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Talk:Chicano English

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Hispanic American English dialects
The topic of Chicano English brings up the question:

Do each of the other types of Hispanic Americans also have their own dialects of American English? Gringo300 (talk) 06:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Can Chicano English be regional and not just associated with Mexican Americans? Can people of other races living in Mexican-American neighborhoods for example, speak this variety of English? Bibliography Fought, C. 1. (2003). Chicano English in context. Palgrave Macmillan. Galindo, D. L. (1995). Language attitudes toward Spanish and English varieties: a Chicano perspective. Hispanic Journal Of Behavioral Sciences, 17(1), 77-99 Penfield, J. (1989). Social and linguistic parameters of prosody in Chicano English. In (pp. 387-401). Santa Ana A., O. (1993). Chicano English and the nature of the Chicano language setting. Hispanic Journal Of Behavioral Sciences, 15(1), 3-35. Teschner, R. V. (1977). A collection of research studies in Chicano linguistics. Bilingual Review, 4(1/2), 138-140. Janet-L-0 (talk) 00:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

carnal
What does 'carnal' (-oye carnal) mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jondel (talk • contribs)

 * I think it can mean "buddy" or "pal." It also means carnal. AEuSoes1 04:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

George Lopez
George Lopez does not speak Chicano English (if you read the article carefully). He speaks Spanish-accented English. He is born in the States so he definitely does not speak Spanish-accented English. That`s one of the myths about people like him and about Chicano English. You should read some scientific literature about it, for example "Chicano English in Context" by Carmen Fought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.240.135.159 (talk) 19:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Stubble
How come there are so many references listed for a page that is essentially a stub? Strange. I'm going to see if I can find the referenced books in my uni's library, and perhaps start fleshing out an actual article here. Reydeyo (talk) 23:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Final Consonant Deletion
This section is minorly incorrect. Off the top of my head I can think of two isolated examples ('red' and 'pared') and an entire class (nouns ending in '-dad') that are final -d. Perhaps it should be altered to discuss deletion of final consonant clusters? This is all it demonstrates anyway. ClockwerkMao (talk) 17:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

This article is so racist
...that it should be deleted.

Or at least get it right.

"Chicano English" is not a dialect of American English used by Chicanos. The subject of this article could be more accurately described as a regional dialect for a subset of people or as a dialect of American English spoken by Chicanos in California, and even more specifically southern California. As the article has already pointed out, "Chicano English" is not spoken by the "Chicanos" in parts of Texas.

There is a sizable "Chicano" population in industrialized northern US cities like Chicago and the "Chicanos" there do not speak this cholo/low-rider/zoot suit/southern California dialect. Possibly because the Mexican populations that ended immigrating to industrialized northern US cities took jobs in the local factories and worked among non-Spanish speakers (many also recent immigrants from Europe) which forced the recent immigrant groups (Mexican and European) to acquire at least a working grasp of English to communicate with each other and consequently they assimilated faster, often within the first generation.

This is so racist (talk) 01:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

 * it says used by chicanos, not by ALL chicanos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.73.7.198 (talk) 23:58, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

 * And it's not racist, it's just over-generalizing. This is a conflict between WP:THETRUTH and WP:RS.  That is, actual sources call it "Chicano English" (sometimes), but other sources make it clear that not all self-identifying Chicanos speak this way; it is clearly centered on Southern California.  So, it is possible that the article needs to be renamed, but we need to look to reliable sources for another attested term for it; I don't know of one off the top of my head.  Maybe some linguistic sources have some term for it like "Hispanic Californian Vernacular English" or something.  Like all dialects, it's also in flux; California in recent decades has had a very large influx of Central and South Americans, affecting the Hispanic use of English in the area and the very nature of the Hispanic subculture in California (though perhaps more so in the San Francisco Bay Area than between San Diego and L.A.).  At any rate, the WP:GREATWRONGS desire to "fix" the fact that not every single Chicano in America speaks what this article (and external sources) call Chicano English cannot lead us through original research to reject the term as "wrong".  Rather, the scope and definition of the article's subject needs to be defined better.  Two countervailing factors are a) the term "Chicano" is on the decline, and b) it only applies to Mexican Americans, not all Hispanics, and many non-Chicanos simply do not understand that at all.  Puerto Rican and Cuban Americans, for example, are  Chicanos, so any argument along the lines "Hispanics in New York and Florida don't speak this 'Chicano English', so this article must be wrong" are invalid on their face.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:55, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal (New Mexican English to Chicano English)
Apparently this merger is controversial, since it (plus also the info I added to this page) was reverted by first-time user JoinerFact; see my last edit on Chicano English. So, here are some of my references for why "New Mexican English" is a sub-variety of Chicano English:
 * Balukas, Colleen; Koops, Christian (2014). "Spanish-English bilingual voice onset time in spontaneous code-switching". [I can pass along the full doc if needed.]: This source, already used on New Mexican English, discusses New Mexican English only as part of the phrase "New Mexican English-Spanish bilinguals." It does not imply any sort of "New Mexican English" spoken outside of English-Spanish bilinguals. In any case, due to the obvious ethic/linguistic demographics of New Mexico, these Hispanophone bilinguals in question would largely be of Nuevomexicano/Mexican heritage... so: Chicanos. Also, the Balukas & Koops study says that it studies the corpus of "practiced, frequent code-switchers for whom codeswitching is an unmarked, common in-group discourse mode (Gonzales Velásquez, 1995, 1999)" (p. 426). Both of those cited Gonzales Velásquez sources center around (see their titles) Chicana English.
 * Hernández, Pilar (1993). "Vowel shift in Northern New Mexico Chicano English" [Again, I have the full article if needed]: This discusses, once more, a New Mexican variety of English only in the context of being a sub-type of Chicano English. By the way, Hernández says "ChE transcends age, race and socioeconomic status so that speakers include[...] even non-chicanos" (p. 233). This seems to debunk User:JoinerFact's contention as implied by the edit summary "The State of New Mexico is not entirely composed of Chicano individuals." The implication is that what WP is calling "New Mexican English" cannot possibly be just a type of "Chicano English," but Hernández (and probably all linguists) would obviously disagree with the premise underlying that assumption. Chicano English can absolutely be spoken by non-Chicanos (even non-Latinos), just like Southern White Vernacular English can also be spoken by non-whites, or AAVE by non-blacks.
 * Wilson, Damian (2015-05-21). The Burqueno Dialect: This source, already used (and most ubiquitous) on the New Mexican English page, discusses several of the Spanish-influenced terms in Albuquerque English, and the fact that Albuquerque (i.e. New Mexican) Spanish has influenced the dialect. Also, the intonation patterns match those documented by Santa Ana, Otto; & Bayley, Robert. (2004a). "Chicano English phonology" (in "The Handbook of Varieties of English.") as Chicano English; Santa Ana & Bayley also marks the Southwest as the major dialect region of Chicano English, further strengthening that what we're talking about here (vaguely, by the way, as I've mentioned in past comments) is really a form of Chicano English. Wolfdog (talk) 22:58, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado are home to the "Northern New Mexico Chicano English", which is a legitimate sub-dialect of New Mexican English that is related to the descendants of Spanish settlers mainly in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains. However, New Mexico is not solely Chicano as it has a rather large Native American population, which are known to speak with the New Mexican English dialect, particularly the Mescalero and Jicarilla Apache and the numerous Pueblos from around the state, that's not even beginning to discuss the descendants of the American West, Buffalo soldiers, Mexican-Americans, etc. New Mexican English is about the English language as spoken in New Mexico, and this article discusses numerous Chicano dialects from across the country including "Tejano English" and "Northern New Mexico Chicano English", both of which are better discussed in-depth at the Texan English and New Mexican English articles respectively. This article should discuss the origin of Chicano English as a whole, and discuss regional variations such as those in Texas and New Mexico. JoinerFact (talk) 04:38, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

 * You provide some interesting information. But it all seems like original research (OR) unless you can give sources to back up your points. I'm going to break down your previous response, sentence by sentence (in numerical order, starting, in other words, with your sentence #1):
 * Do you have a source for this sentence?
 * I know that NM is not solely Chicano, as I've explained (however, in NM, Latinos outweigh non-Latino whites as well as Indians/Natives Americans). You're knocking down a straw man. (Do you have any citations, rather than just OR, that Mescaleros Jicarilla Apaches, Pueblos, Buffalo soldiers all primarily speak this "New Mexican English"?)
 * You think it makes more sense to put information about "Northern New Mexico Chicano English" (NNMCE) under the debatable page "New Mexican English" than the firmly-established page "Chicano English"? The answer seems to me in the very name. I'm confused. You say that NNMCE is "better discussed in-depth" at "New Mexican English." No, it isn't. It is only mentioned in one single sentence, and I carried that same exact info over into my merge with Chicano English, which you reverted. You're also mistaken in Tejano English being discussed in-depth at the page Texan English; it is quite obviously discussed briefly (in fact the term "Tejano" is discussed more than the term "Tejano English" itself there).
 * This final sentence baffles me. Now you seem to be agreeing with me about what to do on the Chicano English page.
 * In any event, can you back up any of your disagreements with sources? Wolfdog (talk) 19:38, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Response:
 * The first sentence comes from one of the sources you listed, especially Vowel shift in Northern New Mexico Chicano English by Hernández, Pilar. As well as this source Chicano English: An Ethnic Contact Dialect by Joyce Penfield. The peoples of Northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado do not identify as being primarily Mexican/Chicano but instead identify with being the unique Nuevomexicano as you stated.
 * This is not a straw man, moving a linguistic region like New Mexico into a vast language such as Chicano English would be confusing. New Mexican English is identified just one thing, the English language in New Mexico, and referring to it as New Mexican English allows for uniformity with other regional dialect. Chicano English discusses English as spoken by those that interact with speakers of Mexican Spanish, which is found throughout areas Chicano English involves primarily Mexican-American communities. Merging these articles could mislead people to think that New Mexicans speak primarily Chicano English, yet alone losing information, note Tiwa place-names and certain English additives such as "sick to the stomach" and "Or what and Or no". I'm saying that merging these articles is misleading. See Some Homelands and Place Names of New Mexico by Robert Valdez a well known New Mexico historian and Language Rights and the Law in the United States by Sandra Del Valle.
 * Northern New Mexico Chicano English should be discussed in the New Mexican English page as that is its primary language of interaction. Chicano English needs to discuss these sub-dialects, Tejano and NNMCE, and it should describe what the differences of those languages. But, Texan English and New Mexican English are completely different from one-another and from Tejano and NNMCE. See Form and function in Chicano English by Jacob Ornstein-Galicia and Chicano English by Allan A. Metcalf/ERIC Clearinghouse on Languages and Linguistics, Center for Applied Linguistics.
 * I definitely appreciate your work on the language pages here on Wikipedia, and I do agree with what your trying to do. But, New Mexican English is not the same as Chicano English, and equating the two will cause confusion.
 * There are many more sources that would inform you, if you're having trouble finding sources on New Mexican English, I recommenced searching for English language in New Mexico. The New Mexican English article should definitely discuss more of its history, and probably contain a bit about the good ol' "Partner" and "Howdy", etc. JoinerFact (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * In response to each number above:
 * The Hernández source does not, as you claim, say anything about Northern New Mexico Chicano English (NNMCE) being a sub-dialect of New Mexican English, or even NNMCE being spoken in Colorado. It simply says "there is much regional linguistic variatíon within the ChE dialect. This pilot study uncovers one such dialectal variation spoken in Northern New Mexico" (p. 227). If anything, then, NNMCE is confirmed here to be a sub-dialect of ChE -- not a sub-dialect of some New Mexican English. As for the Penfield source, I don't have full access to it, but a search for the phrase "New Mexico" in Google Books yields only this sentence: "Two other very archaic dialects of Spanish which exist in the Southwest are varieties found in northern New Mexico and southern Colorado" (p. 8). So, your claim that "Northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado are home to the 'Northern New Mexico Chicano English'" is supported only by a source referencing a dialect of Spanish-- not a dialect of English. Looking at the lexical features on New Mexican English, I think it's hard to argue that this seemingly difficult-to-verify variety is not a Latino English.
 * Is it "New Mexican English" (often, implying a dialect -- in the style of other WP articles) or is it "English language in New Mexico" (not implying a fully unique dialect, but implying some unique elements that appear to have ties to Chicano/Spanish influence and could better be merged elsewhere). I'm not sure what the Valdez and Del Valle sources do to show that what you're calling "New Mexican English" is not actually a sub-variety of Chicano English. What pages are you looking at in Del Valle? And a source by this historian does nothing to discuss a dialect one way or the other; the Valdez source has everything to say about local topographical/historical place-names, and nothing to say about local English dialect uniqueness.
 * What exactly is the difference between Tejano, Chicano, and New Mexican English? If we could find a solid source on that, then I'd have to relent. Instead, Tejano English is discussed only as a sub-variety of Chicano English and there appears to be no "New Mexican English" outside of Hernández's "Northern New Mexico Chicano English," Balukas & Koops's English as spoken by New Mexican Spanish-English bilinguals, and Wilson's vague New Mexican Spanish-influenced "Albuquerque English" which seems to have no support elsewhere in the academic world. Can you point to anything specific in your Ornstein-Galicia and Metcalf sources? I have no access to them.
 * You caution that "New Mexican English is not the same as Chicano English, and equating the two will cause confusion." But I'm not equating the two. I'm saying that there is a New Mexican sub-variety of Chicano English, which is where we should move "New Mexican English" to, since the sources already on the "New Mexican English" page more or less (or, in Hernández's case, directly) point to it being a type of Chicano English. I even would have a special "New Mexico" section on the Chicano English page, to avoid readers completely equating the two. Meanwhile, the "New Mexican English" page is hardly verified as it is. If you request it, I'd be happy to go through all the references on that page to show you which ones actually uphold the idea of a unique "New Mexican English," none of which I would argue confirm it to be separate from the umbrella of "Chicano English." Wolfdog (talk) 20:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Finally, you say "The New Mexican English article should definitely discuss more of its history, and probably contain a bit about the good ol' 'Partner' and 'Howdy', etc." I assume you're talking about the Southern American English and Texan English elements, which encroach on the region according to this map from the 2006 ANAE. Those dialects already have their own respective pages on WP. Western American English also already has its own page. And the only unique batch of elements in New Mexico that "New Mexican English" presents with "o sí," "canales," etc. also has its own page and a perfect place for its own more specific section: Chicano English. Wolfdog (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You're clearly creating circular arguments.
 * The Hernández source does claim that Northern New Mexico Chicano English is a sub-dialect of New Mexican English, "Because the inhabitants of this predominantly monolingual environment are not recent immigrants from a Spanish speaking country, their English is not a result of language interference but is strongly rooted in the region transcending age, race and socioeconomic status". It also explains what NNMCE is "in Northern New Mexico (=NNM). In this particular region, the fluent ChE spoken as a first language most likely originated in the variety of English spoken by immigrants from Mexico who have learned English as a second language." The Penfield source discusses the regional Chicano variation of the entire Southwest, from Southern California Chicanos to New Mexico Chicanos to Tejanos.
 * Refer to the multitude of studies on Southwestern American English. You will find them breaking down the differences between Chicano English throughout the Southwest and how it relates to neighboring non-Chicano speech patterns.
 * "New Mexican English" would be preferred term here on Wikipedia for neutrality sake, see English in the United Kingdom, as this is referring to a linguistic region that covers Southern Colorado, Eastern Arizona, but primarily focusing on New Mexico. The term New Mexico itself comes from the old Spanish colony, and the Mexican and American territories, Santa Fe de Nuevo Mexico, which used to cover a great deal of the area. The Burqueno Dialect is mentioned in one of the articles you brought up, this term is also sometimes used simply because it is the largest metropolis in New Mexico. Perhaps other terms should be mentioned in the lede for New Mexican English.
 * By combining the two you WILL cause confusion, New Mexico's English does not solely have Chicano influences, and in order to make your assessment true you would need to throw out several facts that could not be covered within a section on the Chicano English page. For example, the term "chile" being used, instead of chili, has very little to do with Chicano English, and is much more related to the culture of New Mexico itself. Most Chicano English speakers wouldn't care about the spelling of chili, only New Mexican English speakers would.
 * This circular logic appears to be a extremely similar to your prior discussions with User:SMcCandlish. JoinerFact (talk) 02:37, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose: These are only vaguely related topics. It's like demanding to merge Ulster English and Scottish English because they have similarities and a partially-shared cultural background, and there are more sources for Scottish English. We simply do not merge articles on the basis of such vague correlation and convenience.  In actuality, Scottish and Ulster English actually have more in common with each other than Californian and New Mexico English, since the Irish Sea between Ulster and Scotland is quite narrow and passable, with close contact going back to to prehistory, a shared early medieval kingdom, later joint rule under the English, and Early Modern mass transplantation of Scots into Ulster; meanwhile, there was virtually no contact between New Mexico and California until the coming of the railroad at the end of the 1800s. People not steeped in this history just don't understand how impassable the land was (Arizona and Nevada, which had only a tiny population of non-indigenous settlers until the 20th century) between the two now-states.  The nature of the spoken English brought into these areas was different, happening at different periods of time (much later in NM despite it being more easterly) and being brought by different groups of native English speakers (with that brought to NM being far more homogenous; the California Gold Rush brought everyone and their dog, from everywhere, all at once (including the first of several waves of Spanish-speakers from south of Mexico), while NM was mostly gradually Anglo settled, by ranchers, farmers, and the like, from the western South (TX, OK, LA, AR) and from the Midwest (KS, MO, IA, NE, etc.) The nature of the Spanish already spoken in the two areas also differed, having been long geographically separated, with the Californian variety coming into commingling contact with English far sooner, and the NM variety being very rustic and traditional, uninfluenced much by later innovation and external influence for quite some time (many of the "old families" in n. NM and s. CO date to the Spanish Colonial period, but this is not true of much of the Spanish-speaking substrate of CA, which has seen a constant churn of northward immigration from Mexico.  Many of the original Nuevo México families were Jewish, descendants of the Conversos who emerged from the Inquisition. Entire books have been written about this. (While they were not speaking Ladino a.k.a. Judaeo-Spanish (which mostly developed in Spanish territories east of Spain), they were not speaking high Castilian Spanish, either.  The nature of the indigenous languages is also completely different (mostly wholly separate language  in CA and NM), with NM Spanish and later English adopting more indigenous loanwords than the CA varieties (and of course different ones than in CA).  CA has also seen a very, very substantial influx of non-Mexican Hispanics/Latinos while NM has not, strongly affecting CA's Spanish and its Spanish's influence on its English.  And so on.  To address the numbered points above:

 * JoinerFact is correct that, except for more recent-immigrant populations in the south of NM, AZ, and w. TX, the native Hispanic population centered on New Mexico does not identify as "Mexican"; many get offended when called this, since historically they were part of New Spain's rather sparse and diffuse colony of Nueva México, named for the city, not the later country, (and in w. Texas part of the Republic of Texas for a while). Calling them "Mexicans" confuses them with and implies that they are "wetbacks", i.e. recent immigrants from across the Rio grande, when many of them have been residing in this area for centuries, before the Mexican-American war. While, especially in the 1970s–80s, many did in fact identify with la causa chicana, chicanismo, and the Chicano civil rights and labor movements, which began in So. Cal. (I grew up in NM and was in high school in the mid-'80s; most Hispanic students identified as "Chicano" or "Mexican-American", and calling them "Mexican" was seen as offensive, while "Hispanic" and "Latino" were not in much use in the area at that time.)  At any rate, the Hernández quote JoinerFact just included above makes it pretty obvious why NM Chicano English is an NM English not a [Californian] Chicano English subtopic. Side point: Joinerfact being a recently-joining editor is irrelevant; we were all new editors when we were new editors. That didn't make us stupid, wrong, acting in bad faith, nor did it make those who'd arrived earlier WP:VESTED editors with more editorial rights.
 * Wolfdog's question doesn't really make sense. What other English would people long in New Mexico be speaking other than New Mexican English. He demands a source for the fact that different ethnic minorities speaking in English in NM speak the NM variety of it, which is silly to begin with, but is already sourced from Hernández to begin with; to quote it again in shorter form: "the inhabitants ... are not recent immigrants ... [and] their English is not a result of language interference but is strongly rooted in the region transcending age, race and socioeconomic status" (hint: "race" = "ethnicity" in this context).
 * This is another argument that doesn't make sense. [Norther] New Mexican  English (I'll juse NMCE henceforth) is, obviously, a subtopic of both Chicano English and New Mexico English, and should be covered at the latter in detail and at the former in summary form [not the other way around; see below for why], per WP:SUMMARY. When facts are relevant to two articles we do not forcibly hide them in one. If the NMCE material were moved into the CE article to weaken the NME article so it looks more deletion-worthy, that would be WP:GAMING, and it would actually fail, since removal of that subtopic from the NME article will still leave all of the rest of the history of English in the state/territory, which would still remain a notable, sourced topic, and thus necessitate both the keeping of the article and the readdition of the NMCE material as relevant but missing. The effort to merge into this article would effectively be little different from a WP:POVFORK with little effect but temporarily making the NME article worse.
 * NME is a regional dialect (used by non-Chicacnos and as register / code by Chicanos), while NMCE is a cultural one (used only by Mexican-Americans, apt to self-identify as "Chicano" or increasingly "Hispanic" around Albuquerque and southward, but "Nuevomexicano", or "Spanish" in the north, many of the latter with a different background than Chicanos of TX and CA) that can be classified, sprachbund-wise, as essentially where NME and CE intersect, though historically speaking that assessment is actually a linguistically genetic falsehood. Because NMCE is developmentally a subset of (and strong influence on) general NME, as Tejano (Texan Chicano English) is on Texan English more broadly, the geographical dialect articles are the proper place to cover both ethno-cultural sub-dialects in detail, while the CE article should summarize them as relevant related material – separately derived from related "stock", and thus a case of parallel and partially convergent linguistic "evolution". The only actual connections between NMCE/Tejano and CE are a) a historical cultural connection to Mexico (that has differed), and a modern subcultural/political/literary la Causa / la Raza connection mediated through publishing and broadcasting, after the dialects had already been established.  (The connection between NMCE and Tejano is a little bit closer but only a little; in many ways, Tejano is closer related to CACE than to NMCE, which has been culturally more isolated and mostly has little to do with the US/Mexican-border cultural and linguistic interface. The "SNME" and "SNMCE" of borderland s.e. New Mexico, around Las Cruces and Hatch, blends into w. TE & Tejano as much as into more northerly NM[C]E.  It's wrong to think of these dialectal continuums as defined by national and state borders, which are culturally permeable.  NME and NMCE likewise extend into s. CO, and e. AZ - I'm skeptical that a distinct "AZE" and "AZCE" can even be identified, since so much of the state was empty desert until the 20th c. (and so much of it remains so), while the suburban TE (and TCE) of west TX effectively extends a ways into e. NM, e.g. in Portales and Clovis, where I lived for some time; we were not speaking Burqueño or [N]NMCE there, and most of the "old" families (Anglo, Hispanic and a few black) in that area were originally from TX/OK in the 1800s (many of the  families in n. NM are Hispanic, and date to the colonial period).

 * Anyway, this proposal is basically part of a months-long campaign to get rid of the article New Mexico English at all costs.   I do share Wolfdog's and others' concerns over the weak sourcing in the NME article, its confusion of the Burqueño sub-dialect of Bernalillo and Sandoval counties, or the NMCE dialect of rural n. NM, with that of the entire region (though he seems to make use of this confusion himself when it suits his own argument), and some of the questionably encyclopedic material in it, but those are matters for improvement by research and editing, not rationales for deletion or for merging away the article by WP:COATRACKing its content into Chicano English where it will be on a WP:COATRACK. A better solution would be to re-title and re-scope New Mexico English (presently trying to be about a purported dialect that has resisted efforts to source it clearly and consistently as such) into English in New Mexico, which is a much better-sourceable topic, and which can cover ideas about what constitutes regional or local "dialects proper" as subtopics.  The problem with the article as it stands is POV and OR aimed at focusing on English in the state as a named dialect, when the evidence more properly leads us to treat English in the region, centered on the modern US state, as a historical, broad topic, and inside of which at least two dialects of differing sorts can be distinguished (urban and suburban Burqueño around Albuquerque, and what is more broadly meant by "New Mexico English" as a dialect, across the top 2/3 or so of the state (including NMCE as an ethnic subdialect well into s. CO). There may or may not be enough material to properly source a separate dialect in the south, one that is more like SW TX Eng. in detail and historically (and parallels So. Cal Eng. developmentally), with strong, modern influence from recent Mexican immigration (which has also influenced Burqueño, but barely touched [N]NMCE. In short: it's a viable historical language-use article with the sources we already have, but as a linguistic dialect article, it will necessarily cover a dialect continuum over the much of the former NM Territory, and for which we don't yet have enough source material. By changing it to focus on the historical aspects, the dialectal ones can be added in more detail over time. Doing it the other way around is raising too many problems and too much desire to undo the article.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  08:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to make NME look more deletion-worthy; I was suggesting the option of a merge. As you've referenced, we already had the deletion discussion and it ended in "no consensus." As far as anyone can tell, "no consensus" means that there is no clear agreement among editors. But this doesn't negate the pursuit of a better place to fit the information given (especially coming from the perspective that, yes, the info was weak already, so perhaps it serves better as a section of another article, rather than its own full article; this is not a conniving or sinister way of thinking). It suddenly occurred to me recently, after acquiring and reading the Hernández article, that "New Mexican English" appears to be decently supported as a type of Chicano English, including when I looked back through the other sources. Meanwhile, SMcCandlish, you seem to be an utter wellspring of knowledge on New Mexican English. You are clearly knowledgeable on the topic, so why can't you help us find any stronger sources? You say that you agree the page is poorly sourced as it stands. Meanwhile, you so definitively inform us about a "Burqueño sub-dialect," specific ethnic self-descriptions that vary throughout the state, "Southern New Mexico Chicano English," the Tejano variety, etc. This is great information! Cite the sources that taught you all this! My main concerns and requests in my various discussions related to New Mexican English have been about sourcing. We're on the same page here.
 * So, yes, let's give it a rest. Here: I second your renaming/rescoping solution, SMcCandlish. And apparently my question does make sense, since you mirror it in the very solution you propose: "English in New Mexico" could discuss a range of different English-language patterns in the state, rather than implying a single unified dialect, as you admit "New Mexican English" does. Since we've always meant "English in New Mexico," this clears up a lot of my confusion... speaking of confusion. This whole time, I always thought people were trying to argue that New Mexico English is its own dialect, as the lede of the article has repeated stated. Wolfdog (talk) 21:36, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * At least you're being honest finally, but since your simply trying to delete the article, I do not agree with moving New Mexican English to "English in New Mexico". This is referring to a region that primarily speaks English, "English in..." articles usually refer to places where English is not the primary language. See English in the United Kingdom, English in the USA, and English in Canada, compared to English in Barbados and English in Puerto Rico. I can't find any American state that has its language article listed as "English in...". Why should New Mexico be any different? See Category:American English. Even out of the different versions of Category:British English I cannot find any "English in..." articles. And, honestly if we're going to suddenly make this distinction regarding one American state we would then need to evaluate the subjective dialectic and accented qualities of each to determine its proper article name. It seems to me that your only intention is to remove "New Mexican English" is misguided. JoinerFact (talk) 01:08, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You're mistaking an accident of WP:COMMONNAME application for some kind of naming convention; it's a case of correlation is not causation. By coincidence, most major, identified dialects are named in the form "Adjectival geonym English". When they have not been (e.g. because of ambiguity or repetitiveness, as with the case of English language in England not "English English"), or when they have not been identified by enough sources for us to be sure they have a name (as in the case of the use, history, and nature of English in New Mexico), we don't use that name format. PS: The reason that English language in England is at that title and not at English in England is because the latter appears to mean the English people in England (i.e., vs. the original Brittonic inhabitants, the Norman invaders, and modern immigrants). This confusion does not arise with English in New Mexico really, so WP:CONCISE would probably have us use the shorter name. There would be no need to rename Texas English, etc., to English in Texas, etc., since we have a substantial body of sources using that term. The only one that's proving hard to source with a consistent meaning and consistent terminology is "New Mexican English". As much as I want that to not be the case, and as much as I expect it will not be the case forever.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  08:59, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * People arguing that New Mexico English is its own dialect, and it's just as valid an argument as the one for Texan English or California English.  But, per WP:TRUTH, we don't have to care right now; either we have sufficient sourcing to write the article that way, or we don't, and it seems that at present we don't.  I doubt this will be the case indefinitely, as more journals' content comes online.  I've recently gotten access to a few more journal search sites via WP:LIBRARY, so maybe something will turn up.  Really, this would ideally be dealt with by someone who is faculty or a student at UNM, since they'd have not only all the university subscribed academic search resources, but also the entire UNM library, which is piled high with paper sources most of which are not going to be put online within our lifetimes if ever. I wish this had come up when I at UNM [sigh].  PS: I was not implying a nefarious motive, just an unhelpful proposed result; it doesn't help readers to merge a regional dialect (or language use and history) article into one that is politco-ethno-cultural.  As complained higher up the page, the CE article itself also has different regionality issues, since it seems to focus on L.A.-area Chicano English; it probably needs to be reorganized to sort that material into a section on California CE, followed by -linked sections on [N]NMCE and Tejano that point to the relevant sections at English in New Mexico and Texan English. Though I guess that also means we need to reorganize New Mexican English into English in New Mexico first with a section on Northern New Mexico Chicano English, or something to this effect. [insert headache]. CE is best approached as political and cultural topic, like the Celtic language revival in the Celtic fringe (not sure we have an article on that under another, non-redlinked name, but we certainly should, and the relevant rootstock material is now in Category:Celtic language revival); the linguistic information would mostly remain in the language/dialect specific articles like Irish language, Manx language (which has also been classified before as a dialect of Irish), etc. Those are essentially analogous to California English, New Mexico English/English in New Mexico, etc.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  08:59, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, SMcCandlish. I appreciate your explanations/clarifications (though JoinerFact still simply takes me for a liar). JoinerFact, I said I'd be in favor of a retitling, so you can put your accusations to rest that I'm just ravenous about deletions. I'm ravenous about not misleading readers, just as you are from your own separate POV. I agree with SMcCandlish's most recent arguments, including the point that "we don't have to care" yet. That's what I've been trying to say: without sources, original research is interesting to read but, as far as the encyclopedia is concerned, as good as nonsense.
 * English language in northern England is the recent retitling of what was "Northern England English" (and earlier, simply, "Northern English") though this was likely done to avoid SMcCandlish's point about repetition. The same for Southern England English. My point is there are, yes, some conventions for naming language pages on WP, but not just one. As said, names are supposed to be based on a considerable body of sources using that term. This is perhaps my main frustration about "New Mexican English," as I'm now realizing. There is nothing strong enough showing that the "New Mexico English" of the encyclopedia.com article, e.g., is exactly same as the "Burqueño dialect" of the Wilson video is exactly same as the "English in the Southwest" of the Busby article, etc. etc. I'll admit here that I've been willing to assume they were all the same on occasions when going along with local editors' good-faith and potentially true claims that we were all referring to one dialect, thus trying to reconcile these different names in my head.
 * JoinerFact, the reason that you "can't find any American state that has its language article listed as 'English in...'" is because linguistic boundaries hardly ever conform to state boundaries anyway, as SMcCandlish has pointed out. For example, on Wikipedia, "Western Pennsylvania English"/"Pittsburgh English" is called neither "Pennsylvania English" nor "English in Pennsylvania", and "New York City English" is called neither "New York English" nor "English in New York," because such dialects do not cover the whole state. However, in other cases, such as "California English", the title does have the name of the state in it because it is a single mostly uniform variety being discussed (though this certainly does not have to be the case forever, since San Francisco, for example, may be developing its own separate variety). My understanding is that "English in California," on the other hand, would imply to me a broad discussion of possibly many different varieties specific to California. (By the way, I confess that I'm very confused about what the deal is with "Texan English," right now, since my original understanding is that it would be talking about what the ANAE calls the "Texas South" variety. However, I understand that there are many varieties specific to Texas, and if this diversity is what the page will focus on, then I'd again think it clearer to rename it "English in Texas" or "English language in Texas"). I'm reminded of how editors felt uncomfortable keeping "New Jersey English," since there is obviously no monolithic dialect/variety throughout the state, and instead used the format of "New Jersey English dialects." I participated in a discussion that ended with us simply making the original name into a disambiguation page; however, "English in New Jersey" now occurs to me as another logical possibility. Wolfdog (talk) 11:40, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Right. Both the "hard to source this as a region-wide dialect" and the "Is X really the same as Y and the same as Z" problem is the reason I've been suggesting we move this to a catch-all descriptive disambiguation / concept disambiguation / general history page, called English in New Mexico (or English language in New Mexico if we want to be long-winded). That gives room to develop the article the way the sources allow, instead of trying to force uncooperative sources into an artificial "we can only write about this as a region-wide dialect" all-or-nothing box. I've opened a WP:RM at Talk:New Mexico English. PS: Outside of NM, I've lived longest in CA, and yes, the SF Bay Area dialect is markedly different from that around L.A. No one up here uses that "Like, omigaw-awd" San Fernando Valley accent; general Bay Area English dialect (and it various sociolects, like it's own form of Black Vernacular English) probably has more in common with the Seattle variety.  There's a whole West Coast English continuum. It's difficult to write about this stuff encyclopedically (especially on WP, where anyone can edit, and anyone can bring their national, state/region/county/province, and local prides and prejudices with them) since and actual linguists often use generalizing terms like "Texan English", knowing that it's a shorthand meaning "imagine an uneven dialectal radius blending in with others, and this one happens to center more or less on much of Texas", while it ends up playing to these human factors, leading to misleading articles and disputes about them, because non-linguists think it means "English within the borders of Texas, homogenously and uniquely". PPS: Yes, my anecdotal ramblings are encyclopedically useless, but hopefully they indicate some steerage ideas.  It's not really plausible that NM English, in the linguistic dialect continuum sense, has not been written about in academic journals; it's just in older paper ones no one's put online yet. Odds are, most of it came directly out the linguistics depts. at UNM and NMSU (not ENMU; I went there for a year back in '88 or so, and it's tiny and under-funded, more like a community college).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  12:07, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I really appreciate both your collegiality as well as your ramblings. Let's see how that new requested move discussion goes. Wolfdog (talk) 16:32, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * As a former New Mexican I must say that this is like merging apples to oranges.Chicano English deals with primarily Mexican-Americans, and New Mexican English is much more related to the Hispanos of New Mexico. Those two groups are not interdependent on one another, they are completely separate entities.178.209.51.23 (talk) 05:26, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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One thing that should be added to this article is the way Chicano English is perceived by non speakers, like the stereotypes people have about Chicano English speakers. Rfilippone13 (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060514082649/http://www.tomveatch.com/Veatch1991/node101.html to http://tomveatch.com/Veatch1991/node101.html

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I do think more needs to be added to the phonology section, here is a link that could help with that https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057%2F9780230510012_4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordansanchez1 (talk • contribs) 04:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

The phonology section is extremely inaccurate
I know a lot about this accent, since I have an Hispanic background and hail from Southern California, and the phonology section is not based in reality. I even get the feeling that the major editor of that section has never even heard the dialect/accent themselves. It seems to be based on a preconception of an accent of someone who is in some way related to an Hispanic national. Articles like this need to be razed and begun again from scratch. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the inclination... at least not currently.  Lighthead  þ 19:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Everything in the consonant section, besides th-stopping (which occurs among non-Hispanics too) is unsourced. I personally haven't heard any of those features, besides the light L, in people who grew up speaking English, so I'll just go ahead and delete them. The vowel section seems more accurate and well-sourced. Erinius (talk) 17:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chicano English


text:
User talk:Albertus Pictor

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Beauchamp-Feuillet
The diagram comes from a guide by Philippa Waite & Judith Appleby, Beauchamp-Feuillet Notation: A Guide for Beginner and Intermediate Baroque Dance Students (2003 Consort de Danse Baroque; ISBN 0-9544423-0-X). It contains descriptions of all the elements used in the notation — too extensive for me to post here or send easily. The book is available from Philippa Waite (buy it here). If you need her postal address or telephone number, I can supply that by e-mail. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 13:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

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User talk:Saba404

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Welcome Saba. Those are some useful reference pages you can read -- especially the five pillars since you probably understand that language. gren グレン 02:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

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Noam Okun

Noam Okun (נעם אוקון; born 16 April 1978) is an Israeli retired professional tennis player.

He reached a career-high singles ranking of World No. 95 in April 2002. Okun won several challenger tournaments in his career, and was a consistent competitor on the ATP tour, often qualifying for Grand Slam events.

He, Harel Levy, and Dudi Sela were Israel's top singles players for a number of years. Okun trained at the Israel Tennis Centers.

Early life
Okun was born in Haifa, Israel. His parents are Igor (who works for Israeli Electric Company) and Galit (an assistant to an orthopedic doctor), and he is Jewish.

Tennis career
Okun began playing tennis at age nine, and was selected to be part of the Israeli Tennis Federation program after a short course at school.

He turned pro in 1999, at the age of 21.

In 2000, Okun qualified for the Australian Open, where he lost to hometown favorite Mark Philippoussis in a five-set thriller, 4–6, 2–6, 6–2, 6–3, 2–6. This was Okun's grand slam debut.

In March 2002, Okun upset Albert Portas of Spain, ranked # 26 in the world, 7–6(4), 6–4, in Scottsdale. In July 2002 he upset Sjeng Schalken of the Netherlands, ranked # 23 in the world, 7–6(5), 7–6(4), in Los Angeles. Okun qualified into the 2002 US Open, and lost to world # 1 and defending champion Lleyton Hewitt of Australia, 6–7(7), 4–6, 1–6 in the second round.

In August 2003 Okun upset Martin Verkerk of the Netherlands, ranked # 15 in the world, 3–6, 6–3, 6–1, in Cincinnati.

In August 2004, Okun won his first title in Binghamton, New York, beating Danai Udomchoke 6–3, 4–6, 6–1 for the title.

In June 2005, Okun qualified for Wimbledon, and lost to Gaël Monfils 6–3, 4–6, 4–6, 6–7(14) in the first round. In September 2005, Okun qualified for the US Open and lost to Mariano Puerta 6–7(4), 7–6(3), 4–6, 0–6 in the first round.

In September 2006, Okun qualified for the US Open, and beat Potito Starace 6–2, 6–0, 4–6, 6–2 in the first round. Okun went down to Łukasz Kubot in the second round, 6–7(7), 4–6, 6–2, 6–2, 4–6.

In July 2007, Okun won his second challenger title in Winnetka, Illinois, beating South Africa's Kevin Anderson 6–4, 6–3 in the final.

In February 2009 he won an Israel F2 tournament, and lost in the finals of an Israel F3 tournament to Harel Levy, by walkover. In August and September 2009, he won three tournaments—an Israel F4, F5 and F6 tournament.

In March 2015, he played in an Israel F3 tournament in Ramat HaSharon, Israel, and lost in the finals to Isak Arvidsson of Sweden.

Davis Cup
Okun was a major force on the Israeli Davis Cup team, playing for it in 1999 and since 2001, going 17–16, and winning both of his matches in Israel's 2006 3–2 victory over Great Britain. His Davis Cup record also includes big wins in live rubbers over Wayne Ferreira, Jarkko Nieminen, and Andreas Seppi.

title: Noam Okun


text:
Facial tissue

Facial tissue and paper handkerchief refers to a class of soft, absorbent, disposable papers that are suitable for use on the face. They are disposable alternatives for cloth handkerchiefs. The terms are commonly used to refer to the type of paper tissue, usually sold in boxes, that is designed to facilitate the expulsion of nasal mucus from the nose (nose-blowing) although it may refer to other types of facial tissues such as napkins and wipes.

Facial tissues are often referred to simply as "tissues", or (in Canada and the United States) by the generic trademark "Kleenex", which popularized the invention and its use outside of Japan.

Manufacture
Facial tissue and paper handkerchiefs are made from the lowest basis weights tissue paper (14–18 g/m2). The surface is often made smoother by light calendering. These paper types consist usually of 2–3 plies. Because of high quality requirements the base tissue is normally made entirely from pure chemical pulp, but might contain added selected recycled fiber. The tissue paper might be treated with softeners, lotions or added perfume to get the right properties or "feeling". The finished facial tissues or handkerchiefs are folded and put in pocket-size packages or a box dispenser.

Facial tissue may contain non-biodegradable additives for strength.

History

Facial tissue has been used for centuries in Japan, in the form of washi (和紙) or Japanese tissue, as described in this 17th-century European account of the voyage of Hasekura Tsunenaga:

 * "They blow their noses in soft silky papers the size of a hand, which they never use twice, so that they throw them on the ground after usage, and they were delighted to see people around them precipitate themselves to pick them up."

In 1924, facial tissues as they are known today were first introduced by Kimberly-Clark as Kleenex. It was invented as a means to remove cold cream. Early advertisements linked Kleenex to Hollywood makeup departments and sometimes included endorsements from movie stars (Helen Hayes and Jean Harlow) who used Kleenex to remove their theatrical makeup with cold cream. It was the customers that started to use Kleenex as a disposable handkerchief, and a reader review in 1926 by a newspaper in Peoria, Illinois found that 60% of the users used it for blowing their nose. The other 40% used it for various reasons, including napkins and toilet paper.

Kimberly-Clark also introduced pop-up, colored, printed, pocket, and 3-ply facial tissues.

Leading global players
The leading global players in Facial Tissue Market are:
 * Procter & Gamble
 * Seventh Generation
 * Kimberly-Clark
 * Essity
 * Asia Pulp and Paper
 * Hengan International
 * Vinda International
 * Georgia-Pacific
 * Sofidel Group
 * WEPA Group
 * Metsa Group
 * CMPC Tissue
 * Industrie Cartarie Tronchetti (ICT)
 * Kruger
 * Cascades
 * C&S Paper
 * Sallettalen y Briand s.l (sbpapel)

Notable brands in the United States

 * Puffs
 * Kleenex
 * Scotties
 * Seventh Generation
 * Fiora
 * Nice 'N Soft
 * Marcal
 * Green Forest

Notable brands outside the United States

 * Tempo (brand)
 * Renova (brand)

title: Facial tissue


text:
Angelina (Bob Dylan song)

"Angelina" is a song by American singer-songwriter Bob Dylan, recorded on March 26, 1981, for his album Shot of Love but not included on the record. The song was written by Dylan and produced by Jimmy Iovine. A version was released on The Bootleg Series Volumes 1-3 (Rare & Unreleased) 1961-1991 on March 26, 1991, exactly ten years later. A different take was issued on The Bootleg Series Vol. 16: Springtime in New York 1980–1985 in 2021. Critics have expressed their lack of understanding of the lyrics, whilst generally affording the song a positive reception. Dylan's rhyming of the name in the title of the song with "concertina", "hyena", "subpoena", "Argentina" and "arena" has attracted commentary, with scholar Nicholas Birns calling the rhymes "bravura and ... provocative".

Background and recording
"Angelina" was written by Bob Dylan after the end of his Gospel Tour, which concluded in May 1980. In October 1980, he recorded a version at Rundown Studios, Santa Monica, with himself on vocals and guitar, Fred Tackett (guitar and mandolin), Willie Smith (keyboards), Tim Drummond (bass), Jim Keltner (drums), and Clydie King, Carolyn Dennis and Regina McCrary (background vocals) Two takes were recorded on March 26, 1981, at Rundown Studios, with Jimmy Iovine as producer, during the sessions for Dylan's 21st studio album, Shot of Love. The 1981 sessions featured Dylan singing and playing piano, Drummond, Keltner, Dennis, McCrary and King in the same roles as on the 1980 version, Steve Ripley on guitar and Carl Pickhardt on keyboards. They were joined on the second take by Danny Kortchmar playing guitar.

Although "Angelina" had originally been chosen by Dylan to be the closing track of Shot of Love, it was cut from the album. Dylan has not explained the reasons for the song being omitted. On March 26, 1991, a second take, that featured piano and organ prominently, was released on The Bootleg Series Volumes 1-3 (Rare & Unreleased) 1961-1991. The first take, with a full band, was issued on The Bootleg Series Vol. 16: Springtime in New York 1980–1985 in 2021.

Composition and lyrical interpretation
Several commentators have expressed their inability to conclusively determine the mood or subject of the song. Scholar Nicholas Birns suggests that "one cannot quite know whether its mode is rapture, tribute, elegy, or rage." Author Michael Gray calls it "a difficult song to comprehend ... because of the disconnectedness, the impossible images, the general air of smudging that clings to it and the collision of the narrative into different genres as it passes." In 2004, Gray felt that the opening couplet: "Well, it's always been my nature to take chances My right hand drawin' back while my left hand advances"

was different from any of Dylan's other works, as it "appears candidly self-defining". Critic Oliver Trager wrote in 2004 that "Angelina" was unlike any of Dylan's other songs, "part surreal film, part cubist painting, and every bit as fractured as that combination suggests." Trager also noted that the song has some similarities with the opening chorus of the Gilbert and Sullivan work Trial by Jury, which references the character of Angeline, who is later called into court in the comic opera. Dylan biographer Clinton Heylin felt that the song could be regarded as a commentary on the final verses of Dylan's "Caribbean Wind" and "The Groom's Still Waiting at the Altar", both written at around the same time. Author Jim Beviglia thought that the name Angelina was chosen for its religious connotations, and speculated that the song could be addressing its narrator's faith rather than a person.

The lyrics reference various biblical verses, and refer to monkeys, giants, and four-faced angels. Each of the five verses has eight lines, with an AAABCCCB rhyming pattern; in all but one verse, the last line ends with the title, "Angelina". Birns described Dylan's rhyming, for example, of "Angelina" with "concertina", "subpoena", and particularly "Argentina", as "bravura and ... provocative", and noted that there was a repressive administration in Argentina when the song was composed. Heylin noted that other rhyming words used are "hyena" and "arena", and has called the song "a collection of lines bound together by a rhyming dictionary". Critic Paul Williams opined that "the 'feeling' of the Book of Revelation" invoked by Dylan's use of biblical imagery, rather than an understanding of each element, was important to appreciate the song.

The second verse opens with "Blood dryin' in my yellow hair as I go from shore to shore", which Gray proposes shows that the narrator is not Dylan. In one version, Angelina is described as having eyes that "were two slits, make any snake proud", and "With a face any painter would paint", and "well endowed". In a 1981 interview, Dylan compared the musical feel of the song to his own "Visions of Johanna", and said that "it seems to be very sensitive and gentle on one level, then on another level the lyrics aren't sensitive or gentle at all." Williams argued that "the lyrics are brilliant, but they only take on meaning as [Dylan] sings them", and that "to know the most private secrets of Dylan's relationship with God, with Woman, with his art and his audience, listen to the sound of his voice during this performance."

According to Dylan's official website, he has never played the song in concert.

The Bootleg Series Volumes 1–3 (1991)
Trager wrote that Dylan's performance "is striking as he combines the passion and intrigue of his best work of the mid-1960s." Gray opined that it was one of five 1980s tracks on the album that "it was "madness to have left unissued", although he suggested that the song's impenetrability made it a "compelling, grand failure". In The Guardian, Adam Sweeting wrote that "the phantasmagoric 'Angelina' could only have improved several of [Dylan's] dire eighties records." Beviglia included the track in 71st place in his ranking of Dylan's 100 best songs.

The Bootleg Series Vol. 16 (2021)
Allen Jones wrote for Uncut that the first take "feels already like something shaping up to be astonishing". Birns refers to the track as a "great Dylan song". For Record Collector, Nick Hasted called it a "wild saga of Revelations surrealism, Reaganite portents and symbolist visions, held together by simmering organ and Dylan's vocal spell". Williams describes the track as one of Dylan's "most disturbing and rewarding performances".

Personnel
Personnel for the March 26, 1981, versions were as follows:

Musicians Both takes: Second take only:
 * Bob Dylan –vocals, piano
 * Steve Ripley –guitar
 * Carl Pickhardt –keyboards
 * Tim Drummond –bass guitar
 * Jim Keltner –drums
 * Carolyn Dennis –backing vocals
 * Regina McCrary –backing vocals
 * Clydie King –backing vocals
 * Danny Kortchmar –guitar

Technical
 * Jimmy Iovine –producer

title: Angelina (Bob Dylan song)


text: User talk:166.70.192.163

title: User talk:166.70.192.163


text:
User talk:Htl2001

Welcome from EWS23
Hello ! My name is Eric, and it is my pleasure to be the first to welcome you to Wikipedia! I hope you will decide to stay a long time and help us continue to make this one of the greatest sites on the world wide web. Here are a few useful links for you to explore: In addition to that great wealth of knowledge, let me offer you this advice: do what you enjoy! If you enjoy contributing to sports articles, do so! If you like to correct typoes (...), write new articles, find better ways to organize articles, make useful templates, work on projects with others, or even welcome new members, do so! A happy member of our community is a productive member of our community. You can read all of the above links to the last word, or you can jump right into editing. Be bold!
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P.S.- If you'd like to introduce yourself to the community and perhaps get a question or two answered in the process, drop us a line at the new user log.

EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 02:17, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Final Fantasy
Hi, I'm updating the Participants list at the moment and noticed you joined last month but missed the last role call. Please stop by the project page and add yourself again if you want to. Cheers! Gamemaker 12:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

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If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified the non-free rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

title: User talk:Htl2001


text:
Kara Ben Nemsi

Kara Ben Nemsi is a fictional main character from the works of Karl May, best-selling 19th century German author. An alter ego of May, the stories about Nemsi are written as first-person narratives. He travels across North Africa, Sudan, and the Ottoman Empire including various parts of the Middle East and the Balkans with his friend and servant Hadschi Halef Omar.

Nemsi shares his two famous rifles with Old Shatterhand, another fictional alter ego of May, the Bärentöter (Bear Killer) and the Henrystutzen (Henry Carbine). He rides the famed black horse Rih (from Arabic رِيح meaning "wind").

Old Shatterhand
Kara Ben Nemsi and Old Shatterhand, who undertakes similar adventures in North America, are one and the same person, created through Karl May's first person narration and autobiographical influences. This becomes obvious in the novel Im Reiche des silbernen Löwen I (In the Realm of the Silver Lion, Volume I) where the narrator going by Old Shatterhand is located in the US and meets an acquaintance of his from the Orient to whom he reveals himself as "Kara Ben Nemsi". In another novel Satan und Ischariot II (Satan and Iscariot, Volume II), wherein Old Shatterhand travels to Tunis he also reveals himself to be Kara Ben Nemsi.

Origins and Meaning of the Name
May first introduces the terms "Nemsi“ and "Nemsistan“ in his third story set in the Orient Die Rose von Sokna (The Rose of Sokna) published in 1878. There he translates the terms used by a caravanner or rather by the Arab servant of the yet unnamed first-person narrator as "German" and "Germany" respectively. The name Kara Ben Nemsi first occurs in „Reise-Erinnerungen aus dem Türkenreiche von Karl May“ Giölgeda padiśhanün ("Travel-Memoirs from the Empire of Turks by Karl May" in the Shadow of the Padishah) later called Durch die Wüste (Through the desert) published in 1880/81 where it is spontaneously made up by servant Hadschi Halef Omar during an introduction: "This steadfast fellow had once asked my name and had truly remembered the word Karl, but being unable to pronounce it, he has quickly converted it to Kara and added Ben Nemsi, ‘offspring of the Germans’."

–G IÖLGEDA PADIŚHANÜN , 1880/81 In a later part of the story where May uses "Nemtsche-schimakler" ("Northern Germans, Prussia") and Nemtsche-memleketler ("Austrians") it becomes evident that May associates the terms "Nemsi" and "German" with a German state in the sense of the German Confederation instead of with the young German Empire in which he publishes these stories. “The most courageous man was the ‘Sultan el Kebihr’, but still he was vanquished by the Nemtshe-shimakler (Northern Germans, Prussia), the Nemtshe-memleketler (Austrians) and the Moskowler (Russians). Why do you look at me so intently?”

–G IÖLGEDA PADIŚHANÜN, 1880/81 When not taking about the name and in his later works May likes to use "Almani" and "Belad el Alman/Almanja" in his stories set in the Orient to mean 'German' and 'Germany' respectively: "The land is called Belad el Alman; therefore I am an Almani or, in case you have heard of that term, a Nemsi and am called Kara Ben Nemsi. My fatherland is located far across the sea."

– K RÜGER B EI, 1894/95 Belad el Alman ("Land of Germans“) is also directly associated with Kaiser Wilhelm I and therefore the German Empire: "I have heard of the Belad el Alman. It is ruled by a great sultan, who is called Wi-hel (Wilhelm) and has defeated the French. They are our enemies; therefore every Almani is a friend of ours and my people will be delighted to see you. Of course you're also a warrior?"

– E INE B EFREIUNG (A Liberation), 1894

The Ottoman Turkish نمچه (rendered nemçe or nemse in modern Turkish) meant Austrian, the German language, or the Habsburg monarchy from it derives the modern Arabic اَلنَّمْسَا meaning Austria and نِمْسَاوِيّ  meaning Austrian. The term likely originates from the Proto-Slavic word for Germans, němьcь meaning literally "someone who is mute" referring to foreigners in general and Germans specifically. Modern Arabic refers to a German man as أَلْمَانِيّ and to Germany as أَلْمَانِيَا.

In Ottoman Turkish قره (Modern Turkish ', Azerbaijani Turkish ') means black. It can be found used as first name in Turkish (see for example Kara Osman). The Ottoman Turkish spelling of this first name matches that of an Arabic name held by for example the Sabian Mathematician Thābit ibn Qurra this name however is of semitic origin and has no relation to the Turkish name.

A possible Ottoman Turkish rendition of the name Kara Ben Nemsi would therefore be قره بن نمچی. As most current Arabic dialects do not have a letter directly corresponding to çīm in Ottoman Turkish and because Persian yeh corresponds to Arabic yāʾ a rendition of the name in modern Arabic would be قره بن نمسي.

In his later work May seems to prefer deriving Kara directly from the color of his beard instead of his first name: "Concerning my name, I was not called by my actual name but instead as during my previous travels, I was called Kara Ben Nemsi. Kara means "black" and Ben Nemsi "son of Germans". I sported a dark beard and was a German; therefore this name."

– E INE B EFREIUNG (A Liberation), 1894

Original German stories

 * Durch Wüste und Harem (1892), since 1895 with the title Durch die Wüste
 * Durchs wilde Kurdistan (1892)
 * Von Bagdad nach Stambul (1892)
 * In den Schluchten des Balkan (1892)
 * Durch das Land der Skipetaren (1892)
 * Der Schut (1892)
 * Orangen und Datteln (1893, Anthology: Die Gum, Der Krumir and others)
 * Eine Befreiung (within Die Rose von Kaïrwan, 1894)
 * Im Lande des Mahdi I (1896)
 * Im Lande des Mahdi II (1896)
 * Im Lande des Mahdi III (1896)
 * Satan und Ischariot II (1897)
 * Er Raml el Helahk (within Auf fremden Pfaden, 1897)
 * Blutrache (within Auf fremden Pfaden, 1897)
 * Der Kutb (within Auf fremden Pfaden, 1897)
 * Der Kys-Kaptschiji (within Auf fremden Pfaden, 1897)
 * Maria oder Fatima (within Auf fremden Pfaden, 1897)
 * Im Reiche des silbernen Löwen I (1898)
 * Die »Umm ed Dschamahl« (1898)
 * Im Reiche des silbernen Löwen II (1898)
 * Am Jenseits (1899)
 * Im Reiche des silbernen Löwen III (1902)
 * Im Reiche des silbernen Löwen IV (1903)
 * Bei den Aussätzigen (1907)
 * Abdahn Effendi (1908)
 * Merhameh (1909)
 * Ardistan und Dschinnistan I (1909)
 * Ardistan und Dschinnistan II (1909)

In the story An der Tigerbrücke (within Am Stillen Ocean, 1894) the first-person narrator mentions, that he is identical to Kara Ben Nemsi and Old Shatterhand.

Within the book series Karl May’s Gesammelte Werke there is a sequel of Am Jenseits: „In Mekka“ (1923) by Franz Kandolf.

English translations of Karl May's works

 * Amazon.com (Karl May's works translated by Marlies Bugmann)
 * Nemsi Books (Publisher of new unabridged translations)

title: Kara Ben Nemsi


text:
Blackburn College (Illinois)

Blackburn College is a private college in Carlinville, Illinois. It was established in 1837 and named for Gideon Blackburn. The college is affiliated with the Presbyterian Church (USA).

Blackburn is a federally recognized work college with a student-managed work program, enabling students to gain leadership experience as they manage other students. All resident students are required to work, but the program is optional for commuters. Each student who works receives a tuition discount for the hours they work.

History
Blackburn College established in 1837 and named for the Rev. Gideon Blackburn, a Presbyterian minister who helped raise funds for the school. By 1855, instruction began at the college. Within two years (1857), the school was chartered as Blackburn Theological Seminary, and the first unit of University Hall was erected. By 1862, several buildings had been developed for study on campus including space for the "Blackburn Academy" an organization for a campus grade and high school. From 1837 until 1864, the school only admitted male students. During 1864, the first woman attended Blackburn, and thus radicalized the movement of admitting female students. In 1864, the school had also been recognized and established as a four-year institution.

In 1869, a new charter was developed that changed the name from Blackburn Theological Seminary to Blackburn University. In 1871, the first draft of the Blackburn Newspaper was established. Today, it is known as the 'Burnian and is the oldest college newspaper still published in Illinois.

William M. Hudson began his tenure as college president in 1912. A year later, he initiated the Student "Self Help Plan" which helped participating students pay $100 tuition in exchange to work 3 hours a day of manual labor. During President Hudson's tenure Blackburn showed much progress. Starting in 1916, students could receive a Certificate of Associates of Arts, and in 1917, the last Blackburn class graduated from the four-year institution.

In the coming years, Blackburn would be established as a Junior College (1918) revoking the charter to have a four-year institution; the school was thus renamed Blackburn College. Between 1922 and 1924, a large project had been developed and the Construction of the central heating plant occurred between 1922 and 1924, along with the first (and oldest) residential building, Stoddard Hall. Stoddard Hall (1924-current) continues as the oldest student-constructed building on campus, and continues to house current Blackburn College students.

McKinley House (1926) was constructed due to a gift given by Senator McKinley. It serves as the housing unit for the college president and their familie(s) during their position at Blackburn College (formerly university). The 1930s offered a lot of progress and perseverance for the school. The previous years several buildings were plagued by fire and destruction, however, by 1930 Hudson Hall was constructed and served as the main academic building replacing the previous building, which burnt down in 1927 (Olde Main). The institution also discarded the Pullman cars as temporary housing units and discontinued the original Blackburn Academy. Other prominent additions were added during this time such as the Diary House, Dawes Gymnasium and the school being accredited by the North Central Associations of Colleges and Schools as a Junior College.

By 1947, the school was re-established as Bachelor of Arts degree institution and the completion of the Library Annex were distinct events during the 1940s for Blackburn College. Three years later, the institution was re-accredited as a four-year bachelor's degree obtaining institution. Jones-Allison Hall was constructed in 1949. The 1950s-1960s saw a lot of growth of academic and residential buildings completed. In 1964, the Lumpkin Library was completed, later known as the Lumpkin Learning Commons. At this point in time, the Associates of Arts degree had been discontinued.

The 1970s saw additions to older buildings and renovations to older spaces for more updates such as a computer center establish in the first level of Hudson Hall or the development of a pool in the Dawes Gymnasium. By the year 2000 Hudson Hall had been completely renovated.

2002: The construction of Demuzio Campus Center (DCC) completed and operation ensues. This building houses all main campus events such as: Kitchen and/or dining hall, snackbar, Student Affairs Office, Work Program Office, Mail room and the Campus Bookstore.

2008: The Marvin and Ingrid Mahan Science Laboratory constructed = which is one of the first LEED rated buildings in central Illinois, houses state of the art laboratories for biology, chemistry, biochemistry, faculty offices, and a large enclosed atrium.

2009: Swimming pool closed permanently.

2014-2016: Several phases of the Lumpkin Learning Commons renovations had been completed to have a new state-of-the-art Learning Center for students. The C.H.C. Anderson Center ("The Den") renovations are completed and renamed to Claire Jaenke Alumni Welcome Center in C.H.C. Anderson.

2017: The completion of the Dawes Fitness Center located on the East side of the Dawes Gymnasium.

In 2019, Blackburn college announced and began the construction of an 8-acre solar farm. The project was finished in August 2019.

Campus
Blackburn College has 13 academic/administrative buildings, 6 residence halls, and several athletic facilities throughout the campus. Many of these buildings were co-constructed by students as part of the college's Work Program. The campus itself lies on 80 acres of land in Carlinville, Illinois, a small, rural community about an hour north of downtown St. Louis.

Bordered by University Street to the west and Nicholas Street to the south, College Avenue serves as the main artery through the campus and enters through the gates of the college. Along this route, many historical campus landmarks can be seen, including Hudson Hall, Stoddard Hall, and Butler Hall, the three oldest buildings on campus.

Academics
The institution is accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. 96% of the college's students are full-time, defined as taking a minimum of 12 credits a semester. If students are from an area that falls into the project MAP Grant, a minimum of 15 credits will be required to obtain that grant. 4% of the student population is part-time, allowing for majority of the campus to be full-time students at Blackburn College completing their undergraduate degree. 43% of undergraduates are men, while 57% are women.

Blackburn College is one of many institutions that offer teaching license after the completion of the Education program in the desired division of education programming. Blackburn is accredited to license their teachers through the Illinois State Board of Education.

Blackburn College removed standardized tests from the application process in November 2021. Blackburn College also joined the CommonApp network in 2021.

Work Program
The Work Program was first instituted at Blackburn College in 1913 by William M. Hudson as a means to provide access to higher education to individuals with the academic ability but who lacked financial stability. Therefore, a cost reduction program began at Blackburn College. This "Self-Help Plan", as it was first called, required students to participate in 3 hours a day of manual labor in exchange for the payment of their tuition. This financial model remains an important value of the Work Program today. However, a larger emphasis is put on the opportunities it provides for student learning. Today, the work program consists of 12 Work Departments: Academic Services, Administration Services, Athletic Services, Bookstore, Campus Community and Safety, Community Services, Dining and Hospitality, Lumpkin Student Success Center, Campus Services, Campus Maintenance, Snack Bar, and Technology Services. As of 2020, all resident students work 160 hours each semester (10 hours a week) in partnership with faculty and staff to help provide all services essential to college operations. Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, some on-campus work was offered remotely. Currently, in-person work for the work program has resumed.

Athletics
Blackburn's athletic teams compete in Division III of the NCAA's St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. Blackburn, whose teams are known athletically as the Beavers, was a member of the Illinois Intercollegiate Athletic Conference from 1914 to 1923. Blackburn has fielded championship teams in men's basketball, women's basketball, football, men's golf, baseball, and quidditch. The men's golf team earned the most recent SLIAC championship in 2010.

In January 2009, the college announced that it would stop fielding a football team after the 2008–2009 school year.

Men's sports

 * Basketball
 * Baseball
 * Cross country
 * Golf
 * Soccer
 * Track
 * Wrestling

Women's sports

 * Basketball
 * Cross country
 * Golf
 * Soccer
 * Softball
 * Track
 * Volleyball
 * Wrestling

Notable alumni

 * Mary Hunter Austin, nature writer and novelist
 * Anthony Beale, Chicago alderman and congressional candidate
 * Pug Bennett, Major League Baseball player for St. Louis Cardinals
 * Karl Berning, Illinois State Senator
 * Paul M. Bingham, molecular biologist
 * Frank W. Burton, Illinois state legislator and judge
 * Lois B. DeFleur, sociologist, former president of Binghamton University
 * Clarence J. Goodnight, zoologist
 * Mark Kirk, former U.S. Senator from Illinois (attended briefly)
 * Peter F. Mack Jr., U.S. Congressman
 * Kossoy Sisters, singing act
 * Truman H. Landon, General and Commander, U.S. Air Force
 * Bruce Pavitt, cofounder of Sub Pop Records (attended briefly)
 * Dennis Phillips, professional poker player
 * Charles Robertson, entomologist
 * Craig F. Stowers, Chief Justice of the Alaska Supreme Court
 * Jamie Young, assistant coach, Boston Celtics
 * Sam McCann, Illinois State Senator, 49th District, Later 50th District
 * William L. Mounts, Illinois House of Representatives and Senators
 * John Thomson Faris, Editor, Author, and Clergyman
 * Richard D. Alexander, zoologist
 * William Hamilton Anderson, superintendent of the New York Anti-Saloon League
 * David Felmley, educator, president of Illinois State University from 1900 to 1930

List of presidents
20 Larry K. Lee July 2024 -- present

title: Blackburn College (Illinois)


text:
Odong

Odong, also called pancit odong, is a Visayan noodle soup made with odong noodles, canned smoked sardines (tinapa) in tomato sauce, bottle gourd (upo), loofah (patola), chayote, ginger, garlic, red onions, and various other vegetables. It is garnished and spiced with black pepper, scallions, toasted garlic, calamansi, or labuyo chilis. The dish is usually prepared as a soup, but it can also be cooked with minimal water, in which case, it is known as odong guisado.

It is a common simple and cheap meal in Mindanao (particularly the Davao Region) and the Visayas Islands. It is almost always eaten with white rice, rarely on its own.

It is named after the round flour noodles called odong which are closest in texture and taste to the Okinawa soba. These noodles are characteristically sold dried into straight sticks around 6 to 8 in long. The name is derived from the Japanese udon noodles, although it does not use udon noodles or bear any resemblance to udon dishes. It originates from the Davao Region of Mindanao which had a large Japanese migrant community in the early 1900s. The odong noodles were previously locally manufactured by Okinawans, but modern odong noodles (which are distinctly yellowish) are imported from China. Because odong noodles are difficult to find in other regions, they can be substituted with other types of noodles; including misua, miki (egg noodles), udon, and even instant noodles.

title: Odong


text:
User talk:Hdstubbs

Please leave me a message! Yay! I finally got a message! Hdstubbs 04:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Indeed you did. Can I be of any help to you on the project? DES (talk) 18:39, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place   on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! DES (talk) 04:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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Hello and cleanup
(copied from User talk:DESiegel):

Thank you for your kind welcome. Actually, I do have a question. I really enjoy contributing to Wikipedia but my favorite thing to do is detailed copy-editing. Like reading something, fixing corrections and then giving suggestions on how to improve the article overall. Is there a list of articles that wish to have this done to them? Hdstubbs 19:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There is Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit, and also Category:Wikipedia references cleanup, and quite a few other categories listed at Category:Wikipedia cleanup categories. We can use all the help we can get on that kind of editing. DES (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

How toi control pictures
See Picture tutorial for more options and details on the syntax for inseerting pictures into articels. DES (talk) 16:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

COTW Project
You voted for Aeronautics, this week's Collaboration of the week. Please come and help it become a featured-standard article. -- King of Hearts | (talk) 19:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 03:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Reversion
Just a heads up.

I just reverted your deletion of a sentence regarding US median age figures. I feel this sentence should stay in as we have very little good data on infection rates. Mexican data is no good and there is no other country with enough data to give any sort of figures at all. I think at this stage we can't avoid being America centric if we want passable statistics. Barnaby dawson (talk) 19:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Hdstubbs


text:
User:Saobe

Saobe ( Sung Bae Son, born in 1972 ~) Korean/Brazilian graphic designer.

Saobe is best known for using vivid color and expressive typography in his work.

title: User:Saobe


text:
User talk:Chaosoul

Chaosoul

title: User talk:Chaosoul