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Talk:Adoption in the United States

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 2 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Msa135.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2018 and 13 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kcline14.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:27, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Clean Up
Article still bears wounds it received when it was severed from Adoption. Need introduction and significant clean up. Danlovejoy 20:46, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Would it be too burdened for the article to be child welfare services in the united states, including foster care? 128.101.70.96 15:17, 21 October 2005 (UTC)lotusduck

 * Definitely. Bastun 10:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Link Policy?
There are already a large number of external links from this article, and more (many seeming to be individual adoption agencies) seem to be added/removed all the time. Considering that there are literally hundreds of such agencies, most with a website, could I suggest a policy of no individual agency being linked from here? Such listings are readily available, in any case, from some of the specialist adoption reference sites already listed, such as adoption.com. Thoughts? Bastun 10:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Given the lack of response, I'm going to remove the external links to adoption agencies and add the "Cleanup-spam" tag to the External Links section. Legitmate, licensed and registered adoption agencies will already be listed on some of the general adoption information sites that will remain. Bastun 23:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Bad sentence?
Under International Adoption, the final sentence is weird:

"There are no firm numbers on illegal or unethical adoptions, as adoptive families are reluctant to publicize unethical adoptions, but several countries have closed following high profile trafficking and corruption cases, such as Romania and Cambodia."

Several countries closed what?

 * Yep, have hopefully clarified it a bit. Bastun 11:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

where are the sources?
This article needs help. It makes some really broad claims, generalizations, and other logical fallacies and has literally no sources. This reads more like a person's thesis on the American Adoption Issue as opposed to a non-biased explanatory, informative view on it. Several sections are virtually non-existant. Shouldnt the adoption agency part at least be expanded to explain the different types of agencies and their role in adoption in the US. To me this article reads like someone wrote it in a hurry and is not an expert at the subject. --Ownlyanangel 12:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

American Adoption Not International Adoption
Who used a source for international adoption for this article? That just doesnt make any sense at all. Am I wrong to think that this article was just put together in a hurry? It is just terrible.

October 11, 2007 edits
Many of the changes I just undid were highly controversial statements written in a very POV manner. None were in any way sourced. For example, the statements about women aging out and having children specifically to go to college/get welfare certainly demands a citation from a reliable source relating it to "Adoption in the United States".

I did leave some basic info in place, hopefully to spur additions to the article. For example, that kids "age out" of foster care is worth some attention in this article, so long as it stays on focus (i.e., it must still focus on how it relates to "Adoption in the U.S." and the sources cited must refer to it in that context).

Mdbrownmsw 13:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Agree with the changes, with one reservation - the addition of the {who} templates to the "Reunification" section. Surely the existence of ISRR and many other registries is testament to the fact that "some" people (adopted and birth family) want reunion?  In general terms, though, yes - the article really suffered when it was hacked from Adoption. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 13:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not doubt that there are those who seek birth families. However, having a source is valuable for anyone wishing to further explore.
 * Mdbrownmsw 15:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The lack of a source for an obvious fact is not a reason to add an attribution tag, though. To the reader uninitiated in the ways of Wiki, it will imply that someone doubts the truth of the statement.  I've removed the tags and added a reference to a Google search giving over 12000 results for the U.S. and "Adoption reunion". Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 15:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The lack of a source for an obvious fact is not a reason to add an attribution tag, though. To the reader uninitiated in the ways of Wiki, it will imply that someone doubts the truth of the statement.  I've removed the tags and added a reference to a Google search giving over 12000 results for the U.S. and "Adoption reunion". Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 15:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

adoption statistics
You should mention if there's enough people adopting kids in the United States or if there's a lack of adopters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.7.200 (talk) 10:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

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Adding cost of adoption section
Hello,

I will be working on adding a section over the next few weeks regarding adoption costs in the U.S. I plan to highlight the cost breakdown, administration and legal fees, and variance among states. I may also compare the costs to other industrialized nations. I will also discuss government subsidies and incentives that lower the cost of adoption. This is my first major contribution, I know it's been 10 years since this article had any editing done to it, but does anyone have any tips for finding sources that are free access and reliable? Thanks! Kcline14 (talk) 05:27, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello again, I added the "Cost of Adoption" section. I plan to expand on it and add some more sources. This is my first major edit so please thread under this with any suggestions or flags so I can fix any errors or issues I missed. Kcline14 (talk) 19:38, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Added another section to my contribution regarding physical characteristics effect on adoption costs. Kcline14 (talk) 06:25, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Copied text
Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Adoption in the United States


text:
Meriwether, Louisville

Meriwether is a neighborhood two miles southeast of downtown Louisville, Kentucky, USA, and just east of the University of Louisville. It was laid out by David Meriwether in 1871 and the first houses were built in 1891. Nearly all of the homes are shotgun houses.

Its boundaries are the CSX railroad tracks to the north, Shelby Street to the east and I-65 to the west. Lincoln Park and Preston Park are located in the neighborhood. It is commonly referred to as part of greater Schnitzelburg. Meriwether is also sometimes confused with Louisville's Germantown and Saint Joseph's neighborhood.

Demographics
As of 2000, the population of Meriwether was 1,442, of which 64.9% are white, 29.8% are black, 4.2% are listed as other, and 1% are Hispanic. College graduates are 10.4% of the population, people w/o a high school degree are 23.9%, people with 1+ years of college w/o a degree are 13.6%. Females outnumber males 53% to 47%.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Meriwether, Louisville


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jenny Seemore

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. -R. fiend 06:35, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Jenny Seemore
Ad/vanity for non-notable "natural big-bust amateur web porn star" (Google lists only 3,840 pages). tregoweth 20:46, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nomination. tregoweth  20:46, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Abstain, would like to see this article referenced beyond "comedepot.com". Hall Monitor 21:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, she doesn't seem to be a notable porn star. She just has a site and links from other porn sites and spam pages. -- Kjkolb 03:49, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Abstain, most other articles from the porn star list have similar sources. Werner, 7.Oct. 2005
 * Delete per Tregoweth. -- DS1953 04:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Culture of Tanzania

Following Tanganyika's independence (1961) and unification with Zanzibar (1964), leading to the formation of the state of Tanzania, President Julius Nyerere emphasised a need to construct a national identity for the citizens of the new country. To achieve this, Nyerere provided what has been regarded by some commentators as one of the most successful cases of ethnic repression and identity transformation in Africa.

With over 130 ethnic groups and local languages spoken, Tanzania is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in Africa. Despite this, ethnic divisions have remained rare in Tanzania, especially when compared to the rest of the continent.

Natural history
The territory of Tanzania is home to some of the world's important archaeological excavations and their scientific interpretation:

Olduvai Gorge
The Olduvai Gorge is one of the most important paleoanthropological localities in the world; the many sites exposed by the gorge have proven invaluable in furthering understanding of early human evolution. A steep-sided ravine in the Great Rift Valley that stretches across East Africa, it is about 48 km (30 mi) long, and is located in the eastern Serengeti Plains within the Ngorongoro Conservation Area in the Olbalbal ward located in Ngorongoro District of Arusha Region, about 45 kilometres (28 miles) from Laetoli, another important archaeological locality of early human occupation. The British/Kenyan paleoanthropologist-archeologist team of Mary and Louis Leakey established excavation and research programs at Olduvai Gorge that achieved great advances in human knowledge and are world-renowned.

In July 2019, the Olduvai Gorge Monument was erected at the turnoff to Olduvai Gorge from the road which connects Ngorongoro Conservation Area and Serengeti National Park (a route traveled by safari-goers). Eng. Joshua Mwankunda conceived the idea of erecting a monument to commemorate this significant site while also serving as a signpost and attracting visitors to the Olduvai Gorge and museum; paleoanthropologists Nicholas Toth, Kathy Schick, and Jackson Njau planned and provided life-size fossil casts at the request of the Tanzanian government, which were used by the Tanzanian artist Festo Kijo to create the two large concrete skulls. The monument consists of two large-scale models of fossil skulls which sit atop a large pedestal with an informative plaque mounted on the side of the pedestal. The fossil skulls depicted are Paranthropus boisei and Homo habilis, two contemporary species which were first discovered at Olduvai Gorge. The large-scale models created by Kijo are each 6 feet tall and weigh 5,000 pounds. The monument project was funded by the Stone Age Institute and the John Templeton Foundation, in partnership with the Ngorongoro Conservation Area Authority (NCAA).

The Olduvai Gorge Museum, located 5 km beyond the monument, is situated on the rim of the gorge at the junction of the main gorge and the side gorge. As one of the largest onsite museums in Africa, the museum provides educational exhibits related to the gorge and its long history.

Tendaguru excavations
The Tendaguru Formation northwest of Lindi is considered the richest Late Jurassic strata in Africa. The formation has provided a wealth of fossils of different groups; early mammaliaforms, several genera of dinosaurs, crocodyliforms, amphibians, fish, invertebrates and flora. More than 250 tonnes (250 long tons; 280 short tons) of material was shipped to the Museum of Natural History in Berlin, Germany, during excavations in the early twentieth century.

The Tendaguru Beds as a fossil deposit were first discovered in 1906, when German pharmacist, chemical analyst and mining engineer Bernhard Wilhelm Sattler, on his way to a mine south of the Mbemkure River in former German East Africa, was shown by his local staff enormous bones weathering out of the path near the base of Tendaguru Hill, 10 km south of Mtapaia (close to Nambiranji village, Mipingo ward, 60 km northwest of Lindi town).

In 1998, an illustrated book in Swahili, whose title translates as Dinosaurs of Tendaguru, was published for young readers in East Africa. It presents a slightly different, fictitious story of the first discovery, which is attributed to a Tanzanian farmer, rather than to the German engineer Sattler.

Rock art formations
In February 2021, Polish archaeologists from Jagiellonian University announced the discovery of ancient rock art with anthropomorphic figures in a good condition at the Amak'hee 4 rockshelter site in Swaga Swaga Game Reserve in northwest Dodoma Region. Paintings made with a reddish dye also contained buffalo heads, giraffe's head and neck, domesticated cattle dated back to about several hundred years ago. Archaeologists estimated that these paintings can describe a ritual of the Sandawe people, although their present religion does not contain elements of anthropomorphization of buffaloes.

Languages
A total of 130 languages are spoken in Tanzania; most of them are from the Bantu family. Swahili and English are the two official languages of Tanzania. However, Swahili is the national language.

Given the conditions of the period, it was not possible to introduce Swahili in the entire educational system, because the scale of the task of writing or translating textbooks for primary schools was already considerable. As a result, English, the colonial language since the end of World War I, is still the language of high schools and universities. Many students leave school after finishing primary education.

Although the many non-official languages in Tanzania are not actively suppressed, they do not enjoy the same linguistic rights as Swahili and English. Some also face language extinction, such as the Kw'adza language that is not spoken any longer.

Literature
Tanzania's literary culture is primarily oral. Major oral literary forms include folktales, poems, riddles, proverbs, and songs. The greatest part of Tanzania's recorded oral literature is in Swahili, even though each of the country's languages has its own oral tradition. The country's oral literature has been declining because of the breakdown of the multigenerational social structure, making transmission of oral literature more difficult, and because increasing modernization has been accompanied by the devaluation of oral literature.

Books in Tanzania are often expensive and hard to come by. Most Tanzanian literature is in Swahili or, less often, in English. Major figures in Tanzanian written literature include Shaaban Robert (considered the father of Swahili literature), Aniceti Kitereza, Muhammed Saley Farsy, Faraji Katalambulla, Adam Shafi Adam, Muhammed Said Abdalla, Said Ahmed Mohammed Khamis, Mohamed Suleiman Mohamed, Euphrase Kezilahabi, Gabriel Ruhumbika, Ebrahim Hussein, May Materru Balisidya, Fadhy Mtanga, Amandina Lihamba and Penina O. Mlama and British nobel laureate of Zanzibari origin Abdulrazak Gurnah.

Media
From independence until 1993, all recording and distribution of music was strictly managed by BASATA, primarily through Radio Tanzania Dar es Salaam (RTD). Only the 4 Tanzanian genres were permitted to be recorded or broadcast, which at the time was ngoma, taarab, kwaya and dansi. The Broadcasting Services Act of 1993 allows private broadcast networks and recording studios.

Music

As in other countries, music in Tanzania is constantly undergoing changes, and varies by location, people, settings and occasion. The five music genres in Tanzania, as defined by BASATA are, ngoma, dansi, kwaya, and taarab, with bongo flava added in 2001. Singeli has since the mid- 2000's been an unofficial music of uswahilini, unplanned communities in Dar es Salaam, and is the newest mainstream genre since 2020.

Ngoma, a Bantu word, meaning dance, drum and event  is a traditional dance music that has been the most widespread music in Tanzania. Dansi is urban jazz or band music. Taarab is sung Kiswahili poetry accompanied by a band, typically with strings and percussion, in which the audience is often, but not always, encouraged to dance and clap. Kwaya is choir music originally limited to church services during colonization, but now a secular part of education, social, and political events.

Bongo flava is Tanzanian pop music originating in the early 2000s from muziki wa kizazi kipya, meaning "Music of the new generation", which originated in the late 1980s. Kizazi kipya's dominant influences were reggae, RnB, and hip hop, whereas the later bongo flava's dominant influences are taarab and dansi. Three recent influences on bongo flava are Afropop in the 2010's, as well as amapiano from South Africa and singeli from Tanzania, both since 2020. Singeli is a ngoma music style that originated in Manzese, a uswahilini in north-west Dar es Salaam. An MC performs over fast tempo taarab music, often at between 200-300 beats per minute (BPM) while females dance. Styles differ significantly between MC genders. Male MCs usually perform in fast paced rap, while female MCs usually perform kwaya.

In the few years prior to 1993, hip hop had been established in Dar es Salaam, Arusha and Mwanza. It was transitioning from English performances of hip hop originating in uzunguni, rich areas like Oysterbay and Msasaki with international schools, to Kiswahili performances of kizazi kipya, originating in uswahilini Following airtime on radio waves, bongo flava spread throughout the country, and the rest of the Great Lakes.

National anthem
The Tanzanian national anthem is Mungu Ibariki Africa (God Bless Africa), composed by South African composer Enoch Sontonga in 1897. The tune is the ANC's official song and later became the national anthem of South Africa. The melody is also the national anthem of Zambia. In Tanzania, Swahili lyrics were written for this anthem. - Another patriotic song, going back to colonial times, is Tanzania, Tanzania.

Music industry
The music industry in Tanzania has seen many changes in the past ten years. With a fusion of local and foreign music traditions, Tanzanian musicians have grown in prominence within the African Great Lakes region. It includes artists from traditional music, such as Dionys Mbilinyi, Sabinus Komba, and many others, to new artists in R&B, pop, Zouk, Taarab, and dance.

Imani Sanga is a composer, ethnomusicologist, church organist, and choral conductor.

Mwakisinini Felix is a music artist who contributed a lot to church music as a composer, trainer, and choral conductor.

Painting
Tingatinga is the name applied to a popular genre of Tanzanian paintings, which are painted with enamel paints on canvas. Usually, the motifs are animals and flowers in colorful and repetitive design. The style was started by Edward Saidi Tingatinga in Dar es Salaam. Since his death in 1972, the Tingatinga style expanded both in Tanzania and abroad. One of the most famous African artists, George Lilanga, was a Makonde from Tanzania. Contemporary Tanzanian artists include David Mzuguno, Haji Chilonga, Salum Kambi, Max Kamundi, Thobias Minzi, Robino Ntila, John Kilaka, Godfrey Semwaiko, Evarist Chikawe, and others.

Cartoons
Tanzania's cartoons have a history that can be traced back to the work of pioneering artists, such as Christian Gregory with his Chakubanga cartoons in the Uhuru newspaper back in the 1970s and 1980s, and Philip Ndunguru in the early 1980s. Outspokenly political cartoons were created on a more recent date.

In the past decade, the art of cartoons and comics has really taken off in Tanzania. At the present date, there are dozens of cartoonists, some of whom are well known throughout the country. From the 1960s and so on, a number of artists prepared the way, and their names are cited by today's artists as essential influences. Some of these known cartoonists in Tanzania include Ally Masoud 'kipanya', Sammi Mwamkinga, Nathan Mpangala 'Kijasti', King kinya, Adam Lutta, Fred Halla, James Gayo, Robert Mwampembwa, Francis Bonda, Popa Matumula, Noah Yongolo, Oscar Makoye, Fadhili Mohamed, and many others (see the history of cartoons in Tanzania at the Worldcomics website: http://www.worldcomics.fi)

Sculpture
Apart from being a painter, George Lilanga, who died in 2005, was also one of Tanzania's most famous sculptors. Tanzanian craftsmen and artists of different ethnic groups have created a rich legacy of sculptures, representing people, animals or practical items of everyday use. Best known of these different ethnic traditions are the Makonde carvings of surrealist shetani figures, made out of extremely hard ebony (mapingo) wood.

Sports
Football is very popular throughout the country. The most popular professional football clubs in Dar es Salaam are the Young Africans F.C. and Simba S.C. The Tanzania Football Federation is the governing body for football in the country.

Other popular sports include basketball, netball, boxing, volleyball, athletics, and rugby. The National Sports Council also known as Baraza la Michezo la Taifa is the governing body for sports in the country under the Ministry of Information, Youth, Sports and Culture.

Cuisine
Tanzanian cuisine varies by geographical region. Along the coastal regions (Dar es Salaam, Tanga, Bagamoyo, Zanzibar, and Pemba), spicy foods are common, and there is also much use of coconut milk.

Regions in Tanzania's mainland consume different foods. Some typical mainland Tanzanian foods include wali (rice), ugali (maize porridge), nyama choma (grilled meat), mshikaki (marinated beef), samaki (fish), pilau (rice mixed with a variety of spices), biriyani, and ndizi-nyama (plantains with meat).

Vegetables commonly used in Tanzania include bamia (okra) which is mostly eaten as a stew or prepared into traditional stew called mlenda, mchicha (amaranthus tricolor), njegere (green peas), maharage (beans), and kisamvu (cassava leaves). Tanzania grows at least 17 different types of bananas which are used for soup, stew, and chips.

Some breakfast foods typically seen in Tanzania are maandazi (fried doughnut), chai (tea), chapati (a kind of flat bread), porridge, and especially in rural areas chipsi mayai.

Tanzanian snack foods include visheti, kashata (coconut bars), kabaab (kebab), sambusa (samosa), mkate wa kumimina (Zanzibari rice bread), vileja, vitumbua (rice patties), and bagia.

Since a large community of Indians have migrated into Tanzania, a considerable proportion of the cuisine has been influenced by Indian cuisine.

title: Culture of Tanzania


text:
Talk:Ricardo Maduro

POV
I certainly agree what was there at the end of the second paragraph was in need of change. What was there implied that Maduuro and his Congress were being successful against the gangs, which is evidently not true, but is now been completely reworded in an more neutral way, SqueakBox 20:47, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * How can it be determined if they are being successful fighting against the gangs? One of the factors is the number of people that have been imprisoned (which has already been included). What other factors can be taken in consideration here? We can't just say "widely" not only because it is POV but because we are not mentioning the factors why it is not being successful. --Vizcarra 20:59, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

We can't say he has been successful because it is not true, as sourced by the newspapers. For instance the other day there was an article about how there are many areas of San Pedro Sula where taxis won't go because of the gangs, and there are many anecdotal tails in the press that indicate that the gangs are still very active. Statistics also prove that there has not been a reduction in violent crime, drugs, etc. Plus everyone in Honduras knows that this is the case, that there are areas in every town where it is dangerous, that the Police are ineffective, that there is a lot of coke money, etc. Claiming he has been successful is pure PNH propaganda trying to win the forthcoming election, and as POV slant has no place in the article so we shouldn't try to judge at all the success or otherwise of Maduro's efforts, though when he does go in January it would be good to try and get some sourced judgements about his 4 years at the top, SqueakBox 23:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

This BBC country profile of Honduras bears out what I am saying, SqueakBox 00:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. i think he has been a good president he had helped in some way. teh Country

The articles references as Maduro's government to be "widely" accepted as catapulting tourism as the number one source of income second only to remittances. Also gives the government and its cardinal full credit for the recent debt pardoning the Honduras was subject to. I believe this paragraph lack neutrality and identifiable sources.

1) "Widely accepted" is definitely a disputed term. By whom?  Are there any polls to prove this?  Can this be disputed by others? 2) What exactly the government did to catapult tourism is also debatable since no source is given to draw a correlation of government actions and the tourism trends. 3) Is tourism even the number one source of income? 4) The debt elimination, was not the product of one president and its cardinal. The HIPC status has been a country initiative ever since Hurrican Mitch. The fact is the many countries, mostly African nations, got the the same status the same day as Honduras, proves that this was more a action driven by world opinion and several government's efforts than the single effort of two people.

I believe the paragaraph needs to be modified in great length or deleted. Wikihonduras 14:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Following Wikipedia standards related to articles about living persons, the following paragraph was moved to this page (Unsourced material and controversial issues):

"His administration is widely credited with catapulting Tourism to the number one source of income in Honduras, second only to remmitances from immigrants to the United States and Europe; ultimately achieving the record milestone of over 1 million visitors in one year alone. The economic adjustment measures taken by his administration - along with relentless and vociferous international appeals by Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez of Tegucigalpa - are responsible for achieving the pardoning of the bulk of foreign debt owed by Honduras at the beginning of his term." Wikihonduras 13:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Request to move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved Malinaccier (talk) 05:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ricardo Maduro → Ricardo Rodolfo Maduro Joest — To have uniform naming policy. --Caceo (talk) 15:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Oppose. After a quick search, Maduro is commonly referred to as Ricardo Maduro and Ricardo Maduro Joest. I would support a move to "Ricardo Maduro Joest", but not to "Ricardo Rodolfo Maduro Joest", per WP:COMMONNAME. — \`C RAZY `( lN )`S ANE `/ (talk • contribs) 17:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Per our naming conventions, middle names should be used only if that's the most common name for that person. That's not the case here. Jafeluv (talk) 12:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Common usage should be supported here, even if the person legally has other names. Please see Picasso as an example. Wikihonduras (talk) 23:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It'd be hilarious to have that article at Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno María de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santísima Trinidad Ruiz y Picasso, though. Jafeluv (talk) 07:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Additional ethnic and religious facts suggested to be added

When the page is next upgraded, I respectfully suggest taking the following data into account: ttps://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/maduro-ricardo#:~:text=Maduro%20is%20a%20member%20of,then%20to%20Curaçao%20and%20Panama  The current Wikipedia article does not take these facts into account and the article is thus misleading if it remains as it is.

Thank you.

EdwardLuft (talk) 19:28, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ricardo Maduro


text:
Talk:Grand Mosque seizure

A stricter form of the sharia was implemented
No, it wasn't. Don't say that banning women's rights, forcing people to become muslim and banning every other religion is Islamic, it's not.

Did you get this info from Bill Warner or something? Don't say something is about the sharia when you can't back it up without a surah.

Saudi Arabia is about as Islamic as a Pork Chop and a bottle of Vodka. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:8886:300:68B5:3C57:78C6:2E65 (talk) 16:12, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:FORUM violation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.45.222 (talk) 19:52, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

early discussion
I wouldn't describe this incident as Iraq-related, since it happened in Saudi Arabia, even before the first Gulf War.

The article mentions 200 dissidents, however another online article has the count at 500. Which is correct?

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a10070brothersties

Mathematics
The article says this: Islamic Militants, strength: 200 militants, casualties and losses: 250 killed, 600 wounded, 68 executed, this is 250+600+68= 918 "militants". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.239.205.43 (talk) 02:27, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

More Wiki links?
When I first read the article, last April, there was not even one article linking to this one. I linked to it from 3 other articles; it wasn't even mentioned in a list of terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia! I suppose it merits some more links, as there are so many aspects to this, relatively early, Islamist attack. GdB 10:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

OK another article on Wikipedia about alqutaibi mentions that there were 1200 to 1500 terrorists, but this article sayd there were 250. Another mistake, the mosque is in Mecca, but, in the quotations from the Middle East expert, they mention that the Mosque is in Medina, a different city.

Great work
Wow, there's a whole lot more to this article than the last time I looked at it. Good job, people!

Videos of the Incident
first of all There Was No Pakistani Involvement

i have two videos of the incident. all the troopers and vehicles in the videos of combat were Saudis. the Pakistani involvement is a rumor, not a fact. and its only started by "it is said that.." or a rumor by an anti-Saudi propaganda book which can not be reliable as a source.

only 3 Frenchmen from GIGN were connected but they never participated. they were sent to the military base in Taif to provide quick training for Saudi Special Security Forces on non-lethal gas weapons.

if it is possible on wikipedia, i may upload the live-combat two videos and make them available online.

--77.31.203.146 (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)SaudiVeteran

The first citation in "notes" goes to a video which is completely unrelated to this event. The video in the notes is about an anti Israeli protest the Iranians held in 1987 which was fired upon by the Saudis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.43.177 (talk) 20:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

No evidence
There's no evidence of the French and Pakistani forces being involved. It should be either deleted, or someone should provide proof.--70.230.200.219 12:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Musharraf's autobiography In the Line of Fire makes no reference to the event. This would be an important event in his life I would think. Also, he was a Colonel at the time, not a Major, as mentioned here. Junaid — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.214.86 (talk) 05:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

 * I heard alot about french support in this case . Ammar  (Talk - Don't Talk) 13:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Unless you can provide a few links from reliable sources, it should go. Mbslrm 20:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * don't worry, i still did not contribute. Ammar  (Talk - Don't Talk) 00:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I can't provide online reference but I have read several times that French anti-terror units commanded the rescue operation upon fetvas from religious figures about using weapons in Kaaba. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.131.29 (talk) 22:00, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

It's often said in Arabic sources that the Jordanian army (not Pakistani) was involved with French assistance but there's no evidence either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.237.208.211 (talk) 15:09, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Has not the first hand account by Ukraine-born Yaroslav Trofimov, now with the Wall Street Journal in his book confirmed that there were French connection to the whole episode and not Pakistan's elite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.156.40 (talk) 12:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

 * Yes it is time to remove all this incorrect claims about Pakistani assistance, there isn't a shred of evidence supporting it. Tehre are many sources discussing both French Special Forces involvement, as well as US pilots flying Saudi aircraft helping hte Saudis end this takeover. The only Pakistani angle at all seems to be the burning of the US embassy in Pakistan.

Fareed Zakaria: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=63320228838951049 NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14765835 Former WSJ reporter book, including declassified diplmatic cables: http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/siegeofmecca/theBook.php SMih4 (talk) 15:23, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Mahdi rumor
I heard something about Juhaiman being declared the Mahdi during this debacle. Does anybody know further? (Thanks for the link to the book on the subject, I want to check it out now.) Rustoler 21:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Rafi

The Siege of Mecca: The Forgotten Uprising in Islam's Holiest Shrine
http://www.amazon.com/Siege-Mecca-Forgotten-Uprising-al-Qaeda/dp/0385519257

Additional information regarding the siege have appeared, included detailed information of GIGN involvement. Anyone keen to surmise the salient points?

Koxinga CDF 13:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Have attempted to cleanup and source the article
See what you think.--BoogaLouie 23:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

National Guard
"National Guard troops had infiltrated weapons, ammunition, gas masks, and provisions into the mosque compound over a period of weeks before the new year."

These are National Guardsmen sympathetic to the militants? This should be stated explicitly, it's confusing in its current form. Evercat (talk) 03:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

 * reworded it. Prevoiusly it sounded as though the whole National Guard was on the side of the insurgents. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

How do you “infiltrate“ weapons? I assume you mean “smuggled in“. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.11.41 (talk) 17:16, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

lameness
The slow motion revert war that has been ongoing for the past several days is remarkably lame. While it's also mildly amusing, does anyone want to explain why they are reverting? - BanyanTree 00:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm rvting to keep the article accurate. Wright (who interviewed many people) did NOT say
 * Because non-Muslims are not allowed in the holy city, they were used as advisers and the main storming of the building and retaking of the Holy Mosque was done by the highly trained Pakistani S.S.G commandoes
 * .... he said the French converted to Islam:
 * ''Lawrence Wright reports that only three Frenchmen were called in, members of the highly trained GIGN counter-terrorism unit. Because non-Muslims are not allowed in the holy city, they converted to Islam in a brief formal ceremony by Saudi religious leaders. Saudi officials deny the French actually entered Mecca. According to Wright, who interviewed Saudi officials, flooding and electrocuting were dismissed as impractical and lethal to the hostages, but an attempt to subdue the resistance with non-lethal gas failed also. Grenades were dropped into the chambers through holes that were drilled in the mosque courtyard and more than two weeks after the revolt began "the surviving rebels finally surrendered."

 * Aude says he is rvting "so that the text matches what the cited source says," but there's no contradiction.
 * The text does not say this is what happened, it says this is what Wright says happened. And Wright is a credible source. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Aftermath
I have an interest in the Israeli/Palestine conflict, and also participated in the rescue effort on September 11, 2001 in New York City at the then bombed World Trade Center. I am not particularly interested in intra-Muslim conflicts, but my other interests continually bring me to pages like this one.

The very last line in "Aftermath," implies success for the takeover--Saudi Arabia moved backwards (my view) towards repression of not only women, but dogs. If this is true, it needs to be cited carefully, because the fallout of a "domino effect" within the heart of Muslim culture would imply impact world-wide, including downtown Manhattan on that day, the day the "music died."

Oddly, wherever I look in wp and in other sources, I find old-school Nazis and shady Swiss bankers! What is up with that?--John Bessa (talk) 01:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

What is "most disturbing" about the leader having been formerly a member of the National Guard? The SANG employs many thousands of people, often just to provide them with an income. As a member of a traditional tribal family it was inevitable that he would have been a member of the guard.JohnC (talk) 05:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

What!?
I just finished read 'The Siege of Mecca' and I'm curious how such a major event (covered well in the book) could contain so many errors within this article. Since finishing the book I've been amazed at how many people (some quite well read) had never heard about this event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.214.50 (talk) 08:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a particularly important event in the English speaking world, which has more than enough religious nuts and extremists movements of its own. --NEMT (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I've also read the book. But from my understandings it was obvious that the author, although claimed that he was fluent in Arabic, knew nothing of the Islamic jurisprudence. He made a glaring mistake by concluding that the Wahhabi movement conquered Mecca and Medina because the need of water for the ritual of Islam, ignorant of the Tayamum that was allowed by the Quran. He also tried very desperately to connect the siege of Mecca to the rise of the movement of Al-Qaeda, when it was very obvious that Osama bin Laden's radicalization was due to the Afghan-Soviet war in the 1980's, and it had nothing to do with Juhayman Al-Otaibi, whom were dismissed as heretical when he declared his own brother-in-law as the Mahdi.(Funny, this part of information was conveniently left out by the author)

No, I did not made this up, you can straight up read the book. It was very obvious that the author had a hidden agenda in his writings. 210.195.200.224 (talk) 01:00, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Reasons? Plans?
Did the insurgents have a plan for anything, or did they just (like insane violent Münsterites) expect angels to come to fight at their side? Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 12:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

And then what happened?
There seems to be a bit missing from the narrative - the point of how the siege was actually resolved? Slac speak up! 06:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

First Prayer of the year
The date changes with the setting of sun in the islamic calender, not at midnight. So the first prayer would be the dusk prayer (Maghrib), not the dawn prayer (Fajr) as mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fauzan Zaid (talk • contribs) 11:36, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

citation needed - dubious
"By the evening, the entire city of Mecca had been evacuated. " - some two million people? I think this statement is a bit far-fetched.HammerFilmFan (talk) 23:18, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Citation needed about musharaf
An unknown user via IP 203.170.74.82 has been add some info about this topic by Pakistani Gen. Pervaiz Musharaf was included in this operation. This is a new and Non-authentic information which is not present before any pakistani media even Musharaf book's "In the line of fire" is also silent about this topic. The Editor of this info is requested that give trustfull reference of this news, other wise requested to admin of this page that delete this information. This behavior may create Controversy.

Given reference i.e. is just a chit chat not a valid news source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nooruddin2020 (talk • contribs) 12:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Factual Accuracy Disputed
It seems this article is relying heavily on a Book " Wright, Looming Tower, (2006)", can someone verify the accuracy of this article? It seems there is still a conflict about Support by Pakistan & France. Can someone verify accuracy of their involvement also, Currently there are not enough references available to conclude something. Thanks -- Foodie ( talk ) 13:19, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The quote from " Wright, Looming Tower, (2006)" was deleted and alternative theory about how Pakistani commandos led the eviction of the occupiers, was inserted. I have since restored Wright's quote about French commando helping, added more sources, but also and kept the Pakistani part. I also added a cite for the Pakistani commando theory, see here --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:46, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * As far as whether Wright is a fringe theory. I have come across two other books on contemporary Saudi Arabia [Lacey, Robert, Inside the Kingdom, Kings, Clerics, Modernists, Terrorists, and the Struggle for Saudi Arabia, Viking, 2009;
 * House, Karen Elliott, On Saudi Arabia : Its People, past, Religion, Fault Lines and Future, Knopf, 2012]
 * that talk about French help and make no mention of Pakistan. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The aftermath section says: "First photographs of women in newspapers were banned, then women on television. Cinemas and music shops were shut down." This is not right; I worked as a journalist on a Saudi newspaper in late 1980 and again at various times in the 80s; we were allowed to print photographs of women in the paper, and women were not banned from television. Nor were music shops shut down -- Jeddah had dozens of them in late 1980, selling cassettes of Arab and western music. As for cinemas, I know of no public cinema ever being open in Saudi Arabia before or after the mosque seizure. Any comments?Manormadman (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Date conflict in the opening line
The opening line reads The Grand Mosque seizure occurred during November and December 1979 ... during the annual Hajj pilgrimage. This cannot be correct as a little later the begin of the GM seizure is stated to have occurred on the first day of the Islamic year 1400, i.e. three weeks after the Hajj. AstroLynx (talk) 14:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Reliable source Citation needed about Pakistani involvement and Musharaff
At this point this is just speculation without any reliable source. At best it should be listed under 'conspiracy theory' or rumor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.13.146 (talk) 22:47, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Title
Should there not be a consistency between the title of this article and Masjid al-Haram? -- Ե րևանցի talk  19:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Offer to help with the many inconsistencies and historically incorrect facts in this article
There are many inconsistencies and historically incorrect facts in this article. I am writing as someone who has researched the event for 7 (seven) years, has talked to over 150 people in Saudi, Jordan, France, USA, UK, Kuwait, UAE travelling more than 160.000 miles, with the purpose to produce a comprehensive documentary film for European television. The film is finished and since late 2018 is being aired on public broadcasting channels in France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, many other European countries and the USA. A reference to the film can be found here at the film's main website, here at Germany's first national broadcaster ARD, here at INA, the French National Institute of Audiovisuals who helped producing the filmand here at World Sales company PBS in the USA. As all films, this one also has a time limit, in our case we had roughly 80 minutes. And because we had to tell the whole story, the bulk of the sometimes hour-long interviews had to be shortened, some to two or three short appearances only. But as you will be able to see on the project webpage (here: ) and when you watch the film, we have 1) collected testimonies from all sides, 2) refrain from judgement or making any statements, and 3) attempt to describe the event itself with as many details as we could fit into the 80 minutes we had at our disposal. In the very near future, we will put up a website that will publish ALL the interviews in the ENTIRETY, including the transcripts (from Arabic, English, French, and German). But this will take a considerable amount of time, resources, and people who work with us. We are talking about approximately 165 hours of interviews and approximately 3200 pages of transcripts.

Now, since Wikipedia for many people is a major resource of research - for some it is the only one they have the patience to go to - I would very much like to hint to some of the facts that to us seem to be incorrect, missing detail or simply wrong. One of the most urgent of these details is the allegation that Pakistani Special Forces were participating in the liberation of the Grand Mosque. The article right uses several citations, among them Christian Proteau, the founder and former commander of French Special Forces GIGN. We interviewed Prouteau twice in Paris in mid 2017 and one of the questions we asked was about a Pakistani participation. He categorically denied that there were any Pakistanis involved. Now before you start thinking "why does he say that?", think about something else: Prouteau was not himself present in Mecca. He sent his team of three specialists to handle the affair. So any he says could possibly only relate to what those three officers observed and witnessed. Neither of them - team leader Paul Barril, weapon specialist Ignace Wodecki, or gas specialist Christian Lambert, all interviewed at length by us - have had ANY meeting with any Pakistani security forces, nor any recollection of any foreign military presence beyond their own. All of them though describe the state of major agitation, anxiety and fear among their Saudi colleagues: what was happening had caught everybody by surprise.

The fourth source: when we were researching and filming in Saudi Arabia, we were contacted by Abdulaziz Al Dhahri, the son of the Saudi General Faleh Al Dhahri who was the commanding military officer in Mecca of all operations taken out by Saudi forces. Again, we asked explicitly about Pakistani forces, and again the answer was no, there weren't any. The fifth source: one of the more extraordinary interviews we could secure was with Prince Turki Al Faisal, for almost 25 years chief of Saudi secret service and in 1979 appointed by Crown Prince Fahd and th Saudi royal family to lead the operations at the Grand Mosque. Same question, same answer. Turki though added an interesting detail: in the first days of the siege, Jordanian King Hussain flew to neighboring Saudi Arabia and offered his help. He was received by King Khaled himself at Riyadh airport, who thanked him but told him no Jordanian help was needed (and BTW, the Jordanians would have qualified SO MUCH BETTER than the Pakistanis: they were living nearby, they were British trained, and they knew the territory). Turki claimed that resolving the Mecca crisis was an operation that had to be resolved by the Saudi Royal Family itself whose duty was (and is) to be the Guardians of the Two Holy Places. We could corroborate his claim by other three sources.

Again, wait before you draw conclusions. Because if it seems interesting that Saudi kept the French involvement a secret (for obvious reasons), France did the same. No, I correct myself: France IS STILL DOING THE SAME. The "Mecca Mission" by the GIGN until today is not officially recognized by French authorities. Recently, a French broadcaster produced a big documentary about the special forces GIGN - the only mission that is not mentioned even once in the film is the one to Mecca. Our film though presents eye-witness accounts of people who were personally present when the official Saudi request for help was issued by Crown Prince Fahd himself to the French ambassador in Jeddah.

I could go on an on, but I don't have the time right now, even though I notice that even after more than 8 years of research on this subject, I am still passionate about it. The 1979 Seizure of the Mecca Grand Mosque was so much more than a "military event" or a "hostage crisis": it was the first and until today the most dangerous attack on the legitimacy of the Saudi Royal family's rule since their ancestor King Abdulaziz had founded the Kingdom in 1932. It was the number one trigger event that lead them to shift their country shift to extreme religious conservatism. And it ultimately was one of three events that lead to the formation of religiously motivated terrorism (the other two being the Iranian revolution and the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, all three of them significantly occurred in 1979). But that is the beginning of another story… If there is something like a "chief administrator" for this page, I am more than happy to be contacted by him / her and provide a private link to the English version of the film, and some more material if needed. I can't provide that link publicly because it would mean basically to steal from myself (I do films for a living and "giving my work for free" therefore is not an option). — Preceding unsigned comment added by OutreMer1966 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your extensive comment. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC).

Pakistani involvement
User:Truthwins018 (and before that various IPs) keeps adding claims that Pakistani forces were involved in the siege but I do not regard the main source: as satisfying WP:RS. Mztourist (talk) 08:26, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Mztourist you have also quoted half of a passage from the doctrine of terror book which clearly quotes that pakistani troops took part. Also another article i would like to provide you a link of which clearly states of pakistani involvement and another one  which clearly quotes  "Saudi Special Forces were unable to take back the holy site and had to call on French GIGN and Pakistani SSG commandos to intervene" and doctrine of terror also quotes " He claims that Pakistani SSG commandos, carried out the operation instead. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthwins018 (talk • contribs) 18:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC) and " An Elite Pakistani Unit called “Rahbar” was rushed to Makkah from Pakistan on the Saudi Governments request  and "  After more than two weeks of cross-fire with the Saudi Army, and with the help of Pakistani and French forces" and " allowing Saudi forces along with Pakistani commandos to enter the site and take out the militants" and also many arabic local sources e.g " حيث أُرسلت القوات الباكستانية للسعودية في العام 1979 بعد الهجوم الذي تعرض له الحرم المكّي في مكة المكرمة" ", which translates to " where Pakistani forces were sent to Saudi Arabia in the year 1979 at the attack on the Great Mosque of Mecca" and some video sources of KJreports which is a very trustable source and their article which mentions Pakistani commandos and an article from the diplomat which quotes " After all, Pakistani soldiers have previously deployed in Saudi Arabia: in 1979, after the Iranian Revolution, and to help out during the Grand Mosque siege in Mecca. The security commitment may include a “nuclear dimension.” and thenational quotes "In 1979 when religious radicals seized Makkah, the Saudi monarchy called on the Pakistani military to help battle the rebels and reclaim the mosque. Since then the two countries have maintained strategic military ties" and of arabweekly which quotes "Pakistan’s ties with Saudi Arabia go back decades. It helped fight the 1979 siege of Mecca’s Grand Mosque" Hope these would clear out the issue of pakistani involvement and i have plenty of sources left including in the arabic language Truthwins018 (talk) 21:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Most of the sources that you have provided are not WP:RS and those that are do not definitively detail Pakistani involvement in the siege, rather they contain vaguely worded reference to Pakistani assistance etc. RS requires properly researched information, not just anything you find on the internet. Mztourist (talk) 05:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Mztourist you mentioned most of the, not all of them. And every article is published after much research. And the main source of this is the doctrine of terror book and it clearly mentions pakistani commandos involvement and it has even been quoted in the article but skipping the next line for involvement of Pakistani commandos And i would not term the RS for involvement of three french commandos as reliable too, that is WayBackMachine. So i think it is best to quote both the claims on what happened Truthwins018 (talk) 17:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The French involvement is well known and documented in several RS, Pakistani involvement only appears to come from the Doctrine of Terror book and as I cannot access it I can't assess the relevant passage, please provide the quote that confirms Pakistani involvement. Mztourist (talk) 04:07, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Mztourist It is quoted as "He claims that Pakistani SSG commandos, carried out the operation instead. " I would also like to raise that almost all of the RS of french involvement are also quoted from the Doctrine of Terror bookTruthwins018 (talk) 06:40, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Note that Mahboob Illahi's Doctrine of Terror: Saudi Salafi Religion (FriesenPress, 2018) appears to be a self-published work and by admittance of the author on the copyright page to be largely dependent on Wikipedia. AstroLynx (talk) 15:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Doctrine of terror remains one of the most important source available and the whole of this wikipedia page is mostly sourced by it. Another book acknowledging pakistani involvement is The Audacious Ascetic: What the Bin Laden Tapes Reveal About Al-Qa'ida  Truthwins018 (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Neither of the books can be regarded as reliable sources and the newspapers are just passing mentions. You are welcome to take the books to the reliable sources noticeboard for community opinion. Mztourist (talk) 03:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

 * What do you mean by "the whole of this wikipedia page is mostly sourced by it"? Doctrine of Terror is cited only twice in the article. Also, even Doctrine of Terror isn't giving a very strong endorsement of Pakistani involvement; instead of asserting definitively that Pakistani troops were involved, it only states that Christian Prouteau "claims" that Pakistani SSG troops carried it out. Audacious Ascetic is a little better as a source, but its mention of Pakistani involvement is even more limited. From scanning the sources it looks like French involvement is always mentioned, but Pakistani involvement is only sometimes mentioned, and not with much detail. If you're going to include it at all, I think it would have to be in speculative style, like "Some claim that Pakistani SSG troops were involved".--Shmarrighan (talk) 08:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with Shmarrighan, unless better sources can be provided that is all that should be stated. Mztourist (talk) 08:42, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

User:Shmarrighan If the source of doctrine of terror is quoted in the article, I don't find it suitable to erase out a phrase from the ending of the quoted source. If christian Prouteau's views are under the seige section, he also mentions Pakistani involvement and it is completely justified to mention it with something like, quoted by Christian Prouteau. If you find doctrine of terror source as untrustworthy, either remove it from the whole of the article or stop trimming sources Truthwins018 (talk) 00:55, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no RS of Pakistani involvement. I have just finished reading Black Wave by Kim Ghattas and it mentions French involvement, not Pakistani involvement. Mztourist (talk) 03:11, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Truthwins018 As I said before, I would be fine with mentioning the possibility of Pakistani involvement as long as it's phrased in the style of "Christian Prouteau claims..." or something similar. The trouble is that it has been inserted into this article as if it is undisputed fact, which it is not. But I would also see no problem removing Doctrine of Terror from the article completely, particularly as it's now only cited one time. We would want to replace it with a reliable source for the French involvement. Mztourist, would Black Wave work as a source for the text that currently is sourced to Doctrine of Terror? The text is "the three GIGN commandos trained and equipped the Saudi forces and devised their attack plan (which consisted of drilling holes in the floor of the Mosque and firing gas canisters wired with explosives through the perforations), but did not take part in the action and did not set foot in the mosque but the action was rather performed by Saudi commandos." If Black Wave (or another source you have access to) holds this same information, I would appreciate if you would substitute it for the Doctrine of Terror citation.--Shmarrighan (talk) 08:13, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Black Wave doesn't go into that level of detail. I'll check Robert Lacey's Inside the Kingdom. Mztourist (talk) 08:15, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I checked Robert Lacey's Inside the Kingdom and there is no mention of any Pakistani involvement. He says that the French commandos stayed in Ta'if and didn't enter Mecca. Mztourist (talk) 13:39, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Going by our discussion, I would like to reach consensus on phrasing it like " and pakistani troops as claimed by Christian Prouteau" as approved by Shmarrighan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthwins018 (talk • contribs) 14:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not, there are no RS that support Pakistani involvement. Mztourist (talk) 08:47, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

request to lock this page due to the myth of pakistani involvment
there is NO evidence of pakistani troops, whatsoever. being from pakistan myself, i know what happens: first of all, this claim is considered common knowledge in pakistan and people are extremely proud of it. they will know nothing else or little about the incident. as such, someone from pakistan lands on this page and doesnt see any mention of their country's involvement they will add it.

since its not by done by one person but a large population, i think this article needs to be locked. it is frustrating to have this page being edited 20+ times for the same false claim.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:56A:F05A:A900:3168:5D30:1A84:619A (talk) 18:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Grand Mosque seizure


text:
Talk:General National Vocational Qualification

I must make clear that in order to enter Intermediate GNVQ you must pass the Foundation GNVQ or a minimal set of GCSE's at D or E grade. The Foundation GNVQ does not need entry qualifications, sometimes open to interview before the student begins the course.

Draig goch20 20:48, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Bias
"Generally Not Very Qualified". This is bias toward one view. Not everyone thinks the GNVQ is low in quality, there are people that I know have entered some good places of work with an Intermediate. Some people would disagree with this, though not many.

 * Where is the evidence that this was said, because the GNVQ was not even an equivalent of the A-level, and I was educated with a GNVQ myself and got further. People are generally becoming stupid every day. Amlder20 18:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

- Furthering on from this comment, I have decided to remove the last sentence as it evidently displays a violation of the following policies: Neutral point of view, Verifiability.

I worked hard in my GNVQ, but then someone on facebook told me it had been discredited is this true.. I realise that it's mainly coursework and you can retake the exams anytime. But its still very challenging..

As far as the jokes concerned i didn;t think it was generally not very quailfied but GOING NOWHERE VERY QUICKLY..

 * The old GNVQ was ok, but it was no different to your average GCSE/A Level. A GCSE exam can be retaken in November or January, depending on your exam board, the same with A levels, but no one claims these courses to be useless (unless your old and feel young people are having it 'easy'). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.223.222 (talk) 19:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

"Not worth much"
I'm not sure that removing the text completely is a good idea. There is a common misconception that GNVQs aren't worth four GCSEs. Weren't GNVQs originally designed for those who struggled with A-levels, or wanted to re-enter the curriculum at a later age? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 02:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

GNVQ in Wales
"GNVQs were used in a lot of schools in Wales in three dominant subjects: Engineering, Health and Social Care and Leisure and Tourism.". Your correct, but you missed out the subject of Information and Communication Technology, which was a widely used GNVQ course in the South of Wales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.221.164 (talk) 13:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I studied ADVANCED GNVQ HEALTH & SOCIAL CARE AND WELLBING in the year 1997-1999,with then Ealing Tertiary College (Etc) after which I travelled to Boston Massachusetts on a Voluntary program with Camp America and couldnt go back to collect my certificate, now am desperately in need of my certificate as I ll like to go on and study a Degree in Social Work, I wrote to Ealing Tertiary College but, was informed that they do not have records dated that back to those years, please do you or anyone have an idea of who to approach to collect my certificate? I have my FEMIS No and both ID cards from the college. Thank you and waiting in anticipation. Takobayim (talk) 13:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Help search for Independent, reliable sources
Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2019 (UTC)


text:
Japanese financial system

The main elements of Japan's financial system are much the same as those of other major industrialized nations: a commercial banking system, which accepts deposits, extends loans to businesses, and deals in foreign exchange; specialized government-owned financial institutions, which fund various sectors of the domestic economy; securities companies, which provide brokerage services, underwrite corporate and government securities, and deal in securities markets; capital markets, which offer the means to finance public and private debt and to sell residual corporate ownership; and money markets, which offer banks a source of liquidity and provide the Bank of Japan with a tool to implement monetary policy.

Banks
Japan's traditional banking system was segmented into clearly defined components in the late 1980s: commercial banks (thirteen major and sixty-four smaller regional banks), long-term credit banks (seven), trust banks (seven), mutual loan and savings banks (sixty-nine), and various specialized financial institutions. During the 1980s, a rapidly growing group of nonbank operations—such as consumer loan, credit card, leasing, and real estate organizations—began performing some of the traditional functions of banks, such as the issuing of loans.

In the early postwar financial system, city banks provided short-term loans to major domestic corporations while regional banks took deposits and extended loans to medium-sized and small businesses. Neither engaged much in international business. In the 1950s and 1960s, a specialized bank, the Bank of Tokyo, took care of most of the government's foreign-exchange needs and functioned as the nation's foreign-banking representative. Long-term credit banks were intended to complement rather than to compete with the commercial banks. Authorized to issue debentures rather than take ordinary deposits, they specialized in long-term lending to major keiretsu (系列).

Trust banks were authorized to conduct retail and trust banking and often combined the work of commercial and long-term credit banks. Trust banks not only managed portfolios but also raised funds through the sale of negotiable loan trust certificates. Mutual loan and savings banks, credit associations, credit cooperatives, and labor credit associations collected individual deposits from general depositors. These deposits were then loaned to cooperative members and to the liquidity-starved city banks via the interbank money markets or were sent to central cooperative banks, which in turn loaned the funds to small businesses and corporations. More than 8,000 agricultural, forestry, and fishery cooperatives performed many of the same functions for the cooperatives. Many of their funds were transmitted to their central bank, the Norinchukin Bank, which was the world's largest bank in terms of domestic deposits.

In 1990, the five largest banks in the world, measured by total assets, were Japanese banks. These banks opened branches abroad, acquired existing foreign banks, and became engaged in new activities, such as underwriting Euro-yen bond issues. The investment houses also increased overseas activities, especially participating in the United States Treasury bond market (where as much as 25 to 30% of each new issue was purchased by Japanese investors in the late 1980s). As of March 1989, the five largest city banks in Japan (in order of total fund volume) were Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank, Sumitomo Bank, Fuji Bank, Mitsubishi Bank, and Sanwa Bank.

Government institutions
A group of government financial institutions paralleled the private banking sector. The Japan Export-Import Bank (JEXIM), the Japan Development Bank, and a number of finance corporations, such as the Housing Loan Corporation, promoted the growth of specialized sectors of the domestic economy. These institutions derived their funding from deposits collected by the postal savings system and deposited with the Trust Fund Bureau. The postal savings system, through the 24,000 post offices, accepted funds in various forms, including savings, annuities, and insurance. The post offices offered the highest interest rates for regular savings accounts (8% for time deposits in 1990) and tax-free savings until 1988, thereby collecting more deposits and accounts than any other institution in the world.

The Japan Bank for International Cooperation (JBIC) is the only government institution with an international focus. This bank provides financing for trade between Japan and developing countries, performing the function of export-import banks run by governments in other countries (including the United States), although its participation is possibly greater.

Securities
Japan's securities markets increased their volume of dealings rapidly during the late 1980s, led by Japan's rapidly expanding securities firms. There were three categories of securities companies in Japan, the first consisting of the "Big Four" securities houses (among the six largest such firms in the world): Nomura, Daiwa, Nikko, and Yamaichi. The Big Four played a key role in international financial transactions and were members of the New York Stock Exchange. Nomura was the world's largest single securities firm; its net capital, in excess of US$10 billion in 1986, exceeded that of Merrill Lynch, Salomon Brothers, and Shearson Lehman combined. In 1986, Nomura became the first Japanese member of the London Stock Exchange. Nomura and Daiwa were primary dealers in the United States Treasury bond market. The second tier of securities firms contained ten medium-sized firms. The third tier consisted of all the smaller securities firms registered in Japan. Many of these smaller firms were affiliates of the Big Four, while some were affiliated with banks. In 1986 eighty-three of the smaller firms were members of the Tokyo Securities and Stock Exchange. Japan's securities firms derived most of their income from brokerage fees, equity and bond trading, underwriting, and dealing. Other services included the administration of trusts. In the late 1980s, a number of foreign securities firms, including Salomon Brothers and Merrill Lynch, became players in Japan's financial world.

Japanese insurance companies became important leaders in international finance in the late 1980s. More than 90% of the population owned life insurance and the amount held per person was at least 50% greater than in the United States. Many Japanese used insurance companies as savings vehicles. Insurance companies' assets grew at a rate of more than 20% per year in the late 1980s, reaching nearly US$694 billion in 1988. The life insurance companies moved heavily into foreign investments as deregulation allowed them to do so and as their resources increased through the spread of fully funded pension funds. These assets permitted the companies to become major players in international money markets. Nippon Life Insurance Company, the world's largest insurance firm, was reportedly the biggest single holder of United States Treasury securities in 1989.

Stock Exchange
The Tokyo Securities and Stock Exchange became the largest in the world in 1988, in terms of the combined market value of outstanding shares and capitalization, while the Osaka Stock Exchange ranked third after those of Tokyo and New York. Although there are eight stock exchanges in Japan, the Tokyo Securities and Stock Exchange represented 83% of the nation's total equity in 1988. Of the 1,848 publicly traded domestic companies in Japan at the end of 1986, about 80% were listed on the Tokyo Securities and Stock Exchange.

Two developments in the late 1980s helped in the rapid expansion of the Tokyo Securities and Stock Exchange. The first was a change in the financing of company operations. Traditionally large firms obtained funding through bank loans rather than capital markets, but in the late 1980s they began to rely more on direct financing. The second development came in 1986 when the Tokyo exchange permitted non-Japanese brokerage firms to become members for the first time. By 1988 the exchange had sixteen foreign members. The Tokyo Securities and Stock Exchange had 124 member companies in 1990. In 1990, five types of securities were traded on the Tokyo exchange: stocks, bonds, investment trusts, rights, and warrants alone.

Japan's stock market dealings exploded in the 1980s, with increased trading volume and rapidly rising stock prices. The trading recorded by the Nikkei 225 stock average, compiled by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun (Japan Economic Daily), grew from 6,850 in October 1982 to nearly 39,000 in early 1990. During one six-month period in 1986, total trade volume on the Tokyo exchange increased by 250% with wild swings in the Nikkei. After the plunge of the New York Stock Exchange in October 1987, the Tokyo average dropped by 15%, but there was a sharp recovery by early 1988. This was the height of the Japanese asset price bubble, which collapsed in the year 1990, and was followed by the lost decade.

title: Japanese financial system


text: User talk:86.135.152.167

title: User talk:86.135.152.167


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Harald Reinl

Harald Reinl (8 July 1908 in Bad Ischl, Austria – 9 October 1986 in Santa Cruz de Tenerife, Spain) was an Austrian film director. He is known for the films he made based on Edgar Wallace and Karl May books (see Karl May movies and Edgar Wallace movies) and also made mountain films, Heimatfilms, German war films and entries in such popular German film series as Dr. Mabuse, Jerry Cotton and Kommissar X. His directing output includes more than 60 titles. With his Edgar Wallace and Karl May adaptations, Reinl advanced to become one of the most successful directors in German cinema in the 1960s: with the four Karl May films he made between 1962 and 1965 alone, Reinl reached 32 million viewers.

A talented filmmaker in terms of his craft and an almost infallible sense of the audience's taste, which he always catered to, Reinl became one of the most successful directors of post-war West German cinema. Even though his orientation was always a commercial one and he rarely created anything artistically significant, his films left their mark on the most diverse genres of the German-language cinematic landscape.

Reinl began his career as an extra in the mountain films of Arnold Fanck. He worked as screenwriter on the film Tiefland directed by and starring Leni Riefenstahl. Reinl's first movie as director was the mountain film Mountain Crystal (1949). He was Oscar nominated for his documentary feature Chariots of the Gods (1970).

By the 1970s, he had semi-retired to the Canary Islands. In 1986, in his Tenerife retirement home, he was stabbed to death by Daniela Maria Delis, his alcoholic wife and a former actress from Czechoslovakia.

Director

 * Wilde Wasser (1937, short)
 * Osterskitour in Tirol (1939)
 * Mountain Crystal (1949)
 * Gesetz ohne Gnade (1950)
 * Nacht am Mont Blanc (1951)
 * The Crucifix Carver of Ammergau (1952)
 * Behind Monastery Walls (1952)
 * The Monastery's Hunter (1953)
 * Rose-Girl Resli (1954)
 * The Silent Angel (1954)
 * As Long as You Live (1955)
 * The Twins from Zillertal (1957)
 * Almenrausch and Edelweiss (1957)
 * The Green Devils of Monte Cassino (1958)
 * U 47 – Kapitänleutnant Prien (1958)
 *  (1958)
 * Der Frosch mit der Maske (1959)
 * Paradise for Sailors (1959)
 * We Will Never Part (1960)
 * The Terrible People (1960)
 * The Forger of London (1961)
 * The Return of Dr. Mabuse (1961)
 *  (1962)
 *  (1962)
 * Treasure of the Silver Lake (1962)
 * The White Spider (1963)
 * The Strangler of Blackmoor Castle (1963)
 * Room 13 (1964)
 * Apache Gold (1963)
 * Last of the Renegades (1964)
 * The Last Tomahawk (1965)
 * The Desperado Trail (1965)
 * The Sinister Monk (1965)
 * Die Nibelungen, Teil 1 - Siegfried (1966)
 * Die Nibelungen, Teil 2 - Kriemhilds Rache (1967)
 * The Blood Demon (1967)
 * The Valley of Death (1968)
 * Death and Diamonds (1968)
 * Death in the Red Jaguar (1968)
 * Pepe, der Paukerschreck (1969)
 * Dr. Fabian: Laughing Is the Best Medicine (1969)
 * Dead Body on Broadway (1969)
 * We'll Take Care of the Teachers (1970)
 * Chariots of the Gods (1970)
 * Tiger Gang (1971)
 * Who Laughs Last, Laughs Best (1971)
 * Holidays in Tyrol (1971)
 * Sie liebten sich einen Sommer (1972)
 * Cry of the Black Wolves (1972)
 * The Heath is Green (1972)
 * The Bloody Vultures of Alaska (1973)
 * Hubertus Castle (1973)
 * No Gold for a Dead Diver (1974)
 * The Hunter of Fall (1974)
 * Crazy Jungle Adventure (1982)

title: Harald Reinl


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Noel Buxton

Noel Edward Noel-Buxton, 1st Baron Noel-Buxton, PC (9 January 1869 – 12 September 1948) was a British Liberal and later Labour politician. He served as Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries under Ramsay MacDonald in 1924 and between 1929 and 1930.

Background and education
Born Noel Edward Buxton, the second son of Sir Thomas Buxton, 3rd Baronet and brother of Charles Roden Buxton, he was educated at Harrow and at Trinity College, Cambridge.

Political career
In 1896, Buxton acted as Aide-de-Camp to his father during his time as Governor of South Australia. He served on the Whitechapel Board of Guardians and Central Unemployment Body, and was a Member of the Home Office Departmental Committee on Lead Poisoning.

Buxton stood unsuccessfully for Ipswich in 1900. He was elected as Liberal Member of Parliament for Whitby in 1905, a seat he held until 1906. He was out of parliament until the January 1910 general election, when he was returned for Norfolk North. He joined the Labour Party in 1919 and in 1922 he successfully contested his Norfolk North seat as a Labour candidate. He continued to represent the constituency until 1930.

When Labour came to power under Ramsay MacDonald in January 1924, Buxton was appointed Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, with a seat in the cabinet, and sworn of the Privy Council. He remained as Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries until the government fell in December 1924. He resumed the post in 1929 (once again as a member of the cabinet) when Labour returned to office under MacDonald, and held it until 1930, when he was raised to the peerage as Baron Noel-Buxton, of Aylsham in the County of Norfolk. He changed his surname at this point to 'Noel-Buxton', so enabling that to be his title.

Balkans
The Balkans became a very important part of Buxton's career. In 1912, as Buxton had been warning, war broke out between the newly independent Balkan countries of Bulgaria, Greece, Montenegro and Serbia and the Ottoman Empire. Buxton was Chairman of the Balkan War Relief Committee. Shortly after the war had broken out, he visited Bulgaria with Mabel St Clair Stobart, founder of the Women's Sick and Wounded Convoy Corps. He helped her convince the government to agree to send an all-female medical unit to the war.

During the First World War (1914–1915), he went on a political mission with his brother Charles with the object of securing the neutrality of Bulgaria. While in Bucharest, Romania in October 1914, an assassination attempt was made on them, by Turkish activist, Hasan Tahsin. Buxton was wounded and his brother was shot through the lung. They both recovered and continued to have an interest in the region.

After their return, they published a book describing the region and its recent history, The War and the Balkans (London: George Allen and Unwin, 1915). It begins with these words:

"No one now denies the supreme importance of the Balkans as a factor in the European War. It may be that there were deep-seated hostilities between the Great Powers which would have, in any case, produced a European War and that if the Balkans had not offered the occasion, the occasion would have been found elsewhere. The fact remains that the Balkans did provide the occasion. A great part of the Serbo-Croat race found itself under the Austrian Empire, and with its increasing consciousness of nationality became more and more dissatisfied with its lot. The independent kingdom of Serbia for its part has taken active steps to spread abroad the idea of uniting its brothers under its own flag. It was Austria's ambition to crush this dangerous little State, the one rallying point of a vigorous and determined race."

Buxton's publications include: Europe and the Turks (1907), With the Bulgarian Staff (1913), Travels and Reflections (1929); and he was part-author of The Heart of the Empire (1902), Travel and Politics in Armenia (1914), The War and the Balkans (1915), Balkan Problems and European Peace (1919), and Oppressed Peoples and the League of Nations (1922).

Family
Noel was the great-grandson of the abolitionist, Sir Thomas Fowell Buxton he married Lucy Edith Pelham Burn in 1914. She succeeded him as Member of Parliament for Norfolk North in 1930. The couple had three sons and three daughters. Noel-Buxton died in September 1948, aged 79, and was succeeded in the barony by his eldest son, Rufus Alexander(1917–1980). Lady Noel-Buxton died in December 1960.

Noel Buxton Trust
Inspired by the abolitionism of his great-grandfather, he established the Noel Buxton Trust in 1919. This had a commitment to "a worldwide view of human welfare". The initial grant was made to the Fight the Famine Council, led by Eglantyne Jebb and his sister-in-law, Dorothy Buxton, which later became the Save the Children Fund. The charity funded the Family Rights Group, the Community Chaplaincy Association (working with ex-prisoners), and Excellent, a charity supporting sustainable development with subsistence communities in Africa.

title: Noel Buxton


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Beck-Ola

Beck-Ola is the second studio album by English guitarist Jeff Beck, and the first credited to the Jeff Beck Group. It was released in June 1969 by Epic Records in the United States and the following August by Columbia Records in the United Kingdom. The album peaked at No. 15 on the Billboard 200, and at No. 39 on the UK Albums Chart. The album's title puns on the name of the Rock-Ola jukebox company.

Background and content
The group released their first album Truth during 1968 and by the end of the year drummer Micky Waller was replaced by Tony Newman, as Jeff Beck wanted to take the music in a heavier direction and he viewed Waller as more of a finesse drummer in the style of Motown. Pianist Nicky Hopkins, who had also played on Truth, was asked to join the band full-time for his work in the studio.

Recording sessions for the album took place over six days in April 1969 – the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th and 19th. Two covers of Elvis Presley tunes were chosen, "All Shook Up" and "Jailhouse Rock", as well as "Girl From Mill Valley", an instrumental by and prominently featuring Hopkins. The remaining four tracks consist of band originals, with the instrumental "Rice Pudding" ending the album dramatically cold.

The album cover features a reproduction of Belgian surrealist artist René Magritte's The Listening Room. The tag "Cosa Nostra", Italian for "Our Thing", is written beside "Beck-Ola" on the back cover to the original vinyl issue.

Following the sessions for this album, the Jeff Beck Group toured the United States. They were scheduled to play Woodstock and are listed on posters promoting the festival, but by then internal friction had reached the breaking point and both Ronnie Wood and Rod Stewart were out of the band. Stewart and Wood would form the Faces with members of the Small Faces in 1969, while Hopkins played Woodstock with Jefferson Airplane, joined Quicksilver Messenger Service, and toured the world with the Rolling Stones in 1971, 1972 and 1973. Beck himself would be out of action by December due to an automobile accident.

Reception and legacy
In a contemporary review for The Village Voice, music critic Robert Christgau was unimpressed by the album and facetiously remarked that Stewart and Beck had encouraged Hopkins' overblown playing. At the time, Beck commented on the album cover the impossibility of coming up with anything original, and that Beck-Ola indeed was not. Although a short album at half an hour, it is regarded, along with its predecessor, as a seminal work of heavy metal due to its use of blues toward a hard rock approach and the squaring off of Beck's guitar against Stewart's vocals, duplicated the same year by Beck's good friend Jimmy Page with his singer Robert Plant in Led Zeppelin.

On 10 October 2006, Legacy Recordings remastered and reissued the album for compact disc with four bonus tracks, all of which had been previously unreleased. Included were two early takes of the Presley covers, one done at Abbey Road Studios in January, a jam on "Sweet Little Angel" by B.B. King done the previous November with the Waller edition of the band, and a song intended as a single by producer Mickie Most but never issued.

Track listing

 * Sides one and two were combined as tracks 1–7 on CD reissues.

Personnel
The Jeff Beck Group
 * Jeff Beck – guitars, backing vocals on "Throw Down a Line"
 * Rod Stewart – lead vocals
 * Nicky Hopkins – piano and organ
 * Ronnie Wood – bass guitar
 * Tony Newman – drums

Additional personnel
 * Micky Waller – drums on "Sweet Little Angel"
 * Mickie Most – producer

title: Beck-Ola


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User:Reginald Benbow

Reginald Benbow was born November 2nd, 1989, in Baltimore Maryland.

title: User:Reginald Benbow


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Talk:Blawgers

So far, so good. I like how the unnecessary has been pared away - I started the Legal subsection of Blog, which was narrowed appropriately and then partly copied and reclipped here. I like what's been done. I would also note that "Prawf" as in law Prof has some traction, due in large part to the PrawfsBlawg but predating it. Most other neologisms, as noted, have not been successful to date.--Eh Nonymous 20:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Blawgers