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Talk:Jhelum

General Asif Nawaz, Chief of Army Staff, belongs to small village name Chakri in Jhelum City. He is even buried in Chakri.

super mario 64
what to do cleanup ?

The lists on this page are just advertisements. Can somebody from Jhelum please edit these lists and remove non notable enteries. --Webkami 09:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I have cleaned up the links section by personally visiting and removing nonsense, not working and advert websites. Please do not mess it up again. --Webkami 16:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I am the real one who is from Jhelum, if I can find out about you where are you in Jhelum, than I will remove you, you fucken asshole,. i wil find out who is running this page without any authentic knowledge, you must be from lowest cast in our language we says " Kammi" i can assure you,  i will am working on it, i will smoke you out.

Image copyright problem with File:100px-Pk-punj.PNG
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Items missing citations
I intend to remove all items that have no citations. Every fact must be cited or it will go. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus for move -- Aervanath (talk) 04:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Jhelum → Jhelum (City) — Articles on other cities of Pakistan are only with city name, So this article should also be only with city name, Thanks. --Brainlara73 (talk) 18:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

 * It makes logical sense, but the curretn Jhelum page needs to become Jhelum (disambiguation) in order to make this sensibly possible. I can see no objection to your being bold with that in any case and deploying otheruses with correct parameters on the pages it will then be referred to by.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I think you mean Jhelum (city) → Jhelum, amirite? Jafeluv (talk) 14:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Kind of looks that way!  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Whatever it is. simply i wana Jhelum (City) moved to Jhelum due to above mentioned reason. Fiddle Faddle is also right, first Jhelum should be moved to Jhelum (disambiguation), then Jhelum (City) can be moved to Jhelum. For this we require Administrator's help. Brainlara73 (talk contribs) 19:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

 * The move to the disambiguation page is now done. By me.  It could have been by you :)  I have updated the requested moves page to ask an admin to simply finish the task I am unable to perform.

Move?

 * Is page Jhelum to be the disambig page, or the city, or what? Currently it is a redirect to Jhelum (disambiguation). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Jhelum → Jhelum (City) —(Discuss)— Articles on other cities of Pakistan are only with city name, So this article should also be only with city name, Thanks. --Brainlara73 (talk) 18:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * But what they meant was Jhelum (City) → Jhelum. 199.125.109.88 (talk) 13:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, the misunderstanding is "fixed". The move ought to be non controversial.  I have moved the original Jhelum to Jhelum (disambiguation) in preparation for the necessary admin assistance to move Jhelum (city) to Jhelum over the redirect.  Please would an admin assist with the final step?  Had I been an admin I would have solved 100% of this myself.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * But, unlike other cities in Pakistan, its name Jhelum is best known as the name of a big river. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Can the move of Jhelum to Jhelum (disambiguation) be reverted until this is sorted out, please? 199.125.109.102 (talk) 02:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The move of Jhelum to Jhelum (disambiguation) is a valid move whatever the outcome of the Jhelum (city) move. It has no effect on anything at all, and the pages that ity disambiguates to have the otheruses template deployed on them (with the exception of the Hong Kong one for now).  It is perfectly acceptable to have the (disambiguation) pseudo-suffix in a disambig page name.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a very confused move request.
 * 1) The term Jhelum is ambiguous and requires disambiguation.
 * 2) The request to move Jhelum (city) to Jhelum implies that the city is the primary topic, a claim which requires some evidence.
 * 3) The statement that Articles on other cities of Pakistan are only with city name, So this article should also be only with city name is faulty logic. First, is there an actual naming convention specifically applicable to Pakistani cities or geography? I don't see any, and without a specific guide, the general Naming conventions (geographic names) applies, and in particular, the section on disambiguation is applicable. Second, if you browse Category:Settlements in Pakistan and its subcategories, it is apparent that a variety of disambiguation schemes are in use for Pakistani settlements. Sometimes, "Pakistan" is appended with a comma. Sometimes the district or province name is appended with a comma. Sometimes "Pakistan" or the district or province name is appended as a parenthetical term. In a few cases, the type of settlement is used as the disambiguating term; e.g., Lehri (town), Pasni City, Bin Qasim Town, Saddar Town, Alizai (village), Aba Khel Village. I'm not suggesting that these articles couldn't be better named, but it is apparent that there is at present little consistency in naming conventions for Pakistani settlements with regards to forms for disambiguation (or at least there is no clear guidance).
 * 4) Without any evidence supporting a claim that the city is the primary topic, the base name should remain as the disambiguation page. Jhelum (city) might perhaps be moved to use some other form for disambiguation.
 * 5) If in the end the city is not moved to Jhelum, then Jhelum (disambiguation) should be moved back as it would be a malplaced disambiguation page. older ≠ wiser 14:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the concerns of others. The Jhelum River is an important river in Pakistan while Jhelum (city) is only 35th largest city in the country by some reckonings. What evidence is there that the city is the primary topic (read WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to see what this entails). —  AjaxSmack   01:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reliable sources in this article
I have serious concerns that http://apnihope.com/jhelumhospitals.html is not a reliable source. This means that none of the hospitals relying in this reference are actually cited. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 11:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I see my removal of the reference was removed. I removed it because the reference is not to a reliable source.  I challenge that alleged reference and will remove it once more.  If you feel it is a reliable source then state your reasons here rather than simply reverting my actions.  We work on consensus here, and I gave full reasons in my edit summary.
 * Much of this article is based upon half facts. the entire article requires a massive cleanup.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 13:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I note the newly added reference: Fauji Foundation Hospital, GT Road . The thing is, that meets verifiability, but it does not meet notability.  I am in the UK phone book.  I am verifiable.  I am not notable.  It's far better than the other reference, but needs more work I fear.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

 * By the way, that link implies that there are no other hospitals in the phone book on Jhelum. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Every thing is not available on internet, so what can i do for it? There are many things which i have added in this article but they are not available on internet, that information either i have read it in some book that is also not available on internet, or i have viewed it my self with my eyes and i m witness of that. thats what it is. Brainlara73 (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

 * There are two different questions here. First the items seen with your own eyes:  However true and real they are, without citations they are original research, and cannot be added.  While this sounds strange, this is an encyclopaedia, and must have citations from reliable sources.  The fact that one sees a car crash, as a silly example, does not mean it can be entered here unless reliable sources report it.  That means that it is notable and verifiable
 * The things "not on the internet" are much easier. You may cite books, newspapers, TV news bulletins, even newsletters (though newsletters may themselves not be sufficient).  To help you there are templates.  Look at cite book, cite news and cite journal as examples.  If a book has an ISBN so much the better.  As long as the item is a reliable source then it may, and should, be cited.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:41, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Extreme Bias by Sikh editors
The page is comical. It is nothing more than a joke. Why are the terms like 'wild mountain tribes' used for the people?

Maj. Gen. Sharif Nasir Shaheed is also a notable person of khewra Distt Jhelm & this great man should also be included persons of distt jhelum because he did a lot of work in Afghan war & embrassed shahadat in C-130 crash on aug 17 1988. Muhammad Suleman Khalid caste Lilla Ansari —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.36.13.80 (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Important sites around Jhelum city
Salaam, I have watched the Wiki articles with interest for many years but never been an active poster due to the information being capable of use and abuse, however with the recent proliferation of articles I feel now is the time for me to also contribute. I was born in the city over 50 years ago and having been a regular visitor am fully aware of its history and background.

With reference to the article on Jhelum there is a paragraph depicting important landmarks sites with photographs uploaded by TALHA depicting the Melangi supermarket next to the Mangla dam and The Akram Shaeed library, I feel this is not relevant and free advertising. It is a small minor shop and not an important or historic landmark. I have tried to remove it but it has been uploaded again, it is cheap advertising, but it also litters the article with non relevant matters and stops valid contributions. I am annoyed that my contributions to the article were deleted without explanantion or discussion but posted elsewhere as the editors own work. If the editor feels they need help in writing articles in grammatically correct English I am perfectly willing to asisst but stealing other peoples work is not neccesary.

My request is for an editor to remove this particular photograph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Melange_Super,_Jhelum_Cantt.jpg as it deflects from the contents that are valid being placed into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ch ifzaal mehdi (talk • contribs) 01:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your concern, and welcome to wikipedia. First i would like to explain the creation of new page Sport in Jhelum. This is not any type of stealing and here on wikipedia no one owns any article, its an encyclopedia where everyone is free to add. This was according to wikipedia's rule of Splitting the article. If any article size become too large it should be divided according to the rules. you can see procedure here.
 * Secondly you were thinking that this picture is advertisement. This ain't any advertisement but simply a picture of Jhelum in the same way as picture of Shabir Plaza is there in the article. --TalhaDiscuss  © 10:28, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Talha for your response. You know I have followed and appreciated your photography online since 2006/8. The article within which the photograph has been placed is about important landmarks around Jhelum. As nice as the photograph on its own may be I still cant understand how you justify that this one in particular contributes to the article. I am just trying to improve the article but as you feel so strongly about it I leave that decison to you. But ask that you consider the following posters coments in 2009 who also suggested that the whole article needs a good clean up -vis- ''The thing is, that meets verifiability, but it does not meet notability. I am in the UK phone book. I am verifiable. I am not notable. It needs more work I fear. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)''

Swiftly moving on to another way I feel the article can be improved. That is to remove the excessive reliance an articles from The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Jhelum District 1907. Since 1982 I have had a hardback copy of this voluminous work and have studied it thouroughly. This was compiled over a century ago by the British and is not reflective of contemporary Jhelum yet the Wikipedia article does not counter this viewpoint leaving any reader with the belief that the situation is still very much the same.

Although you have placed it in the historical section of the article it is duplicated as it was written and by not providing the contemporary viewpoint it mis-informs, for example The Janjuas Rajputs and Jats, who now hold the Salt Range and its northern plateau respectively and secondly The Gakhars appear to represent an early wave of conquerors from the west, and who still inhabit a large tract in the east of the district; while the Awans, who now cluster in the western plain Very many people read through Wikipedia for research, information, travel etc. It is only fitting that a contemporary balanced view should be presented. This is 21st century Pakistan but tribal affinities and ignorance can very easily create offence. It is important to bear in mind that this volume was written by the British for the British who did not thouroughly understand the dynamics of communities which have changed. If one cant present the contemporary view then the historical view needs to be handled with accuracy and care.

Another example is the article is awaiting sensitive input and photographs of the cleanliness and bands of beggars in the city, as well as the infamous "Gagghur" maala. Should all of us really be presenting a tourist manual with effectively censure still in place?? --Ch ifzaal mehdi (talk) 13:35, 16 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ch ifzaal mehdi (talk contribs) 11:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

 * If you think that we should minimize the reliance of the article on The Imperial Gazetteer of India just go ahead if you have more better reliable sources. This is just an encyclopedia which need reliable sources. --TalhaDiscuss  © 18:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

@Ch ifzaal mehdi:

The clans mentioned here literally represent most of the written history of Jhelum. You want your "contemporary balanced views" to replace the actual history of the place? Baburnama describes Gakkhars and Janjuas fighting for the control of Jhelum. Later on, history tells that Rohtas Fort was constructed to keep both Hamayun out of India and to fight the local Gakkhars, who put up a fierce resistance against Sher Shah Suri. But of course you want that history to be left out because you're a typical kammi kamin whose ancestors were irrelevant to history.

Vitasta was ealiest name of Jhelum
Jhelum's earliest name was Vitasta.

Encyclopaedia of ancient Indian geography By Subodh Kapoor-page-3

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=43Fzt-G_-XYC&pg=PA3&dq=great+abhiras&hl=en&ei=3ymQTeabHImmcKyBvY0K&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#

Vitasta was ealiest name of Jhelum
Jhelum's earliest name was Vitasta.

Encyclopaedia of ancient Indian geography By Subodh Kapoor-page-3

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=43Fzt-G_-XYC&pg=PA3&dq=great+abhiras&hl=en&ei=3ymQTeabHImmcKyBvY0K&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#

Abisares the Abhira king
Hazara (country), the Abisares of the Greeks;it forms the north-western district of the Peshawar division.It was conquered by Arjuna(Mahabharata,Sabha-Parva,Ch.27;JASD.(1852)p.234).But Dr. Stein identifies the kingdom of Abhisara with the tract of the lower and middle hills between the Vitasta(Jhelum) and Chadrabhaga(Chenab) including the state of Rajapuri(Rajauri) in Kasmira.

Its Spellings in English
I want to discuss its spellings (of title) in english. It is spelled "Jhelum" of which "Jh" is to be pronunced as "Jh" in "Jhang" (an other city in Western Punjab) because "Jh" is pronounced "جه".

But "Jhelum" is always pronounced "Jehlam" that is " جيهلم" in Urdu and Punjabi (Shahmukhi), but usually written as "جهيلم". My Pronunciation claim is proved in the articlte using International Phonetic Alphabets for English.

Then why in Pakistan it is written "Jhelum"?? It seems that some online software is used to return its spellings in english (software, i mean a software in which we insert any word in local language/script and it return converting in the other language i.e. English.

We can easily understand its pronunciation as being Punjabis but what about other non-Punjabis? They will just confuse in "Jh's" pronunciation in "Jhang" and "Jhelum".

Not only for making other non-Punjabis understand but also for our own Word's correction, we should effort and research on it.

Thank you very much! Tarvinder Singh (talk) 03:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC).

"Jehlum" not "Jhelum"
Please correct the spellings

Jehlum Ejaz Ahmed Mughal (talk) 18:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Languages.
Changed the most commonly spoken language to Potwari. The traditional dialect, or Majhi is in a few areas only, and usually by migrants from Gujrat etc. Potwari is by far the most commonly spoken language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.142.144 (talk) 10:40, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism or valid edits
This diff shows my reversion of a great swathe of undocumented edits by a new user whose sole edits are in this article. I have assumed them to be in good faith and reverted them. There has been no attempt so far to discuss these or to leave edit summaries. I have no idea if these are valid edits or vandalism, it is simply their large number together with the volume of cited material that has been removed that alerted me. Content experts need to discuss this matter. Fiddle  Faddle  09:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

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Assessment comment
Substituted at 19:50, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Correction in spelling
The correct spellings are "Jehlum" Ejaz Ahmed Mughal (talk) 18:06, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

External Links modified so In joy
External modified version 103.78.254.15 (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"Jhelum(city)" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jhelum(city)&redirect=no Jhelum(city)] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 07:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jhelum


text:
Stadiametric rangefinding

Stadiametric rangefinding, or the stadia method, is a technique of measuring distances with a telescopic instrument. The term stadia comes from a Greek unit of length Stadion (equal to 600 Greek feet, pous) which was the typical length of a sports stadium of the time. Stadiametric rangefinding is used for surveying and in the telescopic sights of firearms, artillery pieces, or tank guns, as well as some binoculars and other optics. It is still widely used in long-range military sniping, but in many professional applications it is being replaced with microwave, infrared, or laser rangefinding methods. Although much easier to use, electronic rangefinders can give away the shooter's position to a well-equipped adversary, and the need for accurate range estimation has existed for much longer than electronic rangefinders small and rugged enough to be suitable for military use.

Principle

The stadia method is based upon the principle of similar triangles. This means that, for a triangle with a given angle, the ratio of opposite side length to adjacent side length (tangent) is constant. By using a reticle with marks of a known angular spacing, the principle of similar triangles can be used to find either the distance to objects of known size or the size of objects at a known distance. In either case, the known parameter is used, in conjunction with the angular measurement, to derive the length of the other side.

Stadiametric rangefinding often uses the milliradian ("mil" or "mrad") as the unit of angular measurement. Since a radian is defined as the angle formed when the length of a circular arc equals the radius of the circle, a milliradian is the angle formed when the length of a circular arc equals 1/1000 of the radius of the circle. For telescopic angles, the approximations of $$\sin(\alpha) = \tan(\alpha) = \alpha$$ greatly simplify the trigonometry, enabling one to scale objects measured in milliradians through a telescope by a factor of 1000 for distance or height. An object 5 meters high, for example, will cover 1 mrad at 5000 meters, or 5 mrad at 1000 meters, or 25 mrad at 200 meters. Since the radian expresses a ratio, it is independent of the units used; an object 6 feet high covering 1 mrad will be 6000 feet distant.

In practice, it can be seen that rough approximations may be made with a right triangle whose base (b) is equal to the distance of the 'rangefinder' from the eye; with the aperture (a) being the hole through which the target is sighted – the apex of this triangle being on the surface of the user's eye.

For a standard distance from the eye (b) of 28" (71.12 cm); this being the common length of an archer's draw:
 * 28" × 1 milliradian ≈ 0.028" (0.071 cm) -- stadia factor 1000
 * 10 milliradians ≈ 0.280" (0.711 cm) -- stadia factor x 100
 * 100 milliradians ≈ 2.80" (7.112 cm) -- stadia factor x10

The approximate range of an object one foot (30.48 cm) in height covering roughly 100 milliradians is 10 feet (3.048 m) or:
 * Range (r) = approximate height of object (h) × (1000 ÷ aperture in milliradians (a))
 * r = h(1000/a) → where r and h are identical units, and a is in milliradians.
 * r = h/a → where r and h are identical units, and a is in radians

The above formula functions for any system of linear measure provided r and h are calculated with the same units.

Surveying
Stadia readings used in surveying can be taken with modern instruments such as transits, theodolites, plane-table alidades and levels. When using the stadia measuring method, a level staff or stadia rod is held so that it appears between two stadia marks visible on the instrument's reticle. The stadia rod has measurements written on it that can be read through the telescope of the instrument, providing a known remote height for the distance calculations.

An instrument equipped for stadia work has two horizontal stadia marks spaced equidistant from the center crosshair of the reticle. The interval between stadia marks in most surveying instruments is 10 mrad and gives a stadia interval factor of 100. The distance between the instrument and a stadia rod can be determined simply by multiplying the measurement between the stadia hairs (known as the stadia interval) by 100.

The instrument must be level for this method to work directly. If the instrument line of sight is inclined relative to the staff, the horizontal and vertical distance components must be determined. Some instruments have additional graduations on a vertical circle to assist with these inclined measurements. These graduated circles, known as stadia circles, provide the value of the horizontal and the vertical measurements as a percentage of the inclined stadia measurement.

This system is sufficiently precise for locating topographic details such as rivers, bridges, buildings, and roads when an accuracy of 1/500 (0.2%, 2000ppm) is acceptable. Stadia readings are also used to provide repeated, independent observations for improved accuracy and to provide error checking against blunders in levelling.

The stadia method of distance measurement is primarily historical for surveying purposes, as distance nowadays is mostly measured by electronic or taping methods. Total station instruments do not have stadia lines marked on the reticle. Traditional methods are still used in areas where modern instruments are not common or by aficionados to antique surveying methods.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Stadiametric rangefinding


text: Category:Airports in Oman

title: Category:Airports in Oman


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Talk:Recruitment

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 January 2019 and 18 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Willn143.

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2020 and 23 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MrsWright82.

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 September 2020 and 9 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NathanWanchulak, Sraykon, Kent Harding, Gurneetr, Alexm0133, Bonnettg, VKHRM, Tarpw, Ericmaik.

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 October 2020 and 10 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lsn0717.

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title: Talk:Recruitment


text: Category:Airports in Pakistan

title: Category:Airports in Pakistan


text: Category:Airports in Panama

title: Category:Airports in Panama


text: Category:Airports in Papua New Guinea

title: Category:Airports in Papua New Guinea


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Leveraged lease

A leveraged lease or leased lender is a lease in which the lessor puts up some of the money required to purchase the asset and borrows the rest from a lender. The lender is given a senior secured interest on the asset and an assignment of the lease and lease payments. The lessee typically makes payments directly to the lender as the lease payments are assigned to the lender.

The term may also refer to a lease agreement wherein the lessor, by borrowing funds from a lending institution, finances the purchase of the asset being leased. The lessor pays the lending institution back by way of the lease payments received from the lessee. Under the loan agreement, the lender has rights to the asset and the lease payments if the lessor defaults.

In this type of lease, the lessor provides an equity portion (often 20% to 50%) of the equipment cost and lenders provide the balance on a nonrecourse debt basis. The lessor receives the tax benefits of ownership.

title: Leveraged lease


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Bruce Fancher

Bruce Fancher (also known as Timberwolf) (born April 13, 1971) is a former computer hacker and member of the Legion of Doom hacker group. He co-founded MindVox in 1991 with Patrick K. Kroupa.

Early years
Bruce Fancher grew up in New York City. He is the son of Ed Fancher, who founded The Village Voice with Dan Wolf and Norman Mailer, in 1955.

Fancher attended YIPL/TAP meetings that were taking place on the Lower East Side of New York City. Fancher's peers included several hackers and phone phreaks of the day.

The hacker publication Phrack is filled with out-of-character rants at Fancher's work. Around the time MindVox was first launched, with Phrack's only humor issue (Phrack #36), also called "Diet Phrack". Phrack 36 included the first and last, official publication of an article co-written by Fancher and Patrick Kroupa, called "Elite Access", which was a cynical and funny expose of the "elite" and private hacker underground of the day. The article was apparently worked on and edited during a 5-year period, and there are at least 3 different versions of it that still remain online, including a much earlier, hardcore technical revision which has most of the commands to control phone company computers, deleted out of it.

Fancher and Kroupa's "games" with the "elite" made it into Kroupa's "Agr1ppa", a parody of William Gibson's Agrippa, which had been leaked to the world from MindVox. The opening verses include a letter dated 1985, from the SysOp (System Operator) of a pirate Bulletin Board System which had apparently thrown both Fancher and Kroupa off the system, for uploading cracked software, which they then infected with a virus.

Although MindVox quickly became notorious for the escapades of its hard-partying clientele, there is little or no evidence that Fancher was involved personally in the wild lifestyles of its members. However, he was at least indirectly affected, in that by 1995 Kroupa's drug use was fast becoming legendary and his ability to function on a daily basis was diminishing. While the media attention never ended, the development and growth of the system had slowed down and Phantom Access Technologies was taking on consulting positions to help other companies create their own online presence, and Fancher gained growing acclaim as a software architect and member of the dot.com technocracy.

There are perpetual signs of MindVox coming back to life and opening again, it appears likely that MindVox either went dark, or shut off public access, at some time in late 1997. The two main publications which covered the shutting of the gates, were The New York Times and Wired, who were apparently unable to arrive at a consensus, with the Times listing the sale of MindVox's client-base and the closing of the system, in 1996. Wired was still covering an apparently open and at least partially operational MindVox circa 1997, more than one year after the Times listed MindVox as being closed.

By the late 1990s, Fancher was involved in a series of start-ups where he founded and started companies and then sold after a few years. The best-known of these appears to be DuoCash, a micropayments company made infamous through a series of photographs posted on MindVox, taken from the DuoCash office building, located across the street from where the World Trade Center had stood a few days before.

Books

 * Rudy Rucker & R. U. Sirius, (1992) User's Guide to the New Edge (ISBN 0-06-096928-8)
 * Bruce Sterling, (1993) The Hacker Crackdown : Law And Disorder On The Electronic Frontier (ISBN 0-553-56370-X)
 * J C Herz, (1995) Surfing on the Internet (ISBN 0-316-36009-0)
 * St. Jude (Jude Milhon), (1995) The Real Cyberpunk Fakebook (ISBN 0-679-76230-2)
 * Charles Platt, (1997) Anarchy Online (ISBN 0-06-100990-3)
 * Melanie McGrath, (1998) Hard, Soft & Wet (ISBN 0-00-654849-0)
 * Stacy Horn, (2002) Waiting for My Cats to Die : A Memoir (ISBN 0-312-28744-5)

Magazines & Newspapers

 * Forbes, William Flanagan (1992), The Playground Bullies Have Learned to Type
 * Mondo 2000, Andrew Hawkins (1992), There's A Party in my Mind... MindVox!
 * The New Yorker (1993), CyberHero
 * Associated Press, Frank Bajak (1993), Wiring the Planet: MindVox!
 * Wired Magazine, Charles Platt (November 1993), MindVox: Urban Attitude Online
 * Sassy Magazine, Margie Ingall (1993), Hi Girlz, See You in Cyberspace!
 * New York Magazine, Jeff Goodell (1994), Boot Up and See Me Sometime
 * Business Week, Amy Cortese (1995), Warding Off the Cyberspace Invaders
 * Reuters, Therese Poletti (1995), Hollywood gets into Cyberspace
 * Los Angeles Times, Steve G. Steinberg (1997), Ex-Hacker Ready for Next Step
 * Forbes, Adam L. Penenberg (1997), Hacking the Corporate Ladder
 * Point of View (POV), Tim Barkow (1998), Turn On, Hack In, Cash Out
 * The New York Times, John Schwartz (2001), New Economy: Even in Downturn, Sex Still Sells

Film

 * Jason Scott Sadofsky (2005) BBS: The Documentary.

Television

 * CNN (1997). Panel Discussion on The Communications Decency Act (CDA)

Music

 * Billy Idol (1993) Cyberpunk, EMI

title: Bruce Fancher


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Category:Airports in Paraguay

This category is for airports in Paraguay.

title: Category:Airports in Paraguay


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Sean Bailey

Sean Bailey is an American film and television producer. He served as president of Walt Disney Studios Motion Picture Production from 2010 to 2024.

Early career
As a co-founder and executive of LivePlanet, Bailey served as executive producer for The Emperor's Club, the Emmy Award-nominated Project Greenlight, Push, Nevada (which he also co-wrote with Ben Affleck), and as producer of Best Laid Plans, Matchstick Men, and Gone Baby Gone.

From 2004 to 2008, Bailey continued as chairman and board member of LivePlanet while under a writing-producing deal at ABC Studios. In 2008, the film wing of LivePlanet was dissolved and Bailey teamed with Disney to form the production banner Ideology Inc, which produced Tron: Legacy, the sequel to the 1982 film Tron.

In November 2009, it was announced that Bailey would produce a remake of the 1979 film The Black Hole, which never materialized. He co-wrote (with Ted Griffin) the original screenplay for the 2016 film Solace, starring Anthony Hopkins and Colin Farrell.

Walt Disney Studios
In January 2010, Bailey was named president of production at Walt Disney Studios, overseeing live-action films produced by Walt Disney Pictures and Touchstone Pictures. Under Bailey, Disney has pursued a tentpole film strategy, which included an expanded slate of large-budget films, including franchise sequels, original films, and live-action adaptations of their animated films. The studio found particular success with the latter type of films, which began with the commercial success of Alice in Wonderland (2010), and continued with Maleficent (2014), Cinderella (2015), The Jungle Book (2016), Pete's Dragon (2016), Beauty and the Beast (2017), Aladdin (2019), The Lion King (2019), and The Little Mermaid (2023). Bailey has overseen the release of five films that have surpassed $1 billion in global box office: Alice in Wonderland, Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin, as well as The Lion King, which earned nearly $1.7 billion worldwide. The division has also produced reimaginings of other fairy-tale and classic stories such as Oz The Great and Powerful (2013), Into the Woods (2014), and Cruella.

Other tentpole films including The Lone Ranger (2013), Tomorrowland (2015) and literary adaptations of John Carter (2012), The BFG (2016), and A Wrinkle in Time (2018), became box-office disappointments. Despite the renewed focus on tentpole films, the studio continued to produce smaller, "brand-deposit" films, such as The Muppets (2011) and Saving Mr. Banks (2013), a period drama which was the first time the studio had depicted its namesake co-founder onscreen.

With the launch of Disney's streaming service Disney+ in November 2019, Bailey expanded the studio's output with a mix of projects from reimaginings of titles such as Lady and the Tramp and Pinocchio, featuring Tom Hanks as Geppetto; character-driven films such as Togo; inspirational sports dramas such as Rise, about NBA star Giannis Antetokounmpo; and sequels to popular originals as Hocus Pocus 2, Enchanted follow-up Disenchanted, and Peter Pan & Wendy. The studio also produces adaptations of children's and young adult books such as Timmy Failure: Mistakes Were Made, Flora & Ulysses, Stargirl, and Better Nate Than Ever for Disney+.

Bailey is noted for transforming Disney's live-action film slate with female-led tentpoles featuring empowered, contemporary heroines and expanding representation in these roles. Notable examples include Halle Bailey as Ariel in The Little Mermaid, Yara Shahidi as Tinker Bell in Peter Pan & Wendy, Storm Reid in A Wrinkle in Time, and Rachel Zegler as Snow White in the studio's 2024 live-action reimagining of the Disney film. Throughout his tenure, he has also championed female directors for major projects, including Ava DuVernay, Mira Nair, and Julia Hart.

In 2012, Bailey was named to the board of Sundance Institute, where he serves as vice chair. In 2015, he joined the Board of Trustees at Caltech, serving on its JPL Committee.

On February 27, 2024, Bailey stepped down as president and was replaced by David Greenbaum, who formerly co-led Searchlight Pictures. Bailey remains a producer for Tron: Ares.

Other ventures
Bailey is a founding investor of Teremana Tequila, founded by Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson.

Personal life
Bailey is the son of Jay Bailey, who was a biochemical engineer and professor at California Institute of Technology. His former step-mother, Frances Arnold is a chemical engineer and Nobel Laureate. Bailey is married to Charmaine Bailey and they have two children.

title: Sean Bailey


text: User talk:62.38.156.70

title: User talk:62.38.156.70


text:
1999 Hinckley and Bosworth Borough Council election

Elections to Hinckley and Bosworth Council were held on 6 May 1999 The whole council was up for election. The council stayed under no overall control.


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Category:Airports in Peru

This category is for airports in Peru.

title: Category:Airports in Peru


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R-29RM Shtil

The R-29RM Shtil (Russian: Штиль, lit. "Calmness", NATO reporting name SS-N-23 Skiff) was a liquid propellant, submarine-launched ballistic missile in use by the Russian Navy. It had the alternate Russian designations RSM-54 and GRAU index 3M27. It was designed to be launched from the Delta IV submarine, each of which is capable of carrying 16 missiles. The R-29RM could carry four 100 kiloton warheads and had a range of about 8500 km. They were replaced with the newer R-29RMU2 Sineva and later with the enhanced variant R-29RMU2.1 Layner.

Development
Development of the R-29RM started in 1979 at the Makeyev Rocket Design Bureau. The navy accepted the armament in 1986 and subsequently installed the D-9RM launch system consisting of a cluster of 16 R-29RM on board the nuclear-propelled Project 667BDRM submarines.

Operation Behemoth
On 6 August 1991 at 21:09, K-407 RUSSIAN SUBMARINE Novomoskovsk, under the command of Captain Second Rank Sergey Yegorov, became the world's only submarine to successfully launch an all-missile salvo, launching 16 R-29RM (RSM-54) ballistic missiles of the total weight of almost 700 tons in 244 seconds (operation code name "Behemoth-2"). All the missile hit their designated targets at the Kura Missile Test Range in Kamchatka.

Space Launch Vehicle
Several R-29RM were retrofitted as Shtill carrier rockets to be launched by Delta-class submarines, the submarines being mobile can send a payload directly into a heliosynchronic orbit, notably used by imaging satellites. Outside the confines of the Russian military, this capability has been used commercially to place three out of four microsatellites into a low Earth orbit with one cancellation assigned to the Baikonur Cosmodrome for better financial terms.

End of service
The last boat carrying R-29RM, K-51 RUSSIAN SUBMARINE Verkhoturye, went into refit to be rearmed with the newer R-29RMU Sineva on 23 August 2010.

Former operators

 * Russian Navy (1992-2010)
 * Soviet Navy (1986-1991)
 * Soviet Navy (1986-1991)
 * Soviet Navy (1986-1991)

title: R-29RM Shtil


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Alleycats (Malaysian band)

The Alleycats is a Malaysian pop band which was formed in 1969, and gained popularity in the late 1970s. It consists of musicians from Penang who were popular in their home state earlier on in their career.

History
There were earlier line-ups of this band but the original line-up mentioned were the ones that took the Alleycats to great height of achievements musically. The Alleycats was always on top of the musical scene in Malaysia even before it was signed up as a recording band.

This line-up secured a performance contract in the Mocambo Club situated in Central, a business sector on Hong Kong island in 1976. It was supposed to be a three-month contract but the band's success in wooing the crowd earned it three yearly contracts bundled with TV and concert appearances as means of promoting the band. It became a hit with the locals in Hong Kong. It was not until it left Hong Kong to start a new performance contract in Singapore that the band was spotted by major recording companies.

The Alleycats started out in 1978 by signing a contract with Polygram Records-Philips to produce an album. It went to Hong Kong to record its album in Dragon Studio. Later, Lion Studio in Singapore was responsible for mastering the Alleycats' albums. Its first released album was Terima Kasih (Thank You), with their first single Senandung Semalam (Yesterday's Serenade). Their 1990 album C.I.N.T.A. represented a departure from pop music into rock.

The existence of this band was vital to the Malaysian music industry. With more than twenty recordings, it had contributed to the development of the Malaysian music industry and is still regarded as one of the legendary Malaysian pop music bands of all time in the country. Despite the changes, the band is still active in performing and recording. The Alleycats have a strong fan base from all walks of life in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore.

Current members

 * David Arumugam - vocals (1969 - present)
 * Glenville Charles Salay - vocals
 * Priyadashini Loganathan (also known as Dasha Loga) - vocals
 * David John - drums
 * Nazaruddin Abdullah - lead guitar
 * Loh Kum Swee (also known as Jimmy Loh) - bass guitar
 * Prawing Aroonratana (also known as Mike Prawing) - keyboards

Former members

 * Loganathan Arumugam - vocals (1969 - 2007); died 2007
 * Tan Chin Hock - drums
 * Shunmugam Arumugam - lead guitar
 * Chester Anthony Passerella - saxophone
 * Khoo Fook Sin and Grenville Pereira (Gren) - keyboards
 * Frank Ong - bass guitar
 * Ramesh - lead guitar

Their music is said to be influenced by Air Supply, Phil Collins, Bee Gees, Billy Joel, David Gates & Bread, Santana and Paul McCartney.

Most of the Alleycats albums were produced by Eric Yeo. Most of its hit songs were penned by music supremo M. Nasir with the lyrics composed by S.Amin Shahab. The M. Nasir/S.Amin combination were most noticeable on hit songs such as Hingga Akhir Nanti (Till The End), Andai Aku Pergi Dulu (If I Go Before You), Sekuntum Mawar Merah Sebuah Puisi (A Red Rose And A Poem), Setahun Sudah Berlalu (A Year Has Passed), Seribu Bintang (A Thousand Stars), Nota Terakhir (This Last Note).

On 27 December 2019, former bass player Frank Ong died of lung cancer aged 54.

Death of Loganathan
Loganathan Arumugam, a vocalist of the Alleycats, died on 4 June 2007 following an 8-month battle with lung cancer. His death was deeply mourned by Alleycats fans as reported in the press and media.

An Alleycats Music Video Competition, held as a tribute to the late Loganathan Arumugam of Alleycats was conducted between 25 June 2006 – 25 July 2007. This was jointly organised by NGT Solutions (M) Sdn Bhd and Universal Music Malaysia, with the support from Multimedia Development Corporation (MDeC). It was in line with the government's initiative in encouraging contentpreneurs to develop local content and to be able to identify creativity in the minds of Malaysians.

A year after the loss of Loga to lung cancer, the Alleycats was the lead artiste in a concert organised by the Lung Foundation of Malaysia (LFM) to raise money for its activities. Established in November 2005, LFM is a non-profit Foundation geared towards offering support for patients afflicted with lung diseases to enable them to lead a better quality lifestyle with minimal suffering.

title: Alleycats (Malaysian band)


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Talk:Flail (weapon)

Cute picture
It's always neat to see other people expand on an article that you've written. Cute picture!

Harkenbane 06:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Morning star
The terms "morning star" and "mace" are incorrect when used to describe flails, and are themselves distinct from each other. The defining characteristic of flails (which you touched on) are that they are a mass of metal attached to a haft by means of a chain. Morning stars and maces have no interconnecting chain. -CW

From what I understand the termnology in morning star is actually useable to any of the weapons if it had spikes attached. And that a flail only has one chain link, much like the agricultral flails only with metal studs attached. So what is shown in the article is a mornigstar ball on chain, not a flail. -Dob

 * The EB 1911 article Flail says:

"::The “flail” was a weapon used for military purposes in the middle ages. It was made in the same way as a threshing-flail but much stronger and furnished with iron spikes. It also took the form of a chain with a spiked iron ball at one end swinging free on a wooden or iron handle. This weapon was known as the “morning star” or “holy water sprinkler.”"

 * What are the reliable sources that contradict that? -- PBS (talk) 13:09, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Merge with Meteor hammer
A flail and a meteor hammer are two distinct weapons. The hammer has no handle, and a much, much longer chain. Their origins are also completely distinct.--Vince Skrapits 02:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * NO MERGE, as per above Calicore 04:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. --James Hales 07:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Please DO NOT merge these articles. I am currently trying to create a more comprehensive article about the meteor hammer. The two are very different, not only in use but also in shape! --Xanthine 08:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As my major rewrite will now show, the meteor hammer article is not suitable for merging. Though I must thank you, it is a noteworthy point (and one I have mentioned) that chain weapons are often confused with each other. --Xanthine 13:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This weapon looks suspiciously similar to the 'Holy Water Sprinkler', see 'Tracht Wehr Und Waffen'.

Sources, people
Please, please, don't use Wikipedia to document your beliefs or original research. Look, just below the edit box: content must be verifiable. Any additions to this page really need to be supported by external sources. -- Rogerborg 23:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, please add 'some'' sources to this article. There's not a single source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.1.40 (talk) 23:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Zelda References?
Don't you think that the referencese to single battles where the weapon was used in Legend of Zelda games are a bit too marginal? I think "Use in popular culture" should include something more general, like analytic view of what kind of contexts the weapon is often used, or something like that. LotR reference is a bit marginal too, but probably much more informative to most of the readers. RandomMonitor 09:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed vague paragraph
I removed the following from the article: ''The Middle Ages was an extremely violent era in history featuring battles in both Europe and the Holy Land when the crusades, and the crusaders who fought them, were numerous. Feudal lords and knights used such weapons as the flail in different types of warfare. The quest for power led to invasions of lands and territories which had to be fought for. Siege warfare, waged to win a castle or a walled town or city, was a frequent occurrence during the Middle Ages. Warfare during the Middle Ages, or Medieval era, called for a variety of weapon expertise. Knights and men-at-arms (foot soldiers, or archers) used different types of weapons. The flail was predominantly used by knights and foot soldiers. The weapons used were dictated according to status and position. The weapons, armor and horse of the knight were extremely expensive.'' I don't know how this paragraph adds to the article, but it reads like a copy and paste from a school assignment about weapons and warfare generally. -Phoenixrod 21:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Leverage
I think the haft and chain arrangement allowed the wielder to swing the head with much more force than with typical maces, for example. I'm not sure if the chain merely adds length to the moment arm, or if the physics is more elaborate, but I believe this weapon hit really, really hard compared to other weapons of similar weight. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AThousandYoung (talk • contribs) 23:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Merge with Mace and chain
I say we merge this page with Mace and chain, as both are nor particularly long, the shorter one is a stub, adn it woudl benefit this article. Comments? --Patar knight 19:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Variations
I removed the following passage from Variations since I fail to see how it differs from the regular flail.

''A variation of the flail is called a chain mace. It is composed of a long chain usually wrapped in leather or another protective material, and has a steel ball at the end of the chain''

I altered the subsequent sentence so it would fit without the above sentence but I still find it inadequate.

also in Variations
"A variation of the flail is a handle with several chains attached to it rather than one, none of which have a spiked metal ball at their ends"

i think that merely refers to the flagellant style whip which is sometimes also named a flail, which is allready mentioned in the first paragraph· Lygophile   has   spoken  00:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Historicity
I have recently come across an academic study that among others claimed that flails (as a morning star head attached to a handle by means of a chain) were a figment of romantic imagination not unlike the Iron Maiden. I don't recall where I read that but it has sparked some doubt in me. Therefore, I would like to encourage everybody contributing to medieval weaponry on Wikipedia to try and find the following: Prove me wrong, please. I'd like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trigaranus (talk • contribs) 21:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * medieval renditions of flails in pictorial sources
 * actual medieval examples of flails in museums
 * written sources from the medieval era describing a flail
 * Thought I had signed that, sorry. BTW: the Hussite examples I've seen so far were just a straightforward peasants' threshing flail with an iron-clad front part, and nothing like the weapon depicted on Wikipedia. Trigaranus 21:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I believe you are correct, ive looked in some books and none of them mentioned morningstar flails, and one book specificly said they were not commonly used, maybe not ever used. The flails used by wheat farmers were used as improvised weapons though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.165.40.133 (talk • contribs) 7 November 2007

 * I mentioned these concerns in the german Wikipedia article Flegel (Waffe), stating that there are no academic sources for flails as customary weapons from late antiquity to modern times (barring agricultural tools used as improvised weapons). The whole idea of flail-wielding knights or Landsknechte is a ridiculous figment of romanticism and contemporary fantasy-culture (ie Dungeons & Dragons). On the german article's discussion page I suggested the deletion of the whole article, except for a short account of the misconception itself, which (since they actually have been used as improvised weapons) could be placed in the article on the agricultural tool Dreschflegel. The same should be done here.

By the way: The picture is a joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.160.87.109 (talk) 15:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Without the handle
Is there a variation of the flail where the handle is just a longer chain? I have seen this type of weapon used in fiction but I dont know if it exists in real life. Diabl0658 04:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

 * As mentioned above, I have been looking for contemporary evidence for the use of flail-like (or ball-and-chain-like) weapons during the Middle Ages, or in fact, any time. So far, no results. Any kind of multipartite form (i.e. a massive head flexibly attached to some kind of handling device) -- except the modified threshing flail! -- should best be considered fictional until proven otherwise. Trigaranus 17:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Dating
I've seen that recently two contributors from the US have changed the date (13th-15th centuries to 11th-15th c.). But as so far, nobody has produced any evidence whatsoever of a flail of this kind being used ever, I suggest you only change this dating once you have some reliable information to back it up. If you can prove that such a mace-and-chain flail was actually used, please let us know. Trigaranus (talk) 07:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

 * See for examples these threads: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=137632, http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8785 As I understand it the short-handled flails weren't especially common, and most seem to be 15th century or later, but they certainly existed, in a variety of forms. 24.71.150.241 (talk) 05:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Major Revision
I have made a major revision to this page in order to reflect the fact that there is no evidence to support the 'iconic' form of the military flail, meaning a short stick with a ball and chain attached, of the military flail ever having existed outside the imagination of Victorian writers and contemporary fantasists. I have retained the use of the flail as an improvised weapon used on the battlefield by peasant armies, and a reference to the Hussites. If clear evidence is presented to refute me, I will certainly relent, but it is very important that we are presenting information verifiable with real evidence rather than merely reinforcing popular-cultural myths, no matter how cool those myths may be.

Dancer_Man (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

 * That may be, but the real problem with the article is that it has no sources, either before or after the revision. -Phoenixrod (talk) 23:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Very true. I'll try to drum some up.

80.6.158.42 (talk) 13:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I find your revision very well done, as it reflects what is actually known about flails as (improvised) weapons as well as what people believe about them (fantasy genre, roleplaying games asf). As a german user I have to admit, that a major revision like yours is still blocked on 'our' wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.160.109.174 (talk) 10:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I've tried to add a bit of substance to the historical description, with some contemporary illustrations. I've also added a couple of references to start us off, but more are needed. In particular, some good references to the use of flails by peasant levies. While I like the corrective nature of the major revision, I think it would benefit from distinguishing between the probably mythical short handled chain mace (this is what I grew up knowing it as)and the long-handled derivative, which did exist. This area to could do with some references for verification of the argument Monstrelet (talk) 12:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice one. Trigaranus (talk) 08:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

No longer a mace
The following text was removed from the History section of the article

''As of August 15th, 2009, the flail is no longer a mace.

'' It may be intended to announce a de-linking but, as such, it should be here, not in the article itself. Author has been notified to allow comments

Le Chevalier Delibere
The article contains a detailed description of a woodcut from this book but no citation to the edition. Although Le Chevalier Delibere is rare in that the author provided detailed notes for illustrators to follow, not all editions were the same. The illustration mentioned doesn't appear in the editions available online. Given its prominence in the article, a reference to the edition in which this particular illustration occurs would be valuable Monstrelet (talk) 10:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Seems the citation request is causing confusion (perhaps in the wrong place?). The source needed is the edition of Le Chevalier Delibere which shows the flail. Either a link or a straightforward citation. It is important because it is the only medieval evidence anyone has referred to of a short-handled flail.Monstrelet (talk) 19:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Metropolitan Museum Collection
As the description of allegedly medieval flails in the possession of the Metropolitan Museum in New York takes up quite some space in this article, I though it might be important to know that the information is likely outdated. Nikolas Lloyd who does a YouTube series on medieval weaponry recently did one about the flail (youtu.be/O-y6oirEsZA) and talked about how he contacted the Metropolitan Museum for information that he got from this very article. According to him it turned out that they took the opportunity to review the items in question and it turned out (1) they have got only three and (2) their authenticity is now very much doubted by the museum itself. It would be interesting to see if they will be updating information about their collection; this article should also reflect any updates the museum decides to make. --2.240.191.175 (talk) 20:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Just watched it. For reference, here are the actual links to the collections.

 * http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/33866
 * http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/25072
 * http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/33867
 * The source being used in this article is both very old (30+ years) and rather poor, being a large book of weapons written for young adult, non-historian readers. It's also worth noting all these flails were donations from collectors in the early 20th century, not archaeological finds, casting further doubt as to their authenticity. The Victorians were infamous forgers of medieval items and have done immense harm to the study of history.  It's high time we start calling this out rather than just blindly accepting things.NicoloSt (talk) 22:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I would argue that this topic should be enhanched with actual refrences from scholars who specialize in medieval weaponry and/or victorian reproductions. The current version of this paragraph relies solely on the (unreferenced) viewpoints of this youtubevideo, which is rather weak and speculative (note by I.Sonnemans). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.210.160.175 (talk) 13:22, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, they did exist
Five minutes of googling was enough to turn up four or five illustrations of knights with the cavalry flail, properly dated, on museum websites. I wish wikipedians wouldn't keep mistaking "I can't research" with "there is no evidence". Also "I read once" does not constitute "considerable debate" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.141.51 (talk) 00:06, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok first off, you will not get far with such a mocking tone and including "eye rolls" in your talk posts. What are you, 14?  The rule is prove it or go home.  We deal in sourcing here and no, I was not able to find any properly dated illustrations from the medieval period by simply googling "cavalry flail."  I just got lots of photos of modern "reproductions" and fakes.  That said, my concern at least personally is the truth rather than "being right," so here's some works I did find by consulting some people who are actual experts on medieval weapons.
 * This painting very clearly shows a fellow wielding a short, one-handed flail with three ball-shaped heads. Problems are that this was painted in the mid 15th century so technically it's from the Renaissance rather than the middle ages, and it's actually intended to represent a battle taking place in the year 627 in what is now modern day Iraq.  Depicted are a bizarre mishmash of armor, clothing and weapons from the 15th century armor, byzantine, and ancient Greek.
 * This painting very clearly shows a fellow wielding a short, one-handed flail with three ball-shaped heads. Problems are that this was painted in the mid 15th century so technically it's from the Renaissance rather than the middle ages, and it's actually intended to represent a battle taking place in the year 627 in what is now modern day Iraq.  Depicted are a bizarre mishmash of armor, clothing and weapons from the 15th century armor, byzantine, and ancient Greek.

 * I found this one as well, http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/small_perez_mendoza_frontispiece_217.jpg
 * This is an illustration by Cristóbal Pérez de Herrera in 1618, which technically is Early modern period, not medieval. I'm not exactly sure what the context is other than a collection of weapons, but it's worth noting the length of handle suggested it's a two-handed weapon.

 * Then there's this one: http://www.mediumaevum.com/75years/Two%20men%20with%20club%20and%20flail.JPG
 * Supposedly, it's from the 13th century 'Moniage de Guillaume', Biblioteca Trivulziana 1025, fo.142. Can't verify that though.  Also, it's clearly a two-hander.

 * Here's another: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/livre-des-merveilles-francais-2810/2836/
 * French, about 1410. Very nice example with the ball covered in spikes at the end of a chain, and from horseback by a knight!  But also, clearly used two-handed.
 * So, it appears they were around, but they were a little different that we perceive of them today. Also noted that all of these pictures are obviously out of copyright, and are free game to be uploaded to wikipedia's systems with proper attribution.NicoloSt (talk) 02:55, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

 * You forgot to copy/paste the last two links from the forum that you otherwise copied verbatim. 81.104.141.51 (talk) 07:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

"Bellfortis" 1405 approx - Knight waving a flail while pulling some sort of siege engine

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bellifortis-of-konrad-kyeser-besancon-bm-ms1360/4158/

"Wonders of the world" - Knight with a short handled flail at his belt

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4303/9819/

 * Fixed that for you ;-)

 * Anyway, that whole forum discussion was started by people surprised that wikipedia would deny the existance of something for which there is a reasonable amount of evidence - Prove it applys just as much to claims that things do not exist, hence why the Cite tags. If some scholar has written a book, or even a consensus of scholars all agree that the one-handed-flail was a victorian myth - quotes, page numbers, title, and author thank you! 81.104.141.51 (talk) 07:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Cool, guys! You are my heroes! :-) Trigaranus (talk) 10:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Hey, a source is a source, no matter where I found it. I still deserve credit for actually finding the correct attribution for some of them.  The forum did not, and I had to hunt them down myself (such as the Herrera woodcut).  I left out Bellfortis because it's not a strong source, because it was drawn very strangely by someone who doesn't appear to know what they're doing.  This is common in very old period paintings of military actions because the painters were usually not fighting men and made many mistakes, such as the way they depict archers.
 * Alright so here's the plan. I'm going to try and upload these into the system once I write out all the attribution information, as well as rewrite the section itself.  Please, if you know of a good text source, post it.  I do still stand firmly by the assertion that the many of flails found in museums are fakes and that many of the books written about these weapons have very poor sourcing, if any at all.NicoloSt (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Before I forget, I think the Talhoffer works might contain some depictions and even strategy, but I need to look those up again.NicoloSt (talk) 13:46, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't recall Talhoffer showing the single handed flail (or any other fechtbuch for that matter). I agree with NicoloSt though that we need to be careful of many museum specimens because of their lack of provenance.  So a clear image of a single handed flail from a period source is what we need (we have no issues with two-handed flails from sources).  The Bellifortis, suitably cropped to get rid of distractions, works quite well. Contrary to above opinion, I'd say it shows a weapon similar in design to a 15th century mace (iron handle, guard over handgrip) and is more plausible than some.  It would be helpful if someone can turn up a text source to go with it but previous attempts have proved fruitless.Monstrelet (talk) 15:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of this image I wrote that, but of course now that I look at it, it's obviously not a flail.  Mair's fechtbuch on the other hand does have entries on the long peasant flail, complete with martial spikes.
 * The Mair image is good - lively, colourful, illustrates the nature of the weapon precisiely. Maybe one for the lead, to replace the accurate but rather dull image there at the moment, which could be recycled to gallery? Monstrelet (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Good idea. The current one is not only dull, but the info says it was drawn in 1907.NicoloSt (talk) 01:03, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
 * On the subject of cropping, I was trying to compose a decent gallery of attributed historical images, but I can't get it to work with cropped images. I'm not skilled enough with this type of editing.  Can you help?  Here's one I cropped from an image that was already in wikipedia.

 * Regarding the single-handed flail (which is, as I understand it, the one whose historicity is disputed), none of these sources are really usable for whether or not the flail existed, since they're primary sources. Relying on them for that point would be original researech.  Most of the scholars who have expressed doubts about the historicity of the one-handed flail have acknowledged its appearance in art, but have argued that it was a fantastical weapon (a figment of the imaginations of artists, which was later reproduced in purely decorative and ceremonial purposes and never saw use as an actual military weapon), or that single-handed flails were drawn by artists who didn't understand how actual (two-handed) flails worked.  What we need if you want to answer that are modern scholarly sources (historians, etc) writing about the flail's history, not zoomed-in images and your own personal deductions based on them. --Aquillion (talk) 08:05, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The need for sources does cut both ways - it would be equally OR to reject all contemorary illustrations as fantasy, without sourcing that to a legitimate sources. The main academic source quoted at present appears to be Waldman, who came to the conclusion of an extant but rare weapon.  In cases such as this, the correct position is surely to reflect the fact debate exists as to whether the the flail existed and to source the main positions. Monstrelet (talk) 09:37, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Aquillion, your comment also seems to focus on this thread's sources rather than the sources used in the article itself. The article has some of the pictures, but doesn't rely on them as proof they exist, rather using books sources such as Walman and DeVries and the expert commentary contained within.
 * I knew this article was going to suddenly attract attention again when that Sturtevant article came out. It is a good article, as Sturtevant is a PhD historian and he even quotes DeVries, but a few of his remarks are purely opinion and he does not appear to be aware of Waldman, who provides photographs and more detailed commentary on these weapons.  An important thing I learned from Waldman is that these weapons are remarked on in German- and Czech-language sources, and so may escape the notice of English-speaking historians, much like the article on the fountain pen is completely oblivious to Leonardo da Vinci's working invention because the sources are all in Italian.NicoloSt (talk) 14:18, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I've added a new (to the article) information about the kisten, an early form of military flail, complete with academic source, to strengthen the discussion. Monstrelet (talk) 13:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Capitaine de Bast (1836) source
There's a reference mentioned in one of Nicolas Lindy's videos of a French source penned by a Capitaine de Bast in 1836. I need additional verification on this work, but I did find the text online on a possibly unreliable site (can't tell, I don't speak French): http://www.crcb.org/batons-et-fleaux-defensifs-1836/.html

With a bit of google translate, "Le fléau" variously translates as "flail" or "scourge." Best first refers to "Le fléau ou martinet," or "the flail/scourge or whip" and the description sounds like he's actually talking about a cat-o-nine-tails that has been modified to be a lethal weapon. The handle is very short, it has up to nine strings (not chain), which are tipped with lead balls. Best describes it as a purely attack oriented weapon that has the potential to kill its wielder if he doesn't know what he's doing. The second weapon Best describes is "le fléau à battre le grain" which is roughly "the flail to beat the grain," a fairly obvious reference to the long peasant's flail. It sounds as though Best describes its use as an extension of stick-fighting, which is consistent with Mair's early work. The last one is "Le fléau brisé" which I think literally means "broken flail," and describes it has having an iron ball with points. This sounds like a reference to the spiked-ball-style flail, but I can't really make sense of the French. Anyhow, an interesting source that may be of use, even if it's several centuries later.NicoloSt (talk) 14:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The fleau brise does seem to be a spiked-ball flail, with the novelty that it is held together by eel skin Monstrelet (talk) 19:07, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Eel skin? Very strange.  I have no idea where Best would have seen such a thing.NicoloSt (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Peasant flails in Manuals of Arms
Some more pictures I found on Wiktenauer, a HEMA wiki, of peasant flails in Renaissance documents.

Hans Talhoffer (1450s):
 * http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:MS_78.A.15_60r.jpg
 * http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:MS_78.A.15_60v.jpg

Michael Hundt (1611)
 * http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Hundt_088.jpg

Jakob Sutor von Baden (1612)
 * http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Sutor_108.jpg

NicoloSt (talk) 19:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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military flail variations
I feel that the section is lacking and statements (regarding danger and usability) refer to those two combined but are in my opinion different.

One version has a short(er) handle (to accommodate one hand) and a long chain - the chain (without the ball) is longer than is the length of the handle. I believe that is sometimes called "chain mace" or "ball and chain. It is closer to a chain weapon than a regular flail and should be considered as such, with inherent dangers of wielding a chain weapon. Chain weapons are notoriously difficult to master, so it's not a peasant's weapon even though it is depicted like that.

The other version which has the length of the chain shorter than it's the length of the handle is actually dangerous, questionably effective and honestly a miss. A failed version of two section staff. It can be a peasant's weapon. There is nothing special about it. But it's dangerous as in the heat of the battle you can forget and grip with both hands (and that can result in crushing one) or the handle can slip. Attention is divided between not crushing your hand and not hitting the body (while with the first version it's only not hitting the body which is a risk with chain weapons). It's very unpractical as it requires attention of chain weapons but does not offer the benefits. It also damages the handle.

To me those two are quite different weapons. They can't be treated the same. Setenzatsu (talk) 16:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Multiple balls
Any records of usage of flails with multiple balls. That seems like something from games and movies. It doesn't seem to have an effective value. The article could touch on that. Setenzatsu (talk) 16:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The Francesca painting from the 1400s seen in the article and a few others artistic renderings do show multiple striking heads. However, there are no surviving objects I can find that didn't turn out to be Victorian-era forgeries.  It is more than likely these depictions are intended to be fanciful artistic license by individuals with limited or no combat experience.  Like the Sturtevant article in the references states to, flails mostly appear in art of "the exotic or fantastical."  Plenty of tests show how impractical having multiple heads would be, but the problem is proving a negative.NicoloSt (talk) 17:25, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

 * There is a genuine two-ball flail in the Royal Armouries. Note that it is from the 19th century and probably represents a ceremonial rather than practical weapon.  https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-1589.html . Medieval illustrations of multi-ball flails exist but usually in "exotic" contexts, so may not represent real weapons.Monstrelet (talk) 12:09, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

other variations
According to this there are numerous variations:
 * STICK FLAIL | CHIN KUA CH'U LIEN | JINGUACHUILIAN, commonly known as a "Tip Stick" also known as Shao Zi Gun (梢子棍) and Pan Long Gun (盤龍棍, lit. 'Coiling dragon staff')
 * LONG STICK FLAIL | PA LENG LIEN | BA LENG LIAN | Lian Ting (連梃, lit. 'Linked staff') | Lian Jia Bang (連耞棒) also known as a Two Section Staff 长小棒 is a long two-handed "Tip Stick"
 * Three section flail, Lian Zhu Shuang Tie Bian (連珠雙鐵鞭, lit. 'Linked bead double iron whip') is a variant of Tie Lian Jia Bang (鐵鏈夾棒, lit. 'Iron chain with clubs') flail that has two connected striking ends. It could be an early predecessor of the three-section staff.
 * DOUBLE HEADED FLAIL | 連珠棍 | LANG YA LIEN | LANGYALIAN - long center staff and a shorter flail head on each end (it's not three section staff) 89.201.201.113 (talk) 23:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

 * This one noted that the Russian Wikipedia article has a bunch of information and images that this version just... doesn't. Might be good to look into bringing some of that information to here, too? HighPrincessErinys (talk) 04:04, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Pyeongon into Flail (weapon)
This article is about a Korean flail. Examples on the flail page include several of these type of flail, and illustrations of non-Korean ones that are exactly as this article is describing. This is not really enough substance to be considered for a page on it's own, and the flail article already has a section for "Variations outside Europe", in which a Korean sub-section can be used to put this info in to, as it is roughly one paragraph long. Chaosdruid (talk) 05:05, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose merging unreferenced content. Source that article or WP:PROD it. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:55, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Closing, given the uncontested opposition and no support. Klbrain (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Flail (weapon)