than a "this is often confused with something else that doesn't have a page" blurb). --Eric's penguin 05:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

i agree, this has its own roots that are separate from Iaido, but maybe someone could do more research to add to the article so it doesn't look like a small waste of server --User:Firstdandude 02:26, 9 September 2006 (CT)

I agree. "Jutsu" is technique and "do" is way. While iaido and battojutsu may both be elements of Japanese Swordsmanship, they are separate activities and should remain separate in Wikipedia. Kendo 66 12:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Most of the part at the end talking about Rurouni Kenshin is crud. The RK version of battojutsu involves pressing the blade of the katana against the curve of the sheath to increase draw speed. This might be fine for Kenshin, because of his reverse-blade sword, but if you tried this with a real Katana, the blade would cut straight through the sheath and probably take a few fingers with it. It happens all the time to inexperienced Iaido practioners who try and use a shinken. Also, some of the "Comparison with Iaido" section is a little bit questionable.

I strongly agree that the "Comparison with Iaido" section is way off. I did not change it because I wanted to raise the issue here first. The "only for defense" thing about Battojutsu is completely wrong, and has no observable basis in reality. The commentary about western gunfighting - though relatively correct technically - seems to have a tennor which is not really correct for Wikipedea (IMO). Perhaps most importantly, everything about this section which is not simply incorrect is stated more clearly and more usefully in the Etymology section. Most importantly the author of this paragraph does not seem to correctly understand the difference in meaning between Iaido and Iaijutsu, which makes the entire paragraph even more confusing for those not already knowledgable in the subject.

I also added a section entitled "outside of Japan" with the intent of giving readers a sense for how few Battojutsu schools do exist in and outside of Japan, and also what those schools might be that are available. I added those schools with which I am personally familiar, I would invite others to add other Ryuha. I did not list names and addresses of individual dojo as that seemed inapropriate for the list, Google can help interested parties find those. I did not add "Shinkendo". The reason for this was that though I have heard that Mr. Obata has refered to his Shinkendo style as Battojutsu, I am not aware if this particular term is really accurate - as I am not knowledgable about the actual curriculum of that school. Perhaps someone who is a current or former student of Shinkendo can add either Shinkendo, or the aproprate progenitor school if such a school exists (Nakamura Ryu?). If Shinkendo turns out to be a contentious topic for some reason, we could discuss it here first before editing. Therealadrian 13:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Iaido also makes use of multiple cuts in some of it's kata, for instance So Giri of the seitei kata. I'm not going to rewrite the section as I don't really know enough about Battōjutsu, but I also agree that it does need it.81.178.253.168 16:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It's my understanding that Shinkendo is based on more than one style.

Naming of the various japanese ryu and other names
Make sure you put in the right name for a wiki-link. As an example: both Muso Shinden-ryu and Musō Jikiden Eishin Ryū have their own seperate article, but they are incorrectly linked in this article. Fred26 11:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the fictional section
There is no point in having one. If we dedicate a section for fictional batto-"users" then we might as well create a "fictional rifle, pistol, whip, sword, sabre, tank, aircraft"-users section as well. Fred26 07:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't understand how you reach this conclusion. Portrayals of Japanese or other eastern sword techniques are much less common than portrayals of the use of such modern weaponry, and the specific mention of battojutsu is even more rare than this.  It would seem to me that the rarity of its use in modern fiction would make it more noteworthy; you're of course correct that to mention every fictional hero who uses a gun would be silly - but how many modern fictional heroes can you name that are specifically said to use battojutsu methods?  I am aware of only two and am an avid consumer of fantasy fiction, historical fiction, and manga & anime, which is where one would expect to find battojutsu in fiction.  Kasreyn (talk) 04:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

 * And now the list is up to 10 entries. 83.255.75.60 (talk) 10:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Check the "in popular culture" section of .44 Magnum for three paragraphs on Dirty Harry. I put the section back in. From (talk) 19:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.244.74.178 (talk)

Just nit-picking here, but the Batto forms associated with the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu are actually comprise their own style entirely, called Yagyu Seigo-ryu Battojutsu. The forms are generally taught together, as the Soke of Shinkage-ryu is also the Soke of Seigo-ryu, and has been for generations, but the two are still considered seperate arts. There are no drawing forms in Shinkage ryu and all batto under that style is actually Seigo-ryu. This is simply what I was told by my instructor. see here: http://www.koryu.com/guide/yagyushinkage.html Gregory MacDonald 01:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove 'iaijutsu' redirect from Iaido and place it on Batto-
I have removed the redirect from Iaijutsu and placed it on Battojutsu. It's not perfect, but this will have to do until a "iaijutsu" page pops up. IMHO "Battojutsu" & "Iaijutsu" are just all names for the same thing. Some of the ryu listed on the page have their own names for what they do in the school, some have Battojutsu and Iaijutsu. It depends on the school, really, as there are no hard and fast rules. Mekugi 11:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not too comfortable with the redirect situation, but rather than argue abut it, I'm just going to start an article at Iaijutsu. Bradford44 12:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good for me!

Mekugi 14:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Battōjutsu


text:
Law court (ancient Athens)

The law courts of ancient Athens (4th and 6th centuries BC) were a fundamental organ of democratic governance. According to Aristotle, whoever controls the courts controls the state.

These courts were jury courts and very large ones: the smallest possible had 200 members (+1 to avoid ties) and sometimes 501, 1000 or 1500. The annual pool of jurors, whose official name was Heliaia, comprised 6000 members. At least on one known occasion the whole six thousand sat together to judge a single case (a plenary session of the Heliaia). This was very different from Rome's laws, as in Rome, jury representatives were elected. The Athenian jurors were chosen randomly by lot, which meant that juries would consist, in theory, of a wide range of members from different social classes. Jurors were chosen on an annual basis, as were all other offices within the state (with the exception of the generals, known as strategoi). After the reforms of Solon in 594/3 BC, anyone from each of the four classes (the pentacosiomedimni, hippeis, zeugites and thetes) could become a juror. This was meant to make the system much fairer to the poorer members of society, who had previously been excluded in favour of the elitist aristocrats.

The archons who convened the courts had a purely administrative function and gave no legal direction or advice to the jurors: there was no judge but the jurors themselves.

From the time of Pericles onwards, jury pay was introduced. This was two obols a day, which, despite not being a substantial amount of money, was enough to encourage even the poorest to become a juror. This was later increased to three obols a day by Cleon.

The law courts in Athens were different and diverse: as time changed they changed too. They originated from the Council of the elite and wealthy who were in charge and ended up being open to any free male who was in the army. Athens valued justice and they had many different reforms as different challenges arose. The Athenian law court was large and decisions were made by majority. The courts could also exile those from society who were gaining too much power and could become tyrants. The laws of Athens also changed as the courts changed to work better with society. “The early Greeks were a litigious lot.”

Physical layout
One source says that the Athenian Courts were held in three different buildings. These three buildings were adjacent to one another and formed a triangle of open space. All three buildings were spacious which allowed for many people to observe the trial. The three buildings are referred to as buildings A, B, C, and D. “Law court A, roofed colonnade; Law court B, rectangular hall; and Law court C and D, a rectangular hall. Law courts A and B shared a wall and were across from Law Court C. Excavations of the area have found a ballot box near the Eastern part of building B, next to building A.” Other sources say that depending on the court its location would change. The courts were around the Agora sometimes and other times, like in a serious case against an official still in office, they were held on the Pnyx which was an open area on a hill. The courts were very large as there were many members of the jury so finding a single building to hold everyone was sometimes difficult. Different scholars say that there were different areas where the trials took place. The trials were diverse in their matters, public and private, and the courts were diverse in their makeups (number of jurors). Most of the trials took place in the main part of the city, the Agora, but some happened throughout the city and surrounding area. Many Athenians would attend trials and participate regardless of the weather.

Makeup of the court
Athens at the beginning of its existence was ruled by a king and a very small group of people called Archons. They made the decisions and served for life. Slowly things began to change as the group which was in power widened, included more people, and they did not serve for a lifetime. Things radically changed when Draco implemented his reforms which made it so that any male who could afford full armor could participate in politics. This greatly changed the court as now “common men” could serve on it and could bring forth a case if their rights had been violated. Solon also brought about reforms, and he kept the Council the ruling body at the time of politics and judicial matters, with four hundred members, a hundred from each tribe. The Council was the most powerful organization and would remain so until after the Persian invasion and more reforms did away with most of the power of the Council. There was further turmoil, however, as people tried to seize power until Cleisthenes made ten tribes where each would send fifty members to the council. Each tribe had no links to the others. After the Persian invasion the Council of Areopagus, still composed of the very wealthy, slowly lost power and the law courts were established as they took over many of the jobs the Council had exercised. These law courts consisted of many jurors who were male and over the age of thirty; most of which were farmers. The amount was different for each trial but was around several hundred to several thousand. This was to prevent corruption as the belief was that no one would be able to bribe several hundred jurors. They had an odd amount of jurors to prevent a tie and the jurors were picked by lot.

Murder
“Murder was the most troubling crime to Athenians.” When a person was murdered, it seemed to cast a pollution or be a fault of society. A murder was considered a two-part crime: one offense being the victim's family and the other being the gods. The entire community was involved and it was very troubling spiritually to the Athenians. Extreme attention was paid to the case to find the murderer to expel them from society so society could be cleansed. The Council of Areopagus, even after losing much of its other power, was still in charge of murder trials. There was a big problem when no person was convicted of the murder. The trial was sent to a different and special court. If this court could not find the person responsible they would blame the weapon. The Athenians would then exile the weapon to help restore society.

Exiling
The Athenians had a way to remove or exile a person from society if they had gained too much power to prevent tyranny. It was not entirely successful in preventing tyrants though. On a certain day in the winter, citizens would come and they had the opportunity to exile an individual. There were ten gates in the Agora, the main building, each gate for a different tribe. The people would come and write a name on an ostracism. If over six thousand ostracism had the same name on them the person would have to leave Athens within ten days. There have been archeology findings that have uncovered many of the shards of ostracism.

Decisions
The decisions of the courts were not originally based on laws. They came from the injured party trying to compensate for their loss. Around 621 BC, under the rule of Dracon, the first written laws came about. He was a reformer who made the first written laws and the laws were considered very harsh. The word draconian came about from these laws which often gave out death as a punishment even for small crimes. Dracon felt that people guilty of small infractions of the law deserved the death penalty. There also came about a distinction of Athenians from all others with his reforms as, “murdering a non-Athenian, for instance, incurred a lesser penalty.” These laws did not last long, not because they led to the rebellion of the people outraged over them, but because of the gap between rich and poor. Different families were quarreling and the rich were only concerned with having the poor pay the debt they owed and the poor were concerned with repaying the debt.15 People then turned to Solon to make the changes because he, “owed no one and no one owed Solon anything.”  He was given almost complete control over the process and both sides appealed to him to help them. Solon canceled all of the debts the poor owed and did other things to solve the problem. He also implemented legal reforms, the biggest of which he got rid of Draco's laws except for those about murder. Solon also allowed for the poor to be members of the jury, also, any male could bring forth a case. The laws the Solon made were numerous and covered all parts of life and society.

title: Law court (ancient Athens)


text:
Spin structure

In differential geometry, a spin structure on an orientable Riemannian manifold (M, g) allows one to define associated spinor bundles, giving rise to the notion of a spinor in differential geometry.

Spin structures have wide applications to mathematical physics, in particular to quantum field theory where they are an essential ingredient in the definition of any theory with uncharged fermions. They are also of purely mathematical interest in differential geometry, algebraic topology, and K theory. They form the foundation for spin geometry.

Overview
In geometry and in field theory, mathematicians ask whether or not a given oriented Riemannian manifold (M,g) admits spinors. One method for dealing with this problem is to require that M have a spin structure. This is not always possible since there is potentially a topological obstruction to the existence of spin structures. Spin structures will exist if and only if the second Stiefel–Whitney class w2(M) ∈ H2(M, Z2) of M vanishes. Furthermore, if w2(M) = 0, then the set of the isomorphism classes of spin structures on M is acted upon freely and transitively by H1(M, Z2). As the manifold M is assumed to be oriented, the first Stiefel–Whitney class w1(M) ∈ H1(M, Z2) of M vanishes too. (The Stiefel–Whitney classes wi(M) ∈ Hi(M, Z2) of a manifold M are defined to be the Stiefel–Whitney classes of its tangent bundle TM.)

The bundle of spinors πS: S → M over M is then the complex vector bundle associated with the corresponding principal bundle πP: P → M of spin frames over M and the spin representation of its structure group Spin(n) on the space of spinors Δn. The bundle S is called the spinor bundle for a given spin structure on M.

A precise definition of spin structure on manifold was possible only after the notion of fiber bundle had been introduced; André Haefliger (1956) found the topological obstruction to the existence of a spin structure on an orientable Riemannian manifold and Max Karoubi (1968) extended this result to the non-orientable pseudo-Riemannian case.

Definition
A spin structure on an orientable Riemannian manifold $$(M,g)$$ with an oriented vector bundle $$E$$ is an equivariant lift of the orthonormal frame bundle $$P_{\operatorname{SO}}(E) \rightarrow M$$ with respect to the double covering $$\rho : \operatorname{Spin}(n) \rightarrow \operatorname{SO}(n)$$. In other words, a pair $$(P_{\operatorname{Spin}}, \phi)$$ is a spin structure on the SO(n)-principal bundle $$\pi: P_{\operatorname{SO}}(E) \rightarrow M$$ when
 * a) $$\pi_{P} : P_{\operatorname{Spin}} \rightarrow M$$ is a principal Spin(n)-bundle over $$M$$, and
 * b) $$\phi: P_{\operatorname{Spin}} \rightarrow P_{\operatorname{SO}}(E)$$ is an equivariant 2-fold covering map such that"$\pi\circ \phi=\pi_P \quad $and$\quad \phi(pq) = \phi(p)\rho(q) \quad$for all $p \in P_{\operatorname{Spin}}$ and $q \in \operatorname{Spin}(n) $.|undefined"

Two spin structures $$(P_1, \phi_1)$$ and $$(P_2, \phi_2)$$ on the same oriented Riemannian manifold are called "equivalent" if there exists a Spin(n)-equivariant map $$f: P_1 \rightarrow P_2$$ such that

 * $$\phi_2\circ f=\phi_1 \quad$$ and $$\quad f(p q) = f(p)q \quad$$ for all $$p\in P_1$$ and $$q \in \operatorname{Spin}(n) $$.

In this case $$\phi_1$$ and $$\phi_2$$ are two equivalent double coverings.

The definition of spin structure on $$(M,g)$$ as a spin structure on the principal bundle $$P_{\operatorname{SO}}(E) \rightarrow M$$ is due to André Haefliger (1956).

Obstruction
Haefliger found necessary and sufficient conditions for the existence of a spin structure on an oriented Riemannian manifold (M,g). The obstruction to having a spin structure is a certain element [k] of H2(M, Z2). For a spin structure the class [k] is the second Stiefel–Whitney class w2(M) ∈ H2(M, Z2) of M. Hence, a spin structure exists if and only if the second Stiefel–Whitney class w2(M) ∈ H2(M, Z2) of M vanishes.

Spin structures on vector bundles
Let M be a paracompact topological manifold and E an oriented vector bundle on M of dimension n equipped with a fibre metric. This means that at each point of M, the fibre of E is an inner product space. A spinor bundle of E is a prescription for consistently associating a spin representation to every point of M. There are topological obstructions to being able to do it, and consequently, a given bundle E may not admit any spinor bundle. In case it does, one says that the bundle E is spin.

This may be made rigorous through the language of principal bundles. The collection of oriented orthonormal frames of a vector bundle form a frame bundle PSO(E), which is a principal bundle under the action of the special orthogonal group SO(n). A spin structure for PSO(E) is a lift of PSO(E) to a principal bundle PSpin(E) under the action of the spin group Spin(n), by which we mean that there exists a bundle map $$\phi$$ : PSpin(E) → PSO(E) such that
 * $$\phi(pg) = \phi(p)\rho(g)$$, for all p ∈ PSpin(E) and g ∈ Spin(n),

where ρ : Spin(n) → SO(n) is the mapping of groups presenting the spin group as a double-cover of SO(n).

In the special case in which E is the tangent bundle TM over the base manifold M, if a spin structure exists then one says that M is a spin manifold. Equivalently M is spin if the SO(n) principal bundle of orthonormal bases of the tangent fibers of M is a Z2 quotient of a principal spin bundle.

If the manifold has a cell decomposition or a triangulation, a spin structure can equivalently be thought of as a homotopy-class of trivialization of the tangent bundle over the 1-skeleton that extends over the 2-skeleton. If the dimension is lower than 3, one first takes a Whitney sum with a trivial line bundle.

Obstruction and classification
For an orientable vector bundle $$\pi_E:E \to M$$ a spin structure exists on $$E$$ if and only if the second Stiefel–Whitney class $$w_2(E)$$ vanishes. This is a result of Armand Borel and Friedrich Hirzebruch. Furthermore, in the case $$E \to M$$ is spin, the number of spin structures are in bijection with $$H^1(M,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$. These results can be easily proven pg 110-111 using a spectral sequence argument for the associated principal $$\operatorname{SO}(n)$$-bundle $$P_E \to M$$. Notice this gives a fibration"$\operatorname{SO}(n) \to P_E \to M$"hence the Serre spectral sequence can be applied. From general theory of spectral sequences, there is an exact sequence"$0 \to E_3^{0,1} \to E_2^{0,1} \xrightarrow{d_2} E_2^{2,0} \to E_3^{2,0} \to 0$"where $$\begin{align} E_2^{0,1} &= H^0(M, H^1(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2)) = H^1(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2) \\ E_2^{2,0} &= H^2(M, H^0(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2)) = H^2(M,\mathbb{Z}/2) \end{align}$$ In addition, $$E_\infty^{0,1} = E_3^{0,1}$$ and $$E_\infty^{0,1} = H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2)/F^1(H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2))$$ for some filtration on $$H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$, hence we get a map"$H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2) \to E_3^{0,1}$"giving an exact sequence"$H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2) \to H^1(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2) \to H^2(M,\mathbb{Z}/2)$"Now, a spin structure is exactly a double covering of $$P_E$$ fitting into a commutative diagram $$\begin{matrix} \operatorname{Spin}(n) & \to & \tilde{P}_E & \to & M \\ \downarrow & & \downarrow & & \downarrow \\ \operatorname{SO}(n) & \to & P_E & \to & M \end{matrix}$$ where the two left vertical maps are the double covering maps. Now, double coverings of $$P_E$$ are in bijection with index $$2$$ subgroups of $$\pi_1(P_E)$$, which is in bijection with the set of group morphisms $$\text{Hom}(\pi_1(E), \mathbb{Z}/2)$$. But, from Hurewicz theorem and change of coefficients, this is exactly the cohomology group $$H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$. Applying the same argument to $$\operatorname{SO}(n)$$, the non-trivial covering $$\operatorname{Spin}(n) \to \operatorname{SO}(n)$$ corresponds to $$1 \in H^1(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2) = \mathbb{Z}/2$$, and the map to $$H^2(M,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$ is precisely the $$w_2$$ of the second Stiefel–Whitney class, hence $$w_2(1) = w_2(E)$$. If it vanishes, then the inverse image of $$1$$ under the map"$H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2) \to H^1(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2)$"is the set of double coverings giving spin structures. Now, this subset of $$H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$ can be identified with $$H^1(M,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$, showing this latter cohomology group classifies the various spin structures on the vector bundle $$E \to M$$. This can be done by looking at the long exact sequence of homotopy groups of the fibration"$\pi_1(\operatorname{SO}(n)) \to \pi_1(P_E) \to \pi_1(M) \to 1$"and applying $$\text{Hom}(-,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$, giving the sequence of cohomology groups"$0 \to H^1(M,\mathbb{Z}/2) \to H^1(P_E,\mathbb{Z}/2) \to H^1(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2)$"Because $$H^1(M,\mathbb{Z}/2)$$ is the kernel, and the inverse image of $$1 \in H^1(\operatorname{SO}(n),\mathbb{Z}/2)$$ is in bijection with the kernel, we have the desired result.

Remarks on classification
When spin structures exist, the inequivalent spin structures on a manifold have a one-to-one correspondence (not canonical) with the elements of H1(M,Z2), which by the universal coefficient theorem is isomorphic to H1(M,Z2). More precisely, the space of the isomorphism classes of spin structures is an affine space over H1(M,Z2).

Intuitively, for each nontrivial cycle on M a spin structure corresponds to a binary choice of whether a section of the SO(N) bundle switches sheets when one encircles the loop. If w2 vanishes then these choices may be extended over the two-skeleton, then (by obstruction theory) they may automatically be extended over all of M. In particle physics this corresponds to a choice of periodic or antiperiodic boundary conditions for fermions going around each loop. Note that on a complex manifold $$X$$ the second Stiefel-Whitney class can be computed as the first chern class $$\text{mod } 2$$.

Examples

 * 1) A genus g Riemann surface admits 22g inequivalent spin structures; see theta characteristic.
 * 2) If H2(M,Z2) vanishes, M is spin. For example, Sn is spin for all $$ n\neq 2 $$. (Note that S2 is also spin, but for different reasons; see below.)
 * 3) The complex projective plane CP2 is not spin.
 * 4) More generally, all even-dimensional complex projective spaces CP2n are not spin.
 * 5) All odd-dimensional complex projective spaces CP2n+1 are spin.
 * 6) All compact, orientable manifolds of dimension 3 or less are spin.
 * 7) All Calabi–Yau manifolds are spin.

Properties

 * The Â genus of a spin manifold is an integer, and is an even integer if in addition the dimension is 4 mod 8.
 * In general the Â genus is a rational invariant, defined for any manifold, but it is not in general an integer.
 * This was originally proven by Hirzebruch and Borel, and can be proven by the Atiyah–Singer index theorem, by realizing the Â genus as the index of a Dirac operator – a Dirac operator is a square root of a second order operator, and exists due to the spin structure being a "square root". This was a motivating example for the index theorem.

SpinC structures
A spinC structure is analogous to a spin structure on an oriented Riemannian manifold, but uses the SpinC group, which is defined instead by the exact sequence
 * $$1 \to\mathbb Z_2\to \operatorname{Spin}^{\mathbf{C}}(n) \to \operatorname{SO}(n)\times\operatorname{U}(1) \to 1.$$

To motivate this, suppose that κ : Spin(n) → U(N) is a complex spinor representation. The center of U(N) consists of the diagonal elements coming from the inclusion i : U(1) → U(N), i.e., the scalar multiples of the identity. Thus there is a homomorphism
 * $$\kappa\times i\colon {\mathrm {Spin}}(n)\times {\mathrm U}(1)\to {\mathrm U}(N).$$

This will always have the element (−1,−1) in the kernel. Taking the quotient modulo this element gives the group SpinC(n). This is the twisted product

 * $${\mathrm {Spin}}^{\mathbb C}(n) = {\mathrm {Spin}}(n)\times_{\mathbb Z_2} {\mathrm U}(1)\, ,$$

where U(1) = SO(2) = S1. In other words, the group SpinC(n) is a central extension of SO(n) by S1.

Viewed another way, SpinC(n) is the quotient group obtained from Spin(n) × Spin(2) with respect to the normal Z2 which is generated by the pair of covering transformations for the bundles Spin(n) → SO(n) and Spin(2) → SO(2) respectively. This makes the SpinC group both a bundle over the circle with fibre Spin(n), and a bundle over SO(n) with fibre a circle.

The fundamental group π1(SpinC(n)) is isomorphic to Z if n ≠ 2, and to Z ⊕ Z if n = 2.

If the manifold has a cell decomposition or a triangulation, a spinC structure can be equivalently thought of as a homotopy class of complex structure over the 2-skeleton that extends over the 3-skeleton. Similarly to the case of spin structures, one takes a Whitney sum with a trivial line bundle if the manifold is odd-dimensional.

Yet another definition is that a spinC structure on a manifold N is a complex line bundle L over N together with a spin structure on TN ⊕ L.

Obstruction
A spinC structure exists when the bundle is orientable and the second Stiefel–Whitney class of the bundle E is in the image of the map H2(M, Z) → H2(M, Z/2Z) (in other words, the third integral Stiefel–Whitney class vanishes). In this case one says that E is spinC. Intuitively, the lift gives the Chern class of the square of the U(1) part of any obtained spinC bundle. By a theorem of Hopf and Hirzebruch, closed orientable 4-manifolds always admit a spinC structure.

Classification
When a manifold carries a spinC structure at all, the set of spinC structures forms an affine space. Moreover, the set of spinC structures has a free transitive action of H2(M, Z). Thus, spinC-structures correspond to elements of H2(M, Z) although not in a natural way.

Geometric picture
This has the following geometric interpretation, which is due to Edward Witten. When the spinC structure is nonzero this square root bundle has a non-integral Chern class, which means that it fails the triple overlap condition. In particular, the product of transition functions on a three-way intersection is not always equal to one, as is required for a principal bundle. Instead it is sometimes −1.

This failure occurs at precisely the same intersections as an identical failure in the triple products of transition functions of the obstructed spin bundle. Therefore, the triple products of transition functions of the full spinc bundle, which are the products of the triple product of the spin and U(1) component bundles, are either 12 = 1 or (−1)2 = 1 and so the spinC bundle satisfies the triple overlap condition and is therefore a legitimate bundle.

The details
The above intuitive geometric picture may be made concrete as follows. Consider the short exact sequence 0 → Z → Z → Z2 → 0, where the second arrow is multiplication by 2 and the third is reduction modulo 2. This induces a long exact sequence on cohomology, which contains

 * $$\dots \longrightarrow \textrm H^2(M;\mathbf Z) \stackrel {2} {\longrightarrow} \textrm H^2(M;\mathbf Z) \longrightarrow \textrm H^2(M;\mathbf Z_2) \stackrel {\beta}\longrightarrow \textrm H^3(M;\mathbf Z) \longrightarrow \dots ,$$

where the second arrow is induced by multiplication by 2, the third is induced by restriction modulo 2 and the fourth is the associated Bockstein homomorphism β.

The obstruction to the existence of a spin bundle is an element w2 of H2(M,Z2). It reflects the fact that one may always locally lift an SO(n) bundle to a spin bundle, but one needs to choose a Z2 lift of each transition function, which is a choice of sign. The lift does not exist when the product of these three signs on a triple overlap is −1, which yields the Čech cohomology picture of w2.

To cancel this obstruction, one tensors this spin bundle with a U(1) bundle with the same obstruction w2. Notice that this is an abuse of the word bundle, as neither the spin bundle nor the U(1) bundle satisfies the triple overlap condition and so neither is actually a bundle.

A legitimate U(1) bundle is classified by its Chern class, which is an element of H2(M,Z). Identify this class with the first element in the above exact sequence. The next arrow doubles this Chern class, and so legitimate bundles will correspond to even elements in the second H2(M, Z), while odd elements will correspond to bundles that fail the triple overlap condition. The obstruction then is classified by the failure of an element in the second H2(M,Z) to be in the image of the arrow, which, by exactness, is classified by its image in H2(M,Z2) under the next arrow.

To cancel the corresponding obstruction in the spin bundle, this image needs to be w2. In particular, if w2 is not in the image of the arrow, then there does not exist any U(1) bundle with obstruction equal to w2 and so the obstruction cannot be cancelled. By exactness, w2 is in the image of the preceding arrow only if it is in the kernel of the next arrow, which we recall is the Bockstein homomorphism β. That is, the condition for the cancellation of the obstruction is

 * $$W_3=\beta w_2=0$$

where we have used the fact that the third integral Stiefel–Whitney class W3 is the Bockstein of the second Stiefel–Whitney class w2 (this can be taken as a definition of W3).

Integral lifts of Stiefel–Whitney classes
This argument also demonstrates that second Stiefel–Whitney class defines elements not only of Z2 cohomology but also of integral cohomology in one higher degree. In fact this is the case for all even Stiefel–Whitney classes. It is traditional to use an uppercase W for the resulting classes in odd degree, which are called the integral Stiefel–Whitney classes, and are labeled by their degree (which is always odd).

Examples

 * 1) All oriented smooth manifolds of dimension 4 or less are spinC.
 * 2) All almost complex manifolds are spinC.
 * 3) All spin manifolds are spinC.

Application to particle physics
In particle physics the spin–statistics theorem implies that the wavefunction of an uncharged fermion is a section of the associated vector bundle to the spin lift of an SO(N) bundle E. Therefore, the choice of spin structure is part of the data needed to define the wavefunction, and one often needs to sum over these choices in the partition function. In many physical theories E is the tangent bundle, but for the fermions on the worldvolumes of D-branes in string theory it is a normal bundle.

In quantum field theory charged spinors are sections of associated spinc bundles, and in particular no charged spinors can exist on a space that is not spinc. An exception arises in some supergravity theories where additional interactions imply that other fields may cancel the third Stiefel–Whitney class. The mathematical description of spinors in supergravity and string theory is a particularly subtle open problem, which was recently addressed in references. It turns out that the standard notion of spin structure is too restrictive for applications to supergravity and string theory, and that the correct notion of spinorial structure for the mathematical formulation of these theories is a "Lipschitz structure".

title: Spin structure


text:
Lon Milo DuQuette

Lon Milo DuQuette (born July 11, 1948), also known as Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford and by his neo-Gnostic bishop title of Tau Lamed, is an American writer, lecturer, musician, and occultist, best known as an author who applies humor in the field of Western Hermeticism.

Early life
Lon Milo DuQuette was born in Long Beach, California and raised in Columbus, Nebraska. He was an aspiring studio musician and recording artist in the 1970s, releasing two singles and an album, Charley D. and Milo, on the Epic Records label. He and his partner Charles Dennis Harris, aka Charley Packard (now deceased), opened for Hoyt Axton, Arlo Guthrie and performed with Sammy Davis Jr.

Career
In 1972, DuQuette quit the music business and for the next 25 years he pursued his interest in mysticism, particularly the work of Aleister Crowley (1875–1947). He is on the faculty of the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies in Rhinebeck, New York where he teaches The Western Magical Tradition.

Ordo Templi Orientis
Since 1975 DuQuette has been a National and International governing officer of Ordo Templi Orientis, a religious and fraternal organization founded in the early part of the 20th century. Since 1996 he has been O.T.O.'s United States Deputy Grand Master. He is also an Archbishop of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, the ecclesiastical arm of O.T.O.

Writing
DuQuette began writing professionally in 1988 and has since published 19 books (translated in 12 languages). Many of his books have been dedicated to analyzing and exploring the works of Aleister Crowley, an English occultist, author, poet and philosopher. He has written a number of successful books on topics in the Western mystical tradition including: Freemasonry, Tarot, Qabalah, ceremonial magick, the Enochian magick of Dr. John Dee, and Goetic spirit evocation. He is perhaps best known as "an author who injects humor into the serious subjects of magick and the occult." His autobiography, My Life with the Spirits, is currently a required text for two classes at DePaul University, Chicago.

Return to music
A 2005 gift of a ukulele re-ignited DuQuette's interest in music. Two self-released CDs and a new record contract followed. In 2012, DuQuette released I'm Baba Lon on Ninety Three Records, his first studio album in 40 years. On September 3, 2012, Ninety Three released the follow-up, Baba Lon II.

Personal life
DuQuette is married to his high school sweetheart, Constance Jean Duquette. They live in Sacramento, California and have one son.

Books

 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: & Aleister Crowley, Christopher Hyatt: Enochian World of Aleister Crowley: Enochian Sex Magick, New Falcon, 1991.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: & Christopher Hyatt: Sex Magic, Tantra & Tarot: The Way of the Secret Lover, New Falcon, 1991.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: & Aleister Crowley, Christopher Hyatt: Aleister Crowley's Illustrated Goetia: Sexual Evocation, New Falcon, 1992.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Tarot of Ceremonial Magick: A Pictorial Synthesis of Three Great Pillars of Magick: Enochian, Goetia, Astrology, Weiser Books, 1995.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Angels, Demons & Gods of the New Millennium, Weiser Books, 1997.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: My Life With the Spirits: The Adventures of a Modern Magician, Weiser Books, 1999.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford: Dilettante's Guide to What You Do and Do Not Need to Know to Become a Qabalist, Weiser Books, 2001.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: The Magick of Aleister Crowley: A Handbook of the Rituals of Thelema, Weiser Books, 2003.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, Weiser Books, 2003.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: The Book Of Ordinary Oracles, Weiser Books, 2005.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: The Key to Solomon's Key: Secrets of Magic and Masonry, Ccc Publishing, 2006.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Enochian Vision Magick, Weiser Books, 2008.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Low Magick: It's All In Your Head... You Just Have No Idea How Big Your Head Is, Llewellyn Publications, 2010.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Ask Baba Lon: Answers to Questions of Life & Magick, New Falcon Publications, 2011.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo & Bratkowsky, James M: Revolt of the Magicians, Orobas Press, 2011.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Homemade Magick: The Musings & Mischief of a Do-It-Yourself Magus, Llewellyn Publications, 2014.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Son of Chicken Qabalah: Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford's Mostly Painless Qabalah Course, Weiser Books, 2018.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: Allow Me To Introduce: An Insider's Guide to the Occult Weiser Books, 2020.
 * DuQuette, Lon Milo: An Accidental Christ: The Story of Jesus as Told by His Uncle, Llewellyn Publications, 2023.

Music

 * Charley D. And Milo—Charley D. Harris and Lon Milo DuQuette, Epic, 1970.
 * I'm Baba Lon, Ninety Three Records, 2012.
 * Baba Lon II, Ninety Three Records, 2012.
 * Gentle Heretic, Ninety Three Records, 2013.
 * Sweet Baba Lon, Ninety Three Records, 2015.

Other media

 * Lon Milo DuQuette's Enochian Magick - The Art of Angelic Evocation, Hooded Man Productions. 1994.
 * Magical Egypt, Cydonia, Inc. 2000.
 * Qabalah For the Rest of Us, Cydonia, Inc. 2002.
 * The Great Work, Cydonia, Inc. 2008.
 * Lon Milo DuQuette Live and Uncensored—Tarot Kabbalah & Oracles, Cydonia, Inc. 2005.
 * The Call—Dieter Müh and Lon Milo Duquette, HaemOccult, 2009.
 * Tarot of Ceremonial Magic Deck which was revised 2020 by Next Millennium

title: Lon Milo DuQuette


text: User talk:71.107.151.142

title: User talk:71.107.151.142


text:
Talk:Terrorism in Pakistan

Pakistan faces joining FATF's 'Dark Grey' list
Please add that "Pakistan faces joining FATF's 'Dark Grey' list". This is according to the latest news which can be found online! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:2819:6296::1 (talk) 03:05, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

 * Please provide a reliable source that directly supports your proposed addition. Afterwards, write an encyclopedic sentence that should be added to the article. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 03:21, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * This can be cited as a reference: https://www.m.timesofindia.com/world/pakistan/pakistan-isolated-by-all-countries-in-fatf-on-verge-of-being-in-dark-grey-list/amp_articleshow/71586863.cms
 * The sentence may be, "Pakistan is on the verge of strong action by the international terror financing watchdog Financial Action Task Force (FATF) and the country may be put in the 'Dark Grey' list, the last warning to improve". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:2819:6296:0:0:0:1 (talk) 03:43, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The is no official statement stating that it is in 'Dark Grey' list. Official announcement could come on 18 October. Your source could not confirm. Request you to wait till the official announcement comes. Brown Chocolate (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

This page is a joke
There are dozens and dozens of books on terrorism in Pakistan. All that is here is one unsourced paragraph! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

April
Those edit warring for the inclusion of the content have not bothered to try to justify their insertion. I invite them to utilize this section to do so. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 11:03, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

 * What is pov about it? You said content "should not be written in Wikipedia's voice" and it's not since words like "accused of" suffice for neutrality, does it not? Uzek (talk) 11:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

 * It is abjectly untrue that NPOV and BLP only require you to insert "accused" before levelling a string of allegations and leaving out large parts of the story that do not align with those allegations. The whole paragraph is written with sources that stick to the pakistani stance. It ignores his mistreatment, lack of fair trial, retirement from military service, the refusal to allow consular access, intervention of the ICJ, so on and so forth, all of which is central to his case. The whole paragraph was a gross violation of our BLP and NPOV policies. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 11:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * A follow-up sentence like "a charge India denies" sourced from Indian sources would be enough for WP:BALANCE. Details about his "mistreatment" etc are not relevant for this article per WP: NOTEVERYTHING and should rather go to his BLP. Just as irrelevant details about his arrest, alleged espionage activities etc are not included here. Uzek (talk) 11:54, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 100%. You don't resolve WP:BALANCE issues by deleting material; you balance it. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:54, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Nope. You are assigning too simplistic solutions for BLP and NPOV violations. Cant just stick some over-repeated words in and call it balanced. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 21:10, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @CapnJackSp: You have not yet brought forth any sources to that contradict the current factual statements about the conviction based on the New York Times, a WP:RSP, nor the confession, which also seems fairly straightforward. Any details additional to that, allegations of mistreatment, etc., are exactly that: additions, which also just need sources from you. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:13, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * A one sided POV edit about a BLP subject is subject to be removed immediately. I am willing to add a section with the necessary context. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There's nothing BLP here. A dude was convicted in court, as factually reported according to an WP:RSP. The only thing POV here is the tendentious deleting of the same; adding context is something that can be done at any point without deleting the core facts. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:11, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * He was convicted by military trial, without fair representation, denied consular access, possibly tortured. A conviction that was overturned by the International court of justice for being "internationally wrongful acts of a continuing character", alongside the repeated denial of consular access.
 * Even his being arrested in Balochistan is simply a claim by Pakistan, not accepted by everyone. It also leaves gaping holes in the story told according to Pakistani POV. All this, and still is he just a dude who got convicted? Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 22:40, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * How is replacing a New York times and a Pakistani source with exclusively Indian sources balanced and NPOV? You also deleted the previous content and replaced it with a whitewashed WP: CENSORED version. Uzek (talk) 22:47, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, please read WP:NPOVHOW to avoid senseless edit wars in the future. No such rule exists that just because you think material is not balanced, it MUST be deleted. Uzek (talk) 22:51, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The edit war carried out because people kept trying to force the content without a sense of balance, including you. It only ended when I opened this section for discussion, though the the onus was on you to discuss and get consensus. In future, do not attempt to force changes through without gaining consensus first. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 00:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That pakistani source is a transcript, not an analysis; the content was available there already. I have no issues with using New York times, but the content for it is already there and is cited.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 00:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Some claims, like his arrest from within balochistan are contested by the Indian side. I have added attribution where necessary. Do go through it once. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 00:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have edited out WP:UNDUE WP:WEIGHT given to the Jadhav's case. A single sentence of India's denial would suffice. Oriental Aristocrat (talk) 07:05, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It does not suffice, given the gross violations of his rights. Do not reinstate your edits. This has been discussed in this section before. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Both accusations and denials should be stated in a straight forward manner and left as they are. No need to tweak in pov words in either.
 * Also, the last sentence does look very off/irrelevant. Why do you think it's needed?
 * Uzek (talk) 08:50, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The one about ICJ making the current conviction null and void, and about lapses from pakistan's side? Thats for BLP, we are required to be careful while making allegations against suspects. While he was indeed "convicted", as stated above, it was nullified by the ICJ. It is important to clarify that part.
 * Also you said it was too much, would you say what is appropriate? Because right now we state the Pakistani POV as fact, and Indian POV as Indian POV.
 * Ive modified the para slightly, to add attributions. Ive also removed the quotation marks, since I couldnt find the phrase in the Dawn article at all. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 11:26, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Before making any further edits to the article, please seek consensus by proposing the edit you want to make, here. Multiple editors have already asked you to avoid adding unnecessary details. Oriental Aristocrat (talk) 13:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You are warned not to edit war to restore the version everyone except you agrees is wrong. You are only disrupting the dispute resolution process. This is sanctionable behaviour.
 * You are also lying when you call it the status quo version. You are inserting your own revision, made on 9th April, against consensus, which you have since then edit warred in trying to introduce. I would advise you to self revert immediately, and if not, I will be reverting it myself. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 15:47, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 January 2024
my request is that Pakistan neither promotes terrorism nor support terrorism but terrorism is thrown from outside on Pakistan and as you mentioned that from year 2000 terrorism is started in Pakistan, which your words indicate that from western world waves of terrorism come on Pakistan. 2401:BA80:A120:7515:17AE:ADF6:A681:4D25 (talk) 03:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 03:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Terrorism in Pakistan


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tony Buckner

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE.  Rob e  rt  17:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Tony Buckner
As I read WP:CSD this isn't elligble. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. Anyway this article sportscruft, it's an event that occured 4 hours ago, there's no plausible way to verify that this nickmake is notable and used by anyone but the guy who wrote this article. Doesn't really warrant an article even if people actually do use the nickname, just mention it on the bio page. W.marsh 05:08, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article cited as reference just compares the two.  It doesn't rename hime.  Jkelly 05:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Tony Graffanino --Trovatore 05:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete there is no such person --Rogerd 05:52, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Jkelly. the wub  "?!"  12:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as unverifiable and neologistic nickname.--Isotope23 16:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete obviously Dottore So 06:45, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.