text:
Talk:Sheep shearing

Create this article
"Sheep shearing" shouldn't redirect to "Sheep shearer", so I suggest to remove the redirect and create an article somewhat along these lines:

 * Summary
 * 1. Historical shearing
 * 2. Shearing today
 * 3. Shearing "workflow"
 * 3.1 The sheep-catching/catching pen
 * 3.2 Shearing
 * 3.3 Fixing cuts, etc.
 * 3.4 Throwing fleece
 * 3.5 Skirting/separating parts of fleece and rolling
 * 3.6 Wool classification
 * 4. Shearer
 * 5. Shearing devices
 * 6. Shearing culture
 * 7. References

Any more ideas on this? Lisa 02:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I think your right. Charles Esson 05:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Sheep Wool
Would a sheep's wool keep growing if it's not sheared? How to keep it warm after shearing?

Yes the wool keeps growing. A sheep is ruminant; the fermetation of their food generates heat; the keys to keeping the animals warm are: a) Don't shear in winter. b) Provide shelter. c) Feed them them well. Charles Esson 05:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

New Zealand and Australian View
In the classing section I altered the article so the wool is put in a bale instead of a bale or bag. I did this because the rest of the article talks about how it is done in Australia and New Zealand.

The problem is Australian and New Zealand represent only about 36% of the wool industry. South Africa (1% of the clip) (1986 personal experance) for instance still uses hand shears for a large proportion of their clip. USA ( 0.7% 0f the clip) use wool bags not bales; how do china do it? At 18% of the clip how chine shears is of interest.

Charles Esson 05:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

 * In South Africa, shearers earn much less than in Australia and New Zealand. As a carry on from apardhied, pay for labourer type jobs is much lower than for "skilled work" (mind you - good luck shearing a sheep your first time around). In these circumstances, it is easier to just hire more workers, than it is to buy machinery.
 * I understand that South Africans do quite well at the "Golden shears" type competitions.
 * Given they are still in use, it is a shame that the photo of hand shears is an antique which is not in usable condition. It is especially a shame because I wanted to steal it for mulesing, but given the general POV issues there the last thing I want to do is imply rusty shears are used for cutting skin off sheep... Garrie 05:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Given they are still in use, it is a shame that the photo of hand shears is an antique which is not in usable condition. It is especially a shame because I wanted to steal it for mulesing, but given the general POV issues there the last thing I want to do is imply rusty shears are used for cutting skin off sheep... Garrie 05:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Wages
I just returned from NZ visit and was told shearers get approx. NZ$1.50 per sheep.--Billymac00 (talk) 18:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Illustration
I don't think the recent addition of Sheepshearing.jpg at Machine Shears adds anything. It shows a sheep held in a grooming stand with its back unevenly shorn and belly still covered. Whatever is going on there is not standard shearing practice.Cstaffa (talk) 15:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I fully agree!Cgoodwin (talk) 04:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Past Tense
There is a reference to the "past tense" of the verb being either "sheared" or "shorn" depending on dialect. I think this is imprecise to the point of being misleading. Obviously there is not just one way of expressing past action in the English language. Without further qualification, "past tense" usually refers to the preterite (simple past tense) and not the perfect tense (which is formed using the present tense of the verb to have and the past participle). The examples given of differences in the "past tense" of the verb to shear are actually examples of differences in the past participle of the verb rather than in the preterite. As far as I'm aware the preterite form of this verb doesn't differ. Preterite = sheared (e.g. "I sheared 100 sheep") Past participle = shorn or sheared (e.g. "I have shorn 100 sheep" or "I have sheared 100 sheep"). Apodeictic (talk) 17:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Quite right. I've changed it, giving examples to show which past tense it applies to.  Richard New Forest (talk) 19:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Cold weather
What exactly happens in colder climes? Do they only shear sheep in the summer, or do they send them back out to the fields to fair freeze in winter? This isn't adequately explained in the article. 86.161.144.200 (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

 * They are normally shorn in summer, and by the time winter comes they've grown plenty enough wool to keep warm. Actually they don't need too much fleece for warmth – and of course other similarly-sized animals with quite short fur manage perfectly well, such as most goats, dogs, calves etc.  More often their fleece makes them too hot.

 * Late last autumn I sheared one of our ewes because she had fly strike. She then moulted all the rest of her wool, leaving her completely naked just as the frosts began.  She did seem cold, so I got her a dog coat – but after a few weeks she had grown a centimetre or so of wool and didn't need it any more, even when we had several days of minus 10 C over Christmas.  (In fact she'd got so fat in the yard on all the extra hay that she didn't fit in the coat any more...)

 * We do need to make the timing of shearing clearer in the article. Richard New Forest (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Sheep are shorn in all seasons, depending on management requirements. Ewes are normally shorn prior to lambing, but consideration is made as to the welfare of the lambs by not lambing during cold climate winters. Shorn sheep tolerate frosts well, but young sheep especially will die in cold, wet windy weather (even in cold climate summers). In this event they are shedded for several nights until the weather clears. Some sheep may also be shorn with stud combs which leave more wool on the animal, giving greater protection. The moult that Richard has referred to is as a result of sickness, fly strike etc. and this leaves a sheep quite bare after all the fleece has lifted.Cgoodwin (talk) 22:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

 * In Britain shearing is almost always done in summer, but I don't know about elsewhere.

 * My fly-strike sheep is a Shetland, and they moult naturally in spring, so that may be why she moulted quite readily after the fly-strike. She's OK now, despite having had an area of 40 by 50 cm stripped of skin.  Very fat though...  Richard New Forest (talk) 20:28, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Shearing Season? Climate considerations?
I came to the article seeking information about the time of year when shearing is done and found no information. The article is lopsided with its down-under orientation. What health considerations go into deciding when the shear sheep? The article badly needs expansion by people who have knowledge of these things. Thanks.Telpardec (talk) 12:23, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Globalize
I noticed the history section focuses on Australia and New Zealand. While admittedly those are among the top producers of wool today, sheep-shearing is over 5,000 years old. I have no direct knowledge of the subject, but I think this ought to be addressed. Lockesdonkey (talk) 23:19, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Rousing
Please would someone inject a consistent use of their personal favourite name for the highly skilled person that works in the shearing shed. I like Rousabout. I'm not sure the latest link provided is appropriate unless its to an etymologist talking technical stuff. Eddaido (talk) 22:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I think the link should remain and sources need to be consulted to figure out how to deal with different spellings of the word or just use the proper spelling. Growing up working in Australian shearing sheds, I only ever heard/used "rousie" but it is absolutely a corruption/shortening of the word roustabout. Donama (talk) 22:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

 * I think your "corruption" only relates to etymology. And about spelling try the Google test and relate it to the occupation under discussion. I did. I believe there are Oxford English dictionaries for both Australian and New Zealand usages, what do they say? Eddaido (talk) 23:48, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

 * rouseabout  /cannot type characters/ n. & v. NZ & Aust > n. an unskilled labourer or odd jobber, esp. on a farm. > v.intr. work as a rouseabout. rousie /cannot type characters/ n. NZ & Aust. colloq. = ROUSEABOUT.

 * quotation from: The New Zealand Oxford Dictionary Edited by Tony Deverson and Graeme Kennedy. This dictionary is the first large-scale English dictionary especially prepared for New Zealand users. Compiled at the New Zealand Dictionary Centre in Wellington, it reflects research into New Zealand words and their use, including new words, and new uses of older words that have evolved in New Zealand. The dictionary also reflects research into international English conducted by Oxford dictionary centres worldwide. The New Zealand Oxford Dictionary contains over 100,000 definitions, including over 12,000 New Zealand entries and a wide range of encyclopedic information. BIBLIOGRAPHIC INFORMATION Publisher: Oxford University Press Print Publication Date: 2005 Print ISBN-13: 9780195584516 Published online: 2005 Current Online Version: 2005 DOI: 10.1093/acref/9780195584516.001.0001 eISBN: 9780191735226

 * No entry for (my) rousabout.

 * A solution might be to use rousie. Eddaido (talk) 02:14, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, we are currently using "rouseabout/rousie" anyway. Thanks for checking this out. Donama (talk) 02:16, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Redirection from 'Shearing'
I was redirected to 'Sheep shearing' after entering 'Shearing' while actually searching for the pianist 'George Shearing' whose given name I didn't remember. I had expected to be directed to a 'Disambiguation' page that would offer a list of options to choose from. It was only when I explicitly typed in 'Shearing disambiguation' that I was directed towards the page titled Shear. Merely by accident I spotted an expression including 'shearing' that didn't seem to have anything to do with the term 'to shear', sheep, or wool further down that page. So I kept scrolling. The section titled 'Surnames' eventually brought me to the musician's wikipedia article I was really looking for. But before that I was close to giving up. I just couldn't imagine there wasn't anything on George Shearing... There seem to be several issues at the same time concerning this obstructed search. I feel I shouldn't have been redirected to 'Sheep Shearing' in the first place. I feel I shouldn't be directed directly to the 'Shear' page on entering 'Shearing'. At least there ought to be somekind of hint or an alternative link. It might actually be a good thing to have the surname 'Shearing' on that 'Shear' page - as kind of an 'extra' (the logic seemingly being to guide people searching for articles related to the participle or adjective 'shearing' and related or derived terms to the respective articles via the base form.) There ought to be a preliminary page for 'Shearing' branching off to further options, I guess.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Korinthus (talk • contribs) 21:14, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

World Championships need updating.
It currently says the upcoming one is in 2019. Crushcastles23 (talk) 06:22, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sheep shearing


text:
Talk:Meals on Wheels

Untitled
Some parts of User:Doco's 20 April 2006 edit were substantially similar to sections of MOWAA's History page. (e.g. MOWAA: "The first American home-delivered meal program began in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in January of 1954." vs. Doco: "The first U.S. home-delivered meal programmes [sic] began in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in January of 1954.") I rewrote those parts. --Meals-on-Wheels of White Plains 18:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

About whether Meals on Wheels operations are "programs" or "schemes," "schemes" does not make sense, at least in American English. --Meals-on-Wheels of White Plains 18:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I just rewrote most of the article, because previous versions contained substantial factual errors. MOW Indianapolis pointed out some this below. Things that should still be added include History and MOW outside the U.S. --Meals-on-Wheels of White Plains 16:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

As of now, the pages name is Meals on Wheels. The article name seems like a Wandillized (from Willy on Wheels and vandalism) page. Just remember the Willy-style page move maneuver. --SuperDude 02:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Meals on Wheels, Inc. Indianapolis, Indiana, United States: The definition of "Meals on Wheels" currently given does not take nonprofit agencies into account. For example, Meals on Wheels, Inc., Indianapolis, (www.mealsonwheelsindy.org), receives no federal, state or local government funding, but is wholly supported by private donations and the United Way of Central Indiana. Meals on Wheels, Inc. uses more than 1,550 volunteers to deliver two meals to around 450 clients each weekday.

Other privately funded MOWs in the greater Indianapolis area include Meals on Wheels of Hancock County; Meals on Wheels of Tippecanoe County; Meals on Wheels, Manchester; Meals on Wheels of Hamilton County; and Shelby County Meals on Wheels, Inc.

Another distinction to be aware of is that in the case of Meals on Wheels, Inc., Indianapolis, meals are delivered not only to elderly, but also to homebound disabled individuals.

 * I guess this has the distinction of being one of the very few legitimate articles that end in "on Wheels". Are there any others? *Dan T.* 05:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

this is my new favorite article because it ends in "on wheels" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.221.55 (talk) 13:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

MOWAAF study on hunger

 * How is this section relevant to the article? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The section on hunger is very relevant. The study cited in that section has shown that hunger is a serious problem in the United States, and that MOWAA is trying to address it. People are dying everyday, not just from actual starvation, but also from complications brought on by malnutrition. MOWAA's goal is that no one go hungry. I added the section titled "MOAFF Study on Hunger" because it's important for people to know the statistics and the importance of what this organization is doing. First Lady Michelle Obama has been supporting the program publicly since she was made aware of the study and its gravity. I don't work for MOWAA or MOWAAF, but I do volunteer with meal deliveries and much-needed contributions. I appreciate your question and hope I've answered it adequately. I would very much like for this section to remain in the article because it's important and something most Americans aren't aware of. Thank you, -Michael Jones 68.100.34.116 (talk) 18:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC

 * Hi. I'm not trying to be perverse, superior, holier-than-thou, arrogant or pompous. Never-the-less, I'm probably going to sound like I am, in which case I apologise, and advise that this is not my intention.
 * This article is about Meals on Wheels. Worldwide.
 * Yes, I agree that "hunger is a serious problem in the United States", and I agree that "MOWAA is trying to address it".
 * I agree with pretty much all of what you say. I agree that these things are important.
 * And so are Global Warming, AIDS, Civil War, Racism, Poverty, Hunger in the rest of the world, and dozens of other problems.
 * However, this article is about Meals on Wheels. Worldwide.
 * What have ANY of these issues got to do with an article about Meals on Wheels?
 * In other words: Yes, they are real issues; Yes, they are important; Etc.; Etc.
 * But how are they relevant?
 * By-the-way, you simply asserting "The section on hunger is very relevant", is simply not good enough.
 * I can assert: "I am the most important and powerful person in the world." However, I am fairly confident you would want me to supply some relevant supporting evidence before you paid any attention to such a claim.
 * Yes, what I say may be quite true. But even so, that doesn't make it relevant.
 * "I appreciate your question and hope I've answered it adequately." - No, sorry, I'm afraid you haven't.
 * "I would very much like for this section to remain in the article because it's important and something most Americans aren't aware of." - These are laudable goals which I'm happy to support. However, I'm not convinced that this article is the right place.
 * This article is about "Meals on Wheels", not about hunger, and certainly not about "Hunger in the elderly in America".
 * Therefore, as I've said, "How is this section relevant to the article?" Pdfpdf (talk) 14:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, I appreciate your questioning, and I'm not offended. If users didn't question content, there's no telling what would be published, relevant or not. I was probably vague in my response to you, and if so, I apologize. I included the Study on Hunger because it was commissioned by the Meals on Wheels Association Foundation of America itself. In the context of Meals on Wheels, it's important that people realize that meals aren't simply delivered as a luxury or convenience--- that folks are actually at risk of death (indeed, many have died), and MOWAA's primary mission is to eliminate this sad fact. With awareness of the gravity of the hunger situation, MOWAA will see an increase in funding, private contributions and volunteers to prepare and deliver meals, and the problem might therefore eventually be solved. My concern is that people who visit the Meals on Wheels article won't necessarily have a firm grasp of the gravity of Hunger in America and the fact that shut-ins are dying every day because they don't have access to basic nutrition. MOWAA's copyrighted slogan is "So no senior goes hungry," but as the study states, hunger and the remedy of Meals on Wheels extends to many other groups besides the elderly. It's all well and good to feed the needy here and there, where it's currently possible, but the Study on Hunger illustrates the staggering numbers of people (old and young) who are dying or at serious risk, and Meals on Meals will feed these people if the resources allow. The relevance to my inclusion is that Meals on Wheels might eventually solve this serious problem if people are made aware of the situation. If so many are dying or at risk due to malnutrition in the United States--- one of the richest countries in the world--- the study really suggests that hunger is everywhere, but that most of us who have food aren't aware of it. Meals on Wheels and hunger are intrically linked, in that those who receive meal deliveries would otherwise go hungry. MOWAFF commissioned the study because they wanted to address the findings via their misssion, and hopefully eliminate hunger in America. Since Meals on Wheels headquarters ordered the study, I believe it's important (and relevant) to Wikipedia's "Meals on Wheels" article. I sincerely appreciate your attention to this, and I hope you will concede that the section on the study is relevant. I respectfully ask that you not cite the section for deletion. I know you are being diligent and thoughtful, but I assure you that the study is an important one, and that if the public is made more aware of it via this article, lives will be saved. Please don't cite the section on the study for deletion; its presence there will undoubtedly save lives because MOWAA's works will no doubt expand as a result. As a volunteer, I have already witnessed expansion since the study was published. With the study referenced on Wikipedia, there will surely be more awareness. I hope I have done a better job this time of explaining the relevance and am grateful for the opportunity to have expanded on my original answer. Sincerely, -Michael Jones  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nova8109 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Hi again.

 * First, the easy stuff:
 * Please sign your postings with 4 tilde (i.e. ~ )
 * You must have noticed that I removed the "relevance" template some time ago, right after I rearranged and reorganised stuff to provide some context for the section.
 * It must be clear to you that I am not disputing that hunger in the US is an important problem.
 * Never-the-less, with respect to the fact that this is an article about Meals on Wheels world wide, the way the article is currently set up, the link to a section about a study on hunger in the US is, at best, "tenuous".

 * Now the hard bit: (In my biassed opinion) What needs to happen is that the link needs to be clearer and more obvious. There are a lot of words in what you've written above, but most of them are about the importance of the hunger issue, which, from my point of view, is not in dispute. (Well, not with me, anyway.)
 * More needs to be added to the article to make the link clearer, and hence the relevance of the section obvious.
 * I think you may have hit on the way forward by mentioning the slogan "so no senior goes hungry". I think this slogan provides the basis for the link & hence relevance.
 * (e.g. thinking out loud:
 * fred: How is a section on "hunger in the US" relevant to an article on "Meals on Wheels world wide"?
 * bill: Well, it isn't directly relevant. However, MOWAA's slogan is "so no senior goes hungry".
 * fred: How are they going to achieve that?
 * bill: Well, a good place to start would be to understand the extent and nature of the problem, wouldn't it?
 * fred: Yeah, I guess so.
 * bill: So commissioning a study to investigate the problem would probably be a good idea, wouldn't it?
 * fred: Aaaahh. I get it.)
 * As a matter of academic reflection, I would note that, to me, it seems that MOWAA have a slightly different emphasis in their list of priorities to other MoW organisations. I'm wondering whether this is actually the case, and if so, why MOWAA have a primary emphasis on addressing hunger, whereas in other countries, (where, perhaps, other organisations (e.g. churches) address hunger), MoW have quite different sets of priorities. Interesting.
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 07:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

How is 1943 "following World War II?"
The article presently says "The first home delivery of a meal on wheels following World War II was made by the WVS in Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire, England in 1943. " This is puzzling, since the war ended two years later. How can this be fixed so it makes sense? Was this the first meal on wheels delivery, ever? Was it the merely the first one in "," which seems pretty trivial. Perhaps it means "following the start of World War II." Edison (talk) 16:48, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Check the source. If unsourced, add a "sourced needed" tag or a "clarify" tag. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The article says, before the statement I questioned, that some form of meals on wheels existed in England during the Blitz, which would mean it existed by 1941, making dubious the interpretation that "following World War II" meant "following the start of World War II." Edison (talk) 16:55, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
 * If there is no clarification and referencing, I will remove all statements about "Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire, England" in 1943. Edison (talk) 01:59, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

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Added New Source
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added one of the Meals on Wheels programs in the United States under the section of Modern programmes, as it is a good example that reflected the contribution of Meals on Wheels to the older adults, especially during the crisis when food insecurity and physical isolation made it harder for seniors to get adequate resources.

Foodnet Meals on Wheels is an age-friendly organization in Tompkins County, with a mission to provide nutritious meals and healthcare services for older adults. In response to the COVID-19, Foodnet Meals on Wheels updated their precaution measurements to ensure food supply. An every-other-day schedule was applied to home food delivery, by which people received once a hot meal with a frozen meal for the other day. Nutrition services including nutrition counseling, assessment and education were conducted through telephone.

--Jeremyupupup (talk) 00:07, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Meals on Wheels


text: User talk:71.113.32.101

title: User talk:71.113.32.101


text:
Talk:Treehouse of Horror XV

"Goofs" Goof
Speaking of goofs, who the f*** had the, uh, initiative, to do this? What kind of sick person watches the Simpsons, and checks how many buttons they've got on their coats, or how often they shave, etc.? And especially, on that last comment... What is your problem?! You were measuring the breast size of a cartoon character?! Why can't you just buy a magazine, or something (or possibly consider how close the shot was to her), you poor, lonely bastard?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by WAS (talk • contribs)
 * I'm not gonna go as far as insulting the contributer(s) for the "Goofs" section, but I think most (if not all) of the goofs should be removed. None are really important enough to mention. -Buzda 09:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I didn't notice the buttons on the coat or anything else but the breast size thing was a pretty obvious difference. it was like watching the episode Large Marge. If you couldn't see the difference or you didnt think it was worth commenting on you must be pretty retarded.

 * I dont know who would but it should be mentioned if someone does do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.174.135.175 (talk • contribs)

 * As far as goofs such as the number of buttons etc are concerned, I reguarly notice these just while casually watching an episode. They are often very obvious and doesn't require someone actually counting buttons to make sure the number doesn't change. DarkSideOfTheSpoon 16:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Lose the trivia section
Please see WP:Trivia and Avoid trivia sections in articles L0b0t 02:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No. get stuffed. Trivia sections are an integral part of the episode. If i ever see something i dont get then i come to wikipedia and it explains the cultural reference or parody.

Quality Standards tag
I have removed the quality stadards tag after recategorizing the trivia & cultural references sections. This episode appears to be relatively consistent with the others. If someone adds the heading again, could they please reference what the specific problem is (other than the # of buttons on Ned's vest :)SkierRMH 07:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Cultural reference
at the beginning, when the "Keeping it Kodos" segemnt ends and the episode title is shown, and the alien tentacle hammers the roman numerals in the stone. this is clearly a reference to a show from past years, but i don't know what. perhaps we could find out and put it in a Cutural References section PowderedToastMan 09:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The Ned Zone/The Twilight Zone
Could someone take a look at the Twilight Zone episode The Purple Testament? Someone there claimed that ToH:XV referenced TPT. The section is badly worded. As I haven't seen ToX:XV myself, I don't feel comfortable doing a rewrite. samwaltz 19:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Happiness is a warm poppy

 * It was not an unsorced speculative theory. In my edition of The Comeplete Peanuts 1959-1960 there is clearly a strip where Lucy hugs Snoopy and comments "Happiness is a warm puppy!". Also, in 1962, there was a book written in 1962 that also is the same quote. Is there any evidence that against "Happiness is a warm poppy" was a reference to "Happiness is a warm puppy"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.103.11.210 (talk) 21:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

 * To say that the writers based that particular line of dialogue on a Peanuts comic is speculation unless you have a reliable 3rd party source that says The Simpsons writers based that line on the Peanuts strip. Please see WP:OR, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:WAF, WP:EPISODE, and WP:AVTRIV.  Cheers. L0b0t

Belly of the boss cultural reference
I believe there's connections to the book Fantastic Voyage II: Destination Brain by Isaac Asimov in "the belly of the boss". In the book American and Russian scientists uses a vehicle in microscopic dimensions to enter a scientists brain via the bloodlines.

title: Talk:Treehouse of Horror XV


text:
BC Forest Discovery Centre

The BC Forest Discovery Centre, located in Duncan, chronicles the history of logging in British Columbia, Canada. It is a 100 acre site with 2.5 km of operational narrow gauge railway.

History
G.E. (Gerry) Wellburn, a collector, was the founder of the Centre which opened in 1965 as the Cowichan Valley Forest Museum. It was later known for a time as the BC Forest Museum.

Collection
There are indoor and outdoor exhibits spread over a 100 acre site, including operating steam and gas rail equipment plus logging trucks. There are forest and nature trails, picnic area, playground, gift shop and a concession. At the Centre visitors can explore a reconstructed logging camp, forest fire lookout tower and the ranger's station.

The centre has its own heritage railway, a train pulled by a century-old steam locomotive which was once used in the filling in of the North Vancouver harbour. Along the route is one of the first pre-fabricated school houses, a trestle over Somenos Lake and an operational water wheel.

The Forest Discovery Centre has seven steam locomotives in its collection: In addition, these diesel locomotives are also part of the collection:
 * 1) Mayo Lumber Company #3 Shay (class B) (was on loan to Kettle Valley Steam Railway 1995–2009)
 * 2) Hillcrest Lumber Company #1 Shay (class B) ( gauge)
 * 3) Bloedel Stewart and Welch  Shay (class B) #1 (})
 * 4) Shawnigan Lake Lumber #2 Climax (class B) ( standard gauge)
 * 5) Hillcrest Lumber Company #9 Climax (class B) ( standard gauge) - the only operational Climax locomotive in Canada)
 * 6) Cowichan Valley Railway #24 Vulcan 0-4-0T "Suzie" ( gauge)
 * 7) Cowichan Valley Railway #25 Vulcan 0-4-0T "Samson" ( gauge)
 * 1) Cowichan Valley Railway #23 "Sandy" Plymouth 8 ST
 * 2) Cowichan Valley Railway #27 "Handy Andy" speeder
 * 3) British Columbia Forest Products #9 Whitcomb Locomotive Works (80 ST 0-4-4-0 diesel)

Site
The site has a reconstructed fire watch tower, which offers a commanding view of the site and nearby Somenos Marsh.

The Centre borders the Somenos Marsh Wildlife Refuge and Ducks Unlimited pond. Many types of water fowl and other birds can be found in this area. Red-Eared Slider turtles can be found sunning in the field next to the marsh.

Two bald eagles have built a nest in the stand of trees west of the North Cowichan Station at the centre's lower grounds. These eagles successfully raised eaglets in 2006 after relocating from a previous nest site along the South Forester's Walk the previous summer. There are currently three eaglets in their nest. The nest is best viewed by standing at the flag pole outside the Wellburn Building at the lower grounds.

title: BC Forest Discovery Centre


text:
Robert Arthur

Robert Arthur may refer to:

 * Robert Arthur Jr. (1909–1969), American novelist and radio scriptwriter
 * Robert Arthur (film producer) (1909–1986), American film producer
 * Robert Arthur (radio announcer) (1921–1997), of "Ken and Bob Show"
 * Robert Alan Aurthur (1922–1978), American screenwriter, director and TV producer
 * Robert Arthur (actor) (1925–2008), American actor
 * Robert Arthur (cricketer) (1866–1948), Barbadian cricketer
 * Bobby Arthur (1947–2023), English boxer
 * Gordon Arthur (bishop) (Robert Gordon Arthur, 1909–1992), Anglican bishop in Australia

title: Robert Arthur


text:
Talk:Computability logic

Today (7 Oct. 2016) I updated the references list. It is long compared with the article itself, but I intend to significantly expand the content of the article. The entry is not marked as a stub but it is in fact a stub. User:Anastz5

The characterization of classical logic as a "formal theory of proof" seems to me to be quite wrong, especially given that classical mathematics is largely (entirely?) proof-irrelevant. I think it would be better to characterize classical logic as a "formal theory of truth" and, if proof must be mentioned, to characterize intuitionistic logic (or perhaps intuitionistic type theory) as a "formal theory of proof". Intuitionistic logic is often differentiated from classical logic precisely because it dispenses with the concept of truth in favor of provability. 174.126.108.52 (talk) 07:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I find the remarks of the two skeptics below subjective and unsubstantiated. In any case, they have been made three years ago and time has clearly spoken in my favor who at that time criticized those comments. I have just harvested and added a dozen new references. The sheer volume of those publications, and the prestige and quality of their venues (as high as one can go), speak for themselves. Note that all but one of the numerous papers from the References list appeared during the last three years, after the following discussions took place. This is a new but rapidly evolving project.

For the same reason, this Wikipedia article should probably be labeled as a stub. It should be made longer and more informative. Including some examples and illustrations would be good. I am not a good writer, so hope somebody else can help here. David. November 10, 2008.

This entry strikes me as self-advertising by Mr. Japaridze. There are quite a few "computational logics" like this one; an expert should decide whether Mr Japaridze's theory is such a break-through as to deserve a single entry to itself.

 * We have User:Charles Stewart's opinion on this. Charles Matthews 08:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Well what was his opinion? I'm a graduate student in logic studying computability and I read through a fair fraction of his paper before giving up in disinterest.  It seems to be valid work (as I would expect given where it is published) but I saw nothing very earth-shattering about it.  Most of it was fairly natural (though notationally complex) generalizations of the standard theory of two player games and the well known isomorphism between sentences written in prenex normal form and games.  I'm not saying his work isn't usefull or interesting but there is no reason to believe it is any more so than the many various logics published in mathematics and CS journals.  In particular the fact that the computability logic page seems to be mostly papers by him suggests that it is just another academics research program that may or may not turn out to amount to much.  I don't have a problem with their being a page somewhere on wikipedia describing it but I'm getting tired or running into links about it whenever I'm editing pages on computability theory.  At the very least something should be done to make it clear this isn't some widely accepted/used theory. Logicnazi

 * Well, this is a reference work, and will over-inform some people accordiong to their needs. I would agree that there were initially too prominent and too many links to it. I kept an eye on those for a while. Any that are misplaced can be removed, within reason. User:Chalst is actually very positive about the underlying work. (By the way your chosen user name will not always get you a fair hearing here.) Charles Matthews 10:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I have read 5+ papers on computability logic (over 300 pages altogether!), and I find that stuff superior-quality. It is probably premature to guess whether it is going to eventually make a real impact, but it certainly does deserve the few bytes of wiki space that it takes. It is a shame that there is so little material on logic here, so why not welcome more articles like this one? Look at some other areas, where every little thing, event or word has a separate article devoted to it.

As for self-advertising, I share User:Charles Stewart's doubts. A researcher who publishes in APAL and TCS is unlikely to bother advertising here. The experts he would want to impress trust journals and not wikipedia. Also, this wiki article is not quite written in a professional style, and is fairly incomplete. Looks more like a student's work to me. And in any case, if scientists stop being lazy or arrogant and start writing on at least their own work for wiki, that would only be better for the quality, breadth and depth of articles. David. November 13, 2005.

Here is the expert User:Charles Stewart's opinion:

PS. A point about the "no research" rule: the interpretation given at the authoritative Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not says:
 * 1) While I'm sure that whoever did these edits has some investment, careerwise and/or emotional, in the topic, there are reasons to doubt it is Japaridze, namely whoever it is hasn't done a terribly good job of summarising the topic; I would normally expect a researcher to do a better job than this;
 * 2) I don't follow the detail of Japaridze's work myself, but a close colleague of mine does, and it is the real thing: solid research work that is well-motivated and perhaps has the potential to make a real impact;
 * 3) The edits are gung-ho and lack perspective but they were not abusive and they have stopped. Take care when reintroducing appropriate perspective not to throw away perfectly good content: that cure would be worse than the disease.  Charles Stewart 21:55, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Primary research such as proposing theories and solutions, original ideas, defining terms, coining words, etc. If you have done primary research on a topic, publish your results in normal peer-reviewed journals. Wikipedia will report about your work once it becomes part of accepted human knowledge. But of course you don't have to get all of your information on entries from peer-reviewed journals. See No original research.

 * which I understand as saying that once ideas have passed the test of peer review, they are fair game for summarisation on Wikipedia. So Japaridze's work passes that test.  Charles Stewart 22:01, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Computability logic


text:
Uruguayan Primera División

The Liga Profesional de Primera División ( American Spanish, First Division Professional League, local: , First Division), named "Torneo Uruguayo Copa Coca-Cola" for sponsorship reasons, is the highest professional football league in Uruguay organized by the Uruguayan Football Association (AUF).

The first championship was held in 1900, being an amateur competition until 1932 when the league became professional. From 1900 to the 2014–15 season there have been 111 first division seasons.

In 2011, the Uruguayan Primera División was regarded as the 23rd most difficult football league in the 21st century by the International Federation of Football History & Statistics (IFFHS).

If considered the same club, Peñarol/CURCC is the most successful Uruguayan club with 51 titles. Otherwise, it is Nacional with 49 titles. Of clubs to win titles, only Rampla Juniors did not win multiple titles. Rampla Juniors and Wanderers were the only clubs to not win titles consecutively.

History
The Uruguayan Primera División was held by the first time in 1900. Between 1923 and 1925, under the Uruguayan football schism, a dissident league, the Federación Uruguaya de Football, was established. The body operated in parallel with the official Association (AUF). After an intervention by the Uruguayan government to impose the dissolution of the FUF, in 1926 a Provisional Council ("Concejo Provisorio") organised a championship to unify the two organizations. Peñarol was the winner of the Serie A of the tournament. Nevertheless, neither the AUF nor the FIFA recognised the titles of the championships organized by FUF or CP.

From 1930 to 1975, either Nacional or Peñarol won every title. This streak was finally broken when Defensor won its first title in 1976. Besides Nacional or Peñarol, no other club has won titles consecutively. Both Peñarol (1958 to 1962 and 1993 to 1997) and Nacional (from 1939 to 1943) hold the record title streaks winning five titles consecutively. The longest period of time without neither Peñarol nor Nacional winning the title was from 1987 to 1991, when Defensor, Danubio, Progreso, Bella Vista, and again Defensor won the five tournaments played during that period.

After 1994, the competition was divided in two stages, called the Opening Championship (Torneo Apertura) and Closing Championship (Torneo Clausura), with an end-of-season two-legged final match between the winners of these two tournaments.

Originally, like other South American football leagues, the league was contested according to the calendar year, from austral summer to summer in the Southern Hemisphere. In 2005, the league started to play the "European season", from boreal summer to summer in Northern Hemisphere starting in August, with the aim of preventing clubs from losing many players in the middle of the season. In the first semester of 2005, a special short season was held to decide the qualification to international competition. In the 2005–06 season, the winners of the Apertura and Clausura tournaments played a two (or three) legged play-off; the winner of that playoff played against the best team in the aggregate table to decide the 2005–06 season champion.

In the 2006–07 season, the competition was reduced to 16 clubs. The season of 2008–09 was intended to be the last one to be played in "European season", as the system appeared to be unable to prevent clubs from losing players between the Apertura (opening) tournament and the Clausura (closing). However, the transition did not take place for several years. After a regular 2015–16 season was played, a short 2016 was played in the latter half of the year, with the full calendar year system in place once again beginning with the 2017 season.

Participating teams
A total of 60 teams have participated in the Primera Division since its inception in 1900. Nacional has played the most seasons followed by Peñarol/CURCC. Peñarol and Nacional are also the only two teams to have never been relegated out of the Primera Division. Of the so-called 'minor' teams the record for most seasons lies with Montevideo Wanderers.

2024 season
All statistics pertain only to the Uruguayan Championships organized by the Uruguayan Football Association (AUF), not including FUF tournaments of 1923, 1924 and the 1926 Consejo Provisorio tournament in seasons counted. The founding dates of clubs are those declared by the clubs themselves involved. The column "stadium" reflects the stadium where the team play their home matches, but does not indicate that the team in question owns the stadium.

List of champions (1900–present)
All tournaments organized by the Uruguayan Football Association (AUF) except where indicated. No records for topscorers during the period 1900–1931.

Titles by club

 * Clubs participating in the 2023 Uruguayan Primera División season are denoted in bold type.
 * Clubs no longer active are denoted in italics.

All-time top scorers
The chart includes championships since 1900 to present days.

title: Uruguayan Primera División


text:
Devil's Lake State Park

Devil's Lake State Park may refer to the following:
 * Devils Lake State Parks (North Dakota), consisting of:
 * Grahams Island State Park
 * Black Tiger Bay State Recreation Area
 * Devils Lake State Recreation Area in Oregon, formerly known as Devil's Lake State Park
 * Devil's Lake State Park (Wisconsin)

title: Devil's Lake State Park


text:
The Doom That Came to Sarnath

"The Doom That Came to Sarnath" (1920) is a fantasy short story by American writer H. P. Lovecraft. It is written in a mythic/fantasy style and is associated with his Dream Cycle. It was first published in The Scot, a Scottish amateur fiction magazine, in June 1920.

Plot
According to the tale, more than 10,000 years ago, a race of shepherd people colonized the banks of the river Ai, in a land called Mnar, forming the cities of Thraa, Ilarnek, and Kadatheron (not to be confused with Kadath), which rose to great intellectual and mercantile prowess. Craving more land, a group of these hardy people migrated to the shores of a lonely and vast lake at the heart of Mnar, founding the city of Sarnath.

But the settlers were not alone. Not far from Sarnath was the ancient grey-stone city of Ib, inhabited by a queer race who had descended from the Moon. Lovecraft described them as "in hue as green as the lake and the mists that rise above it.... They had bulging eyes, pouting, flabby lips, and curious ears, and were without voices." These beings worshipped a strange god known as Bokrug, the Great Water Lizard, although it was more their physical form that caused the people of Sarnath to despise them.

The citizens of Sarnath killed all the creatures inhabiting Ib, destroyed the city, and took their idol as a trophy, placing it in Sarnath's main temple. The next night, the idol mysteriously vanished, and Taran-Ish, the high-priest of Sarnath, was found dead. Before dying, he had scrawled a single word onto the empty altar: "DOOM".

One thousand years later, Sarnath was at the zenith of both its power and decadence. Nobles from distant cities were invited to the feast in honor of Ib's destruction. That night, however, the revelry was disrupted by strange lights over the lake, heavy greenish mists, and the tidal marker, the granite pillar Akurion, was mostly submerged. Soon, many visitors fled, maddened by fear.

After this, some of the survivors reported seeing the long-dead inhabitants of Ib peering from the windows of the city's towers instead of the king and his retinue, while others refused to say exactly what they had seen. Those who returned saw nothing of those unlucky enough to be left behind; only empty marsh, many water lizards, and most disturbingly, the missing idol. Ever since then, Bokrug remained the chief god in the land of Mnar.

Inspiration
The influence of Lord Dunsany on the story can be seen in the reference to a throne "wrought of one piece of ivory, though no man lives who knows whence so vast a piece could have come", which evokes the gate "carved out of one solid piece" of ivory in Dunsany's "Idle Days on the Yann".

Though Sarnath is a historical city in India —the place where Buddha first taught— Lovecraft said that he thought he invented the name independently.

Connections to other works by Lovecraft
In the story "The Quest of Iranon", the title character says, "I...have gazed on the marsh where Sarnath once stood." When the narrator of "The Nameless City" sees the ruins of the story, he says he "thought of Sarnath the Doomed, that stood in the land of Mnar when mankind was young, and of Ib, that was carved from grey stone before mankind existed." In At the Mountains of Madness, the city of the Elder Things is described as "a megalopolis ranking with such whispered prehuman blasphemies as Valusia, R'lyeh, Ib in the land of Mnar, and the Nameless City of Arabian Desert."

The inhabitants of Ib are known in the works of Lin Carter as the Thuum'ha.

References in other media

 * Mike Mignola's Batman: The Doom That Came to Gotham is an Elseworlds story which combines the character Batman with various elements of the Cthulhu mythos, and takes its name from "The Doom that Came to Sarnath".
 * In the "Horror on the Orient Express" campaign of the roleplaying game Call of Cthulhu is a chapter which includes delegations from Sarnath and Ib to discuss the matter in front of King Kurates just before the 10 centuries are over.
 * The Doom that Came to Wulfhafen by C. L. Werner, originally published 2002 in Inferno! issue 29.
 * In Ron Lundeen's roleplaying adventure "Dreams of the Yellow King" for the game Pathfinder the players have the chance to witness the destruction of the city of Sarnath.
 * NECRONOMIDOL's track, "Sarnath" is based on this tale. The lyrics include many obvious references to "The Doom That Came to Sarnath", such as having "Doom doom doom" backing the chorus as well as this particular part of the song's lyrics: "I will gouge, The sigil of Doom, Even if it takes 1000 years'" which directly reference the story, where it is said that it took 1000 years for Ib's vengeance to be fulfilled. The sigil of Doom is another plot element included in these lyrics, as well.
 * Mnar and its cities are used as place names by George R. R. Martin in his high fantasy reference-book The World of Ice & Fire.

title: The Doom That Came to Sarnath


text:
Wendover (disambiguation)

Wendover is a town in Buckinghamshire, England.

Wendover may also refer to:

Canada

 * Wendover, Ontario
 * Saint-Cyrille-de-Wendover, Quebec

England

 * Wendover Dean, a hamlet south of Wendover, Buckinghamshire

United States

 * Wendover, Utah
 * West Wendover, Nevada
 * Wendover Nugget, a casino in West Wendover
 * Peppermill Wendover, a casino in West Wendover

People

 * Roger of Wendover (died 1236), English chronicler
 * John Wendover, 14th-century Archdeacon of Lewes
 * Peter H. Wendover (1768–1834), United States Representative from New York
 * Stephen H. Wendover (1831–1889), New York State senator

Transportation

 * Wendover Air Force Base, a former air base in Utah
 * Wendover Airport, Utah
 * Wendover Arm Canal, England
 * Wendover Cut-off, a highway in Utah
 * Wendover Dean Viaduct, England, under construction in 2024
 * Wendover railway station, England

Other

 * Wendover (Hyden, Kentucky), a log building and U.S. national historic landmark
 * Wendover (UK Parliament constituency)
 * Wendover Avenue (Greensboro) in Greensboro, North Carolina
 * Wendover Productions, an educational YouTube channel
 * Wendover Will, a sign in West Wendover, Nevada
 * Wendover Woods, in the Chiltern Hills, England

title: Wendover (disambiguation)


text:
Pasvalys District Municipality

Pasvalys District Municipality is one of 60 municipalities in Lithuania.

Structure
District structure: Population of largest elderships of Pasvalys District Municipality (2001):
 * 2 cities – Joniškėlis and Pasvalys;
 * 7 towns – Daujėnai, Krikliniai, Krinčinas, Pumpėnai, Pušalotas, Saločiai and Vaškai;
 * 398 villages.
 * Pasvalys – 8709
 * Joniškėlis – 1477
 * Pumpėnai – 952
 * Saločiai – 913
 * Pušalotas – 885
 * Vaškai – 688
 * Mikoliškis – 617
 * Ustukiai – 615
 * Narteikiai – 603
 * Pajiešmeniai – 603

title: Pasvalys District Municipality


text:
User talk:Kblakes

Welcome!

Hello ! My name is Eric, and it is my pleasure to be the first to welcome you to Wikipedia! I hope you will decide to stay a long time and help us continue to make this one of the greatest sites on the world wide web. Here are a few useful links for you to explore: In addition to that great wealth of knowledge, let me offer you this advice: do what you enjoy! If you enjoy contributing to sports articles, do so! If you like to correct typoes (...), write new articles, find better ways to organize articles, make useful templates, work on projects with others, or even welcome new members, do so! A happy member of our community is a productive member of our community. You can read all of the above links to the last word, or you can jump right into editing. Be bold!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have the need to sign a page without the time and date, you can use three tildes. If you have any questions that aren't easily found with the above links, check out Where to ask a question. Once again, welcome to Wikipedia and enjoy!

P.S.- If you'd like to introduce yourself to the community and perhaps get a question or two answered in the process, drop us a line at the new user log.

EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 02:14, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Could you help me write this article?
Hello,

I was wondering if you would be willing to help me write either Seikichi_Iha or Shorin-ryu_Shido-kan. Tkjazzer 21:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
Hello Kblakes! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created  is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the unreferencedBLP tag. Here is the article:

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 07:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Thomas Meehan (writer) -

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kblakes


text:
GVD

GVD may refer to:

 * GVD (chemotherapy), a chemotherapy regimen
 * Great Victoria Desert
 * Group velocity dispersion,

title: GVD


text:
Ted Green

Edward Joseph "Terrible Ted" Green (March 23, 1940 – October 8, 2019) was a Canadian professional ice hockey coach and player. Green played defenceman in the National Hockey League (NHL) for the Boston Bruins and in the World Hockey Association (WHA) for the New England Whalers and Winnipeg Jets, and was noted for his physical play. Green served as a head coach with the Edmonton Oilers, and was an assistant coach with the Oilers and the New York Rangers.

Playing career
Green played junior hockey in Manitoba for the Winnipeg Braves, winning the Memorial Cup in the 1958–59 season. He was originally the property of the Montreal Canadiens but was claimed by the Bruins in the summer of 1960 and was called up for good in the 1961–62 season. He played ten seasons for Boston, gaining a reputation as a hard-hitting defensive defenceman, as well as one for violent play, and was a bulwark on the blue line when the Bruins emerged from being at the bottom of the league to become a powerhouse in the late 1960s. He was named to play in the All-Star Game in 1965 and 1969.

Coming off his best season in 1969 (for which he was named to the Second All-Star Team), Green was involved in an infamous incident in an exhibition game in Ottawa versus the St. Louis Blues on September 21, 1969, engaging in a bloody stick fight with Blues' forward Wayne Maki. Green was struck in the head, suffering a fractured skull and brain damage. He missed the entire regular season and playoffs, during which Boston won the Stanley Cup. Maki and Green were both charged with assault as a result of the incident, the first time NHL players faced charges as a result of on-ice violence; both were acquitted. Green was suspended by the NHL for 13 games. Though Green did not officially win the Cup, his teammates gave him his share of the prize money, and his name was also engraved on the Stanley Cup in 1970. Green's near-fatal encounter would further propel discourse around the conversation of mandatory helmets in hockey.

He returned the following season to play two more years with Boston (and played for the 1972 Cup-winning team) before jumping to the upstart New England Whalers in the WHA, being named their first captain and leading the team to the WHA's inaugural league championship. After three seasons with the Whalers, he was traded to the Winnipeg Jets, with whom he finished his playing career in 1979.

Green ended his playing career with 254 points and 1029 penalty minutes in 620 games (NHL) and 180 points and 304 penalty minutes in 452 games (WHA). He ranked 17th all-time in games played in the WHA.

Coaching career
After his retirement, Green coached the intermediate Carman Hornets to a provincial title in 1979–80. He then joined the Edmonton Oilers as an assistant coach under close friend Glen Sather, who had played alongside him in Boston from 1967 to 1969. He won five more cups in 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990 (7 in total). He was named head coach of the Oilers in 1991, just as the Oilers' 1980s championship years were ending, though he led the team to the conference finals in 1992. With the Oilers' dynasty disintegrating, they missed the playoffs altogether in 1993—the first time they had been out of the postseason as an NHL team. Following a slow start in the 1993–94 NHL season, Sather fired Green 24 games into the season.

Death
Green died in Edmonton on October 8, 2019, after a long illness.

Awards and achievements

 * Memorial Cup Championship (1959)
 * NHL Second All-Star Team (1969)
 * Played in NHL All-Star Game (1965 & 1969)
 * Stanley Cup Championship (1970, 1972) as a player
 * Stanley Cup Championship (1984, 1985, 1987, 1988) as Assistant Coach, (1990) Co-Coach.
 * Avco Cup Championships (1973, 1976, & 1978)
 * Inducted into the Manitoba Sports Hall of Fame and Museum in 2003
 * Honoured Member of the Manitoba Hockey Hall of Fame
 * Inaugural member of the World Hockey Association Hall of Fame

title: Ted Green


text:
Boomer (Battlestar Galactica)

Boomer is a fictional character in the sci-fi franchise Battlestar Galactica.

Boomer may also refer to:

 * Lieutenant Boomer in Galactica 1980.
 * Number Eight (Battlestar Galactica).

title: Boomer (Battlestar Galactica)


text: User talk:69.217.194.248

title: User talk:69.217.194.248


text:
Talk:Base conversion divisibility test

Sometimes I disagree with the way editor-people reword articles.

title: Talk:Base conversion divisibility test


text:
Talk:Tanner scale

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 July 2019 and 23 August 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Davdang, Cindytrac, Gabidriller, RwengUCSF, AMONGxicillin.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:42, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Added
Added a couple of links to some sites with tasteful drawings of the Tanner stages for both genders.

Like to start tanner scale in court
This would be an add on, quoting published letters about the use of the tanner scale in court. The Tanner Scale doesn't give the actual age, but a "development" stage, which CAN NOT account for breast augmentation, shaving of pubic hair, and photo touch-ups. It is all been said by doctors who use the scale, it only has been tested and works with real life people. This means 1) using the tanner scale on a photo has not been scientifically tested and 2) it doesn't work on images, and Doctors will freely say that.

I have with my lawyer all the paper work that many people will most likely be looking for. (The previous unsigned comment was left by User:FyiFoff on November 15, 2006)

 * What would the tanner stage even be used for in court? To prove that a picture of an alleged minor is in fact of a sexually matured individual, or that the presentation of the tanner stage in the picture shows that the person depicted is allegedly not sexually matured, and thus under-age?  I would very much not like to see this article turned into a legal reference on under-age pornography, and/or a defense against it.  Such information about its use in court is a legal issue, which by the very nature of Wikipedia could not be dealt with appropriately, as it would present legal advice, which again by the very nature of Wikipedia, it is in no position to present.  Your propose still seems to lack any clear guideline for what would be added to the article. --Puellanivis 17:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The tanner scale is used in court cases which isn't it's intent from the man who created the tanner scale. I'm not try to go for or agaist the use of it, just the fact it's being used in court if you 'want' it printed here or not. The point is the tanner scale is ONLY a system used for the id of real people for real life things in the ER.

((If not for court cases, people would never google or wiki the tanner scale.))

The tanner scale is a tool the DA uses, to say this image is a minor, which is not the point of the tanner scale. There are letter from the doctor who made the tanner scale and a officer about the use of the tanner scale. -- --FyiFoff 12:35, 15 November 2006 (EST)

 * First DNA testing for the identity of a splotch of blood at a crime scene was not the intent of the person who discovered DNA. Yet, DNA makes no mention of its use in court cases.  Why should Tanner Stage be different?  Courts use lots of different available information, and simply because it was not originally intended to be used for that purpose is not sufficient reason to legally exclude that information.  Video cameras were not originally intended to be used to collect evidence for court, but now it is undebatable that such evidence should be admissible in court.  Despite the same problems with pictures, that they can be touched up, and altered.  It's the responsibility of the lawyer to point out that a video may be doctored if they do not stipulate to its authenticity, and the jury/judge to evaluate said evidence and an allegation of doubt against it.

 * Second, I never heard of Tanner Stage being used by the court before you mentioned it, so the assertion that no one would google or wiki is except for court cases is false. I came across it as an evaluation of sexual development, because when I had my hormone levels tested, there was a listed indication of what levels are appropriate for various tanner stages.  Tanner stages *also* are used to cover masculine sexual development, which clearly would not be addressed  by "breast augmentation".  And if a female has a Tanner Stage 1 or 2 breast, then there is little reason to think that they are not sexually developed, and a tanner stage 1 and 2 breast are *very* easy to identify against a tanner stage 4 or 5 breast.  And "Brest Augmentation" cannot account for Stage 1/2 breasts on an adolecent.

 * The DA will and should use as many tools and evidence available to prove their case, the fact that you can find a doctor who would criticise the evidence presented is nothing special. You can find an expert who will say anything about everything, as long as you look hard enough.

 * Tanner Stage's use as a piece of courtroom evidence is not notable enough to warrant entry in this article. --Puellanivis 02:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

U=So you heard of the tanner scale from going to the doctor, I know about it from court.

1) love the DNA point, dna is dna. But the tanner scale is not a scientic tool, like DNA or a camera, which record ACTUALLY information.  the tanner scale has a "window of + or - 1.8 or so of "getting" the "correct" actually age.

1b)DNA makes no mention of its use in court cases. that's fine but i bet 1) it refers to the DNA database. 2) i'm sure somewhere on wiki in say this is how people are released from jail and their convictions 3) it refers to crime fiction (which didn't know about finger prints let alone DNA.

1c) if yo listen to the news, remember R. Kelly and his case, they mention using the Tanner scale. (just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean anything to me, because you are not a cop, doctor, or lawyer, or court worker.) to see tanner scale in court see http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tanner+scale+in+court )

2) The courts use the tanner scale, not the defense. ( I did NOT find a doctor who would criticise the evidence){i will s-plain see 5}

3) the Man, the Doctor who made the tanner scale, James F. Tanner, MD, PhD says it wasn't made for for the way courts use it, see 4.

4) Tanner staging, which was designed for estimating development or physiologic age for medical, educational, and sports purposes (in other words, identifying early and late maturing children), has been misused in the courts when it is used not to stage maturation, but to estimate probable chronological age. For a better understanding of the Misuse of the Tanner Scale, you may wish to read the communication between Detective McLaughlin of the Keene Police Department and Dr. Arlan Rosenbloom; Department of Pediatrics at the University of Florida College of Medicine. <--- this is from http://www.ci.keene.nh.us/police/task_force.htm

5) The dotor that I talk about, looked at picture for the police and DA, on the stand for the police and DA she says, "the tanner scale works only on real girls, not images"  she is the only "evidence" of their being a crime.  Totally not scientic, her aging, was in fact 12 years to young.

6) there is a bill at the federal level which they are working on for child porn, which use include the tanner scale.

I'm not looking for an "expert" i'm just looking at the fact, and the facts are very clear. If you don't believe me, call you local major hosiptal, find the department which deals with abused child, and they will tell you they use the tanner scale, for both 1)abused kids they can see and touch for court cases, and 2)images of child porn which they don't see the child.

if you have any questions email me seven2of3two@aol.com, we can email or I can give you my phone number. thanks-- --FyiFoff 9:01, 17 November 2006 (EST)

 * Right, so the federal government passes a law saying you cannot have images of a person who appears to be in an undeveloped sexual level, such as Tanner Stage 1 or 2. I'm sorry, but I don't have much sympathy.  You say that your pornography was of an 18 year old, but according to your assertion on the child pornography talk page the images appear to be 10~12 by the tanner stage.  (You assert that Tanner Stage is typically off by 1.8 years... this range is reasonable.)   Even if your models were actually 18, and you were not looking at child pornography, you are looking at pictures that may as well be child pornography, if they could be confused for a 10~12 year old.  So, let's look at http://www.fpnotebook.com/END42.htm where they say that Tanner Stage 2 breasts are at age 10.9 (8.9 to 12.9)  (this gives the same range you stated)  Now, I don't know how much you know about Tanner Stages, but Tanner Stage 2 breasts are merely puffed up nipples on a flat chest.  It is very easy to tell this apart from a mature breast, even if a woman does not develop any mass to her breasts, because a mature breast has a larger, and darker developed nipple. <<< --FyiFoff adds, what happens if you include studio lighting, makeup, and photoshop?? Many actors and porn people have their tattoos airbrushed "away" >>>

 * Child pornography is often now being determined by apparent Tanner Stage of the model, because even "fake" child pornography of models who are at least 18, but are digitally altered to have their appearance be of someone who would be under-age only fuels further child pornography. They are also attempting to deal with imagery produced as a 3D Model, where the actual age of the model is irrelevant, because there is no physical model.  Pornography depicting any model that is not sexually mature is inappropriate.  <<< --FyiFoff adds, acutally you're wrong, i can draw an under age child in sexually ways or alter a 18+ model in a picture to a minor--this IS NOT against the law.  For child porn to be child porn it HAS TO HAVE a REAL CHILD.  (it's sad, but that's the law) >>>   If you want detail about the use of Tanner Stage in court for Child Pornography, have it added to that article, as it is here, it is inappropriate.  Why?  Ok, let's take a look at just http://www.google.com/search?q=tanner+stage... hm... first page no mention of court... second page, http://www.ci.keene.nh.us/police/tanner%20scale.htm  first case of Tanner Stage court.   Ok, you can have one line saying "There is some controversy over the use of Tanner Stages to place a cronological age of models in child pornography."   Still, if federal law states that it's based on the apparent Tanner Stage of the model in the image, then you're screwed, because the law explicitly defines it as the apparent Tanner Stage. --Puellanivis 16:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I have meet the models in my case, one is ashley, on the cover of hustler barely legal 9 video. she is a flat aa cup girl, at the time of her pictures she was 21, the doctor said she was 10, the doctor was wrong. another model who is a famous porn star was 26 in her pictures, the doctor said she was 10. She used the tanner scale, it failed. it failed as the doctor said, it doesn't work on images. Also these girls were clean shaved, which throws off the scale.

 * My ex-wife, at age 35 and after bearing 5 children, was at Tanner stage 1 to 2. I didn't marry her for her body, but imagine if I were still married to her, and had photos of her in less-than-dressed condition.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.229.99.76 (talk) 05:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Growth rates and the Tanner scale
We should add information on standard growth rates of the different Tanner stages, as fast growth is also a trait of puberty. The external links for Tanner stage descriptions already include growth rates, so we should include them too. --NetRolller 3D  12:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Genital mutilation
Why are the images for male genital development depicting a mutilated (circumcised) penis? That doesn't make a any sense.

Reliable sources on law enforcement applications of the Tanner Scale

 * Litigating Child Pornography and Obscenity Cases in the Internet Age By David T. Cox - Stillwaterising (talk) 15:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * UNITED STATES of America V. Anthony MARCHAND, Defendant Date: March 5, 2004 - Stillwaterising (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Respondent, Appellant,v.DAVID HILTON - Stillwaterising (talk) 16:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * CHILD PORN: WHAT IS REAL, WHAT IS VIRTUAL? - Stillwaterising (talk) 16:17, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Genital size
The genital size given seems to be for the penis in erect state, not flaccid. Also, there's some normal variation for full development, anyway. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You are correct that there is variation (see Penis size); also, none of the sources included in the article or any that I found using a quick web search specify specific penis sizes for the stages. I'll go ahead and remove that content. shoelace203  (talk) 10:31, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

To simplified?
As implied earlier this article is simplified, "Adapted from text by Lawrence Neinstein, MD". This source is dead. May be good to expand the stages using the original source. I know, a suggestion. My plate is already full. --  :- )  Don  22:42, 22 October 2012 (UTC) I understand that English is a relatively difficult language to grasp, but how can you not know how to spell "too"?2600:1700:5DD0:60A0:CDA5:4496:59E1:16BD (talk) 09:52, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

This page needs to be edited to be inclusive to transgender people. It is a page that is of special interest to us and the diction needs work.
Rather than males and females, the diagrams should be relabeled simply penises and breasts etc. Anatomy need not be gendered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.195.219 (talk • contribs)

 * Anatomy does need to be gendered, or, more precisely, be clear on what is a male or a female body and the pubertal process involved in that when it comes to talking about puberty. Male and female bodies biologically exist. This page is about biology, not about gender identity. The sex and gender distinction exists for a reason, though not everyone subscribes to it. And like I recently stated here at the Same-sex marriage talk page, "biology is more complicated than just, for example, 'You have a Y chromosome, so you're a male.' But there's also the fact that, like I stated near the end of this section at the Transsexualism talk page, 'Intersex people are usually biologically classified as male or female (based on physical appearance and/or chromosomal makeup, such as XY female or XX male), and usually identify as male or female; it's not the usual case that an intersex person wants to be thought of as neither male nor female. Being thought of as neither male nor female is usually a third gender or genderqueer matter.' The same applies to transgender people (at least when you exclude genderqueer people from the category of transgender); they usually identify as male or female and/or as a man or a woman. 'I'm not aware of science having actually identified a third sex, though intersex people and hermaphroditic non-human animals are sometimes classified as a third sex (by being a combination of both)... ...but gender is a broader field and researchers have identified three or more genders (again, see the Third gender article).'"

 * For how we are generally supposed to treat anatomy and medical topics on Wikipedia when it comes sex/gender, see Talk:Phimosis/Archive 2. Flyer22 (talk) 03:39, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

 * The Tanner scale is used for discussing anatomical sex characteristics, as opposed to behavioral, psychological, and social ones. For issues related to medicine, like this one, binary biological gender is still important and widely used. While Wikipedia generally does try to use gender-neutral language, Wikipedia also uses reliable sources to determine how things are described. For things related to human anatomy Wikipedia and the vast, vast majority of sources use a simply binary most of the time. Female reproductive system and Male reproductive system, for example. If you can think of a way to make this more gender neutral that matches what reliable sources say, please bring it to our attention. Grayfell (talk) 03:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

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Penis size
The scale assume that a human male penis has to be 15 cm, which is above average and therefore misleading. This should be in the criticism section. --2001:16B8:2E35:FB00:FD27:62A0:746D:4E55 (talk) 10:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

 * That information is also not found in any of the included references, or any sources I saw in a quick web search. I'm removing this content from the article. shoelace203  (talk) 10:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)  shoelace203

Physiological accuracy in male Tanner scale diagram: circumcised vs. uncircumcised penis in diagram
The diagram of the Tanner Scale for males appears to be featuring a circumcised penis. This is misleading as it features a modification to the body, not the body as it would develop naturally without disease. Corrections to the diagram should be considered.

EarnestElephant (talk) 22:30, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Since creating this comment I've posted on the discussion page for the diagram itself with the same comment. Action can be avoided here.

EarnestElephant (talk) 22:37, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Illustrations of the human penis are often of a circumcised penis. What matters more for the imagery you take issue with is the timing being accurate. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:38, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

 * I don't see that a discussion was started at the talk page of File:Tanner scale-male.svg. But I take the time now to note to you that people usually do not check image talk pages. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:41, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Image removal
Does someone know how exactly to prevent the bot from deleting the image section? It seem to me that the images does fit all criteria, but I don't know how to fix the situation. Cordially. --Aréat (talk) 18:27, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * , I assume you're talking about deletions like this one . They were deleted because they are not freely licensed. There is a very narrow set of reasons in which we allow non-free images on Wikipedia, e.g. you can have a picture of an album cover in an article about an album. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:17, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reminding me about this matter. I will look into uploading new photos of similar books from the era, which are now in the public domain. Would that be fine with you? --Aréat (talk) 20:15, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * , If the images are in the public domain, you can upload them to Wikipedia Commons. If you're uncertain about copyright, we have a Media copyright questions noticeboard that can be helpful. Good luck! Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Just to be sure : with such black and white photos from old medical books, even if it's of minors, it's all legal, right? I don't wan't to have problems.--Aréat (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * , Yes. As far as I can tell, the images that you added were deleted for licensing reasons, not because anyone objected to what they depicted. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 22:16, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer. I will upload some as soon as possible. --Aréat (talk) 22:21, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

 * Aréat, regarding this, File:Tanner scale-female.svg seems to be the less offensive version of File:Female breasts five Tanner stages.jpg. In fact, it looks like it is an illustrated copy (with the exception of the genital region). And by "less offensive", I mean what WP:Offensive material states. For example, it states, "Material that would be considered vulgar or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available." So in a case like this, the less offensive image is the illustration of the real-life image since our readers commonly complain having about real-life images of intimate areas rather than paintings or drawings of intimate areas -- the type one would see in a doctor's office. Our readers are also commonly concerned about unclothed images of children because they either see it as pornography or they think others will. For an example of this, see the following discussion about Lina Medina: Talk:Lina Medina/Archive 1. I could see people arguing that the image you added is unnecessary since the illustration exists. That stated, since this is not a sexual article (the type of article where we commonly go with the drawing or painting over the real-life image), the image is not sexual, and it documents the real-life change of breast development, there is a solid case for retaining the image. No need to ping me if you reply. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:42, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please keep in mind that this is merely the re-adding of real life photos content that were initially there for years on the page on a different form. Besides, this isn't pornography, but medical photography, in a completely non sexual way. All kinds of articles on body parts and/or medical terms currently have similar photographies of the human body. A lot have them from random photos, even less medical looking than these medical book's ones. And yet there have been debates on them too. You will always find people who wan't to remove human nudity, because they find the mere photography or depiction of the human body offensive. Once it's photos, then it's accurate drawings. We shouldn't follow such race to the bottom on Wikipedia. There's human bodies in textbook encyclopedia, there isn't a reason to censor it on the main online one. Cordially. --Aréat (talk) 04:10, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't object to the content of these images, but I'm afraid the textbook you got them from might not be in the public domain because the author, Frank Kayley Shuttleworth, died only 62 years ago. In general, an image enters the public domain 70 years after the death of the copyright holder. Am I missing something? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:43, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Works published between 1923 and 1964 had to renew their copyright during the 28th year of their first term of copyright to maintain it, which wasn't done as can be seen with a search here : . Cordially. --Aréat (talk) 09:37, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Aréat, I was simply noting that people will object to the image and why. Same goes for File:Male genitalia five Tanner stages.png. Already an IP has removed the images. But I was also clear that "since this is not a sexual article (the type of article where we commonly go with the drawing or painting over the real-life image), the image is not sexual, and it documents the real-life change of breast development, there is a solid case for retaining the image." Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please be assured I understood you were explaining the potential point of view of others and not yours. I just felt the need to counter it on the spot because these potentials users may very well read this discussion. Plus I guess that considering the matter, I feel the need to explain why these photos belong there as I added them. Cordially.--Aréat (talk) 01:09, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I see validity in both the argument that the "real-life images are not needed" since the illustrations exists and the argument that the real-life illustrations are beneficial alone or with the illustrations. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * , wonderful, thanks for clearing that up :) I don't have any objections to the use of these images then. I understand the preference for drawings over photos, but in this case the photos don't strike me as inappropriate. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Line drawing
The separate image for breast development should be removed, or at least reworked, as it is WILDLY inaccurate. What 10-year-old develops a breast that is a perfect hemisphere? In the next stage the illustrated breast balloons to double its size. Stage 4 shows an areola that inflates, only to revert in stage 5. The other Tanner scale illustration just below this crudely-drawn image does a fine job of depicting breast development.2600:1700:5DD0:60A0:CDA5:4496:59E1:16BD (talk) 09:58, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

 * I added the image you're referring to, and have removed it at least for now. The image comes from an endocrinology professor I know. I'll loop her to this discussion. Thanks for your feedback. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:12, 11 March 2020 (UTC) Breast Tanner Stages.tif

UCSF Foundations 2 2019, Group 6C goals
Hello Wiki,

We are UCSF Pharmacy Students and we will be making some updates to this page, below are our goals for improving and updating this page:

 * Insert reference for HIV treatment and use of Tanner Scale and elaborate on how treatment changes based on tanner scale
 * Adding a section for History of the use of Tanner Scale
 * Update link for the source of the Tanner Scale

Please let us know if there are any comments or changes on the edits we proposed.Davdang (talk) 21:12, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

UCSF Foundations 2 2019, Group 6b's Peer Review

 * Ally's Peer Review - Hi Group 6C, here is my peer review ~

• Do the group’s edits substantially improve the article as described in the Wikipedia peer review “Guiding framework”? I like that the group added a comment about using the tanner scale guidelines for antiretroviral therapy. It has a citation and is written in a neutral tone. I think it would be great if this section could be further expanded with other ways (if any) the tanner scale is implemented in clinical practice. • Has the group achieved its overall goals for improvement? + Is there any evidence of plagarism? The group did expand on the history of Tanner scale in the opening section and added a reference for HIV treatment using the Tanner Scale. The group also added citations for tanner scale. I think the section on history of using the Tanner scale could be expanded for a more comprehensive overview. I don't see any evidence of copyright violations. Allydiiorio (talk) 21:31, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

 * Jennie's Peer Review (Group 6b):

 * 1) Group 6c contributed to the overall completeness of the article's opening section. It was great that they clarified who James Tanner was and expanded on HIV treatment. I think the article could be stronger if there was a section addressing the different options for HIV treatment depending on the results of the Tanner scale.
 * 2) Group 6c has achieved a majority of their overall goals for improvement. They updated the references for the Tanner score and provided a citation for HIV treatment. They have yet to add a section regarding the history of the use of the Tanner scale and have not elaborated on how treatment changes based on the Tanner scale.
 * 3) Group 6c's edits were formatted consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style. Jhum4993 (talk) 16:40, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

 * Gabi's Peer Review (Group 6b)

 * 1) Group 6c's edits helped to complete the article. Group 6c helped to add historical context, relevance to HIV treatment, and use of the Tanner Scale in forensics. While these additions were helpful, I think there is further room for improvement in this article (see below).
 * 2) Group 6c accomplished two out of their three goals. I think accomplishing the last goal, a section on the history of the use of the Tanner Scale, would really add to the overall completeness of this article.
 * 3) Most of group 6c's edits reflect a neutral point of view. I think it would be worth the time to elaborate on the "lack of reliability" of the Tanner Scale (last sentence of introduction) to further establish credibility and neutral perspective. Gabidriller (talk) 17:24, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

 * ''Thien's Peer REview ( Group 6b)

Group 6c edits contributed to their overall goal they did a sufficient job in editing the opening paragraphs to provide more insight towards the tanner scale and give it perspective. Perhaps to improve this overall article elaborate more on the reason as to why there is a lack of reliability.

Child penis
OK, I get that Wikipedia is not censored, but there could be pedophiles coming to this page and looking at the image for sexual gratification. Morty-0 (talk) 15:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC).
 * Same as there could be perverts looking at Breast, Vagina or Human penis. So what? The images here are from specialised human health books. We're not going to censor them because they may entice a reaction from some readers. The problem doesn't lie in the black and white pics - which are as tame as can be - but in these viewers. The logic of removing them is how you end up with Burkas, imo.--Aréat (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Exactly. --Gilgul Kaful (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Appropriate resources for the Tanner scale
I did a rvt on changes made to the article. Evope, http://pediatric-house-calls.djmed.net/puberty-tanner-stages-boys isn't an appropriate resource. It's a doctor's blog/website, and the website isn't even secure. Even if the doctor is an expert on this topic, "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." Has his work in the relevant field been previously published by reliable, independent publications? Even if it has, we can and should do better than this. There's a resource provided for the ranges in the section. It's reliable. All we have to do is check whether it supports the ranges listed. If not, we can use a reliable resource that does. GBFEE (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Considering that girls stereotypically are more mature than boys, shall we change the ages in terms of breast development for girls? Evope (talk) 19:25, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have other resources, Evope? They should be about the Tanner scale. GBFEE (talk) 18:31, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Here are two links GBFEE. https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/stages-of-puberty#tanner-stage-5 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/156451#what-is-puberty Evope 19:56, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Evope, give me some time to look over Tanner scale resources. We have to be mindful of the Wikipedia medical guidance. GBFEE (talk) 20:57, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * All right, I'm still scrolling through academic resources, comparing them to one another and to the lay resources you've listed. GBFEE (talk) 17:46, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Evope, how do you think the female breast development information is wrong and how are you looking to change it? I can show you the age ranges given in different resources. GBFEE (talk) 17:19, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

GBFEE, while Mathglot thanked me for my edit about changing ages about boys in terms of tanner stage, you disregarded it. Also, I know that the usual earliest age a girl starts puberty is 8 years old whereas the usual earliest age for a boy is 9 years old. For the average age to start puberty, it's 11 and 12 for girls and boys respectively. Evope (talk) 23:56, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know why that editor thanked you, but I'm not going to thank an editor for adding an inappropriate resource. I think it's also important for me to say that it's not so simple as "girls start puberty earlier than boys." For the development of certain characteristics, there's a typical age range given for girls and boys respectively. We must report the age ranges Tanner gave for the scale, not a doctor's interpretation of the scale on their blog or website or our own guesses based on "girls start puberty earlier than boys." Since we're reporting on what Tanner described, I also think that we should faithfully reproduce that scale here. For deviations found in resources, we can add a paragraph about it. So let's go back to what I asked you: How do you think the female breast development information is wrong and how are you looking to change it? I said I can show you the age ranges given in different resources. Here in this discussion for your assessment, I can list the age ranges typically given for the Tanner scale based on quality resources. I can then amend the article accordingly. GBFEE (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, since pubertal timing has changed since Tanner first identified the scale, the scale should probably be more up-to-date for the typical ranges given today. Then we can have a paragraph about the ranges Tanner first identified. But the ranges should be based on what is most commonly found in resources describing the age ranges for the scale. I'll begin putting in resources soon. GBFEE (talk) 18:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * While I'm away getting things together, might I suggest you read what Tanner says in "Misuse of Tanner puberty stages to estimate chronologic age"? I've already read it. GBFEE (talk) 18:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I've now read so much more on this, and I've found that it's more than occasional that different resources give different age ranges for the stages and sometimes different descriptions, although the descriptions are mostly slightly different. Here are some resources for observation or to use to change what's in the article: "Manual of Pediatric Nutrition, 5e", 2013. "The Harriet Lane Handbook E-Book", 2017. "Maternal-Child Nursing - E-Book," 2021. For academic resources, I maybe had the most success looking for information about the scale under its other name "Sexual Maturity Rating." Some of these resources would also mention the most common name "Tanner scale", but there's a lot more older resources using the older name. Maybe we should remove the ages and just go by the descriptions given for the stages? Any ideas, Aréat? Descriptions are given more often than ages in academic resources, whether the resources show a chart or table, or only use text. Refer to "Nutrition, Health and Disease: A Lifespan Approach", 2015. Its table doesn't list ages and it says some important things about chronological age (such as wide variations in timing). It's good to give people information about the typical timing, but that's not easy to do when resources give different age ranges and commentaries about them. GBFEE (talk) 19:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The way the scale is written about by Tanner and Whitehouse, it is never used to say that a given stage happen at a given age. On the contrary, they spend lenghty parts of their works showing exemples of teenagers of the same age being vastly different in terms of puberty stages. The point of the Tanner scale is that when the childrens do start puberty, they then follow those stages very consistently. --Aréat (talk) 21:11, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Aréat, yep, I read "Misuse of Tanner puberty stages to estimate chronologic age." So would you be okay with me taking out the ages and including a few paragraphs about age and the Tanner scale? I think that's what we should do because of the age variation in resources and because it'll help people understand the scale as it relates to chronological age. The criticism section can then maybe me merged into that. GBFEE (talk) 18:23, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with that proposal. Thanks for your work on the page.--Aréat (talk) 19:27, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thanks. GBFEE (talk) 19:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Aréat, I want you to know I haven't forgotten about what I said I'll do. I put this to the side when I focused on other articles, like the sex differences pages. But I'll do what I said I'll do for this page. GBFEE (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Aréat, it's good to see you removed the ages. I ignored the recent IP changes (which were also trollish by at least one) because I knew I'd remove them sooner than later. Next step is what we discussed. GBFEE (talk) 21:31, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Once I make the changes, we should seek to get the article semi-protected to stop the unsourced age ranges that IPs continue to add. GBFEE (talk) 23:24, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tanner scale