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Sakıp Sabancı Museum

The Sabancı University Sakıp Sabancı Museum (Sakıp Sabancı Müzesi) is a private fine arts museum in Istanbul, Turkey, dedicated to calligraphic art, religious and state documents, as well as paintings of the Ottoman era. The museum was founded by Sakıp Sabancı, and was opened in June 2002. Aside from permanent exhibitions, the museum also hosts national and foreign temporary exhibitions and, hosts cultural events on the weekends.

Recently the museum gained worldwide attention when it exhibited the works of Pablo Picasso and Auguste Rodin.

History of the mansion
The historical building belonged to several high ranked pasha families and khedives, Egyptian governors, from 1848 until 1884, when it was purchased by the Ottoman Treasury on the orders of Sultan Abdülhamid II and presented as a gift to King Nicola I of Montenegro. The mansion served the next 30 years as a royal residence and embassy of Montenegro. In 1913, the Ottoman government repossessed it, which became home to the granddaughter of Sultan Mehmed V Reşad. After the foundation of the Turkish Republic, Prince Mehmed Ali Hasan, grandson of Khedive İsmail Paşa, purchased the then derelict house and commissioned the architect Edouard de Nari to build the present house. However, it remained unused for many years until the elder sister of the Egyptian prince made it her home in 1944.

In 1951 Hacı Ömer Sabancı, father of Sakıp Sabancı and founder of Sabancı Holding, purchased the mansion for spending summer months with his family. Inside the entrance gate of his mansion, he placed the bronze statue of a horse, he purchased at an auction. The sculpture was designed by Louis-Joseph Daumas in Paris in 1864 and cast by Vor Thiebaut. The house became popularly known as Atlı Köşk (Equestrian Villa). He and his family lived in the mansion until his decease in 1966. The mansion was home to Sakıp Sabancı and family between 1969 and 1999.

The mansion was leased in 1998 for a period of 49 years to Sabancı University along with all the antique furnishings and art collections. Today, the original mansion and a modern gallery annex host extensive art collections of 19th and 20th century.

Collection
Hacı Ömer Sabancı began collecting decorative art works consisting of figurines, metalwork, porcelain, objets d'art and furniture in 1940. Sakıp Sabancı expanded the art collection of his father since 1970. The collection includes 18th and 19th century Chinese porcelain Famille noire and Famille verte, polychrome vases and decorated plates. An impressive collection of 19th century French porcelain, including large numbers of Sèvres vases, and German porcelain produced in Berlin and Vienna are among the most valuable items in the collection.

The collection of calligraphy consisting of nearly 400 pieces offers a comprehensive view of Ottoman calligraphic art over a period of 500 years, with manuscript Korans and prayer books, calligraphic panels, decrees, imperial documents, declarations, imperial seals, poetry books and calligraphic tools.

More than 320 selected paintings of Ottoman and Republican era belonging to Sabancı painting collection are on display, the works of notable Ottoman and Turkish artists like Osman Hamdi Bey, İbrahim Çallı, Halil Paşa, Nazmi Ziya Güran, Şeker Ahmet Paşa, Fikret Mualla and European artists like Fausto Zonaro and Ivan Ayvazovsky who lived and worked in the Ottoman Empire, either independently or as court pai

Items memorizing Sakıp Sabancı as pictures taken with personalities and statespersons, decorations and medals and some personal belongings are also on show.

Temporary exhibitions
Temporary exhibitions that have taken place in and have left from the museum are listed below in chronological order:

 * (27.06.2003 - 05.05.2004) Partnership of Power: Artifacts from the Istanbul Archaeology Museum, Man and Horse
 * (21.12.2003 - 18.04.2004) From the Medicis to the Savoias: Ottoman Splendour in Florentine Collections
 * (12.05.2004 - 24.10.2004) Paris - St. Petersburg: Three Centuries of European Fashion from the Alexandre Vassiliev Collection
 * (24.05.2005 - 28.08.2005) Pieces gathered together from Topkapı Palace Museum's collection of European Porcelain at the Ottoman Palace
 * (13.07.2005 - 09.10.2005) Pieces gathered together from the collections of Austrian, English, Slovenian, Croatian and Turkish museums called The Image of Turks in Europe in the 17th Century.
 * (24.11.2005 - 26.03.2006) Picasso in Istanbul
 * (14.04.2006 - 28.05.2006) The Art of the Book from East to West and Memories of the Ottoman World: Masterpieces from the Calouste Gulbenkian Museum in Lisbon
 * (13.06.2006 - 03.09.2006) Master Sculptor Rodin in Istanbul
 * (07.12.2006 - 08.04.2007) Genghis Khan and His Heirs: The Great Mongol Empire
 * (19.04.2007 - 19.08.2007) In Praise of God: Anatolian Rugs in Transylvanian Churches, 1500–1750, and Kaitag Embroideries and Textile Art from the Daghestan
 * (08.09.2007 - 01.11.2007) Blind Date, Istanbul
 * (24.11.2007 - 27.01.2008) The World of Abidin Dino
 * (11.12.2007 - 02.03.2008) Lines in Gold Ottoman Calligraphy from the Sakıp Sabancı Museum, Istanbul, in Real Academia de Bellas Artes de San Fernando, Madrid
 * (18.02.2008 - 01.06.2008) Istanbul, Isfahan and Delhi: Three Capitals of Islamic Masterpieces from the Louvre Collection
 * (04.04.2008 - 15.06.2008) Ottoman Calligraphy from the Sakıp Sabancı Museum in Real Alcázar, Sevilla
 * (20.09.2008 - 01.02.2009) Salvador Dalí: A Surrealist in Istanbul
 * (16.04.2009 - 30.06.2009) Travel to the West: 70 Years of Turkish Painting
 * (14.05.2009 - 02.08.2009) Lisbon: Memories from Another City
 * (10.08.2009 - 20.08.2009) Flow
 * (09.09.2009 - 01.11.2009) Joseph Beuys and His Students: Works From the Deutsche Bank Collection
 * (19.11.2009 - 20.03.2010) Venice and Istanbul during the Ottoman Period: Love by any other name
 * (15.04.2010 - 27.06.2010) Transcending Borders With Brush and Pen: Selected Works of Eastern and Western Calligraphy
 * (05.06.2010 - 26.09.2010) Legendary Istanbul: From Byzantion to Istanbul, 8000 Years of a Capital
 * (05.11.2010 - 13.03.2011) Treasures of the Aga Khan Museum
 * (11.11.2010 - 09.01.2011) "The Jameel Prize 2009" exhibition of the Victoria and Albert Museum
 * (23.05.2011 - 30.10.2011) Across: The Cyclades and Western Anatolia During the 3rd Millennium BC
 * (17.09.2011 - 31.12.2011) SSM hosts Sophie Calle with "For the Last and First Time"
 * (22.02.2012 - 10.06.2012) "Where Darkness Meets Light..." Rembrandt and His Contemporaries: The Golden Age of Dutch Art
 * (30 May - 22 September 2013) Fan from Past to Present
 * (29 June 2012 - 16 September 2012)CoBrA- 1000 Days of Free Art
 * (9 October 2012 - 6 January 2013) Monet's Garden
 * (25 April - 11 August 2013) 1001 Faces of Orientalism
 * (10 September 2013 - 2 February 2014) Anish Kapoor in Istanbul
 * (19 January - 13 April 2014) Masterpieces from the SSM Collections in Bahrain ‘Five Hundred Years of Islamic Calligraphy’
 * (7 March - 15 June 2014) Distant Neighbour Close Memories: 600th Anniversary of Turkish - Polish Relations
 * (29 April - 10 August 2014) "THE PORTRAIT OF SAKIP SABANCI" – Kutluğ Ataman
 * (23 September 2014 - 8 March 2015)Joan Miró. Women, Birds, Stars
 * (9 April 2015 – 26 July 2015) "Buluşma…Reunion"

Picasso in Istanbul
"Picasso in Istanbul" was the first ever temporary exhibition featuring a collection of 135 unexhibited pieces by Pablo Picasso. There were 20 paintings selected by the artist's grandson, Bernard Ruiz-Picasso, from different periods that Picasso kept for himself and were part of the Picasso family's private collection. Other pieces came from the Picasso museums in Barcelona, Málaga in Spain and Paris, France. The show also featured sculptures, ceramics and textiles, as well as photographs taken by Picasso and photographs of the artist taken by famous photographers. The show, held from November 24, 2005, until March 26, 2006, was visited by more than 250.000 people.

Master Sculptor Rodin in Istanbul
The second notable temporary exhibition at the museum was dedicated to Auguste Rodin with the title "The Master Sculptor Rodin in İstanbul", featuring selected artworks by the great master of the art of sculpture. 203 artpieces were on display from June 13, 2006, to September 3, 2006, which were loaned from the Musée Rodin in Paris, France. The show hosted Rodin's masterworks as The Thinker, The Kiss, The Burghers of Calais, The Monument to Balzac, The Walking Man, statues derived from the famous The Gates of Hell composition and nearly a hundred other sculptures in marble, bronze and plaster as well as 58 drawings, 23 archival photographs and 19 antique-style statues from Rodin's private collection. With the permission of Rodin Museum, visually impaired people were able to touch 14 statues having labels with the Braille alphabet. The bronze horse statue in the front garten of the museum, which gave the mansion its name since 1952, made temporarily place to Rodin's The Monument to Victor Hugo on the occasion of the exhibition.

Genghis Khan and His Heirs, The Great Mongol Empire
The museum's third major temporary exhibition, which was held between December 7, 2006, and April 8, 2007, was dedicated to Genghis Khan in conjunction with the 800th anniversary of the founding of the Mongol Empire. Titled "Genghis Khan and His Heirs, The Great Mongol Empire", it showed 600 pieces from major museums in Germany, Austria, Mongolia and Turkey, some of which were seen by the public for the first time.

The World of Abidin Dino
Between November 24, 2007, through January 27, 2008, the museum hosted works and documents of the renowned Turkish painter Abidin Dino, a multi-faceted artist and man of culture, who died in 1993. The comprehensive exhibition comprised his drawings and writings along with photographs and documents chronicling the various periods throughout his 80 years in Turkey, France and other countries.

Istanbul, Isfahan, Delhi Three Capitals of Islamic Art Masterpieces from the Louvre Collection
From February 19 through June 1, 2008, the museum exhibited around 220 objects from the Islamic Arts department of the Louvre Museum in Paris, France. The selected works are representative for the common and different art directions in the cultural reflections of historical relations between the Ottomans (1299–1923), the Safavid dynasty (1501–1722) in Iran and the Baburid dynasty (1526–1858) in the Indian subcontinent that all shared the cultural heritage of the Timurid dynasty (1396–1510), who ruled once on the broad Iranian plateau.

Legendary Istanbul - From Byzantion to Istanbul: 8000 Years of A Capital
To celebrate the selection of Istanbul as the European Capital of Culture for 2010, SSM is hosting an exhibition entitled "From Byzantion to Istanbul: 8000 Years of A Capital". The exhibition, which is on display from June 5 to September 4, 2010, presents the peerless history of Istanbul from its founding until today with over 500 works, some of which are the discoveries from the Yenikapı excavation conducted as part of the Marmaray Project, which goes back 8000 years.

Treasures of the Aga Khan Museum
From November 5, 2010, to March 13, 2011, the Aga Khan Museum collection visited the Sakip Sabanci Museum in Istanbul, Turkey. Entitled Treasures of Aga Khan Museum, the exhibition was held within the framework of Istanbul 2010 - European Capital of Culture. For the first time since Parma in 2007, the artefacts on display were not a general presentation of "highlights" from the collection, but it was an exhibition that brought together examples of the written word on a variety of objects (ceramics, wood, metalwork, textiles, etc.) with their counterparts on parchment and paper. The exhibition aimed to show how the art of the book - in calligraphy, illumination and illustration - evolved over time in the Islamic world.

Across - The Cyclades and Western Anatolia During the 3rd Millennium BC
The exhibition, entitled "Across - The Cyclades and Western Anatolia During the 3rd Millennium BC" was composed of artifacts from various Turkish museums as well as the National Archaeological Museum of Athens and the N. P. Goulandris Foundation Museum of Cycladic Art. The exhibition examined the relations between Anatolia, where the first steps towards civilization took place, and the nearby Cyclades Islands in the Aegean that gave rise to reciprocal influence that created two cultures which while similar in many respects, nonetheless maintained distinctive regional characteristics.

Sophie Calle: "For the Last and First Time"
In the exhibition, the artist examined from her unique perspective with both the last "visions" of people who are visually handicapped and the "inhabitants of Istanbul who have never seen the sea", a topic that has attracted the interest of many in the worlds of academia and art.

Where Darkness Meets Light… Rembrandt and His Contemporaries - The Golden Age of Dutch Art
The exhibition marks the 400th year of diplomatic relations between Turkey and the Netherlands and features works from the Rijksmuseum as well as one of the world's leading private collections, which are being displayed for the first time in Turkey. Besides Rembrandt, the exhibition presented a total number of 110 works; 73 paintings, 19 drawings and 18 objects by 59 artists including major representatives of Dutch art. Additionally, the exhibition presented the painting "The Love Letter" by Johannes Vermeer, who remained an obscure figure for centuries with his works being attributed to other artists for a long time.

Cobra - 1000 Days of Free Art
The exhibition boasted a wide selection of the most prominent works of the Cobra movement that shaped the art environment of the second half of the twentieth century, featuring over 60 artworks by Cobra artists.

Monet's Garden
The exhibition consisted of works from the late period of the artist who gave the impressionist movement its name; including pictures of Claude Monet’s house in the Giverny Garden, garden scenes, water lilies and his famous Japanese bridge paintings. In addition signed portraits of Monet and his wife Camille by Auguste Renoir, personal possessions and photographs will be exhibited. The exhibition gave insight into Monet's innovative approaches during an artistic career that stretched into the first quarter of the 20th century, and his rejection of tradition that inspired young artists in the 1940s and 50s.

The 1001 Faces of Orientalism
The exhibition, studied the 19th century Orientalism analysing its effects on diversified areas such as literature, archaeology, painting, architecture, universal exhibitions, photography and fashion. Rare books, photographs from the archaeological excavation sites, examples of Ottoman architecture, interior and stage decorations, costumes, studio photographs and souvenirs were presented in the "1001 Faces of Orientalism" exhibition.

Fan From Past to Present
The exhibition presented to art lovers the private collection of Nurcan Artam, Artam Antik INC. CEO., of around 120 rare fans dating back to between 1720 and 1900 as well as oil paintings that reflect the importance of fans as one of the most interesting accessories in the history of clothing.

Anish Kapoor in İstanbul
The exhibition, which was curated by Sir Norman Rosenthal, was the first to focus on Anish Kapoor's stone sculptures in marble, alabaster and other materials, many of which had not been seen in public before. The exhibition also included iconic works such as Sky Mirror and Yellow, bringing together sculpture, architecture, engineering and technology.

Distant Neighbour Close Memories: 600th Anniversary of Turkish - Polish Relations
The exhibition covered a period beginning in the first half of the 15th century and continuing with trade, peace and war up to the late 17th century, when the Second Siege of Vienna became a turning point not just in relations between Ottoman Turkey and Poland, but in the history of Europe. The exhibition opened under the patronage of the presidents of Turkey and Poland, supported by the ministries of foreign affairs and culture in both countries, with exhibits loaned from the collections of museums, archives, libraries, monasteries and churches in Poland, making a total of 348 exhibits.

The portrait of Sakip Sabanci
The video installation titled Sakıp Sabancı by Kutluğ Ataman is a portrait of the late Turkish industrialist, commissioned by the Sakıp Sabancı Family in 2011 for the 10th anniversary of the prominent philanthropist's passing. The work, consisting of photographs of the thousands of people who touched Sakıp Sabancı in some way throughout his life, reflects the businessman's thoughts on human beings, life and art as well as his energy. Then again the work multiplies, underlining and giving meaning to human existence which will continue virtually forever. Kutluğ Ataman created this work which constitutes a moment of silence in honour of Sakıp Sabancı and emphasizes his contribution to the development of technology in Turkey. Ataman used state-of-the-art technology in creating this work where the "raw material is, as a whole, human." The artwork was invited to be exhibited at the Arsenale section of the 56th Venice Biennale titled "All the World’s Futures", where it will be on view through May 9, 2015 – November 22, 2015.

Joan Miró. Women, Birds, Stars
The exhibition focused on the maturity period of the groundbreaking and multi-faceted artist, exhibiting on woman, bird and star themes of Miró, who was heavily inspired by his observations on the Mediterranean geography and people throughout his career. The exhibition provided the opportunity for viewers to understand the symbolic language of the artist through a rich selection of artworks in different mediums such as oil on canvas, sculpture, lithography and ceramics. With this exhibition, art enthusiasts in Istanbul will be able to witness the various interpretations of the energy the artist drew from the Mediterranean culture. ‘Joan Miró. Women, Birds, Stars’ consists of a total of 125 works – oil and acrylic paintings, lithographs, etchings, and assemblages with relevant models and drawings as well as his textiles and ceramic works. Joan Miró. Women, Birds, Stars’ comprised a total of 125 works.

Ottoman Calligraphy from Sakıp Sabancı Museum
Selected artpieces from the Calligraphy Collection of the Sakıp Sabancı Museum, have been on display in Real Alcázar, in Seville from April 4, 2008, to June 15, 2008. The exhibition following the "Lines in Gold: Ottoman Calligraphy from Sakıp Sabancı Museum, Istanbul" exhibition held in Madrid Real Academia de Bellas Artes de San Fernando, comprised fine examples demonstrating the developments in the Ottoman art of calligraphy over a period of 500 years. Works of great Ottoman-era calligraphers including Sheikh Hamdullah were presented in a significant location bearing the influence of Islamic architecture, Real Alcázar which was built during the time of Almohads.

digitalSSM: A comprehensive digital archive of art
digitalSSM has launched in 2013, marking the 10th anniversary of the SSM, and has proven to be one of the most innovative and comprehensive projects that the museum has conceived. The project provides the viewers from various backgrounds, such as academicians, art historians, art writers and critics, collectors and students, with access to the museum's collection through more than 77,000 high resolution images.

As the first digital platform in Turkey that covers the whole permanent collection in a museum, digitalSSM has also a primary role in the preservation of the cultural legacy. The platform contains all the content information related with the items in SSM's Arts of the Book and Calligraphy Collection, The Painting Collection, Abidin Dino Archive and Emirgan Archive.

By means of the software “CONTENTdm”, digitalSSM provides access to the museum's collection and archive from all around the world and offers searching facility through an advanced engine.

With respect to the open access policy, the whole collection and the archive is open to use without any requirement of registration or fee. Furthermore, both local and international researchers’ demands are met with the consideration of the copyright standards.

In addition to the high resolution images of the items in the collection, digitalSSM provides the user with related information, such as the artist, date, size, material, techniques, location and the previous owner. The users of the site are also given the option to add images, that they would like to re-examine in the future, to their favourites.

The most comprehensive content in the platform belongs to The Arts of the Book and Calligraphy Collection, and high resolution images, which enable the viewer to study all the pieces in the collection, page by page, are featured along with related academic researches. To name a few; the Koran edition, which reflects the style of the famous court gilder Kara Memi, of the Suleiman I era (1520–1566); the sole edition of the Koran inscribed by Bayezid II's (1481–1512) heir Şehzade Korkud; and the Koran edition that was inscribed by the famous calligrapher Hafız Osman in 1682 are to be found in digitalSSM's collection.

www.digitalssm.org

Food and drink
Since 2005, the award-winning Turkish restaurant Changa has a branch "Müzedechanga" at the museum. The glass-enshrouded venue, winner of Wallpaper* magazine's 2007 award for best-designed restaurant, serves up a concise but delicious menu of international dishes coordinated by the renowned Kiwi chef Peter Gordon.

title: Sakıp Sabancı Museum


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User talk:Augest

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! — Instantnood 21:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
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HKWNB, HKCOTW, Current events
Hello Augest. Thanks for your contributions to the Leslie Cheung article. You might be interested to take a look at HK wikipedians' notice board, HK Collaboration of the Week and Current events in Hong Kong and Macao. Happy editing! — Instantnood 21:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Images of Leslie Cheung
You have uploaded images of Leslie Cheung that may or may not be legal as their copyright status is in question. Most of the images, except for the CD album cannot be used as fair use images as their copyright belongs to the original news agency or photographer. Please update the copyright status for the images, justify why they constitute fair use or remove them altogether. Thanks. --speedoflight 03:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I have left you messages here and on the Leslie Cheung page concerning the copyright for the images. I haven't heard back. Please reply. Thanks. --speedoflight | talk to me 06:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your latest reply back. And also thanks for working on this article. Some suggestions I do have for improving this article is to cite it to reliable sources (substantial publication/editors/date), i.e. create footnotes, reference links, etc.

 * Your image of his funeral hearse was most likely not photographed by the Leslie Club that you sourced it to. If you should claim fair use, you should at least source it to the right photographer, news agency, etc. --speedoflight | talk to me 09:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Cheung's Suicide Note
The actual suicide note in Chinese should be posted and its English translation listed alongside. As with any translation, it's always better to have the original listed so that those who can read the language, can appreciate its original intent.

BTW, you're doing a great job with the article. The only thing lacking are citations to notable publications. Citations are very important to verify that the reported information is factual versus subjective hearsay, gossip, etc. --speedoflight | talk to me 00:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Grammatical Errors in Leslie Cheung Article
Please ensure that your edits do not have grammatical errors. You keep reverting back to editions of the page that are filled with grammatical errors. --speedoflight | talk to me 07:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

you wrote: Please don't remove background or useful information when you do "gramma" corrections. --Augest 05:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Your "facts" are written as points of views. I have requested many times that you cite sources with footnotes or reference notes. If you are unsure of how to do this, please refer to Wikipedia's citation policies. During a copy edit, if information is found redundant or insufficiently cited, it needs to be removed.

 * Please review: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

--speedoflight | talk to me 09:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Edits
you wrote: I keep telling you to be patient as I am still in my process to finger out a better way to put references and resources staff. However, you keep removing things in all kinds of excuses, introducing tons of mistakes, and making the article ambiguous. If you want to put whatever references you want, go ahead and do it. Or if anything you consider as needed a reference, EXPLICITLY POINTED OUT. Don't just rudely remove things with ridiculous reasons. Not "EVERY" piece of sentence needs a reference, otherwise ALL articles in wiki should be removed. I spent THREE months to verify the information, correct errors and finish the current article. To dig out all the original resources may need another 3 months. I also need break during the Christmas season. Please be patient!!! --Augest 18:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * If you cannot verify something yet or don't have the time to cite something, then don't put it up on Wikipedia yet. Articles on Wikipedia are syndicated to many sites and once content is syndicated, it is sometimes not updated. Hence, information that is erroneous, including poor grammar is populated across. I have removed information that you have not cited or verifed. You write in content that contain POV that is either yours or some other sources. By Wikipedia standards, these need to be remove. I realize you have emotional attachment to your content. As a writer/contributor, the first rule of thumb is to isolate your emotions away from your content and write in a neutral tone and CITE, CITE, CITE. If you cannot verify statistics, data and CITE them on the page, then it needs to be removed, period. Wikipedia or any source that is reputable is based on written communication. In other words, if you cannot write down your information source when you research, then it is either considered plagiarism or unverifiable. --speedoflight | talk to me 19:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Do NOT remove tags on the page
Please do not remove the tags concerning the article's health. The article is poorly written. Needs major copy edit, citations. All of these issues are documented on the article's discussion page. You insist on reverting back to editions that have poor edits. I am not sure what your motivations are. We are all writing for the benefit of Wikipedia. Any article on Wikipedia, no matter if the subject is something dear to you or not needs to conform to standards. Wikipedia is not a tabloid magazine. It's a resource site and has a reputation to uphold. I am not going to indulge you in some trivial edit war. You are obviously someone who cares about the subject and may even be a huge fan of Cheung's and being so, do what is best for the article, not for your ego. A write needs to learn to not fall in love with his/her words. The article does not belong to you or I. It belongs to the community called Wikipedia. So please think long and hard about where your interests are. Wikipedia is not your private Web site to write and put whatever you wish. There are standards that must be upheld so that Wikipedia can be used as a resource site for everyone. You could learn a lot from in writing from reputable sources and cleaning up your grammar on the page. If you do not know how to do so, let others do it. --speedoflight | talk to me 03:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

cleanup tag
Please explain your cleanup tag on Orientalism. And no, it is not a prerequisite for writing on this topic that one should have read the book, since the topic is not about the Said book, but about the concept and the tradition. However, if you have any objections to the way the book is characterised in the subsection devoted to it, please indicate them. Otherwise the cleanup tag is rather difficult to make sense of and I will remove it. Paul B 09:30, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I did not write the section on the book, but I have certainly read the book. I added the section on criticisms of the book. The book-summary section seems to me to give a broadly accurate account of Said's arguments. Saying something is "woefully inadequate" without indicating how, is itself woefully inadequate. You still remain mysteriously quiet about just what it is that is wrong with the summary. The tenor of your comments suggest that you believe Said's book to be authoritative in some way, but seem unable or unwilling to suggest just how it has been misrepresented. I suggest you read some of the reviews written at the time, or more recent commentaries on Said's model of "orientalism" [1]. Paul B 09:23, 31 July 2005 (UTC) Well I haven't practiced my swinging, so I'll have to pass on the contest. But I still think you miss the central point. The article is not about the book. The book is a particular intervention in the tradition, one that is clearly important enough to single out, but not to be treated as "gospel" in any sense. Perhaps more on Said's arguments would be desirable. Perhaps more on Lewis's criticisms would be more pertinent. Perhaps we could have more on the art, or more on the details of western scholarly commentary on eastern cultures, or more on eastern views on the west. Perhaps and perhaps. I can only assume that the real reason for singling out the book called "Orientalism" is an assumption that this particular book is central to what the article should be about, partly because the names are the same. And that's essentially my problem with the cleanup notice. Paul B 21:40, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC) Please - I do not think you have earned the right to tell me what is "not a very good attitude to have on Wikipedia". I have as much right "unilaterally" to remove the tag as you did to add it. I was behaving no more unilaterally than you were. There was no sign whatever of a wider "community" who agreed with you. I removed the tag for the following reasons:

1. A cleanup tag is inappropriate. It is mainly used for articles that are badly written or otherwise chaotic. I don't think even you thought that this was the case. 2. A cleanup tag refers the reader to the talk page for the reasons why a cleanup tag has been added. You added nothing to talk page to explain the tag. Is this "a very good attitude to have on Wikipedia"? 3. Unnecessary cleanup tags make Wikipedia look bad. They give the impression that the articles are poor and unprofessional. They should only be there when an article really does need to be cleaned up - in order to show that Wikipedians are aware of inadequacies. 4. When I asked you why you had added it I got no clear explanation. You could tell me nothing that was actually wrong with the article, and resorted to the, in my view bizarre, argument that you believed that if someone read Said's book "more closely" then they would come up with a different reading of it than the authors of the article. Now, either you have read it closely and can say what is wrong with the account or you have not. You cannot reasonably claim that some other mystery person will, if they read it, come up with an argument that agrees with your inexpressible intuitions.

I think a request for section-expansion would have been far more appropriate than a cleanup tag. However, what I am going to do is put in a Peer Review request, that is a request for Wikpedians to suggest improvements. Paul B 15:22 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Linkspro, your language is wholly inappropriate. It is clear that you are resorting to the last refuge of insult. I have explained my thinking on the subject as clearly as I can and I have taken appropriate action by requesting Peer review. Here's a link to the relevant page [2]. I note that the only content-related addition so far has been to emphasise criticism of Said's text. Perhaps other editors will respond differently. Paul B 23:55 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) Since your language is becoming increasingly childish, I see no advantage in further discussion with you. Your arguments were not remotely "exact", they were nowhere to be seen. You were uncompromising only in the sense that you you folded your arms and refured to budge. If you think that stubbornness is the same as integrity that I suspect you are mistaken. If I am "delusional" then I suppose User:TheoClarke and User:Pmanderson must be too. In your first reply to my query you wrote "I think most everyone who has read the book would agree with this judgement." I've provided you will links to reviews to indicate otherwise. The above users evidently think otherwise. You have provided no argument at all that is not vague and unspecific. Paul B 10:13 25 Aug 2005 (UTC)

peer review
Nomination procedure

Anyone can request peer review here. When posting your request, include a brief description of the kind of comments/contributions you want, and sections of the article you think need to be reviewed. The best way to get lots of reviews is to reply promptly and appreciatively on this page to the comments you do get.

* Procedure for adding nominations:

1. Place peerreview at the top of the article's talk page (not the article itself) to let other editors of the article know that the article is being peer reviewed. 2. From there, click on the link request has been made that appears in the new "peer review" box. This will open a page to discuss the review of your article. 3. Place ===name of nominated article=== at the top (do not forget the link brackets). 4. Below it, write your reason for nominating the article and sign by using four tildes (Augest 02:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)). 5. Place at the top of the list of nominees found on this page (Requests). 6. Politely request feedback on the discussion pages of one or more articles in the same or a related field, and/or send messages to one or more individual Wikipedians who have contributed to the same or a closely related field.

Establishment of The Wikimedia Hong Kong
encyclopedist 17:04, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Phantom Lover
Hi, an image you recently uploaded, Image:Phantom.jpg replaced another image that was used on the The Phantom of the Opera (1986 musical) page, which was causing problems. I have reverted your upload, and I'm afraid you'll have to reupload the 夜半歌聲 poster again using a different file name. Thank you! _dk 00:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

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Leslie Cheung edits
Okay. Is it possible to find a citation that allows for an estimation of the crowd size? He was fabulously popular in China, and it might be more appropriate to reference how many folk mourned his death. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  03:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * There are a lot of Hong Kong newspapers reported on that during the time. I remember the estimation is about 40,000 or so. That's about the crowd on site. The ppl mourned on his death but not be on site could not be counted. But it is reported the yahoo search rate for "Leslie Cheung" set a record that day.
 * If you know Chinese, you can check the HK newspaper during the time to verify. --Augest (talk) 03:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I do not know Chinese (either Mandarin, Cantonese or Shanghainese), and am unable to verify. As you seemed to speak authoritatively as to how many were in attendance (and if you didn't you should not have reverted my edit),I presumed that you do know Chinese.
 * It is best to avoid Google searches as an indication, as they cannot be cited reliably. It is better to find news accounts for the number of people mourning not just in HK but at gatherings throughout China in the najor metropolitan areas. I know that Shanghai, for instance, saw over 200,000 people gather to mourn his suicide. If you have citations, pkease add them. :) - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  03:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand you. Millions is definitely right if you count the mourn activity world wide. But please pay attention to the article/context. Here we are talking of the ppl ON SITE in Cheung's ceremony in HONG KONG. Plus, your edit revert my original edit. Do you have any reference? I read newspaper myself and was following up the whole thing back in 2004 --Augest (talk) 03:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I add the reference. --Augest (talk) 04:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:LeslieCheung01.JPG
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:LeslieCheung01.JPG
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First Anniversary Celebrations of Wikimedia Hong Kong
Invitied by Sith lord darth vader (talk), 15:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Celebrations for 2nd Anniversary of Wikimedia Hong Kong

Dear:  ：

Wikimedia Hong Kong has been founded two year ago. Today, we would like to invite you to a great event for our second anniversary celebrations, that is co-host by us - Digital Content Jam 1.0, which is belongs to The 3C Digital Creativity Dialogue Series -- Creativity, Content, Community.

This is the information of the event：

 * Date: 31, July, 2009 (Friday)
 * Time: From 7:00pm to 9:30pm
 * Venue: eTech Centre Meeting Room M2 &3, 4/F Opulent Building, 402-406 Hennessy Road, Wan Chai（Google map）
 * '''Language: Cantonese
 * Free snacks and drinks will be served!

'''Please register via the link below to tell us if you would like to join the event. Registration Form'''

Regards, Hong Kong Wikimedian Tango Chan 13:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

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Hong Kong meetup 58
SusanLai (talk) 00:23, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free media (File:LeslieCheung01.JPG)
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Hong Kong meetup 83
SusanLai (talk) 09:44, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Hong Kong meetup 84
SusanLai (talk) 06:46, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Hong Kong meetup 86
SusanLai (talk) 06:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Hong Kong meetup 87
SusanLai (talk) 04:49, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Hong Kong meetup 87
SusanLai (talk) 04:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Hong Kong meetup 89
SusanLai (talk) 01:39, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Hong Kong meetup 90
SusanLai (talk) 02:03, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Hong Kong meetup 90
SusanLai (talk) 04:17, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Augest
User:Augest, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Augest and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of User:Augest during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Whpq (talk) 05:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Augest


text:
User:Annatar

01100001011011100110111001100001011101000110000101110010

title: User:Annatar


text: User talk:68.81.62.20

title: User talk:68.81.62.20


text:
User talk:Charles wessex

Image Tagging Image:107092137925836197265 1.jpg
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Image copyright problem with Image:Doniños_beach_in_El_Ferrol.jpg
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Image copyright problem with Image:Ramon_Franco.jpg
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License tagging for Image:Shipyards in Ferrol circa 1772.jpg
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Image Tagging Image:El Ferrol del Caudillo 1961.JPG
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If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. cjllw | TALK  09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Municipalities in Galicia
Hi Charles. This is a repeat of a request I had earlier placed on an anonymous IP's user page, but it seems looking a little more closely that the edits in question were made by you, when you were logged out. The request is: could you please consider not pasting the same identical text into the various articles on Galician municipalities in the Ferrolterra region. The articles are meant to describe the particular place, and repetition of the same generic information across these articles does not really help. The long list of links being added are also not really all relevant, and some of the information in the new text is not really structured correctly (for eg, describing these as 'bouroughs', when municipality is perfectly correct). The same couple of images being placed into of them is not appropriate either (and incidentally, those images uploaded by you do not specify the source- were they taken by you yourself?) Regards, --cjllw | TALK  13:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks Charles, and I do think that "municipality" is the most apt term to use for these articles- it is how they are incorporated in the administrative structure (municipios), how all Spanish entities at this level are described in wikipedia for other autonomous communities and provinces, and while terms like "bourough" and "city council" could be considered rough equivalents, they mean different things in different regions.
 * I agree that for these specific ones their common association and dependence on the Ferrolterra region can be highlighted in their respective articles, I just think that we need to keep the repetition of the same text across articles to a minimum. The details of what Ferrolterra consists of, its history and so on are best explained in its own article (although presently Ferrolterra redirects to Ferrol, and so might need to be separated once more from the article on the city itself). Whether the region is being 'punished' by the subdivision, I can't really comment- but these are valid and recognised administrative subdivisions, whether or not they have an independent governmental / economic structure of their own.
 * Re the postcard images, I'm afraid that 40 years is generally not long enough for a photo's copyright to have expired. Although there's some room for debate as to which jurisdiction's copyright laws apply for material published here on wikipedia, in most instances for images the copyright expiry is at least date of publication + 50 years, and for many life +70 years or even longer. It would be difficult to say without knowing the publisher of that postard or where it was published, but at the very least US copyright laws need to be observed (where wikipedia's servers are running from), and it seems quite doubtful that use of this img (and similar) would be permissable. Unfortunately, the general trend among governments updating their respective copyright laws is to extend the copyright term further and further. --cjllw | TALK  00:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Ferrol-Mondonedo Diocese.jpg
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Hello!

Thanks for uploading some pictures to Wikipedia. I wanted to make sure you were aware of some of the requirements and good practices for uploaded images.

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Thanks again for your contributions. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me at my talk page. feydey 15:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Diocese of Ferrol-Mondoñedo
Did you see how I wikified the Diocese of Ferrol-Mondoñedo article by creating subheadings and bullets? Please do the same for the other articles you created. Thanks and welcome to Wikipedia. -EdGl 22:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Welcome to Wikipedia. :) Good job creating articles for the Galician dioceses. But, as i mentioned in the discussions Talk:Diocese of Ferrol-Mondoñedo and Talk:Diocese of Orense, shouldn't the articles be called "Diocese of Mondoñedo-Ferrol" and "Diocese of Ourense" ? Evv 03:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You might be right about that. -Charles wessex 19:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Would you then allow me to move the articles Diocese of Ferrol-Mondoñedo and Diocese of Orense to Diocese of Mondoñedo-Ferrol and Diocese of Ourense ? Please, answer me right here or in User talk:Evv. :) Evv 21:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

re redirects and page moves for Ferrol
Hi Charles. Just some friendly advice on some procedural matters you may or may not be familiar with (and in no way intended to be a criticism of your otherwise generally fine expansions to these Galician articles.

Firstly, if you want to change the name of an article, the way to do it would be to move the page to the new title, instead of simply redirecting the old article to the new title, as you've done for Ferrol, A Coruña to Ferrol, Ferrolterra (see How to move a page for how this is done). The reason behind this is that by moving the page you preserve the editing history of the article (ie the list of all previous edits to the article which can be seen when you click on the "history" tab). It is important to preserve this information so that other editors/readers can see which bits were added when and by whom, and this information is also theoretically needed in case any of the contributors need to be contacted by some third party wishing to use the material for some commerical/non-commercial purpose, to ascertain the licensing release for this. However, now that you have created the new article independently of this process and it has now an edit history of its own, it will need an administrator to effect the move to that title. I have reverted the Ferrol, A Coruña article back to its pre-redirect status.

Secondly, I for one am not convinced that Ferrol, Ferrolterra is a better article title than the present one (Ferrol, A Coruña). The general convention for cases such as this is that if some further disambiguation in the title is needed for placenames, it is usually sufficient to be either Place, country or Place, state/province/autonomous community. The guiding principle is that the second disambiguating term should be at a high-enough level so that it is recognisable to the majority of readers- make it too localised and there's a good chance a reader passing by won't know what to search for or recognise it when it comes up in their search results. If you still think that your proposed new name is more suitable, then I would recommend that you go to WP:RM and follow the procedures documented there to nominate the renaming (which you would need to do in any case now since the move can only be done by administrators). This allows the wider community to assess your proposal first and provide their comments on it. As noted, I'd not be in favour of such a move presently.

Thirdly, I also note that you had changed the article at Ferrol from a disambiguation page to firstly a redirect to the article on the Galician city, and then a duplicate of the Galician city's article. Disambiguation pages exist in cases (like this) where there is more than one notable place called "Ferrol" in the world (this is a global encyclopaedia after all), and since we cannot predict which of these Ferrols a wikipedia reader might be looking for, the disambiguation page gives them a list to chose from so that they can find the one they are looking for. Possibly you might contend that the Galician city is by far and away the most common or notable use of the term, in which case you'd need to propose via WP:RM that Ferrol, A Coruña be moved to Ferrol. Even in this case we'd still need to preserve the reference to the other places called Ferrol, such as a link on each to a Ferrol (disambiguation) page for example. My opinion would be that the previous situation was working fine, and does not need to be changed. I have reverted the Ferrol article back to its disambiguation format.

And finally, might I suggest that we keep Ferrol, A Coruña as the article describing the municipality/city of Ferrol, and that the additional information you've been adding re the urban area/region be expanded upon at the Ferrolterra article (ie, have two separate articles). This way we would distinguish between the municipal entity and the surrounding region, which although interlinked are not quite the same thing. I'd be happy to help out if you've any further queries re the procedures &c. Regards, --cjllw | TALK  03:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Charles wessex


text:
Talk:Carter (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles)

Articles for Deletion debate
This article was redirected to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 TV series) as a result of an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splash talk 21:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Läther

Unreliable Sources??? - Really???
Some citations that came from the website Discogs.com were recently removed from the article. Regardless of whether you believe the information on Discogs to be a source of reliable OPINION, the references do show pictures of the actual items in question. They prove that there is a market for these rare items and that they are real and DO EXIST. It is not OPINION as to the existence of these items it is FACT. The assumption that sites such as Discogs do not or cannot post reliable factual information is flat out ridiculous.

Several other similar web sources (IE: Popsike) have reported information that is in agreement with Discogs. This further supports the argument that items such as the Phonogram "Läther" test pressing and the Edison Records bootleg box are FACTUAL and REAL. So what exactly is the argument against Discogs and similar sites? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.213.218 (talk) 19:31, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

 * A question: since this is a 3 CD box, why are the songs listed as an eight-sided vinyl?... I think this is unneccessary. This way its quitehard to tell which song is on which CD - and anyway: there was NEVER a eight-sided vinyl. hm? mmBálint, Hungary —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.82.192 (talk) 16:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand your confusion, but it is incorrect to say that the package was never an 8 sided vinyl album. The package was prepared by Zappa as 8 vinyl sides in 1977 and widely bootlegged in this and other forms for about 20 years. So many fans are familiar with it in that format. Still, I think it is a good idea to clarify the difference between the bootleg vinyl and CD editions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoni4316 (talk • contribs) 05:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks!!! mmB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.82.192 (talk) 16:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm a little confused by the statement "The album does not include "Baby Snakes", a song which was originally planned for the album but never included on any known recording." Unless there is a specifically different version associated with this collection, "Baby Snakes" appears on the album Sheik Yerbouti. 24.63.25.206 (talk) 00:45, 22 March 2013 (UTC)delzey

CD release confusion
From the text: "When the material was first released on CD while Zappa was alive (??? Zappa died in 1993, the CD release was in 1996 ???) he chose to issue the 4 individual album configuration"

Lather wasn't released as Lather until 1996, but the 4-album "versions" were first released on CD - here in the UK via Zappa Records, Music For Nations - in 1991 [source: http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/vinylvscds/sleepdirt.html etc]

So am about to edit out the bit in question marks :c) 92.62.2.239 (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The first CD releases of music from Läther were in the U.S. in 1991 on Zappa's Barking Pumpkin label (distributed by Capitol Records.) The overseas releases came later. Zappa was very much alive when the masters for the first CDs were prepared. Though it is correct that he had died by the time Läther had officially appeared on CD in 1996.--anonymous

No mention of this in Billboard article here, which states that Lather was first officially released by Rykodisc in 1996.WTF (talk) 04:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The four individual albums came first
It's plainly inaccurate to state that FZ ever delivered Lather to Warner Bros, or that they refused to release it. He didn't, and they didn't. He delivered the tapes for Zappa in New York, Studio Tan, Sleep Dirt and Orchestral Favorites to Warners, and they failed to pay FZ a contractually obligated amount of money within a contractually obligated amount of time. Since they never paid and were in breach of contract *AND* they still had FZ's tapes in their possession, he THEN created the four-LP set and delivered it to Mercury/Phonogram, believing he was free to do so because Warners had violated the terms of their contract. There is a Warner Bros. ad in a June, 1977 issue of Rolling Stone which announces the release of Zappa in New York as "imminent." The 2-track masters for Lather were not even created until July-August 1977 (a brief note dated 8-21-77 is visible on one of the track listings inside the booklet of the Lather triple CD on Rykodisc.) You can't simply state that Lather was "re-edited" into the other albums, as some of them contain material which is not on Lather and the reverse is also true, as it contains material that was recorded both before and after ANYTHING on the four individual albums (the "newest" material on Lather is taken from live tapes recorded in London in February 1977.) This article really needs some work done on it to reflect what actually happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.63.54 (talk) 01:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that doesn't wash. Frank Zappa said in HIS OWN WORDS in a 1977 Record Review interview it was intended as a 4-LP boxed set; Gail Zappa - who most assuredly knew FZ's intentions, also backed up that account.50.111.36.238 (talk) 10:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, but the reasons why this DOES WASH is that it is confirmed by several Zappa interviews from the period. Gail only made her claims after Frank's death.

https://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-04_Oui.htm

This interview is an example where Frank specifically claims he delivered "four albums" to Warner, meaning, exactly what he says FOUR SEPARATE ALUBMS. Right after saying this he follows it up by mentioning two of these albums by name. These are "Zappa in New York" and "Studio Tan". These were the first two of the four that Warner put out and they appeared in 1978. In the interview Zappa also says "they" (Warner) are "getting ready to release another one". This most likely was "Sleep Dirt" which appeared in January 1979. Aside from Gail's mistaken posthumous comments there never has been any evidence that Zappa actually delivered the 4 album Lather box to Warner. Zappa has never been quoted as saying that he delivered Lather to Warner. Lather is one album, not four albums. Sorry, but Gail got things wrong sometimes. 75.172.192.233 (talk) 09:37, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Four individual albums
If anyone still thinks that Läther came first then they should read the Record Review interviews with Zappa here: https://www.afka.net/Mags/Record_Review.htm#1979-04

There are many reasons why Läther did not come first. Here are 8 of the best ones:

(1) Nowhere in any of the 3 Record Review interviews, or anywhere else, does Zappa say that he delivered Läther to Warner. He says that he delivered "4 albums", meaning exactly what he says 4 INDIVIDUAL ALBUMS. The interviewer thinks that Zappa is talking about Läther or a 4-LP set but Zappa NEVER says this. Instead he said "4 albums" and he used this phrase in the interview more than once.

(2) A 4-LP box would not have fulfilled the Warner contract because it would be one release, not 4 releases. In fact, Zappa's comments in the interview imply that he only got the idea of releasing a 4-LP box AFTER having an argument with a Warner executive about releasing the 4 individual albums.

(3) The latest tracks on Läther are live recordings in London from February 1977. The songs are "Tryin to Grow a Chin" and "Broken Hears Are for Assholes". This is AFTER all recording of the rest of the material on the 4 individual albums. The Feb 1977 tracks on Läther could not have been included on the 4 individual albums because those albums had already been completed. These 2 tracks would not have fit into the 4 individual album collection because most of it was studio recordings and the live recordings on the individual albums were all from New York, not London. Different recordings of these 2 tracks were done later and ended up on "Shiek Yerbouti".

(4) When Gail claimed that Läther came first it was nearly 20 years after the fact. In light of what we already know about her character Gail's comments are not reliable. Crazed fanatics that study the details actually know much more Zappa history than she did. When the official release of Läther appeared in 1996 she had an agenda, which was promoting a "new" album.

(5) The Läther tapes were compiled in July/August of 1977. Notes from the tape boxes show this date, which is AFTER "Zappa in New York" had already been scheduled for release. The ZINY recordings come from December 1976 and overdubs were done in early 1977, thus making the expected release date sometime in the Spring or early Summer of 1977. We also know that a release date was scheduled in June 1977.

(6) The claim that Zappa played Läther on the radio in 1977 because he was upset with Warner not releasing Läther is not credible. This is because Zappa's troubles with Warner goes back further than 1977. Zappa was upset with Warner over not paying for the 4 individual albums, not because of the failure to release Läther. Warner got the 4 individual albums, but not Läther. The dispute between Zappa and Warner goes back to at least 1976 with the release of "Zoot Alures" and may have started even earlier.

(7) One of the reasons Warner did not release Läther is because Frank didn't submit it to them. We do know that Frank submitted the individual albums in 1977. That is the reason why Warner was able to release them later. And, no there is no reason to suspect that Frank would have submitted both versions. His goal was to get out of the Warner contract ASAP. There is NO reason to think he would have submitted more than the minimum number of recordings required by the contract.

(8) Ok folks, you asked for it, that's right, here's the smoking gun. The editor of this 1978 interview says "the 4 records were re-edited, put in a box and titled Lather (pronounced leather). It was supposed to be released by Mercury/Phonogram, but for "suspect reasons" it was not." Case closed! Read the whole interview for yourself here: https://www.afka.net/images/Magazines/1974/1978-04-19%20Eggz%20page%2008-09.jpg

This is another earlier 1978 interview which says the same thing. This was also used as a reference for the interview above: https://www.afka.net/Articles/1978-01_Melody_Maker.htm 75.172.192.233 (talk) 11:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

CD version vs. "planned" four-album set
Article states While the official CD version of Läther released is based on the planned quadruple album, it contains deviations from the original version, such as the additional spoken interludes and percussion-based sound effects. The 4-LP test pressing, the records that FZ played on the radio and all subsequent bootlegs derived from both include the spoken and percussion interludes (FZ referred to them as "grouts"). The CD version is exactly the 2-track masters that were located in the vault. I believe Joe Travers and Spencer Chrislu have both stated that while one of the tape boxes does show a slightly different track listing (the one that contains "Baby Snakes", pictured in the CD booklet) the tape found inside that box matches what was on the test pressing. 65.25.63.54 (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

✅. While this is what I've always heard, Gail Zappa's liner notes to the original CD seem to imply that additional tapes were used. Not to mention that the production is referred to as "the resurrection and reconstitution of "Leather." Friginator (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 22:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Läther