text:
Talk:Socialist Action (United States)

POV?
This entry for Socialist Action was obviously written by someone who is quite hostile to the organization and what it stands for. It paints the history of Socialist Action as consiting of nothing but splits. It totally ignores the numerous contriubtions that the group is very well known for, such as SA's work in the anti-war movement, the fight to free Mumia Abu-Jamal and in the labor movement. It also fails to mention the numerous fusions with other groups that SA has gone through over the years (something which needs to be included if one is to be fair about the splits the group has gone through - since some of the splits were simply the result of raids and of failed marriages, so to speak).

In closing, the current entry for Socialist Action is a terribly biased and hostile piece, and should be radically redone.

 * The article has actually been written by a large number of people, although I suspect none of them are members of Socialist Action. Splits tend to be remembered and allow the article to link to many others.  Perhaps the editors haven't been as well aware of the current activities of Socialist Action.  As you appear to know more about these, why not edit the article and improve it? Warofdreams talk 10:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

--Does a sentence like "The history of Socialist Action has been one of factionalism and marginality despite the roots the group has within the workers movement." belong in an encyclopedia entry? That hits me like a pretty loaded phrase.

Major undiscussed revision.
I have reverted a major undiscussed revision, which another editor has also reverted. At first glance, it looks like someone was removing material for no reason and replacing it with material cut and pasted from SA's own website. The SA material will be their copyright, and lifting it conflicts with out policies. Plus, you can't remove material without a reason. --Duncan 13:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I had an email from Socialist Action to ask for clarification about how they can help develop this page. That's really wonderful -- the page needs a lot more information about their actual work. I also understand that even they are unfamiliar with one of the 'splits' listed. For that reason, I will add a refs neded tag to that section. My reply to them follow...
 * Wikipedia works by a consensus policy that is outlined fully here:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines
 * Each page has a 'talk' page behind it on which editors discuss possible changes. When there's a very substantial edit that isn't explained and motivated on the talk page, then it come under close scruitiny. In this case, I seem to recall that material had been removed that had not been agreed as being to be untrue or not notable. Furthermore, material had been added in which was just a wholesale lifting of text from SA's website. There are more concise ways to summarise that: in essence a link to the page on Trotskyism is all that's needed to indicate SA's polcies. Since SA presents itself in a similar way to other socialist groups, that wholesale lifting duplicates information found elsewhere and does not give any insight into SA's distinctive positions. Furthermore, lifting text wholesale breaches your copyright and does not give a neutral standpoint: Wikipedia aims to take a neutral standpoint.
 * If you look at the entry for other socialist groups, you'll see that the proposed edits would have take the page some way from the direction Wikipedia takes.
 * Of course, the page will benefit from some more work. However, that process requires agreement on the Talk page.
 * Any comments? --Duncan 12:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

An-SA POV?
I would like to help in re-working this entry. Since there seems to be some dispute between members and non-members of Socialist Action in what this entry should say, I'd like to submit my proposed changes/additions here first, and see what people say, before I add them to the entry. While there are a lot of things I'd eventually like to see added or changed, I'll start by making two suggestions. One is that the sentence "The history of Socialist Action has been one of factionalism and marginality despite the roots the group has within the workers movement. Like its parent the SWP, its history can in many respects be written as a record of the many factional struggles and splits which have wracked the group." under the catagory "Splits" be immediately removed. This doesn't meet NPOV standards. And second, I'd like to propose that we add a section on Socialist Action's electoral campaigns. How is this for at least some preliminary text: "Socialist Action has run candidates for elected office on a number of occasions. It views electoral campaigns as a way to promote socialist politics, as well as to advocate on behalf of issues that the organization is promoting.  Currently, Socialist Action is the only Trotskyist group in the United States with an elected official.  SA member Adam Ritscher was elected to the Douglas County Board of Supverisors in northern Wisconsin in April of 2006, and he continues to serve in that office [citation: http://www.ballot-access.org/2006/060106.html#15 ].  Another example of recent Socialist Action election campaigns is Jeff Mackler's 2006 write-in campaign for U.S. Senate in northern California.  As a result of legal challenges, Socialist Action does not have to disclose who the financial supporters of its election campaigns, since it has been able to demonstrate government harrasment of socialist candidates in the past [citation: http://www.ballot-access.org/2004/0801.html#7 ]. Examples of SA election campaigns of the past include Sylvia Weinstein's 1988 campaign for San Francisco Board of Education, in which she won 21,000 votes [citation: http://www.socialistaction.org/news/200109/sylvia.html ]."

What do you guys think?--Adamritscher 21:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)Adam Ritscher
 * Hi Adam. The section on elections looks okay to me. I've italicised the sentence you would like to remove. Why do you think it's POV? Do important disputes in SA not tend to resolve themselves in factional disputes? Is the group notably less marginal than similar organisations?--Duncan 13:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in replying to you Duncan, but yeah, I definetly think that there is a problem with the section called "Splits". The most obvious sentence that I take issue with is the one that says: "The history of Socialist Action has been one of factionalism and marginality despite the roots the group has within the workers movement." All U.S. Trotskyist groups are small, so one could make an argument that they all are "marginal" relative to the big capitalist parties, yet no other Wikipedia entry for other U.S. Trotskyist groups describe them as "marginal". This seems unfair to me. Plus, SA is not the smallest of U.S. Trotskyist groups, and in terms of influence on the rest of the left I think a very strong case could be made that SA is more influential than many similar sized groups [it's role in the movement to free Mumia, the anti-war movement, a number of trade union locals, Lynne Stewart defense, defending Kevin Cooper, defending immigrant rights, U.S. Labor Against the War, the Labor Party, election campaigns, etc. I think speaks for itself - SA members are in leadership roles in all of these movements].

As for the splits themselves, I think too much emphasis is put on it. What criteria is used for what should be listed? If one wants to count every time two or more people left Socialist Action, there's one or two incidents that aren't on the current list. But is it worth listing every time two or three people leave SA on a wikipedia entry? And that's how big some of the splits currently listed are! There have only been 3 splits in SA's history where the number of people leaving hit the double digits. And the the current wording fails to mention anything about the numerous fusions SA has had - a number which approaches the number of splits the groups has had. In fact, a number of the splits were actually the result of failed fusions, some of them were little more than raids, in my opinion. But I don't think any of this needs to be listed in a wikipedia entry. I would suggest simply a sentence or two that says something to the effect that Socialist Action has had a number of dramatic splits and fusions since it was founded.

For what it's worth, I think it's unfair to characterize the defining feature of SA as one of constant splits. That may be how some bitter former members wish to portray the organization, but it's not how the average activist, worker or student who comes into contact views the group. Most of SA's splits were tiny, and not unusual for the Trotskyist movement. Small movements often have many splits - it's a side effect of frustration in the overall small size of the revolutionary movement. In any event, in summary, I think the current wording of the SA entry, especially the section called "Splits" puts way too much emphasis on these splits, and gives the entry a far more negative tone than entries for other U.S. Trotskyist groups. -AdamRitscher —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamritscher (talk • contribs) 22:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Adam. You makes some great points about the group's good work, and that would be useful in the article. I take your point about splits as a point of balance, but they are meaningful and do partly reflect the ability to deal with divergence of the majority and minorities (Personally, I feel the difficulty in maintaining co-operation despite disagreements in the past might also reflect SA's cooperation with the Fourth International over the last decade). Reducing that down to a sentence seems to lose the balance. What do you think? --Duncan (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Hi Duncan, hi Adam. Yeah, I think some stuff could be put in about the leadership role SA played in the 1980s around the Jobs, Peace and Justice Coalition that became the biggest mobilizer against the war in Central America on the West Coast. They've lead in Mumia work more recently. Again in the 1980s they played a key role, if not THE key role in supplying solidarity to the embattled UFCW Local P9 in Austin, MN AND providing the closest thing to a mitliant tactical perspective for the leadership of that local. Lastly, if we are going to talk about splits (and I left with the "Lambetist" one mentioned in the article) the very many fusions and unfications should also be mentioned. A split from the Morenoist LIT section in the US brought some members into SA. The fusion with the Vargarites in Detroit occured when I was in it. The recent addition of members of Labor Standard (ex-FIT) joined SA. And I'm sure there are others. Oh, and, very interestingly, the 'exchange' of cadre with Spark, the US supporters of the LO in France where SA put on staff a full time Spark member who was invited to all the political committee meetings, received all the documents internal or not, etc. She was on staff for about 1 month and then, after discussions with the leadership of Spark, agreed that any further collaboration was in neither organizations interests and we part amiicably. Lastly, but not incronilogical order....the Global Class War tendency joined SA around 1989 or so, I think. This was group of Trotskyists who had been previously known as the International-Communist League and were "Marcyite Trotskyists" oriented, previously, to the Workers World Party. So...it should be "Splits AND Fusions".66.77.107.100 (talk) 07:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)David Walters, ETOL.

Oh..small point...hmm...the 1991 Lambertist 'split' was actually a voted on expulsion. If you attended the Lambertist organized meeting in Barcalona, you were expelled for breaking discipline. My view is that it should be noted as a "split/expulsion" or an expulsion. "Expulsion" are, btw, totally justified if they are...justified politically. Groups tend not to like to use that word and opt for 'split' as if the organization actually didn't do anything, they woke up to find their opposition no longer in the group. Yeah :)66.77.107.100 (talk) 07:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)D. Walters

Counting Members
The recent change to the member count strikes me as odd. Socialist Action doesn't go around publishing its counts of members, and the 130 number actually seems a bit high to me. I don't think it's a necessary or fruitful thing to include in the encyclopedia article. There aren't counts of members for any other groups of comparable size. The group has been growing, but I don't think at its size we should include the inevitably gossip-y attempts to get to numbers. However, I wouldn't object if they were verified and sourced. Cadriel (talk) 10:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I've gone ahead and removed this, since it's been two weeks since the citation note went up and no one's even bothered to discuss the matter. SA's recent article on their convention didn't publish member counts, so there is nothing from that end.  Unless they care to volunteer the info, or someone moderately verifiable posts it, the member count is not a relevant part of the article.  Cadriel (talk) 10:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have another suggestion. Up until a few weeks ago the article stated that the group has around 70 members. Why don't you revert it that, rather than delete the whole sentence?--Duncan (talk) 16:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there wasn't a reference for that number, and it should have had a citation needed tag as well. The size of the group is not public common knowledge, and while I have good reason to believe it's between 70 and 130, neither count is referenced in the way that facts need to be in Wikipedia.  This article claims members in 31 cities, which would support text like "Socialist Action claims to have members in 31 cities."  Would this be a good addition to the article?  Cadriel (talk) 17:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that would be a much better point to add, since it has the benefit of being both true and referenced! --Duncan (talk) 17:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions for Improving Page
I'd like to make some suggestions for improving this page. As it currently reads there is very little about what Socialist Action does as far as political work, and there is too much emphasis on splits. I propose creating a new sub-section on the page dealing with the groups current political work. SA was one of the main initiators, and has members in the leadership bodies of, the National Assembly to End the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars & Occupation. The National Assembly is a network of national and local anti-war groups trying to encourage more unity in the U.S. antiwar movement, and for a focus on a mass action strategy to end the war (mass demonstrations). SA also is very active in the movement to free Mumia Abu-Jamal, U.S. Labor Against the War, the Climate Crisis Coalition, the immigrant rights movement, a variety of campus struggles and in several trade unions. In saying "very active in" I mean that SA makes these issues priorities, and there are SA members in leadership positions in the movements.

On the section on splits, I suggest re-naming it something like "Organizational History", or something along those lines. Right now it's a list of splits, most of which were very tiny and of little significance (socialist groups of all stripes often suffer from such tiny splits - and if you look at other entries for socialist groups you rarely find this kind of list, no matter how many splits they've had). Since this has been discussed before on this page, I'll be more specific as to why I think this section needs a major re-write. For example, the "Trotskyist Continuity Tendency" split was a tiny affair - it may have been significant for those in in that tendency, but it hardly was a defining moment for SA. A husband and wife team split for the Socialist Workers Party and joined SA. They then split from SA and joined the Bulletin In Defense of Marxism/Labor Standard current, before splitting from them and starting their own magazine (Revolutionary Marxism Today), which no longer exists. And there have been other tiny splits of that order in SA's history. The point is some splits are listed and some aren't. Some of the splits listed represented a sizable minority of the group's membership, and some did not. And there isn't any context provided about the split. For example, by my study of SA's history, the majority (though not all) of SA's splits were the result of failed fusions. SA has had several splits over the years (most during the late 80s/early 90s when the socialist movement was in a lot of turmoil), but its also had several fusions (the Vargaites in 1985, the Barry Sheppard group in the late 80s, a tiny grouping from the Trotskyist League in the 90s, the TCT mentioned above, Leftist Youth in 1997, a small group of ex-Spark members in the late 90s, a Connecticut group and the Labor Standard comrades in 2005-2006, etc.). If one were writing a wiki entry for SA in the early 90s, I could see possibly having a section like this, but these splits are old history and are hardly how most activists who currently come into contact, whether they're friendly or not to SA, would view as defining of the group. Ideally I'd suggest removing this section, or at the very least giving it some balance that reflects that there have been both splits and fusions (after all, the number of people involved in the splits and fusions is almost exactly the same if you tally it up).

Another thing that I think needs changing is the opening sentence in the "Splits" section. Right now it reads "The history of Socialist Action has been one of factionalism and marginality despite the roots the group has within the workers movement." Defining a group as factional and marginal are POV, in my opinion. This should be easy to fix, all it needs is some more neutral language.

I'll conclude with a few minor suggestions for improvements. In the beginning of the entry it mentions how SA has recruited a layer of youth since 2001. Not sure why that year was used. I joined SA in 1997, and brought with me a group of students from Northland College. That marked the beginning of SA's recruitment of youth (SA has always had young members, but by the mid-90s the majority of the group was middle aged). Today SA is majority youth. And while this recruitment of young people began in the upper-Midwest, there are more SA youth in places like Connecticut. Perhaps we should drop the reference to the upper-Midwest, or mention that SA's youth membership now spreads from coast to coast.

It also seemed odd to me that in the "Origins" section it says that SA developed differences with the leadership of the Fourth International in 1992. SA led an opposition current at the 1992 World Congress of the FI, but SA has had differences with the FI leadership almost since it's founding. SA looks back at the Lenistist-Trotskyist Faction of the FI of the 1970s as its heritage, and while the FI majority and LTF faction fight formally ended in the late 70s, the central point of contention - the question of building Trotskyist parties in every country - re-emerged in the mid-1980s when the FI leadership's resolutions started advocating left regroupment. This is a minor point, since 1992 was an important date in this long running disagreement, but it wasn't the beginning of it.

Anyway, that's it for now. I don't mean to come across as hostile or bossy. I appreciate the work that has gone into this entry so far. But I do feel it needs some work. I'm curious to hear what others think, and will hold off on making any changes until I get some feedback. -Adam R. Wainosunrise (talk) 21:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Youth for Socialist Action
Youth for Socialist Action (YSA) is a nation-wide youth group associated with Socialist Action who's program is based around 10 points of unity :

"1. We stand for workers' democracy & socialism. We are active partisans in the class struggle!" "2. We fight against racism in all its forms. We are supporters of Black and Chicano liberation, full sovereignty for American Indians, and we defend the right of self-determination of all oppressed nationalities."

"3. We are opposed to any and all discrimination based on gender or sexual orientation. We support equal rights for all!" "4. We fight to protect the environment from the ravages of capitalism."

"5. We fight to empower young people, on campus, in the community, and in the workplace."

"6. We fight against police brutality, and any measures by the state to take away or restrict our democratic rights."

"7. We stand for free quality education for all, from pre-school to graduate school."

"8. We denounce imperialism, and oppose all U.S. foreign interventions, regardless of the given justification." "9. We denounce the U.S. embargo against Cuba, and stand in solidarity with the Cuban people & their revolution."

"10. We advocate independent working class political action. Break from pro-business politics!"

The goal of the organization is "of recruiting and educating young revolutionaries. We don't feel it's enough to simply be an activist. Nor is it enough to simply read a lot of books and study political theory. You need both - and being both educated in political theory, and active in the struggles against capitalism, is what being a revolutionary is all about!"

This two-tier goal has lead the Youth for Socialist Action into the leadership into various committees and struggles. Most recently, the YSA at Central Connecticut State University played a central role in the defense of Marissa Blaszko, the Opinion Editor of the campus paper who was fired for her affiliation with YSA. The following semester, the group worked with black, Latino, GLBT and other clubs and sororities on campus in defense of a Kenyan student who was harassed by the university's cross country team and victimized by the university. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.89.13.192 (talk) 22:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Socialist Action (United States)


text:
Dance with My Father (album)

Dance with My Father is the thirteenth and final studio album by American R&B/soul singer Luther Vandross. It was released by J Records on June 10, 2003 in the United States and served as the follow-up to his self-titled studio album (2001). The album, especially its title track, was dedicated to Vandross's late father and features production credits from Nat Adderley Jr., Shep Crawford, and Marcus Miller as well as guest appearances by singer Beyoncé, R&B trio Next, and rappers Foxy Brown, Queen Latifah, and Busta Rhymes.

Upon its release, Dance with My Father debuted atop the US Billboard 200 chart with first week sales of 442,000 units, becoming his first and only album to do so. It also marked his eighth and first album in the twelve years to top the Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart. Critically acclaimed, Dance with My Father earned Vandross two American Music Awards in the Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist and the Favorite Soul/R&B Album categories as well as four Grammy Awards wins out of five nominations, including Song of the Year and Best Male R&B Vocal Performance for "Dance with My Father", Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocals for "The Closer I Get to You", his duet with Beyoncé, and Best R&B Album.

Critical reception
Dance with My Father was released to generally positive reviews from music critics. In his review for Allmusic, David Jeffries summed that "Dance with My Father isn't able to maintain the high standards it often achieves, but Vandross' voice is always compelling and the background singers live up to the superior arrangements throughout. With nearly 70 minutes of music on the disc to choose from, more savvy listeners will be able to program their CD players for a more focused and rewarding listen." He rated the album four out of five stars. Writing for The Guardian, Adam Sweeting declared the album "one of Vandross's very finest recordings." He found that "always a class act, a kind of top-of-the-range Lexus among soulmen, Vandross has clung to his traditional strengths – lush melodies and artful arrangements, sung with that elegantly beseeching voice – while incorporating some discreet nods to modernity."

Track listing
Sample credits
 * "Lovely Day (Part II)" contains excerpts from the composition "Say Yeah" as performed by The Commodores.

Personnel
Adapted from AllMusic.

 * Nat Adderley Jr. – arranger, keyboards, piano, producer, string arrangements
 * Tawatha Agee – background vocals
 * Sanford Allen – concert master
 * Alli – art direction
 * June Ambrose – stylist
 * Skip Anderson – arranger, keyboards, programming, soloist, vibraphone
 * Ray Bardani – engineer, mixing, string engineer
 * Beyoncé – primary artist
 * Big Bub – background vocals
 * Jeff Bova – sound design
 * Al Brown – string contractor
 * Al Brown & His Tunetoppers – string contractor
 * Foxy Brown – featured artist, guest artist, vocals
 * Sharon Bryant – background vocals
 * Busta Rhymes – featured artist, guest artist, vocals
 * Shep Crawford – instrumentation, producer
 * Carl Cyrius – assistant engineer
 * Jason Dale – assistant engineer
 * Jill Dell'Abate – production coordination
 * DJ Kay Gee – remix producer
 * James Ervin – choreographer
 * Jim Ervin – choreographer
 * Eddie F. – remix producer
 * Paul J. Falcone – vocal engineer, vocal recording
 * Phil Hamilton – guitar
 * Reggie Hamilton – bass
 * Ivan Hampden – arranger, drum programming, drums, keyboard programming
 * Cissy Houston – guest artist, background vocals
 * Loren Howard – mixing assistant
 * Roger Innocent – hair stylist
 * Michael J – background vocals
 * Paul Jackson Jr. – guitar
 * Brion James – guitar
 * Chris James – piano
 * Joyce James – performer, background vocals
 * Bashiri Johnson – percussion
 * Jeff Jones – hair stylist, make-Up
 * Beyoncé Knowles – primary artist
 * Chris LeBeau – art producer, artwork
 * Darren Lighty – remix producer
 * Richard Marx – drum programming, keyboard programming
 * Michael McCoy – assistant engineer
 * Rick McDonald – background vocals
 * Daniel Milazzo – assistant engineer
 * Byron Miller – bass
 * Marcus Miller – arranger, drum programming, engineer, keyboard programming, producer, background vocals
 * Claudius Mittendorfer – assistant engineer
 * Cindy Mizelle – background vocals
 * Robbie Nevil – guitar, keyboards
 * Flip Osman – assistant engineer
 * April Owens – group member, performer, background vocals
 * Dave Perini – assistant engineer
 * James Porte – arranger, drum programming, keyboard programming
 * Herb Powers Jr. – mastering
 * Queen Latifah – featured artist, guest artist, primary artist, vocals
 * Jerome Ramos – bass
 * Rex Rideout – arranger, drum programming, keyboard programming
 * RL – background vocals
 * Matt Snedecor – assistant engineer
 * Jason Stasium – assistant engineer
 * Max Szadek – assistant, personal assistant
 * Candace Thomas – group member, performer, background vocals
 * Fonzi Thornton –  vocal contractor, background vocals
 * Luther Vandross –  executive producer, primary artist, producer, vocal arrangement, vocals, background vocals
 * Gabriel Varde – engineer, tracking
 * Víctor Vega – guitar
 * Reed Vertelney – arranger, drum programming, keyboard programming
 * Jamie Wallace – assistant engineer
 * Stan Wallace – engineer
 * Rick Watford – guitar
 * Ricky Watford "Bishop" – guitar
 * Kevin Westenberg – photography
 * Brenda White-King – background vocals
 * James "D-Train" Williams – background vocals
 * Jay Williams – guitar
 * Stevie Wonder – guest artist, harmonica, soloist
 * "You Can Ask" Giz – engineer, mixing

Award

 * rowspan="2" | 2003 || rowspan="2" | American Music Award || Favorite Soul/R&B Album || Won
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist || Won
 * rowspan="13" | 2004 || BET Awards || Best Male R&B Artist ||
 * rowspan="5" | Grammy Award || Song of the Year || Won
 * Best Male R&B Vocal Performance || Won
 * Best R&B Song ||
 * Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocals || Won
 * Best R&B Album || Won
 * rowspan="4" | NAACP Image Awards || Outstanding Album || Won
 * Outstanding Male Artist || Won
 * Outstanding Music Video || Won
 * Outstanding Song || Won
 * rowspan="3" | Soul Train Music Awards || Best Album of the Year ||
 * Best R&B/Soul Album – Male ||
 * Best R&B/Soul Single – Male || Won
 * 2005 || Soul Train Music Awards || Best R&B/Soul Single – Group, Band or Duo ||
 * }
 * rowspan="4" | NAACP Image Awards || Outstanding Album || Won
 * Outstanding Male Artist || Won
 * Outstanding Music Video || Won
 * Outstanding Song || Won
 * rowspan="3" | Soul Train Music Awards || Best Album of the Year ||
 * Best R&B/Soul Album – Male ||
 * Best R&B/Soul Single – Male || Won
 * 2005 || Soul Train Music Awards || Best R&B/Soul Single – Group, Band or Duo ||
 * }
 * Best R&B/Soul Album – Male ||
 * Best R&B/Soul Single – Male || Won
 * 2005 || Soul Train Music Awards || Best R&B/Soul Single – Group, Band or Duo ||
 * }
 * 2005 || Soul Train Music Awards || Best R&B/Soul Single – Group, Band or Duo ||
 * }
 * }

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Dance with My Father (album)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pocket Mumias

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Woohookitty 11:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Pocket Mumias
The term is so non-notable as to merit not a single Google hit; delete. Dvyost 02:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Not only is it nn, it's patently offensive. Delete. For the reference, see Mumia Abu Jamal. RasputinAXP   talk  *  contribs  02:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. nn, and not clever enough by half. BD2412  talk 02:49, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable, not verifiable anyway ("some underground circles" notwithstanding) --W.marsh 03:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * FREE MUMIAS (to be deleted). Non-notable at best, likely unverifiable, possible hoax. Lord Bob 05:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete Mumia himself coined this phrase in an effort to get the youth to continue the movement for his release. He said it live on Larry King in December 2001. --Hubris 10:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm going to let my idea of the plausibility of your story slide for a moment, and say simply this. The CNN transcripts page showing Larry King's programs since January 1, 2000 does not mention any such interview. I don't have time to look through the couple dozen transcripts for December 2001 to check this statement out, but if you could point out which day the broadcast occured we could all have a gander and that would be nice and verified. Howzat sound? Lord Bob 14:53, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Due to the inherently controversial nature of the discussion (and because of the highly sensitive and continuing litigation in the case), the transcripts from December 18, 2001 were destroyed by CNN. User:NoDisassemble 22:35, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Comment Said user vandalized Mumia Abu Jamal last night, and has history of vandalizing articles and defending previous hoax articles on AfD; see Articles for deletion/Pocket Tubmans. RasputinAXP   talk  *  contribs  14:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete I remember the similar Pocket Tubmans nonsense as well. With that in mind, this could probably be speedied as vandalism. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd  16:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and discussion above Justin Bacon 00:41, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn. Amren (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete Doyle Brunson used this term on a World Poker Tour tournament in 1999. He was fined and reprimanded by WPT officials. --FatherSkeel 21:56, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Above user is also a constant vandal; Not entirely convinced FatherSkeel and Hubris are not sock puppets of each other. RasputinAXP   talk  *  contribs  23:40, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * FatherSkeel's claim is a flat-out lie, anyway - I know this because I was in that 1999 World Poker Tour tournament right up to the last round, and I sat next to good ol' Doyle the entire time, and never once did he utter such a thing. Ok, I just made all that up, but it's equally plausible. :-) BD2412  talk 06:27, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * BD, weren't you the second gunman on the grassy knoll, too? ;) RasputinAXP   talk  *  contribs  15:03, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Because it's not acceptable to talk about a poker hand that could possibly be construed as defamatory, but it's perfectly okay to joke about the murder of one of America's great figures. Makes sense. --FatherSkeel 02:11, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The key difference is that Kennedy's assassination actually happened, unlike the popular usage of this term. Lord Bob 05:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * World War II actually happened...does that make it acceptable to joke about it? If you read the definition closely, it talked about the term being used in "underground circies." Nowhere did it say this term was in popular usage. Perhaps you should read things more closely before making such outlandish statements. --FatherSkeel 20:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The article is utterly unverifiable, and the attempts to justify it above have proven to be either a bald-faced lie, or another statement that cannot be verified. If it is in use in underground circles, said circles are so far underground that the term might as well not exist. Lord Bob 01:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Raspustin, to be perfectly honest, im offended by your statement. JFK was a good man and you feel the need to mock the highest elected official in the land?  If you take down this article, which is a factual statement of what many people use in Texas Hold'em Philosophy in today's 21st century, you might as well take the pages down for JFK, Lee Harvey Oswold and the entire city of Dallas for which you mock so readily.  I hope that you not only get banned from wikipedia for this classless statement, but are banned from whatever ISP gives you access to the information super highway.  --Hubris 20:35, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Now this is starting to sound like that US Miller vs. Bud commerical: "This is a travesty! It's a sham! It's a mockery...it's a...a...a TRAVASHAMOCKERY!" That aside, you want to argue about this with me, take it to my talk page and stop cluttering up an AfD trying to defend a patently unencyclopediac statement. To even try and use a red herring to obscure the arguement is ridiculous. RasputinAXP   talk  *  contribs  01:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Go to a poker game in Mobile, Alabama and let me know if they don't throw the term around liberally. Then you can say it's utterly unverifiable. FatherSkeel 20:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * See, "having to send a Wikipedian to play poker in that specific Mobile, Alabama underground circle" counts as "functionally unverifiable". Especially when the other attempts at verification are bullshit. Lord Bob 02:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * A look at the edit histories of the two pro votes here shows some interesting similarities in contributions. See a rundown at Articles for deletion/The Man Known as S.  --Dvyost 02:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
User talk:Humble226

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title: User talk:Humble226


text: User:Exir Kamalabadi/EAC

title: User:Exir Kamalabadi/EAC


text:
File:Sinatraswings.jpg

Summary
The cover of the 1961 Frank Sinatra album Sinatra Swings.

title: File:Sinatraswings.jpg


text:
User talk:Seattlelite

Welcome from EWS23
As a fellow Seattlite (I'm currently attending the UW), it is an even greater pleasure to extend you this welcome!

Hello ! My name is Eric, and it is my pleasure to be the first to welcome you to Wikipedia! I hope you will decide to stay a long time and help us continue to make this one of the greatest sites on the world wide web. Here are a few useful links for you to explore: In addition to that great wealth of knowledge, let me offer you this advice: do what you enjoy! If you enjoy contributing to sports articles, do so! If you like to correct typoes (...), write new articles, find better ways to organize articles, make useful templates, work on projects with others, or even welcome new members, do so! A happy member of our community is a productive member of our community. You can read all of the above links to the last word, or you can jump right into editing. Be bold!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
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 * Tutorial
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have the need to sign a page without the time and date, you can use three tildes. If you have any questions that aren't easily found with the above links, check out Where to ask a question. Once again, welcome to Wikipedia and enjoy!

P.S.- If you'd like to introduce yourself to the community and perhaps get a question or two answered in the process, drop us a line at the new user log.

EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 02:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Husky stadium.jpg
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Image tagging for Image:Husky Stadium.jpg
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UW images
Various images you uploaded relating to UW are up for deletion at WP:IFD. Punctured Bicycle 04:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Warrenmoon.jpg)
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title: User talk:Seattlelite


text:
Talk:Lovett College

Image copyright problem with Image:RiceU BlueSealLogo.png
The image Image:RiceU BlueSealLogo.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --20:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I have fixed this issue. Kirlinator (talk) 18:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Morris Almond
Was Morris Almond ever a member of Martel, or was he a Loveteer? Did he transfer? It's a fact that he lived at Martel his senior year.AniRaptor2001 (talk) 16:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

George HW Bush as Master?
I somehow don't think that's true... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.251.138 (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The reference states Bush was an Associate. Alanraywiki (talk) 22:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 22:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lovett College


text:
User talk:Gamerzworld

Zachary Clarke
Good spot. That was actually added in November 2008, there is circumstantial evidence to say the it was made without good intent, but no real smoking gun. The big problem now is that there are hundreds of sites that reference Wikipedia content, so when you type Zachary Clarke GTA into Google you get loads of hits. - X201 (talk) 09:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Request for opinion
Hi Gamerzworld: Sorry to trouble you, but I could not help but notice your expression of affection for TOS on the Wikipedians who like Star Trek: The Original Series page, and so I would be curious of your thoughts on the notability of a Star Trek author for whom I just created a Wikipedia article -- which may be promptly destined for the trash pile. As a newcomer here at Wikipedia, my first article attempt was indeed recommended for deletion within hours of its creation by a senior user named JzG who seems to me to be overly hostile and dismissive of Star Trek, calling it fancruft (= trivial, obscure, of importance to just a tiny group of fanatics). Since you are a Trek fan, if it is also your good faith opinion that my subject is in no way deserving of an article on this site; and you could let me know, I would feel much more comfortable with the justice of the pending deletion action. My proposed article may be seen here, assuming you visit the page soon enough ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gurian Kind Regards. Tosresearcher (talk) 05:40, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

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Rockstar Japan
Hey! I just happened to have stumbled over your discussion "Rockstar Japan" from 2014, and I wished I had seen it earlier, but I do have to say that I 100% agree with your points, as I had recently opened a similar discussion, "Did Rockstar Japan actually exist?", on the Video games WikiProject, which goes very in-depth with the clear non-existence of a company named Rockstar Japan. I would be lovely if you could take part in the discussion of mine, and afterwards help me clean up international Wikipedias off Rockstar Japan articles and references to its articles, as well as the images off Wikimedia Commons and the removal of the Wikidata item. Thanks! (P.S.: I will not watch this page, if you want to reply, please Ping me.) Lordtobi  ( ✉ ) 18:43, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Gamerzworld


text:
User:KurtGbeyer

Hiya Guys, My Names Kurt, and I am the owner of Kurt Beyer Films. I feel comfortable saying I'm a beast. Do view my article Kurt Gunter Beyer.

title: User:KurtGbeyer


text:
Tony Award for Best Featured Actress in a Musical

The Tony Award for Best Performance by a Featured Actress in a Musical is an honor presented at the Tony Awards, a ceremony established in 1947 as the Antoinette Perry Awards for Excellence in Theatre, to actresses for quality featured roles in a musical play, whether a new production or a revival. The awards are named after Antoinette Perry, an American actress who died in 1946.

Honors in several categories are presented at the ceremony annually by the Tony Award Productions, a joint venture of The Broadway League and the American Theatre Wing, to "honor the best performances and stage productions of the previous year."

The award was originally called the Tony Award for Best Performance by an Actress in a Featured or Supporting Role in a Musical. It was first presented to Juanita Hall at the 4th Tony Awards for her portrayal of Bloody Mary in South Pacific. Before 1956, nominees' names were not made public; the change was made by the awards committee to "have a greater impact on theatregoers". The category was renamed to its current title in 1976.

Judy Kaye, Andrea Martin and Audra McDonald share the record for having the most wins in this category, with a total of two. Carrie Pipperidge in Carousel and Marge MacDougall in Promises, Promises are the characters to take the award the most times, winning twice.

Winners and nominees
{{legend|#B0C4DE|indicates the winner}}

Most wins

 * 2 wins
 * Judy Kaye
 * Andrea Martin
 * Audra McDonald

Most nominations
• ; 5 nominations

• Andrea Martin

• ; 4 nominations

• Laura Benanti

• ; 3 nominations

• Victoria Clark

• Judy Kaye

• Jane Krakowski

• Patti LuPone

• Mary Testa

• Karen Ziemba

• ; 2 nominations

• Shoshana Bean

• Tammy Blanchard

• Gretha Boston

• Barbara Cook

• Helen Gallagher

• Jayne Houdyshell

• Cady Huffman

• Nikki M. James

• Patsy Kelly

• Judy Kuhn

• Marcia Lewis

• Priscilla Lopez

• Julienne Marie

• Millicent Martin

• Audra McDonald

• Lindsay Mendez

• Ruthie Ann Miles

• Bebe Neuwirth

• Mary Beth Peil

• Josephine Premice

• Chita Rivera

• Jennifer Simard

• Louise Troy

• Lillias White

• Mary Louise Wilson

Character win total

 * 2 wins
 * Carrie Pipperidge from Carousel
 * Marge MacDougall from Promises, Promises

Character nomination total
• ; 5 nominations

• Louise from Gypsy

• ; 4 nominations

• Fraulein Schneider from Cabaret

• ; 3 nominations

• The Old Lady from Candide

• ; 2 nominations

• Anita from West Side Story

• Aunt Eller from Oklahoma!

• Berthe from Pippin

• Bloody Mary from South Pacific

• Carla Albanese from Nine

• Carrie Pipperidge from Carousel

• Gladys Bumps from Pal Joey

• Gladys Hotchkiss from The Pajama Game

• Hildy Esterhazy from On the Town and Jerome Robbins' Broadway

• Ilona Ritter from She Loves Me

• Jenny from The Threepenny Opera

• Lady of the Lake from Spamalot

• Liliane La Fleur from Nine

• Luisa Contini from Nine

• Madame Armfeldt from A Little Night Music

• Marge MacDougall from Promises, Promises

• Maria from West Side Story

• Nickie from Sweet Charity

• Peggy Sawyer from 42nd Street

• Queenie from Show Boat

• Sarah from Company

• Sofia Johnson from The Color Purple

• Trina from Falsettos

Productions with multiple nominations
boldface=winner • The Sound of Music – Patricia Neway and Lauri Peters, Kathy Dunn, Evanna Lien, Mary Susan Locke, Marilyn Robers, William Snowden & Joseph Stewart

• A Joyful Noise – Leland Palmer and Susan Watson

• Applause – Bonnie Franklin and Penny Fuller

• Company – Barbara Barrie and Pamela Myers

• A Little Night Music – Patricia Elliott and Hermione Gingold

• Candide – Maureen Brennan and June Gable

• A Chorus Line – Kelly Bishop and Priscilla Lopez

• Side by Side by Sondheim – Millicent Martin and Julia McKenzie

• Ain't Misbehavin – Nell Carter' and Charlayne Woodard

• The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas – Carlin Glynn and Joan Ellis

• West Side Story – Debbie Allen and Josie de Guzman

• Nine – Karen Akers, Liliane Montevecchi and Anita Morris

• Quilters – Evalon Baron and Lenka Peterson

• The Mystery of Edwin Drood – Patti Cohenour and Jana Schneider

• Les Misérables – Frances Ruffelle and Judy Kuhn

• Me and My Girl – Jane Connell and Jane Summerhays (Les Misérables and Me and My Girl were nominated the same year)

• Cabaret – Alyson Reed and Regina Resnik

• Jerome Robbins' Broadway – Debbie Gravitte, Jane Lanier and Faith Prince

• The Secret Garden – Daisy Eagan and Alison Fraser

• Smokey Joe's Cafe – Brenda Braxton, B.J. Crosby and DeLee Lively

• Contact – Deborah Yates and Karen Ziemba

• Swing! – Laura Benanti and Ann Hampton Callaway (Contact and Swing! were nominated the same year)

• 42nd Street – Kate Levering and Mary Testa

• Nine – Jane Krakowski, Mary Stuart Masterson and Chita Rivera (This is the second time the show had multiple nominations)

• The Boy from Oz – Beth Fowler and Isabel Keating

• The Color Purple – Felicia P. Fields and Elisabeth Withers

• Billy Elliot the Musical – Haydn Gwynne and Carole Shelley

• Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown – Laura Benanti and Patti LuPone

• Fun Home – Judy Kuhn, Sydney Lucas and Emily Skeggs

• Carousel – Renée Fleming and Lindsay Mendez

• Oklahoma! – Ali Stroker and Mary Testa

• Tootsie – Lilli Cooper and Sarah Stiles (Oklahoma! and Tootsie were nominated the same year)

• Jagged Little Pill – Kathryn Gallagher, Celia Rose Gooding and Lauren Patten

• Company – Patti LuPone and Jennifer Simard (This is the second time the show had multiple nominations)

• Hell's Kitchen – Shoshana Bean and Kecia Lewis

Multiple awards and nominations

 * Actresses who have been nominated multiple times in any acting categories


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucero

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Woohookitty 11:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Lucero (band)
Band with no assertion of notability. -- SCZenz 02:40, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete as per nom. --Dvyost 02:49, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom. TheMadBaron 02:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Allmusic knows their name but has no bio. Delete unless shown to meet WP:MUSIC guidelines.  Friday (talk) 14:37, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, their allmusic page shows that they have 3 albums on 2 smallish indie labels, which doesn't quite get them in under WP:MUSIC. Mallocks 16:40, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lucero


text: User:Exir Kamalabadi/EAG

title: User:Exir Kamalabadi/EAG


text:
Scott Mercado

Scott Mercado (born c. 1964) was the original drummer of Sky Cries Mary and co-founder of the Seattle rock group Candlebox, a band reunited in 2006 with a "Best of" CD, live DVD (Alive in Seattle, 2007), and a latest CD called Into the Sun, released January 2008. With over 5 million CDs sold, Candlebox continues to tour and record around the United States and the world. Mercado has also performed with Johnny Graham (Earth, Wind & Fire), Living Colour, Brandi Carlile. Known for his blend of jazz drumming elements in rock and roll and use of the open-handed drumming technique. Voted best Up and Coming drummer in Modern Drummer magazine. He currently resides in Seattle as a studio drummer and private drum instructor.

With Candlebox

 * Candlebox (1993)
 * Lucy (1995)
 * The Best of Candlebox (2006)
 * Into The Sun (2008)
 * Alive In Seattle (2008)

With Brandi Carlile

 *  We're Growing Up (2003)

title: Scott Mercado


text:
Talk:Television in the Republic of Ireland

Most-viewed channels by broadcaster (IRL)
I removed this section as it would need to be updated on a monthly bases along with monthly viewing figures. RTÉ News Now figure is interesting as I don't believe that it is publicly available, I have certainly never seen it. To save time I have placed it here in talk.

RTÉ (Raidió Teilifís Éireann)

TV3 Media

UTV Media

TG4

Setanta Sports

MTV Ireland ==A subset of the UK market== While the intro was perhaps too North America heavy (note it's author, me, is an Australian), I still feel something needs to be said about the Irish TV market effectively being a subset of the UK market, and why this is the case.

The situation in Ireland is similar to that in Canada, and those familiar with the Canadian situation (and not with the Irish one) would benefit from the mentioning of this simularity.

matturn 02:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think thats covered well in the Media in Ireland page, lists rarely have heavy intros either. --Kiand 15:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

southcoast and ch5?!
I live in Cork and i've never heard of South Coast TV! I know of South Coast, but all they do is provide BBC1, BBC2, HTV and Ch4 to the area. Also with the addition of Channel 6 it begs the question... where is 5? Ablaze 16:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone added it, I left it in there as I know that some deflector systems (RLO for instance) used to do unofficial opt-outs, but googleing around suggested that it might not exist.
 * As goes C6 - good question. I doubt Five would be too happy if they called themselves "Channel 5", though.
 * Is there a Irish Channel called Five? Ablaze 17:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, but there is Five, who have begun to hire people to work on an Irish advertising region and launch on cable, and who would be quite protective of their trading names - the company is still called Channel 5 Television. --Kiand 17:28, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Similar to what Sky and E4 have done i guess!Ablaze 16:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I would say it is unlikely that Five or Channel 5 would want to protect their trade name in Ireland it isn't as available here as other channels. Also Channel 6 could have easily named themselves TV5 or 5TV or Network 5 to avoid confusions with either French of UK television channels. There are plenty of TV3's around the world. I would say 3e is named 3e rather than e3 to avoid association with e4. Also Setanta Ireland was the 5th Licence. IrishTV (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

RTÉ News Now
I've added a bit about RTÉ News Now under the forthcomming stations section, but does anyone think it should be included in the box detailing existing RoI stations, or should it be kept for stations that are currently received on television? Donegal92 (talk) 20:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure. It is available on DTT. But weather they will keep it when DTT is launched is another question. IrishTV (talk) 14:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Cable Television in Ireland
I have added a new article Cable Television in Ireland, please let me know what you think, thanks IrishTV (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Naming
This article needs to be changed to make it clear when it is talking about the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Living in Ireland myself, I even get confused reading the text! Ireland can mean either the Republic of Ireland or the island itself (which includes both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland). Northern Ireland is part of the UK (and hence TV is regulated under UK law, they get the BBC, get UK Freeview, pay UK TV licensing fees etc..) whilst the Republic of Ireland (Ireland (English) or Eire (Irish)) is a separate sovereign state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.106.173 (talk) 00:18, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Split
I propose to split this article into a Television Northern Ireland and Televison in Ireland as both countries have different channels almost and television is not an All-Ireland thing C. 22468 (talk) 20:11, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

There already is a Television in Northern Ireland page. Most of the stuff on this page relates to the Republic, but you could take out some NI content.

82.132.214.110 (talk) 09:26, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It is worth noting that broadcasts from Northern Ireland were available to a sizeable chunk of the population of the Republic when Telifís Éireann was still a twinkle in the eye of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.134.226.254.178 (talk) 10:57, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Years in Irish television
I'd like to float the idea of creating some Years in Irish television articles, along similar lines to the ones relating to American, British and Canadian television. Basically this would involve listing important television events for each year, significant programmes which were on air, channels which came into existence, and so on. I collated together lots of stuff on British television for those articles a couple of years ago, and it has grown into a useful reference so I think the same could happen here. My proposal is to focus on events in the Republic, but Northern Ireland could be included as well if there is consensus for that. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts people may have on this, and if there are no major objections I'll make a start on this in a few weeks. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:55, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually there is one already, 1976 in Irish television which was created in 2005, so there shouldn't be a problem. I'll still hold off for a while before doing any others though just in case anyone does want to comment. Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And though that article lacks information, I'm sure some can be added. A timeline of events relating to Broadcasting suggests at least two related events for 1976. Paul MacDermott (talk) 13:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Think I'm going to make a start, especially as we have one of these already. Paul MacDermott (talk) 13:02, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * All articles now created. Will continue to expand them over the coming weeks, but feel free to help. Paul MacDermott (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Article needs update
The article refers to future implementation dates that are now a year or more in the past. These require to be updated, stating the actual dates achieved, of which I have no knowledge. GilesW (talk) 00:07, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Irish television, 1959-1961
The article currently states: "In Ireland television first became available in 1959. The public service broadcaster, RTÉ Television, opened in 1961 ...." Who was broadcasting television in the Republic of Ireland from 1959 to 1961 before RTÉ (or its predecessor) started? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:07, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Television broadcasts originating and broadcast from within the Republic of Ireland did not start until the end of 1961. As the article correctly notes elsewhere, the first broadcasts from within Northern Ireland (and thus from anywhere within the island of Ireland as a whole) were from the BBC in 1953.  These were from a temporary transmitter at Glencairn, followed by a move to the permanent transmitter at Divis in 1955.   The only way that 1959 comes into the picture as a "first" is in being the year that ITV (Independent Television) in the form of Ulster TV opened in Northern Ireland from the Black Mountain transmitter.

 * However, as also noted in the article, many people in eastern parts of both the Republic and Northern Ireland were able to receive broadcasts from the U.K. transmitters in England before then.  (Which is why Telefis Eireann initially broadcast using the 405-line system in those areas, since many people already had British TV sets, whereas in western areas broadcasts started on the 625-line system.)

 * As the statement "In Ireland television first became available in 1959" is misleading since it matches up with neither the first availability or the first broadcast from within either the Republic or Northern Ireland, I'm going to remove it completely. 87.115.191.12 (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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Merging 19xx into Television in the Republic of Ireland
A series of articles, based on an details contained in https://www.rte.ie/archives, can be merged. The first step is to merge the individual 1960s articles into one modeled on 1950s in Irish television, named 1960s in Irish television. Since the major source appears to be a single source for the various articles, the success of this will probably depend on a mix of formatting and trimming. This is not to say that the 1950s article is the entire basis; there's also the matter of the level of detail in other articles that can be summarized, with details moved here. Pi314m (talk) 03:06, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Having done 1960s, interim next step: 1970s, ... 2010s Pi314m (talk) 05:59, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The merge I see in 1960s in Irish television isn't what I'd call "done". Will you be finishing it up soon? Some things to consider:
 * fix duplicate reference definitions
 * use only one "references" section
 * only one "see also" section, too
 * Fix "list of years in Irish Television" navigation box
 * I'm also a little worried that there was no consensus for this merge. Where was it discussed previously? Other countries have year-by-year articles; why does Ireland have decade-by-decade articles? -- Mikeblas (talk) 18:42, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I know we're encouraged to be bold but I'm also a bit concerned about this since there was no discussion as far as I can tell, and a major change like this really requires consensus. The 1950s article comes about because there was no television in Ireland during that decade but preparations were underway for its arrival, so that needed to be reflected somewhere. Whether that model should then be rolled out to decades when television was an existing and expanding presence, and consequently buck the trend of related articles, is something that needs further evaluation. This is Paul (talk) 19:39, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I've mentioned this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television. This is Paul (talk) 21:14, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

 * I support the merger of small TV year articles into TV decade articles for most countries pre-1990s. However, especially if you plan to do this for the UK or US and/or other years, I think you should open a thread at WP:TV and document your plans and actions, so that others can step in for the grey zones. – sgeureka t•c 09:04, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm neutral about this. But if the work is going to be done, it should be done correctly. The merges I'm seeing now are just blind copy-paste without any consolidation of repeated sections. Edits should make the encyclopedia better, not worse. -- Mikeblas (talk) 15:28, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Thinking about it more, I oppose the merger. The merged articles are large and cumbersome; I think it's far more natural to have each year instead of each decade. Each year also seems to be the status quo for many different types of articles. -- Mikeblas (talk) 17:48, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

 * (Interim) note(s): (1)I didn't use the IN_USE template since I had intervals exceeding the (2 hours) guideline. I fully agree that I need to make the overall guideline of making things better, not worse. (2) While building the (interim) decade#_in_Irish_television 	it seems obvious that the focus of the initial post-interim-merge edits should focus on consolidate, WP/NotTVGuide trim. Sorry if for the moment it looks like (...) (3) The present focus on Ireland is based on some up-to-a-decade old comments on other talk pages,  Pi314m (talk) 17:15, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 * While it makes sense to merge some of the smaller articles from earlier years, I fear you've been too overenthusiastic with this project, particularly by merging the 2010s articles, which has resulted in the creation of something that will be very cumbersome to view and edit. Far from improving them you've done what can only be described as a botch job. As you mention in your all too brief notes, you're working from comments that are up to a decade old but you haven't provided examples of these or linked to them so nobody knows what they actually say. I also have concerns that WP:NOTTVGUIDE has been misinterpreted since the articles were built on the model of existing content. This is why major changes like these require discussion before being undertaken, and while I've no doubt you've acted in good faith, I will be proposing that some of this is reverted. My own thoughts would be to keep the pre-1990s or 2000s stuff as decades articles then split the rest back into their separate years and that's what I'll be suggesting. This is Paul (talk) 22:55, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Having gone 60s to 2010s FIFO, will do LIFO (but) beginning 2000s. For now, I will leave the 2010s all-in-1 in a less than ideal state, at least until I've done what I owe on 2000s, 1990s, 1980s, ... This is neither to agree nor disagree re splitting 2010s. Pi314m (talk) 02:45, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

 * — I ran across these articles working on the backlog in Category:Pages with duplicate reference names, before I ran across this discussion. Noticing the shape they were in from the merges, I boldly cleaned them up — separated into years, one see also section, one references section, one navbar, fixed ref issues. My opinion is the 60s to 90s articles are fine as is, with maybe some minor tweaks. One thing I did notice was that in some years (not all) in those articles, there was an Ongoing television programmes section, which I think could probably be combined into one section for each article to reduce redundancy, just a thought. I am neutral on the split/merge of the 2000s article and the 2010s article, the only one I didn't edit after finding this discussion. Thoughts on the cleanup? If anyone wants to revert back to the previous versions, I certainly won't mind, and I'll leave the cleanup to others. Isaidnoway (talk)  15:53, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
 * 1960s in Irish television
 * 1970s in Irish television
 * 1980s in Irish television
 * 1990s in Irish television
 * 2000s in Irish television

Split proposal for 2010s in Irish television
I have opened a discussion on this topic that can be found here. Please feel free to comment. This is Paul (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Colour?
When and how was colour introduced? This needs to be added to the article as that's what I came on here to look up.Romomusicfan (talk) 13:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ - If you want something sorting, you gotta do it yourself! Romomusicfan (talk) 13:27, 25 May 2021 (UTC)


text:
Piano Sonata No. 15 (Mozart)

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's Piano Sonata No. 15 in F major, KV 533/494 (finished 3 January 1788) is a sonata in three movements:

1. Allegro

2. Andante in B♭ major

3. Rondo: Allegretto

A typical performance takes about 23 minutes.

The Rondo was originally a stand-alone piece composed by Mozart in 1786 (Rondo No. 2, K. 494 in the Köchel catalogue). In 1788, Mozart wrote the first two movements of K. 533 and incorporated a revised version of K. 494 as the finale, having lengthened it in order to provide a more substantial counterpart to the other two movements.

Other arrangements
Edvard Grieg arranged this sonata for 2 pianos, by adding further accompaniment on the secondo part, whilst the primo part plays the original. This attempt to "impart to several of Mozart's sonatas a tonal effect appealing to our modern ears" serves to document the taste of Grieg's late nineteenth-century Norwegian audience. A notable recording is that of Elisabeth Leonskaja accompanied by Sviatoslav Richter.

title: Piano Sonata No. 15 (Mozart)


text: Talk:Piano Sonata No. 15 (Mozart)

title: Talk:Piano Sonata No. 15 (Mozart)


text:
Gladys Root

Gladys Towles Root (September 9, 1905 – December 21, 1982) was a criminal defense attorney in Los Angeles. Root specialized in sexual assault and murder cases, partly because those were the only clients available to a woman attorney at the time and partly because few other lawyers wanted to defend them.

Early life
Root was the second daughter of Clara Dexter Towles and Charles Towles of Los Angeles. She was born in 1905 and grew up in comfortable surroundings.

There were very few women practicing law when Root graduated from USC School of Law in 1930. Root was unable to obtain employment and decided to open her own practice. Gladys Towles Root opened her office at 212 South Hill Street, Los Angeles California, the former location of the Rainbow Saloon.

Root became a defense attorney for rape and murder cases. She became so skilled that by the early 1960s young prosecutors and defense attorneys would gather to watch her cross-examination of prosecuting witnesses.

Legal career
At age 25, Root defended her first client, Louis Osuna, in a murder trial. Osuna had hired Root to get a quick divorce from his wife but then, frustrated with the legal system, shot and killed his wife the next day. Root defended him in the murder trial and convinced the jury to convict him of manslaughter rather than first-degree murder. Afterward, Osuna introduced her to other inmates interested in her services.

In 1931, she successfully argued for a Filipino man and a Caucasian woman's right to marry, which was at that time illegal in the state of California. The law was declared unconstitutional. Root served as president of the Southern California Women Lawyers in 1945. At the height of her career, Root was handling 1,600 cases per year and averaging 75 court appearances per month. In July 1964 an indictment was issued against Gladys by the Federal Grand Jury in connection with her actions during her defense of one of the defendants in the kidnapping case of Frank Sinatra, Jr., the teenage son of Frank Sinatra. Three men had kidnapped Frank Sinatra Jr. from across the California-Nevada state line at Lake Tahoe and transported him to Los Angeles. The kidnappers collected $240,000 ransom. Gladys was hired to defend one of the kidnappers, John William Irwin. Charges were brought against Gladys based on her allegedly fabricating the story that the young singer concocted the kidnapping for publicity reasons. Gladys was indicted in 1964 on charges of conspiracy, suborning perjury, and obstruction of justice. The charges were dropped in 1968.

Root fought with the Internal Revenue Service, beginning in the 1970s. The IRS contended that she owed more than $230,000 in back taxes when interest and penalties were included. She fought the judgment and lost in the federal appeals court in 1977. She attempted to appeal to the United States Supreme Court, but the highest court in the land refused to hear the case.

She presented a flamboyant figure in the courtroom and was referred to as the "Lady in Purple." She was especially known for colorful hair and the large, dramatic hats she wore to court.

Personal life
In 1929, she married sheriff’s Deputy Frank Root, with whom she had a son. They divorced in 1941, and in 1943 she married Jay C. Geiger, with whom she had a daughter in 1944.

On Tuesday, December 21, 1982, while in Los Angeles Superior Court, Pomona, defending one of two brothers accused of rape, Root suffered a heart attack; collapsed into the arms of her protégé David Brockway, who was defending the other brother; and died at age 77. Root was buried at Forest Lawn Glendale.

title: Gladys Root


text:
User talk:Jimanderton

Your user name
Please consider changing your user name. I'm quite sure that you are not Jim Anderton, the New Zealand politician, but as you have edited New Zealand political articles, someone might be fooled into thinking you are. Wikipedia's username policy discourages usernames which "pass off" as notable people. See Username. This is only a polite request, not a demand.-gadfium 02:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Hellclark.jpg
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title: User talk:Jimanderton


text:
Talk:ISO 8583

Credit and debit cards
This standard defines the messages used in electronic processing of credit and debit card transactions. --60.229.85.178 12:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)Jonnosan

Deleting section on companies with ISO products
I'm proposing deleting this section. There must be hundreds of companies with these products, and it's not encyclopedic to list them here. Actually, I'm going further than proposing deleting this section. I'm deleting it. If there are any objections, discuss them here, or put it back if you must. Zaian 22:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine with me -- I started the section, but it's kind of grown too much... Nathan Beach 15:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Advices
What are those Advices used for? I understand the requests and responses, but I have no idea, what the advices are needed for. An example would be helpful. --jpp 13:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * For example (someone else correct me if I'm wrong), when a decision is made by an authorizer for a transaction to be reversed at the acquirer side of an authorization point, an advice message is sent to the issuer notifying it of the reversed transaction. This is in order to let the issuer know to adjust its settlement totals.  Or something like that.  The main point being that no response is required from the recipient (it's just some good advice)   --nathanbeach   07:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * For example, advices are used by MasterCard when performing stand-in authorization. When standing in for the normal processor, MasterCard sends an advice to the actual processor. This advice can be responded to or ignored. Pieterpoorthuis 10:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Advices are operations that doesn’t need an verification (approval) to be effective, ex if the system advice to annulet a transaction the server side should absolutely revert it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.204.239.194 (talk) 16:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Advices are used to "advise" and Issuer that they have to affect their books for a txn that was approved by an authorized 3rd party on their behalf becuase of "any" issue that caused a timeout. (authorized 3rd party= has a balance/credit to do standins) and to keep settlment up to date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.113.11.13 (talk) 00:45, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleted ISO defined data elements
Why has the convenient ISO defined data elements list been removed? Pieterpoorthuis 10:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The ISO-Defined Data Elements table belongs to 1993 version.
I propose that we include in the table the three available versions, 1987, 1993, 2003; but I am not sure if there is a copyright violation involved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.67.139.88 (talk) 22:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I have a doubt on field 60. I've seent it as an .7 field (like it is here) but I have also seen it in 3 other sources with this format: LLLVAR	ans..999, just as 61,62,63...

Would one of these be correct or may it depend on the implementation ? (Marcelr (talk) 16:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC))

Data Elements
The Data Elements section needs work. I tried to clarify wherever the meaning was not clear. But there are several things that are still not clear. It does not make clear whether the data elements are in data-element-type sequence in a message. Since a bit map is used to specify if a data element is present or not, I assume they are in sequence. If so that should be explicitly stated. It does not make clear whether LL and LLL can be a mixture of hex for some data elements and ASCII for other data elements. And if it can be either, what is the format of each byte in LL and LLL? Is it 2-bytes for hex and 3-bytes for ASCII? Or is the length field hex for numeric fields and ASCII for non-numeric fields? It says "if numeric it will be compressed" Compressed as hex (two digits per byte) or binary? Are binary numbers used anywhere in these messages? If not it should say so. What does "or (..xx)" mean, where "xx < 100" ? What does xx mean? Hex-hex? Does it mean 100 hex or 100 decimal? It says LL can be 1 or 2 bytes, but doesn't say whether that is determined by the data element type or whether there is some other indicator. It doesn't say whether VAR always begins on a byte boundary or whether VAR can share a byte with LL. It used to say "23x means there are 23 elements to follow" but that cannot possibly be true (not 23 different account numbers in the same message). I changed it to "23x means there are 23 VAR bytes to follow." i.e. 23 hex means there are 23 (decimal) bytes to follow. It says "if numeric it will be compressed" and then gives an example of LL = 87 represented by byte '87x. But what if "it" means a variable length numeric data field, for example data element 34 (extended primary account number)? If it means that both LL and the variable length data field will be compressed, and both are in hex with 2 digits per byte, it should say so. The field length and the data field should be described separately and I did so. Greensburger (talk) 00:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Data element 41
Data element 41 is listed as having type ans 16; however, the information available at http://www.cooboy.com/program/body_iso8583.htm indicates the type to be of ans 8. I do not have an official ISO 8583 specification available to me, so I don't know which one is correct; I am merely pointing out the discrepancy so someone with access to the specification can hopefully confirm if it's correct or not.--Iitywybmad (talk) 19:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

 * This site is no longer active - see the archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20140222200727/http://www.cooboy.com:80/program/body_iso8583.htm
 * For the 1993 version it is.
 * For 2003 it is . JoSSte (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Wus up 72.24.196.147 (talk) 13:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussing several versions
ISO 8583 exists in three different versions (:1987 :1993 :2003) at the time of writing (with a fourth not yet established) I have edited a section (on field 22 (POS Code)), splitting it up into three subsections, one for each of the three... I am unsure if this is the smartest approach JoSSte (talk) 13:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

200335
200335 111.92.131.53 (talk) 17:02, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Bsek. Rollno 560
Noman Toffique  09 103.26.83.46 (talk) 12:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:ISO 8583