text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Doug Massey

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Neutralitytalk 13:59, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Doug Massey
Founder of the non-notable Vermont Group of Diplomacy (game) players, which is listed above. -- Kjkolb 00:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom.    Dl yo ns 493   Ta lk   05:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as nn-bio. Jkelly 07:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 06:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete or Speedy what's next, an article for every D&D Dungeon Master? Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 10:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - utterly nn CLW 11:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - indeed. Dottore So 20:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. JDPR and the Vermont Group are notable within the Diplomacy (game) community, but not to the general public, and their influence within that hobby aren't so crucial that their founder is the Henry Ford of Diplomacy.  Barno 17:43, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
User:Randy Schutt

Hi!

For more about me see About Randy.

For more about my work see The Vernal Education Project.

My book:

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Randy Schutt


text:
List of crossings of the Ohio River

This is a complete list of current bridges and other crossings of the Ohio River from the mouth at the Mississippi River at Cairo, Illinois to the confluence of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania
The source of the Ohio River is at the confluence of the Allegheny River and the Monongahela River (40.44194°N, -80.01389°W) at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

title: List of crossings of the Ohio River


text:
File:Diamond Hidden.jpg

Summary
Cover of A Diamond Hidden In The Mouth Of A Corpse compilation LP.

title: File:Diamond Hidden.jpg


text:
User talk:Larry.beckley

Welcome
Welcome to Wikipedia , I hope you will like it here and decide to stay.

You may want to take a look at the welcome page, tutorial, and stylebook, avoiding common mistakes and Wikipedia is not pages.

Here are some links I've found useful:
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * Merge
 * New user log
 * Be Bold
 * Don't let grumpy users scare you off
 * Wikiquette
 * Contributing to Wikipedia
 * User page
 * How to upload files
 * Image copyright tags

Also: To sign comments on talk pages, simply type four tildes, like this: ~~~~. This will automatically add your username and the time after your comments. Signing with three tildes ~~~ will just sign your username. I hope to see you around Wikipedia! If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on my talk page!

Johann Wolfgang [ T ... C ]

00:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Larry.beckley


text:
User talk:Matt Ferrari

Welcome
Welcome to Wikipedia , I hope you will like it here and decide to stay.

You may want to take a look at the welcome page, tutorial, and stylebook, avoiding common mistakes and Wikipedia is not pages.

Here are some links I've found useful:
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * Merge
 * New user log
 * Be Bold
 * Don't let grumpy users scare you off
 * Wikiquette
 * Contributing to Wikipedia
 * User page
 * How to upload files
 * Image copyright tags

Also: To sign comments on talk pages, simply type four tildes, like this: ~~~~. This will automatically add your username and the time after your comments. Signing with three tildes ~~~ will just sign your username. I hope to see you around Wikipedia! If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on my talk page!

Johann Wolfgang [ T ... C ]

00:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Matt Ferrari


text:
User talk:Mimigaspard

Welcome
Welcome to Wikipedia , I hope you will like it here and decide to stay.

You may want to take a look at the welcome page, tutorial, and stylebook, avoiding common mistakes and Wikipedia is not pages.

Here are some links I've found useful:
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * Merge
 * New user log
 * Be Bold
 * Don't let grumpy users scare you off
 * Wikiquette
 * Contributing to Wikipedia
 * User page
 * How to upload files
 * Image copyright tags

Also: To sign comments on talk pages, simply type four tildes, like this: ~~~~. This will automatically add your username and the time after your comments. Signing with three tildes ~~~ will just sign your username. I hope to see you around Wikipedia! If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on my talk page!

Johann Wolfgang [ T ... C ]

00:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mimigaspard


text: User talk:206.248.71.232

title: User talk:206.248.71.232


text:
Dimako

Dimako is the name of a sub-division district and small town situated in Upper Nyong Division of the East Province of Cameroon, Africa. It lies a little way south of East Province capital of Bertoua. The local language is Kwakum, spoken by the population of around 10,000.

National Road 10 passes through Dimako. Due to the humid mosquito- and black fly-infested forests, the area sees little tourism.

Forestry
There are several attempts at developing sustainable tropical rain forest forestry projects in the area, including the Dimako Council Forest.

Illegal and indiscriminate logging is a problem in the area, and especially in natural forest stands.

Rougier Ocean operate a veneer and plywood factory at Dimako. This and other wood processing factories have attracted immigration to the sparsely-populated area.

title: Dimako


text:
Saint James station

Saint James Station may refer to:

Railway stations in the UK

 * Cheltenham Spa St. James railway station, formerly in Cheltenham, England
 * Paisley St James railway station in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
 * Liverpool St James railway station, England, a disused station in Liverpool
 * St James Metro station, on the Tyne and Wear Metro in Newcastle upon Tyne, England

Railway stations elsewhere

 * St. James station (LIRR), in St. James, New York, U.S.
 * Saint James station (VTA), in San Jose, California, U.S.
 * St James railway station, Sydney, Australia
 * St James railway station in St James, Cape Town, South Africa

Other uses

 * St James Station, New Zealand, a former high country sheep and cattle station

title: Saint James station


text:
Digital Chart of the World

The Digital Chart of the World (DCW) is a comprehensive digital map of Earth. It is the most comprehensive geographical information system (GIS) global database that is freely available as of 2006, although it has not been updated since 1992.

Origin
The primary source for this database is the United States Defense Mapping Agency's (DMA) operational navigation chart (ONC) 1:1,000,000 scale paper map series produced by the US, Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom. These charts were designed to meet the needs of pilots and air crews in medium-and low-altitude en route navigation and to support military operational planning, intelligence briefings, and other needs.

Data structure
The data is divided into 2,094 tiles that represent 5 × 5-degree areas of the globe, except data obtained from Penn State which is broken up by pre-1992 national boundaries, and data from the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) which is broken into just five tiles. The data currency varies from place to place, ranging from the mid-1960s to the early 1990s.

The thematic layers of the Digital Chart of the World are:
 * Political/ocean (country boundaries)
 * Populated places (urbanized areas and points)
 * Roads
 * Railroads
 * Aeronautical structures
 * Utilities (electrical, telephone, pipelines)
 * Drainage system
 * Hypsographic data
 * Land cover
 * Ocean features
 * Physiography
 * Cultural landmarks
 * Transportation structure
 * Vegetation
 * Data location

title: Digital Chart of the World


text:
Berkeley Rose Garden

The Berkeley Rose Garden is a city-owned park in the North Berkeley area of Berkeley, California. The rose garden is situated in a residential area of the Berkeley Hills between the Cragmont and the La Loma Park neighborhoods, occupying most of the block between Eunice Street and Bayview Place along the west side of Euclid Avenue, and west of Codornices Park.

Rose Garden
The Berkeley Rose Garden is in the form of a terraced amphitheater located in a small canyon and has views of the city and bay of San Francisco and the Golden Gate. More than 100 rose varieties grow along the terraces, with maximum blooming occurring in mid-May. The park is bisected by Codornices Creek. The north side of the Rose Garden includes a set of tennis courts. The south side is a grove of coast redwoods, bay laurel and coastal live oak trees.

Construction of the rose garden began in 1933 with funds provided by the federal Civil Works Administration. Construction continued in subsequent years with funding from the California State Relief Administration and the federal Works Progress Administration. It opened on September 26, 1937. Since its inception, the Rose Garden has been the site of a number of rose shows.

Codornices Park
Across Euclid Avenue is Codornices Park, an older city park (established 1915) of which the Rose Garden was initially considered an extension. Codornices includes a large lawn, picnic area, children's play equipment and a long concrete slide. Here, two forks of Codornices Creek have their confluence, right along the line of the Hayward Fault. The clubhouse of the Codornices Club, a neighborhood improvement and social club, once stood on a lot adjacent to the top of the concrete slide.

A pedestrian tunnel runs under Euclid, connecting the Rose Garden with Codornices Park. In this section, from 1912 to 1928, before the Rose Garden was established, a 275 ft wooden streetcar and road trestle spanned Codornices Creek along Euclid. In late 1928 through early 1929, the trestle was filled in, a culvert laid through it for the creek, and the pedestrian tunnel constructed. Much of the fill originated from the excavation of a small hill on the UC Berkeley campus as part of the construction of Giannini Hall.

Using the concrete slide
To use the slide it is recommended to sit on top of a piece of cardboard the size of a normal doormat. There is usually a small quantity of cardboard available to the public at the top or bottom of the slide for this purpose. Bringing your own cardboard is a good idea if it has recently rained. Intermediate and expert slide users sprinkle a couple handfuls of sand at the top of the slide before embarking for a more thrilling experience.

title: Berkeley Rose Garden


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MOJD

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Neutralitytalk 14:00, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

MOJD
Vanity article. --WikiFanaticTalk Contribs 19:35, 2 October 2005 (CDT)
 * Delete From the article: "most significant [work] is the network maintenance of a rural high school between 2004 - 2005" Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 01:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Starblind. — ceejayoz ★ 02:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * delete as above Pete.Hurd 04:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom.    Dl yo ns 493   Ta lk   05:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - nn, advert CLW 11:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MOJD


text:
User:Khatores

Hi! I'm from Hilliard, FL (near Jacksonville, FL) and a political science major at University of North Florida.

Major contributions

 * Hilliard, FL
 * Nassau County, FL
 * Gate Petroleum

Created

 * National Conference for Community and Justice
 * Fresh Ministries
 * Springfield (Jacksonville neighborhood)
 * Nassau County Soil and Water Conservation District
 * Florida Community College at Jacksonville
 * John Rutherford (sheriff)
 * Acosta Bridge
 * Craig Municipal Airport

title: User:Khatores


text:
User:Starpause

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Biography on CODAME.com

Release catalog on Discogs

Creative Commons track stems for remix/reuse at Blend.io

title: User:Starpause


text:
Hawker P.1081

The Hawker P.1081, also known as the "Australian Fighter" was a prototype British jet aircraft from the mid-twentieth century. The single example built was destroyed in a crash in 1951.

Design and development
In 1949, the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) began assessing replacements for two fighters built in Australia: the Mustangs built by Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation (CAC) and Vampires of De Havilland Australia (DHA). A series of designs were considered, including the Grumman F9F Panther and the CAC CA-23 – an unconventional, twin-jet all-weather design by CAC.

Hawker Aircraft also submitted a proposal, for a swept-wing, swept-tail fighter based on the Hawker P.1052, but using a Rolls-Royce Tay engine. Work began to modify the second prototype of the P.1052 (VX279) along these lines, although the Rolls-Royce Nene engine already fitted was initially retained. To allow an afterburner, the bifurcated tail-pipes of the P.1052 was replaced by a  single  tail-exit  pipe.

VX279, which was now the prototype P.1081, took to the air on 19 June 1950. CAC, evidently planning to build any design accepted by the Australian government, assigned the serial number CA-24 to the P.1081.

By mid-1950, however, the RAAF urgently required a replacement for its Mustangs, some of which were in action in Korea and faced the possibility of clashes with MiG-15s. The P.1081 could not realistically become operational for at least a few years, so a ready-made fighter was required. While the North American F-86 Sabre was operational with the US Air Force in Korea, the USAF had complete priority and the F-86 could not be delivered to the RAAF for at least a few years. (After the war, CAC in Australia built a more powerful, Rolls-Royce Avon-engined variant of the F-86, known as the CAC Sabre. ) To replace its Mustangs in Korea, the Australian government ordered the F.8 variant of the Gloster Meteor, which was already in service with the RAF.

In November 1950, evidently anticipating that orders for the P.1081 would not eventuate, Hawker decided to cease development. The prototype, which had remained in the UK, was handed over by Hawker to the Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE). Its swept tail increased the Mach number above that of the P.1052 into the Mach 0.9-0.95 region, providing valuable data that contributed to the design of the axially-powered Hawker Hunter.

On 3 April 1951, the P.1081 prototype was lost with its pilot, Squadron Leader T. S. "Wimpy" Wade.

Operators

 * Royal Aircraft Establishment
 * Royal Aircraft Establishment

title: Hawker P.1081


text:
User:Theyab 07

My name is Ben and I live in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. I don't usually stray far into in-depth articles and usually only make minor spelling/grammer edits on most pages I visit, however, I will add articles or make major edits to things I have prior knowledge on. I also enjoy taking photographs of buildings as well as the city of Halifax.

Articles I Have Created:

 * All of the building's articles in the List of buildings in the Halifax Regional Municipality except for the Alderney Landing, St. Mary's Basilica, Halifax Metro Centre and Scotia Square Complex articles.
 * West Hants, Nova Scotia
 * Pemberton, British Columbia
 * Joseph Despard Pemberton

Articles I Heavily Edit and/or Contribute to:

 * Halifax Regional Municipality
 * Atlantic Canada
 * Maritimes
 * Moncton, New Brunswick
 * Saint John, New Brunswick

Pictures I Have Created and Uploaded:

 * Image Gallery

title: User:Theyab 07


text:
Beyond Salvation

Beyond Salvation is the ninth studio album by the Australian hard rock band The Angels, produced and recorded in Memphis by Terry Manning. It was released in the US in November 1989 and in Australia in June 1990. The album peaked at No. 1 on the ARIA Albums Chart and it also peaked at number 3 on the Recorded Music NZ.

The US version of the album, released under the name The Angels From Angel City, featured a vastly different track listing. It was made up of 4 brand new songs, "Dogs Are Talking", "Rhythm Rude Girl", "Let the Night Roll On" (the only 3 songs to also appear on the Australian edition), and "Junk City" (Australian single B-side to "Let the Night Roll On"), and re-recordings of 5 classic Angels songs, "City Out of Control" (Night Attack, 1981), "Am I Ever Gonna See Your Face Again" (The Angels, 1977), "I Ain't the One" (Face to Face, 1978), "Who Rings The Bell" (The Angels' Greatest, 1980), and "Can't Shake It" (No Exit, 1979).

Track listing
Credits adapted from the original releases.

Australian release

 * 1) "Let the Night Roll On" (Doc Neeson, Richard Brewster, Amanda Miller) – 4:04
 * 2) "Back Street Pickup" (Bob Spencer, Brewster, Neeson, Terry Manning, James Morley) – 4:22
 * 3) "Dogs Are Talking" (Brewster, Spencer, Neeson, Brent Eccles, Morley) – 3:23
 * 4) "Rhythm Rude Girl" (Spencer, Brewster) – 5:36
 * 5) "Jump Back Baby" (Brewster, Spencer, Neeson, Eccles) – 5:35
 * 6) "Love Waits" (Brewster, Neeson, Spencer, Eccles, Jim Hilbun) – 4:25
 * 7) "Bleeding with the Times" (Brewster, Miller) – 5:36
 * 8) "Pushing and Shoving" (Spencer, Brewster) – 4:35
 * 9) "Bitch" (Brewster, Miller) – 2:23
 * 10) "Beyond Salvation" (Brewster, Spencer, Neeson, Eccles) – 3:27
 * 11) "Take an X" (Neeson, Brewster, Spencer, Micheal Towers) – 4:54

American version
An American version of the album was released in 1989 under the band name The Angels from Angel City.
 * 1) "Dogs Are Talking" – 3:23
 * 2) "Rhythm Rude Girl" – 5:58
 * 3) "Let the Night Roll On" – 4:58
 * 4) "City Out of Control" – 5:35
 * 5) "Junk City" – 6:23
 * 6) "Am I Ever Gonna See Your Face Again" – 3:56
 * 7) "I Ain't the One" – 2:24
 * 8) "Who Rings the Bell" – 3:26
 * 9) "Can't Shake It" – 4:52

Personnel

 * The Angels
 * Doc Neeson – lead vocals
 * Rick Brewster – lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass guitar
 * Bob Spencer – lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass guitar, backing vocals
 * James Morley – bass guitar, backing vocals
 * Brent Eccles – drums

 * Production
 * Terry Manning – producer, engineer, mixing
 * Bob Ludwig – mastering

title: Beyond Salvation


text:
Gryposaurus

Gryposaurus (meaning "hooked-nosed (Greek grypos) lizard"; sometimes incorrectly translated as "griffin (Latin gryphus) lizard" ) was a genus of duckbilled dinosaur that lived about 80 to 75 million years ago, in the Late Cretaceous (late Santonian to late Campanian stages) of North America. Named species of Gryposaurus are known from the Dinosaur Park Formation in Alberta, Canada, and two formations in the United States: the Lower Two Medicine Formation in Montana and the Kaiparowits Formation of Utah. A possible additional species from the Javelina Formation in Texas may extend the temporal range of the genus to 66 million years ago.

Gryposaurus is similar to Kritosaurus, and for many years the two were thought to be synonyms. It is known from numerous skulls, some skeletons, and even some skin impressions that show it to have had pyramidal scales projecting along the midline of the back. It is most easily distinguished from other duckbills by its narrow arching nasal hump, sometimes described as similar to a "Roman nose," and which may have been used for species or sexual identification, and/or combat with individuals of the same species. A large bipedal/quadrupedal herbivore around 8 m long, it may have preferred river settings.

History of discovery
Gryposaurus is based on specimen NMC 2278, a skull and partial skeleton collected in 1913 by George F. Sternberg from what is now known as the Dinosaur Park Formation of Alberta, along the Red Deer River. This specimen was described and named by Lawrence Lambe shortly thereafter, Lambe drawing attention to its unusual nasal crest. A few years earlier, Barnum Brown had collected and described a partial skull from New Mexico, which he named Kritosaurus. This skull was missing the snout, which had eroded into fragments; Brown restored it after the duckbill now known as Edmontosaurus annectens, which was flat-headed, and believed that some unusual pieces were evidence of compression. Lambe's description of Gryposaurus provided evidence of a different type of skull configuration, and by 1916 the Kritosaurus skull had been redone with a nasal arch and both Brown and Charles Gilmore had proposed that Gryposaurus and Kritosaurus were one and the same. This idea was reflected in William Parks's naming of a nearly complete skeleton from the Dinosaur Park Formation as Kritosaurus incurvimanus, not Gryposaurus incurvimanus (although he left Gryposaurus notabilis in its own genus). Direct comparison between Kritosaurus incurvimanus and Gryposaurus notabilis is hindered by the fact that the incurvimanus type specimen is missing the front part of the skull, so the full shape of the nasal arch cannot be seen. The 1942 publication of the influential Lull and Wright monograph on hadrosaurs sealed the Kritosaurus/Gryposaurus question for nearly fifty years in favor of Kritosaurus. Reviews beginning in the 1990s, however, called into question the identity of Kritosaurus navajovius, which has limited material for comparison with other duckbills. Thus, Gryposaurus has once again been separated, at least temporarily, from Kritosaurus. This situation is made more confusing by old suggestions by some authors, including Jack Horner, that Hadrosaurus is also the same as either Gryposaurus, Kritosaurus, or both. This hypothesis was most common in the late 1970s–early 1980s, and appears in some popular books; one well-known work, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs, uses Kritosaurus for the Canadian material (Gryposaurus), but identifies the mounted skeleton of K. incurvimanus as Hadrosaurus in a photo caption. Although Horner in 1979 used the new combination Hadrosaurus [Kritosaurus] notabilis for a partial skull and skeleton and a second less-complete skeleton from the Bearpaw Shale of Montana (which have since fallen out of the literature), by 1990 he had changed his position, and was among the first to again use Gryposaurus in print. Current thought is that Hadrosaurus, although known from fragmentary material, can be distinguished from Gryposaurus by differences in the upper arm and ilium.

Further research has revealed the presence of a second species, G. latidens, from slightly older rocks in Montana than the classic gryposaur localities of Alberta. Based on two parts of a skeleton collected in 1916 for the American Museum of Natural History, G. latidens is also known from bonebed material. Horner, who described the specimens, considered it to be a less derived species.

New material from the Kaiparowits Formation of Utah, in Grand Staircase–Escalante National Monument, includes a skull and partial skeleton that represent the species G. monumentensis. Its skull was more robust than that of the other species, and its predentary had enlarged prongs along its upper margin, where the lower jaw's beak was based. This new species greatly expands the geographic range of this genus, and there may be a second, more lightly built species present as well. Multiple gryposaur species are known from the Kaiparowits Formation, represented by cranial and postcranial remains, and were larger than their northern counterparts.

In Texas, specifically at the Javelina Formation and the El Picacho Formation, indeterminate hadrosaur remains resembling Kritosaurus and Gryposaurus have been unearthed for decades, but none were considered to be identifiable as a determined genus of hadrosaur, but do resemble some species of Kritosaurini or at least some species of Kritosaurus. However, in 2016, a possibly forth valid species of Gryposaurus named G. alsatei, which was named after Alsate, who was the last leader of the Mescalero Apaches, was unearthed in the Javelina Formation in Texas. Further research is needed to confirm its validity.

Species
As of 2016, there are currently three named species that are recognized as valid today: G. notabilis, G. latidens, and G. monumentensis. The type species G. notabilis is from the late Campanian-age Upper Cretaceous Dinosaur Park Formation of Alberta, Canada. It is now thought that another species from the same formation, Kritosaurus incurvimanus (also known as Gryposaurus incurvimanus), is a synonym of G. notabilis. The two had been differentiated by the size of the nasal arch (larger and closer to the eyes in G. notabilis) and the form of the upper arm (longer and more robust in K. incurvimanus). Ten complete skulls and twelve fragmentary skulls are known for G. notabilis along with postcrania, as well as with two skeletons with skulls that had been assigned to K. incurvimanus. G. latidens, from the late Santonian-early Campanian Lower Two Medicine Formation of Pondera County, Montana, USA, is known from partial skulls and skeletons from several individuals. Its nasal arch is prominent like that of G. notabilis, but farther forward on the snout, and its teeth are less derived, reflecting iguanodont-like characteristics. The informal name "Hadrosauravus" is an early, unused name for this species. G. monumentensis is known from a skull and partial skeleton from Utah. G. monumentensis was listed second on the top 10 list of new species in 2008 by the International Institute for Species Exploration. Recently, a possible fourth species of Gryposaurus, Gryposaurus alsatei, was unearthed in the Javelina Formation, which dates to the late Maastrichtian, along with an unnamed species of Kritosaurus and an undescribed saurolophine which closely resembles Saurolophus, but with a more solid crest.

The dubious hadrosaurid Stephanosaurus marginatus was considered a possible species of Kritosaurus, following the synonymy of Gryposaurus with Kritosaurus. However, this synonymy was rejected in the 2004 edition of the Dinosauria, with Stephanosaurus being tabulated as dubious.

Description
Gryposaurus was a hadrosaurid of typical size and shape; one of the best specimens of this genus, the nearly complete type specimen of Kritosaurus incurvimanus (now regarded as a synonym of Gryposaurus notabilis) came from an animal about 8.2 m long. This specimen also has the best example of skin impressions for Gryposaurus, showing this dinosaur to have had several different types of scalation: pyramidal, ridged, limpet-shaped scutes upwards of 3.8 centimeters long (1.5 inches) on the flank and tail; uniform polygonal scales on the neck and sides of the body; and pyramidal structures, flattened side-to-side, with fluted sides, longer than tall and found along the top of the back in a single midline row. In 2016, Gregory S. Paul estimated the size of G. latidens at 7.5 m in length and 2.5 MT in body mass and the other two species (G. notabilis and G. monumentensis) at 8 m in length and 3 MT in body mass.

The three named species of Gryposaurus differ in details of the skull and lower jaw. The prominent nasal arch found in this genus is formed from the paired nasal bones. In profile view, they rise into a rounded hump in front of the eyes, reaching a height as tall as the highest point of the back of the skull. The skeleton is known in great detail, making it a useful point of reference for other duckbill skeletons.

Classification
Gryposaurus was a saurolophine (hadrosaurine of older references) hadrosaurid, a member of the duckbill subfamily without hollow head crests. The general term "gryposaur" is sometimes used for duckbills with arched nasals. Tethyshadros was once thought to fall into this group as well, before it was described (then known under the nickname "Antonio"). A subfamily, Gryposaurinae, was coined by Jack Horner as part of a larger revision that promoted Hadrosaurinae to family status, but is not now in use. A rough equivalent is Kritosaurini, as used by Alberto Prieto-Márquez. Kritosaurus has been proposed to be a synonym of Gryposaurus, but it is slightly younger. Additionally, while the skull of Kritosaurus is incompletely known, lacking most of the bones in front of the eyes, it was very similar to that of Gryposaurus.

The following is a cladogram based on the phylogenetic analysis conducted by Prieto-Márquez and Wagner in 2012, showing the relationships of Gryposaurus among the other kritosaurins:

Paleobiology
As a hadrosaurid, Gryposaurus would have been a bipedal/quadrupedal herbivore, eating a variety of plants. Its skull had special joints that permitted a grinding motion analogous to chewing, and its teeth were continually replacing and packed into dental batteries that contained hundreds of teeth, only a relative handful of which were in use at any time. Plant material would have been cropped by its broad beak, and held in the jaws by a cheek-like organ. Its feeding range would have extended from the ground to about 4 m above. The paleontologists who unearthed G. monumentensis back in the 2000s brought the fact that this creature dined on tough, fibrous plant material which would imply that Gryposaurs was both a grazer and a browser.

Like other bird-hipped dinosaurs of the Dinosaur Park Formation, Gryposaurus appears to have only existed for part of the duration of time that the rocks were being formed. As the formation was being laid down, it recorded a change to more marine-influenced conditions. Gryposaurus is absent from the upper part of the formation, with Prosaurolophus present instead. Other dinosaurs known from only the lower part of the formation include the horned Centrosaurus and the hollow-crested duckbill Corythosaurus. Gryposaurus may have preferred river-related settings.

Nasal arch
The distinctive nasal arch of Gryposaurus, like other cranial modifications in duckbills, may have been used for a variety of social functions, such as identification of sexes or species and social ranking. It could also have functioned as a tool for broadside pushing or butting in social contests, and there may have been inflatable air sacs flanking it for both visual and auditory signaling. The top of the arch is roughened in some specimens, suggesting that it was covered by thick, keratinized skin, or that there was a cartilaginous extension.

Utah
Argon-argon radiometric dating indicates that the Kaiparowits Formation was deposited between 76.1 and 74.0 million years ago, during the Campanian stage of the Late Cretaceous period. During the Late Cretaceous period, the site of the Kaiparowits Formation was located near the western shore of the Western Interior Seaway, a large inland sea that split North America into two landmasses, Laramidia to the west and Appalachia to the east. The plateau where dinosaurs lived was an ancient floodplain dominated by large channels and abundant wetland peat swamps, ponds and lakes, and was bordered by highlands. The climate was wet and humid, and supported an abundant and diverse range of organisms. This formation contains one of the best and most continuous records of Late Cretaceous terrestrial life in the world.

Gryposaurus monumentensis shared its paleoenvironment with other dinosaurs, such as dromaeosaurid theropods, the troodontid Talos sampsoni, ornithomimids like Ornithomimus velox, tyrannosaurids like Albertosaurus and Teratophoneus, armored ankylosaurids, the duckbilled hadrosaur Parasaurolophus cyrtocristatus, the ceratopsians Utahceratops gettyi, Nasutoceratops titusi and Kosmoceratops richardsoni and the oviraptorosaurian Hagryphus giganteus. Other paleofauna present in the Kaiparowits Formation included chondrichthyans (sharks and rays), frogs, salamanders, turtles, lizards and crocodilians. A variety of early mammals were present including multituberculates, marsupials, and insectivorans.

title: Gryposaurus


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Www.animateclay.com

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Neutralitytalk 14:01, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Www.animateclay.com
Non-notable, Alexa rank of 583,606 and appears to be a vanity page. — ceejayoz ★ 00:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete per nomination. — ceejayoz ★ 00:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Jtkiefer  T - 00:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, lol. ericg ✈ 00:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom --Alynna 04:25, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - nn CLW 11:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Flowerparty ■ 19:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Jesse James (actor)

Jesse James (born September 14, 1989) is an American actor.

Early life
James was born in Palm Springs, California, the son of Jaime, a laboratory technician, and Shane James, an actor.

Career
James began his acting career in the 1997 film As Good as It Gets, a role for which he won the Hollywood Reporter Young Star award. His career continued with his role in the 2001 film Blow, as the child version of Johnny Depp's character, and Pearl Harbor, in which he played the young version of Ben Affleck's character. James acted in the 2004 film The Butterfly Effect as the young Tommy Miller and The Amityville Horror. His television work includes Life and In Plain Sight, and he has become involved in the independent film community with projects such as Exodus Fall and Hickory Nation.

In 2008 James starred in and was an executive producer for the short film Manifest Destiny.

Film

 * As Good as It Gets (1997) – Spencer Connelly
 * Gods and Monsters (1998) – Michael Boone
 * The Gingerbread Man (1998) – Jeff
 * Puppies for Sale (1998) – Customer
 * Sorrow's Child (1998) – Matt
 * Message in a Bottle (1999) – Jason Osborne
 * A Dog of Flanders (1999) – Young Nello
 * Hanging Up (2000) – Jesse Marks
 * Bailey's Mistake (2001, TV) – Dylan Donovan
 * Blow (2001) – Young George Jung
 * Pearl Harbor (2001) – Young Rafe McCawley
 * Fear of the Dark (2002) – Ryan Billings
 * Slap Her... She's French (2002) – Randolph Grady
 * The Butterfly Effect (2004) – Tommy Miller at 13
 * The Amityville Horror (2005) – Billy Lutz
 * The Darkroom (2006) – J-Dawg
 * The Flyboys (2008) – Jason McIntyre
 * Jumper (2008) – young Mark Kobold
 * Bones (2010) – Derrick Scott
 * Exodus Fall (2010) – Kenneth Minor
 * The Last Ride (2012) – Silas
 * Hickory Nation (2012)
 * Dead Souls (2012) – Johnny Petrie
 * Wishin' and Hopin' (2014) – Chino
 * The Lucky Man (2018) – Rev. Johnny Jones

Television

 * Walker, Texas Ranger ("Last of The Breed", parts 1 and 2, 1997) – Jebb Wilson
 * ER ("Good Luck, Ruth Johnson", 1998) – Wilson Geary
 * The X-Files ("The Unnatural", 1999) – Poor boy
 * The Wild Thornberrys ("Chimp Off the Old Block", 1999) – Gola
 * Angel ("I've Got You Under My Skin", 2000) – Ryan
 * Felicity ("Party Lines", 2000) – Stephen
 * Chicago Hope ("Hopes of You", 2000) – Dustin Moss
 * Family Law ("Celano v. Foster", 2002) – Jake Shaw
 * Monk ("Mr. Monk and the Captain's Wife", 2004) – Jared Stottlemeyer
 * Veronica Mars ("Papa's Cabin", 2007) – J.D. Sansone
 * In Plain Sight ("A Stand-Up Triple", 2009) – Tripp Sullivan
 * The Mentalist ("Red Menace", 2009) – Lucas Hodge
 * Mad Men (The Doorway, part 2, 2013) - Zal

title: Jesse James (actor)


text:
Talk:Rajput/Archive 3

Reply to Kunwarji
You imply that Rajputs glory was attained by fighting the armies of Muslims. We must clear one point here;

a) Not all the so called Muslim kings who invaded India were perfect Muslims and in fact many of them never followed the basics of the faith. It is also a noteworthy point that many Islamic Luminaries of the time rebelled against these same so called Muslim Kings, so please be distinct with your point. This is also in view of the point that great many Kings of Ancient India although followed the precepts of Hinduism were less Hindu in their acts.

b) Rajputs glory is simple, it's in their nobility and bravery as well as their accomplishments. If it was just because they fought Muslims and were defeated, then that is a poor identity for us. Our glory precedes and predates these conquests. This point must be made clear. There are many other castes which are always trying to undermine us, let us not in fight amongst ourselves regarding our OWN history and significance.

c) Sikhs state that they are not Hindu and do not believe in the Varna that some people are born lower. Then how can Sikhs also not be outcaste by your definition that when one leaves Hinduism he is outcaste? I disagree, I believe that it is a warrior spirit, way of life which if anyone commits can become a 'Kshatriya'. You may not accept this, but an actual Pundit has assured me of this who is a greater authority on the Varna I believe.

Another also interesting point, I have cut and pasted a page for your reference;

Thoughts About Castes From Mahabharata Retold by- Chandra Holm Chandra Holm is originally from Ramanagaram, Karnataka. She holds a doctorate in Metallurgical Engineering from McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada. She currently teaches at the University of Applied Sciences in Olten, Switzerland. Since a very early age, Chandra held a strong passion for literature. She is the author of 'Dasavatara,Die zehn Gestalten des indischen Gottes Vischnu', a German book containing reproductions of beautiful miniature Pahari paintings from the mountain region of India. Chandra was also involved in translating into English the book 'Bilder des Nainsukh von Guler' by Eberhard Fischer and B.N.Goswamy. She hosts a web site purely devoted to the rich Indian literature- Chandra's Book page http://ch.8m.com. Nearly 7 years ago, she started, in Zurich, a literature club on Indian literature. She also helps organize concerts of Indian classical music on regular basis in the Rietberg Museum in Zurich. Chandra is married to a German physicist, and is the mother of two young boys. (The epic Mahabharata is an unparalleled source of stories. Every time I read the epic, I discover something new in it, learn something more from it. One of my favourite stories from Mahabharata relates the conversation between Dharmaraja, the eldest of the Pandava brothers, and a python, on the importance of the castes. The incidence takes place after Dharmaraja loses the game of dice, and loses, as a consequence, his empire and all his wealth. Dharmaraja offers his brothers Bhima, Arjuna, Nakula and Sahadeva as bets, and loses the game. Then he bets himself, and later even his wife, Draupadi. Every time Dharmaraja loses the game to his cousin, Dhuryodhana, the King of the Kauravas. At this point the elders in the Kaurava court intervene, and Dhuryodhana reluctantly agrees to set the Pandavas and Draupadi free. On one condition. The Pandavas and Draupadi have to retire to the forest and live there for 12 years, and they have to spend one more year in disguise.)

The Pandavas are quite content to live in the forest, spending their time in the company of other sages. Dharmaraja enjoys discussing with these elders the intricacies of dharma. On one such day, Bhima sets out to hunt. When after a long time Bhima does not return, the brothers and Draupadi get worried. Finally, Dharmaraja himself sets out in search of Bhima. Soon he hears Bhima's cry for help. Hurrying in the direction of the voice, Dharmaraja sees Bhima, who has been attacked by an enormous python that has wound itself around him, making him totally immobile. Seeing his mighty brother struggling like a helpless man in the grip of the python, Dharmaraja is shocked. With tears streaming down his face, he starts praying to Krishna.

Just then, the python addresses him in a human voice, and says, "Oh, King, Dharmaraja! I understand how unhappy you are at seeing your brother being imprisoned by me. I will happily let him go if you can correctly answer a couple of my questions." Dharmaraja replies, "Oh, Holy being! You are certainly not an ordinary python. You seem to be testing us - for whatever reason. Please state your questions. I will try to answer them to the best of my abilities."

The python asks the Pandava brother, "Tell me, oh king, who is a Brahmin ?" Dharmaraja's answer is clear. He says, "He who speaks the truth, who is patient, and is compassionate, whose character is without any blemish, who gives alms - he is a Brahmin." The Python continues, " What if a Shudra has these qualities?" Without any hint of hesitation, Dharmaraja replies, "A Shudra who has these qualities is not a Shudra. if a Brahmin does not have these qualities, he is certainly not a Brahmin." The python is not satisfied. It asks further, "If it is the character which makes a man a brahmin, what is the use of the caste system? What role does birth play?" Dharmaraja continues calmly: "These days castes are very mixed. Therefore the caste cannot be determined by birth alone. There are many examples, where the caste of the child is determined by the caste of the mother. At the same time, there are also plenty of examples, where the caste of the father decides the caste of the child.

The sage Vedavyasa was born of a fisher woman. But he is considered to be a Brahmin, because his father was one. The same fisher woman later married king Shantanu, and was considered from that time onwards as belonging to the Kshatriya caste. Their sons, Chitrangada and Vichitravirya, were considered to be Kshatriyas. Unfortunately both these princes died without having sired children. For the sake of the continuation of the royal lineage, their queens were asked to bear children from the sage Vedavyasa. The great sage consented to undertake this task so that the dynasty will continue. Pandu, my father, and Dhritarashtra were born as a result, and they were considered to be Kshatriyas. Vidura, who was fathered by Vedavyasa at the same time, is considered to be a Shudra because his mother was a servant. And look at us, the five Pandava brothers. We are all born of gods. Yet we are considered to be Kshatriyas. So, how can birth determine the caste? How can one son born of a sage be a Kshatriya, and the other one a Shudra? Birth can determine the caste only if there is no mixing up amongst the castes. When the castes are mixed up, as it has been happening for so long now, birth alone cannot decide the caste of a person.

Thus I am convinced that it is not birth that determines the caste to which one belongs, but it is the character that decides. In my opinion, it is the holy Gayatri who is the true mother of a Brahmin, and the teacher who is the true father. Thus that person is a real Brahmin who has studied the Vedas, whose character is without blemishes, who strives to realise the Brahman, the supreme entity."

Rajput is just that, a son of a Rajanya, a chief. If you disagree and state that it isn't lineage based then you are wrong again. If it is a way of life, then both Islam, Sikhism and even the Japanese Samurai code all dictate such a way of life. Yet some of them were downgraded from their status, but not their bloodline. I have yet to meet a Jatt who is not proud of his lineage.

d) Muslim Rajputs aren't a new phenomenon, they are over 800years old. The code of Rajputs isn't a religious one, but an honour one. Islam dictates that to hold all that is pure and discard all that is useless. Being a Muslim Rajput doesn't mean that you discard even the intellectual and pure elements of other religions. The codes of honour are very much consistent with Islam except stubborness. A Rajput who is stubborn and doesn't open his mind to the truth when he sees it then he is stubborn, and many a Rajput has been downgraded due to this.

Yes Muslims are no longer Hindu. They do live in the same society though. They are no longer within the stratosphere of the Varna, but believe that ALL men have the capacity to become bigger men should they want. Yes they are outcastes from the Hindu faith which they left, but their lineages are not less respected by their Brahmin or Hindu counterparts, who understand them. For example, the family line of Muslim Bhattis will always enjoy their lineage as Yadavs and having as connection with Lord Krishna who many Muslims believe in also (so please do your research properly before making your 'well founded remarks'. Your handful of Muslims dont speak for the majority, obviously.) Janamejayan Pandavas who have converted to Islam, will always enjoy their lineage with Arjuna Pandava, but that doesn't degrade their sense of nobility or martial spirit. Examples of these are that even today some of them are leaders in their respective Martial occupations. 3 Generals of the Pakistani armies have been Janamejayans. This is their heritage which even Islam states that a good pedigree is an excellent attribute to have. This 'heritage' which Islam refers to isn't meaning of great leaders of poor character, it means even common men, but with noble character. Just like it also implies Noble or Kingly status of noble character which many of these dynasties were. Your point regarding the Gita is well made regarding it's instruction to the ethics of Rajputs etc. Who better to understand this than the sons of the father who first heard it, Arjuna himself? Just because we follow Islam doesn't mean good ethics and morales of our original faith cannot still be followed.

e) Your point that Muslims Rajputs are claiming descendancy of defeated Hindu dynasties is also erroneous because we both know the Mughal Dynasty was beyond all Rajput might which was clearly evident in the Rajputs tributary statuses which in itself is evident of your contradiction that it is 'against their honour to be defeated and accept any foreign leadership'. I believe the Mughals were foreign? Mughal Akbar ensured this contradiction. I believe many Houses receieved tributary status and continued their rule. Just as in even the British period. Infact many fmous Rajputs gave their daughters hands to Akbar himself in marriage to solidify themselves with them. So why forget this and try to reinstate something in an attempt to reclaim a false glory? Muslim Rajputs state their pedigree and their pride in it which is not against Islam, unless they assert their authority over others of lesser pedigree to make themselves feel superior and others inferior, which is wrong and unfair.

f) The historical Muslim accounts that you refer to regarding the defeat and conversion of Rajputs being amazing etc. must also be put into context that these accounts were very much glorifies of their rulers and added much spice to stories. If you have ever read one which I am sure you will have done, then you will agree. Yes some leaders were converted by (again) these so called rulers, but the 1st rule of Islamic faith is "There is no compulsion in faith" i.e. you cannot force Islam on anyone. As I stated before these so called Muslim kings were simply tytrannical kings, even the Muslims themselves opposed them many a time. There were houses that accepted Islam without compulsion such as the Kokhars, Janjua, Bhatti and some Mohyals such as the Balis.

g) Speaking of Balis, you question why majority of Pakistanis use Rajput status but where are the Brahmins? The Balis are a Mohyal (Brahmin Warrior) caste and are great in number in Kahuta district of Pakistan and also huge in number in Punjab Pakistan. They are predominantly Muslim. This is just one example I can cite for you at this time. They are still staunch supporters of the Janamejayans or Janjuas who they have been in service to since they converted over 800 years ago.

h) The Iranian Muslims who you refer to do infact have a strong element which strongly believes in and supports their Aryan lineage. They don't appear openly so, as infact nor do the Muslim Rajputs either. Have you ever seen a Muslim Rajput with a tikka on his forehead and the rest of the Regalia? Just because it is not apparent to the eye, doesn't mean the passion is not in the heart.

j) You have claimed that some Muslims believe the Turks and Arabs are superior to them Martially. This is a simple view borne out of the fact that these races are acknowledged as warlords of a conquering nature. Yes Rajputs were very powerful in their era, but were ultimately only based in India. They never conquered beyond it's own boundaries, possibly due to the civil wars between feuding Kingdoms. However the Afghans and Turks both conquered huge lands and ruled over the said Rajputs very brutally indeed as you have mentioned above. Then later, the Mughals in fact were descendants of world conquerors (Tamerlane and ofcourse maternally through Genghis Khan, the world's greatest known conqueror who's fighting capabality needs no elaboration.) The Mughals power and Martial capability was proven by their acceptance (by force or alliance) by the Rajputs. Only once an Arab (Muhammad Ibn Qasim)came to battle in India and he easily defeated Raja Dahir of what is now known as Sindh. He was a young teenager and general of an army coming to a foreign land who defeated a strong Rajput. That's why they are known as Martially superior by those who deem such things as important. Instead of engaging them and elaborating your point, it does no good to ridicule this simple view, which in itself isn't all wrong in the above stated sense (Martial capability as a race according to proven track record) If we go by this logic that a Martial capability of a race determines it's superiority then Rajputs are nowhere near the accomplishments of the Mongolian empire. But do we see such pride in them?

I believe you are misunderstood about our meaning of Muslim Rajputs. Yes we no longer rule kingdoms etc. (i.e. the status of Kings is no longer there) but our tribal identity is that we carry some of our Hindu traditions which are consistent with Islam. Other non Islamic traditions are also widely practiced which again as long as they are not in contradiction with Islam are permitted. In fact a well known Muslim act of Qawali is alien in other Muslim lands but great many Muslims follow it here in India and Pakistan. It is also backed by many Scholars too. Yes some scholars disagree but they are less in number and extreme in their views. So in answer to your predicament, we Muslim Rajputs are large in numbers, proud of ancestral lineage where it helps our faith and our adherence to it. We are still Martial in our traditions which I am sorry but our upbringing and blood traits cannot degrade simply because you are in such an opinion with other foreign universities. We are not Hindu Rajputras and do not believe that we were born of the Moon and Sun at all. But we do believe in the nobility of our blood and ancestors and will strive to reach it, as did they. Valiance, bravery, nobility and Martial spirit are not exclusive to a Hindu culture alone. Many faiths and cultures will prove this. We are Indianised Muslims and will invariably continue to be which again isn't prohibited by Islam. There a great many Muslim Saints especially the famed one of Rajasthan, Ajmer who preached this view and he was Persian by descent!

You say Muslim Rajputs must make a unique identity of their own, which is different to the Hindu one. I say that this is already in existence. We can even be considered a hybrid of sorts.

The only difference between me and another Hindu Rajput of the same clan would be by faith. Our blood would essentially be the same, our upbringing would be similar although fundamentally not identical i.e. The Hindus wouldn't observe Ramadan, the Muslim one wouldn't bow down to an Idol of a Deity. The nature of their blood and principle upbringing would still be in the same Martial and noble vein which even you have stated 'Rajput isn't a Religion'. Therefore by this logic it is only the difference of Faith, not blood. So how can one lose his lineage by converting his faith. This doesn't make sense. If it's lineage which makes a Rajput then all sons of the Rajanya are Rajputras. Blood will always prevail to it's traits. Another good example of this is the Ghakkar/Kokkar Sassanids. They were ousted from Iran and they gained settlement in India. They were a Royal Dynasty which ruled Iran for 600years. During their stay in India, they rested not on their laurels but fought for many centuries. They adopted the Hindu faith for a period, then accepted Islam (the majority). Their martial blood never let up regardless the faiths they converted to. The mentality was essentially the same throughout the centuries, over a 1000yrs of which is recorded in India history. Does this mean that they were only noble, valiant and martial whilst they were Hindus? They weren't Chandravanshi, Suryavanshi or Agnikula, yet they were called Rajput by the Pundits of their respective conquered regions due to their warlike nature and noble brave acts. Many authentic Rajput houses even engaged in marriage between these 'New Rajputs' despite the well known tradition that Rajputs don't marry non Rajputs. This essentially Iranian Dynasty which interchanged between 3 faiths in the last millenium has retained this status from the REAL Rajputs who had power and prestige of the day (not us modern day speculators- but the living and breathing Royals of the Rajput era. I don't consider todays 'Rajput Houses' as one of those, who are powerless remnants of the past.) It is a well known fact that Scythic and Hunnic tribes were absorbed into the fold as Kshatriyas/Rajputs too. So even lineage itself has been questioned here. It is therefore more status based than Religion based.

I would like to apologise for any offence to you. I am extremely grateful that you have not marred Islam in anyway whilst referring to it. Your respect for Islam, your passion for the Rajput lineages and history is very much appreciated and understood. Maybe someday we will get a chance to sit and talk at length over a coffee! Never give up hope,lol!

"Comments on Wisesabre"

First of all let me say, I am impressed by your arguments about muslim rajputs, but I would like to add some thing to it. I agree with you when you say " Rajputs glory is simple, it's in their nobility and bravery as well as their accomplishments. But let me add a little to this definition.

Rajput glory is about their conviction, about their courage to stick to these conviction and about their willingness to pay extreme price for that conviction. They never conquered vast lands and were not always victorious but still could attract highest regards from everybody. From their adversaries even, and that is unique to rajputs. Rajputs were defeated many a times. Not many vanquished races are respected as much as a rajput by even their adversaries who were with full of praise for rajputs. It was due to their fierce determination to fight for right. It is therefor logical to retort here "Respect for rajputs did not come from those who succumbed to sword and got converted. It came from those rajputs who endured every sort of pain and struggle but remain steadfast to their conviction. They might have lost many battles but there was a glory even in their defeat and that is also unique to rajputs in the history of mankind. Their defeat was glorious because they were always up against enormous odds but they still gave their adversaries run for their life and that is why those conqueres had respect for rajputs.

People can claim their lineage to their rajput ancestors but I do not think they have any claim to rajputi. This is not because they may not be as good as any real rajput but it is because some where up the lane some of their ancestors did not act like rajputs and thats why they have lost their share of rajput glory. in the same way an out casted son will lose his inheritence. Muslim rajputs therefore have lost their share of that rajput glory.

I do agree with you that one can attain a status as per vedic varna system but then you will have to attain what your ancestors have lost for all of you. I do not know how a muslim is going to attain that status. It is up to the muslims caliming rajput lineage to decide. Till you achieved that staus by your karma I will agree with Kunwarji that Muslim Rajput is oxymoron.

Yours Sincerely,

Dinesh Singh Naruka

whats the way out...
So whats the way out? I think we could mention seprately the muslim rajput clans.

before answering any Question here you should know what is wikipedia's Neutal Point of view policy.الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 19:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Answer to Wisesabre
I must first state this point that I am in total agreement with the Wikipedia editors with regards to the raising and accepting the dispute of this article. It does portray a biaed view of Rajputs towards the Hindu side and doesn't actually bring into play the neutrality which is essential is such endevours. Thank you.

Secondly, there isn't a need for an alternative. Rajputs are Rajputs, that is there heritage and lineage regardless of what others believe. Whether they pray to Allah, Ram, Guru, Bhuddha or Jesus Christ. To say they are outcaste is very prejudiced because nowhere is history has a Rajput been outcasted by his community or indeed the Indian society for their conversion to Islam. This is a misconception that sadly being alleged here, which I believe is down to resentment of the Muslim rule over them. It has been stated that Hinduism Varna was quite dynamic and certain Rajputs were degraded to Jatts, (but it is believed by some historians that was due to their ignoble acts and impiety towards the people or other Kingdoms etc. It is more likely that it was due to some political reason or another and civil unrest has always been the case in India historically during the multi kingdom era.)Therefore alliances were made and the rulers deposed to simple landowners/grazers. Their lineage undoubtedly stayed the same i.e. Sidhu who are descendants of the Yaduvanshi Rai Jaisal Bhatti, but they were at some point deposed and they accepted Jatt status. To say they are now outcastes or casteless is in bad taste in my opinion and very narrow minded. Especially when one considers that great many Rajput Kingdoms became Muslim and none of the Pundits of the age or likewise Hindu Rajput allies doubted their Rajput statuses, so who are we today to question this point fundamentally when in practise during their era this wasn't so? A person's Piety and good character dictates their Varna and the fact that they may be rulers or MahaRaja's would emphasise that role more i.e. a good and just Rajput would become a noble Kshatriya. In fact we have records in scriptures of some Chandra vanshis becoming Brahmins on account of their efforts toward enlightenment. So this argument is baseless and useless by the article writer. I am Muslim and have yet attended many Hindu Mandirs/Temples for various functions and dear friends weddings and I am always welcomed as a Chandra Vanshi Rajput by the Punditji's and they are proud that I have not forgotten my roots despite changing my method of prayer/worship viz Islam. Where this is ultimate acceptance by the preachers of Hinduism then how can one such alleged Professor of the subject allege to the contrary? Obviously not on Religious authority thats for sure.

Another point worth mentioning here is that the Jati argument that is so often brought up by Kunwarji is also quite misleading. The Varna dictates it as a 'Kshatriya' ideal (state of mind and actions). Rajputra is a different entity (hereditary) from this and I will explain why. The Hindu preachers state that anyone can become a Kshatriya regardless of their lineage, it isn't hereditary (as per the above article by Ms Holm) and is a state of mind and nurturing. Therefore if one leaves Hinduism then he is no longer subject to the Varna in that sense. However if one is the son of a Royal house,he is still a Royal. Rajputra is a simple term which unfortunately is being made into something more, it's being made synonymous with Kshatriya as if one becomes one regardless of his acts and deeds just because he is born into a Rajput dynasty. The Kshatriya status is a religious ideal which one strives to meet, thus proving one isn't born a Kshatriya. It's nurtured and learnt. Rajputra is a hereditary title by it's very meaning 'Son of a Royal'. Kunwarji can argue undeniably that this isn't the case, but every Rajput will argue back that this is the case. The mere fact that one cannot 'become' a Rajput without being the son of one proves this point, yet one can become a Kshatriya according to Hindu sources regardless of lineage. I am citing just one of many internet Hindu sites confirming this.

Although Muslim Rajputs may on the surface appear to be 'Kshatriya-less' or Rajputs with no Kshatriya/Martial ideals by Kunwarji's implication. This again is not the case. Islam's dictate of Jihad and having no fear of death when fighting for Truth,Justice and your ancestral land replaces this 'niche' quite easily so we Muslim Rajputs have never had a problem in that respect (there are many forms of Jihad e.g. to fight for Faith, your rights, your land, your honour, your neighbour, the poor, the outcaste etc). A simple bit of research on the article writer's part would have cleared this for him. All these points prove that a Rajput is a product of both nature and nurture. Born into a house of ideals, raised with a Martial upbringing with a strong sense of honour and nobility. Thus we Muslim Rajputs may not be Kshatriyas, but we are Mujahids, which means 'one who engages in Jihad' and the ideals of a Mujahid are much more strenuous and honour bound in the sense that we must act with the knowledge that we will be accountable to our Lord one day. So this accountability enhances the stakes. How can one state that we dont have an Islamic identity? We clearly have one. It was this similarity that made the transition from Hindu Kshatriya Rajput into a Muslim Mujahid Rajput an easy one seeing as the ideals are extremely similar. A perfect example of a perfect Mujahid Royal can be seen in Sultan Salauddin Yusuf Ayyubi of the Crusades who liberated the Holy Land from the Crusaders. His chivalry, nobility, bravery, martial prowess and strong sense of honour and mercy was renowned even by his enemies to this day. A perfect example of a Mujahid who in turn was also of noble Royal blood (being a Sultan and a strict Muslim, unlike the Mughals, Turks and Afghans that the article writer has decided to elaborate who were very poor followers of their faith.) We are also Muslim Royals of Indian origin who strive to such a standard.

To research our roots is not a questioning of our commitment to Islam. I dont know where this has been conceived. It is only natural for a son to learn of his father and forefathers, why they are famed, about their ancient Kingdoms. Should we start to follow their Hindu rituals before going out to war then one can question our commitment to our Faith. Tribal identity will always remain regardless of our financial or political influence. This is encouraged by Islam as the Holy Qur'an itself states that tribes were created in order to differentiate one from another. So now the question of commitment to Islam is thus negated. To say that our research into our lineage and retaining of it in some way implies our sadness in converting to Islam out of sentimental romance of our Hindu past is a very poor opinion on your part which I perceive is more deep rooted in Religious intolerance of Islam. Muslims are extremely proud of their ancestry throughout the world, throughout many races but Islam teaches to keep it in perspective as in your case it is easy to over romanticise this 'pride'and become extreme in your views. Gradually the inferiority/superiority complex creeps in. We are asked to abandon our old faith and adopt a new logic of sorts. This is widely practiced in many modern nations today. Why prejudice against this view if a Muslim Rajput adopts it?

Finally to Wisesabre, we need no way out. We are already here. We never left. It is the narrow minded and prejudiced who must find a way out of their state of mind and return back to the real world.

@ 212.137.45.109
Ok ! right.You seems to better knowledgeable then me, why dont you register to wikipedia and start edting this article? and please type ~ at the end of you comments. Prominent Muslim Rajput goths
 * 1) Naru (im naru)
 * 2) Noon (thats disputed,some think they are rajputs and some think that they are not)
 * 3) Rao (two of my friends say that they are rajputs)
 * 4) Ghore bahe (my relatives are ghore bahe )
 * 5) Baghari (these are also my relatives ,but i doubt if this is there village name or there goth).
 * 6) Bhatti (someone told me that bhattis are of two types ,one of them is rajput and the other is not, but im not sure).

This is all i know.but i know few old people who know alot about the history of rajputs الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 13:32, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Answer to Wisesabre
Thank you for your compliment. I will hopefully register very soon. In answer to your question regarding the Rajput names you mention, I am not well acquainted with them which doesn't mean they aren't authentic. Some subcaste names develop out of many well known dynasties etc. For example Bhatti name has developed out of the Yadavs. The Ghakkar (from Ghakkar Shah) name has developed out of Kayani who was a descendant of Sassan ibn Bauman. Janjua came from King Janamejaya who belonged to the Pandavas (Pandu) who are essentially Kauravas (King Kuru) etc. Each new patriarch of a dynasty will have his own distinct identity over his own future descendants in the ways mentioned above. The Guhilot dynasty itself has many off shoots in this way e.g. Ranawat.

With regards to Bhattis, I know that they are Rajputs although some have alleged Jatt status. They are authentic Rajputs, but some of their fellow Bhatti clan members were believed to have been deposed to Jatt status and their estates seized. Some may have begun calling themselves Jatts as the Jatts united into a new prominent power in Punjab, so being local residents they changed titles with time. I know a few authentic Bhattis who are Rajput by blood (with family trees) but alledge Chaudhry status! Many Rajput families have done this such as Kokhars, Janjua and Sidhu (who are infact descendants of Rai Sidhu who was a Bhatti Rajput).

There are ofcourse imposters but the authentic members of a respective Rajput house will always be aware through some form of record keeping and family trees of where particular branches live etc. Imposters are usually small in number and easily recognisable by locals who are aware of their actual lineage as it's harder to alledge a new clan name in a town you have lived in for centuries.

Another interesting point worth noting here is that the Pakistani army implicitly and explicitly adopted a recruitment policy whereby they would only employ Rajputs as soldiers as they believed at the time that they wouldn't flee from the enemy due to their upbringing and values. Family trees were checked and authenticity was confirmed before being recruited. This unfortunately led to many worthwhile candidates of poorer backgrounds being declined simply due to their lineage. Eventually many candidates applied stating fake tribal identity to gain entry. Authenticity checks were ditched and these families who were victims of this circumstance eventually retained these names of Rajput clans to save face with their new colleagues and friends. This is widely known and did result in many imposters. But I dont feel the word imposter is right to use, it implies a malice. You must understand these people were poor people who had no choice but to use this method to feed their families through this career. It's a weakness on the authentic Rajputs part to look down on one who used their respective family name to help his family survive. But indeed this led to a small explosion if you will of doubtful origin Rajputs.

But with Kunwarji's point regarding why Pakistan having many Rajputs, he himself has mentioned that northern India was the realm of the Rajputs. Northern India eventually became Pakistan. The above made point regarding the 'imposter explosion' is very small in number and as mentioned they are known to be so. They also dont openly state this doubtful Rajput status for for being of found out.

title: Talk:Rajput/Archive 3


text:
Viktor Chernov

Viktor Mikhailovich Chernov (Ви́ктор Миха́йлович Черно́в; December 7 [ O.S. January 25], 1873 – April 15, 1952) was a Russian revolutionary and one of the founders of the Russian Socialist-Revolutionary Party. He was the primary party theoretician or the 'brain' of the party, and was more of an analyst than a political leader. Following the February Revolution of 1917, Chernov was Minister for Agriculture in the Russian Provisional Government and advocating immediate land reform. Later on, he was Chairman of the Russian Constituent Assembly.

Early years
Viktor Chernov was born in Novouzensk, a town southeast of Saratov in Samara guberniya. He was the son of a former serf peasant who had risen to become a low-level functionary in the local civil service.

Chernov attended gymnasium in Saratov, a hotbed of radicalism, where he joined a populist discussion circle in which he studied the works of Nikolay Dobrolyubov and Nikolay Mikhaylovsky. His radical proclivities attracted the attention of the local police and Chernov transferred to school in Iurev for his final year of study.

Chernov enrolled in the Law department of Moscow University, where he once again joined a radical discussion circle, defending populist views against Marxists. He was arrested for his political activities in the spring of 1894 and spent 9 months in Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg. Following his incarceration, Chernov was sentenced to a period of administrative exile in central Russia.

Political career
By the end of the 1880s, he was involved in revolutionary activity. He attended the law faculty of Moscow University and in the early 1890s joined the Narodniks; in 1894, he joined Mark Natanson's "People's Right" (Narodnoe pravo) group, an attempt to unite all the socialist movements in Russia, and with other members was arrested, jailed, and exiled. After marrying Anastasia Sletova in 1898 and spending some time organizing the peasants around Tambov, he went abroad to Zürich in 1899. He joined the Socialist-Revolutionary Party upon its founding in 1901 and became the editor of its newspaper Revolutionary Russia. He returned to Russia after the Revolution of 1905; after boycotting the elections for the First Duma, he won election to the Second Duma and became a leader of the SR faction.

In 1907, he published Philosophical and Sociological Studies in which he espoused the viewpoint of Richard Avenarius. As such, he was one of the Russian Machists criticised by Lenin in Materialism and Empirio-criticism (1909).

Under Alexander Kerensky's provisional government in 1917, Chernov was the Minister for Agriculture. On 17 March the Provisional Government issued its first appeal to the peasant population. It stated that the land question must be solved not by force but by legislation to be passed by the people's representatives. In summer the Stolypin land-tenure laws were suspended. Chernov resigned shortly after the departure of Prince Lvov. During the July days he was detained by the marines near the Tauride Palace and was released only after Trotsky himself interfered. Then on 9 August the elections were postponed until 12 November. Chernov continued his campaign for immediate agrarian reform. The Union of Landowners saw in Chernov its principal enemy. Chernov and his wife were both elected to the Assembly from Tambov. In January 1918 he was Chairman of the Russian Constituent Assembly, which was dissolved by the Bolsheviks shortly after it began meeting. He became a member of an anti-Bolshevik government leading the more moderate Social Revolutionaries in Samara, before fleeing to Europe and then in 1941 to the United States. There he continued to publish his periodical 'Za svobodu' (For Liberty).

Chernov died in New York City in 1952.

title: Viktor Chernov


text: User talk:68.163.165.142

title: User talk:68.163.165.142


text: User talk:67.35.122.210

title: User talk:67.35.122.210


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zombie High

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Sjakkalle (Check!)  07:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Zombie High
A none notable webcomic with found here with no alexa rank. It's hardly ever updated and the archives are a bit bare. No mention of notability anywhere. Stillborn webcomic. - Hahnchen 00:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep all schools Delete. Grutness...  wha?  05:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - nn CLW 11:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, nn, Usrnme h8er 14:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn. Dottore So 21:01, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn. Qaz  ( talk ) 23:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - nn Dragonfiend 05:43, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Hawaiian Railway Society

The Hawaiian Railway Society is a narrow gauge heritage railroad and railroad museum in Ewa, Hawaii, USA, on the island of Oahu. It uses the trackbed of the defunct Oahu Railway and Land Company. It is currently the only operating railroad museum in the U.S State of Hawaii.

History
In 1970, Waialua Agricultural Co. said it would scrap its 0-6-2T locomotive No. 6 because rust and deterioration had reduced the engine to an unsightly liability and posed a danger to children who played on it. John Knaus then contacted Bill Paty, then manager of Waialua Agricultural Company, about saving and restoring the locomotive. John then contacted his boss, Captain Henry Davies, of the Naval Ammunition Depot, Lualualei about having the locomotive moved there since it had the only locomotive facility left on Oahu. This was followed by a letter to Ed Bernsten of the National Railway Historical Society seeking information on organizing a local chapter. John received approval to have No. 6 restored at Lualualei. He then talked to Nick Carter, another rail fan who had expressed interest in saving the Navy mainline on the leeward coast for an operating railroad.

On August 22, 1970, John Knaus, Nick Carter, Luman Wilcox, and Ken Peale met to discuss forming a local chapter of the NRHS. Wilcox was appointed to draw up the temporary by-laws. On August 27 an organizational meeting was held at Cocco's Restaurant with 15 people in attendance. Wilcox successfully proposed forming a local chapter of the NRHS. Thirteen of the fifteen people present signed up. Nominated and elected were: Luman Wilcox for pres., Ken Peale for VP, Nick Carter for Secretary-Treasurer, and John Knaus for National Director. On Oct 9, 1970 the membership met to approve the By-Laws and Charter Night was set for Nov. 13th at Bishop Museum.

On February 17, 1971 a Waialua Agricultural Co. trailer was used to transport WA Co. 6 to Lualualei. Waialua Elementary School students gave the old locomotive a sendoff before it left Waialua. No. 6 was a magnet that brought a group of talent to Lualualei shortly after. A boiler maker named Dave Griner, a welder named Dick Marshall and a machinist named Bob Haney were all joined by others who wanted to lend a hand. On October 13 the Hawaii Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society was granted a charter.

On October 13, 1971 The State of Hawaii, Department of Regulatory Agencies granted the Hawaii Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society a charter of incorporation. The use of Hawaii Chapter, NRHS posed a problem: the name was too long and it really did not say anything about local railroading. At a membership meeting on December 19, 1973, the members voted to use the name of Hawaiian Railway Society without severing itself from the NRHS.

On November 25, 1972, a Saturday, a dedication ceremony marked the restoration of No. 6 after 84 Sundays of restoration work, This educational, non-profit organization was able to get the remaining stretch of track on Oahu, (from Ewa to Nanakuli), placed on the State and National Register of Historic Places. As of early 2009, the Society has restored about 6.5 mi and is working to restore more.

A usual consist features open-air cars built on ex-US Army flatcars. The Hawaiian Railway also rosters a Parlor/Observation car that is used for private excursions. Rolling stock also includes the Merci train boxcar, one of 49 boxcars given to the U.S. by the French railways. One boxcar was sent to each of the 48 states, while the one in the Hawaiian Railway collection was representative of Washington, D.C., as well as the then territory of Hawaii.

Operating locomotives
Four vintage diesels have been restored to operation, three for excursion trains and one as a switcher. The U.S. Navy on Oahu donated three diesels and the U.S. Army donated one locomotive in the 1970s.

Operating diesels include:
 * #423, An ex-USNX Whitcomb 45-Ton switcher.
 * #302, An ex-USNX Whitcomb 45-Ton switcher.
 * #174, An ex-USNX Whitcomb 65-Ton switcher.
 * #7750, An ex-US Army GE 25-Ton switcher.

Steam locomotives

 * #85, Oahu Railway and Land Company (OR&LC), American Locomotive Company (ALCO) (Last remaining Hawaiian road engine)
 * #12, OR&LC, ALCO Slopeback tender engine (Last remaining Hawaiian switching engine)
 * #6, OR&LC (Kauila), Baldwin Locomotive Works engine (First locomotive Purchased by the OR&L)
 * #6, Waialua Agricultural Company, an engine (Only locomotive built in the state of Hawaii)
 * #1, Ewa Plantation Company, Baldwin Locomotive Works engine

Speeders/MOW

 * Speeder(Pop car) #233809 (Ex LK&P Fairmont Railway Motors)
 * Railcar, Inspection (MOW) #62-00249 (Ex U.S. Navy by Kalamazoo Manufacturing Company)
 * Hand car, ex OR&L (Shefield-Fairbanks-Morse)
 * Spray car (MOW), ex OR&L Pacific Chemical & Fertilizer Co. Honolulu

Other engines

 * Two mining electric locomotives used in the Red Hill operations have been cosmetically restored, along with one of their dump cars.

title: Hawaiian Railway Society


text:
Talk:Franz Böhme

Doubtful dates
''8 January 1945-16 October 1945: Armed Forces Commander of Norway and Commander-in-Chief of the 20th Mountain Army. [Böhme succeeded Generaloberst Dr. jur. Lothar Rendulic in both duty positions.'' -- Surely not? How could he have retained command of any German army units after the capitulation? -- Arwel 00:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

"nazi army"
Is this phrase really accurate? Shouldn't it say "wehrmacht" or something more apolitical? -Alex. 12.220.157.93 11:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Reliability of sources cited
I deleted the book by Veit Scherzer as a source because the author published it himself. (He is the owner of the publishing house that published his book.) According to Wikipedia guidelines about self-published sources, the author should at least have been published by a reliable third-party publisher. Do you know of any work by him published by someone other then himself or do you know if he maybe has a degree in history? --Coffee leaf (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * His work has been described as a "masterpiece" by Prof. Dr. Franz W. Seidler of the Bundeswehr University Munich, and as an "indispensable reference book" by a section head of the Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), the Wehrmacht records repository. That's good enough for me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:55, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on the WASt - that seems to me a good source, too. Where did you find the quotation ("indispensable reference book")? Prof. Dr. Seidler, however, seems to be criticized for advocating historical revisionism (according to the English and German Wikipedia articles about him, and at least the German one cites other historians). But then again, I have to admit Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources.--Coffee leaf (talk) 01:41, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It is quoted on the cover of the book itself. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:39, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for answering all these questions.--Coffee leaf (talk) 12:45, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Franz Böhme


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victoria Star 2

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. — J I P | Talk 17:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Victoria Star 2
It is a non-notable 96-foot ferry. -- Kjkolb 00:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --[[Image:Ottawa flag.png|20px]] Spinboy 02:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Ferries and ships are fairly large objects which have individual variation. I think people interested in ships might be interested in such articles. Sjakkalle (Check!)  09:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Sjakkalle CLW 11:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: If the ship were larger, perhaps it would be notable, but we're not even talking about a large oil tanker or cruise ship. It's only 96 feet long and has a total crew of 4 people, smaller and fewer than some fishing boats. The number of ships that of that size or larger over the last few centuries is enormous. Also, "Victoria Star 2" gets only about 30 unique, non-porn search results, many of which are spam sites. -- Kjkolb 12:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * My "keep" votes aren't always to be interpreted as "keep as it is forever and don't ever try to merge it". If we had an article about the cruise company which owns the Victoria Star 2, I would be all for merging this ship and any other ship belonging to it in with that article since it provides more context. Information about a shipping companiy's ships is in my view relevant information which should be included in some form, preferably in the company article (which I don't think we have now). For now, I think the best thing is to let the article stay until we do get an article about the ship company. Sjakkalle (Check!)  12:14, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete I agree with Kjkolb. It's too small a ship to be significant without being further involved in some other affair.  Marcus22 13:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Karol 18:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Per Kjkolb, Marcus; in this case the vessel in question is too insignificant to warrant an entry. Dottore So 20:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. There are literally dozens of ferries in the Georgia Straight, and this is about one of the most minor. -- Corvus 22:14, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Sjakkalle Carioca 22:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Dottore So --JAranda | yeah 01:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Sjakkalle. Ryan Norton T 02:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete or Merge someplace - I read it over and agree with the other delete arguments here Ryan Norton T 08:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is like having individual articles on busses. Gamaliel 11:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is like having individual articles on transit routes. Like Green Line "C" Branch or Lake Shore Limited. The ferry makes one round trip a day, so they are the same thing in this case. --SPUI (talk) 00:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Read the article, this is quite clearly an individual ship and not a route. I just called Washington State Ferries and there are many ships that go between Victoria and the Washington mainland. There are two other, larger, companies that provide regular ferry service there as well, plus any number of charter services. Should I write an article about my car because I regularly drive to Seattle? -- Corvus 17:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * In this case, the route is equivalent to the ship. If your car operated on a regular public schedule as a common carrier, it too would be "ntoable". --SPUI (talk) 18:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Some of the information could be included in a List of ferries in the Georgia Strait, or a similarly-titled article. Mindmatrix 19:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Viktor Chernov

Year of birth
Note: Most sources list 1876 as the year of Chernov's birth. Unfortunately, one of the few sources that does not is the Encyclopædia Britannica.
 * I'm sorry for not signing my last comment, and for failing to notice that the "most sources" that I mentioned were all taken from the Columbia Encyclopedia. I have changed the article to agree with the Britannica, which I believe to be a better source. --Joel7687 00:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Assuming the Britannica to be well-researched, I've now removed the "(?)" following "1873". Regards, David Kernow 05:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Maureen Perrie has it as 1873. While I don't trust Britannica, I do trust her. She's one of the foremost experts on the PSR. Carrite (talk) 04:31, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction on dates
The text is saying "He joined the Socialist-Revolutionary Party upon its founding in 1901 and became the editor of its newspaper Revolutionary Russia." While Personal details box says that he was part of "Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (Mensheviks) (1898–1912)" and was part of "Socialist Revolutionary Party (1912–1940)". The dates simply do not match.

Patriarca da Cabala (talk) 00:16, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

 * lmao it took 6 years. Welso (talk) 17:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Viktor Chernov


text:
Talk:Visual sociology

Interesting as Jerry Krase's input is, I'm not sure if the use of the first person is fitting for a wikipedia article. It would perhaps benefit from a more brief mention (maybe in the third person?) and a link to a new article on the project being described, either internally or externally, to do both the project justice and keep the visual sociology article streamlined and salient.

It could be that I am simply bound up in outmoded discourses of what constitutes an encyclopedic article, with its normative prizing of the objective, authoritative third person mode. That said, there has to be some line drawn between wikipedia articles and, for example, blogs.

I propose an edit and a link to a new article on the project mentioned. Any thoughts?

Bricolab 00:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I took a stab at making the article more encyclopedic
It read like a cultural studies essay, at least to me. I removed the following text (and I hope I'm chronicling these changes in the proper, Wikipedia accepted way):

 * Setting aside for the moment issues about what it is that a camera records, visual sociology suggests a whole range of methods for collecting data.

I suppose the author's concern is with the idea that cameras don't record "reality" objectively, as many people tend to assume. True enough, but this observation wasn't really integrated into the article, and I wasn't sure how to do it.

 * Every culture is composed of jillions of non-verbal images, a fact apparently more easily grasped by anthropologists and cultural studies researchers who are comfortable with studying blanket designs, pottery shapes, totems, fetishes, and graven images; or deconstructing films, advertisements, or television. People in the first world live in the most decidedly visual environment yet produced. Each one of us consumes tens of thousands, maybe millions, of images each day. Even if we don't want to see we cannot avoid it. Jean Baudrillard, the French sociologist, described the image world as a simulacrum, a media world of copies of copies of copies where there is not and has never been an original. Everything in the symbol world refers to other symbols - a world of allusion and trope, maps referring not to territories but only to other maps, news referring to other news, photographs referring to paintings and so on in an endless a game of mirrors.

This looks to me like original research, that is, less like a description of the subfield of visual sociology and more like the author's critical approach to sociology. Even if it raises good points (although in my opinion this argument that "underdeveloped" societies are less visual than industrialized ones is problematic). Can future editors demonstrate exactly who employs these notions in visual sociology and how?

 * Whether from its enlightenment roots in Auguste Comte's arguments against metaphysics and concomitant proposals for the application of a positivist social science to the betterment of mankind; or from the Marxist insistence on Praxis as the guarantor of truth; or from the influence of Heisenberg's uncertainly principle that one cannot describe without changing; or the insights brought by feminists, race-scholars and the postmodernists that social scientists can only be members of society with race, class, and gender; or even from the sort of atheoretical social welfare approach of action sociology; the social sciences have always emphasized practice. Yet consider the arcane and professionalized language used by social scientists or educators. Visual sociology might begin here and signal new ways of communicating not only with each other, but with the vast world of non-sociologists.

 * We live in a world of multimedia communication in which the assumption that text is words is being eclipsed by notions that everything is text (but text is not everything). Pictures and bullets and scents and music and fashion and the body are texts. Discourse is in color, 3D, stereo, surround sound -- it is virtual. Sociology is a form of imagination, education and discourse and it to should be in living color, surround sound -- like everything else an imitation of life. Visual sociologists begin by wondering what sociology has to say; to whom we want to communicate, and how sociology might communicate better. Visual sociology in this sense means straight forward things like selecting photos and other images for school texts, and ways to assess what these images may mean to viewers. Using visual material to present sociology also includes employing films and videos in teaching, e.g, documentaries, drama, experimental video, etc. It may also mean learning how to take the tools of documentary away from communicators without theories or methods, and applying them from a sociological perspective.

I think that this could be reintegrated into the article, if someone knows how to attribute these ideas to practicing visual sociologists.

I hope that these edits don't step on anyone's toes or egos, but I think they make for a more accessible and encyclopedic article.

Birdmessenger 14:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, but...
I can see the case for the amendments made by Birdmessenger. But now the "three approaches" section is now rather lopsided, with one of them much bigger than the other two. Since the 'theory and method' section listing the three approaches was kinda cut-and-pasted in originally, from another article, maybe either (a) remove it all, or (b) someone can write short summaries of the "three approaches" in a more Wikipedia style, with a note that there may be more approaches too. . . ?

Davidgauntlett 23:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Visual sociology


text: File:Divine Intervention film.jpg

title: File:Divine Intervention film.jpg