text:
Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Airport traffic pattern.jpg

Airport_traffic_pattern.jpg

Image created by ericg for traffic pattern. Clear, attractive, and nicely illustrates the concept.

 * Nominate and support. - — ceejayoz ★ 23:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Clear, unfortunately low resolution compared to other FP diagrams. Phoenix2 23:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * ericg has uploaded a larger version. — ceejayoz ★ 23:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Support - My first thought was to oppose because I had to read the article to determine that upwind, crosswind, downwind etc were in reference to "legs" of the trip regardless of wind direction. However, alongside the information in the article, this picture adds significantly to its effectiveness, and quite well done.  CapeCodEph 07:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I say it every time a diagram/chart comes up for nomination. I just don't like them. Not for FP's anyway.  Maybe we need a Featured Diagram kind of thing.  I just don't see diagrams as striking or anywhere near as beautiful as some of our FP's. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  02:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, diagrams are able to become FPs on wikipedia because they "add significantly" to an article. Indeed, they may not be as striking as beautiful landscapes, but until a featured diagram category is available, opposing valid FP candidates on the grounds of "just don't like them" seems in poor taste. CapeCodEph 07:12, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of having a new section or page for featured diagrams, but I don't see how that would help you. If you don't like diagrams, wouldn't you then vote against them on the "Featured Diagram Candidates" page? I you don't want to see them, I'm sure you can easily avert your eyes from the respective nominations. Featured pictures already has its own "drawings and diagrams" section. Or is this related to the featuring of pictures on the Main Page? If so, it is not at all clear that featured diagrams would not be shown on the Main Page. In any case, we could already choose to treat drawings differently on the Main Page or the POTD using the existing tools. So, please explain how separating diagrams to a different page or section here would address whatever problem you have with them.--Eloquence* 13:09, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * See the discussion on the Talk page for more about this topic. The way I look at it is like this...To me, graphs/charts/diagrams are in a totally different category as pictures.  I don't think that ANY of the FP's that are charts stand up as equal to any of the other images that have been deemed FP's.  Now I know people don't like this stance as a FP is really only supposed to illustrate its topic, but that's kind of the reason I think a Featured Diagrams index would be a good idea.  I wouldn't necessarily vote no against a chart if I knew all it was being compared to was other charts.  I just think comparing a chart to a picture is ridiculous as they are not the same thing.  I certainly feel that they need an opportunity to be featured though, just not as featured pictures.  It's possible for charts/diagrams to be interesting and captivating and thoroughly illustrate their topic, but as far as FP's are concerned, I think we need to take into account its artistic, striking, captivating value as well as how well it illustrates its topic. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  16:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Would you take someone's FPC vote seriously if they voted "oppose" on every butterfly photo because they don't like 'em? — ceejayoz ★ 19:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, if it was a bad photo. I'm not trying to cause a problem here...I'm simply stating that I don't think charts/diagrams meet the requirements of being FP's, and i'll continue to vote as such until I see one I feel is deserving. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  20:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. It is a most delightful contribution... and I love those shadows! Enochlau 15:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. comment: Scotty, ceejayoz was asking if you'd take someone seriously who rejected butterfly photos purely because they were butterflies, quality being completely ignored. You responded 'if it was a bad photo' - which isn't an answer to the question. ericg ✈ 22:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah...I see what you mean. That's a totally different story though.  There's a big difference in voting no because you simply don't like a particular image, and voting no because you don't think that image meets the proper criteria.--ScottyBoy900Q ∞  22:47, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Support A simple diagram to show a simple concept that may be hard to understand for some folks, especially those not familiar with the subject. bjelleklang 23:00, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Support but why not PNG? —jiy (talk) 22:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Very nice image; I like how everything is nice and clean. --Bash 00:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

discussion
Raven4x4x 05:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: I think the point here is that diagrams do meet the proper criteria. ericg ✈ 23:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Sure...some might. No one's refuting that. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  23:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * And, as I asked you before, which of these criteria does this one not meet? — ceejayoz ★ 12:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Specifically...the requirement that it be pleasing to the eye, but also those are not the only criteria it needs to meet. Conveniently since I made this suggestion, the definition of what a FP is located on the WP:FP page has been changed, but still includes these criteris: that it be particularly beautiful, shocking, and/or impressive. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  14:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You seem to have omitted the bits about it including diagrams, and including informational stuff too. The criteria on that page certainly don't state that they must be all of "beautiful, shocking, impressive and informational". — ceejayoz ★ 15:37, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, but that's not what you asked...I didn't omit anything. You asked what I had specifically wrong with THIS image and I don't feel it meets any of the criteris i listed in my last post. And the way it reads now...it does make it seem that the image needs to meet  all of those criteria. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  16:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Will you be voting Featured_picture_candidates/Yarra_Panorama and Featured_picture_candidates/Corn_cobs down, then, on the basis that they are not shocking? How many currently featured pictures fulfill all of those criteria? — ceejayoz ★ 16:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Are you saying you consider them to be not shocking? I believe I voted "yes" for them because I feel they adequately fulfill the requirements. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  18:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd say it takes a rather large stretch of the definition of "shocking" to find a photo of ears of corn "shocking", yes. If ears of corn are shocking, anything is. — ceejayoz ★  18:45, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, by the definition provided on the FP page, you must seem to find something particularly "shocking" about a diagram of little planes flying around or you wouldn't be voting to support it. I wouldn't be so hung up on that one word...when put together with the rest of the definition, thats what makes a FP worthy of its status. (Perhaps if we want to continue this discussion we should move it off this page? It's starting to not so much reflect this one individual candidate)--ScottyBoy900Q ∞ 23:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, by the definition provided on the FP page, you must seem to find something particularly "shocking" No, you're still misreading me. I'm the one who believes that the criteria are "one of", not "all of the above", not you. Thusly, I'm fine with the corn photo.  You, however, are arguing that a picture must fulfill all of those criteria, in which case your support vote for the corn photo seems inappropriate. — ceejayoz ★  23:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * My vote in support seems inappropriate because I think it meets all the criteria???...yeah...that makes a lot of sense. And I certainly DO think it should meet ALL of the criteria.  If it didn't there would be hundreds upon hundreds of FP's as some would certainly meet one criteria and not another.  They would also be worthless as there would be so many of them.  Using the word and to me indicates they should have to be all of those things.  If i'm misreading you, try to explain your position a little better please.  You're the one who seems to be focusing on the word "shocking," I see all of the qualities listed above in those candidates not only that one. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  02:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Your position seems to be that it must fulfil all of those criteia. My objection is that I find it difficult to apply "shocking" to a photo of corn, yet it is certainly still featured picture quality. — ceejayoz ★ 03:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you aren't understanding this point ScottyBoy. You feel that a featured picture should meet all of the criteria: "beautiful, shocking, impressive and informative". We are just wondering how Image:Corncobs.jpg, which you supported for featured picture, meets the 'shocking' criteria. That's all we are asking: for you to explain to us how you think the corn photo is shocking. Raven4x4x 04:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you people are so focused on the 'shocking' factor. As I mentioned in my last post, its not me who keeps bringing up the word shocking. I never pointed that factor out as the most important reason i like that picture. Also, as a whole, i think the image collectively meets all of the criteria. It's an awesome photograph.  It's colorful, vibrant, balanced, and...surprisingly beautiful (which if you look up the definition of shocking, surprising is a key part of the definition).  If you would like to continue the discussion of that candidate, I suggest we discuss it under that image instead of this one.  The issue brought up here was the one of being a diagram, so let's get back to that so this image isn't bogged down with talk of corn. See the discussion here  for that issue.  Lets try to keep the talk on the voting page geared towards the images. --ScottyBoy900Q ∞  04:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


text: User:Weirdstapler

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Weirdstapler


text:
Talk:Philippe I, Duke of Orléans

Older
''Philippe had a naturally feminine disposition, and this was encouraged by his mother, to wear dresses, makeup, and to enjoy feminine pursuits. This was simple pragmaticism on the part of Anne.''

I don't get it. David.Monniaux 23:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm unable to find another source for the assertion that Henrette d'Angleterre was not poisoned, that this was "disproved". The statement needs to be supported. Rogermexico 23:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

''I have studied French history for years, and I think it is disgraceful that this page does not reference his overt homosexuality. Rarely was a man of his era so "out." Agrippina Minor

"Put out," would be more appropriate. The poor kid didn't have a chance...216.78.100.182 (talk) 07:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Excerpts from article:

''' ***His inclination toward homosexuality had not been discouraged, with the hope of reducing any threat he may have posed to his older brother. Reportedly, Cardinal Mazarin even arranged for the de-flowering of Philippe at the hands of his own nephew, Philip Julian Mancini. . Even once married, he reportedly carried on open romantic affairs with German nobles, with no regard to either of his two wives. ***

''' ***Philippe's favourites, invariably younger, handsome men, would dominate contemporary and historical commentaries about his role at court. Among them one man stands out, Philip of Lorraine-Armagnac, the chevalier de Lorraine, who has been described as "insinuating, brutal and devoid of scruple". According to Dirk van der Cruysse, he...   "...was also the worst enemy of the latter's two wives. As greedy as a vulture, this cadet of the French branch of the House of Lorraine had, by the end of the 1650s, hooked Monsieur like a harpooned whale. The young prince loved him with a passion that worried Madame Henrietta and the court bishop, Cosnac, but it was plain to the King that, thanks to the attractive face and sharp mind of the good-looking cavalier, he would have his way with his brother."   ***In January 1670, Philippe's wife had prevailed upon the King to imprison the chevalier, first near Lyon, then in the Mediterranean island-fortress of Château d'If. Finally, he was banished to Rome. However, by February, the Duke of Orléans' protests and pleas persuaded the King to restore him to his brother's entourage.***'''

 ***Her letters record how willingly she gave up sharing Philippe's bed at his request after their children's births, and how unwillingly she endured the presence of his minions in their household, which caused the couple to quarrel.***

''' ***Philippe enjoyed court life, gambling, chasing young men, and ceremony.***

How much more do you need???

Frania W. (talk) 14:11, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Gallery
It looks odd to have a separate heading for a 'gallery' - this doesn't seem to add anything to the article. Fine for pictures to be included but no need for own heading Contaldo80 (talk) 21:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sources and citations
This article lacks primary sources. The biography by Nancy Barker is good; however, Mitford's monograph The Sun King is largely anecdotal.

There are significant lacunae in this article, i.e. there is not mention of the Philippe's participation in the Battle of Cassel (1677), which was lauded at the time.

Bibliographic references do not follow any recognizable standard and need to be edited to an appropriate bibliographic standard. Also, there is a link to a reference to a Google book, yet there is no title or author given. The bibliographic link to the Château de Saint-Cloud is invalid; accordingly, new sourcing is needed.

The general style of the article needs editing with some sections rewritten. Also, the caption of the family portrait, called the Olympe royal contains inaccurate information: the work is oil on canvas, not a mural; it was commissioned by Louis XIV, not by Philippe; and, the date of the work is 1670. The artist was Jean Nocret.

--E. Lighthart (talk) 15:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I took out a few sentences under legacy because it wasn't about his legacy at all. I hope this is ok since its not just a small revision.Bolinda (talk) 05:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I, for one,would like to be apprised of the resources which support that Philippe I's mother and Cardinal Mazzarin encouraged him to be effeminate and a homosexual. This seems highly implausible and even if true, should be documented rather fully, instead of being established based on a vague allusion to Dumas, a novelist. There is a lack of information concerning the sexually charged nature of the royal court. Whether we like it or not, sexuality played a very important role in this particular lineage - from the excesses of the grandfather and his sister, to the debauching of the legal father (Louis XIII) by said grandfather through exposure to orgies, to the ensuing pathological asexuality of Louis XIII, and the subsequent cuckolding of the king, and the "inevitable" homosexuality and blatant effeminacy of Philippe, we must realize that sexuality played a powerful part in the forming of this dynasty. All are convinced that Louis XIII was not Philippe I's father, since that asexual personage only had sexual relations with Anne of Austria on very few occasions and even took years to consummate their marriage. Although the parentage may never be established, many believe Louis XIV and Philippe I's father to be Mazzarin himself, as he was Anne of Austria's lover. So, whoever is most active in authoring this article, please step forward with some references and resources. NB I have often contributed to articles, or made comments. Returning later, I have remarked that while my articles stand, all of my comments have been deleted from the Wikipedia database and are nowhere to be found. Please have the decency to not delete or alter my comments. Thank you. VaniNY

 * Suggest you start with the references cited in the text and examine whether you think they are robust enough or if we need to add more. Can't help you on the second point about comments being deleted - doubt that contributors to this article are to blame. In doesn't help that you don't sign the comments you make. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:43, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I always thought that Wikipedia was an online encyclopedia, not a gossip-laden data base. It would be so nice to stop wanting to base most articles of French royalty on what was happening below their belt.  Are these supposed to be historical or pornographic articles ?
 * Some of VaniNY's assertions are as unbased, or rather based on gossip, such as *the debauching of the legal father (Louis XIII) by said grandfather through exposure to orgies...*; *All are convinced that Louis XIII was not Philippe I's father, since that asexual personage only had sexual relations with Anne of Austria on very few occasions...* Who are *all*? Ditto *many believe Louis XIV and Philippe I's father to be Mazzarin himself...* There are always many to believe this or that in the course of History.  For instance, many believe that Hitler escaped to S. America in 1945. Does this make it true that Hitler escaped to S. America?
 * My suggestion is that VaniNY follow Contaldo's suggestions.
 * Frania W. (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Birth and Death Data
There is a conflict in the two birth dates listed in the article. Was he born on July 21st or September 21st?
 * All sources I've seen say 21 September.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:07, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Miscarriages
Is it necessary to mention all of Henrietta Anne's miscarriages in his list of children? It looks unprofessional and should be removed. What do other editors say?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:07, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed them as article already mentions her four miscarriages which is sufficient.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I see nothing wrong with your change, Jeanne. Having each one listed did seem rather tedious. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:16, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Finally !!! Frania W. (talk) 20:08, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh bonjour Frania! Yes, the list of miscarriages looked awful. I also think his death shouldn't be mentioned immediately after his birth, but rather at the bottom of the page in a separate section. Comments?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Bonjour Jeanne & Kansas Bear! You are right about his death being mentioned so early.  As for miscarriages, unless they were of historical importance in the life of a couple, I see no reason to have them in the list of bambinos.  Frania W. (talk) 14:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Grammatically incorrect sentence
"Liselotte acted as a mother to Philippe's children by Minette and maintained correspondence with the two their last days. Marie Louise however would always be Philippe's favourite child."

Um... HUH? 24.189.87.160 (talk) 06:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

On lengthy sections on his children
Comparing the short novels for each in en:wiki to more concise treatment of his children in fr:wiki
 * == Descendance ==

Avec Henriette d'Angleterre
Il se marie le 31 mars 1661 avec sa cousine germaine Henriette d'Angleterre avec qui il eut :
 * 1) Marie Louise d'Orléans (°27 mars 1662 †12 février 1689), devient reine des Espagnes et des Indes en épousant Charles II de Habsbourg. Ils n'eurent pas de descendance à cause de l'état de Charles.
 * 2) Philippe Charles d'Orléans, duc de Valois (°16 juillet 1664 †8 décembre 1666), mort en bas âge.
 * 3) Anne Marie d'Orléans (°27 août 1669 †26 août 1728) épouse le 10 avril 1684 Victor-Amédée II de Savoie et devient ainsi reine de Sardaigne. Elle hérita par sa mère de l'aînesse de la succession royale britannique (succession jacobite), qu'elle transmit à sa descendance dans la maison de Savoie. De cette ligne sont donc issus nombre de princes italiens et espagnols.

Avec la Palatine
Son second mariage, le 21 décembre 1671 avec la princesse Palatine, Élisabeth Charlotte Wittelsbach von Pfalz, avec qui il eut :
 * 1) Alexandre Louis d'Orléans, duc de Valois (°1673 †1676), mort en bas âge.
 * 2) Philippe d'Orléans (°2 août 1674 †1723), duc de Chartres, puis, ayant hérité des titres de son père, duc d'Orléans, et régent de France à la mort de son oncle Louis XIV. De cette ligne sont issus (entre autres) Philippe Égalité, le roi Louis-Philippe et tous les prétendants orléanistes au trône de France.
 * 3) Élisabeth Charlotte d'Orléans (°13 septembre 1676 †1744), devint duchesse de Lorraine et de Bar en épousant le duc Léopold Ier puis régente des deux duchés de 1729 à 1737. Ils  furent les parents de François Ier, empereur du Saint-Empire, et donc les grands-parents paternels de la reine Marie-Antoinette (°1755 †1793). De cette ligne sont aussi issus Napoléon II, fils de Napoléon Ier et de l'archiduchesse Marie-Louise d'Autriche ainsi que tous les Habsbourg-Lorraine.

--Frania W. (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I was bold enough to remove two entire sections that completely ignored the subject of the article. I did not wish to meddle with the section about "Philippe's marriage" because I did not have enough patience to understand who are all the Philippes mentioned there. Unfortunatly, articles about Bourbons and their relatives are very prone to trivial and irrelevant information. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 23:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The First?
The ordinal seems to be mentioned only in the title of the article. The lead calls him Philippe de France and the infobox simply Philippe. If he was Philippe Ire, why are we ignoring that? If he wasn't, why is the ordinal part of the title of the article? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 22:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Homosexual?
I might sound naive, but how could he be homosexual if he married two women and fathered children by both? Doesn't that make him bisexual? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

 * A bisexual is one who "likes" both, which his father Louis XIII may have been, not to say probably was. On the other hand, Philippe d'Orléans liked only men, which would make him a homosexual; however, as the king of France's only brother, he could not die without leaving posterity, so he had to have children, whether he liked women or not: he accordingly "fulfilled his marital duties" to both his wives, the first one, Madame Lucifer (his nickname for her), whom he disliked wholeheartedly from the start, the second whom he grew to like as a friend. Unless we know him to have had mistresses, it would be difficult to classify him as a bisexual.
 * --Frania W. (talk) 12:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It makes sense but I still fail to realise how a homosexual man could bring himself to have sexual intercourse with two women enough times to father seven children. Perhaps his wives satisfied his need for women, while he sought paramours for male love. This is all speculation on our part, of course. How do biographies describe him? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 12:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * As I was adding the following to my comment above, we had an edit conflict
 * - remember that all marriages of royal family members & high nobility were nothing but political moves, i.e. arranged/forced marriages where love & sexual inclination had no part -
 * All books & articles I have read on him describe him as a "homosexual"; I have never seen ""bisexual". According to la Palatine herself, it was quite a job to get him to fulfill his marital duties, and it was with relief that they decided "d'un commun accord" to stop sharing a bed, but I have no time to look up her correspondence on the subject.
 * --Frania W. (talk) 13:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It would be nice to have that explanation in the article to avoid confusing readers. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 13:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But the explanation should be succinct so as not to get into another spill such as was done with Louis XVI phimosis which filled 1/4 of his article.
 * I really have no time right now to do it. I trust you can do it.
 * P.S. In French texts, he is described as "un homosexuel notoire".
 * --Frania W. (talk) 14:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

This biography of Louis XIII calls Philippe "bisexual, with a powerful inclination towards ineffectual relations with men". But the rest of the paragraph is even more interesting; the author suggests that Anne encouraged Louis XIV to be masculine and Philippe to be feminine so that Philippe would not pose threat to Louis XIV like Gaston had posed threat to Louis XIII. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 15:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Problem is that labels such as bisexual and homosexual are relatively modern. People would not have recognised such descriptions in the 16th and 17th century. Instead more common terms include sodomite. I do not think it unusual, however, for a man who is essentially attracted to men to bring himself to have sexual intercourse with a woman when required. This was the standard practice for hundred of years - for many men there was little alternative or choice but to do so (otherwise face death, being ostracised, or ridicule). I also think we need to be careful about using "masculine" and "femminine" as terms to describes sexuality. One does not need to be effeminate or femmine to be attracted to the same sex. Contaldo80 (talk) 16:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Problem is that labels such as bisexual and homosexual are relatively modern. People would not have recognised such descriptions in the 16th and 17th century." Many words we use today would not have been recognised by people who lived in the 16th and 17th century. The article is written for 21st-century people, not for those who died centuries ago. "One does not need to be effeminate or femmine to be attracted to the same sex." Of course not. But Philippe was effeminate and was attracted to the same sex. The question is whether (or how much) he was also attracted to the opposite sex. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 16:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * He was not attracted to the opposed sex, which was not the case of the greatest love of his life, the Chevalier de Lorraine, who went both way.
 * He had a total of seven children with two different wives, and there is not a single mistress to be found - no bastard child, which would be the key to the enigma.
 * Again, I would not call him a "bisexual", but would go with the description of "homosexuel notoire".
 * --Frania W. (talk) 19:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * What does the "notoire" bit translate as? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "notorious", "of common knowledge", "well-known"
 * --Frania W. (talk) 13:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "I still fail to realise how a homosexual man could bring himself to have sexual intercourse with two women enough times to father seven children."

Well, that's royal duty for you. Think about all the married royal couples throughout the ages, very few of them genuinely loved or were even attracted to each other. I'm pretty sure their task of having to have sex with each other when they did not feel anything for one another was just as hard as a gay man having to bring himself to have sex with a woman that he was not attracted to in a sexual way. But they did it solely for the purpose of procreation, not recreation. It was part of the "job", if you will. Besides, when Phillipe felt he had fulfilled his "duty", he made his wives sleep in a separate bed. Pretty obvious that the dude didn't enjoy having sexual relations with women. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Unhistorical and Anachronistic: The use of a Particular Restrictive Sexual Label in This Context
We must distinguish between homosexual behaviour and the homosexual category. The binary and narrow labels of heterosexual vs. homosexual are 19th century creations. Sexual acts and there meaning to the person and society depend to a great extent, upon specific historical problems and outlooks of a culture.The homosexual how we perceive it today, as a inherent sexual category/condition/identity, is a legal and medical construction that did not exist prior to 1869. I do not say that homosexual behaviour and connected personality traits did not exist in 18th century France, but it did not have the content and meaning that the quite newly coined term has today.

 * Anachronism - is a chronological inconsistency in some arrangement, especially a juxtaposition of persons, events, objects, or customs from different periods of time. The most common type of anachronism is an object misplaced in time.
 * For example (Ancient Greece):
 * Ancient Greece is often cited as an example of a civilization in which homosexuality was accepted as normal, even encouraged. This is not quite true. All males were expected to make love to women, to marry, and to sire a family, whether or they had a male lover or not. Moreover, love and sex between adult males was thought to be a bit ridiculous. The norm was for an adult male to have a relationship that lasted several years with an adolescent boy. When the boy reached maturity, he, then, was also expected to take a young lover. (Erich Goode, Deviant Behavior, p.193-194) https://www.pearsonhighered.com/product/Goode-Deviant-Behavior-9th-Edition/9780205748075.html, https://www.routledge.com/Deviant-Behavior-10th-Edition/Goode/p/book/9780205899661
 * “As is well known, to define it simply as a “homosexual relationship” (as was customary in the past) would be to falsify reality, attributing to the Greeks a concept which did not exist in their world. Today, it is generally accepted among scholars that an adult man in ancient Greece could with, little or no risk of social disapproval, express sexual desire for another male, so as long as the desired male was an adolescent (pais), whom the adult loved within the context of the socially codified and positively valued relationship which we call pederastic. This kind of relationship took place, then, between and “active” adult and a “passive” boy, though by “activity” and “passivity”- this is an important aspect of the question-the Greeks understood not necessarily and not only sexual roles, but also and above all intellectual and moral roles.” (Andrew Lear and Eva Cantarella, Images of Ancient Greek Pederasty Boys Were Their Gods, p. 1-2) https://www.amazon.com/Images-Ancient-Greek-Pederasty-Classical/dp/0415564042
 * “In Ancient Greece, homosexuality was described as pederasty, and was an integral part of life of the polis because it was a culture that allowed the norm to function. It therefore did not preclude relations with women, which was based on the reproductive order, and was based upon the division between an active principle and passive principle: a free man and a slave, a boy and a mature man and so on. Its function was, in other words, initiatory. Only the men had the right to practice pederasty, and the hierarchy precluded any equality between the partners. But a homosexual who refused to have anything to do with women was regarded as abnormal because he infringed the rules of the polis and the family institution.” (Elisabeth Roudinesco, Our Dark Side A History of Perversion, p. 33) https://www.timeshighereducation.com/books/our-dark-side-a-history-of-perversion/409986.article
 * For example (Modern History):
 * “It is important to note that the late nineteenth-century medical conception of homosexuality was constructed in France without the benefit of the word homosexual. Claude Courouve has shown that the word (homosexualitat) was neologism coined by a German-speaking doctor, K.M. Benkert in 1869. The term circulated in German medical circles for a number of years and did not become current in French as homosexualite until the late 1890s.Until that time, and many years afterward, French doctors discussed male same-sex love in ways that built on older words or medical models. Before coining the word invert in 1882, the two favored words were pederasty and sodomy. Pederasty seems to have been regularly used to refer to the seduction of boys by adult males, and was a staple term of forensic medicine, but by the end of the century was used occasionally in connection with adult homosexuality, provoking objections from etymological purists like Andre Gide. Sodomy had an imprecise and old-fashioned biblical quality that made it more popular in literature than science. Once invert began to be applied to adult males, sodomy was used more exclusively to refer to bestiality. The term uranist or urning, coined by the German jurist Karl-Heinrich Ulrichs in the early 1860s never caught on in French, nor did the concept of the third sex, which was popular among German sex reformers.” (Robert Nye, Masculinity and Male Codes of Honor in Modern France, p. 108) http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520215108, https://liberalarts.oregonstate.edu/users/robert-nye
 * “The sexological ‘discovery’ of the homosexual in the late nineteen century is therefore obviously a crucial moment. It gave a name, an aetiology, and potentially the embryos of an identity. It marked off a special homosexual type of person, with distinctive physiognomy, tastes and potentialities. Did, therefore, the sexologists create the homosexual? This certainly seems to be the position of some historians. Michel Foucault and Lillian Faderman appear at times to argue, in an unusual alliance, that it was the categorisation of the sexologists that made ‘the homosexual’ and ‘the lesbian’ possible. Building on Ulrichs belief that homosexuals were a third sex, a woman’s soul in a man’s body, Westphal was able to invent the ‘contrary sexual feeling’ Ellis the ‘invert’ defined by a congenital anomaly, and Hirschfeld the ‘intermediate sex’; the sexologists definitions, embodied in medical interventions, ‘created’ the homosexual. Until sexology gave them a label, there was only the half-life of an amorphous sense of self. The homosexual identity as we know it is therefore a production of social categorisation, whose fundamental aim and effect was regulation and control. To name was to imprison.” (Jeffrey Weeks, Sexuality and Its Discontents Meanings, Myths and Modern Sexualities, p. 92-93).
 * “The word homosexuality did not exist prior to 1869, when it appeared in a pamphlet that took the form of an open letter to the German minister of justice (the German word is homosexualitat). A new penal code for the North German Federation was being drafted, and a debate had arisen over whether to retain the section of the Prussian criminal code which made sexual contact between persons of the same gender a crime. The pamphlet’s author, Karl Maria Kertbeny (1824-82), was one of several writers and jurists who were beginning to develop the concept of sexual orientation. This idea-that some individuals’ sexual attraction for members of the same sex was an inherent and an unchanging aspect of their personality -was radically new. Thousands of years of record history and the rise and fall of sophisticated and complex societies occurred before homosexuality existed as a word or even as an idea.” (Francis Mark Mondimore, A Natural History of Homosexuality, p.3) https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/content/natural-history-homosexuality
 * The categories we create and how we think about these categories are fundamentally important—and are often open to misinterpretation. (Charlene L. Muehlenhard, Categories and sexuality Pages 101-107) https://www.jstor.org/stable/3813594?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * Mind Your Words — They Have Meaning!... or may just obscure! Doctoral historian (talk) 23:18, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Succession in infobox
There has been some dispute about considering the dukedom a form of royal office for the Dukes of Orléans. As a result, we have infoboxes that look like this...

I think it would be more correct to have it listed as a title, as I do not consider the dukedom a separate fief, but rather a peerage under the king of France. We don't have this sort of treatment for Charles, Prince of Wales.

What do you guys think? Векочел (talk) 03:41, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

 * I think that having the succession info box makes it easier for readers to know who there predecessor and successor were and it also makes it easier to know how Louis Philippe I was related to The House of Bourbon. But I’ll respect the consensus.  Orson12345 (Talk • Contribs) 21:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to believe that these two situations are different. The title of Prince of Wales is granted to an heir apparent, but the Dukedom of Orléans (for much of its history) has been a hereditary title passed down from father to son, making it a little more tricky to handle. During the Middle Ages/early Renaissance, the duchy was attached to territorial holdings, but as time went on, it became more of a courtesy title more than anything else. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:33, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Sexuality in lead
The lead currently contains the sentence, “Although Philippe was open about his bisexuality and freely acted effeminately, he married twice and fathered several children.” This is problematic in a couple ways. First, neither the article nor the cited source makes any mention of bisexuality, open or otherwise. The article does state Philippe was open about his male lovers, and may have had a mistress. Inferring a sexual orientation from that is dubious.

Second, there is no reason to juxtapose Philippe’s sexuality (whether we make claims about bisexuality or use more supported language about having male lovers) with his marriages and children. The Mitford source this is cited to says, “In spite of being one of history’s most famous sodomites, Monsieur had two wives, a mistress, and eleven legitimate children…” While Mitford obviously found it humorous for “a sodomite” to marry and father children, it seems unnecessary to incorporate that prejudice into this article by drawing a contrast between his sexuality and his progeny the way the current text does.--Trystan (talk) 22:44, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

 * You must remember that sexuality was not defined in the same way as it is now. Because Philippe never outright stated himself to be a homosexual, we really don't know his true sexuality. The best label we can use for the purposes of this article is "bisexual," seeing as he indeed had male lovers but also married to two women and had at least eleven legitimate offspring. As for your other concern, I wouldn't call it "prejudice." By principle, a man having a preference for male lovers would make it challenging to have multiple children, no? However, I do concede that it is not very encyclopedic, so I have reworded it Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "By principle, a man having a preference for male lovers would make it challenging to have multiple children, no?" Not at all, as this subject and many other examples of men in history with male lovers who had children demonstrate. However, I think your rewording takes care of this aspect. Thanks.
 * "The best label we can use for the purposes of this article is 'bisexual'" The best label would be none at all. The body of the article does not attempt to anachronistically impose either a gay or bisexual orientation on the subject, but appropriately describes same-sex and opposite-sex activity without inferring an orientation. The lead should not do so either. It can just say he was married twice, fathered six children, and had several male lovers.--Trystan (talk) 22:52, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying. I misunderstood you before. I have changed the lead to read: "Philippe was open about his preference for male lovers and freely acted effeminately, and he married twice and fathered several children." However, this sentence feels very wordy/chunky to me, but I cannot think of a way to cleanly split it without having the lead sound awkward. Any ideas? Unlimitedlead (talk) 00:22, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I've taken a pass at improving the flow of the paragraph. Please feel free to revise or revert.--Trystan (talk) 03:14, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Portrayal in media
The very famous movie The Man in the Iron Mask (1998 film) is missing from the list. Aminabzz (talk) 10:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Philippe I, Duke of Orléans


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/BillyH

 * ''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a successful request for adminship. Please do not modify it.

BillyH
[ Vote here] (27/5/5) ending 23:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

is a great guy. Kate's edit tool puts him at 2,459 edits; he has been around since March 3rd, 2004, and that is a low number of edits for that amount of time, but please note that he has the capability and personality to be an admin. He, in my opinion, would be great if made an admin. --WikiFanaticTalk
 * Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here.
 * Wow, I'm honoured! I accept. BillyH 23:49, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Support
 * 1) Of course, I support. As long as he accepts the nomination, of course. --WikiFanaticTalk 23:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]] Extreme pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcaniconiosic support!  Disclaimer:    This vote is not intended to be offensive. Additionally, this vote should not be used for controlling operations at a nuclear power plant, bank, airport, or hospital. You may not sue me in a COURT OF LAW in Trenton, New Jersey, for any damages this vote may cause you.       --Phroziac(talk)[[Image:Flag_of_Phyzech_Republic.svg|25px]] 23:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Strong Support. but delist this as per the new RfA rules. R  e  dwolf24  (talk) 23:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) De-What? Support. El_C 23:49, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Support CambridgeBayWeather 00:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Support --Hoovernj 00:27, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Name sounds familiar. --Merovingian (t) (c) 02:44, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) Support. A year is more than long enough.  He has been very rational and civil in all the discussions I've checked, and is very respectful of others.  These are the prime qualities we should seek in admin candidates.  We don't want ALL admins involved in policy discussions.  Should be a most excellent admin.    Un  focused  06:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 9) Support having taken a look at his contributions Tintin 13:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 10) Good one. Hey, everyone, vote for him! David Gerard 14:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 11) Support. He's been around a long time and is always civil. Adminship really should be no big deal. Rje 16:03, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 12) [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]] Extreme exclamation mark support! (The cabal made me do it) --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 16:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 13) Support.  Ral  315   WS  17:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 14) Extreme Knightmare-fan support! --TimPope 17:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 15) That's hot. Mike H (Talking is hot) 17:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 16) Support. The purpose of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedia, and only the main namespace directly serves that end. I agree that it is important for an administrator to demonstrate a wide spectrum of interaction, but I believe that BillyH has more than met that requirement. We need administrators from all parts of the spectrum of positive interaction, not everyone has to be a wikipolitican editing primarily outside of the main namespace. --Gmaxwell 17:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 17) Support. Interactions with him suggest that he knows policy well enough to be an admin, so I'm not concerned about the lack of WP namespace edits. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 17:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 18) Extreme Mexican Support!. Just make sure you get involved in more discussions from now on. Tito xd (?!?) 20:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 19) Support, the editcountis crowd needs to chill. -Greg Asche (talk) 20:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 20) Strong support. Andre ( talk ) 21:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 21) Support. James F. (talk) 23:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 22) Support, good editor. Billy doesn't edit much in the Wikipedia space, but from my own interaction with him, I know him as familiar with and interested in wiki policy, practice, and culture. He'll be great with the tools. Bishonen | talk 19:44, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 23) Support This stuff that just because you have not had a lot of talk edits, you aren't qualified is silly.--Rogerd 02:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 24) Undying port of su. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 25) Support. Carbonite | Talk 12:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 26) Support =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:44, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 27) Support with a suggestion to generally become more active in the Wikipedia namespace. I appreciate what people below are saying but feel deferring support will just lead nominees to jump through hoops and perhaps revert to being themselves again afterwards.     Dl yo ns 493   Ta lk   11:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Oppose
 * 1) Oppose Based on very low percentage of Wiki space edits. Also fairly low in talk. Keeping your head down and just working on articles is wonderful but I need confidence of familiarity with Wikipedia namespace. Marskell 23:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose For the same reasons as said by Marskell I must oppose this RfA. Private Butcher 23:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose for reasons above and I've not encountered this user. PedanticallySpeaking 17:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, "reasons above" is clear enough, but "not encountered"? I don't understand this portion of your comment.  How is "encountering" someone any different than reviewing their contribution history?   Un  focused  17:08, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, when you don't encounter a user, it's perfectly acceptable to...erm, not vote. Mike H (Talking is hot) 17:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) --Boothy443 | comhrá 06:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose needs more interaction with the community. Type O Spud 20:46, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Neutral
 * 1) Neutral Looking at contibs Good User but only 79 Wikipedia NameSpace Edits --JAranda'' | yeah 23:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Usually, I don't like low edit comments from people who have a lower edit count than the person being nominated, and I'll comment on this one. 2,459? You know how much that is, right? --WikiFanaticTalk Contribs 23:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Fair comments are fair comments. She(?) wasn't talking about over-all edits but about Wiki NameSpace. If the comment is on-topic you shouldn't bite. Can only admins vote for new admins? Marskell 00:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * No. Zach (Sound Off) 02:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * To clarify, any logged-in users can vote for new admins, regardless of whether they're common editors, admins, bureaucrats, developers or Jimbo Wales. Anonymous IPs, however, are not allowed to vote. — J I P | Talk 06:39, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The question was rhetorical ;). Marskell 08:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Neutral we do need active admins. I think you could wait another month or 2. Job  e  6  [[Image:Peru flag large.png|20px]] 23:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Neutral —Consistently good editor, but will support another time, given that he becomes more active in the Wikipedia namespace. User does not meet my voting standards, but he is certainly on the right track. Keep it up. →Jo urna list   >>talk<<  00:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Neutral, as per others above, the low number of edits in Talk and Wikipedia spaces is troubling. --Angr/undefined 14:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Neutral. Needs more participation in Talk and Wikipedia namespaces. Work on it and then I will be happy to support. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 02:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments

Questions for the candidate

A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:
 * 1. What sysop chores, if any, would you anticipate helping with? (Please read the page about administrators and the administrators' reading list.)
 * A. I'd basically do the usual stuff, really. Deleting pages, blocking vandals, fixing copy/paste moves, etc. I'll basically carry on editing as I am now, but with the added bonus of the admin tools at my disposal.
 * 2. Of your articles or contributions to Wikipedia, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
 * A. The Knightmare article, definitely. Being one of my favourite programmes ever, I knew it needed a big expansion. I'm also proud of Cliff Hanger, my Year in Television edits, and the Year in British music pages I wrote (1997 to 1989).
 * 3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and will deal with it in the future?
 * A. Funnily enough, my first real conflict has only recently started. There's a bit of a war on Berwick-upon-Tweed on whether the article should contain an exclamation mark or not, with my viewpoint that it should not be there. I'm trying to resolve this dispute on the talk page, though, and certainly not breaking the 3RR. I pride myself on never having to do this throughout my time on Wikipedia.
 * 4. {question by WikiFanatic} BillyH, (I know I have less in more time), you have 2,459 edits since March 2004. How do you plan to convince voters away from editcountitis? You have enough edits, in my opinion, but I'm wondering about other voters.
 * A. I'd say it's because I usually tend to edit articles in one go, rather than in several little ones. Take a look at these diffs, for example   . Admittedly I sometimes miss out something in one edit and have to correct it in another, but usually this is dealt with using the Show Preview command.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/BillyH


text: User talk:69.90.131.11

title: User talk:69.90.131.11


text:
Shams al-Dawla

Abu Taher (died 1021), better known by his regnal name Shams Al-Dawla ("Sun Of The State"), was the Buyid ruler of Hamadan from 997 to 1021. He was the son of Fakhr al-Dawla.

Biography
Fakhr al-Dawla died in 997; his elder son Abu Taleb Rostam ("Majd al-Dawla") took power in the bulk of his father's possessions in Jibal. Abu Taher himself gained the governorships of Hamadan and Kirmanshah, and was hence known as Shams al-Dawla. Since both sons were still minors their mother, the "Sayyida", assumed the regency.

Both sons originally took the title of Shâhanshâh, implying that they were subordinate to no one. They abandoned the title, however, when they accepted their cousin Baha' al-Dawla's authority by 1009 or 1010 at the latest.

In 1006 or 1007, Majd al-Dawla tried to throw of the Sayyida's regency. However, she gained the support of the Kurdish ruler Badr ibn Hasanwaih and Shams al-Dawla. Their forces laid siege to Ray and fought several battles with Majd al-Dawla's forces. When Ray was finally taken, Majd al-Dawla was imprisoned for a year, and Shams al-Dawla ruled in the city during that time. When the Sayyida released Majd al-Dawla, Shams al-Dawla returned to Hamadan.

Around 1013, following the death of the Badr ibn Hasanwaih, Shams al-Dawla occupied part of the former ruler's territory. Sometime in the later part of his reign, he tried to replace Majd al-Dawla as the ruler of Ray, but the Sayyida foiled his plans. In 1015, Shams al-Dawla called upon the prominent Persian scholar Avicenna in order to treat him. During Avicenna's stay at Shams al-Dawla's court, the latter became his vizier. Shams al-Dawla later died in 1021 and was succeeded by his son Sama' al-Dawla.

title: Shams al-Dawla


text:
User:Shauri/sig

 Sh ' a ' uri  smile!  13:45, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User:Shauri/sig


text:
User talk:Taxman/BSD and Linux

Congrats and addition
Original creator: good job :-) Specially the size vs model comparison. Added small remark about linux subsystem.  --Marco. 131.155.228.51 04:59, 26 August 2004 (UTC)

NPOV?
It seems to me the current version of the article kinda leans in the favor of BSD. If anyone else notices this, can they fix it? (A few more Linux-side advantages being listed would probably do it; just as long as it evens the playing field and doesn't tip the scale again; in the case, go into more depth with BSD, too.) I don't have any experience with BSD beyond watching anime on my friend's system once. MardukZero 08:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * NPOV doesn't mean pretense that unequal things are equal within a given scope of priorities. For example, I noticed that FreeBSD can run Linux-proprietary programs, but Linux can't run FreeBSD-specific programs. If true, then FreeBSD is functionally superior, and revealing this is NPOV. If true, it's also a compelling advantage that makes me want to install FreeBSD. If there are equally compelling advantages for Linux over FreeBSD that aren't described, then that wouldn't be NPOV. If Linux has lesser advantages that aren't described due to scope of the article, that's not a violation of NPOV -- unless the lesser advantages are so numerous as to collectively equal a compelling advantage. The latter exception case may be difficult to prove without art juries, expert panels, or user polls. Milo 06:27, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * I believe the correct version would be, "can also run most Linux programs" Moreover, one could argue that FreeBSD is the OS in need of a compatibility layer of these two, since there's extremely few, if any, programs available for FreeBSD that wouldn't build for Linux as well. As far as I can remember, there even used to be BSD binary support available for Linux, but it's since fallen unmaintained. --62.78.245.62 04:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I started the article and will admit that I will have a hard time making this article perfectly NPOV. FreeBSD does have technical and structural advantages that make it the better technical solution, or at least has for a long time. That may be partially or fully offset by the fact that Linux is more popular and now has greater support, and may be (and may have been) developing and improving faster. The problem is that is OR so it can't be added into the article without researching to find other sources to cite to back the claim up. I basically stopped working on this article because I didn't think an operating system comparison could ever be fully NPOV, and I found more important things to work on. - Taxman Talk 14:56, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * Advocacy opinions really do matter for new user education, because OS's are hidden cavern-like things that can't be seen all at once, and can barely be described in jargon. I'm a long time reader of Consumer Reports, and a fan of the California propositions voter information format (pro advocate text, con advocate text, and neutral cost analysis by legislative staff). Californians like the proposition, so I'm optimistic that OS advocacy can be formatted as NPOV. BSD and Linux currently have the lowest installed desktop base for a major OS classification (Unix-like), so we have an oportunity to set a good example for NPOV OS advocacy. Good but not perfect NPOV, since the Perfect is the opponent of the Good. Milo 13:59, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Is this article relevant?
(Note 2005_08_14 rename/move: "FreeBSD and Linux" to "BSD and Linux ")

It seems to me that the entire article is pointless. Comparing FreeBSD and Linux cannot be done. FreeBSD is an all-inclusive, full-featured operating system which combines the kernel and userland utilities in one neat package, all maintained by the FreeBSD project. Linux is merely a kernel. I guess what I'm saying is, there's no real defined scope to this article. It never defines what it is specifically comparing. --TheNationalist 03:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

{con't from § "Both FreeBSD and Linux are operating systems?"} Second, regarding the relevancy of the article, is this article even needed if it's comparing an operating system to a kernel? It would be more helpful if this article was comparing Debian and FreeBSD. Comparing a kernel to a highly integrated operating system isn't even logical. --TheNationalist 14:31, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It's not comparing an operating system to a kernel anymore than "BSD and Debian" would be. AlbertCahalan 02:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

My Wiki (or Google?) search arrived here because I read a discussion group where both BSD and Linux are constantly being discussed. Apparently, very few people run both, so reasonable experience comparisons are hard to find. I know that I need them since I haven't settled on a distro. With Linux (and BSD?) currently having a collective installed base of 5-7%, there must be a lot of other OS-impression info seekers like me. I have used and find value in all three major OS's. For the time being, perhaps I have less than usual POV. - I think Taxman had a correct sense that BSD and Linux advocacy-like comparisons are useful. I'm guessing that as a FreeBSD operator, Taxman is constantly reading generalizations about Linux distro-family competition, compared to the specific distro implementation of FreeBSD. Nothing wrong with that for a discussion group, but I agree with other commenters here that parallel comparisons should be made across the classification hierarchy. My impression of greatest Wiki public utility is that FreeBSD-specific comparisons should be generalized to the BSD world. However, there remains room for some FreeBSD advocacy, because specific examples are important in clarifying a general comparison. If FreeBSD has a large user group and is a good example of BSD, why not use it since Taxman founded the page? - See § "Apples and Oranges" below: I'm implementing major changes to get the article working relevantly. I hope this meets with consensus approval -- if not just revert it. Milo 09:57, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Apples and Oranges
(Note 2005_08_14 rename/move: "FreeBSD and Linux" to "BSD and Linux ") Better would be either of:

 * BSD and Linux
 * FreeBSD and Red Hat Enterprise Linux

These are bad:

 * FreeBSD and Linux
 * BSD and Red Hat Enterprise Linux

If you're going to pick one single BSD, then pick one single Linux to go with it. If you're going to consider all types of Linux, then consider all types of BSD.

AlbertCahalan 03:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Indeed. This entry is pointless. It's comparing an operating system to a kernel. FreeBSD is kernel+userland maintained by the FreeBSD project and Linux is just a kernel. There's no defined scope to this article, and I'm not sure there can be one given the nature of the comparison. --TheNationalist 03:52, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The user public thinks of Linux as an OS, developers apparently think of it as a kernel. That's been fixed (by AlbertCahalan?) with, "Linux by itself can refer to the bare Linux kernel, or more commonly to any system based on that kernel." - The user public also thinks of BSD as an OS. So the article is comparing a specific BSD distro (FreeBSD) to a Linux family of distros. That wouldn't make sense unless the FreeBSD community were as large as all of the Linux community put together. (See § "Is this article relevant?" above.) - The scope of the article is more general than specific, so I conclude from AlbertCahalan's choices above that the article should be titled "BSD and Linux". Taxman apparently doesn't have strong feelings about it. - So, what I'm going to do is change all general references from "FreeBSD" to just "BSD". Then I'll try convert the FreeBSD-specific material to examples. Undoubtedly, I'll make errors not obvious to me that others will need to clean up. After the major re-edit I'll move/rename the page. - To keep the NPOV, I've added the Slackware distro as a specific Linux example parallel to the FreeBSD distro. I don't run Slackware, not yet anyway. Mandriva advertising seems more to my taste, but I don't currently have room for its reported bloat due to Windows competition. I picked Slackware because of its long history and the related fact that so many experienced users and developers have good things to say about it. Among other things, Slackware is claimed easy to install small for a server, as well as expandable to a stable desktop. I haven't independently verified these claims, but one has to start somewhere. - That brings up the point that Installation Issues seem to be a big deal among the new BSD and Linux users' posts I read. Maybe it should become a new article comparison section? Ease of user control of installation size and the related concept of bloat or bloatware are frequently mentioned. Also I have personally experienced three installation failures for three different reasons. - A lot of changes here, but it feels to me like this subject retracking and rewrite is best done all at once. See if the article starts to make more sense. Feel free to revert if it just doesn't work. Milo 09:57, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Both FreeBSD and Linux are operating systems?
(Note 2005_08_14 rename/move: "FreeBSD and Linux" to "BSD and Linux ")

Regarding the opening line of the article, "FreeBSD and Linux are two open-source operating systems." Half of the above statement is false. An operating system is the kernel and at least minimal userland utilities to manage the operating system with. FreeBSD *is* an operating system and linux is merely a kernel. The kernel alone does not make an operating system. There simply is no _real_ debate to that point. {con't in § "Is this article relevant?"} TheNationalist 14:31, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * In common usage, "Linux" is like "BSD" or "Windows". It refers to a class of related operating systems, and is used when the distinctions don't matter. The kernel is generally called just that, "the kernel", or the "Linux kernel". AlbertCahalan 02:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That's the point though isn't it? This is supposed to be something people can learn from, so everything should be done right.  You don't say, "I've got a HEMI," you say, "I've got a Dodge, it has a HEMI engine."  You don't run a Linux, you run Gentoo with a Linux kernel.  If you are going to refer the the class of BSD operating systems in a manner that should be authoritative, it should say BSD operating systems not BSDs and if you're talking about Linux distributions, it should say Linux distributions not Linuxes, Linuxen or Linux.  65.94.52.193 23:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Open Source
(Note 2005_08_14 rename/move: "FreeBSD and Linux" to "BSD and Linux ")

I don't know how to put this in the article, so I'll refrain from doing so: Neither FreeBSD nor GNU/Linux are open source. FreeBSD is, well, not open source, and GNU/Linux is Free Software.—Boarder8925 17:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Depends on your definition of the words, but open source is usually considered a superset containing the GPL and other licenses. So, yes, by the standard definition http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php, they both make their source freely available without unreasonable restrictions so they are 'open source'. --Taxman 05:36, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * Taxman, the corporate trademark of Open Source is not the sole definition of the words open source, open source only means that the source of something is readable, the OSI doesn't get to define words any more than the FSF gets to define words like free. IPFilter, which does not fit with the OSI's vision of Open Source is, in fact, open source, despite the fact that no source code can be modified and redistributed.  Boarder8925, you are just completely wrong, FreeBSD and the Linux kernel are both, you guessed it, open source.  65.94.52.193 04:14, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

editor's messages
The new reworded sentence looks good, Enkrates. Thanks. --QuiTeVexat 22:04, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

- Request rewrite. The quality of this article is beyond poor, it is terrible. It needs to be completely remade in order to have both a cohesive direction and to remove the massive and innumerable mistakes and inaccuracies within it. 65.94.52.193 04:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Hello 65.94.52.193, your addition to the BSD package systems was helpful, thanks. Your new requestrewrite template may be useful to Wikipedia, but it should be downsized to match the others. Since you have made 50 edits in just 8 days at Wikipedia, it would be cooperative if you would create a login username and a talk page so others can communicate with you. (1) Your "Request rewrite" reason comment doesn't make sense, and so it came out looking like trolling or vandalism, which was probably not your intent. (2) The article has a cohesive direction based on this talk page discussion: a relevant, parallel, and NPOV comparison of BSD and Linux, intended for people who are relatively unfamiliar with one or both families. (3) This edition of the article is only about two weeks old, and it's still partly in outline form which you helped to fill in. So it needs to be developed, not completely remade. (4) The article may have a few mistakes and inaccuracies in it, but they are definitely not massive and innumerable. How about writing here what you think the worst mistake is, so one can figure out why you dislike this intentionally vanilla article? Milo 12:02, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

For me the problems with the article were too complete and all encompassing for find anything redeemable about this article. As it is, it simply is not something I think I could edit into a working and decent article. It is dealing with a fundamentally flawed argument to begin with, as has been mentioned before. Linux is a kernel, BSDs are a series of related operating systems. An article comparing the 4 BSD operating systems would be a more apt concept, as it is it is comparing generalizations of 4 systems with generalizations of dozens, hundreds maybe, of Linux-based distributions. If this article were to actually use Slackware and FreeBSD as the compared systems, it would be better to name it Slackware versus FreeBSD. Perhaps the proposed goal is too grand to be accomplished within this article and putting the relevent information in each of the BSD articles and distribution articles and letting people compare themselves would be better. 65.94.52.193 14:47, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I think I understand your position. If one takes the position that Linux can only be a kernel, then the article's consensed direction would indeed not seem logical. The mass language reality is that the definition of "Linux" is rapidly morphing, and to a lesser extent, so is the definition of "BSD" (for example, with the flood of new users to arrive with desktop BSD). The way that you originally learned these terms is at least partly obsolete. I expect that is how you feel about many other morphing BSD and Linux terms of art. That in turn would logically explain your feeling of innumerable inaccuracies, not because they are there yet, but because you can see that the article is heading toward them (which btw, vets the focus of the current outline). If the cognitive dissonance of morphing definitions is intolerable to you, you would be happier working on history pages, where definitions don't change any more often than 20 to 100 years. Yes, I agree this is an ambitious article. It attempts to help new users classify useful, not meaningless, distinctions among four or five BSD's and dozens of Linux's, yet avoid getting the user swamped in detail, or be proselytized rather than informed by OS advocacy. As for "letting people compare themselves", I'm good at that, I tried that, and I couldn't do it. That's why I decided to help write this article. Milo 17:51, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

The big problem is that if you generalize on such a scope you cannot properly compare things. ... [65.94.52.193]

 * Yes, that's one of the technical writing challenges here. Fortunate that "properly" is a variable that can be connotated in a way useful to the new consumer. It can't be perfect, as perfect is the enemy of the good. "Optimally within a given context" is a useful replacement concept. The context here is users who are new to BSD, Linux, or both, but who are familiar with wintels or Macs at the application level like browsing and word processing. Such users are typically comfortable with a point and click interface, so they need to be informed as to when only a command line interface (CLI) is likely to be available for configuration. [Milo]

...If you were to generalize everything about BSD so as only to use what is common amoung them you would have very little to use, ... [65.94.52.193]

 * There are article sections to generalize both similarities and differences. One of the most important consensus points so far made in the article, is that of less difference between families and among distros than public advocacy would lead the new user to believe, and they need to know that. The generalization model I'm currently using is Greg Lehey's "Explaining BSD":
 * http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/explaining-bsd [Milo]

...the license isn't even concrete - NetBSD uses the 4, FreeBSD uses the 3 and OpenBSD the 2 clause BSDL. ... [65.94.52.193]

 * Ok, good item, that sounds simple enough to go into the licensing section, with links to the Wiki(?) text of each type of license. The most important license issues are what one cannot do. The new user needs to be informed briefly, which BSD's they should not use, for example, if they wish to go into a BSD software programming and sales business. There are probably classes of users that tend to cluster with each distro, and they should be listed if known. [Milo]

...Linux distributions are even worse in their mass variations. ... [65.94.52.193]

 * Other articles are attempting to grasp the problem of listing and comparing the many Linux distros: List of Linux distributions, and Comparison of Linux distributions. The first has Linux text descriptions, the second is a Linux comparison table. Each has a perspective with advantages. The most similar Wiki BSD compare page may be the "Berkeley Software Distribution: Open Source BSD Derivatives" section, with BSD text descriptions. The useful external link DistroWatch is a commercially supported catalog that covers both BSD and Linux. [Milo]

...This should either be a Fedora Linux verus NetBSD, OpenBSD verus Gentoo Linux, FreeBSD versus Ubuntu Linux or something like that or it shouldn't try to go into details, since they will be generalizations that do not apply accros the board. ... [65.94.52.193]

 * This article's current attempt is to do both a general compare and one specific compare on a snapshot sample basis. I assume that this specific compare, FreeBSD versus Slackware, can't be comprehensive. It's just to give the new user an idea of what some specific differences might be, giving a reality check on public advocacy. If it turns out that there aren't many meaningful differences, that is also useful information. You are certainly free to start a Wiki specific-distro versus specific-distro compare page of the type you have noted, and make it as comprehensive as you can manage. [Milo]

You mention DesktopBSD as though it were a BSD, it is not, it is a KDE interface that is dropped onto FreeBSD. 65.94.52.193 14:47, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

 * No, I wasn't referring to "DesktopBSD". I wrote "desktop BSD" in lower initial case and two words, referring to the concept that the point and click desktop is or will become a prominent package feature of all BSD distros, sooner or later. "DesktopBSD" that you mentioned is a specific example that is suitable for this article, because it is implemented for FreeBSD as sample compared by this article. - The desktop interface is a central issue for this article, because as users continue to migrate from Windows, they want one. Linux's have probably gained a lot of new user popularity because their desktop interface is accepted with little question. On the other hand, I've noticed that traditional BSD users tend to be CLI users, and are sometimes unnecessarily contemptuous of new users who prefer point and click. Both interfaces have their advantages, usually depending on whether one is doing a high level application or a low level script programming task. Configurations seem to fall in between. It seems to be an issue that desktop interface users object to BSD or Linux text mode configuration files. Milo 06:48, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

The interface is irrelevent, it's all X. X has nothing to do with BSDs or Linux distributions, it's an add on. GNOME, Windowmaker, AfterStep, KDE, CDE, XFCE, fluxbox and the rest are all add ons to X. Interface has nothing to do with the operating systems. The command line is the base for Linuxen just as much as it is BSDs, BSDs just tend to make better use of it and make sure anything can be done in it. Linux distributions tend to like to make things more convoluted and confusing using curses and graphical tools for even the most simple things. At the very least, you'll never find DragonFlyBSD or OpenBSD giving flying fart about point and click, that is something that is, as I said, irrelevent. FreeBSD and NetBSD probably won't either, since the command line works much better than a graphical user interface can. There is only contempt inside BSD communities for people that are too stupid to help themselves, if they cannot read they are beyond help. Each BSD has instructions for during and after an installation, they each have man pages, it's people refusing to read these things that gains scorn. It's not an issue with desktop users, it's an issue with lazy people that refuse to use the thing filling their heads. 65.94.52.193 15:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for confirming CLI vs. desktop interface as candidate for most important OS public advocacy issue, and possibly a prime cause of the BSD vs. Linux debate. I would further identify this as a sociological class position. This should go into the advocacy section. The Wiki NPOV writing problem is how to fairly state each side's position, and recognize that strong feelings exist, without further fanning flame war passions that could prevent completion of this article. For a method of how to do this, see the California propositions voter information format in the "NPOV?" section above. Milo 21:47, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * Hardly a matter of class, only of interest. People that are interested in Unix and like Unix understand BSDs and how to use BSDs because BSDs are Unix to the bone.  People that are disinterested in Windows, that hate Windows and want to get away from Windows go looking to Linux distributions because it's not Windows - because the press and random kids keep telling them it is an alternative to Windows.  Because of this there are lots of people making BSDs more and more Unix-like and Linux systems more and more Windows-like.  BSDs understand that the interface is a part of X and that X is not a part of their system, that it is an add-on which they give minor support for.  Linux distributions, because they are targetting and targetted by Windows users are mucking around trying to cobble together something that seems Windowsy enough for these people.  I think the biggest confusion caused by Linux distributions ever was what X is, because Linux distributions are not full operating systems developed with a focused goal and instead a whole whackload of random tools from all over people do not realise the difference between the system and X.  65.94.52.193 23:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Taxman/BSD and Linux


text:
User talk:Sertoglu

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! , SqueakBox 23:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
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 * Manual of Style

title: User talk:Sertoglu


text:
Tim Bueler

Tim Bueler (born 1987) is a media and political consultant and is currently serving as the Director of Media Relations for the Minuteman Project, an immigration reform advocacy group.

Radio station KLAV in Las Vegas briefly aired Tim Bueler’s Conservative Report. Bueler spoke about current issues and offered advice to callers.

Bueler traveled to Kenya with his media client, Jerome Corsi, to launch Corsi's book "The Obama Nation" which alleges secret ties between Barack Obama and Kenyan leaders. Bueler and Corsi were detained on October 7, 2008, by Kenyan immigration officials and police just before the commencement of a press conference. They were eventually deported.

title: Tim Bueler


text:
EDN (magazine)

EDN is an electronics industry website and formerly a magazine owned by AspenCore Media, an Arrow Electronics company. The editor-in-chief is Majeed Ahmad. EDN was published monthly until, in April 2013, EDN announced that the print edition would cease publication after the June 2013 issue.

History
The first issue of Electrical Design News, the original name, was published in May 1956 by Rogers Corporation of Englewood, Colorado. In January 1961, Cahners Publishing Company, Inc., of Boston, acquired Rogers Publishing Company. In February 1966, Cahners sold 40% of its company to International Publishing Company in London In 1970, the Reed Group merged with International Publishing Corporation and changed its name to Reed International Limited.

Acquisition of EEE magazine Cahners Publishing Company acquired Electronic Equipment Engineering, a monthly magazine, in March 1971 and discontinued it. In doing so, Cahners folded EEE's best features into EDN, and renamed the magazine EDN/EEE. At the time, George Harold Rostky (1926–2003) was editor-in-chief of EEE. Rostky joined EDN and eventually became editor-in-chief before leaving to join Electronic Engineering Times as editor-in-chief.

Taking EDN worldwide Roy Forsberg later became editor-in-chief of EDN magazine. He was later promoted to publisher and Jon Titus PhD was named editor-in-chief. Forsberg and Titus established EDN Europe, EDN Asia and EDN China, creating one of the largest global circulations for a design engineering magazine. EDN's 25th anniversary issue was a 425-page folio.

Reed Limited acquires remaining interest in Cahners In 1977, Reed acquired the remaining interest in Cahners, then known as Cahners Publications. In 1982, Reed International Limited changed its name to Reed International PLC. In 1992, Reed International merged with Elsevier NV, becoming Reed Elsevier PLC on January 1, 1993. Reed Business Media then removed the Cahners Business Publishing name to rebrand itself as Reed Business Information.

Reed sells EDN to Canon Communications LLC, Canon acquired by United Business Media, UBM sells EDN to AspenCore Media Reed Business Information, part of Reed Elsevier, sold the magazine to Canon Communications LLC in February 2010. United Business Media, now UBM LLC, acquired Canon Communications LLC in October 2010. On June 3, 2016, UBM announced that EE Times, along with the rest of the electronics media portfolio (EDN, Embedded.com, TechOnline and Datasheets.com) was being sold to AspenCore Media, a company owned by Arrow Electronics, for $23.5 million. The acquisition was completed on August 1, 2016.

On April 9, 2013, UBM announced that EDN's print edition would cease publication after the June 2013 issue and that the online EDN.com community would continue.

Michael Dunn led EDN through mid-2018. Santo succeeded him shortly thereafter and Majeed Ahmad became Editor-in-Chief in August 2020.

International editions
EDN is also published in China and Taiwan and in Japan by ITmedia, Inc. which licenses content from AspenCore Media.

Publishing Segment
The website, EDN Network, caters to the needs of the working electrical engineer and covers new technologies and electronic component products at an engineering level. Columns discuss everything from managing engineers and engineering projects to technical issues faced in the design of electronic components, systems and developing technologies.

Design ideas
The "Design Ideas" section features several user-submitted designs that are innovative or novel solutions to constrained design problems. Every issue features a column called "Prying Eyes" which disassembles a popular or intriguing consumer product and investigates the technologies that enable it.

ASBPE Awards
In May 2006, EDN won three awards from the American Society of Business Publication Editors. The Best Regular Department of the Year award went to "Prying Eyes".

Executives and journalists

 * William M. Platt, appointed publisher of EDN in December 1967 by Cahners Publishing
 * Robert H. Cushman (1924–1996), editor for EDN from 1962 to the late-1980s covering, among other things, the early development of microprocessing

title: EDN (magazine)


text:
Talk:Arbiter (electronics)

Metastability
This article claims:

 * Yet metastability is an inevitable consequence of quantum indeterminacy, since if the inputs to an arbiter (flip flop) arrive almost simultaneosly the cicuit most likely will traverse a point of metastability.

Can you provide references to laboratory experiments that demonstrate this, by ruling out the non-quantum-mechanical explanations? For example, ground bounce is currently taught by EE schools as one of the many causes of metastability, and quantum is not typically mentioned. Are there texts which explicitly develop this claim in a testable, verifiable fashion? linas 23:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Ground bounce is not generally thought to be the cause of metastability in arbiters. There are published articles on metastability in arbiters that trace it back to quantum physics.--Carl Hewitt 23:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Can you provide references? None of the references provided in the current article even use the word "quantum". I have the luxury of being able to talk to people who work in this business. They rather question the applicability of the qantum explanation.  We discussed a certain proprietary clock circuit that operates at frequencies well beyond what is currently available for chip clocks; fundamental to its design is is the fact that its driven into a curious "permanently metastable" state, with the actual clock phases pulled off in a very novel and unique fashion. It seems that a purely classical model of the circuit is able to adequtely model the fabricated devices, with regards to oxide thickness, doping, etc.  Given that a leading-edge, state-of-the-art circuit designer who builds metastable circuits intentionally does not beleive in any quantum explanation for the circuit ... makes me wonder about the claims made in this article.  I'd like to see some actual lab proof, as opposed to theoretical arguments.  linas 00:00, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I mean, this is kind of important. If I can fabricate quantum logic at ordinary fabs using ordinary design rules, and build circuits that stay in quantum states for very long periods of time, this would have a huge and broad set of implications for people who are trying to do quantum computing. Under current technology, it is very hard to build systems which hang in an true quantum state without having the wave-function collapse.  Having the ability to use ordinary fab techniques would change the state of the art.  I'd really like to investigate more; this would be very exciting if there was anything to it.  linas 00:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The indeterminate states that we are talking about here are not qubits so they can't be used for that kind of computing. There have been some experiments done to see how long an arbiter can be maintained in a metastable state.  I am not sure what the current record is but I believe that for a well designed arbiter above room temperature that it is not a very large number of times longer than the time it takes an inverter to operate.  So I would be very curious about a "permanently metastable" state for such an arbiter.  Of course a well designed arbiter is supposed to exit a metastable state as rapidly as possible.--Carl Hewitt 01:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Appearently, publc talks were given so its not confidential. Its a ring of 5 or 7 or 11 gates hooked up so that it oscillates at a frequency slightly above the switching time for a single gate. The magic is that there are interconects running across the ring, e.g. some gates are skipped, the result is that  subsequent stages are being driven to invert even as the driving stage hasn't switched itself.  Sort of like a polynomial decoder, but with more feedback, hooked up to be free-running.  The ring itself just sort of floats, the clocks are reconstructed off of it. linas 00:27, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I asked a similar question in regard to quantum indeterminacy in computation. I find the claim that metastability is a quantum mechanical effect puzzling, and I gave a reference in which this claim is disputed.--CSTAR 20:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Please see my reply there. Thanks,--Carl Hewitt 21:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, you refute the claim there, but still don't cite anything in support. If they're not qubits, what are they? What exactly, is decohering? How does one make a lab test, so as to distinguish a quantum effect from some other effect?  linas 00:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * We are dealing with entangled quantum states (that happen not to be qubits) that are decohering. Lab experiments are done in the standard way and they clearly show metastability.  What exactly is your question about these experiments?--Carl Hewitt 05:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * If a system has entangled states, then, if one is clever, one may construct qubits from them. The only difference between qubits and entangled states is that the former were designed to specifically be easy to manipulate and control. If a system exhibits entangled states, I'm pretty sure someone somewhere has attempted to use it to build qubits. Of course, with only variable success.

 * There are strong arguments why you cannot build qubits just using arbiters.--Carl Hewitt 16:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Tell me about one lab experiment that is able to distinguish between two different theories of metastability. Tell me about these two different theories of metastability, and tell me how the experiment is able to differentiate between them. linas 14:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup on text
Did a bit of cleanup on the text, to improve readability and to make it clearer why this is important. Please check for correctness. Thanks.

(Having once been a systems programmer for one of the rare UNIVAC 1108 multiprocessor mainframe systems designed before sound arbiter design was figured out, I was painfully aware of this very real problem. Not fun.  I like the reference to the Ginosar paper; apparently some designers are still getting it wrong.)  --John Nagle 16:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is not possible to do this in a fixed time.
The above-referenced sentence is not presently sourced, and I suspect we could only source it by Karl's statements, which may not be reliable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

diagram please
Please include a diagram for an modern arbiter in cmos, so that we might get a feel for one. Feb 2011 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.193.8 (talk) 08:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Arbiter (electronics)


text:
HB Studios

HB Studios Multimedia Limited is a Canadian video game developer based in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia. It is best known for its rugby and cricket games.

History
HB Studios was founded in early July 2000 by Jeremy Wellard in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia. The company started with nine employees and developed Cricket 2002 for Electronic Arts. The studio entered a multi-project deal with EA Canada in 2004 to continue developing sports games for the EA Sports label, including further games in the Rugby and Cricket series, FIFA Street 2 for the PlayStation Portable as well as co-development on Madden 07 for the Wii. This exclusivity deal ended in 2007.

In 2008, HB Studios opened a second studio in Halifax, Nova Scotia. At the time, the company had 130 employees. The Halifax studio was closed at the end of July 2012 with all development moved to the headquarters in Lunenberg. The last games developed by the satellite studio were NBA Baller Beats for Xbox 360 and Medal Bound for iOS. A publishing label, HB Arcade, was formed in 2009 with the goal of self-publishing downloadable titles on WiiWare, PlayStation Network, and Xbox Live Arcade. Games released under this label included HB Arcade Cards and HB Arcade Disc Golf, both for WiiWare, as well as Jam Space for DSiWare.

Wellard stepped down as president of the company in February 2015 and was to be replaced by Alan Bunker, the chief operating officer. In August 2018, 2K Sports took over the publishing of The Golf Club 2019 featuring PGA Tour which was released on August 28, 2018. Bunker departed the company in November 2019, with James Seaboyer taking over as chief executive officer. Dave McFarland, previously the technical director, became the chief technology officer, while Craig Heffler remained the chief financial officer.

HB Studios was acquired by 2K in March 2021 and will continue to work on PGA Tour games. 2K also secured a long-term contract with Tiger Woods to use his likeness for these games as well as to serve as executive producer and consultant for the series.

title: HB Studios


text:
User:Guitarist6987876

I vandalized myself!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

title: User:Guitarist6987876


text:
Robert Ramsay (Victorian politician)

Robert Ramsay (16 February 1842 – 23 May 1882), was an Australian statesman and Postmaster-General of Victoria on two occasions in the 1870s.

Biography
Ramsay was a native of Hawick, Roxburghshire, Scotland, but his parents emigrated to Victoria when he was a child of four, and he was educated at the Scotch College in Melbourne. He studied law at University of Melbourne, and subsequently became a member of a well-known firm of solicitors in the city. He married in 1868 Isabella Catherine Urquhart, second daughter of Roderick Urquhart, of Yangery Park.

In October 1870 entered the assembly for East Bourke in the Conservative and free trade interest. He was a member of the government of James Goodall Francis from 1872 to 1874. He was subsequently Postmaster-General of Victoria (July 1874 to August 1875) in the administration of George Kerferd; he held the same office in conjunction with the ministry of education (October 1875 to May 1877) under Sir James McCulloch; and for a short term in 1880 he was chief secretary and minister of education in the first administration of James Service.

He died on 23 May 1882 at his home in East Melbourne.

title: Robert Ramsay (Victorian politician)


text: Talk:Gwen Ifill

title: Talk:Gwen Ifill


text: User talk:Martian Kyo

title: User talk:Martian Kyo


text:
Police intelligence

Police intelligence refers to an element of the British police. Staffed by police officers and support staff, its purpose is to track and predict crime with a view to curbing it. It is an emerging field that gained momentum after the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS) launched the National Intelligence Model, which formalised the contribution intelligence makes to policing. There are also intelligence units at divisional level (DIU).

Function
The Intelligence analysts investigate who is committing crimes, how, when, where and why. They then provide recommendations on how to stop or curb the offences. As part of this, analysts produce profiles of crime problems and individual subjects, and produce both strategic (overall, long-term) and tactical (specific, short-term) assessments within the confines set by the individual police force. These assessments and profiles are used to both monitor and predict crime, aiming to move policing from "reactionary" investigation to "proactive" investigation. Analysts look for links between a wide variety of intelligence sources to work out what is going on, and make recommendations on how to stop it. This is done at all levels, from local police stations dealing with town issues, to whole county crime, regional crime and beyond.

Personnel
At the heart of police intelligence is the intelligence analyst. Analysts are drawn from diverse backgrounds; some are graduates from any academic background and some are retired police officers. Most have experience working in an analytical field. They are recruited on a per-vacancy basis directly by the police force that will employ them, not through any national scheme. Analysts work very closely with regular police officers on particular areas of crime; an analyst might work with a police officer on a vehicle crime desk, or a violent crime desk, for example. Opportunities exist for progression within the profession; while individual forces differ, an analyst can become a lead analyst, senior analyst or principal analyst. Opportunities are likely to exist for analysts to work on a national level with the Serious Organised Crime Agency, now the National Crime Agency.

Tools
Analysts have a huge, even endless, variety of sources to work from. These include the UK National DNA Database, Police National Computer, crimint, crime reports and information from witnesses, information from informants and agents, local knowledge, surveillance logs, force intelligence summaries and even newspaper reports. Intelligence Units have staff whose job is to build up and develop intelligence (such as the police officers mentioned above), and analysts are expected to make sense of this information and identify gaps for intelligence-gathering officers to fill.

Analysts have a number of IT systems to help make sense of the information, including i2, bespoke police information management systems, geographical mapping tools and social mapping tools. They often work closely and exchange information with other law enforcement agencies, including the Serious Organised Crime Agency, other police forces and MI5.

title: Police intelligence