text:
Tianmen

Tianmen is a sub-prefecture-level city (sometimes considered a county-level city) in central Hubei Province, China.

It is on the Jianghan Plain, on the west side of Wuhan (the biggest city of Central China, as well as the capital of Hubei) and the east of Jingzhou (a famous city in Chinese history). Formerly known as Jingling (竟陵), it was renamed to Tianmen in 1726 during the Qing dynasty. The name comes from the Sky Gate Mountains (meaning “tianmen” in Chinese) which lie northwest of the city.

It is the hometown of Lu Yu, the writer of The Classic of Tea, who is respected as "the Sage of Tea" for his contribution to the tea culture. Tianmen has the largest population among the same-level cities in Central China. It was honoured "National Civilized City" by Chinese government in 2014.

History
Prehistoric ancient settlements in the Tianmen area existed at least 7,000 to 8,000 years ago as evidenced by Shijiahe neolithic tribal ruins which include recent discoveries of stone (jade) devices, pottery, bone, mussels, as well as bronze articles and other artifacts, such as those in the original Tao Zu patrilineal cultural heritage period.

In January 2008, more than 100 persons and city officials in Tianmen came under investigation after the fatal beating of a 41-year-old man, Wei Wenhua, general manager of a construction company, who was using his cellphone to photograph a dispute between villagers and city inspectors.

Population
As of the end of 2022, the permanent resident population of Tianmen City was 1,105,800 people.

According to the seventh national census in 2020, the permanent resident population of the city was 1,158,640 people. Compared with the 1,418,913 people from the sixth national census, there was a decrease of 260,273 people over ten years, a decline of 18.34%, with an average annual growth rate of -2.01%. Among them, the male population was 606,285 people, accounting for 52.33% of the total population; the female population was 552,355 people, accounting for 47.67% of the total population. The total population sex ratio (with females as 100) was 109.76. The population aged 0-14 years was 199,948 people, accounting for 17.26% of the total population; the population aged 15-59 years was 659,700 people, accounting for 56.94% of the total population; the population aged 60 and above was 298,992 people, accounting for 25.81% of the total population, among which those aged 65 and above were 208,068 people, accounting for 17.96% of the total population. The population living in urban areas was 502,908 people, accounting for 43.41% of the total population; the population living in rural areas was 655,732 people, accounting for 56.59% of the total population.

Overseas Chinese
Tianmen City is a famous hometown of overseas Chinese in mainland China and a key hometown of overseas Chinese in Hubei Province. More than 280,000 overseas Chinese, Chinese, and compatriots from Hong Kong and Macao from Tianmen live in more than 40 countries and regions across five continents. The city has more than 500 returned overseas Chinese and over 82,000 relatives of overseas Chinese, Hong Kong, and Macao residents.

The emigration of Tianmen overseas Chinese began at the end of the 18th century, going through several stages including moving northward (to Europe), moving southward (to Southeast Asia), and the new immigration period.

Culture
Tianmen City is a renowned cultural hometown. World cultural figures such as the "Tea Saint" Lu Yu, Tang Dynasty poet Pi Rixiu, Ming Dynasty Jingling School literary representative figures Zhong Xing, Tan Yuanchun, and Qing Dynasty top scholar Jiang Liyong were born here. Since the restoration of the college entrance examination system, Tianmen has sent over 54,000 college students to the nation, earning the reputation of the "hometown of top scholars."

Tianmen is full of places of interest and historical sites. Within its territory is the Stone Age village site of Shijiahe, the largest Neolithic village site in the Yangtze River basin to date, the famous Buddhist temple Bai Long Temple built during the Southern Dynasties, well-preserved and majestic, and Lu Yu Pavilion, Wenxue Spring, Ancient Goose Bridge in memory of Lu Yu, as well as Zhong Xing's tomb, Tan Yuanchun's tomb, and the East Lake and West Lake scenic areas.

Hubei Province Tianmen Middle School is a nationally renowned provincial model high school, founded in 1912, located at the western end of Jingling Zhong Xing Avenue in Tianmen City, Hubei Province, the hometown of the Tea Saint Lu Yu. It is a garden-style school in Hubei Province, a provincial model high school, an advanced collective in the national education system, an advanced unit in the construction of spiritual civilization nationwide, with a history of more than one hundred years.

Hubei Province Tianmen Experimental High School is located on the north bank of East Lake in Tianmen. The school's history of education can be traced back to the Tianmen Normal Training Institute founded in the 32nd year of Guangxu in the Qing Dynasty (1906), which has gone through the processes of normal schools, secondary normal schools, and high schools, changing its name nine times and relocating eight times. In 2004, Tianmen Experimental High School ranked 28th on the comprehensive strength ranking of key middle schools in Hubei Province.

Administrative divisions
Tianmen administers:

Climate
Hometown of overseas Chinese of Central China: Tian men is a major hometown of overseas Chinese in Central Chinese. It is hometown of approximately 80,000 overseas Chinese, and also hometown of about 200,000 Hong Kong people, Macau people and Taiwanese.

Transportation

 * Tianmen South Railway Station and Xiantao West Railway Station on the Wuhan–Yichang Railway.

title: Tianmen


text:
Talk:Clinton River (Michigan)

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title: Talk:Clinton River (Michigan)


text:
Bud Browne

Bud Browne (July 12, 1912 – July 25, 2008) was an American early pioneer surf film maker. He was the first filmmaker to show surf movies commercially.

Browne was captain of the swim team at the University of Southern California in 1933. He learned to surf during his time in Venice, California. He began filming surfing in the 1940s while visiting Hawaii.

Early life
Bud Browne was born in Newtonville, Massachusetts on July 14, 1912 and died in San Luis Obispo, California on July 25, 2008. He moved to Los Angeles in 1931 and attended the University of Southern California, competing in collegiate swimming and became the captain of the team. In 1938, after graduating from the University, Browne obtained a job as a life guard. His time in this new occupation however, was short lived because he was soon enlisted into the Navy during World War II. While at war, he taught many Marines how to swim. After the war, he again received a job as a lifeguard and was given the nickname "Barracuda" because of his reputation as being one of the best body surfers of his time. While serving as a lifeguard in the late 1940s, Browne began filming body surfers. Realizing his potential, Browne went back to the University of South Carolina in the early 1950s to attend film school. While on a surfing expedition with Duke Kahanamoku in Waikiki, Hawaii in 1953, he made his inaugural film, Hawaiian Surfing Movies. The debut of his first film took place at John Adams Junior High School in Santa Monica, California to an audience of about 500 people. Because it was a silent film, Bud narrated the entirety of the film using the school's PA system.

Career
Over the next 11 years, Bud Browne would produce a movie each year, which all abided by the same basic structure: a montage of surfing action in either California or Hawaii followed by a few on the road moments between excursions. The entire process of Browne's film making protocol was relatively cheap, costing around five thousand dollars to film, edit, and produce. Bud Browne, along with filming all of the footage, also functioned as a one-man production and editing crew. After piecing many shots together to create a fluid film he would promote his films by driving to the coast of California and setting up tents where he would show his films for little cost. As Browne started to gain publicity and profit in the early 1960s, he was able to hire DJs to ship his films to the east coast of the United States and even further out, to parts of Europe and Australia. Browne's strong swimming skills provided useful in being able to steadily shoot while in the water. As much as his shots were taken in the water, Browne developed his own waterproof camera and waterproof wetsuit. These innovations allowed Browne to stay in the water and film for hours at a time. Among Browne's accomplishments is the pipeline shot that views a wave as it is crashing over top of the surfer, creating a water tunnel. Browne was the first of many film makers that followed in similar fashions such as Jon Severson and Greg Noll. Although Bud Browne never made much money off of the films that he created, it caused no hindrance on his projects: "It was always worthwhile for me because I got such a big hoot out of everyone enjoying the films”.

Films

 * Hawaiian Surfing Movie (1953)
 * Hawaiian Surf Movie (1955)
 * Trek to Makaha (1956)
 * The Big Surf (1957)
 * Surf Down Under (1958)
 * Cat on a Hot Foam Board (1959)
 * Surf Happy (1960)
 * Spinning Boards (1961)
 * Cavalcade of Surf (1962)
 * Gun Ho! (1963)
 * Locked In! (1964)
 * You'll Dance in Tahiti (1967)
 * Going Surfin' (1973).

title: Bud Browne


text:
Ignatius Gymnasium

Saint Ignatius Gymnasium (St. Ignatiusgymnasium) is one of the five categorial gymnasia (a type of school) in Amsterdam, Netherlands. Together with the Vossius Gymnasium, the Barlaeus Gymnasium and Cygnus Gymnasium it is among the most prestigious schools in Amsterdam. Ignatius is located in the Jan van Eijckstraat in the affluent 'Old South' district of Amsterdam.

It is one of the few Catholic gymnasiums in the Netherlands, founded in 1895. Originally a Jesuit school, it is named after the founder of the Jesuit Order Ignatius of Loyola. The school is fairly small and has a student population of about 900 with 70 staff.

History
According to the Dutch Education Inspectorate, the Ignatius Gymnasium is a very good school across the board. In the first three years, 2% has to repeat a class while 76% of the survivors pass their exams at once with an average grade of 6.9. All this is considered to be better than average. According to YELP, Ignatius ranks first among middle and high schools in Amsterdam. The Dutch magazine Elsevier chooses the Ignatius Gymnasium for several years as one of the best schools in the Netherlands. The school was elected as the best school in the province of North Holland in 2004. In 2010, Elsevier placed the school alongside ‘The winners of 2010, least repeaters and best exam results’.

The school newspaper is called De Harpoen.

Notable alumni

 * Bertus Aafjes, a writer
 * Paul Biegel, author of children's books
 * Frans Brüggen, conductor and record player
 * Paul Josef Crutzen, a Nobel Prize winner
 * Bernard Delfgaauw, professor of philosophy at the University of Groningen
 * beer magnate from the Heineken company
 * Rad Kortenhorst, former president of the House of Representatives
 * Frans van der Lugt, Jesuit priest murdered in Homs, Syria
 * Joseph Luns, former Secretaries-General of NATO
 * Lambert Meertens, former chairman of the PSP
 * Ivo Niehe, television personality
 * Eric Niehe, Olympic rower and former Dutch Ambassador in India
 * Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, former Secretaries-General of NATO
 * Pieter Seuren, a linguist
 * Piet Steenkamp, founder of the CDA
 * , an architect
 * , a journalist
 * , former editor of De Groene Amsterdammer
 * Charles van Rooy, former Minister of Social Affairs
 * Edo de Waart, conductor
 * Constant Nieuwenhuys, painter, visual artist and writer.
 * , former chairman of the employers' organization VNO-NCW

title: Ignatius Gymnasium


text:
Talk:Super Furry Animals

Name
The story about the shirts being the source of the name is at least incomplete; the term "SFA" in Britain means "sweet fuck-all", as in "how much money have you got?", "sweet fuck-all" (i.e., none) being the reply.

Infliences?
I'm not entirely sure that the influences listed Super_Furry_Animals are accurate and the link provided doesn't provide any information which backs these up. I think it's safe to say that these should be removed. Ryan R Beaupre (talk) 16:23, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposed updates on recent activities
Super Furry Animals reconvened on February 29, 2012 at Cardiff City Stadium to perform before a Wales v Costa Rica Gary Speed Memorial Match, in tribute to the late Welsh footballer and manager.

In 2014, craft brewer The Celt Experience created a tribute "Fuzzy Beer" in collaboration with the band.

````

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"Llanfairpwllgwyngllgogerychwyrndrobwllynyngofod" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Llanfairpwllgwyngllgogerychwyrndrobwllynyngofod. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 20 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 16:49, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Super Furry Animals


text:
Helen Tiffin

Helen M. Tiffin is an adjunct professor of English at the University of Wollongong, Australia, and an influential writer in post-colonial theory and literary studies.

Tiffin returned to Australia from Canada to take up her present post at the University of Tasmania. She was formerly Professor of English and Canada Research Chair (Tier 1) in English and Post-Colonial Studies at Queen's University. Prior to her move to Canada, Tiffin held the post of Professor in the School of English, Media Studies, and Art History (EMSAH) at the University of Queensland, where she was a founder member of the Postcolonial Research Group.

Tiffin's research and teaching interests include the history of colonial and post-colonial settler societies, literatures in English, Caribbean studies, literary theory, and more recently, the literary and cultural representation of animals.

Tiffin was elected Fellow of the Australian Academy of the Humanities in 2009.

Principal works

 * Robert Cribb, Helen Gilbert and Helen Tiffin. Wild Man from Borneo: A Cultural History of the Orangutan. University of Hawai'i Press, 2014: shortlisted for the General History Prize, New South Wales Premier's History Awards 2015.
 * Graham Huggan and Helen Tiffin. Postcolonial Ecocriticism: Literature, Animals, Environment. Routledge, 2010.
 * Helen Tiffin, ed. Five Emus to the King of Siam: Environment and Empire. Rodopi, 2007.
 * Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffiths, and Helen Tiffin. The Post-Colonial Studies Reader. Routledge, 2006.
 * Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffiths, and Helen Tiffin. The Empire Writes Back: Post-Colonial Literatures, Theory & Practice. Routledge, 1989; revised edition, 2002.
 * Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffiths, Helen Tiffin. Key Concepts in Post-Colonial Studies. Routledge, 1998.
 * Diana Brydon and Helen Tiffin. Decolonising Fictions: Comparative Studies in Post-Colonial Literatures. Dangaroo, 1993.
 * Gillian Whitlock, Helen Tiffin, John Pengwerne Matthews, eds. Re-Siting Queen's English: Text and Tradition in Post-colonial Literatures : Essays Presented to John Pengwerne Matthews. Rodopi, 1992.
 * Stephen Slemon and Helen Tiffin, eds. After Europe: Critical theory and post-colonial writing. Dangaroo Press, 1990.
 * Ian Adam and Helen Tiffin. Past the Last Post: Theorizing Post-colonialism and Post-modernism. University of Calgary Press, 1990.
 * Chris Tiffin and Helen Tiffin. South Pacific Stories. South Pacific Association for Commonwealth Literature and Language Studies, 1980.

title: Helen Tiffin


text:
Talk:Belle River (Michigan)

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Talk:Boardman River

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Edit Request: Keystone Dam destruction cause and date
The WIKI article on the Boardman River in NW Michigan states that the Keystone Dam was demolished in 1961, which is technically true but the manner of the destruction and actual date is not explained.

In the book "Currents of the Boardman" By Martin Melkild, Edited by A. V Williams on Page 35, it states that the Keystone Dam was destroyed in September, 1961 by a flood caused by a severe rain event and the failure of another dam upstream.

The exact quote is this:

In September, 1961, nature began to reclaim what man had taken from her. During a heavy rainstorm, the dam on Swainston Creek at Mayfield washed out. When the flood waters caused by this washout joined with the already swollen waters of the Boardman, it was more than the Keystone Dam could handle. Keystone also washed out that same evening."

Two photos of the demolished dam are in this book as well.

I would recommend this book as a very good compilation of oral history for the Boardman River. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.173.189 (talk) 21:17, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Boardman River


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Talk:Bear River (Michigan)

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Talk:Battle Creek River

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User:Lexi Marie/monobook.css

.MainPageLeft { border: 1px solid #ffc9c9; color: #000; background-color: #fff3f3; }

.MainPageRight { style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; color: #000;   background-color: #f0f0ff"; clear: right; text-align: left; float: right; padding: .4em .9em .9em; }
 * 1) siteNotice { display:none; }

title: User:Lexi Marie/monobook.css


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Klickibunti

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus (thus keep). -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 22:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Klickibunti
Wikipedia is not a dictionary of German neologisms. Rob Church Talk 17:10, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Since there's a parallel German article which appears to have more cultural context than a simple dictionary entry, I thought that this computer jargon loan word might be a worthy article. *shrug* RickScott 17:26, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, If the Germans think it's an encylopedic concept I'll trust their judgement. Kappa 21:01, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete or move to dictionary. For it to be a loan word, someone must have borrowed it in the first place and I don't see any evidence that English has.  Also a linguistics stub is inappropriate and I'm going to remove that.  If someone wants to transwiki the cultural context it might then become an article.   Dl yo ns 493   Ta lk   21:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


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Talk:Bark River (Michigan)

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User:Caligari (usurped)~enwiki

Hola, soy Rafa Couto, de alias caligari. Esto es mi página en el proyecto Wikipedia.

Intento mantener una bitácora web en El rincón de caligari. Visítame: podrás encontrar más información sobre mis aficiones, temas de interés...

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Talk:Au Sable River (Michigan)

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File:Elandhouse.jpg

Summary
Eland House, London SW1. Photo by John Arundel, October 2005.

title: File:Elandhouse.jpg


text:
Owain of Strathclyde

There were several kings of Strathclyde, Cumbria or Alt Clut whose names are sometimes given as Owain, Owen, Eógan and so on.

 * Eugein I of Alt Clut (Eugein son of Beli) (7th century), king of Alt Clut who defeated Domnall Brecc at Strathcarron in 642
 * Eugein II of Alt Clut (Eugein son of Dumnuagal) (8th century), king of Alt Clut
 * Owain ap Dyfnwal (fl. 934), King of the Cumbrians
 * Owain ap Dyfnwal (died 1015), King of the Cumbrians
 * Owain Foel (fl. 1018), King of the Cumbrians

title: Owain of Strathclyde


text:
Category:Golden Age comics creators

Comic book writers, artists, editors, and others associated with the Golden Age of comic books, the seminal period from the 1930s creation of the first newsstand comics to the decline of superhero comics' popularity in the late-1940s/early-1950s. This period saw the debut of the superhero archetype and the creation of such iconic characters as DC Comics' Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, Fawcett Publications' Captain Marvel, and Timely Comics' Captain America, the original Human Torch, and the Sub-Mariner, among others.

title: Category:Golden Age comics creators


text: User talk:198.209.77.233

title: User talk:198.209.77.233


text:
Talk:St. Clair River

Assessment
Rated start class today, might get to C but the article lacks references and inline citations.  PK T (alk)  15:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

List of crossings
I removed Expand list. The list appears to be complete -- although the NOAA chart shows ferries at Stag Island and Fawn Island, neither island has any roads or automobiles and a Google search suggests that the only public transportation for either are water taxis. . . Jim - Jameslwoodward (talk to me • contribs) 12:44, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:St. Clair River


text:
Talk:Ambassador Bridge

NPOV Dispute & Removed Vitriolic Section
I removed these vitriolic sections as they do nothing to further the article.

"Charles Charles and David Koch, wealthy industrialists, own Koch Carbon which purchases the black "high-sulfur, high-carbon waste" petroleum coke stored by Detroit Bulk Storage owned by Noel Frye and John Fry, which uses an open storage method, creating an unsightly three-story high stockpile of their product covering an entire city block beside the Detroit River near the Ambassador Bridge"

"The Koch brothers, who challenge the science behind human activity causing climate change, sell petcoke overseas as fuel."

The second section is irrelevant to the Ambassador Bridge and should be put in a separate article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.138.35.25 (talk) 13:44, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

It's part of the immediate area, and is in my opinion relevant to the turmoil around the bridge owner. I've restored it, if you want to create a full article that is your prerogative, but should not be removed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notwillywanka (talk • contribs) 18:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Adding POV dispute. Their reasons for selling pet coke may or may not have anything to do with "the science behind human activity causing climate change". It would seem the only point to the restoration (instead of editing to a more NPOV would be to defame the Koch Brothers. A better way would be to not include the term "Koch Brothers" but maybe "Koch Industries".

These subsections are POV
 * "wealthy industrialist" - Clearly POV
 * "beyond regulations" - This would be for a judge to adjudicate and not WP
 * and identifying "The Koch brothers" - We do not know who made the decision at the company to use the stockpile.

What does this section even have to do with the bridge? There's a single sentence about obstruction of the view of the bridge, but it's otherwise irrelevant to the article. Even if it's "part of the immediate area," that doesn't have much to do with the bridge itself. -97.85.35.7 (talk) 07:18, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that if there's any impact of this to the area, it should be added to the article for that part of Detroit, not the bridge article itself. I.e. move the content after cleaning out the POV. AadaamS (talk) 14:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed the whole section as it's entirely irrelevant. -  Floydian  τ ¢  21:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Remove section (again?): this is a Coatrack section. I'm with 97.85.35.7 and Floydian on this: The petcoke thing has no apparent relationship to the bridge.  In the section, there is the vague nominal claim that some park used to have an "unobstructed" view of the bridge before the petcoke was there, but that's a pretty thin connection: It looks like this petcoke subject is simply someone's controversy in search of a Wikipedia article, and this article ended up "blessed" with it; this is classic Coatrack behavior, and should be removed unless someone demonstrates a closer connection soon. --Closeapple (talk) 21:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Notwillywanka, you have re-added that section when the consensus by editors on this talk page is that it does not belong in this article. Following this consensus, I am removing that section again. Do not re-add without discussing it here first please. Further, the statement about the view of the bridge from Assumption Park in Ontario is not supported by the cited source. AadaamS (talk) 22:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Width
What is the bridge's width? Funnyhat 03:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Four lanes. Two in each direction. Flibirigit 03:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

 * No, I mean, how wide is it in feet/meters? Funnyhat 01:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Counting the parts that are falling off on the Canadian side? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notwillywanka (talk • contribs) 23:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Expansion
This article is still pretty short, and doesn't cover much about the history or operations of the bridge. -- Beland 01:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Dimensions, stats, etc...
I managed to archive a copy of the Ambassador Bridge's website before they took down all their data due to security reasons. Should i post the information here? I have the dimensions and so on. Apparently, the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel told The Windsor Star that they would remove their information with the Ambassador Bridge, but they didn't. RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 01:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

suggest beefing up the history of the bridge part of the article
User F203 (talk) 23:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Should something be mentioned about how this is the only point in the lower 48 states where one can travel south from the US to Canada? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.27.9.20 (talk) 18:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

"Point" being Windsor-Detroit, I assume you mean. You can also drive south into Canada from Detroit through the tunnel a couple of miles away. By the way, the article says that the sidewalk was closed due to 9/11 security concerns. I'm pretty sure it was closed long before that because of suicide concerns. I lived in Windsor for 14 years and I am pretty sure it was closed then. I know I never saw anyone on it except bridge workers. Tim in Canada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.73.131.132 (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

How did the bridge come to be privately owned?
So how did the bridge come to be privately owned? The article does not say. One could infer a number of circumstances, but it is unlikely that the transaction that took it from public ownership to private ownership, some three decades or so, was an involuntary transaction. In other words, I would think we might infer that the public agency(ies) must have consented to sell the bridge since, it would appear, that the bridge was originally a public thoroughfare.

At any rate, I think the Wikipedia article would be greatly improved to have a WP:NPOV historical treatment of that chapter of the bridge's history. (and is sorely lacking without it). Cheers. N2e (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

 * The bridge was always privately owned. It was financed by a group of investors who formed the two holding companies on either side of the river. I agree that the article needs a history section though. I have two books requested through the Michigan eLibrary system to add such a section. They should be here within a week or so.  Imzadi 1979  →   21:17, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Here's a bit more detail. Funny to see Forbes arguing for socialism http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2012/01/12/why-one-rich-man-shouldnt-own-an-international-bridge/?partner=yahootix Greglocock (talk) 04:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Toll gate
It would be perhaps trivial, but useful, to indicate the arrangement of toll gates. Current Google Earth photography seems to suggest that there is no automobile toll gate on the Canadian end of the bridge, which suggests to me that tolls are paid on the US side for both directions of traffic. Can someone confirm this, and if this is the case, mention it in the article? GBC (talk) 14:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I can confirm that yes you pay the toll on the US side going either way. This happened after 9/11 when many people were refused entry into the US, had already paid the toll on entering from the Canadian side and felt they should not have to pay to use the bridge if the end result was not entering the US. It also helps the owner keep all funds on the US Side, not having to declare any revenues through the CTC and pay Canadian taxes. I do not have outside sources, just my own personal experience crossing the bridge, and conversations with employees.--UnQuébécois (talk) 00:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Forbes.com resource, with article's internal links included
99.181.131.215 (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Why One Rich Man Shouldn't Own An International Bridge 1/12/2012 @ 5:55PM by Joann Muller, Forbes staff writer; excerpt ...
 * Billionaire Bridge Owner's Greed Lands Him In Jail 1/12/2012
 * http://www.forbes.com/profile/manuel-moroun/
 * The Troll Under The Bridge by Stephane Fitch and Joann Muller, 11.15.04
 * |topnews|text|FRONTPAGE No joy in seeing Moroun jailed -- but valuable lessons on greed in Freep.com 11:21 AM, Jan. 12, 2012 by Stephen Henderson (editor)
 * Looks like his money has paid him freedom (my opinion, not encyclopedic in value): Fox @ Detroit]--UnQuébécois (talk) 00:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Media
In the media section, an inline hyperlink was pointing to a non existent page at History Channel, the "new" location for this is here, but no where in the page is the bridge mentioned. I do not remember that episode, I do not doubt that Ambassador is pictured, but the source/link does not represent that. I am unfamiliar with the IP added episode.

Monopoly / Tolls
I added actual stats as publicly provided. I added up to date tolls. I don't see why these edits were undone. Everything I added had citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MichiganCola (talk • contribs) 18:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Recent Edits by MichiganCola
Recents edits are very POV, and incorrect. Many of the "sources" are not reliable, and are not neutral. --Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  20:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you be more specific pls - Thus far things like new toll rates look like good update. Perhaps you could go over the edits one by one. What is not neutral? Things like "The bridge holds a monopoly on commercial truck traffic." was removed and replaced with more info, thus removing a POV? What sources are not reliable, thus far I see the removal of Government refs?Moxy (talk) 21:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Removed - holds a monopoly replaced with " bridge handles 60-70% of commercial truck traffic] to Canada"
 * Look like a positive edit that removed a POV

 * Added - "However, the Blue Water Bridge is an equally attractive route for shipping"
 * Not a problem..but not that relevant and can be removed

 * Added - "The Ambassador Bridge toll rate for cars is $4.75 in either CAD'
 * Looks like a good update with refs

 * Added - "However, the Public Bridge Operator's traffic data does not support this claim"
 * What is wrong with the views  from the Public Border Operators Association?

 * Added- "Toll Road News says; "Few toll bridges or tunnels in the US are as sparsely traveled as the Detroit area bridges and tunnel"
 * Whats wrong here? the ref?

 * Added- "The DIBC has plans to construct a second span, as it is more economical than upgrading the current span while still being open for traffic."
 * Whats wrong here? Does need a better ref

 * Added - "There is debate as to the actual cost to Michigan/US residents "
 * Do you disagree there is a debate or are the refs not good? Looks clear there is a debate.

So what are we to do?Moxy (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Have you looked at the refs? Or are you just seeing that their are refs?
 * The toll rates put in are incorrect. The bridge is 4.75$ US or Canadian, the tunnel is 4.50 in Detroit USD or CAD and 4.75 in Windsor USD or CAD, the way it was "worded" does not reflect this. (The tunnel tolls are irrelevant here in my opinion, but beside the case)
 * 'Toll road news' info is not relevant to the debate of international crossing, almost all the other toll bridges are commuter bridges in large metro areas in the states. It's also not a reliable third party source, needs to be independent of the subject.
 * Public Border Operators, is not third party verified, uses data provided by each bridge/tunnel/crossing owner, so who knows if the data is correct. - It's just raw data, the conclusions made are only that of the contributor.
 * The part on Blue Water Bridge being an attractive alternative is skewed, yes the distance factor is right, but the blue water bridge customs facilities were not built to handle the volume of commercial traffic, it was built for mostly car traffic, and is frequently backed up with Truck drivers going there, avoiding the road/bridge mess in Windsor/Detroit. (Also funny that it was built with the same type of
 * The DIBC has had "plans to build a second span" for decades, but has never been approved by the authorities on either side, only recently has tried to get approval, only to try and prevent an alternate crossing from taking place. The version in place about this is concise and accurate, and not sourced from you-tube.
 * 60-70% of commercial traffic to Canada, no that's not a monopoly, but it might no be accurate depending on the source, I've been looking to re-word, thought it had been referenced in the past as that. The Application for Presidential Permit shows 30% of truck commerce travels through the Detroit-Windsor area. The Ambassador Bridge holds a virtual monopoly of this traffic.
 * Reading through the "Application for Presidential Permit" and "Activities Expenditures" referenced in the added paragraph "The debate as to the actual cost", makes no mention of debate over the costs, they simply show the costs, as stated, and that the state of Michigan can use the 550 million from Canada to get 2.2 billion in matching highway funds from the US DOT. The 263 million is included in that 550 million calculation.
 * Need to look at the references to make sure that what is added is what is provided and not WP:SYNTHESIS.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  23:44, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

 * I support UnQ's reversion here (was about to do it myself), these edits add POV to the article when there is no detectable pre-existing POV that needs to be countered. They are essentially carrying on the existing owner's campaign to retain control of the crossing. Beyond just the self-serving language, the sources provided are the thinnest of all possible gruel. Tollroadnews looks to be one guy sitting in an apartment or suite typing up a blog, with paid advertising, regurgitating a report paid for by a potential advertiser - not anywhere close to what we would accept as anything other than a totally partisan and/or unreliable source. And references to Google Maps? Are you kidding me? I suggest that MichiganCola propose each change one by one here on the talk page. There are so many other issues, it will be exhauting to discuss them in one big sprawling debate. Franamax (talk) 00:13, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The only edits made by MichiganCola were to this article, I always assume good faith, but the edits make me question the intents of the account owner. (Trying to figure out what Cola would be, as Michigan "cola" (soda, or pop, or soft drink) would be Faygo®! )--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  00:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Here is more from Tollroadsnews . "The obsessive Moroun-bashing/new bridge boosting press corps..." written as part of the "news" article, yeah, that's an objective third-party source. :) Franamax (talk) 00:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

 * And to make things a bit more complicated, I've now removed the bit in the lede section about a truck monopoly, added here I think, in its entirety - it was sourced to an editorial, which is basically just one person's opinion. We need a more solid definition of monopoly than that. Franamax (talk) 04:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Funny! I just added it back in, and added two refs. The only way for almost all commercial truck to get across the Detroit river is the Ambassador Bridge. The big trucks can not use the tunnel, and the ferry does not carry enough traffic to make a dent. It's not a monopoly of all US Canadian Truck Traffic, but a virtual monopoly of Commercial truck traffic in Windsor/Detroit, which is 25% of all commerce between the two countries.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  04:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh yikes, did you actually just do that? You yourself are saying here a "virtual monopoly" but in the article you choose to just say "monopoly"? Please, you are making a synthesis - could you revert back to my version and we can discuss good wording? None of the 3 sources in the lede section - and to note, lede sections are usually unref'd, since the actual article has the sources - support that wording in any reliable way. Please reconsider, and let's only draw conclusions solidly supported by multiple and reliable sources. Franamax (talk) 04:44, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I'm not saying anything. The text was there, and was not mine, I was just adding support to the statement. The 30 or so trucks a day that take the ferry compared to the 8000 a day on the bridge do not compare. I use virtual as it is not an absolute monopoly (+99%), however the term monopoly applies none the less. AT&T had a monopoly on telephone service before the break-up, even though they did not own 100% of all the phone lines in the US, GTE had some markets, but they were a monopoly, and you could get MCI or another long distance carrier, you had to call in and use access codes etc. The only reason that the ferry is running is because hazardous materials can not go on the bridge. The options in Windsor/Detroit are The Ambassador Bridge, or the 5 ferry crossings a day? --Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎   10:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * So what about Port_of_Toronto?  In 2015, the port received 1.7 million tonnes of cargo, 36th-largest in Canada, cite, the wiki article.  The 25% is per vehicle traffic, only.  ChrisPikula 18:01, 11 February 2022 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.225.26.127 (talk)

 * Great to see more people involved. To be honest I cant tell one web site from the next for reliability here. (normally edit history articles that use books) so I defer to those that have more knowledge on the topic. Hope that the original contributor will see this.Moxy (talk) 15:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

With regards to the "monopoly" discussion, it is a very slippery slope to use that language. It is very much dependent on how narrow you want to make the market. Would you characterize Apple as having a monopoly on selling the iPhone? If you go read the Apple wiki, there isn't discussion of them having a monopoly on sales for the iPhone. The government mandated Environmental Impact Study for the DRIC includes the BWB in their traffic projections/impacts. If the BWB is being considered in this study, and it is in the same shipping lane, it should be counted. I linked to the Wiki explaining the duty free store, not sure what the dispute over that is about. The Jimmy Johns on my local street corner has a monopoly on selling subs at that exact location, yet I don't call it a monopoly. --MichiganCola (talk) 13:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

As for the BWB not having proper plaza capacity, not sure what you mean here. MDOT just spent hundreds of millions of dollars over the past 10 years upgrading the BWB plaza after building a second span in the 1990s.--MichiganCola (talk) 13:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

With regards to the Public Border Operators Association not being a reliable source for traffic information. Their numbers match Michigan Department of Transportation for the years available for both. It is unclear who would have better data, read their about us. I don't know/see a better alternative. I could be wrong, but the Environmental Impact Study also uses this data if I am not mistaken. PBOA data was also used by MDOT in projections for the Blue Water Bridge expansion as well. If you want to maintain there is no good source of traffic information, it is then impossible to quantify how much truck traffic goes across the bridge period, not exactly helpful for discussion then. --MichiganCola (talk) 13:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

To suggest the Toll Road News article is irrelevant, is to ignore the main claim the DRIC is needed because of projected higher traffic being grounds for another crossing. Traffic is significantly down according to the available data. No one has made the case traffic is up if you go back further than 3 years. So either the justification for the DRIC on traffic grounds needs to be removed, or it needs to be pointed out projected higher traffic is not a fact.--MichiganCola (talk) 13:55, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

With regards to the debate about cost, unsure of the path forward. References to articles which don't support the DRIC are considered POV/opinion/invalid, but paragraphs with clearly referenced facts showing cost of the bridge don't show grounds of debate and need to be removed?--MichiganCola (talk) 13:59, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Map
The current map is not that great. It shows more of Michigan (including the county divisions) than anything else. I put in a request for a new map.

Graphics_Lab/Map_workshop

External links modified
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update
Updated developments on the fate of the bridge and its proposed twin span/replacement span. Article should be updated to make note of this http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/09/ambassador_bridge_to_be_demoli.html http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/moroun-scores-long-awaited-canadian-approval-to-build-twin-span https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/9/6/16263618/ambassador-bridge-span-moroun SecretName101 (talk) 00:55, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Article info box sections that involve units
Yes I get it the bridge is owned by an American company, but the bridge crosses Canada and therefore it is preferred that the units be primarily metric so Canadians can be more benefited. Yes I also get it, old Canadians still use Canadian customary units (imperial system) but again today’s Canadians prefer metric as primary units on these articles, such as this one (Ambassador Bridge). MetricSupporter89 (talk) 21:07, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Oppose per WP:ENGVAR. Since the bridge is owned by an American company, it has a clear connection to the United States, so American English should be used. Whether it's good or not, that means imperial units. —C.Fred (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above.  Calidum   04:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose—built by American interests, owned by an American company, so thus customary units per MOS:TIES.  Imzadi 1979  →   01:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Support MOS:TIES applies to both countries, so it isn't decisive. WP:ENGVAR doesn't apply to units of measure. That leaves WP:RETAIN, so unless there's a consensus to change it can change. I support a change if there is a consensus to change. Michael Glass (talk) 09:10, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Put metric first
This is an international article so it needs metric first. MetricSupporter89 (talk) 00:41, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

User:Acroterion, please revert my edits now that I put Put metric first on the talk. MetricSupporter89 (talk) 00:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I meant please get my edits back, User:Acroterion MetricSupporter89 (talk) 00:49, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Since you blanked my message on your talkpage, I'll repeat myself here: "You need to open a discussion at Talk:Ambassador Bridge to obtain consensus, not just claim that one exists despite your edits being questioned by other editors. Please remember that Wikipedia isn't a platform for advocacy, and that you are not entitled to edit-war to promote the views expressed on your userpage." There are two parts - opening a discussion, which you've done twice now, and obtaining a consensus, which you have not. Please resist the urge to use Wikipedia as a platform for advocacy.  Acroterion   (talk)   00:51, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Image gallery
Given the image use policy, what specific purpose is served by the image gallery? Someone has put it back twice now, claiming that it "does add to the article", but without indicating how they think it does that. 46.208.152.52 (talk) 20:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * As a compromise, I've moved two of the images from the gallery into the body of the article. That said, the article is under-illustrated now, so the photos in the gallery rectified that issue. That's the value that the gallery added to the article.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:37, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * If you think the article needs more images, add more images. You haven't explained why you wanted them in a gallery section. Nor have you explained why you deleted the content I added. I am reporting you now for breaking the three revert rule. 46.208.152.52 (talk) 20:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * A gallery is not encouraged nor discouraged under our guidelines. Sometimes it's best to keep images in a gallery because to move all of them into the text would crowd out the prose at its current length.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:45, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * In articles that have several images, they are typically placed individually near the relevant text (see WP:MOSIMAGES). Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the below paragraphs or moved to Wikimedia Commons. Generally, a gallery should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text.. Three revert rule violation now reported 46.208.152.52 (talk) 20:55, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think we've already reached a compromise on the images, have we not? Two have been moved up, and gallery containing the rest is gone? Any of the rest could still be moved up, could they not? Since your issue with the gallery, and not the specific images, that concern is satisfied, right? Regarding the stub articles on the two holding companies, as another editor and I have noted, they are not independently notable separate from the bridge, so we don't need articles on them to say what this bridge article already says.  Imzadi 1979  →   21:05, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I've had a go at copyediting the images so they look reasonable on a large monitor, and done a few other tweaks, using Dartford Crossing and Hyde Park, London (both GAs) as a basic starting point. I'm not a fan of galleries I'm afraid, if they're your "thing", then Commons is thataway. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  11:33, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

In the News, and setting narrative
So this article has information that is being parroted by news orgs, that it controls 25% of trade traffic between the US and Canada. The citation, 34, is a 404. This is weird, as the closest I've found online for that 25% citation is as a percentage of vehicle trade traffic. Not include port traffic. The Port_of_Toronto deals with 1.7 Million tonnes a year as per the wiki article. A Cargo ship can have 24k containers, and this road deal with like ~8k trucks per day. https://www.ezbordercrossing.com/list-of-border-crossings/michigan/ambassador-bridge/ So, uh, why is wikipedia influencing the narrative like this? ChrisPikula 18:17, 11 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.225.26.127 (talk)

 * Other piece of information stands that 300 millions dollars a day (265 millions euros) of goods are exchanged each day (Le Monde), and 300 millions dollars is also the value given by RFI (RFI).
 * US-Canada road trade reach 48,4 billions dollars a year in 2012 (Transport Routier). That makes  million a working day.
 * This is much more than the 10 millions dollars the US gave to block the Canada (Le Devoir).

 * According to BTS, with 132 billion dollars in 2019, ( million a working day), Detroit Michigan is a land port which is among Top 10 U.S. International Trade Gateways in 2019 by value of shipments.

 * When compared to Detroit, Michigan, USA,
 * International Land Trade via Detroit, Michigan, by Mode: 101 188 millions dollars for trucks in 2008 ( % (BTS  ))
 * Incoming Full and Empty Container Crossings via Detroit, Michigan, 2008: 1482 thousand via truck, 210 thousand Via rail
 * In 2020, 1 338 983 truck containers crossed the U.S.-Canadian Border Land-Freight Gateways in Detroit Michigan, which make it thefirst gateway when compared to others cities or rail.
 * Also:
 * $501 billion CDN   —   Total Canada-U.S. trade (2010)
 * More than $1 billion CDN   —   Amount of daily Canada-U.S. trade (2010)
 * Almost $500 million US   —  The amount of trade that passes daily along the Ambassador Bridge between Windsor, Ont. and Detroit, the busiest border crossing in North America (same source)
 * 28,814   —   Number of trucks that cross the border daily (2010)
 * 140,728   —  Number of cars and other vehicles that cross the border daily (2010)
 * When compared to Canada:
 * Windsor-Ambassador Bridge in Ontario:
 * 2.57 Two-way traffic volume in million movements, Crossings for Trucks, in 2011 (Two-way traffic volumes were estimated by doubling one-way flows northbound into Canada.)
 * 24.4% of Border Crossings for Trucks in 2011.
 * 3.78 Two-way traffic volume in million movements, crossing for Cars/Other Vehicles, in 2011 (same source)
 * 6.8% of Border Crossings for Cars/Other Vehicles in 2011.

 * Compared to the Port de Chicago, there are 15 428 892 cargo tonnes in the Chicago port.

 * The dot provides those numbers for US Canada border in 2021:
 * Trucks: 30840 million value % (first)
 * Pipeline: 9785 million value % (second)
 * Rail: 8909 million value % (third)
 * Other: 4558 million value % (fourth)
 * Air: 3387 million value % (fifth)
 * Vessel: 3068 million value % (sixth out of seven)

 * Pipeline: 16.613399 million metric tonnes % (first)
 * Vessel: 7.719379 million metric tonnes % (second)
 * Rail: 6.367102 million metric tonnes % (third)
 * Trucks: 4.520342 million metric tonnes % (fourth)
 * Air: 0.017514 million metric tonnes % (fifth)
 * FTZ: 0.004019 million metric tonnes % (sixth out of seven)
 * Given that I've got basically no good clue on how to edit Wikipedia, could you update citations 33 & 34, as they deal with the 25% figure on the page, but currently 404? Chris Pikula 21:15, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's a reliable source using statistics from the U.S. and Canadian Government. They claim 20%.BNN Bloomberg
 * Keep in mind that very little trade between the US and Canada is through ports. In any case, what exactly are you looking to change? -  Floydian  τ ¢ 02:37, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Official canadian statistic (Transport Canada) gives for Border Crossings for Trucks in 2011:
 * Table RO19: Twenty Largest Border Crossings for Trucks, 2007 – 2011
 * 24.4% for Windsor-Ambassador Bridge
 * 14.4% for Sarnia -Blue Water Bridge
 * 11.4% for Fort Erie - Peace Bridge
 * 7.0% for Pacific Highway/ Douglas candian british columbia.
 * 6.6% for Niagara Falls - Queenston Bridge
 * That makes more than 50% in Ontario! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.155.75 (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

More Container Crossings Ambassador Bridge than trucks in Eurotunnel trains?
It looks like:
 * in 2008, there 1482 thousand Incoming Full and Empty Container Crossings via truck via Detroit, Michigan
 * in 2007, 1 414 700 trucks were transported in Eurotunnel trains (source: Insee Nord-Pas-de-Calais - Bilan socio-économique 2007)

This makes Ambassador Bridge comparable to Eurotunnel? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.155.75 (talk) 12:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Compared to Eurotunnel:
 * euro-tunnel transports 26% of the fright between GB/UK vs EU/Europe with 5000 trucks a day
 * euro-tunnel transports 25% of UK vs mainland-Europe exchanges, that is 1,6 million heavy-good-vehicles a year
 * euro-tunnel transports 1,6 million heavy-good-vehicles a year in 2016  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.155.75 (talk) 13:01, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Tax free fuel
The article states that tax free fuel is sold by the owners of the bridge, but it should also mention where this exactly takes place, i.e. is there a gas station located in no mans land or why it is otherwise tax free. --217.149.172.70 (talk) 22:49, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Per the website, it appears that fuel is sold at the duty frees on both sides of the bridge: in Detroit and in Windsor. While diesel is available on both sides of the Detroit River, it seems regular and premium are only available on the American side. Paris1127 (talk) 02:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ambassador Bridge


text: Category:Middle schools in Nova Scotia

title: Category:Middle schools in Nova Scotia


text:
User:Uncertain

I have just started editing Wikipedia, although I have used it for some years. I teach Sociology in the Spanish University -I think you can hear it easily in my accent.

My first editing has been related with the article on Opus Dei, that I consider a good example of a very biased text that really looks NPOV.

I hope I can be useful for the Wiki community. Greetings to all the Wikis!

--Uncertain 17:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User:Uncertain


text:
Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/BigDaddy777/Workshop

IP?
I would love to see the results of that Ip check. AM I looking in the wrong spot. People have repeatedly directed me here and have told me that this PROVES that BD is a sockpuppet. I don't see that here. It just suspected and that there was an IP check. Just wnat to know what happened. Thanks.Gator1 17:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * They are on this page, under "Sockpuppets of BigDaddy777". I'll cut and paste for clarity:  Suspected sockpuppets include User:Barneygumble User:LEONARD WATSON User:Paganviking User:64.154.26.251 User:67.124.200.240 and User:216.119.139.77 · Katefan0(scribble) 17:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Kate. I saw that, but those are SUSPECTED puppets. I'm looking for the evidence that the IP check confirmed that they were IN FACT sockpuppets. Those aren't the same things? Do you know where I can find this? Or are you saying that the IP check did IN FACT confirm that those suspected puppets were real? Why the use of the word "suspected" then. This is all very unclear. Thanks fro your help.Gator1 17:27, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem, sorry I couldn't be of more help. My own experience with sockpuppet checks is very limited (none, really), so I don't know how definitive these are considered. My feeling from being around here for a while is though they're labeled suspected, they're generally accepted as pretty much accurate, particularly if you use contributions histories to substantiate. Sorta like a DNA test. Maybe Fred can speak to this when he sees it. · Katefan0(scribble) 17:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think they're suspected because they're all IPs that have been used to login to his account. I highly doubt that barneygumble is BigDaddy, as they edit vastly different articles, so maybe its a friend who turned him on to wikipedia or confusion through dynamic ips. --kizzle 17:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

There was a check of which accounts used the ip. The possibility exists that some other person entirely also used the ip. Fred Bauder 18:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Soooo is BD a sockpuppeteer or not. Which of thos suspected IPs and users were lnked with him? That's all I need to be satisfied here.

 * All Fred can make a determination on at this point is the IP/account relationships, whether or not someone actually is a sockpuppet is a judgment call which takes a while. From my own estimation, I think barneygumble just shared a computer once or is confused through dynamic ips, however, I'd be willing to bet that 64 and 67 are sockpuppets (which make several comments on the Ann Coulter page quite humorous). --kizzle 19:34, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * What is bugging me here is that to date, neither Fred nor David Gerard have spelled out, in complete sentences, something like "At least one IP address has been used at times by both BigDaddy and Barney Gumble." No matter what I say, I can't seem to get anyone to make such a clarification.  I don't think anyone understands what kind of clarification I'm looking for.  I would like to propose that in the future the results of sockpuppet checks be reported in a standard format that involves complete sentences to avoid this kind of confusion. Jdavidb (talk) 17:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * This is why refusing to log in, while 'on the road', or whereever, is harmful for establishing mutual accountability among editors. And it's that accountability which is sorely lacking in this RfA subject's case. -- RyanFreisling @ 18:10, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah THAT'S what's lacking, he needs even MORE people yelling at him...that's what's missing....ok. LOLGator1 18:42, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * No, he needs to shape up or ship out. That's why we're in RfA. Why are you here? -- RyanFreisling @ 22:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

So he's gonna get shipped out now huh? Once again, I though the RFC wasn't to punish. I guess things changed....or maybe there were always the same after all. "Why are you here?" You're trying to pick a fight with me and I'm not going to rise to the bait. See some of the policies you've been shoving down BD's throat. You're one of the most aggressive users I've seen here and I want nothing to do with it, thank you very much. Play some more football to get that aggression out. It helped me (also helped me to destroy my knees...but it was worth it). Don't get so upset either. We all know you're gonna win this one.Gator1 00:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * People who make statements like "it's that it's not possible to work 'within consensus'" and imply that they are not going to work within it do inneed to shape up or ship out. I much prefer the shape up option. Jdavidb (talk) 17:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * RFC's aren't meant to punish anyone. They're also not meant to be ignored. And if we truly had won, BigDaddy would have learned to contribute civily and bring balance to Wikipedia, rather than threaten his co-editors and write articles on the liberal cabal. --kizzle 01:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Not picking a fight. The RfA is intended to address what is seen by some as utterly unacceptable conduct. The RfC was an attempt to get comments (which BD refused to provide). And bans (shipping out) are a frequent result of egregious cases like this. That's the point I was making. And most of all, if you claim you don't want any part of it, don't impugn my name as you did on BD's talk page here - especially when it touches on a topic that doesn't involve me:

 * "Tell that to Ryan. Where's HER RFC? Stop threatening people, it's beneath you. He can blank his ENTIRE talk page if he wants to, there's no rule about that."Gator1 12:36, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Leave me out of your rants and I'll leave you alone in kind. Behave respectfully and you will be met with equal respect. Avoid attacking others verbally and you will avoid getting into fights. -- RyanFreisling @ 02:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Well If I'm being SO disrespectful, then I guess an RFC is the only option. Allright allright, you win Ryan. I can't fight with you after seeing your picture on your talk page. Arguing with good looking people just takes the winds out my sails. I give up. That's why I don't posty my picture. If people saw my ugly mug, they'd never leave me alone. I'll stop ranting. Uncle.Gator1 12:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * seriously, is this sockpuppet thing some kind of reenactment of the McCarthy hearings to make a political point? Because I'm pretty sure none of the accused were defending him. Coulter was that's true but we did agree on that point in the article. 67124etc 05:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Evidence that "Viper Daimao," 64.154.26.251, 216.119.139.73, 216.119.139.5, 67.124.200.240 and "67124etc" are sockpuppets of BD777
(New edit)Since my good faith in absolving myself of these allegations has been rewarded with illogical accusations and increasing hostility I have offered what I consider, irrefutable evidence that I am innocent of these charges. Please see the bottom of this page. --Viper Daimao 02:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll begin by addressing "Viper's" claim (made on this page), which sets up a false choice:

 * " So either we are all seperate people as we and others claim, or BD777 actually has 2,300 or so sockpuppets."

 * No, actually: there are some other options.

 * Here's one: BD777, looking for a way out of the "dynamic user" issue without being tagged for sockpuppeting, creates "Viper Daimao," a sockpuppet who feigns bewilderment and innocence, then claims to work for "internal IT" at Halliburton, yet seems to have no knowledge of how IP addresses work (as if blocking BD777's IP would somehow block the entirety of Halliburton from editing Wikipedia).

 * But BD777 needs to keep the "innocent Viper" ruse going, so he goes out of his way on his User Page to tell us "I dont quite have a hang on all the wiki tags and formats, and I havent really contributed much, just maybe a question here or there on a talk page." He also claims the handful of non-political edits in the fiery history of 64.154.26.251 belong to him.

 * My memory and JDavidB's contribution to this workshop confirm that there was no heated disputes that 64.154.26.251 got into before last weekend. Or maybe there was a little friction two weekends before that on the Monicasdude RFC. 216.119.139.22 05:52, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * May I direct you here? It rather contradicts your memory.  Do you think it's just a coincidence that this particular "heated dispute" was between 64.154.26.251 and Kizzle(who has borne the wrath of BD777 ad nauseam), and contains an endorsement of Gator1, to whom BD777 has lovingly entrusted reverting his Talk page until this Friday, when BD777 returns from his, ahem, "business trip."  Funny, it seems like he never left.  Your attempt to curry favor with JDavidB is reminiscent of BD777's 100+ "I just want to honor Jimmy Wales" ruses.  But I'm sure that's just a coincidence, too.  Good night. Eleemosynary 06:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * That's how I first got involved, seeing Kizzle's name attached to accusations of incivility. I should have remembered that, but I didn't.  I guess I didn't think of it because that was when I knew little about the content of the larger dispute happening (I still don't know much) and was instead making a prima facia objection to it.  By that I mean giving a reason to deny hearing the case in the first place because of purported obvious faults in its mode of presentation, which in this case was my recollection of the presenter's (Kizzle's) own record of incivility.  So I still don't see how you can characterize 64.154.26.251 as having a "fiery history".

 * I'll let the arbitrators decide it now. Eleemosynary 01:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * As for endorsing Gator1, what else was I going to do? Study the case and write my own outside view?  I already did my good deed in assisting the Monicasdude case, I really didn't have time for something like that again.

 * See above. Eleemosynary 01:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * And following your bizarre conspiracy theory, if I were Big Daddy, why would I want to "curry favor" with someone whom I had just banished from my talk page? Big Daddy obviously feels he can pick and choose among his supporters.  You should be well aware of Big Daddy's acrimony, because you even linked to the arguments between Big Daddy and JDavidB yourself as "evidence" that he might be prone to use the word "trifecta".

 * See above. Eleemosynary 01:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Elee, every time one of your ridiculous charges are disputed you pass over it (without apology) and come up with two more. I think it's put up or shut up time.  Are you willing to accept these user's (to me, overly generous) offers of confirmation and apologize if they are proven to be distinct individuals? 216.119.139.40 16:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Dismissal of evidence as "ridiculous," gross exaggerations, false offers of comity, and requests for apologies are all traits of BD777, and his sockpuppets. Thanks for the supporting evidence. Eleemosynary 01:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Are we to believe it's just a coincidence that a user who claims to post so infrequently, and says he really isn't that skilled on Wikipedia, would suddenly appear on the administrator's noticeboard less than two hours after the block was issued, and carry on like this: ?

 * Uh, Elee, when your account is blocked you get a notice about administrative action when you try to edit. Then, all he had to do was look at the edit history of 64.154.26.251 and follow the link.  By the way it wasn't two hours after the block was issued, it was about two hours after the block ended. 216.119.139.22 05:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, point me toward that evidence, please. You seem to have a very good, almost first-person memory of it.  Do you think it's a concidence that this particular user, who claims to have only edited a handful of times in his long experience browsing Wikipedia, just happened to have an edit to make that particular day, only to find his account blocked?Eleemosynary 05:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I suggest BD777 does this to create a much less "fiery" version of himself (an "aw shucks" sockpuppet, if you will). BD777, now creates a new account Viper Daimao and sends his sockpuppet at 64.154.26.251 a "hey, you have my IP address" message in order to establish credibility.  But he goes too far:  "Hey, you have my IP address. Do you work at the same company and location I work at? In houston, off of Bellaire blvd?"  It's a transparent ruse, with the subtext of… "hey, I'll write all this overwhelming info on your page, so no one will suspect we're sockpuppets."

 * I doubt if anyone's following this subject as closely as you are. 216.119.139.22 05:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Certainly BD777 should hope not. Eleemosynary 05:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * On "Viper's" Talk Page, he then tells us that "his IP address at work is shared by a few people," gilding the lily to build up an "evidence pile" in anticipation of investigation. He does the same thing again on sockpuppet 67124etc's Talk Page, repeating the same talking points, but this time adopting "yall" [sic], perhaps to better disguise "Viper" as a Houston native.

 * Good grief, wasn't it the admin fvw who established the server was based in Houston on the same 3RR board you just linked to? Is the same admin who blocked the two ip addresses and Big Daddy on charges of sockpuppeting in on the conspiracy too? 216.119.139.22 05:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Nice try, but you're trying to misdirect again. fvw did indeed establish the the server was based in Houston.  And I suggest BD777 wanted his new sockpuppet, Viper, to reflect that.  Nobody's suggesting BD777 is not a sophisticated troll.  And fvw's action have been completely honorable and above-board, in any case.  One more thing:  a conspiracy is exactly what I'm not suggesting.  BD777's actions, sockpuppets, etc. are the work of him alone.Eleemosynary 05:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * BD777, under the sockpuppet cover of "67124etc" then sends "Viper" a message of commiseration. In doing so, BD777 shows his hand: the charges are "baseless" and BD777 has "a lot of enemies."  We've heard this from BD777 before.  "67124etc" later issues "Viper" another commiseration message set out to establish that 1) He is in California (and not, say, Houston), and, of course, that BD777 is wrongly accused.    Quite a lot of advocacy from such "impartial" users, wouldn't you say?  This little colloquy, by the way, is a Must Read:

 * Maybe they all just don't want to be blocked and sympathize with each other for having to endure the circus you have helped set up. 216.119.139.22 05:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * That's certainly the impression BD777 and--I'm sure, quite coincidentally, you--are trying to give. It's rather flimsy, though. --Eleemosynary 06:49, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 06:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * "Viper," on this very evidence page, uses the same diversionary tactic "64.154.26.251" does when he offers to take part in a Yahoo chat (which would establish nothing); namely, throwing up "interference chatter" to distract from the issue at hand. "Viper" uses the "whois search" as a means to prove… well, nothing again.  Another bit of "chatter" is the "Google Search" gambit, as if finding "Viper Daimao" in a Google search is some sort of proof that he's used the name "for many years now."  He might have well picked the monogram "Abraham Lincoln"; that has a lot of Google returns, too.  As for his claims to having used Occam's Razor to argue his case, not only has he not done that, but that's just the sort of hyperbole we've seen countless times from BD777.

 * Where does this lead us? Well, right here, in the Workshop.  Going by timestamp, one can almost trace BD777's frustration with these allegations, via the escalation of invective in his sockpuppets.

 * In no time at all, BD777 goes from this (under cover of 216.119.139.22) to this, (under cover of 67124etc). And it's the same playbook BD777 has continued to use through over a month of bullying and abuse: projection, accusations of slurs, charges of not behaving like an adult, dodging the issues, etc.  The sockpuppets are not as fierce as their owner, but their tactics are the same.

 * Lastly, I'd like to quote BD777 himself:

 * "Don't try to block me. Be reasonable and accountable in your reporting as I have a hundred IP's to choose from.".

--Eleemosynary 08:07, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Instead of boring us with tales of how the "cover up" is so painful for you to watch, couldn't you at least wait until a neutral party accepts Viper's (what I feel is a) much too generous offer to verify his identity? 216.119.139.22 05:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * It's not at all painful for me to watch; it's instructional. I doubt I'm boring anyone; certainly, you stuck around till the end of my evidence.  And as far as a "neutral party" coming to the fore in order to "verify" Viper's "identity," where do think BD777 will place that sockpuppet.  Kansas?  Guam?  The Galapagos?  Only time will tell.  Eleemosynary 05:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * ok now you're just being silly. Yeah where ever shall we find a neutral 3rd party in the middle of an arbitration hearing. Your "evidence" up there simply can't be the work of someone who is taking this process seriously. Are YOU actually BigDaddy? I notice your comment-editing-domination of your talk page like Jdavidb described of BigDaddy, your copious use of personal attacks, your appearance on the same pages as BigDaddy, let's not forget your own in-depth descriptions of strategies involving sockpuppets with different tones and styles, not to mention suggestions for proper timing . I see from your edit history that you leapt into sophisticated revert wars from day one. Seriously, all your have to contribute is wisecracks, innuendo, and "scare quotes". Adults are devoting their free time here to hearing this out, and you apparently came to play games. How deep does your little conspiracy run? 67124etc 06:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Now, what is it they say about projection? Eleemosynary 06:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Now this is too much to be a coincidence. Wisecrack, innuendo, and scare-quotes, all rolled into one, right after I said it. Had to be intentional. Plus some pretty major irony, perhaps a veiled admission? I don't believe this person is being serious. 67124etc 06:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Trolling this page is extremely bad form. -- RyanFreisling @ 06:48, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi sorry if you misinterpret my arguments as trolling, that is not my intent. I'm trying to dispute the motives, evidence, logic, and common sense of someone calling me a sockpuppet. But yes that's the word that sums up what I'm trying to say about Eleemosynary's accusations, trolling. thank you. That would have been shorter to say I do admit. I'd also like to add the major 3rr violations Eleemosynary has committed as evidence of overzealousness; in one four hour period:            . that was Aug 22. Similar fireworks occured the previous day, and the day before. until... the user first signed up. I suspect there was more before that. I didn't even know what "rv" meant when I first started editing here. Actually, what is going on with this person and the Cindy Sheehan article? Anyway, has Eleemosynary calmed down since then? No here is two days ago:  which brings us to today. This aggressive revert-warrior is the only person seriously calling us sockpuppets. Perhaps he/she sincerely believes it, but is obviously way out of control. 67124etc 08:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * "Accuse the accuser" and "blame the messenger" (instead of providing counterevidence) is another BD777 diversionary tactic. Thanks for the supporting evidence. Eleemosynary 01:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * These explinations of how we are all sock puppets seem to grow increasingly intricate and ridiculous. Like I've said, the IP in question it part of a proxy that I use at work. At first I thought it might have been just for the building, but upon a google search I saw that it was a much wider area. I have offered to do anything to help clear this up, but all the evidence I bring is dismissed out of hand by Eleem, which leads me to believe there is nothing I can do to convince Eleem. I am still at home this morning, but I dont believe I will be able to edit anything at work. I would like to point out that most of those you are heaping this claim on are banned from editing, and therefore can say nothing in their defense here. You can see my IP that I'm using now belongs in Houston, that this proves "nothing" according to Eleem, is surprising. I found this whole discussion when I found the ban page that lead me to make that first post saying I would sign up a new account to try to clear this up. That is when I signed up and tied to make my page but I was blocked at work so I put it all on my talk page. As I was at work and blocked from contributing to any discussion I put the link to the google search on it as my only recourse at the time. I would also like to point out that from the very begining I have been the first to accuse myself. I came on this page to try to clear this up and then Eleem added me to the list of those accused and wove me into these charges. --Viper Daimao 12:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * See above (re: letting the arbitrators decide). Eleemosynary 01:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Your (increasingly ridiculous in light of the testimony here) accusations are premised on a slur: that Nobody would share enough of Big Daddy's opinions on the editing at Wikipedia to ever want to support him, because they're so off the wall.  It also assumes that consensuses are built solely on the number of participants who agree with a particular editing decision, rather than the weight of evidence and the soundness of the reasoning employed.  216.119.139.5 02:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That's not what Eleemo said. He said that although some of the behavior may differ, there is strong evidence (most notably, BD's own words and the timing of the sock appearances) to suggest BD used socks on numerous occasions. The thesis of your post is an outright dismissal of Eleemo's central point by calling it ridiculous - a tactic often used by BD to avoid actual reasoning to build consensus. You shuld not be surprised that some remain doubtful. -- RyanFreisling @ 03:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * All right then, come, come, let us reason together. The thesis of my post concerns Elee's slur (which you seem to share in making) and his faulty analysis of the source consensus.  The growing ridiculousness was a parenthetical comment.  It was based on the willingness of the accused persons from all parts of the country to physically verify their individuality as well as my observing that those auditing the dispute, through different modes of reasoning all arrive at the same conclusion.  I had something to say about "BD's own words" on the Ann Coulter talk page, but Guettarda erased them, despite the fact that the dispute was disrupting the producution of the article and should be considered relevant.  I will rehearse them again here, if it becomes necessary. 216.119.139.34 04:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * There has been no slur made here. Funny - BD also makes that exact same, unwarranted accusation of 'slurs' upon those who dare feed his trolling. This is not a slur - this is an honest effort to establish to the extent possible whether BD is engaging, as he himself threatened, in sockpuppetry. -- RyanFreisling @ 04:09, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * On the contrary. Elee announced his suspicions of Big Daddy "Creat[ing] allies...in order to build a false consensus".  That is the narrow definition of sockpuppetry.  Big Daddy only threatened to get around blocks by using anonymous accounts, which, though it may be a violation of rules, is only sockpuppetry in a broad sense. 216.119.139.34 04:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * So, to return to the actual point of my post - how is this process a slur? It's not.-- RyanFreisling @ 04:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Uh, Ryan, I was talking about Elee's accusations made throughout the wiki. I consider those quite distinct from Fred Bauder's direction of this part of the inquiry which so far has seemed reasonable. 216.119.139.22 05:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Either way, the allegations and attempt to prove whether BD is indeed responsible for sockpuppetry are neither slurs, nor ridiculous. Instead of invective which detracts from the wikipedia, let's concentrate on civilly discussing the RfA... -- RyanFreisling @ 05:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree. The evidence suggests to me that in Elee's case, his contributions to the suit are growing ridiculous, and are accompanied, even in this workshop, with implied slurs. 216.119.139.22 05:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * And I respectfully disagree with your view that 'his contributions to the suit are growing ridiculous' and that they contain 'implied slurs'. You're welcome to your opinion, but your attributions are counter to the point of why we're here - reviewing evidence. His evidence is cited and while you're free to disagree with it, calling it 'ridiculous' is an attempt to discount the evidence without considering it - directly counter to the reason we are all spending time here - instead of improving the encyclopedia. That is the real reason we are here - not to attack 'reputations' or avenge imagined slights. --RyanFreisling @ 05:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I stand by my reasons for calling his accusations increasingly ridiculous. 216.119.139.22 05:52, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The appropriate google search is this or this, since the user said I almost always sign any edits ViperDaimao. There are no edits signed "ViperDaimao" or "Viper Daimao" in Wikipedia, according to Google.  Guettarda 02:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Those google searches dont work for me. However I have always said which pages I edited. Namely Talk:The_Dead_Zone and Talk:Newt_Gingrich. You can see me sign my edits at the bottom of both pages. I would simply ask what action I can take to prove I am not a sock puppet. Name it, and I will do it.--Viper Daimao 02:36, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * These edits post-date the block. They aren't terribly convincing.  Guettarda 02:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * do they? I thought the block started at like 20:00 Oct 3, i.e. 3-4 hours after that. Else he couldn't have posted as the block lasted into Oct 4. Maybe you mean the accusation. 67124etc 03:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC) p.s. just how convincing is the BigDaddy-the-machiavellian-schizophrenic-evil-genius argument while you're commenting?
 * OK, I went back through the records and found some more edits I had made. Talk:List_of_Battlestar_Galactica_%282003%29_episodes, Talk:History_of_United_States_imperialism, and Talk:Christopher_Walken. The Christopher Walken one I only signed Viper. It should also be noted that almost all of my edits have been to talk pages. Except for a grammtical error or two that Ive changed, and on the dead zone book page where I took out what I thought was a POV addition that didnt belong and noted my reasoning on the talk page that I linked to above. Again I ask, what do you ask me to do to prove I am not a sock puppet?--Viper Daimao 03:12, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Upon further inspection, the edit to the talk page of Christopher Walken is dated Aug 12th. Big Daddy's first edit is dated Sept 1st. Therefore, if anything, BigDaddy is my sockpuppet. Though in all honesty, I've never been clear how BigDaddy is connected to the proxy IP address I've used at work that is also used by 2,300 or so others, 64.154.26.251.--Viper Daimao 03:59, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Please, we're not retarded. Take a look at your edit history here... you don't need google searches or anything.  It's quite amazing that the first thing you do at Wikipedia is make one outside edit, a few edits to your user page, then you head straight for BigDaddy's RfA, of whom I'm assuming you've never worked with.  What other accounts do you use that can be verified? --kizzle 17:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * he came here after I directed him here . I assume he found me from the 3rr noticeboard, which I assume he was directed to by the block itself. 67124etc 18:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, I am going to post part of what I posted on my talk page. go there to read the whole thing.
 * I do believe I have figured out a way to at least prove I am who I say I am. Since no one answered my question of what I need to do to prove myself, I have devised one myself. If you look at the google search for "Viper Daimao" you'll that is has somewhat of a presence on the internet. The EZboard profile for Viper Daimao lists my name as "Chris Bahr", and a member since Jan 11, 2001. If you look at my profile on the nuklearpower.com forums you'll see it also says that Viper Daimao is Chris Bahr. In a minute here, I'll just take a picture of my photo ID (with the personal info blacked out of course) and that should prove that I am well, myself. I mean, if a photo ID isnt good enough for you, what is? I could message you, I could write you a you a letter? I could call you on the telephone. I could send you an email from my work address? Come on, I'm putting out ideas here, while everyone else seems content to weave intricate plots and multiple personalities based on the fact that one of my IP's that is shared by thousands of people, matched another guy's IP that maybe matched BigDaddy's (I'm not even sure about that last part). Ok, I've uploaded the file to my webspace from my old college. You can find it here. If that doesnt prove I'm me and not someone else, at least give me a falsifiable test to take and stop merely weaving together new stories to try to take into account the increasing preponderance of evidence that says I am not a sockpuppet.--Viper Daimao 02:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Honestly
I don't care if BD is using sockpuppets or not. I think what's more important is his behavior no matter what name he is using to post. There is ample evidence of his bad behavior using BD as his login name. We don't need anything else. --Woohookitty 02:32, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Move for a Temporary Injunction
1) has, especially since this arbitration process began, violated Wikipedia guidelines repeatedly by altering or removing comments he considers to be critical. Now, he has even created a "banned" list of people that he instantly removes all comments from. I move that a temporary injunction be filed to stop him from altering or removing comments on his talk page. What he does violates the spirit of Wikipedia and it defeats any attempts at reconciliation. What he labels as "stalking" are generally genuine attempts to help. He's now calling for a truce, but I'd argue that we need to have an injunction just in case he attempts this again. We've been down the "improvement" road before and it barely lasted a couple of days.--Woohookitty 08:01, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment by Arbitrators:

 * Comment by parties:
 * Frankly I don't much care if he removes comments. I do, however, think it's bad form and should be considered here as part of an overall pattern of behavior.  Altering comments is clearly unacceptable, and he has done that after an admin warning.  So, I would support an injuction for the latter. Derex @ 17:07, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I whole-heartedly support this move for a temporary injunction. In fact I asked for one in my opening statement. . Since then BigDaddy's behavior has degraded to the point that he thinks nothing of removing other's comments . He even attacked JDavidB who recently bent over backwards to try and help him. . Right before his offer of "truce" where he can't help but make a snide remark, He rants at Derex. . Then he went after WooHooKitty.  We've been through this whole "improvement" sham before,, the fact of the matter is, this user doesn't want a "truce", he wants a license to flame. And then he wants us to laugh it off as "just a joke", well I'm not laughing, and BigDaddy should not be allowed to continue using Wikipedia as his own personal playground. - Mr. Tibbs 18:22, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment by others:


text:
Talk:C&C Music Factory

Why bother having a link to David Cole if it simply redirects to C & C Music Factory? Isn't that a bit redundant?

Maybe one day he'll have his own page, but it's just not today --x1987x 02:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Air Force Cadet
Anything about this? http://www.transbuddha.com/index.php/buddha/everybody-dance-now/

Meningitis as cause of death?
I was under the impression that David Cole's cryptococcal meningitis was an opportunistic AIDS infection. This reminds me of all the obituaries in the eighties that would list pneumonia or cancer as the cause of death, rather than even mention AIDS. It's 2006, is there really a need to keep doing this kind of thing?

A Deeper Love
The version released under Clivilles and Cole in 1990 or 91 feautured vocals by Deborah Cooper. The version with vocals by Aretha Franklin was released under her name in 1993. Both songs were produced, mixed and remixed by Clivilles and Cole (the single for the Aretha Franklin version alaso featured a relatively plain mix by David Morales)

Where the hell is Freedom Williams?
How can you write anything about C&C without mentioning Freedom? WTF?

title: Talk:C&C Music Factory