text:
Talk:Reel-to-reel audio tape recording

NAB
Q. What are "NAB adaptors"? Bastie 11:02, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

See also related discussion at Talk:Compact audio cassette. Bastie 14:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I think: adapters for mounting 10-1/2 inch reels of tape which IIRC always had the large "NARTB" or "NAB" hubs on machines that had dual-purpose spindles, capable of accepting both the 10-1/2 reels and the smaller reels which always had, I dunno, maybe 5/16" holes and were identical in dimensions to 8 mm movie reels (as I can testify from experiment). Dpbsmith (talk) 20:35, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Its an interesting contribution but original research If we could find a source and a more accurate figure than "I dunno, maybe...." We could include an explanation within the article. 94.0.215.193 (talk) 13:53, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

The statement is correct and common knowledge, they could also be referred to as NAB hubs, they are used to adapt from the standard flange (for up to 7" reels) to the larger one used for professional tapes usually 10.5 inches. http://lossenderosstudio.com/glossary.php?index=n — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.210.170 (talk) 10:55, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Once a common household object?
The caption for the nice picture of a Sony TC-630 tape recorder says it was "once a common household object."

I don't think so. Tape recorders never came anywhere near to being as common as photographs were before or cassette recorders were afterward.

They were not particularly rare. To be sure, my dad had a Wollensak reel-to-reel tape recorder--but I don't think he was typical as we also, at various times, owned a wire recorder, a Recordio disk recorder, and a huge vacuum-tube tape recorder with a "magic eye" level indicator that was so old that it said "Brush Development Corporation" on it.

But they were sort of a specialty item. The cheaper ones (like the Wollensak) were common enough in schools. Serious audiophiles had them, of course. In fact the TC-630 seems to me to be getting up to what would now be called the "prosumer" level.

In my entire life (so far), I have only met one single person who had a reel-to-reel tape recorder in his house for the purpose of playing prerecorded tapes. He had a collection of several hundred of them; that is, the tape recorder served the same purpose as a good phonograph did in many other houses. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I would agree that the TC-630 is a little more upscale than most people would have. But lower-end open reel decks (e.g. the TC-250 or 155) were quite common consumer items in the late '50s through early '70s.  Otherwise all of those factory recordings of pop albums would not have existed, for lack of market. —überRegenbogen 06:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

In the 60s, TC630 was widely used in household, school, hospital, etc, as an audio center with inputs for tuner, turntable, microphone, etc.For the bigger 10" reel capability, I used the Revox A77 with plug-in integrated amplifier.

Takima 00:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

 * "Common household product" is a bit of an exaggeration. They were more an early "consumer product for the enthusiast". When cassettes went mainstream in the 1970's their ownership proved to be far more widespread. 94.0.215.193 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:02, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Pretty common around 1970, I would say - I bought one that had been used to keep a family (split between UK and Australia) 'in touch' - think of Skype, but audio-only, with a two-week delay! Another had been used on a submarine, where vinyl would be impractical. Every school would have them for pupils to interview each other and old people for 'history', as well as for replaying BBC education programmes that were scheduled and broadcast overnight. Radio fans recorded 'fave progs' - great for 'lost episodes' turning-up in attics and garages. Every record shop would also sell music on reel tapes, 'compact cassettes' and [8-track tape] for the car.
 * It was a brief blip before the 'cassette' took over around 1974. Domestic machines were cheaply-made, obsolescent at birth and unreliable (rubber-bands!) so few survive today.
 * These were more commmon?
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPxTy9SQu90
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwoxNrqYHU
 * Maybe 'this tape player was as common at home as in the studio' rather than 'every home had one'?
 * --195.137.93.171 (talk) 10:22, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Frequency response
It would be nice if this article had a section on the frequency response for reel-to-reel tape. Of course, it would depend on speed. As recordings to magnetic tape capture analogue signals (like vinyl recordings), they don't suffer from the sampling and quantisation errors inherent in CD recordings. At 30 inches per second, it's no wonder that this was the top professional recording medium for so long.--ML5 15:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

 * But it does suffer from tape hiss... don't ignore tape hiss... I don't know about 30 ips but for some years I spent a fair amount of time at a campus radio station equipped with some Ampex 351's at 15 ips and hiss was clearly audible in the "silent" parts of any recording. You could tell at the start of any recording: the transition from unrecorded tape to "silent" recorded tape was obvious even to a casual listener.

 * When Dolby noise reduction was first introduced, the difference between LPs that had been mastered on Dolby-NR analog systems and those on non-Dolby systems was astonishing and dramatic. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

 * It not only depends on speed but the age/condition/quality of the equipment (and tape) used -not to mention associated equipment. An expensive tape recorder used with a cheap microphone wont produce good results. The skill/competence of the operator (in setting recording levels for example) also comes into play 94.0.215.193 (talk) 14:58, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Interestingly it is the [Fourier Transform] of the head gap width!
 * BBC job interview question, 1982!
 * --195.137.93.171 (talk) 10:31, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Head gap width and the wavelength of the recorded signal, which is dependant on frequency of the signal and speed of the tape. I have seen 3.75 ips tape that had no frequencies above 4 kHz and some that have had signals over 10kHz (though azimuth is highly unstable at this speed on most machines), it very much depends on the quality of the equipment in the chain. Also note frequency response is inherently non-linear on audio tape, hence the use of pre-emphasis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.210.170 (talk) 11:49, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

New image(s)
I thought these might be useful for the article, but it's getting a little image crowded. (One image now, but I'll upload a few more soon). --Gmaxwell 04:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Page title
Should this page be renamed Reel-to-reel tape recording because there are other applications than audio?--Tugjob 18:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Studer/Revox
What about theses Swiss marvels of A77 and then B77?

Takima 00:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Article needed
Article on Wollensak needed. (Is that the right spelling?) Badagnani (talk) 21:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Spelling now correct. Spyglasses 06:01, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

As a musical instrument
Two famous applications of reel-2-reel as an musical instrument can't be missing here:

1. In a wider meaning of the word instrument, the "Frippertronics" of Robert Fripp. He was using 2 (A77) R2R machines to create long tape loops and stack sounds. Pretty similar to modern digital looper pedals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSStufx6jYU&feature=related

2. The "Projectron" of Alan Parson. It was basicaly a standard 24-track tape recorder combined with a keyboard to unmute and mute its output tracks, resembling a sophisticated version of a mellotron/novatron. Sounds like choirs could be "sampled" in a very high quality and played in realtime, making the tape recorder a real musical instrument. Famous too, it can be heard on every Alan Parsons album of the late 70s/early 80s. 213.39.162.171 (talk) 23:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Brush Soundmirror
For American History don't forget Brush Soundmirror, 1946 BK-401, recording medium is paper tape called Magnetic Ribbon.

http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/recording/begun6.html

http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=2092

Don't refer to http://www.useddlt.com/magnetbandtechn0.html it't not a neutral scientific source.

rroth, juli 31 2009 91.50.202.225 (talk) 09:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Tape Editing Re-direct
I was diverted here while searching tape-editing and this doesn't appear to have any appropriate info.

I was expecting something on splicing vs drop-editing but found nothing...and i would equally love to know if there were any other ways of editing tape. Also I'm not sure tape editing should re-direct here as tape editing can also be done with cassettes119.15.65.1 (talk) 04:02, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

 * A previous WP:RFD ended in a vote for retargeting Tape editing to this article. You can create a new Tape editing article yourself or request to have the redirect deleted or retargeted to another page. - Meewam (talk) 16:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

First line's citation tag?
Does the first line really need a citation? It's pretty obvious that the reels aren't encased in a plastic housing. 108.94.104.67 (talk) 03:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Some Wikipedia editors really like to overdo it with citation tags. If a statement is blindingly obvious or there is no real reason to question it they still demand proof that someone (other than a Wikipedia editor) somewhere said it. Otherwise it can't be true ! 94.0.215.193 (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Tape transport mechanics
This whole article only addresses (without saying so) reel to reel tapes recorded on 'capstan drive' machines - ie where the tape is pulled past the head by being pinched between a drive and a rubber idler wheel, thus giving a constant speed. There is another (much cheaper) type of reel to reel tape recorder, the 'rim drive'. Here the tape is pulled past the head by powering the take up spool (by a drive bearing on its edge or rim). Because the diameter of the take-up increases as the tape is wound on to it, the tape speed past the head varies, getting continuously quicker. Thus the two types of recorder produce mutually incompatible recordings on apparently the same tape. A capstan tape cannot be played at a constant speed on a rim drive machine and vice-versa. I have for instance a 1963 'Star-lite' taking 3" diameter reels of 1/4" tape. The tape speed varies from 4.8 IPS at the beginning to 7.4 IPS at the end, giving a playing time of 4 minutes per track. 217.39.3.14 (talk) 22:57, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Interesting stuff but would need citations to go into the article. Mind you the overwhelming majority of machines did use capstan drive (or some variation thereof) pretty much because anything else was pretty dreadful ! 94.0.215.193 (talk) 15:05, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Magnitizdat
A one suffered for a long time under soviet occupation: why do the reel lists not contain soviet tape recorders? These were the only instruments for recording, listening to and spreading of free world music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.153.3.252 (talk) 20:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * List ? There's a whole article about it :-) 94.0.215.193 (talk) 14:48, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Accidental discovery of AC bias -True ?
''In 1939 one machine was found to make consistently better recordings that other ostensibly identical models, and when it was taken apart a minor flaw was noticed. This was introducing an AC signal to the tape, and this was quickly adapted to new models using a high-frequency AC bias'' This "accidental discovery" story has no citation and doesn't match accounts in "AC bias" article (dates also don't match) and doesn't explain how the machine generated an ultrasonic AC signal without the necessary circuitry. I'm tagging it as dubious until someone can come up with a citation (or more likely correction) 94.0.215.193 (talk) 15:09, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

The story of how AC Bias was discovered by accident is fairly widespread and probably true. However the account given here leaves a lot to be desired. I do remember reading that the 'minor malfunction' that resulted in this discovery was that the vacuum tube amplifier feeding the recording head was found to be oscillating at a high frequency. It might only take the failure of one 'bypass' capacitor to allow the amplifier to oscillate and this again is entirely plausible. Therefore this account is lacking in detail and references but the broad outline of the discovery is probably true. Spyglasses 05:48, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

The story goes the record preamplifier was self oscillating at a frequency above the audio range, it is fairly common for an amplifier fault to cause self oscillation. Of course this is exactly how AC bias works now, with the addition of a bias trap in the playback amplifier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.210.170 (talk) 10:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Small point
The phrase "less complicated cassette tapes" is misleading. Yes, cassettes were less complicated to use, but that's only because they incorporated extremely complex internal mechanisms so users didn't have to bother with issues like lacing up the tape!Lee M (talk) 00:08, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Top link leads to a non-working page
In the External Links section, the link called: Website dedicated to the indexing of all known pre-recorded Reel to Reels during their last decade of production up to 1984 including scans of all items

links to http://hoknescomics.com/reellast.htm

Which is a godaddy holding page for the website.

I'm not sure of the etiquette or procedure for deleting that info from the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.52.176.50 (talk) 14:36, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Equalization – NAB and CCIR/IEC
During a cursory search, I could not find any articles specifically mentioning the equalization standards used in reel-to-reel recording. In my opinion the NAB and CCIR/IEC standards are definitely worth mentioning in this article and perhaps even deserving of their own article. Gutten på Hemsen (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Reel-to-reel audio tape recording


text:
Roberto Clemente Jr.

Roberto Clemente Zabala (born August 17, 1965), better known as Roberto Clemente Jr., is a baseball broadcaster and former professional baseball player from San Juan, Puerto Rico. He was born in the Santurce barrio. His father and namesake Roberto Clemente was the first Latin American player to compile 3,000 hits in Major League Baseball history. His mother Vera Clemente hosted a telethon in Puerto Rico in order to raise funds for the Ciudad Roberto Clemente, a sporting complex located in Carolina, Puerto Rico.

Biography
Despite playing for the Pittsburgh Pirates and being established in Pittsburgh for many years, Roberto Clemente insisted his wife Vera return to Puerto Rico so Roberto Jr. could be born there a day before his own birthday. The first seven years of Clemente's life were spent between Puerto Rico and Pittsburgh. His father died in a plane crash on December 31, 1972, while taking relief supplies to Nicaragua earthquake victims. After his father’s death, Roberto Jr. became the spokesperson for the family when his mother Vera was not available.

In 1978, he was chosen to carry the torch and light the Pavilion for the Pan Am Games. Clemente excelled in sports at the junior high and high school levels. He was captain of the volleyball team and participated in track and field and basketball, and was offered a spot on a professional basketball team. After high school, Clemente moved to Bradenton, Florida to attend a community college.

In 1984, he was spotted by a Philadelphia Phillies scout, and signed by the organization, joining their division-A team in 1985, the same year in which he made his debut in the Puerto Rican winter baseball league, with the Arecibo Wolves. A series of injuries prevented Clemente from making it to the major leagues. After playing two seasons with the Phillies, he joined the San Diego Padres after Sandy Alomar Sr. arranged it with the organization in 1986, but he had a knee injury during spring training and was not able to make the team. Clemente insisted on making the major leagues and after three knee surgeries in three years he traveled to Venezuela in 1989, where he homered on the first pitch thrown to him in over three years. He became a well-known player in Venezuela, but after signing a minor league contract with the Baltimore Orioles before the 1989 season, he suffered a career-ending injury to his back and had to retire from professional baseball.

Clemente returned to Puerto Rico and helped his mother make his father's dream a reality, the Roberto Clemente Sports City. In 1992, he brought Major League Baseball's RBI (Reviving Baseball in Inner Cities) program to Puerto Rico, which has won 10 RBI World Series championships. Clemente moved to Pittsburgh to establish the Roberto Clemente Foundation in 1993 to help bring to the RBI program where there was none. When Kevin McClatchy became the Pirates' new owner in 1995, the major league team embraced and promoted RBI Baseball.

In 1997 Clemente accepted an offer to broadcast New York Yankees games on television and radio, becoming a Spanish-language announcer for the Yankees on MSG Network, Telemundo, and WADO. WADO inaugurated a weekly talk show with Clemente Jr. as show host in 1997. By 1998, Roberto was splitting the duties as Spanish play by play announcer for the New York Yankees and earned three World Series rings with the 1998, 1999 and 2000 teams. Clemente added more broadcast duties by joining ESPN Deportes as a sideline reporter for the baseball post season and was part of the ESPN Family for another seven years as a color commentator. In 2001, Clemente hosted the Spanish version of MLB's network television show, Baseball Max, and by 2002, was conducting game interviews for ESPN Deportes Radio. Also in 2002, he was named honorary chairman for the “'Baseball Assistance Team's (BAT) annual fundraising dinner''. He is known for his work with the American Diabetes Association.

In 2004, Clemente decided to complete his father's fatal trip with supplies. He joined forces with Project Club Clemente President Eliezer Rodriguez, but the tsunami in southeast Asia forced them to reschedule after Clemente decided to send the aid to where it was needed. In 2005, Clemente hosted a Saturday afternoon show on WFAN in New York City called The Latin Beat. This was his first English-language radio job, as he also became the first Latino host in the history of the station.

In 2013, Roberto became a member of the board for The National Hispanic Health Foundation because of his work in the forefront of new brain technology. He is currently the Ambassador for RC21x. Clemente was selected to serve as commissioner of President George W. Bush's South Lawn tee-ball League. He co-hosted the tee-ball tournament at Gracie Mansion with NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg from 2006 to 2013.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Roberto Clemente Jr.


text:
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 24

Consistency
I made a similar comment above in discussing straight versus curly quotes, but I thought I'd make it more generally, as well.

Why are we not interested in consistency in the MoS? Its a huge cop-out that when we disagree on something (curly vs. straight quotes, serial commas, US vs. U.S., etc.) that the answer is "either one is OK".

A lot of people complain "I don't like serial commas" or "straight quotes are ugly". To me, the ugliest thing is inconsistency. I don't care whether its US or U.S., I just want to pick one so all the articles look consistent. I don't care if we use serial commas or not, I just want to pick one so all the articles look consistent.

If we aren't actually providing specific guidance, why have an MoS at all. (OK, I'm exagerating, there's plenty of stuff that has actually been hashed out here, but you get the idea.)

I know there are some issues people take very personally that we can never approach this way, like British vs. American spelling or AD vs. BCE. (Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I'd be happier with all British spelling than with some British and some American spelling ... and I'm American.)  However, for something like straight vs. curly quotes or US vs U.S. ... just pick one, let's flip a coin, who cares! Chuck 23:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

 * A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. —Ralph Waldo Emerson
 * While I understand and symphatize with the urge to homogenize, to do so would just cause a deluge of unnecessary acrimony and animosity to no useful end. One of Wikipedia's greatest strengths is its diversity. Nohat 03:33, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, its diversity of information, ranging from Pokémon to Esters to Invented sports to Animals. One of Wikipedia's greatest weaknesses is its not being one project with one style of writing, but about twenty ways which make it look like a collection of pages rather than an encyclopedia (hyperbole, I give, but you get the idea).  Having a broad range of information makes it look great.  Having a broad range of prose style makes it look unreliable.  And this is an encyclopedia to be both great and reliable, not just one.
 * My agreement with Chuck goes all the way to the flipping a coin. Minor things - that really, honestly, don't matter just so long as it's all the same.  Having US here and U.S. there and “text” and "text" here looks horrible and quickly depreciates the respect of this encyclopedia (again, if already resolved, then ignore that fact and you get the idea).  Just pick one, I don't care if I disagree with it, I can live as long as style is upheld.
 * If we really want a nice diverse style, then it may well be worth deleting this project page altogether. Having on every line, "you can do whatever you want, and don't force anything on anyone" is essentially doing the same thing.
 * Please please, please, people, see style for what it is, and don't make these long, drawn-out, ten-page-long debates about whether a dot should be there or not (hyperbole). If it's split even, take the status quo.  If the majority's clearly against you, then live with it and edit by the majority.  This is a manual of style, not a manual of freedom.  (This is for minor things, not fundamental structural or major things.)
 * I also posted such a comment above, just under Chuck's, and then I saw this, sorry about the double post (the posts aren't replicates but convey the same thing). Neonumbers 12:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * How is it acrimonious to say "for consistency's sake, we have decided not to use curly quotes in the Wikipedia"? Don't the edit wars we get today (not to mention the discussions on this page) cause acrimony?  Does anyone really care that much about any one of these issues?  (If so, they really need to get some perspective.)  Also, I agree with Neonumbers:  the diversity of information makes Wikipedia great, the diversity of styles makes it ugly.
 * Oh, and regarding your quote... it would make just as much sense if you replace "consistency" with "inconsistency". They key part is the "foolish" part. If you think consistency in general is foolish, you should be against having a MoS at all.  You don't think its foolish and "little" to be arguing over the spelling of "aluminum" or whether or not to use curly quotes?

Chuck 16:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This idea is never going to get any kind of consensus support. Debates surrounding what the MoS should say are never going to be ended by flipping coins because those kinds of solutions are not representative of consensus. I guess you are having trouble believing it, but yes, plenty of people really do care that much about these issues. I see no value in imposing the will of the apathetic. The MoS process will continue to be characterized by long, drawn-out debates on the merits of various positions with the MoS representing the consensus of those debates.

 * No, consistency in general is not foolish, but a consistency based on no more than coin toss is foolish. And so is the notion that the MoS would be improved by settling debates with a coin toss. If you don't want to argue over such "trivial" matters like the spelling of "aluminum" or whether or not to use curly quotes, then don't. But how dare you have the hubris to tell us what we should and should not argue about! Nohat 17:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * First of all, my position is not that we necessarily settle things with a coin toss. You clearly didn't read what I wrote if you think that.  My position is that we not end up with guidance that is "do it either way".  I also never tried to tell you what you should or shouldn't argue about.  I merely threw a rude, obnoxious quote back in your face.
 * Regarding flipping a coin: If there is not consensus either way between two choices, it implies that the cost/benefit of either choice is similar -- at that point, flipping a coin is a perfectly valid way to choose between two apparently equally valid choices. If one choice was really better it would receive consensus, regardless of any individual's belief to the contrary.
 * So argue away, but remember that at the end of the day, the whole point of the MoS is to provide guidance of how to edit wikipedia consistently, not to validate everyone's spelling and typesetting opinions. Chuck 00:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * True, coin tosses won't work for everything, but that's not the point. The debates over what's "better" and what's "worse" have destroyed the manual of style.  Every detail merits a short debate, sure.  But if it's truly clear there is no true consensus and the points even up — or, let's face it, we make arguments based on personal choice (even I do) — then instead of having a long, drawn out debate that ends in a compromise as good as nothing, a coin toss in its theory would do fine.  (In practice, I would put it to the side with majority, however slight.)  (And remember, there is no such issue about issues where there actually is a better way and therefore has consensus.)
 * This isn't about consistency based on coin tosses. This is how we make this the one project it was meant to be.  One project, one encyclopædia, one style.  We are, or should be, a unified team, not a divided community.
 * I'm not saying debate should be replaced with coin tosses. I'm just saying that, amidst the debate and reverts and the desire for absolute uncontested consensus, we're forgetting what this manual's all about.  Guidance, consistency, style.  The constant arguments seem to have overpowered the need to work together.  To make the manual of style work like a style guide, some of us — even almost half of us — have to give way sometimes out of our will to make the style guide do its job.  Otherwise, the manual will ultimately cripple and the encyclopædia with it.  Neonumbers 12:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That's a very nice argument, but I'm trying to see where you are going with it. After all, at present, a supermajority of native English speakers are Americans (see the graph in the English language article), and Canadians tend to side with Americans on the spelling of most words (with exceptions like center/centre).  As an American, I personally don't mind going with the "majority rule" rule, since in practice, such a rule would usually favor American English usage (curb/kerb, median/central reservation, periods always inside quotes, and so on).  But I am also concerned that such a rule would severely alienate users of British English and its variants, resulting in a permanent fork of the encyclopedia.  --Coolcaesar 13:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

 * A consistent answer, applied uniformly across the Wiki, even if it's the "wrong" answer (for some people), would be better than the current system where we tear each other apart with debate and still flip and flop the style recomendation from one polarity to the other every few months. I heartily agree that a coin toss would be better than what we have now.

 * Atlant 13:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

The underlying assumption of this little debate is that every stylistic choice is equally valid. Sometimes this is the case: there is really nothing apart from tradition that prefers color to colour (or colo3r, to drive the point home with an absurd example). Such issues might, I agree, just as well be settled with a coin toss. I care not and don't contribute to WP:MOS discussions about such issues.

But it's not always that easy. Take the straights vs curlies debate. The arguments are not symmetric. One side argues that straights are to be preferred because the are easier to enter or edit. The other side argues that curlies are to be preferred because it preserves data integrity (curlies can be automatically converted to straights but not vice versa) and the result is closer to the ideals of traditional typography. These aren't simply two arbitrary and symmetrical conclusions; they rely on which weights are attached to opposing ideals (data integrity vs. ease of editing, for example) that aren't necessarily based on aesthetics or regional traditions. A similar discussion is the use of diacritics. For me, the difference between Paul Erdős and Paul Erdos (and even Paul Erdös) is significant. It's a question of more information versus less information. The correct diacritic can be dumbed down to ö or o, but the other direction doesn't work. So on this topic I have an opinion that is not based on regional or traditional whims. It's a question about information quality (or “data integrity” if you want).

In summary, the difference between Paul Erdős and Paul Erdos is qualitatively different than the difference between colour and color. For the latter, a coin toss would be fine. But there are many matters where one stylistic choice is better (contains more information, has a higher standard of typography, correct grammar, etc.) but more hassle (harder to enter or edit or get right). These aren't symmetric, and worth debating. I will always decide on the “better but harder” side. Consistently. Arbor 14:19, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This is a classic example. If one choice is really "better", it will receive consensus. (Isn't this the Wikipedia's definition of better in this context?) If it does not receive consensus, then regardless of your (clearly strongly held) personal opinion, it must not really be better.  The fact that your position is not "based on regional or tradition whims" is irrelevant.  Instead it is based on your "data integrity whim", which you claim is a priori more important that someone else's "ease of editing whim". In fact, a counterargument that you failed to mention is that neither Paul Erdős nor Paul Erdös are actually english spellings. I don't know anything about the specific issue, since we generally don't use diacritics in english, but there is potentially an equally valid point to be made that in an english language publication, you use neither (except maybe as redirects and to reference the original spelling within the article). So maybe my "let's stick to english whim" should be the one that wins out.
 * What's really interesting about your point, though, is that you are basically saying "I don't care if we flip a coin when I have no opinion on the outcome, but I do care on issues where I do have an opinion on the outcome". Is this really a constructive position?  Chuck 18:19, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry it came out that way. I didn't try to disparage either straight quotes or diacritic-less spellings in this contribution. The argument from ease of editing is a very strong one, and it is not clear that it trumps the argument from data integrity, (It does for me, but as I said, this is worth discussing — I didn't say that the outcome is clear.) On the other hand, the debate between color and colour are two qualitatively equivalent spellings. Hence there are no useful “higher principles” to appeal to, and discussion is (in my mind) a waste of time. A coin toss would be fine. I, personally, always write colour (and find the alternative mind-numbingly ugly); it's something I care about very much. But if there was a WP policy for American spelling, I would cheerfully follow that, in spite of my whims. But I can see no rational argument for preferring colour over color—the two choices are symmetric. Arbor 20:03, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, so now I'm confused what your point is. The existence or lack of existence of "higher principals" bears no relation to the fact that eventually a decision should be made. Are you arguing that you would rather no decision was made than a decision was made that you disagree with.  I still find it hard to believe that it is controversial that the MoS actually provide guidance, instead of saying "do it either way".  If people are fine with it being done the "other" way some of the time, then why not all the time? Chuck 22:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I was agreeing, to a large extent, with you. Yes, in a lot of cases I would prefer the MOS to be more restrictive. For example, a decision to use (say) American spelling would be fine with me—I can just switch on another spell checker, or some friendly soul can correct my Britishicism. These things I find symmetrical, and I am right behind you; consistency is good. However, there are other debates on this talk page that I find very relevant, and where your criticism is (IMO) too blunt. I took the straight/curly debate, or the diacritics debate as examples of the point I wanted to make. These debates aren't symmetrical (I feel). The two positions are based on how important we think different, relevant but conflicting, ideals are. For example, ease of editing (a fundemental Wiki cornerstone) versus data integrity or professionalism (which I happen to think are more important). This is in principle a relevant topic for debate (without there being an obviously superior position, even though I know what I think), whereas I agree with you that, e.g., colour vs color might as well be decided with a coin toss. Arbor 07:59, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

 * ...Speaking of pointless debates, this is certainly one.
 * Coin-flipping (or any random decision-making method) is never going to be a consensus-supported method of deciding MoS guidance
 * No one is going to stop arguing about supposedly "unimportant" matters simply because it has been suggested that debating them is not a worthwhile activity
 * There is not going to be a universal spelling of color (or any other word whose spelling varies from country to country) chosen for use throughout the Wikipedia project.
 * Nohat 08:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I have NEVER ONCE stated we shouldn't debate things. What I have suggested is that at some point a decision should be made one way or the other.  Or when a decision has previously been made, that we not break down and revert to a "do it either way" position.
 * I think it interesting, by the way, that you know what will and won't be supported by consensus. You are the master of group psychology and I bow to your esteemed greatness.  Chuck 18:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll start by commenting on the color vs. colour thing: my personal opinion is that the current policy on follow-the-first-editor spelling is good because American vs. British English standardisation is truly unrealisitic; and having said that, if there was a guideline mandating American English (I'm a NZer, we follow Britain), I would happily defer to that guideline despite my view against it. I guess that's just my thing and isn't really important.
 * Anyway, I now start to see, thanks to Arbor, why there is a debate at all about quotation marks, and yes, I guess that now I can symphathise a little bit. The arguments are asymmetrical — but they are still equal and they from a perfectly neutral stance cancel out one for one.  (Obviously this ignores weighting of priorities, I accept that.  I actually personally have a very strong view for straight quotes.)
 * Now, that thing aside, there is indeed nothing that merits no debate whatsoever, true; what I find annoying is the long debates that are just saying the same thing over and over and lasting several months and ending with "do either". For the manual of style to work, some of us will have to give way sometimes.
 * At this point originally began an explanation of what I'm asking for. Then I realised that I'm just repeating what said earlier.  So here's my point:  Where there is no consensus, we must remember that this is a manual of style, and nothing else, and therefore we have to turn one way or the other.  My detailed explanation is in my last post.
 * Again, for the record, I'm not saying that debating is pointless and shouldn't be happening. But surely there be consensus that a style guide is to provide guidance with style? Neonumbers 07:10, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Some of us are concerned about m:instruction creep and try to limit the number of rules and regulations to a minimum. We understand that too many rules makes Wikipedia a difficult and unfriendly quagmire in which to work. In most cases, stylistic questions are fine left to the writer's discretion. The fact that some people find consistency aesthetically appealing does not make for a very persuasive argument. We need only provide guidance when there is a clear advantage to consistency. The onus is on the legislator to demonstrate not only that his proposed legislation will solve a problem, but also that a significant problem exists in the first place. Nohat 08:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) What's the matter with "instruction creep". Show me how it becomes "difficult" or "unfriendly". No one is required to follow the MoS.  No one is graded on how well their edits follow the MoS.  Someone may come along later and, for example, change all of your straight quotes to curly.  But so what ... if you take it personally if someone edits your work, you really shouldn't be contributing to wikipedia.
 * 2) There is no such thing as the "legislator" in the wikipedia. If you think there is, you don't belong here.  The wikipedia works on consensus.  If people think there is a need for guidance, then there is such a need.  If people don't think so, then there isn't a need.  Chuck 16:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The problem with instruction creep is self-evident. It's overwhelming and off-putting to conscientious users who want to be aware of all the rules and guidelines to make constructive contributions if there is an endless quantity of them, especially when they serve no useful purpose, such as arbitrary and capricious entries in the MoS. If there is no clear consensus that something should be done one way or another, then there should be no guideline at all, not a randomly selected guideline.

A legislator on wikipedia here is you, the person who wants to add additional rules. If you think that MoS guidance should be selected by a coin toss when no consensus emerges, then please, by all means, make a proposal. Set up a poll. See how much consensus you'll get. Nohat 20:18, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

 * One of, and perhaps the main thing that was emphasised to me clearly when I first came here was not to worry about doing things wrong because someone would come along and change it. And if, by chance, someone else does something wrong, then just change it — no need to take it up with them.
 * So, again, we forget what this manual is about. Guidance.  There's nothing wrong with making an out-of-line edit if it contributes information.  It's a wiki world.  Someone else will change it to suit.
 * The manual does not exist to impose strict rules on editors. It is a reference guide so that editors who do like to know which way is preferred can look things up.  Editors do not need to be familiar with this at all — someone else will come along and take care of it for them.  Those who make out-of-style edits will not be reprimanded.
 * On that note, perhaps that should be made clear: that conformance is the goal of the team and there is no requirement for editors to follow it flawlessly. (And I would say that only essential things go on this page to make life easier for the newcomer; minor, specialised preferences can go on the supplementary manuals.)
 * There is a fundamental difference between this and legislation: legislation is about the individual, whereas this is about the project. We can all contribute, information helps and so does style, and there is no need to have both in the same person — I have no shame in saying I have no information to offer here.  When will people realise what this is?  One project, driven by the will of editors to make this the best encyclopædia (not collection of encyclopædias) around.

 * Despite all this bluster about how I don't understand how Wikipedia works (which is nonsense), I have still yet to a see a reasonable argument for why it is so important that Wikipedia have official preferences on things that we can't come to consensus on. Despite your sunny-day scenario for the MoS, in the Real World, the MoS is used by domineering editors to push undesirable and unnecessary changes into articles to make it conform to the MoS without any demonstrable effect other than aggravating users. The shorter and less full the MoS is of useless rules, the more useful it is, and the more likely it is that users will stick around and help contribute by making articles more accessible, informative and accurate, instead of being put off by an interminable and needlessly abundant MoS full of arbitrary and capricious rules that imperious and officious busybodies use to make needless and profligate changes that exasperate and annoy potential long-term contributors. I see no legitimate useful purpose and a mountain of drawbacks to having official stylistic preferences for things that don't actually affect our measurable value as an encyclopedia; that is, our ability to accurately inform. There is no need to fill the MoS with useless official preferences on picayune stylistic matters. Nohat 05:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Nice diatribe. This discussion might be more productive if you would ratchet up the civility a little bit. Am I an "imperious and officious busybod[y]" because I sometimes go through an article and fix the punctuation to match the Manual of Style section? If so, please explain.
 * Your personal pet peeve "Oh no, someone changed my curly quotes to smart quotes", is no more valid that my personal pet peeve "How come this article has curly quotes and the last one I read has smart quotes". Your fear that editors will be put off by people editing their work (god forbid) is not particularly compelling in a medium where it says "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here" at the bottom of every edit page.
 * So let's say I'm editing a long article and I want to add a few sentences, and one of the sentences includes a list, and I'm trying to decide if I should use a serial comma. Tell me how I'm supposed to decide. I have to read the whole article and tabulate the number of times serial comma is used, the number not used, and then go with the majority? Or do I have to go through the history and figure out the first time someone made a list and see whether they used the serial comma or not. Or do I just do it whichever way I feel like and just risk leaving the article looking like crap. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if the MoS just said "Use serial commas" or "Don't use serial commas". Which one of those scenarios creates the simplest, least controversial editing process?
 * BTW, I have yet to see a situation where there was a big todo over someone coming through an article and implementing style changes per the MoS. Can you give me an example? Chuck 16:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I haven't checked your editing history so I don't know what kinds of edits you have made, but I know for a fact that some mean-spirited editors will wikistalk people who they have gotten into disagreements with and follow them around the wiki, making changes of the sort I described to agitate and annoy. It's happened to me, and I've seen it happen to others, and it's really annoying. The less ammunition we give those people (with unnecessary and arbitrary MoS guidelines), the harder it is for them excuse their incivility. If this doesn't apply to you, then I'm sorry you thought I was accusing you of being imperious and officious.
 * My fear is not that editors will be put off by people editing their work; it is that editors will be put off by people making unnecessary and capricious changes bolstered by a MoS full of arbitrary rules that have no logical justification other than "we just decided to do it this way".
 * Note that this is not my only reason for opposing unnecessary MoS entries. I have outlined my other reasons for opposing them above: that if they're not needed, they shouldn't be had, that diversity is an asset, and so forth.
 * In your example scenario, the answer is that the editor should just do it whatever way he feels like as long as the result is reasonable. If the result is not reasonable, then someone else will change it so it is. A MoS entry that says "use serial commas" or "don't use serial commas" would not be some kind of editing panacea: it just moves the debate from a the trenches where the actual efficacy of particular editing choices has palpable impact to here, where the debate turns into interminable and wasteful meta-discussions (and meta-meta-discussions) on the theoretical benefits of particular editing styles with very little concern for or measurable impact upon the actual quality of articles.
 * So, rather then continue this rather pointless meta-meta-discussion, why don't you put your money where your mouth is, so to speak, and make a proposal? Nohat 20:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Assholes will always find ways to annoy people. I'm really not trying to be rude or dense, or frankly even say that I don't believe that happens, I just find it hard to believe that someone following you around changing, for instance, all of the times you write "U.S." to "US" would be annoying, as long as they were doing it based on some sort of consensus arrived at here. I certainly don't see how its a priori uncivil. Are they making annoying comments in the summary field? Are there MoS items that lend themselves to this? I often change the punctuation in quotation marks to be consistent with the MoS. If I am annoying people, however inadvertently, I would think that's weird.
 * Frankly I would think it was awesome if someone followed me around fixing all the little nits to make my edits consistent, assuming they weren't leaving obnoxious comments in the summary line, of course.
 * Why isn't it more useful to just have a discussion once. You seem to be saying "Instead of having a discussion once and getting it out of the way, we rehash the discussion again and again and again". That seems counterproductive. Isn't the simplest way to focus on actually adding content and to decide simple issues (especially Arbor's "symmetric" issues) once, in a forum like this.
 * I find it hard to figure out what your last paragraph means. No one is forcing you to continue this "pointless discussion", although I did notice that you managed to sneak in a snide comment at the end. Have I not made a proposal? Unfortunately, my proposal does not result in some type of action taken. Instead I was trying to invite discussion on the issue and try to encourage one possible approach to decisionmaking.
 * But you want me to make a proposal so let me start by setting the stage. First, I certainly believe we should discuss things thoroughly before making a decision. Second, rather than 2 choices, there are usually 4 (or more) choices in any of these debates. Assuming x and y are contradictory guidance: (i) add x to the MoS, (ii) add y to the Mos, (iii) add both to the MoS, allowing editors to choose between them, and (iv) add nothing to the MoS. My original proposal was that we should avoid using choices (iii) and (iv) as cop outs.  Yes, sometimes there is consensus that we really don't need guidance on that issue.  But many times, there seems to be consensus that we should say something, but we can't agree on what, so we end up with (iii) or (iv). So my proposal summarized is:
 * When there is consensus that MoS should address an issue, we should try to avoid ignoring the issue in the MoS or allowing multiple styles in the MoS, even if it may mean one side giving in and "taking one for the team" or both sides agreeing to choose randomly. When there is not consensus that MoS should address an issue, it should be left out entirely.
 * I know its more of a suggested philosophy than a proposal that would result in a specific action, but you asked me to propose something. Maybe that's not as bad as you thought it would be? Chuck 21:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


text:
Family (band)

Family were an English rock band, active from late 1966 to October 1973, and again since 2013 for a series of live shows. Their style has been characterised as progressive rock, as their sound often explored other genres, incorporating elements of styles such as folk, psychedelia, acid rock, jazz fusion, and rock and roll. The band achieved recognition in the United Kingdom through their albums, club and concert tours, and appearances at festivals.

Family's rotating membership during their relatively short existence led to a diversity of sound on their various albums, with lead vocalist Roger Chapman the only member who stayed in the band throughout its existence. The group have been described as an "odd band loved by a small but rabid group of fans".

Early years (1966–1969)
Family formed in late 1966 in Leicester, England, from the remaining members of a group that was previously known as The Farinas and later briefly The Roaring Sixties, whose sound was grounded in rhythm and blues though they did not record under that name. The Farinas originally consisted of John "Charlie" Whitney, Tim Kirchin (born around 1944, Birstall, Leicestershire died circa 2000), Harry Ovenall (born Richard Harry Ovenall, 12 September 1943, Peterborough, Cambridgeshire), and Jim King, forming at Leicester Art College in 1962. Ric Grech replaced Kirchin on bass in 1965 and Roger Chapman joined the following year on vocals. The American record producer Kim Fowley suggested they call themselves "The Family" as they regularly wore double-breasted suits in performances, giving themselves a mafia style appearance, a look they soon abandoned in favour of a more casual dress code.

The group played the music club The Marquee regularly and other London clubs including The 100 Club and Sybilla's in Swallow Street. Through their friend, Mim Scala, they arranged Jimmy Miller to produce their first single and met manager John Gilbert. Because of their association with Miller, Steve Winwood helped with the recording. Shortly afterwards, Ovenall became disillusioned with the group's move away from soul music towards psychedelia and was concerned about the management. He subsequently decided to leave the band. Family's debut single "Scene Through The Eye of a Lens/Gypsy Woman" was released by Liberty Records in October 1967 but was not a success. Ovenall was replaced by Rob Townsend.

The band signed with the Reprise Records label (the first UK band signed directly to UK and US Reprise) and their debut album Music in a Doll's House, was recorded during early 1968. Miller was originally slated to produce it, but he was tied up with production of The Rolling Stones' album Beggars Banquet and he is credited as co-producer on only two tracks, "The Breeze" and "Peace of Mind". The bulk of the album was produced by former Traffic member Dave Mason, and recorded at London's Olympic Studios with engineers Eddie Kramer and George Chkiantz. 18 year old Mike Batt arranged string and brass overdubs, notably on "The Chase", "Mellowing Grey" and "Old Songs, New Songs" but was uncredited. "Old Songs, New Songs" also included an uncredited tenor sax solo from Tubby Hayes. Mason also contributed one composition to the album, "Never Like This", the only song recorded by Family not written by a band member, and the group also backed Mason on “Little Woman”, the B side of his February 1968 single "Just For You". Alongside Pink Floyd, Soft Machine, The Move, and The Nice, Family quickly became one of the premier attractions on the burgeoning UK psychedelic/progressive "underground" scene. Their lifestyle and exploits during this period provided some of the inspiration for the 1969 novel Groupie by Jenny Fabian (who lived in the group's Chelsea house for some time) and to Johnny Byrne. Family featured in the book under the pseudonym, 'Relation'.

Music in a Doll's House was released in July 1968 and charted at number 35 in the UK to critical acclaim, thanks to strong support from BBC Radio 1's John Peel. Now widely acknowledged as a classic of British psychedelic rock, it showcased many of the stylistic and production features that are archetypal of the genre. The album's highly original sound was characterised by Chapman's vocals, rooted in the blues and R&B, combined with several unusual instruments for a rock band, courtesy of the presence of multi-instrumentalists Grech and King, including saxophones, violin, cello, and harmonica.

Family's 1969 follow-up, Family Entertainment, toned down the psychedelic experimentation of their previous offering to some extent, reaching number six in the UK Albums Chart, and featured the single "The Weaver's Answer", although the group reportedly had no control over the mixing and choice of tracks, or the running order of the songs.

With the UK success of Family's first two albums, the band undertook a tour of the United States in April 1969, but it was beset by problems. Halfway through the tour, Grech unexpectedly left the band to join the new supergroup Blind Faith; on the recommendation of tour manager Peter Grant, Grech was replaced by John Weider, previously of Eric Burdon and The Animals. A further setback occurred during their first concert at Bill Graham's Fillmore East, whilst sharing the bill with Ten Years After and The Nice – during his stage routine, Chapman lost control of his microphone stand, which flew in Graham's direction, an act Graham took to be deliberate; Chapman performed the following shows with his hands by his sides, and by the end of the tour, he had lost his voice; Family's reputation in the US never recovered and they ultimately never achieved great recognition there. Returning to the UK, the band performed at The Rolling Stones' Hyde Park gig and the Isle of Wight Festival that summer. In late 1969, Jim King was asked to leave Family due to "erratic behaviour" and was replaced by multi-instrumentalist John "Poli" Palmer.

Later years (1970–1973)
In 1970, Family played a few more gigs in the United States, appearing in San Francisco and Boston. In early 1970, they released their third studio album, A Song for Me; produced by the band, it became the highest-charting album the band had released, reaching No. 4 on the UK Albums Chart. The album itself was a blend of hard rock and folk rock. Family's new line-up played at major rock festivals that summer, including the Kralingen Music Festival in the Netherlands and the Isle of Wight Festival for the second year in a row. The band appeared in the documentary film Message to Love about the latter festival.

Family's follow-up album Anyway, released in late 1970, had its first half consist of new material recorded live at Fairfield Halls in Croydon, England, with the second half a set of new songs recorded in the studio, and reached number seven on the UK chart. In March 1971 the compilation album, Old Songs New Songs, (which contained remixes and rare tracks) was released, but in June Weider left Family to join Stud. He was replaced by former Mogul Thrash bassist John Wetton, who had just declined an invitation from Robert Fripp to join King Crimson. The band performed at the Glastonbury Free Festival 1971, filmed by Nicolas Roeg for the 1972 documentary Glastonbury Fayre.

As with Grech in Family's original line-up, Wetton also shared vocal duties with Chapman, and this line-up soon released Family's highest-charting single "In My Own Time/Seasons" which reached number four, and the album Fearless in October 1971, which charted in both the UK and the US. In 1972, another album, Bandstand was released, which leaned more towards hard rock than art rock, featuring the singles "Burlesque" in late 1972, and "My Friend the Sun", which was released in early 1973.

In mid-1972, John Wetton left Family to join a new line-up of King Crimson and was replaced by bassist Jim Cregan, and at the end of that year, John "Poli" Palmer also left the band and was replaced by keyboardist Tony Ashton, previously of Ashton, Gardner and Dyke. After Wetton's departure (but before Palmer's exit), Family toured the United States and Canada as the support act for Elton John, but their performances were often greeted with silence and Poli Palmer later recalled that "the only clapping in this huge stadium would be the guys doing the PA".

In 1973, Family released the largely ignored It's Only a Movie (and on their own label, Raft, distributed by Warner/Reprise), which would be their last studio album, followed by another tour.

Family gave their final concert at the Hawthorn Building of Leicester Polytechnic on 13 October 1973. Many of its members went on to different musical projects; Roger Chapman and John "Charlie" Whitney formed the band Streetwalkers; John Wetton played with King Crimson and eventually became the lead singer of the band Asia. Rob Townsend was a member of Medicine Head between 1973 and 1975. He has been a member of The Blues Band since 1979 and of The Manfreds since 1991. Ric Grech died of kidney and liver failure in 1990 at the age of 43, as a result of alcoholism. Tony Ashton died in 2001 at the age of 55 of cancer. Jim King died on 6 February 2012 in Middlewich, Cheshire, at the age of 69. Wetton died on 31 January 2017, at the age of 67.

Reunion performances (2013–2016)
In September 2012 the band announced a one-off reunion gig on 2 February 2013 at the O2 Shepherds Bush Empire, London featuring Roger Chapman, Poli Palmer, Rob Townsend and Jim Cregan Demand for tickets was so great that an extra show was scheduled for the previous night as well and an expanded line-up of the band (also featuring Chapman's regular back-up musicians Paul Hirsh, John Lingwood, Nick Payn, Gary Twigg and Geoff Whitehorn, billed as "The In Laws") played to sell-out audiences. The setlist on both nights included: Top of the Hill, Drowned in Wine, Holding the Compass, Part of the Load, Ready to Go, Crinkly Grin, Burning Bridges, No Mule's Fool, Sat'dy Barfly, Between Blue and Me, Hung Up Down, Burlesque, In My Own Time. Encore 1: Weaver's Answer; Encore 2: My Friend the Sun, Sweet Desiree. During these performances Chapman paid warm tributes to absent band members Rick Grech, Tony Ashton, Jim King, John Weider, John Wetton and Charlie Whitney during the band's performance. The band went on to appear at the Rockin' the Park Festival at Clumber Park in Notts on 16 August 2013.

The limited edition Family box set Once Upon a Time, won the Storm Thorgerson Grand Design award at the 2013 Progressive Music Awards.

Family again played gigs in the UK in 2014 and 2015. In 2016 they appeared at festivals in England and Italy, as well as two gigs in London on 17 and 18 December and one in Leicester on 22 December, which were billed as the band's last shows. For these gigs, Chapman, Palmer and Cregan were joined by five other musicians.

Music
Family's sound was distinguished by several factors. The vocals of Roger Chapman, described as a "bleating vibrato" and an "electric goat", were considered unique, although Chapman was trying to emulate the voices of R&B and soul singers Little Richard and Ray Charles, with some reviewers noting however that Chapman's voice could be grating and irritating occasionally. John "Charlie" Whitney was an accomplished and innovative guitarist, and Family's often complex song arrangements were made possible through having multi-instrumentalists like Ric Grech, Jim King and Poli Palmer in the band and access to keyboards such as the Hammond organ, the new Mellotron, violin, flute and vibraphone. The band's sound has been variously described as progressive rock, psychedelic rock, acid rock, folk rock, jazz fusion, not to mention "British art rock," and hard rock.

Family were particularly known for their live performances; one reviewer describing the band as "one of the wildest, most innovative groups of the underground rock scene", noting that they produced "some of the rawest, most intense performances on stage in rock history" and "that the Jimi Hendrix Experience were afraid to follow them at festivals".

Family was an influence on Jethro Tull, with Ian Anderson noting that the band were particularly underrated. Both in his vocal sound and style and his dramatic stage presentation, Chapman was also a strong early influence on Peter Gabriel.

Members

 * Final members
 * Roger Chapman – vocals, harmonica, saxophones, percussion (1966–1973, 2013–2016)
 * Rob Townsend – drums, percussion (1967–1973, 2013–2016)
 * John "Poli" Palmer – keyboards, flute, vibraphone, synthesisers, backing vocals (1969–1972, 2013–2016)
 * Jim Cregan – bass, guitars, backing vocals (1972–1973, 2013–2016)

 * Former members
 * John "Charlie" Whitney – guitars, sitar, keyboards (1966–1973)
 * Jim King – saxophones, harmonica, tin whistle, piano, vocals (1966–1969; died 2012)
 * Ric Grech – bass, violin, cello, vocals (1966–1969; died 1990)
 * Harry Ovenall – drums, percussion (1966–1967)
 * John Weider – bass, guitar, violin, backing vocals (1969–1971)
 * John Wetton – bass, guitar, keyboards, vocals (1971–1972; died 2017)
 * Tony Ashton – keyboards, accordion, mellotron, backing vocals (1972–1973; died 2001)

Guest musicians

 * Dave Mason – mellotron (on Music in a Doll's House)
 * Nicky Hopkins – piano (on Family Entertainment)
 * George Bruno – organ (on A Song for Me)
 * Linda Lewis – backing vocals (on Bandstand)
 * Peter Hope-Evans – harmonica (on It's Only a Movie)
 * Geoff Whitehorn – guitar, backing vocals (2013)
 * John Lingwood – drums, percussion (2013)
 * Gary Twigg – bass (2013)
 * Paul Hirsh – keyboards (2013)
 * Nick Payn – saxophone, harmonica (2013)

Producers

 * John Gilbert – Music in a Doll's House and Family Entertainment (executive producer)
 * Dave Mason – Music in a Doll's House
 * Jimmy Miller – Music in a Doll's House
 * Glyn Johns – Family Entertainment
 * George Chkiantz – A Song for Me, Anyway, Fearless, Bandstand, It's Only a Movie

Studio albums

 * Music in a Doll's House (UK & US Reprise, 1968)
 * Family Entertainment (UK & US Reprise, 1969)
 * A Song for Me (UK & US Reprise, 1970)
 * Anyway (UK Reprise & US United Artists, 1970)
 * Fearless (UK Reprise & US United Artists, 1971)
 * Bandstand (UK Reprise & US United Artists, 1972)
 * It's Only a Movie (UK Raft & US United Artists, 1973)

title: Family (band)


text:
Talk:Sweetheart (Rainy Davis song)

Chartology
We read that Of much debate is whether "Sweetheart" failed to chart because of its poor chart performance, or whether it wasn't allowed to chart because it did not have the needed commercial release.

This precedes a prolix delineation of the debate positions.

Where is or was this debate? Is there any evidence that more than a handful of people are interested? And wouldn't the people interested in such stuff already frequent websites about Carey or charts or both? -- Hoary 11:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag
This article needs much more information on the Rainy Davis version of the song, assuming it was released as a single (and even if it wasn't, this article still concentrates too much on the Jermaine Dupri/Mariah Carey version). Extraordinary Machine 18:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The "featuring" part
I was wondering whether the song is a duet or is it jermaine dupri's song featuring carey??? can someone please get this fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.130.19 (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Genre
This song is R&B.It contains many R&B elements,and almost no pop elements.The song even features a rapper.--User:Butterfly52

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title: Talk:Sweetheart (Rainy Davis song)


text:
Kikuchi Yōsai

Kikuchi Yōsai (菊池 容斎), also known as Kikuchi Takeyasu and Kawahara Ryōhei, was a Japanese painter most famous for his monochrome portraits of historical figures.

Biography
The son of a samurai named Kawahara of Edo, he was adopted by a family named Kikuchi. When eighteen, he became a pupil of Takata Enjō; but, after studying the principles of the Kanō, Shijō, and Maruyama schools, perhaps, under Ozui, a son of Ōkyo, he developed an independent style, having some affinities with that of Tani Bunchō.

His illustrated history of Japanese heroes, the Zenken Kojitsu, is a remarkable specimen of his skill as a draughtsman in monochrome ink. In order to produce this work, and his many other portraits of historical figures, he performed extensive historical, and even archaeological, research. Zenken Kojitsu features over 500 major figures in Japanese history, and was originally printed as a series of ten woodblock printed books, in 1878.

Style
Nakane Kōtei (中根 香亭) pointed out that Yōsai modelled the form of Zenken Kojitsu (前賢故実) on Wanxiaotang Zhuzhuang Huachuan (晩笑堂竹荘画伝) which was drawn by the Qing illustrator. Kōtei also said that Yōsai was influenced by Hokusai when young. He thought of the calligraphy as much as the picture when he guided a pupil.

title: Kikuchi Yōsai


text:
Diana Hayden

Diana Hayden (born 1 May 1973) is an Indian actress, television host, model and the winner of Miss World 1997. She is the third Indian woman to win the title of Miss World. She also won three sub-titles during the pageant and is the only Miss World titleholder to do so. In 2008, she was a celebrity contestant in the reality show Bigg Boss.

Early life
Hayden was born in Hyderabad, Telangana, India, in an Anglo-Indian Christian family. She attended St. Ann's High School in Secunderabad. Her parents separated when she was in school and she had to start working at the age of 13. She worked for an event management company called Encore, during when she began taking up modelling assignments. At the age of 21, she worked as a Public Relations Officer at BMG Crescendo, where she assisted in managing the careers of singers Anaida and Mehnaz Hoosein.

Pageantry
Hayden's journey in pageantry began at the age of 23, when a friend recommended her to enter Femina Miss India. She was then shortlisted for the Femina Miss India 1997 contest. She finished second place and earned the title of Miss India World. She represented India at the 47th edition of the Miss World pageant held in Baie Lazare, Seychelles. A total of 86 delegates competed for the title and at the end of the event, Hayden was crowned as Miss World 1997.

During the question and answer segment of the competition, Hayden was asked - "Why do you want to become Miss World?", and relied:

"I draw inspiration from a famous writer and poet, William Butler Yeats, who once wrote - 'With Dreams Begin Responsibility.' Well for me, this title is that dream and the responsibility it brings, I cherish that in a small way I could make a difference and help the dreams of others. Thank you."

Hayden was also crowned as the "Miss World - Asia and Oceania" during the Miss World contest. In addition, she won the titles Miss Photogenic and Spectacular Swimwear. Hayden is the only Miss World titleholder to win three subtitles during the competition. She is the third Indian woman to win the Miss World pageant, after Reita Faria in 1966 and Aishwarya Rai Bachchan in 1994.

After her win at Miss World, she was signed up to endorse L'Oréal, Colgate and Chopard in India. She has been associated with various charities including Child Rights and You (CRY), Greenpeace, PETA and the Spastics Society of India. She has supported several causes to spread awareness about cancer and HIV/AIDS.

Career
Following her year as Miss World, Hayden moved to London and studied acting at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. She also studied at the Drama Studio London, where she concentrated on the works of Shakespeare and earned a best actress nomination from the studio. In 2001, she made her screen debut in the film version of Shakespeare's Othello in South Africa.

She hosted Miss Europe in 2001 and 2002 in Lebanon, along with Miss Lebanon 1997 and Julien Lepers. In 2005 she hosted a Television series titled Biography with Diana Hayden on The History Channel, India. Diana was signed in 2006 as the face of the Avalon Academy and currently serves as a celebrity Guest Lecturer for airline personnel training programmes.

In 2008, Hayden was a wild card entry on the second season of the Indian TV show Bigg Boss, and was voted off in Week 13.

Hayden spent two years writing A Beautiful Truth, an "encyclopedia on grooming and also deals with personality development and confidence building". It was published on 6 August 2012.

Personal life
Hayden is married to Collin Dick, an American businessman from Nevada. He had been working in Mumbai for an international NGO. In an interview, Hayden had stated that she met Dick when he came as a prospective tenant to rent her apartment. They got married in a private ceremony which was attended by their family and close friends, on 13 September 2013. The wedding took place in a country club in Las Vegas.

In 2016, she gave birth to a girl. The child was born from an egg that Hayden had frozen 8 years previously. In November 2017, Hayden confirmed that she was pregnant for the second time. In March 2018, she gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl.

Controversy
In 2018, Biplab Kumar Deb, the Chief Minister of Tripura commented on Hayden during a public speech. He questioned the rationale behind crowning Hayden as Miss World in 1997 and claimed that all international beauty pageants were a farce, since Hayden, who Deb found to be not beautiful was crowned in 1997.

Deb said - "Tell me, did she [Diana] deserve it? I can understand Aishwarya Rai getting it, at least she has traits of an Indian beauty." He went on to add that "for Indians, Goddess Lakshmi and Saraswati exemplify beauty. I don't understand the beauty of Diana Hayden."

Deb's remarks prompted a backlash from netizens and social activists. Hayden responded with:

"I am fighting this brown skin bias since my childhood, and I have succeeded. I am a proud brown-skinned Indian and I am hurt. I've had to fight the 'light skin is better' issue we have in India. I felt so strongly about it that I turned down a fairness cream ad because it went against my belief. The minister is in a prominent position and he should be careful about what he says."

Deb later expressed regret and apologized for his remarks on Hayden.

title: Diana Hayden


text:
User talk:Enni84

VWN en WCN
Beste allemaal Al enige tijd is er een Nederlandstalig chapter in oprichting, te vinden op http://nl.wikimedia.org. Dit wordt de Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland (VWN). Je kunt je interesse om lid te worden van deze vereniging hier aangeven.

Deze vereniging gaat eind augustus/begin september een Wikimedia Conferentie in Nederland (WCN) houden, volgend op Wikimania in Boston, gedeeltelijk erop inspelend middels een aantal discussiegroepen. Om iets dergelijks te organiseren is imput erg gewenst. Dus als je wilt meehelpen, of als je interesse hebt om bij een dergelijk evenement aanwezig te zijn, geef dat dan aan op nl.wikimedia. Ik hoop daar snel je imput tegemoet te zien! Met vriendelijke groet, effeietsanders 13:43, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Belgium
Hallo,

ik heb momenteel het initiatief genomen voor het nieuwe WikiProject Belgium, neem eens een kijkje en als je geïnteresseerd bent aarzel dan niet om je bij de deelnemers te zetten!

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 00:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

How wonderful!
-jjimjilbang - I'm amazed! :) - Airridi 10:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Greetings from WikiProject Korea!
Thank you for your recent contributions to Given the interest you've expressed by your edits, have you considered joining WikiProject Korea? It's a group dedicated to improving the overall quality of all Korea-related articles. If you would like to join, simply add your name to the list of participants.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask at the project talk page. We look forward to working with you in the future! Wikimachine 03:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Stub Sorting. (You can help!)
Hello . Thank you for tagging as a stub. I noticed that you used the stub template. In the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could sort the article to a subcategory by using one of these templates instead. For example, you can use US-novelist-1960s-stub for an American novelist born in the 1960s. Of course, if you can't find a proper category, you can always use the stub tag and someone else will sort it for you, or you can propose a new stub template or category here. Thanks! ~ Gosox ( 55 )( 55 ) 17:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Korean Film
Hello, I saw your ID on WikiProject and so I thought you might be interested in a debate at Template Talk on the topic of merging Infobox Korean Film into the generic Infobox Film category, deleting the Hangul/hanja/RR/MR information, or keeping it separate (as it currently is). I would appreciate it if you to contribute your thoughts or at least glance over it. The more people looking/thinking about it will give us better ideas as to what should be decided. Thank you. ₪Rick n Asia₪ 08:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:08, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Invite to the African Destubathon
Hi. You may be interested in participating in the African Destubathon which starts on October 15. Africa currently has over 37,000 stubs and badly needs a quality improvement editathon/contest to flesh out basic stubs. There are proposed substantial prizes to give to editors who do the most geography, wildlife and women articles, and planned smaller prizes for doing to most destubs for each of the 53 African countries, so should be enjoyable! Even if contests aren't your thing we would be grateful if you could consider destubbing a few African articles during the drive to help the cause and help reduce the massive 37,000 + stub count, of which many are rated high importance (think Regions of countries etc). If you're interested in competing or just loosely contributing, whether it's a river in Malawi, a Nigerian footballer, or a South African civil rights activist, please add your name to the Contestants/participants section. Diversity of work from a lot of people will make this that bit more special. For those of you who signed up to the North African contest, that will hopefully be held in the new year. Thanks. --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:11, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Asian 10,000 Challenge invite
Hi. The WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland The 10,000 Challenge and WikiProject Africa/The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like South East Asia, Japan/China or India etc, much like The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. At some stage we hope to run some contests to benefit Asian content, a destubathon perhaps, aimed at reducing the stub count would be a good place to start, based on the current WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon which has produced near 200 articles in just three days. If you would like to see this happening for Asia, and see potential in this attracting more interest and editors for the country/countries you work on please sign up and being contributing to the challenge! This is a way we can target every country of Asia, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant! Thank you. -- Ser Amantio di Nicolao Che dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 01:56, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Women in Red World Contest
Hi. We're into the last five days of the Women in Red World Contest. There's a new bonus prize of $200 worth of books of your choice to win for creating the most new women biographies between 0:00 on the 26th and 23:59 on 30th November. If you've been contributing to the contest, thank you for your support, we've produced over 2000 articles. If you haven't contributed yet, we would appreciate you taking the time to add entries to our articles achievements list by the end of the month. Thank you, and if participating, good luck with the finale!

Merger discussion for Jjimjilbang
An article that you have been involved in editing—Jjimjilbang—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. mettokki (talk) 07:48, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Capitalizing Go
Please join discussion here. Thank you. Coastside (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

title: User talk:Enni84


text:
Tha Kham, Surat Thani

Tha Kham (ท่าข้าม) is a town in southern Thailand. As of May 2024 it covered an area of 14.10 km² and had a population of 17,880. It covers parts of the subdistrict (tambon) Tha Kham of Phunphin District, Surat Thani Province. It is on the shores of the Tapi River. The Surat Thani Railway Station is in town center.

History
The town dates back to the sanitary district (sukhaphiban), Tha Kham, which was created on 17 September 1955. It was upgraded to a township (thesaban tambon) on 14 April 1986, and further upgraded to a town (thesaban mueang) on 20 December 2000.

Symbols
The seal of the town shows the Tapi River railway bridge.

title: Tha Kham, Surat Thani


text:
Janet Clarke Hall

Janet Clarke Hall (JCH) is a residential college of the University of Melbourne in Australia. The college is associated with the Anglican Province of Victoria. JCH is one of the smallest of the colleges of the university and was the first university college in Australia to admit women.

History
Established in 1886 as a residential hostel for women students of Trinity College, JCH was originally called the 'Trinity College Hostel'. It was re-named after a significant benefactor, Janet Clarke, wife of Sir William Clarke in 1921. Enid Joske was principal of JCH from 1928 until 1952 despite the uncooperation of the warden of Trinity, Dr Eva Eden was principal from 1964 until 1983. JCH became an independent college in 1961 and co-educational in 1973.

Principals of Janet Clarke Hall
Source:

 * The Rev’d Thomas Jollie Smith (1886–87)
 * Miss Lucy Waltham (1888)
 * Miss Emily Eddes (1889)
 * Miss Emily Hensley (1890)
 * Mr J.T. Collins (1892-1900)
 * Miss Lucy Bateman (1901–05)
 * Miss Lucy Archer (1906–18)
 * Miss Margery Herring (1919–27)
 * Miss Enid Joske (1928–51)
 * Miss Mary Bagnall (1952–57)
 * Miss Margaret Dewey (1959–62)
 * Dr Eva Eden (1964–83)
 * Mrs Phyllis Fry (1984–95)
 * Dr Gail Tulloch (1996-2000)
 * Dr Damian Powell (2001-2021)

College visitor
The current college visitor is Peter C. Doherty, winner of a Nobel Prize and Australian of the Year in 1997.

Notable alumni

 * Elizabeth Blackburn, Morris Herzstein Professor of Biology and Physiology at the University of California, San Francisco, winner of the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2009
 * Marita Cheng, Young Australian of the Year
 * Adrienne Clarke, former Lieutenant Governor of Victoria and Chancellor of La Trobe University
 * Helen Garner, writer
 * Dorothy Knox, (1902-1983) headteacher, college founder
 * Dame Leonie Kramer, former Chancellor of the University of Sydney
 * Diane Lemaire, aeronautical engineer, first woman to graduate from the University of Melbourne with a degree in engineering
 * Fay Marles, Victorian Commissioner of Equal Opportunity from 1977 to 1987 and Chancellor of the University of Melbourne from 2001 to 2004
 * Lorna Verdun Sisely (1916–2004), Surgeon, and founder of the Monash Medical Centre Breast Clinic.
 * Gillian Triggs, former President of the Australian Human Rights Commission
 * Hugh Williams, Melbourne Business School's first Melbourne Enterprise Professor and former Vice-President, Google
 * Sally Walker, former Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University
 * Peter Yates, former CEO of PBL and Chairman of the Royal Institution of Australia, the Australian Science Media Centre, the Faculty of Business and Economics at Melbourne University, and the Royal Children’s Hospital Foundation

Tutors
Former tutors include:

 * Manning Clark, historian
 * Marilyn Warren, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Victoria

title: Janet Clarke Hall


text:
Conservative Friends

Conservative Friends are members of the Wilburite branch of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). In the United States, Conservative Friends belong to three Yearly Meetings: the Ohio Yearly Meeting (Conservative), the North Carolina Yearly Meeting (Conservative), and the Iowa Yearly Meeting (Conservative). Of these, the Ohio Yearly Meeting is the most traditional. English Friends affiliated with the Conservative branch of Quakerism are organized as the Friends in Christ and tend to use the terms Primitive or Plain. There is no single unifying association of Conservative Friends, though a Wider Fellowship of Conservative Friends general gathering is held every two years. The Central Yearly Meeting of Friends is theologically conservative and plain dress-wearing, but since they are part of the Gurneyite branch of Quakers, they are not classed under the designation of Conservative Friends.

Characteristics of Conservative Friends
The origin of Conservative Friends is found in early 19th-century schisms, first with liberal, "Hicksite" Friends and then with evangelical-oriented "Gurneyite" Friends. The Conservative Friends is derived from the Orthodox Friends in the former schism, and in the latter schism, what are now called Conservative Friends were the "Wilburite" branch of Orthodox Friends. Through the schisms, they sought continuity of traditional practices and theological emphases, over new ideas based on outside influences.

The early Quakers, following Fox, taught that as a result of the New Birth through the power of the Holy Spirit, man could be free from actual sinning if he continued to rely on the inward light and "focus on the cross of Christ as the center of faith". Theologically, Conservative Friends continue to teach the historical Quaker doctrines on salvation and perfection.

The Conservative Friends have tended to follow the overt customs of plain speech and dress (in keeping with the Quaker doctrine of Testimony of Simplicity) more than other branches of the Society of Friends. While a minority of Conservative Friends wear traditional plain dress (it is not mandated), they are most associated today with that traditional Quaker folkway. Historically "ruffles and lace and other forms of ornamentation, as well as unnecessary cuffs and collars and lapels and buttons, were forbidden." George Fox implored fellow Quakers to wear plain dress:

For Conservative Friends, plain dress for men usually includes "a broad-brimmed felt or straw hat, trousers with suspenders instead of a belt, and muted colors in the fabrics: blacks, whites, greys, browns", sometimes with "broad-fall trouser cuts". Quaker men traditionally are clean-shaven. Conservative Friends women have traditionally practiced headcovering as taught in by wearing a "scarf, bonnet, or cap" and "wear long-sleeved, long dresses".

Conservative Friends also maintain the type of business meeting which was in use among all branches of Friends until the middle of the twentieth century.

Each Yearly Meeting publishes a small book called The Discipline which includes the polity and beliefs of the body; this book is called Faith and Practice by certain yearly meetings of other Quaker associations. The Discipline includes provisions for business organization; the naming of ministers, elders, and overseers; marriage procedures; and the Advices and Queries. The Queries are read on the local monthly meeting level, with the next higher levels (Quarterly and Yearly Meetings) summarizing the answers from the subordinate meetings. An example of one of the Queries is as follows:

An example one of the Advices is as follows:

Conservative Friends seek to maintain a Christian witness by living a careful lifestyle that is reflective of nonconformity to the world; The Book of Discipline of Ohio Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends has a section on Temperance, for example. It states: The same text emphasizes the importance of daily family worship in Quaker families:

Background
George Fox, the father of Quakerism, taught that apart from Christ himself, there was "none upon the earth" that could cure unbelief and sinfulness. The inward experience of Christ, confirmed by the Bible, was the foundation of the Religious Society of Friends. The following characterized the Quaker message:

Additionally, Fox taught the doctrine of perfection—"spiritual intimacy with God and Christ, entailing an ability to resist sin and temptation".

Friends have traditionally not observed sacraments, historically citing and embracing "this experience of a new covenant with God written on their hearts, rather than in outward forms". Additionally,

The Hicksite–Orthodox schism
Friends in the United States became divided during the early years of the nineteenth century.

In the mid-1820s, wealthy Friends in leadership positions in Quaker organizations in Philadelphia began to "express disunity" (openly disagree) with the ministry of Elias Hicks, a rural traveling minister from Long Island, New York, whose ministry emphasized direct experience of God over reliance on scripture. Hicks himself was concerned that urban, successful and wealthy Friends particularly in Philadelphia but also in the United Kingdom, had strayed from the testimonies and early practices of Friends. Of particular concern to Hicksite Friends were the notions of the authority of scripture over the Light of the Inward Christ, endorsement of justification and entire sanctification over the sense of gradual convincement, and the use of Trinitarian language.

Also of concern for both sides was the relative authority of the Yearly Meeting (favored by the Orthodox) and the Monthly Meetings (favored by Hicksite Friends). Hicks, who like his followers was from rural farming stock, was adamant that Friends stay a "peculiar people" behind the "hedge" of Quaker plainness while the Orthodox Friends were eager to integrate with modern urban society. Both groups were active in traditional Friends social justice movements, such as the abolition of slavery and right ordered care for the mentally ill.

Orthodox Friends ministers, Joseph Hoag and Stephen Grellet, spoke widely about statements made by Hicks in ministry which suggested that portions of the Bible were not accurate, particularly Hicks's view that the virgin birth was historically suspect and not necessary to salvation. Hicks always maintained that he spoke the words given him by God in what Friends called immediate revelation, but this proved unacceptable to Orthodox Quakers. Hicksite Quakers left PYM (1827–28) to form a new Yearly Meeting, with other yearly meetings soon to follow in division. The majority of Quakers distanced themselves from the Hicksites, and those in Britain refused to correspond with the Hicksites.

Many scholars have written about various aspects of these controversies. A good short summary is Larry Kuenning's "Quaker Theologies in the 19th Century Separations", but for more depth, see H. Larry Ingle, Quakers in Conflict: The Hicksite Reformation (Philadelphia: Pendle Hill, 1998).

Second (Gurneyite–Wilburite) separation
Within a decade, a rift was beginning to divide the Orthodox coalition. Most ministers and elders were placing additional emphasis upon the writings of the earliest Friends (called at the time the "primitive" Friends), while other Friends were becoming influenced by the growing Evangelical movement, in particular a group of British Friends ministers associated to varying degrees with Isaac Crewdson and the Beacon movement which began in 1830 in England.

The ministers and elders who emphasized the "primitive" Friends testimony became increasingly uneasy with the growing Evangelically-oriented ministry. The first official action in the movement took place when Elisha Bates, a former Clerk of Ohio Yearly Meeting, travelled to England without the official credentials (an endorsed travelling minute). On this trip, Bates participated in a baptism ceremony (Quakers had avoided external rites like baptism and eucharist/communion). When he returned to Ohio, he was not only "read out of meeting" (stripped of his membership), he was disowned by the Friends (a public declaration of removal from membership). One of the evangelical English ministers, Joseph John Gurney, travelled to America to support Bates and to meet with Hicksite Friends.

Instead of healing the wounds, Gurney's visit exacerbated the growing rift among the Orthodox Friends. Gurney believed that the position of the scriptures had been lowered too much among Friends; although he did not totally discount the influence or necessity of the Holy Spirit, Gurney placed the two as separate influences. He encouraged Friends to participate in government, including voting in elections (at the time, most Friends did not participate in politics). Gurney had decided as a young man not to wear the traditional Quaker clothing, stating once that he only wore a broad-brimmed hat one day of his life. He was a powerful minister and a prolific writer. Travelling among Orthodox Friends at a time when ministers were considered to be examples for the youth, he provided an example which was troubling to those Friends who were dedicated to the "primitive" movement.

During Gurney's visit to North America in 1837–1838, there was opposition to his ministry throughout the Orthodox yearly meetings. A minister-schoolteacher in Rhode Island, John Wilbur, objected to Gurney's use of the early Wesleyan understanding of entire sanctification. Wilbur wrote an anonymous article that argued for the "primitive" Quaker understanding of continual, daily interaction with the Holy Spirit. Thomas B. Gould, another Friend from Newport, RI, also spoke with Gurney during his visit and outlined where he thought his views departed from those of the early Friends. Other opposition to Gurney was based in the two Orthodox yearly meetings already known for their stand on the importance of an inward transformation (Ohio and Philadelphia).

The first division between the so-called Wilburite and Gurneyite Friends took place in Rhode Island in 1842. When the pro-Gurney majority of the Orthodox yearly meeting objected to Wilbur's writings about Gurney, they re-organized the structure of Friends meetings in western Rhode Island and stripped Wilbur of his membership. When Wilbur appealed his disownment, his quarterly meeting divided. New England Yearly Meeting (Orthodox) was unable to decide which quarterly meeting to recognize, which precipitated a division throughout all of New England.

The Wilbur-Gurney divisions continued for 15 years. New York Yearly Meeting (Orthodox) divided in 1847, and a Wilbur-influenced body was formed in Indiana. The major event in the divisions, however, was the division in Ohio Yearly Meeting (Orthodox) in 1854. This event led to divisions in Baltimore and Iowa later in 1854.

Philadelphia Yearly Meeting (Orthodox) initially recognized the Wilburite New England Yearly Meeting but later ended all official relations with other yearly meetings (including New England) in order to prevent its small Gurneyite minority from leaving. However, Philadelphia's Haverford College continued to educate Conservative Friends as other Quaker colleges (except for the Hicksite Swarthmore) were under the care of Gurneyite yearly meetings.

Conservative Friends in the present day
By 1905, there were seven Conservative Friends Yearly Meetings left in America and Canada as well as an unaffiliated but Conservative-leaning Orthodox meeting in Philadelphia. Of these, two have been laid down (Kansas Yearly Meeting, and Western Yearly Meeting) and two reunited with Gurneyite yearly meetings and Hicksite yearly meetings (Canada and New England); the undivided Philadelphia Yearly Meeting reunited with its Hicksite counterpart. In addition, most Primitive Friends communities at the beginning of the twentieth century in New York, New England, and Pennsylvania, had merged into other Quaker bodies by 1955. According to a website representing "Friends in Christ... a small group of Primitive Friends (Plain Quakers)" "plain" Quakers can today be found in the United Kingdom, in addition to some other countries." Ripley Quaker Meeting is a small group of Conservative Friends also located in the UK, who follow Ohio Yearly Meeting's Book of Discipline.

In the USA, three Conservative Friends Yearly Meetings remain as distinct Conservative Friends bodies in Ohio, North Carolina and Iowa; with Ohio Yearly Meeting (Conservative) being the most traditional Christian in belief and practice, of the three Conservative Friends Yearly Meetings; A small Conservative Friends remnant continues in some of the united yearly meetings (Canada and New England). In Europe, there are Conservative Quaker groups in the United Kingdom, while individual members reside in other countries too.

, the Ohio Yearly Meeting includes affiliated local meetings in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia, and Athens, Greece. The Iowa Yearly Meeting includes affiliated local meetings in Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Wisconsin.

title: Conservative Friends


text:
Vital Health Foods

Vital Health Foods is the largest vitamin and nutritional supplement company in Africa, with its head office in Cape Town. The manufacturer adheres to medicinal Good Manufacturing Processes. It is audited by the Medicines Control Council in South Africa and by Therapeutic Goods Administration internationally.

History
Vital Health Foods was the first health foods company in South Africa, founded in 1947 by Mr. Jack Grieve in the small town of Wellington, South Africa. The company has grown to be the leading supplement manufacturer in Africa, exporting internationally. The company formulates, tests, and manufactures its own products, and provides a customer helpline run by qualified dieticians.

title: Vital Health Foods


text:
Michael Schermick

Michael Schermick (born October 21, 1958), known professionally as Michael Kelly Smith, is an American guitarist who played for the glam metal bands Cinderella and Britny Fox. Schermick and drummer Tony Destra were fired from Cinderella in 1985 at the request of the record label, Polygram.

Following his departure from Cinderella, he joined up with Tony Destra, Dean Davidson, Billy Childs and Johnny Dee to form Britny Fox and became their lead guitarist. Schermick played on every album released by Britny Fox until their breakup in 1992.

Prior to Cinderella and Britny Fox, Michael had been a guitarist in the bands Atlantic Star, Telepath, Psychopath, Diamonds, Saints in Hell and The Priscella Harriet Band.

He also played in a band known as Razamanaz featuring Cory Massi on lead vocals and guitar, Joe Bisbing on bass, and Steve Attig on drums.

He currently teaches guitar in Horsham, Pennsylvania.

With Cinderella

 * "Shake Me"/"Nobody's Fool" (7") 1983.
 * Demos

With Britny Fox

 * Britny Fox (1988)
 * Boys In Heat (1989)
 * Bite Down Hard (1991)
 * Springhead Motorshark (2003)

With Razamanaz

 * Razamanaz (2003)

title: Michael Schermick