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History of role-playing games

The history of role-playing games begins with an earlier tradition of role-playing, which combined with the rulesets of fantasy wargames in the 1970s to give rise to the modern role-playing game. A role-playing game (RPG) is a type of game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Traditionally all the participants but one take on characters and determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines, and one of the participants takes on the role of game master (or GM for short) who narrates the story, plays all the non-player characters and determine the challenge rating and the outcome of various actions. Within the rules, the participants may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

Role-playing games are substantially different from competitive games such as ball games and card games. This has led to confusion among some non-players about the nature of fantasy gaming. The game Dungeons & Dragons was a subject of controversy in the 1980s when well-publicized opponents claimed it caused negative spiritual and psychological effects. Academic research has discredited these claims. Some educators support role-playing games as a healthy way to hone reading and arithmetic skills. Though role-playing has been accepted by some religious organizations, a few continue to object.

Media attention both increased sales and stigmatized certain games. In thirty years the genre has grown from a few hobbyists and boutique publishers to an economically significant part of the games industry, though grass-roots and small business involvement remains substantial. Games industry company Hasbro purchased fantasy game publisher Wizards of the Coast in 1998 for an estimated $325 million.

Early role-playing
Historical re-enactment has been practiced by adults for millennia. The ancient Han Chinese organized events in which participants pretended to be from an earlier age with entertainment appearing to be the primary purpose of these activities. In 16th century Europe, traveling teams of players performed a form of improvisational theatre known as the Commedia dell'arte, with stock situations, stock characters and improvised dialogue. In the 19th and early 20th century, many board games and parlour games such as the game Jury Box included elements of role-playing. At the same time in Shanghai, role-playing characters from literature works was an integral part of the Chinese courtesan behavior. Mock trials, model legislatures, and the "Theatre Games" created by Viola Spolin arose, in which players took on the roles of characters and improvised, but without the formalised rules which would characterise modern role-playing games.

There is some evidence that assassin-style games may have been played in New York city by adults as early as 1920. A murder mystery game in which a murder was performed by saying, "You're dead," was mentioned in Harpo Marx's autobiography, Harpo Speaks!, in a section covering the 1920s. In the 1960s, historical reenactment groups gave rise to "creative history" games, which probably originate with the founding of the Society for Creative Anachronism in Berkeley, California on May 1, 1966. A similar group, the Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia, began holding events on the University of Maryland, College Park in 1969. These groups were largely dedicated to accurately recreating medieval history and culture, however, with only mild fantasy elements, and were probably mostly influenced by historical re-enactment.

Wargames
Wargames have origins in ancient strategy games, particularly chess. It originated as chaturanga, created in the 6th-century Indian subcontinent as a simulation of ancient Indian warfare, particularly the Kurukshetra War (from the Indian epic Mahabharata), with pieces representing roles such as rajas, mantri (counselers), infantry, cavalry, chariots and war elephants. Chaturanga is considered the most ancient ancestor of Dungeons & Dragons. According to RPG designer John Wick, Chess can be turned into a role-playing game if chess pieces such as the king, queen, rooks, knights or pawns are given names, and decisions are made based on their motivations. According to Wick, Dungeons & Dragons was a "sophisticated, intricate and complicated combat simulation board game that people were turning into a roleplaying game" just "like giving your rook a motive" in Chess.

In Europe, from the late 18th century to the 19th century, chess variants evolved into modern wargames. Drawing inspiration from chess, Helwig, Master of Pages to the Duke of Brunswick, created a battle emulation game in 1780. According to Max Boot's book War Made New (2006, pg 122), sometime between 1803 and 1809, the Prussian General Staff developed war games, with staff officers moving metal pieces around on a game table (with blue pieces representing their forces and red pieces those of the enemy), using dice rolls to indicate random chance and with a referee scoring the results. Increasingly realistic variations became part of military training in the 19th century in many nations, and were called "Kriegsspiele" or "wargames". Wargames or military exercises are still an important part of military training today.

Wargaming moved from professional training to the hobby market with the publication of Little Wars, children's toy soldier game, by H.G. Wells in 1913. A niche hobby of wargaming emerged for adults that recreated model games around actual battles from the Napoleonic period onward. Although a single marker or miniature figure typically represented a squad of soldiers, some "skirmish level" or "man to man" games did exist where one figure represented one entity only. The board wargame Diplomacy, invented by Allan B. Calhamer in 1954 and released in 1959, made social interaction and interpersonal skills part of its gameplay. A live-action variant of Diplomacy named Slobbovia was used for character development rather than conflict.

Late 1960s to early 70s: fantasy elements and the dawn of Tabletop RPGs
In the late 1960s, fantasy elements were increasingly used in wargames. Linguist M. A. R. Barker began to use wargame-like sessions to develop his creation Tékumel. In 1970, the New England Wargamers Association demonstrated a fantasy wargame called Middle Earth at a convention of the Military Figure Collectors Association. Fantasy writer Greg Stafford created the board wargame White Bear and Red Moon to explore conflicts in his fantasy world Glorantha, though it did not see publication until 1974. A wargame session was held at the University of Minnesota in 1969, with Dave Wesely as the moderator, in which the players represented single characters in a Napoleonic scenario centering on a small town named Braunstein. This did not lead to any further experimentation in the same vein immediately, but the ground had been laid. It actually bore greater resemblance to later LARP games than what would conventionally be thought of as a role-playing game. Wesely would, later in the year, run a second "Braunstein," placing the players in the roles of government officials and revolutionaries in a fictional banana republic.

Gary Gygax and Jeff Perren of Lake Geneva's wargaming society developed a set of rules for a late medieval milieu under the influence from Siege of Bodenburg. This unusual wargame saw publication in 1971 under the name Chainmail. Although Chainmail was a historical game, later editions included an appendix for adding fantasy elements such as wizards and dragons. The two games, one of Wesely's along with the Chainmail ruleset, would be used partially by Dave Arneson who was a participant to Wesely's sessions, to focus his ideas regarding a fantasy realm known as Blackmoor, and by 1971, Arneson would be running what could be conventionally recognized as a role-playing game based on his Blackmoor world. Blackmoor contained core elements that would become widespread in fantasy gaming: hit points, experience points, character levels, armor class, and dungeon crawls. Like the wargames it grew from, Blackmoor used miniature figures and terrain grids to illustrate the action. The key difference with the Blackmoor games, which allowed it to become a game distinct from the wargame-based Braunsteins, was the ability of the players to set their own character goals, in addition to the scenario goals set by Arneson. Arneson and Gygax then met and collaborated on the first Dungeons & Dragons game.

1974 to early 80s: the first modern RPGs, growth of the industry and controversy

The first commercially available role-playing game, Dungeons & Dragons (D&D), was published in 1974 by Gygax's TSR which marketed the game as a niche product. Gygax expected to sell about 50,000 copies. After establishing itself in boutique stores it developed a cult following among college students and SF fandom. The game's growing success spawned cottage industries and a variety of peripheral products. In a few years other fantasy games appeared, some of which having a similar look and feel of the original game. One of the earliest competitors was Tunnels and Trolls (1975).

Other early fantasy games included Empire of the Petal Throne (1974/75), Chivalry & Sorcery (1977), Arduin (1977) and RuneQuest (1978). Meanwhile, Science Fiction role-playing was introduced in Metamorphosis Alpha (1976), Traveller (1977) and Gamma World (1978) while the Superhero genre was first represented by Superhero: 2044 (1977). Empire of the Petal Throne and City State of the Invincible Overlord (1976) pioneered the concept of ready-made campaign settings. Live-action groups such as Dagorhir were started, and organized gaming conventions and publications such as Dragon Magazine (1976–) catered to the growing hobby.

From 1977 to 1979, TSR launched Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D). This ambitious project expanded the rules to a small library of hardcover books. These covered such minutiae as the chance of finding a singing sword in a pile of loot or the odds of coaxing gossip from a tavern keeper. Optional modules in the form of small booklets offered prepared adventure settings. The first edition Dungeon Master's Guide published in 1979 included a recommended reading list of twenty-five authors. Literary and mythological references helped draw new fans to the game. During this time, the genre drew nationwide attention and fan base expanded to teens and lower. However, success became a mixed blessing for TSR. The company was involved in some legal disputes and criticism from mainstream media and religious fundamentalist groups was increasing. Many claimed that TSR's games contained demonic rituals and directly led to suicide attempts by its players. Religious organizations made pamphlets warning of the dangers of role-playing games, and public advocacy groups like Bothered about Dungeons & Dragons were formed in a failed attempt to remove the game from game store shelves. The company underwent dramatic growth, peaking at 300 employees in 1984.

New publishers entered the scene, such as Chaosium (RuneQuest, 1978 and Call of Cthulhu, 1981), Iron Crown Enterprises (RoleMaster, 1980), Palladium (The Mechanoid Invasion, 1981), Victory Games (James Bond 007 RPG, 1983), and West End Games (Paranoia, 1984). These games were all based on a characteristics/skill system, following the trail blazed by Traveller.

Role-playing games began to influence other media. A new genre of video games arose from early mainframe computer imitations of RPGs, with Akalabeth and Rogue both published in 1980; the genre inherited many of the settings and game mechanics of RPGs as well as the name, and went on to have its own varied history. During this time, RPG-themed adventure gamebooks and solitaire RPGs such as Choose Your Own Adventure (1979–), Endless Quest (1982–) and Fighting Fantasy (1982–) series also gained popularity. An animated television series based on Dungeons & Dragons was produced in 1983, also called Dungeons & Dragons.

Mid-1980s to early 90s: competition among various settings and systems
The second edition of Dungeons & Dragons, launched in 1988, downplayed literary elements to reduce objections. Surviving artifacts of this heritage and its influence on the wider gaming community include widespread use of Tolkienesque character types and the persistence of the gaming term "vorpal." Borrowed from Lewis Carroll's poem Jabberwocky, this was the first edition's most powerful magic sword.

Up to this stage, each game had tied itself to a particular setting; If a player wanted to play in a science-fiction game and a fantasy game, they had to learn two game systems. Attempts were made in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons to allow cross-genre games using Gamma World (1978) and Boot Hill (1975) rules, but the obscure rules went largely unused. Some companies bucked this trend, however. Chaosium produced a book titled Basic Role-Playing (1981), which was the first generic role-playing game system. It originated in the fantasy-oriented RuneQuest role-playing game rules and was used in Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer (1981) and other games. The Hero System, first introduced in Champions (1981), was also used in Justice, Inc. (1984), Fantasy Hero (1985) and other games. Steve Jackson Games followed with GURPS (the Generic Universal Roleplaying System) in 1986.

Champions (1981) also introduced game balance between player characters to role-playing games. Whereas in Dungeons & Dragons players created characters randomly using dice, newer games began to use a system whereby each player was given a number of character points to spend to get characteristics, skills, advantages, getting more points by accepting low characteristics, disadvantages, and so forth.

The game Ars Magica (1988) emphasized characterization and storytelling over game mechanics and combat. The game was brought to White Wolf, Inc. by co-author Mark Rein-Hagen, who took the same approach in his game Vampire: The Masquerade (1991), a gothic horror themed game whose setting appealed to the growing Goth subculture; the game was a success and spawned a number of spinoffs which were brought together as the World of Darkness. This style of storytelling game lent itself well to live-action role-playing games. Meanwhile, Jonathan Tweet, the other author of Ars Magica, wrote Over the Edge (1992) and Everway (1995), games light on rules content or power gaming but which set the tone for later generations of less conventional RPGs.

International market
Translations allowed the hobby to spread to other countries. New games began to be produced outside America, such as Midgard (1981) and The Dark Eye (1984) in Germany, Drakar och Demoner (1982) in Sweden, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1986) in the United Kingdom, Adventurers of the North - Kalevala Heroes (1989) in Finland and Enterprise: Role Play Game in Star Trek (1983) and Sword World RPG (1989) in Japan.

In Italy, the hybrid sci-fi adventure boxed game VII Legio (1982) containing RPG elements and original role-playing games by local authors - I Signori del Caos in 1983 and Kata Kumbas in 1984 - preceded the translation of Dungeons & Dragons in 1985 and of many other foreign titles. Besides many truly old-school games, local designers released quite original games as the completely narrative Holmes & Company (1987) - a detective game with not even rules for combat - and On Stage! (1995), where players bid for the control of each scene and actually take in turns the role of game master. Role-playing games have a widespread use in schools and libraries; public institutions even released easy role-playing games to be freely distributed for that purpose to teachers and librarians, like Orlando Furioso (City Council of Rome, 1993) and Giocastoria (City Council of Modena, 1998).

France was hit by the role-playing wave in the mid-1980s, as seen by the translations into French of Dungeons & Dragons in 1983 (first role-playing game to be translated), Call of Cthulhu in 1984, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons in 1986 and RuneQuest in 1987, and by original products such as its first role-playing game Ultime épreuve (Jeux actuels, 1983), the Légendes series (Jeux Descartes, 1983), Mega (Jeux et Stratégie, 1984), Empire Galactique (Robert Laffont, 1984), or Rêve de Dragon (Nouvelles Éditions Fantastiques, 1985; English translation Rêve: the Dream Ouroboros by Malcontent Games, 2002).

Traveller was translated into Japanese in 1984, quickly followed by Dungeons & Dragons in 1985.

Translations into Spanish of Dungeons & Dragons (Dalmau Carles Pla, 1985), Call of Cthulhu (Joc Internacional, 1988), RuneQuest (Joc Internacional, 1988), Middle-earth Role-Playing (Joc Internacional, 1989) and Traveller (Diseños Orbitales, 1989) were published in Spain during the 1980s. Spanish speaking countries didn't start their own role-playing games production before the 1990s: Aquelarre (Joc Internacional, 1990) and Mutantes en la sombra (Ludotecnia, 1991) were published in Spain and Laberinto saw publication for the first time in Mexico in 1998 (Gráfica Nueva de Occidente).

The fall of communism allowed the hobby to spread even further. A Polish RPG magazine, Magia i Miecz (Magic and Sword), was published in 1993, and soon several Polish role-playing games followed, with other post-communist countries soon joining in.

Mid- to late-1990s: decline in popularity
With advances in home computing, role-playing video games increased in popularity. These games, which use settings and game-mechanics found in role-playing games, do not require a gamemaster or require a player to remain in-character. Although they helped to introduce new gamers to the hobby, the demands of time and money on players were split between the two.

In 1993, Peter Adkison and Richard Garfield, a doctoral candidate in mathematics at the University of Pennsylvania, released a competitive card collecting game with a fantasy setting reminiscent of fantasy role-playing games called Magic: The Gathering. The game was extremely successful and its publisher Wizards of the Coast (WotC) experienced phenomenal growth; A new genre of collectible card games emerged. The sudden appearance and remarkable popularity of Magic took many gamers (and game publishing companies) by surprise, as they tried to keep pace with fads and changes in the public opinion.

In the year afterwards (1994), Bethesda Softworks released the first chapter in their The Elder Scrolls role-playing video game series. The game was Bethesda's attempt to create a true "pen and paper" style experience for personal computers, with the fifth major game, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (2011) being one of the most frequently released games in the history of the industry.

With gamers's time and money split three ways, the role-playing game industry declined. Articles appeared in Dragon Magazine and other industry magazines foretelling the "end of role-playing", since face-to-face time was spent playing Magic. TSR's attempts to become a publishing house further drained their reserves of cash and the financially troubled company was eventually purchased by Wizards of the Coast in 1997. Articles criticising WotC's game in TSR's magazine stopped. WotC became a division of Hasbro in 1998, being bought for an estimated $325 million.

Meanwhile, critical and theoretical reflection on role-playing game theory was developing. In 1994–95 Inter*Active, (later renamed Interactive Fiction) published a magazine devoted to the study of RPGs. In the late 1990s discussion on the nature of RPGs on rec.games.frp.advocacy generated the Threefold Model. The Scandinavian RPG scene saw several opposing ideological camps about the nature and function of RPGs emerge, which began having regular academic conferences called the knutepunkt conferences, which began in 1997 and continue to today.

2000s-: open and indie gaming, Edition Wars and OSR
In 2000, Wizards of the Coast's Dungeons & Dragons brand manager Ryan Dancey introduced a policy whereby other companies could publish D&D-compatible materials under the Open Gaming License (OGL). He was frustrated that game supplements suffered far more diminished sales over time than the core books required to play the game, then this would spread the cost of supplementing the game and would increase sales of the core books, which could only be published by WotC. The new D&D rules became known as the d20 system, and a System Reference Document was published, containing all the rules needed to write a supplement or run a one-off game, but lacking the character advancement rules necessary for long-term play. The open gaming movement and 3rd/3.5 edition D&D (2000, 2003) enjoyed a great deal of success, and although there was some criticism of the move a great many d20 System games have been released until around 2008.

In 2009, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was published by Paizo Publishing, intended for backward compatibility with D&D 3.5 edition ruleset under the OGL. Pathfinder eventually became the top-selling RPG in around 2011 to 2013,   replacing Dungeons & Dragons, which had been the best-selling game since the advent of RPG industry in 1974. In comparison, then-4th-edition D&D (2008) proved to be a lackluster, WotC quickly responded to this and announced next edition of D&D with more emphasis on open playtestings and user feedback. Under such circumstances, "Edition Wars" became a hot topic among user community and internet boards, although some may argue such discussions already and always existed.

Meanwhile, self-defined "Indie role-playing" communities arose on the internet, studying role-playing and developing the GNS Theory of role-playing games. With the advent of print on demand and PDF publishing, it became possible for these individuals to produce games with tightly focused designs, eschewing the mainstream trends of the industry.

Also on this same era, there has been a trend known as the OSR (Old School Renaissance, or Revival). It drew inspiration from the early days of tabletop RPGs, especially from earlier editions of D&D. Castles & Crusades (2004), by Troll Lord Games, is a mix between early editions and OGL d20 rules. This in turn inspired the creation of "D&D retro-clones" such as OSRIC (2006), Labyrinth Lord (2007) and Swords & Wizardry (2008), games which more closely recreate the original rule sets, using the OGL materials and non-copyrightable aspects of the older rules.

title: History of role-playing games


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Talk:Harry Belafonte

Bigamist?
No mention is made as to whether he divorced from his first and/or second wives, or if they left him, or if they died, or whatever. Is he now married to three women? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 21:27, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

 * @74.95.43.249 Yes he was divorced from his first two wives, at considerable expense. See his autobiography My Song. His third wife, Pamela Frank, survives him. 73.17.194.216 (talk) 14:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

never did get to play Roberto Clemente?
On the web, I just saw this, and I recall seeing the idea that Belafonte play Clemente (and was that just after Clemente died in a plane crash?):

" „Sometimes people stop me in the street and ask me eef I am Harry Belafonte. When I say no, they get mad and walk away.“ — Roberto Clemente Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1774378-roberto-clemente-sometimes-people-stop-me-in-the-street-and-ask-me/ " Carlm0404 (talk) 05:05, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Final film role
I’m not sure why this was necessary to become a topic at the talk page, but I guess it needs to be. I find having the statement “final film role” in the filmography table next to BlacKkKlansman entirely superfluous due to the obviousness that it was his last role. If he was still alive and had made a declaration of retirement that’s one thing, but with his passing and him having no new film roles ever again, it goes without saying it’s the final film role and doesn’t need to be noted as such. Had it been posthumous, that’s also another thing but we’d have likely put it as “posthumous release”. I don’t see how it being superfluous is original research. He’s objectively passed away, and it’s objectively his final role. Rusted AutoParts 14:18, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the essence of the question is whether the current statement that BlacKkKlansman was his last film is useful information to retain. The argument against that it is so obvious from there being no newer film in the list that it is not useful to retain the statement combined with the assumption that the list in the article is complete. The argument for retention is that it is useful information to clearly state it without requiring the reader to make that inference and assumption. IMO I see it differently than Rusted AutoParts and think it's the latter. Could some other folks give their thoughts? Sincerely,  North8000 (talk) 16:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It being his final film role is already highlighted in his Film career section, so that piece of information is not being lost, it's just deeply needless in the filmography table. Rusted AutoParts  18:44, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out that it is included elsewhere. So I'm happy to leave it out. North8000 (talk) 19:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I did that. North8000 (talk) 19:29, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't forget about him vs. animal from the muppets!
120.17.187.51 (talk) 09:04, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Heck yeah! There's a whole paragraph about it in the section of the article. DMacks (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: This is America
— Assignment last updated by Llynn2 (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Harry Belafonte


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Nuyorican Productions

Nuyorican Productions, Inc. is an American production company founded by Jennifer Lopez and Benny Medina.

History
Lopez owns the film and television production company Nuyorican Productions, which was launched as early as 2001. It was co-founded with her manager Benny Medina, who was supposed to receive half the producing revenue from the company. Lopez split with Medina shortly after the company was founded. In September 2003, Nuyorican Productions partnered with HBO to create a documentary about Los Quinces, a traditional ball held to celebrate a Cuban girl's 15th birthday. In 2004, her production company was signed with Fox and Regency Television.

Nuyorican Productions produced South Beach, a primetime television drama that aired from January 6 to February 11, 2006 on UPN. The series, which stars Vanessa L. Williams, follows three young adults "trying to get ahead in Miami". The show experienced low ratings and received generally negative reviews from critics. With UPN shutting down and moving its programming to The CW that fall, South Beach was one of many shows that weren't moved over to the new network. Screenwriter Jack Bunick filed a lawsuit in April stating that the plot for South Beach was copied from South Beach Miami, a script he wrote in 1999. Bunick alleged he pitched the idea to UPN, but was never contacted back. The lawsuit named Lopez, UPN, CBS Television and others as defendants. It was dropped in April 2008 by U.S. District Judge Richard Berman, who stated that there's inadequate evidence to take the case to trial.

El Cantante, a film in which Lopez starred alongside then-husband Marc Anthony, was Nuyorican Production's first production. Nuyorican Productions produced the Univisión miniseries Como Ama una Mujer, named after her album of that title. It ran five episodes from October 30 to November 27, 2007, and starred Adriana Cruz. Another show that came from her production company, Brethren which Fox gave script commitment, and it later aired on the channel. In November 2011, it was announced that Nuyorican Productions will produce Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego?, a film adaption of the educational children's game. In 2012, it was announced Lopez is producing a drama series called The Fosters for the cable network Freeform. In 2008, the company signed a deal with Universal Media Studios. In January 2019, Alex Brown was hired as Production Executive, but left the company soonafter. In August 2019, Catherine Hagedorn joined the company as Head of Development before leaving to become Lili Reinhart's producing partner in June 2021.

Most recently, the company signed a multi-year first look deal with Netflix. Natalie Haack Flores was hired as Vice President of Development, with Larry Del Santo being promoted to Head of Unscripted Development and Courtney Baxter to Physical Production Executive.

Logo
The company's logo is a replica of the Empire State Building with a coconut tree near it.

Television specials

 * Jennifer Lopez in Concert (2001)
 * Jennifer Lopez: Dance Again (2014)
 * Neighborhood Sessions: Jennifer Lopez (2015)

Online series

 * Tiger Beat Entertainment (2012)

Album

 * "This Is Me...Now" (2024)

Singles

 * "Booty" (2014)
 * "Olvídame y Pega la Vuelta" (2016)
 * "Chegaste" (2016)
 * "Ni Tú Ni Yo" (2017)
 * "Amor, Amor, Amor" (2017)
 * "El Anillo" (2018)
 * "Medicine" (2019)
 * "In the Morning" (2020)
 * "Cambia el Paso" (2021)
 * "Can't Get Enough" (2024)
 * "Rebound" (2024)

title: Nuyorican Productions


text:
Talk:Montpellier

Sport
The city is home to the association football club Montpellier Hérault SC, currently of Ligue 2 and to the ice hockey club Montpellier Vipers, who have their home stadium at the Patinoire de l'Agglomération de Montpellier at Odysseum.

Industry?
It is a major industrial centre, producing textiles, metal goods, wine, printed materials and chemicals.

That's ludicrous. I've been living in Montpellier for over 11 years now, and I can tell you that it is no "major industrial centre". It is an administrative town, a university town, a hospital town, a tourist town, but not an industrial center. Furthermore, no such claim is made in the French version article about Montpellier. really oh good you have said this because i am doing french project in school at the moment and it is good to know that Mont Pellier dosn't have an "industrial centre" because that would have been a wrong fact to put in i would have lost marks in my project. Thank you

lords...
the entirets of the "main article" of the lords section appreas here. seems to be a waste to have it both places... maybe a smaller list on this page? --Jabencarsey 23:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

there use to be a Montpellier in Vermont...
isn't it? Shame On You 16:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC) ok the lazy yanks spelled it with a single "l" hence Montpelier, Vermont. Shame On You 16:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well done! This is a very beautiful big city! I love it!

Problem with map showing location?
The map of the location doesn't render properly for me (using Firefox 1.5.0.5 under Ubuntu 6.06 LTS)---only the south of England and north of France appears on the main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.44.254 (talk) 07:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I have the same problem 82.139.13.231 (talk) 20:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Using IE, I get the same thing. The problem also exists with Perpignan and a few other French places which use the same map format. Did someone change the generic infobox? --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

History
The History section could really use some work, it mentions that it was tolerant and had Cathars, Jews and Muslims but doesn't mention the Albigensian Crusade or its local impact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 19:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Broken reference link
hey guys, source 2 doesnt work. thanks! --- (message left by 142.31.10.43 in the article itself - transferred here) -- JForget 00:31, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Population
As it is now (29 March 2010) the population section seems contradictory. In fact, on first reading it makes no sense at all. Writers seem to have scrambled metropolitan, regional, and some of views entirely at random. Embarrassing for such sloppy scholarship to be published in Wikipedia. kentfx 08:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kentfx (talk • contribs)
 * Could you please explain what seems contradictory about it? I just looked and didn't see a problem.
 * And as far as "sloppy scholarship", I'm not sure why you're surprised. Wikipedia is not 'scholarship', for the most part it's not written by 'scholars', and it's written in such a way that most articles are inevitably sloppy. And there's not one "publisher" who reviews things, so it's not surprising when poorly written stuff shows up, given that it's written by any old nobody. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

What does this mean?
"Montpellier is one of the few large cities in France without a (Gallo-)Roman background" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.37.162.64 (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

 * This means that Montpellier is a too recent city to have a Roman heritage unlike the town of Nîmes for example :) --Matwi (talk) 10:09, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Timeline of Montpellier
What is missing from the somewhat recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content! Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 12:23, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified (February 2018)
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Montpellier isn't a Mediterranean coastal city
Montpellier isn't bordering the mediterranean sea and does'nt have any port. It isn't a coastal city, unlike Marseille, Nice, Toulon. The port of Sète is the biggest port in the area of Montpellier and isn't even in the same metropolis than Montpellier. Matieu Sokolovic (talk) 09:37, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Etymology of "Montpellier"
The second paragraph in the "History" section is at odds with the first paragraph of the "Geography" section as regards the origin of the name "Montpellier". Wendigo Lake (talk) 12:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Montpellier


text:
Bernard Allison

Bernard Allison (born November 26, 1965) is an American blues guitarist and singer, based in Paris, France.

Biography
Allison was born in Chicago, Illinois, United States. His father, Luther Allison, was a Chicago blues musician. Allison moved back and forth between Illinois and Florida, but remained close to his father's music whether with him or not, listening to his father's albums when they were apart. He accompanied his father to blues festivals in the early 1970s. There he was introduced to Muddy Waters, Hound Dog Taylor and Albert King, amongst others.

Allison taught himself to play in Florida while his father was touring internationally and displayed his early skills to his father when he was 12. His father brought him a Stratocaster guitar but required him to remain in school, although he did allow his son to join him on stage at the age of 18 at the 1983 Chicago Blues Festival. A week after his graduation from high school, he was invited to join Koko Taylor's touring band. During that time, he furthered his skills under the tutelage of Johnny Winter, whom he had met when younger, and Stevie Ray Vaughan whom he met in the first year of his career.

From 1985, he also tried out his headline act, Bernard Allison and Back Talk, largely active in Canada, although he remained with Koko Taylor. He became the bandleader for his father's touring band in Europe late in 1989, and with his father's assistance and the loan of his father's musicians recorded his debut album, The Next Generation, in Paris around Christmas that year. Over the next years, Allison and his father continued to collaborate, with Bernard co-writing and arranging material on his father's final three albums and Luther offering ongoing advice to his son's band.

Allison released three more albums in Europe, Hang On, No Mercy, and Funkifino. In 1997 — the year of his father's death — his critically acclaimed U.S. debut, Keepin' the Blues Alive. was released. The album was followed by a U.S. tour and further releases. Allison's 2002 album Storms of Life charted at nmuber five on the Billboard Top Blues Albums chart. In spite of the success of his tours and albums in the U.S., Allison remains based in Paris.

In 2010, Toby Lee Marshall teamed up with Allison. Marshall was part of Allison's dynamic rhythm section, that toured Europe extensively. Marshall was featured on Allison's 2011 release, Live at the Jazzhaus.

On 16 January 2015, Allison released his thirteenth album, In The Mix.

Discography

 * 1990 – The Next Generation (Teldec Recording Service)
 * 1994 – No Mercy (In-Akustik)
 * 1995 – Funkifino (Ruf Records)
 * 1997 – Born With The Blues (Ruf Records)
 * 1997 – Keepin the Blues Alive (Cannonball Records)
 * 1998 – Times Are Changing (Ruf Records)
 * 2000 – Across the Water (Tone-Cool)
 * 2001 – Hang On (Ruf Records)
 * 2002 – Storms of Life (Tone-Cool)
 * 2003 – Kentucky Fried Blues (live album) (Ruf Records)
 * 2005 – Higher Power (Ruf Records)
 * 2005 – Triple Fret (with Larry McCray, Carl Weathersby and Lucky Peterson) (JSP Records)
 * 2006 – Energized – Live in Europe (CD + DVD) (Ruf Records)
 * 2007 – Chills & Thrills (Jazzhaus Records)
 * 2010 – The Otherside (Jazzhaus Records)
 * 2011 – Live at the Jazzhaus (Jazzhaus Records)
 * 2015 – In The Mix (Jazzhaus Records)
 * 2018 – Let It Go (Ruf Records)
 * 2020 – Songs From The Road (Ruf Records)
 * 2022 – Highs & Lows (Ruf Records)

title: Bernard Allison


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File:ElephantPlatinumLiamWatson.jpg

Summary
Platinum Disc presented to Liam Watson for 600,000 sales in the UK of The White Stripes' Elephant.

title: File:ElephantPlatinumLiamWatson.jpg


text: File:ChicagoIXcover.jpg

title: File:ChicagoIXcover.jpg


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User talk:Andyjay

Howdy and welcome!
Hi Andy Jay, and welcome to Wikipedia! I saw your edit pop up on Clive Malcolm Griffiths and I thought I'd swing by and say hello. Here's the usual boilerplate--a few good links for newcomers:

 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Topical index.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page (below).

Anyway, happy editing, and have a good time! If there's ever anything I can help with (or if you just want to say hey) feel free to swing by my talk page! All the best, --Dvyost 17:18, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
Hello Andyjay! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created  is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the unreferencedBLP tag. Here is the article:

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 10:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Clive Malcolm Griffiths -

Nomination of Clive Malcolm Griffiths for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Clive Malcolm Griffiths is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Clive Malcolm Griffiths until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Skeletor3000 (talk) 22:34, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

title: User talk:Andyjay


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Lady Jane Seymour

Lady Jane Seymour (c.1541 – 19 March 1561) was a writer during the sixteenth century in England, along with her sisters, Lady Margaret Seymour and Anne Seymour, Countess of Warwick. They were the children of Edward Seymour, 1st Duke of Somerset, who from 1547 was the Lord Protector of England after the death of King Henry VIII and during the minority of Jane's first cousin, King Edward VI. She was baptised 22 February 1541, her godmothers were Lady Mary (the King's daughter, at the time declared illegitimate but later to become queen) and Katherine Howard, the fifth wife of Henry VIII, and queen at the time. Some sources say that Thomas Cromwell was her godfather, but this cannot be correct as he had been executed the year before. Jane was thus the niece of Henry VIII's third wife, Queen Jane, whom she was probably named after. She was the sole witness to the secret marriage of her brother Edward to Lady Katherine Grey (a potential heir to Queen Elizabeth I) in 1560. She died a year later, aged 20, probably of tuberculosis.

The Seymour sisters tended to work together, with their most famous work being a collection of 103 Latin distichs, Hecatodistichon, for the tomb of Margaret of Valois, queen of Navarre and also an author, which was published in 1550.

title: Lady Jane Seymour


text:
Talk:Gil Shaham

nationality
Since he was born in the United States, wouldn't it be best to identify him as an "Israeli-American" violinist or something like that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.188.187.132 (talk) 00:19, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Lede
I've removed "award winning" from the lede because it's fairly empty promotional sounding language that doesn't say anything. All people win awards - I've won violin awards, and I'm hardly Gil Shaham. Anyway, it's painfully short now. Can we think of something to say that captures in a sentence or two just what it is about him that's remarkable, noteworthy, relevant? For example, is he known for a particular style, or achievement, or specialization in a particular repertoire? Our audience here is curious laypeople. If someone wanted to know in a sentence or two just who GS is and why they should care, what should we tell them? - Wikidemon (talk) 00:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gil Shaham


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Template talk:Summary of casualties of the Iraq War

with roughly three times as many injured
I don't see support for the "with roughly three times as many injured." in the Lancet study.--Silverback 17:20, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Hm. I thought it did. I'll review. As they say, "DEVELOPING. . ." – Quadell (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks like you're right, Silverback. My mistake. Don't know where the "three times" estimate came from, but if it didn't come from the Lancet study, it can't be better than a guess. – Quadell (talk) 21:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it was a rule of thumb suggested by the body count site. If, so it might be appropropriate to one of the other figures.  If it were a good rule of thumb, it would have been interesting if the Lancet study actually tried to assess injuries, as a sanity check on their mortality figures.  After all, the injured and wounded should still be around and easily verifiable, even if they had healed.--Silverback 06:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

why was the lancet study removed? removing that was rather POV...
Let me quote from Lancet survey of mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq:

 * To date, this is has been the only serious scientific attempt to estimate the excess mortality as a result of the invasion.

If that sentence is false, misleading or POV, the please discuss it on the talk page for Lancet survey of mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Just because gwbush's speechmakers pretend not to understand the difference between iraqbodycount - which only estimates deaths for which e.g. at least 2 or 3 different "reputable" newspapers give consistent reports and sufficient identifying details (place, name, ...), it does not claim to estimate the total, many civilians are certainly killed without ending up with their names in a newspaper - and the Lancet study - which does attempt to estimate the total, but gives a conservative lower limit, is no reason for wikipedians to make the same error. Boud 18:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

injured/wounded/dead
The DOD does NOT count soldiers who were injured in non-hostile incidents among the wounded. They DO count soldiers who die of wounds/injuries among the dead. That's why so many soldiers are listed as dying in the US or Germany. They died of wounds after being evacuated. See www.icasualties.org for more info.

Czolgolz 14:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm reverting the commentary in the template. The US DOES report ALL Iraq fatalities, whether they happen in Iraq, Germany, or the US. They just reported the death of a US soldier in Louisville, Kentucky, from wounds received in September, 2005.

Czolgolz 12:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Australian deaths
Someone keeps putting the one australian death in the chart (actually, there've been two). If we do that, we'll need to list every country who's lost a soldier (Slovakia, for instance, has lost three). Should we do that, or still classify countries that have lost less than ten soldiers under 'other'?

Lancet Study Misquoted
The upper limit of civilian deaths is quoted as 100,000 from the Lancet study. The lancet study did not measure civilian deaths however, it measured all deaths (milirtary and civilian), using a comparison of death rates prior to invasion and post invasion. Iraq body count reviewed the publicly available sources of casulties and classed them by the types of casualties they included. According to the IBC report only IBC and the Iraqi ministry of health have excluded military casualties. Mrdthree 13:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the IBC report only IBC and the Iraqi ministry of health have excluded military casualties. IBC claims that the Lancet tudy is also inaccurate and that a better study is the ILCS/IMIRA. Ignoring the fact that both IMRA/ILCS also includes military deaths, IBC says the most it is underestimating civilian deaths by is 61%.. So, when appropriately compared to ILCS, the worst one could say of IBC is that its count could be low by a factor of two, a far cry from factors of "five or ten". Using this calculus the current lower and upper bonds are from 37813 to ~85000. Mrdthree 14:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I changed the 'Iraqi Civilians' quote to 'Iraqi casualties'-- if the Lancet study is to be used.Mrdthree 14:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I changed it to "Iraqi Deaths" because "casualties" can include injuries. It's talking about deaths, not injuries. So that makes it crystal clear.

 * Also, the Lancet authors do claim that their survey technique will most likely have missed deaths in Saddam's military during the invasion. Though it did not attempt to exclude post invasion Iraqi military forces or "insurgents" or other combatants or fighters. So some might complain about using the term "military" when talking about what Lancet covered besides civilians. You may want to consider using a less specific term like combatant or fighter or something.

Italian deaths
On the CNN, it is said there are only 30 italian deaths so I lowered it from 31 accordingly. -- Cat out 11:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Non coalition civilian deaths
Do we really need to list them all individually? It's kind of making the template look crowded and I'm not sure anyone is updating it. Czolgolz 17:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Creating new estimates
BD2412 asks: "are you asserting that no one died in Iraq after the Lancet report was published? Or since Bush estimate 30,000 dead? Those deaths are very well documented."

No, of course not. But it was clearly stated when those figures were given, which obviously means they can not include deaths past Dec 2005 (Bush) and Sep 2004 (Lancet). I don't believe we should be creating new estimates in this way, by selectively combining certain sources with certain others. These would be selective choices made by you, not by any cited source. And for example, you selectively add 2006 figures from UN to the Bush figure, but why? The UN gives a figure of 50,000 for the whole time-frame. Why are we adding a portion of one to the other to make this new 'frankenstein' estimate which can't be directly cited to anyone but you and these combination choices you made?

Likewise, why are we adding post-Sep-2004 MSNBC figures to Lancet instead of just giving the MSNBC's figure? Or, why aren't we adding MSNBC figures on top of the UNDP study from May 2004 instead of adding them to Lancet from Sep 2004? These are all arbitrary choices made by you. Citing a source and a specific figure with a specific time frame has its own value.

If you wanted to add info from something like the UN report, I think it would be more appropriate to add it after the citable figures from the others, rather than conflating them. Something like this might be appropriate:

30,000-100,000 (The lower figure was given by G. W. Bush in a public speech on December 12, 2005; the higher one comes from the September 2004 Lancet study Lancet survey of mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq.) In July 2006, The United Nations has reported that at least 14,000 deaths occurred in the first half of 2006.

 * If we presume that the 30,000-100,000 number is correct as of September 2004 (which we seem to be doing), it would be folly not to add to that number the very well documented body count from September 2004 through today. It is not conflating the figures at all to say that the U.N. has reported 14,000 dead from January through June of 2006, and the U.S. and Iraqi governments have reported another thousand dead during July of 2006, therefore the actual range must be at least 45,000 dead as of today. Newsweek's figure of 45,017 Iraqi civilians dead as of July 10, 2006 bears this out, so it would be a folly to pretend that there are fewer than 45,000 Iraqi civilian deaths just because the estimates are cobbled together from different sources reporting over different time-frames. But if you want to go with a single source, we can go with Newsweek's number of 45,017 (although even that now leaves out the few hundred, maybe a thousand killed over the past three weeks). bd2412  T 19:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * The 30,000-100,000 is two different sources, given at different time periods. And the presumption of their "correctness" is debatable, and I don't presume it. You have to give the figure and the source given in order to be able to evaluate the sources and their limitations in order to have that debate. The page gives the sources and the citations, and if people want to evaluate their "correctness" they follow the citations and evaluate them on their merits. By your methods of conflating different sources, the only way to evaluate their "correctness" is to go back and disaggregate all the sources you're conflating, and evaluate each on their merits and methods separately, to see which part of your conflated estimate may be right or wrong or have which limitation when..etc.

 * Up until now, the Iraqi deaths category in this box has been giving snapshot estimates with a clearly delineated time frame, for example Lancet up to Sep. 2004. It is stated that this does not cover the whole period. What you're doing now is trying to have a running tally, but studies like the Lancet can't and don't do that. They only give a snapshot of the period they covered. Same with Bush. In order for you to do this you have to continually update the totals, but your sources can not provide updates. You were just trying to add to them selectively from parts of certain other sources. But that doesn't make sense because then you're discarding the other parts of those sources you're using for the updates. IOW, you're just creating your own estimates on the wiki page, by piecing together certain parts of things, and without any clear methodology as to why one source was chosen over another for which part, or why everyone should accept your choices for creating these frankenstein estimates.

 * The only source that does updates like this is Iraq Body Count. And your link for Newsweek is nothing but a re-packaging of the IBC data (See sources on the Newsweek page). However for some reason the Newsweek figure is slightly higher than the IBC figure, and I can't see the reason why explained anywhere. It may be a mistake. All their methods say is that they are posting the IBC figures.

 * If you want constant updates you basically have IBC and that's it. Otherwise you need to give snapshot estimates from various sources for particular time periods, like before. 68.45.226.214 21:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * If we don't update, our information is out of date, therefore incorrect, period.

 * That is nonsense. If the correct date is given for the period covered by the source, then the information is correct, period.

 * The page represents the number to be a record of deaths for the entire war.

 * No, that's what you'd like it to represent, but it never has in the case of Iraqi deaths. It has said exactly the opposite, that it was presenting some differing death estimates that have been published for a specific time period. It had done that for two years. Now all of a sudden you want the page to be a place where you can make up figures that you like for the entire war, when you don't have any source for the figures you're creating. And you're claiming "the page" itself demands this. And that to not do this is to "pretend nobody died" and so forth. That's all nonsense. You want it, and since you don't have a clear source to cite for it, you want to place yourself in charge of making up your own figures. The figure you produce will exist nowhere except on wikipedia, and despite your assurances otherwise will involve lots of editorial choices. There's nothing inherent in the existence of the page which suggests you should do that, and concerns of credibility suggest you should not do that. An encyclopedia would not do that.68.45.226.214 19:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * The whole point of having a wiki is to be able to make articles more accurate on the fly.

 * But you can't just make up estimates of total casualties "on the fly" by piecing together different studies that use all different methods and with different limitations. It's not credible, it requires arbitrary choices and it's confusing.

 * Now, in terms of the low estimate, the Newsweek numbers match up with the Bush estimate for time period X combined with the U.N. estimate for time period Y, and individual DOD and Iraqi gov't reports for period Z, so if each number is independantly reliable, they add up to a reliable whole number.

 * Then if you want a current estimate why cite Bush? And why cite Newseek, because they're only repackaging Iraq Body Count?
 * No, they may each be measuring different things, and by different methods, which each may have different limitations, which was the case with your Lancet/UN frankenstein. And we don't know that each number is independently reliable. That's for people to decide. And some estimates are more certain than others. Different sources use different methods and have different strengths and weaknesses. And people need to be able to evaluate the individual sources to determine how reliable a particular figure is.

 * Please do not cut my sentences in half and address the partial sentence as though this were a complete thought. I have restored the whole sentence and clarified that it is, in fact, a whole sentence.

 * As for the high estimate, the point of a high estimate is to determine what the highest number of war-related deaths could possibly be, as if we are saying, "it can't be more than X". In this case, X could be pretty high. We're not saying, for example, that 350,000 people have died, but that the number of deaths is definitely not higher than 350,000.

 * You might as well pull a number of a hat. And I don't believe the table is saying that. It's trying to give credible estimates. It just happens that there are differing estimates, and it listed two of them. That doesn't mean it should just list whatever highest or lowest possible figure can be cobbled together by wiki editors. It would be entirely unclear that what you're "saying" is that neither of these figures is likely true, but rather lies at the outer edges of credibility (at your proposed higher end, I think far beyond the edges of credibility).

 * According to the outlier number from the Lancet study, the number of Iraqi deaths as of Sept. 2004 was almost certainly not more than 298,000.

 * Not true. A confidence interval for the Falluja-based estimate would extend hundreds of thousands above and below 298,000. There is nothing "certain" about any particular figure in it. I'm not sure of the exact boundaries of a CI for that because none was ever published, because the estimate was never published. And it was not published for a reason. And other studies (such as UNDP) completely contradict it.

 * From that base, we have to figure out the next step, to be able to say "the number of Iraqi deaths from Sept. 2004 to August 2006 is certainly not more than Q", which we will then add to 298,000 to say that the total number of Iraqi deaths since the start of the war is "certainly not more than R". So what is Q? Newsweek says about 24,000 from Sept. 31, 2004 to July 10, 2006, and there have been maybe a thousand Iraqi deaths in the past three weeks. Well, we can't really say "there can certainly not have been more than 323,000 deaths", because it's possible that there have been a few thousand more over the last two years that went unreported, but knowing that the 298,000 is already a stretch, we can still with a straight face say that the highest possible number of deaths is in the realm of 323,000. bd2412  T 21:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * That is all nonsense. Newsweek is just using IBC. When the "298,000" estimate was (not) published, IBC was around 15,000-20,000. So your "highest" estimate up to Sep 2004 was about *20 times* the (Newsweek equivalent) IBC. So this "logic" would suggest the Newsweek 24,000 since then could really be 480,000 (24,000 X 20)! So why not just say 800,000 is the "highest possible" figure and call it a day?

 * You're just making up these estimates of deaths "on the fly" and they have no credibility and are arbitrarily conflated and confusing. Unlike with the coalition deaths, which are all thoroughly accounted for and updated daily, Iraqi deaths simply don't have this kind of specificity, except for in the case of reported deaths from IBC (which is what Newsweek is using). You simply do not have a constantly updated range of "highest possible/lowest possible" figures for these deaths. You have updated figures of reported deaths from IBC, and you have snapshots of specific time periods from various (often differing) estimates.

 * You have limited knowledge, and faithfully presenting the limited knowledge that you do have is much more "correct" than throwing together frankenstein estimates "on the fly" based on your arbitrary interpretations and trying to pretend you have constantly updating "highest and lowest possible" figures. You just don't. 68.45.226.214 02:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We will never know exactly how many people have died in Iraq. All we'll ever know for sure is that, as of August 3, 2006, it was something over 45,000 Iraqis, and that we know because someone has bothered to tally those who were known to be dead. If the U.S. military reports tomorrow that another fifty people were killed in a market bombing, we can do one of two things. We can pretend those deaths didn't happen and do nothing, or we can add fifty to both ends of the range to reflect reality. Yes, the high estimates are arbitrarily conflated, as they always are in war, because they do not represent what we know, but rather the reasonable upper limit of what we don't know. Is it possible that 800,000 people have died in this war? Well, it's not within the realm of anything that has been reported. But there are upper limit numbers that have been reported for different time periods. Whatever upper limit we agree today is a reasonable estimation, if fifty people are killed tomorrow, that number must go up by fifty because at least we know that those fifty were killed. bd2412  T 03:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Yours is a false dichotomy. The lower end (like IBC - in turn MSNBC - maybe UN) figures will increase with reported deaths today and tomorrow because they're based on compiling reports of deaths. I don't think it's appropriate for "we" (ie: you) to determine which is a "reasonable estimation" and then add in other stuff of your choosing to create your own new estimates. There are a couple of differing snap-shot estimates which covered only a particular period and they should be presented as they were published, cited to those sources, and with the appropriate time frame given for what they actually did cover. Then readers may decide what is a "reasonable estimation", and what should or should not be assumed on top of them beyond their time frame. I thought wiki was supposed to be an encyclopedia. The editors of encyclopedias don't make up their own estimates for wars based on what snippets of data from various sources they feel are "reasonable" to conflate. They cite various sources who have produced estimates and faithfully list what they said.68.45.226.214 03:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Right now we are reporting an upper estimate of 100,000 deaths that is two years old. That figure may have been a high guess for the people who were making it, but they were scientists making an educated and informed guess based on the best information available. However, if the estimate of 100,000 was a fair upper estimate nearly two years ago, it makes no sense to pretend that no additional deaths have occurred since that time, particularly when we see it reported by our own government in the news every day, and have estimates from other reliable sources such as the United Nations. Do you truly believe that all of these sources having arrived at similar figures are wrong, and that no Iraqis died in all of 2005 and all of 2006? bd2412  T 03:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Nobody is "pretending" deaths didn't happen in 2006, or in 2005. That claim is absurd. The correct timeline for the previous figures was given, and both indicated that they did not include 2006, and one (Lancet) indicated that it did not include 2005 or 2006. Your assumption first of all that "we" should be giving what "we" believe is the true figure up to today is dubious and non-encyclopedic, and requires that subjective new estimates be concocted by wiki editors. Your further assertion that the table is or should be giving a total range of plausible estimates up to today from lowest to highest is also arguable. The table, imv, was giving two notable estimates from two prominent sources, and citing the appropriate time frame for those sources. I think they were cited for their prominence and notability, not because they were the "lowest" and "highest" possible figures. The Lancet one has been out of date for two years, but everybody knows this. It's clearly stated in the table. Anything source you use will become out of date (except for your Newsweek thing because it's just repeating IBC, which constantly updates)

 * But now that you've removed the Bush thing the footnotes are all screwy, because the Bush quote is gone, but the footnote for it is still there. And this gets to another point. Giving these figures as they were given by their source is important because they are notable landmarks, and in the case of Bush, that was notable due to it being Bush giving the figure.

 * My own view is that the Bush thing should remain (cited as coming from Dec 2005) because it's a notable landmark, and the Lancet 100,000 should remain (cited as coming from Sep 2004), and if need be, a third source should be cited for your 15,000 in 2006. But that will eventually be out of date too. There's nothing wrong and no "pretending" involved by giving notable landmark figures for specific indicated time-frames. I think that's actually a better way to run a table like this that is used on different pages. Otherwise it will be constantly changing with arbitrary and debatable edits and revisions whenever someone decides they want to add new deaths to the new frankenstein estimate. How do you decide which should be added when? What do you do two weeks from now? It will be always going up and down and back again when any editor disagrees with something, and who's going to consider such an irratic table a reliable source for anything? At least with something like "Lancet estimated 100,000 in Sep 04" you know exactly where the figure is coming from, what period it covers and you can evaluate it on its own merits.68.45.226.214 04:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * That would make sense if the name of this template were not "Summary of casualties of the 2003 invasion of Iraq" - which suggests that it is actually going to summarize the casualties of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, rather then provide the number of casualties as of some landmark date. We are not coming up with new figures out of thin air, we are doing math - easy math, in fact, mere addition. If the U.S. government reports tomorrow that 50 people were killed, how would it be arbitrary to add that number to the estimated number of casualties?

 * Because then an Iraqi hospital reported a different number. And so did someone else. And so did someone else. Why should we (wiki editors) add 50 and not all the others? Maybe 50 different incidents will be reported tomorrow, maybe many of them with their own range of differing figures. Do any of them overlap with the 50 reported by the USG? How are all these things handled? Those editorial choices would be what is actually producing this new estimate. And all these choices would be arbitrary and unclarified according to any stated methodology or criteria, and citeable to nobody but you.

 * Your proposal would be no different then freezing the U.S. death toll at some arbitrary "milestone", like the day we declared "Mission Accomplished", and leaving the template with the appearance that some 200 U.S. troops died instead of 2000. Why push towards keeping numbers we know to be inaccurate? We can do math. bd2412  T 04:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * No, it would be nothing at all like that. We have an official source for those figures that compiles them one by one and that regularly updates that total. All that is required of us is citing that source and the figure it gives. Your proposal requires a wiki editor to make editorial choices about what the figure should be, and then publish whichever combination of figures he believes results in a "correct" or "reasonable" estimate. These proposals are completely different.68.45.226.214 05:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * There is no editorial choice involved whatsoever. If there are three different sources, and one is reporting 35 deaths in an attack, and one is reporting 40, and one is reporting 45, we don't pick the figure we prefer. We acknowledge that there are three sources that agree that at least 35 people were killed, and at most 45 people were killed. Whatever the lowest number is goes to the minimum count; whatever the highest number is, goes to the maximum count. What we do not do is look at those three numbers and say that because they do not match, no one was killed. bd2412  T 12:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think you have any clue what's involved in creating estimates like this, and there are actually citeable sources that already do things like you're saying, and according to declared and citeable methodologies, rather than according to glib assurances and oversimplified assumptions. And I don't agree that it's the job of "we" to create estimates rather than cite sources who do. That's not encyclopedic. "bd2412" is not a credible or notable source for casualty totals in Iraq. And what you're saying is completely stupid. Nobody was saying "no one was killed". I think there should be some kind of consensus about this before "we" can just jump on to this table and turn it into something where "we" just make up our own estimates.68.45.226.214 18:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * And you already have problems with what you've put on the table now. The 45,017 figure does not correlate with 30,000 from Bush and 14,000 from the UN. There's another "1,017" there somehow, and it's not clear where that figure comes from, or what it "correlates" with. And furthermore, using the figure of "45,017" as your "lowest number" is an editorial choice. The IBC figure is 39,702-44,191. So why have you not put "39,702" as the "lowest number"? If you tallied up the civilian figures at icasualties.org they would be lower still. So why did you make the editorial choice to go with 45,017 as the "lowest number"? Producing your "highest number" would be even more hairy, and require still more editorial choices, as already discussed. For example, I notice on another page you've been creating estimates on, "List of wars and disasters by death toll", about 100,000 Iraqis have suddenly come back to life.68.45.226.214 19:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The Newsweek number correlates in the sense that it is close enough to show that the combined estimates of Bush and the UN are in the ballpark - note that Bush's comment was made on December 12, and the UN report covers from January to June - there were additional deaths in the last three weeks of December, and I had previously noted in the template that over a thousand additional deaths were reported in July. As to your second point, that the IBC figure should stand as the minimum, this mischaracterizes the IBC report. IBC does not purport to reflect the actual number of deaths, but is only a count of those that were reported in media outlets. You have noted above that although Newsweek purports to have based its numbers on IBC, Newsweek's numbers are higher. This shows that Newsweek has captured some information that is not within the category of information that IBC reports.

With respect to the change in the count at List of wars and disasters by death toll, yes, I made this revision to correct an error on my part - I had counted the highest reported estimate from the Lancet study without observing that the study itself had discounted the underlying data as an outlier. This drew the highest statistically reliable number down to 194,000 (which is within the 95% confidence interval of the Lancet study). bd2412 T 20:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Your reply here is completely incoherent and illogical. If it only "correlates in a sense" then the origin of your "45,017" figure is not really known. Second, if IBC should be discarded, then so should Newsweek because the only thing it says it's doing is repeating IBC. You say that since its number is for some (unknown) reason higher, then it's "captured more information" somehow. This is bogus for two reasons. First, that's one of those "editorial choices" you're making, and it contradicts what you've earlier said. You said that you would accept - without any editorial choice - the lowest and highest numbers for your new "min and max" ranges, but here you reject a lower figure for a higher one - in the "min" category, saying that higher one shows it "captured some information" not in the other, but which is new "information" of entirely undeclared origin and unknown accuracy. Then you've also refuted your previous claims about uncritically taking the lowest and highest numbers out there without any editorial choice. If one report says 35 died but another says 40, why should 35 go in the min? The one saying 40 has obviously "captured some information" not in the other, or has it? All contradictory, and exactly why what you're doing here is not credible or appropriate.

 * Second, Newsweek does not purport to "reflect" what you call "the actual number of deaths" any more than IBC. It purports to be citing IBC and thereby giving a "count of those that were reported in media outlets". Even if it somehow managed to have "captured some information" a little above, and without indicating where that "information" came from or how they processed it, the tiny disparity between Newsweek and IBC could hardly be grounds for claiming that Newsweek "reflects the actual number of deaths" while IBC does not. This is all contradictory editorial choices made by you. Similarly, the UN also only purports to be giving the numbers that have been reported by hospitals and morgues, not what you're selectively calling "the actual number of deaths" when it comes to you choosing to selectively exclude IBC. Or is the UN sum of hospital and morgue deaths somehow an "estimate" while IBC is "not an estimate"? Makes no sense.

 * As far as I can tell, when you refer to "the actual number of deaths", what you mean is the complete number of all deaths. But the only sources that could claim to give this is either a complete on-the-ground census of the entire Iraqi population (which we don't have) or snapshot statistical estimates that only cover a particular time-period (and which you aren't satisfied with because they don't cover the entire war). That leaves you only with sources that provide a "count of those that were reported" either in media (IBC, Newsweek) or by hospitals and morgues (UN). Thus your grounds for discarding IBC must also discard Newsweek and UN, and everything except the few snapshot estimates out there which don't cover the whole period.

 * Lastly, your other death toll on the "List" page reveals still more editorializing in concocting these numbers, and still more contradictions. Putting aside the editorial choice to accept or discard the Falluja data in Lancet, you are now using the upper range of the Lancet CI for your editorially selected "highest" figure. But by this logic, the "8,000" at the low end of the CI should be your "lowest" figure to September 2004. Yet you reject it there. Tell me again about "no editorial choices" and "just math".68.45.226.214 20:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I do not know your educational background, but I earned a Masters Degree in the statistics-heavy field of Comparative Sociology, which provides me with the training needed to sensibly interpret the Lancet study. As to your suggestion that the 8,000 figure from the Lancet study should be used as the lowest figure, this simply defies common sense. Suppose I were to show you a ten dollar bill, and then put that ten dollar bill in my pocket. Suppose I were then to tell you that the amount of money in my pocket is between two dollars and twenty-five dollars. If I were then to ask you what is the minimum amount of money you think I have in my pocket, it would be insane for you to say that you think I have two dollars, or five dollars, or nine dollars because you know for a fact that the amount of money in my pocket is at least ten dollars. IBC counts the bodies of over 20,000 Iraqis who were killed by September of 2004. Here, I'm showing you 20,000 dead Iraqis, and putting them in my pocket. Now I'm telling you that there are between 8,000 and 194,000 dead Iraqis in my pocket. What is the minimum number of dead Iraqis in my pocket? bd2412  T 21:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree the CI range is not credible. But you're missing my point. If the low-end of the CI range is not credible, why should you take the high-end range of the same CI as credible? And if we're going to evaluate the CI ranges based on other evidence, why are we not applying other evidence to evaluate the credibility of the high-end CI range? I think there's evidence out there to suggest the high-end range is also not credible (for example the UNDP study from May 2004, cited here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_in_the_conflict_in_Iraq).

 * But that's the point. In order to do what you want to do you have to start making all kinds of judgments about the crediblity of various figures and sources, and which to accept or discard. You're not just taking whatever is the lowest and highest figures out there and doing simple math. You're creating new estimates based on a set of your own subjective judgments about the credibility of various figures.

 * The credibility of the low estimate of the Lancet CI range is not a subjective judgment, it is an objective judgment - the number of actual bodies counted exceeds the amount cited. Although it is a mathematically reasonable range, it clashes with demonstrable facts. The high end of the study is equally credible, but it does not clash with any demonstrable facts. If the high end of the range exceeded the actual number of Iraqis, then such a clash would be present. Like the ten dollars (or 20,000 dead Iraqis) in my pocket, the data itself excludes the lower end of the range, but fails to exclude the upper end. bd2412  T 22:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I understand your point about the lower CI range being superceded by other info, but still if we know the outer edge of the CI at the low end is not credible, it's a bit difficult to assume that the outer edge at the other end is credible at the same time. It was already known anyway that the extreme edges of the CI were at extremely low probability anyway, as compared with areas closer to the middle.

 * BTW..i just looked at the Newsweek page today, which you had previously used (at just over 45,000 before), and now their total to date is 42,500, which now looks like it follows their stated methodology of using an average of the IBC min/max figures which are now around 40,000min-45,000max. So apparently about 3,000 have come back to life in the last week according to the Newsweek page, or there was some unexplained mistake or something. If you can figure out how that happened let me know. I don't see anything about it on the page.68.45.226.214 01:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Template format changes
The template format changes made by Rnt20 on December 4, 2006 caused some unintended serious problems. When you make such changes in the template please go to some of the pages the template is on in order to see how the template looks in a regular wikipedia page. For example; Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003.

If the changes cause problems, then revert the template page back to what it was until you figure out the problem. I know the reference format is different for templates. Compared to references on regular wikipedia pages. But it was working before. I did not create the format. But as the saying goes "if it aint broke, don't fix it". :)

And feel free to add notes to the Bush links. Just please use the existing reference format. --Timeshifter 21:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I went ahead and added the actual December 2005 Bush quote on 30,000 Iraqi dead. Also this:

 * CNN writes: "White House spokesman Scott McClellan later said Bush was basing his statement on media reports, 'not an official government estimate.' " --Timeshifter 21:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

IBC. Civilian deaths due to insurgent/military action and increased criminal violence.
From the Iraq Body Count project page:

The IBC overview page states: "This is an ongoing human security project which maintains and updates the world’s only independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq that have resulted from the 2003 military intervention by the USA and its allies. The count includes civilian deaths caused by coalition military action and by military or paramilitary responses to the coalition presence (e.g. insurgent and terrorist attacks). It also includes excess civilian deaths caused by criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed the coalition invasion." [1]
 * [1] = http://www.iraqbodycount.org/background.php --Timeshifter 21:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Removing POV caveats and qualifiers
The IBC was described *twice* in this short chart as being "English language media". This is misleading, particularly for short blurb, because people do not generally know what is or is not available in English. Most will probably assume this means news sources in the USA and the UK. But IBC uses lots of international and Arabic sources. The IBC seems to have had a debate with some critics about what significance this might have for their count. The IBC believes little or none because they say most major Arabic sources publish in English and many others are translated by various services which they use. Using the "English language media IBC" formulation seems to clearly take a POV side in this debate, that this "English" thing is some crucial caveat for their count, and tends to imply to readers that IBC doesn't use Arabic reports, but they clearly do. Without a thorough explanation of what this might mean, its inclusion in this short description is misleading and POV. It's inclusion *twice* in the same little section suggests that a previous editor has gone a bit overboard in POV-pushing.Seigfried4220 04:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You deleted sourced material added by several editors. I returned it. I removed one of the English-language media comments. I clarified it by adding "(including Arabic media translated into English)". --Timeshifter 05:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You're a liar. I deleted only what I said above. I reworded a couple things and deleted no sourced material. I deleted *your* POV-pushing caveats and *your* opinionated assertion about what the differences reflect. That's all I deleted, as anyone can see by looking at the history.Seigfried4220 05:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

If you keep up the personal attacks and insults I will be reporting you to the incident board for it. See my user page for links to the relevant wikipedia policies and incident boards. User:Timeshifter

Here below is what I added to Benwing's talk page. User talk:Benwing

Seigfried4220 (74.73.39.219) deleted your material from template.

Hi Benwing. You added some good info to this template: Template:Summary of casualties of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. See this revision difference.

Seigfried4220 (74.73.39.219) just deleted some of it with this edit summary: "deleted opinionated assertion about what the differences reflect". Here is the revision difference.

The sentence he deleted was this one: "The differences reflect differing methodologies as well as differing definitions of the types of death counted."

I like that sentence which is why I left it in when you first put it in. It is a good, simple, NPOV, and necessary introduction to complex casualty stats. I have deleted other info of yours, so I am not kissing your butt. Just pointing out how Seigfried4220 operates. --Timeshifter 06:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Seigfried4220 and 4 previous anonymous IP addresses
Seigfried4220 (same person as 74.73.39.219) is currently on a binge inserting POV, and/or deleting sourced info, on several Iraq War casualty pages.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Seigfried4220

 * Pot, kettle, black. Take a look at Timeshifter's contribs if you want to see a 'binge' of POV edits and deletions of sourced info. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Seigfried4220 (talk • contribs) 05:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

BTW..I consider this irrelevant little form letter about IP addresses that you're circulating everywhere to be nothing more than a deceitful smear campaign (to go along with your POV-pushing campaign to pimp the Lancet study). And you wonder why I've questioned your integrity.Seigfried4220 05:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Your continued personal attacks may be reported to the incident board for it. See my user page for links to the wikipedia policies and boards concerning personal attacks, etc.. I operate openly. Not behind multiple anonymous IP addresses so that I can come back and create more problems by deleting the same sourced info without being noticed as much. --Timeshifter 06:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

---

IP contribution lists with beginning and end dates:

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/72.68.212.175 - 14:41, 6 November 2006 to 02:36, 10 November 2006
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/71.246.104.28 - 10:12, 10 November 2006 to 10:47, 16 November 2006

The 71.246.104.28 account linked just above made frequent use of the word "Truthshifter" in comments on this talk page:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Iraq_Body_Count_project

The 74.64.60.148 account linked below made this comment below using the word "Truthshifter." Thus helping to tie all 4 IP address accounts to the same person.

"The first paragraph above is relevant to IBC, but is misrepresented by Jamail and now worse by Truthshifter as a 'criticism' of IBC, while it's not at all like those of Jamail and the others."

Here is the revision difference link below showing the addition of the above statement to the talk page for the Iraq Body Count project.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIraq_Body_Count_project&diff=99503805&oldid=99450302

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/74.64.60.148 - 11:13, 21 November 2006 to 05:52, 9 January 2007.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/74.73.39.219 - 06:19, 9 January 2007 to Jan. 25, 2007.

---

"PS. I'm also going to use an account. I will be Seigfried.74.73.39.219 00:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)"

Here is the revision difference link below showing the addition of the above statement to the talk page for the Lancet study:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALancet_surveys_of_mortality_before_and_after_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq&diff=103034617&oldid=103031997

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Seigfried4220 - 14:33, 19 January 2007 to ...

Article pages where many attempts at deletion of sourced info by this person has occurred:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_mortality_before_and_after_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project

--- --Timeshifter 05:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


text:
User:81.154.91.73

I am a notorious, anonymous sock puppet.

I post from the following ISPs:
 * User:217.43.172.38
 * User:217.43.196.187
 * User:217.43.197.44
 * User:217.43.198.7
 * User:81.153.145.102
 * User:81.153.150.86
 * User:81.154.89.216
 * User:81.154.91.48
 * User:81.154.91.73

See User:217.43.172.38 for a complete list of the ISPs I use.

title: User:81.154.91.73


text: User talk:195.131.172.165

title: User talk:195.131.172.165


text:
User talk:Stippy

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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Source
Please provide the source of your contributions. mikka (t) 17:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Stippy